Broken church windows
The July/August issue of Touchstone features an editorial by Anthony Esolen that got me to thinking about broken church windows. I don’t mean literal broken windows; I’m referring as Esolen does to the now familiar broken-window theory, which suggests in a nutshell that when citizens and authorities let little things slip (e.g., a broken window), soon bigger and bigger things will slip. A broken window is not only more common in drug-addled neighborhoods, but may well be, through the long series of events and decisions that produce culture, a contributing factor as well.
Esolen applies this primarily to schools, but he offers this intriguing aside about churches:
“For several decades the hierarchs of our churches — men who have assumed the responsibility for governing their people — have failed to discipline those who in some way deny the faith of their church’s confessions, or ignore the disciplines, or modify the worship to please the secular, or encourage their people to discard those parts of the Christian moral teaching, usually having to do with zippers, they may find ‘unrealistic’ or ‘outdated.’”
By failing to fix our own broken windows, Esolen is suggesting, we are allowing the future disintegration of the Church. It’s an interesting idea. I think of Church dissolution as the consequence of errant decisions by misguided (or wicked) people in authority. This church ordains homosexuals, that church tolerates gossipy cliques, and virtually every church in Protestant circles tacitly encourages “church shopping.” The broken-window theory, however, suggests that by being slack in small things, we make it more likely that we’ll err in big things.
I don’t know if that’s true, but it sure does trigger some thought. Does it matter if our teenagers come flippy-flapping into the sanctuary Sunday morning wearing their sandals and shorts? Or if meaningful hymns are edged out in favor of whatever happens to be popular on the radio? In those examples I reveal some of my biases, and I’m hesitant to call them broken windows because maybe it’s just the case that I don’t like them due to the fact that I am a stuffy curmudgeon. It’s a routine sin of mine, and perhaps for some of you as well, to search for how my likes are Biblically justified, and my dislikes Biblically condemned.
Still, I’ve got the nagging feeling there’s something to this broken church-window idea. When the preacher tells everyone to call him “Pastor Joe,” when we care less and less about what we wear to church, when the hymns (and sermons) get tailored to our tastes and other time commitments, I wonder if we ought to be hearing the sound of shattering glass in the background. On the other hand, sometimes a broken window lets in more air. If only we knew whether the changes we make (or allow) led to good or ill.
All of which leads me to the question I want to ask, because I’m sure it will spark some fun (yet respectful and thoughtful, because that’s how we do it here) discussion: What broken window do you see in the today’s churches? Not a great glaring sin, but a little thing. And explain why you think it will lead to big things.




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back to top76 Comments to “Broken church windows”
Biblical illiteracy. There are pew Bibles, but rarely does anyone pick one up to read along with the Scripture lessons. We don’t have to because it’s all printed in the bulletin. Lots of folks wouldn’t know where to look anything up in the Bible because they don’t have to. I know a lot of Bibles collect dust at home too. I think if we were better at making disciples and encouraging the members to put a little of their own effort into spiritual undertakings rather than doing it all for them, we might see something more to show for spiritual the seeds we plant. In the misguided notion that if we make it easy, they’ll be more inclined to participate, we forget that you get out of it what you put into it in any endeavor, and that includes Bible study and reading.
I know in my church it would be quite a shock if the pastor announced that we were all going to look up the Scripture lessons ourselves and we’ll wait until everyone has it so they can follow along. There would be quite an awkward and uncomfortable silence. I think they would be equally shocked if the pastor shook things up and asked someone at random to stand up and read it aloud. (”We are LCMS Lutheran, after all and that’s NOT the way we do it here,” she says with folded arms.) It sure would shake things up and get everyone’s attention! We have become so used to having it all handed to us on a silver platter that I wonder just how much attention is paid to the lesson.
I’d like to see everyone encouraged to bring their own Bibles to church and to open them up and read along with the Scripture lessons. It makes for more participation on the part of the congregation. (Of course, Lutheran liturgy is full of opportunities for congregational participation – that’s what I like about it.) This just might get folks to actually open up their own Bible at least once a week.
I think it’s a small step, but it could encourage something bigger. The ocean is filled with single drops of water.
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I also want to pre-emptively comment that this thread should not be construed as an opportunity to bash one’s church. I believe that accusation was leveled several months ago when a thread such as this was introduced in an effort to address perceived problems in worship.
If you see a broken window and want to comment on it, you should also bring with you a pane of glass and offer a solution.
Sorry Tony – I felt that needed to be said.
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Klasco
We are all asked to open our Bibles and turn to the appropriate passage given. Maybe a suggestion could be made that your Scripture not be printed in the bulletin. Our pastor reads the odd number and we read the even number. Most all of the congregation bring their OWN Bibles to church. Many have little notebooks as well.
It’s sometimes difficult to change habits which a church has had for years. There’s a few in our church I would love to see changed.
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Declining attendance at Sunday evening services and other opportunities during the week (men’s breakfasts, home Bible studies, mid-week services). Sunday mornings are strong but distractions, traffic, etc. are culling out the sheep during the week.
On the plus side, attending a fellowship that teaches inductively through the Word verse-by-verse, I’d say 90% of the youth and adults bring their Bibles on Sunday mornings.
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op
I’ll vote for the watering down what it means to “fear God”. Those who are not in Christ need to be continually reminded to fear His Wrath. Those who are in Christ need to be continually reminded to fear being unfaithful to His Love.
Not doing the first is disobedient to God’s command to spread His Gospel. Not doing the second leads to the believer’s eventual compromise with the world, decreasing his usefulness for God’s purpose — which is to spread His Gospel
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Truth to be told in my church the assorted small broken windows are caused by a slipped foundation, basically the modernist notion that people are basically good folk that simply need to clean up their act a bit, i.e. a rejection of original sin, along with its corollary that most of our problems stem from bad institutions.
Reinhold Niebuhr in his magnum opus, The Nature and Destiny of Man in volume one has a section The Easy Conscience of Modern Man with three chapters, 1.The Effort to Derive Evil from Specific Historical Sources, 2.Nature as the Source of Virtue, 3.The Optimism of Idealism.
The problem isn’t the small broken windows; rather it is that many churches, though they deny it, have the poison of modernism running through their veins. Back in the first half of the 18th century Jonathan Edwards, America’s greatest theologian/ philosopher, who himself was enticed by modern theology at Yale, eventually saw its dangers and predicted the modern holocaust of religion and society.
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Christianity is dying out, and where it’s still found, it’s become little more than entertainment. So even while the number of Christians in America is declining rapidly, mega churches continue to grow, because they’re the best at thinking up and packaging news forms of entertainment.
And the reason it’s become little more than entertainment is because fewer and fewer people are able to accept the God of the Bible as an actual deity, let alone one worthy of worship. Many of the famous stories in the Bible are obvious myths, when not downright untrue. Snakes used to walk upright and talk? Many Christians believe this is literally true. Man used to walk around naked and ignorant of morality, and this was “paradise”, but when we started wearing clothes and became aware of the difference between right and wrong, we somehow “fell”…whatever. How can anyone take such a religion seriously? I did it for years, but not anymore, and fewer and fewer people do, and that number gets bigger every year. On top of that, the god of the Old Testament and his “holy” laws is no better than the god of the equally primitive religion of Islam. Approving of and encouraging slavery, polygamy, genocide, infanticide, the god of the OT is a real beaut. The idea that this guy was a “deity” is nuts, and more and more people are waking up to it. And his followers are so ashamed of him, and so hard pressed to reconcile his behavior and commands with any sort of decency, that they just resort to bald faced lies as to the contents of the Bible. You can see that on here just about every day. “God never approved polygamy” . “The Bible is clear slavery is a wicked sin”. “Yahweh wasn’t a genocidal racist; you’re taking those verses out of context.” Etc., etc. When the adherents of a religion have to resort to lying about what’s in its holy book, that religion is not long for this world.
Christianity in America may not be completely dead, but it’s in the hospital with advanced AIDS, double pneumonia, stage IV cancer, and multi drug resistant TB. You guys can’t even stop the legalization of homosexual marriage, for crying out loud.
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In a PCA, where the priesthood of the believers was recognized, a husband stood up and prayed from the heart, not a script, during a confessional type prayer, and confessed the sin of simply withholding love in marriage. This is living at the cellular level. Not showing appreciation when it could be shown for ordinary occurances. Not asking for the soul mate’s viewpoint when that very act would open a door in the relationship, creating more harmony. Not sitting down at the end of the day and clearing the air. Ignoring body language, not paying attention.
Now there is a broken part of the structure…the church is only as strong as its building blocks, the families.
Forgive us for withholding love from our mates. Walter Callison writes that marriage is a nessecity in Divorce: a Gift of God’s Love. The health of the marriage is the health of the church.
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I agree with Peter L – we are beyond the broken windows stage (that took place in the late 1800s) and the earthquakes have cracked the foundation.
The current plethora of broken windows are pretty insignificant at the moment because the foundation is undermined/shifted/cracked/leaking and we have badly damaged load bearing walls throughout the building.
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Night Train
When is the last time you went to church, and how many times this year have you been physically present in an Evangelical Church?
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Unfortunately, what some believers (like George Barna, in my opinion) do is just join the rock throwers and help cast stones. We think that by criticizing her unduly in public, we are coming to her rescue. Critics often paint themselves in a heroic light. I know there is a time and place for self-criticism, but I am just conveying a concern.
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Joel,
I like what Barna and Viola did in Pagan Christianity because rather than whine over religioius preferences, they present an historical timeline of pagan practices. A very freeing experience.
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Thank you NightTrain, for reminding us of the truth Jesus spoke:
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When is the last time you went to church, and how many times this year have you been physically present in an Evangelical Church?
This year I haven’t attended any churches of any kind. The last time I was in an evangelical church was a couple years ago for a relative’s wedding.
What’s your point? Did I miss some big new and improved version of Christianity’s deity, Yahweh 2.0, that’s been issued in the past couple years, who’s not a racist, genocidal maniac who approves of polygamy and encourages race based slavery and tells us that running around naked and ignorant is paradise, and moving from that to wearing clothes and knowing right from wrong is some sort of “fall” and tragedy for the human race?
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This posting reminded me, “A little leaven leavens the whole loaf.” Good call.
I can think of two broken windows: 1. not remembering just WHO we are worshipping–the God of the Universe, the one who spun the earth into being, He who cannot look upon sin. Many of us tend to focus on the Jesus who is our best friend, not the “untamed” God who cannot be manipulated by our best efforts.
2. Sin. Just what it is, how it affects us, and why we need to confess our sins. We treat it way too lightly–again because of that “lower” idea of Jesus–and try to overlook our own in the interests of unity and peace. Very dangerous for us and the others around us.
Because Klasko and I are practically twins, you won’t be surprised to hear I’m at an LCMS church as well–where we regularly confess sins, but I don’t hear as much about the grandeur and awe of God as I need.
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Night Train,
What specifically did you not like about AW Pink?
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Awstar, that’s silly. I could post the same verse and claim Jesus was talking about YOU. And it wouldn’t be any sillier than what you’ve done.
I don’t hate the light, let alone love the darkness. I don’t commit evil deeds of any kind.
You’re just being silly.
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You lost me, Reg. I was a huge fan of AW Pink. He certainly understood the doctrines of the Bible well. But when you finally come to realize that the Bible isn’t true, and that the “God” of the Bible is no such thing, AW Pink sort of becomes a moot point.
But how about you? Can you explain why Christians believe that when mankind ran around naked with no understanding of right and wrong, this was “paradise”, and that learning the difference between good and evil and putting on clothes was some sort of “fall”, and a tragedy for the human race?
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Night Train,
I thought you said (months ago) that you came to see AW Pink’s writings were a bunch of knit-picking over unimportant things?
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Uh, yeah. See above. If the Bible isn’t true, then arguing about what the Bible means is a complete waste of time.
But how about you? Can you explain why Christians believe that when mankind ran around naked with no understanding of right and wrong, this was “paradise”, and that learning the difference between good and evil and putting on clothes was some sort of “fall”, and a tragedy for the human race?
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Years ago, as a kid, I was visiting an uncle’s farm in Oklahoma. Exploring through the woods one day I came across an old “shack” with a broken window. What happened next was like the videos you see of people bashing junk cars with sledge hammers. I proceeded, just for the fun of it, to break every window in the place.
That one broken window gave me the “excuse” that the place was abandoned and that I could do as I pleased. As in Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde, the bad side of us doesn’t need much license to run amuck. Well, I later learned that the place was not abandoned. It was used as temporary shelter for seasonal workers and I really got into trouble with my “elders” for what I had done.
The “broken window” concept is not a theory. It is a real phenomenon of sinful human behavior. The “elders” of the church need to insure that windows are kept in good repair and that violators are disciplined!
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“But how about you? Can you explain why Christians believe that when mankind ran around naked with no understanding of right and wrong, this was “paradise”, and that learning the difference between good and evil and putting on clothes was some sort of “fall”, and a tragedy for the human race?”
The first time you posted this idea, I nearly fell off my chair laughing. Did you grow up in a church? I think you said that you didn’t. I just wondered. Surely you didn’t have a problem with this concept when you were a Christian?
How about people were walking around in perfect unity with each other and there was no strife or fear, and that was paradise? People didn’t know wrong from an experiential knowledge. IF this was true, could it stand to reason that clothing wasn’t necessary?
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NT – 14
YOU WRITE:… “This year I haven’t attended any churches of any kind. The last time I was in an evangelical church was a couple years ago for a relative’s wedding.”
Just as I thought, you don’t attend, but you spout off your comments about the church as though you understand what’s going on when you aren’t EVEN THERE.
You don’t believe in Christ’s DEITY, nothing new there.
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You’re very strange, Victoria.
I spent about 15 years in evangelical churches. I was on fire for Jesus, sold out for God, fully surrendered, whatever you want to call it. I lived and breathed Christ, and him crucified.
I am no longer a Christian, so why would I go to church? And have Christian beliefs changed in the several years since I left the faith? I understood it pretty well then; so what has changed about it that I wouldn’t understand now?
Are you saying that I’m wrong that church attendance overall in this country isn’t on the decline compared to a few decades ago? Or are you just saying that because I don’t go to church I’m not allowed to point this out?
Are you claiming that I’m wrong, and that evangelicals are actually a potent political force who are turningg back the forces of the gay agenda, abortion, pornography, etc.? Or are you saying that, even though I’m right, because I don’t attend church I have no right to point out how weak the church has become in America?
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NightTrain (or was that LightTrain) said: “I don’t hate the light, let alone love the darkness. I don’t commit evil deeds of any kind.”
Thanks for reminding us of what else John wrote:
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We ought not be swayed by Night Train’s view that Christianity is “dying ou,t” simply due to the reality that as long as Christ’s Word, however misunderstood, exists there is hope.
Night Train has become one of those ordinary despisers of religion who fancy themselves above the religious hoi polloi that the Judeo-Christian religion has dealt with for millennia.
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That’s hilarious, Awstar.
How’s that battle for traditional marriage working out for you and Leavitt, by the way?
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Basically Night Train’s logic goes like this:
Christianity is becoming less influential politically, therefore it is dying.
Problem: Christianity isn’t about having influence, political or otherwise. Christianity is about the glory of the gospel and of fellowship with God.
And while the church in America may be on the decline in terms of church attendance and such, globally we are seeing the growth of the church both geographically and in spiritual leadership, particularly in the global south.
Even if, as NightTrain claims, the church is dead or “in the hospital with advanced AIDS, double pneumonia, stage IV cancer, and multi drug resistant TB,” it is still under the watchful care of the One who is sovereign over death and all diseases.
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Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. – Matthew 24:35
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Night Train,
I’ve read many of your posts on this blog. What I have observed is a man just as you have discribed in your post who has fallen away. Because you no longer believe you chase the threads which would give you an opportunity to share your disblief, but for no other reason than to spew your condition around like so much stale bread.
You aren’t accomplishing anything, if you don’t believe it’s your soul, your eternity, none of us can do anything about it. Why waste your time on something you don’t believe on a blog which is Evangelical in nature? – because you’re so unhappy, because you can’t fix the pain, because you have nothing else to do, has gambling met the emptiness?
The Word of GOD says:
Yes Night Train, we are seeing a “falling away” as stated in the Word of GOD. That is more proof of what is happening in the churches, but we were told this would transpire before the “man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” - we see it, we see it, why can’t you?
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Back to the subject of the post:
A few random thoughts on some “broken windows” Tony mentioned -
“when we care less and less about what we wear to church…”
A couple years ago, when I was a high school senior, one of my friends at church came up with the idea of having the first Sunday be a “formal” Sunday. It started with a couple of people, but now I would say a large percentage, if not the majority, of the senior high wears suits, dresses, etc, on the first Sunday. I don’t know if it has had any effect on attitudes or such thing, but if nothing else I think it is a cool thing to do.
” When the preacher tells everyone to call him “Pastor Joe,””
I don’t think there is anything wrong with this. I refer to most of the pastors at my church as “Pastor [first name].” I don’t feel it is really disrespectful. It’s better than just calling him “Joe”
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Dear Night Train,
What happened to bring you to your present convictions about God?
Having turned away from Him, to where and to whom have you turned?
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REG,
It seems you have been praising “Pagan Christianity” for a long time on this blog. I don’t care. I do care that just about everything Barna touches ends up bashing Christianity in one way or another (and the title “Pagan Christianity” sounds to me like it might involve more cheap shots, but I don’t know). I don’t doubt pagan practices over history but I have come to doubt Barna’s motives and his shallow and selective scholarship.
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What happened to bring you to your present convictions about God?
I woke up.
Having turned away from Him, to where and to whom have you turned?
To the truth. Read Slave Species of God for an eye opening book.
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Joel,
Let me get this straight.
1)You have NOT read Pagan Christianity.
2)You don’t trust Viola and Barnes, and therefore haven’t read Pagan Christianity.
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REG,
I would welcome a critical and objective overview of untoward pagan influences over the years on Christianity. Such aspects of historical development are inevitable and sometimes natural and should be identified fairly and objectively as we seek to preserve the heart of biblical Christianity. I just do not appreciate, trust or agree with how George Barna has sometimes reported on contemporary Christianity and the church over the years. He has an agenda that under-appreciates the role of the real-life church of today. She is flawed but she doesn’t deserve all the bashing she gets today from believers.
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That’s right, I have not read “Pagan Christianity” have have never claimed to have read it. So? And at this point, I feel no need to put it on my reading list.
My comments have to do with a larger body of George Barna’s works over the years that I have read. I used to like it and I always came to it with a very positive mindset. But he lost me in recent years.
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Considering whether to come in with a broom to sweep up broken glass.
No.
Wandering off to listen to Noori and look for a species to enslave.
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37-
allow for growth and development
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Patty, you should also check out The Gods of Eden, by William Bramley. In fact, I suggest reading it first. And anything by Zechariah Sitchin. Once you read his books, the Bible will make a lot more sense. So will Roswell.
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Dear Night Train,
I went to the slavespecies website and read the introduction and first chapter of the book. The author answers this important question: Who/what is man?
“…we are not the super race. We are the subspecies. …” Chapter 1, p. 8.
“…our disorder is the direct result of our bastard race status, with unpredictable animal behavior lurking in our manipulated double helix DNA. Our intelligence…supressed…knowledge erased…lifespan shortened…memory removed. We are an inferior, genetically cloned mutation of the great civilizations of the past, …” Chapter 1, p. 8.
Will you please summarize for me the author’s answer to two other important questions?
1. Who is god?
2. Who is God?
Thank you.
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The “god” of the Bible, is a composite character of several of the creatures who came to Earth from the planet Nibiru, in his view.
He would describe “God” as the Creator of all, who is nothing like the god of the Bible.
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Night Train,
Do you believe the things you have read in these books are true?
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In every detail? No. Especially the Bramley book – there’s much in there I have my doubts about. And I don’t take any of these books as gospel. But I think Sitchin has deciphered the Rosetta Stone of man’s origins. The Old Testament certainly makes a ton more sense after reading his books.
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Night Train – Your earlier post about the “racist, genocidal maniac who approves of polygamy and encourages race based slavery and tells us that running around naked and ignorant is paradise…” shows rather clearly that, no matter how much you felt that you were ‘on fire’ for the Lord, you thoroughly failed to understand basic doctrine.
Thus, you know have a conveneient straw man to attack now that the earlier emotional attachment soured, but it bears no resemblance to the true, sound doctrine of Christianity.
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KRM – your saying Jehovah wasn’t a racist? So it’s not racist to say you can enslave people from the nations around you, and they will be your property, but you can’t do it to fellow Israelites?
Jehovah didn’t order Israel to utterly wipe out entire tribes from time to time, even the infants and the pregnant women?
God forbids polygamy? Where? I can’t find it. If he hates polygamy so much, why did he tell David that he he himself had given him multiple wives, and if David had wanted more, all he had to do was ask?
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Since I consider much of the Bible to be myth (though obviously there are historical facts jumbled in with the moral tales), I’ve never been quite convinced I should work up a good head of outrage about the massacres, genocides, etc. portrayed therein.
It’s like a double-negative, or something. Still not working this out.
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Here we have our resident atheist’s, agnostics, complainers – bellowing once again against the Word of GOD. It becomes apparent that anyone who visits a blog which is Evangelical in nature, – and constantly belches forth their distain for the Word of God has nothing better to do -
It’s like old men who never believed in anything when they were young, visiting the corner general store, reading the news, hobbling along and confusing themselves – then sitting around all day, trying to sound as if they actually have any facts or understand what they read, to share with those around them –
The Bible isn’t relevant to them, although they claim to have read it. We ask, who are you trying to convince those of us who believe or yourselves? ——- I say you come here to convince yourself, and you haven’t been able to do so, if you had you wouldn’t be a constant guest on this blog.
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Hey Random, although I disagree with your view of the Bible, that’s a good point. If NT doesn’t believe the Bible, why is he so mad about what it says?
NT, you haven’t missed “some big new and improved version” of God. You’ve simply missed God, period. You may have never understood God or the Scriptures, even when you were “on fire” for Him. I don’t need a bunch of pagan or whatever stuff to make sense of the Bible. If one puts any stock in that stuff it will only confuse and misdirect him.
JBH nailed it in #28.
I don’t have any new “broken windows” in the church to add to the discussion. But in our personal lives, I think that neglecting Bible reading and prayer is a “broken window” that leads to a stagnant relationship with Christ and a lack of victory over sin in our lives. When this is common it leads to “broken windows” and worse in the church.
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Does God approve of Racism?
Excerpt:
Even as God’s chosen people, the Jews were warned not to oppress people of other races, but there was to be one standard and one law for all people in Israel. In fact, the Old Testament commands Israelites to love foreigners and strangers. The choice of the Israelites on God’s part was not one that was made with regard to race or any superiority. In fact, God did not choose the Israelites because of their righteousness, but because of God’s love. God’s choice was not simply to play favoritism, but He chose one people through whom the Messiah would come to offer salvation to all peoples of the world.
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Regarding Tony’s “Pastor Joe” comment-
I guess the point is supposed to be that calling a pastor by his first name, even preceded by “Pastor”, is too casual or not respectful enough.
I disagree that it has to be that way.
My own pastor goes by “Pastor” + his first name. He wears suits to church each Sunday (except for when he comes back from a trip to Africa & wears a lovely African shirt), & is held in high regard, with much respect.
Our respect for him is 2-fold – we respect him as our pastor, & we respect the man. He is truly a servant-leader, & a humble man, respected in our church & in the community.
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Victoria: Here we have our resident atheist’s, agnostics, complainers – bellowing once again against the Word of GOD.
Well said. One wonders why these people have chosen a Christian blog to do their bellowing. The best thing to do is ignore them on religious issues and engage them on social and political issues on which they can do religious people and their families serious harm should their positions prevail in the public square.
I’ve, also, observed that these characters often either lose it and get banned from the blog- think of the notorious Lincoln and Lon Chainey- or mercifully grow weary and drop out at least for a time. Some of them including, I think, Erasmus and Arcadia are decently civilized; possibly a part of them is actually interested in what makes religious people tick.
At any rate, these characters do help to keep us on our toes both intellectually and spiritually.
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Night Train,
I can see how you are attracted to the evidence presented by the authors of the books you have read. You are believing them. You are still exercising faith in this believing, just like you did when you believed in Christ.
When I asked “to where/whom have you turned” in #32, you have indeed turned to a different book, a different God and a different faith.
So, here are more questions. Please help me understand.
1. Has your “God” revealed himself and his desires in your new books?
2. Does this “God” love you?
3. Has he sent anyone to planet earth (a visible expression of your invisible “God”) to help us know him?
4. Is he worthy of worship?
5. Does he know you?
6. Are there writings of eye-witnesses who heard and saw him?
7. Does your new faith give you hope?
8. Can you talk to “God?”
Thank you again.
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To the bloggers on this thread:
I am bewildered by the ways in which Christians have responded to (and failed to answer) Night Train’s questions.
Please go back and re-read what you wrote. Are these the words Christ would say to him?
Many unbelievers are looking for answers for what they see in this fallen world. We must show them, by our lives and our words, a relevant, true and reasonable religion. Night Train asked some specific questions (#7) that no one answered specifically.
If NT is a lost (and angry?) son looking for good reasons to return, did he find those reasons in your responses? Do we know how to rightly handle our Word of Truth when the hard questions come?
Love and grief should motivate our responses to any lost son looking for answers. But for God’s grace in our lives, we would be as lost and confused as NT appears to be.
After patient persuading, we will discover whether a lost one is a true seeker or a mocker coming with a different gospel.
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PattyJane, you assume that Night Train is an honest seeker of the truth. Were this so, we could hold a reasonable discussion with him. The truth is that he is a rather angry soul who takes delight in bearding those whom he assumes to be naive Christians. From long experience with him, we know that he does not really engage in a serious dialog with Christians.
You’re probably right that we should be more charitable toward him and the other anti-Christians on this blog, though sometimes a rigorous defense of the faith is in order including throwing a few polemical sharp elbows.
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1. Has your “God” revealed himself and his desires in your new books?
No, he doesn’t concern himself with our day to day lives. These books aren’t about God at all. They’re about our creators, not The Creator of the Universe. I’m talking about The Creator, not those beings who manipulated our DNA, mixing theirs with that of primates, to make us human and separate us from the animal kingdom. That’s what the creation story is all about. Before “the fall”, we were dumb animals, who couldn’t sin because we didn’t know right from wrong. Does the ram “sin” when he attacks and kills another ram during mating season? No, he doesn’t know any better. Neither did we before “the fall”. Now we do. But the God of Creation didn’t create humans, and he’s not involved in earthly affairs.
2. Does this “God” love you?
Not particularly. But neither does Jesus. Nor Jehovah. That’s simply a fairy tale.
3. Has he sent anyone to planet earth (a visible expression of your invisible “God”) to help us know him?
No, he hasn’t. No god has. The stories in the Bible are just that, stories.
4. Is he worthy of worship?
Certainly more so than the racist homicidal maniac Jehovah. But he’s not hung up on having every creature grovel at his feet, unlike the god of the Bible.
5. Does he know you?
Is he aware of my existence? I doubt it, but it’s possible. Does he “know” me, as in know all about me? No. Nor does Jesus. That’s another myth.
6. Are there writings of eye-witnesses who heard and saw him?
Not that I’m aware of. He’s the Creator, he doesn’t interact with humans.
7. Does your new faith give you hope?
Not particularly. It’s not really “a faith” for that matter. It’s just the way things are. Christianity gives a lot of people “hope”, but it’s a false hope. The same goes for Islam. You shouldn’t accept a religion for its false promises, because they give you hope. You should believe it because it’s true. All world religions are false, lies implanted by our earthly creators to keep us under control. That’s where the idiotic idea of hell came from.
8. Can you talk to “God?”
Sure. I can also talk to Jesus and Elvis and JFK, and just like God, I doubt if they can hear me. They certainly aren’t going no reply to me, and neither is God.
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This piece below from NT – 56
Oh rest assured NT, you will hear from GOD one day, you will bend your knees and bow, not only that you will answer to HIM. However glib you believe yourself to be now, you will find yourself in very much the opposite position, without a defense – – – except to mourn your loss!
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Night Train,
Thank you for answering my questions. Now I know more about your beliefs and more about you.
You state that your beliefs are true. So, two final questions–
1. How do you know your beliefs are true?
2. By what authority do you say they are true?
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I don’t know for sure that what I believe about man’s origins is true. But I do know that the Bible is a man made book, and that Jehovah is no deity. Certainly no deity worth worshiping. Racism, genocide, polygamy, infanticide, race based slavery, killing gays, killing people who practice a different religion, offing Job’s entire household just to win a bet with Satan…no thanks.
I believe the ancient astronaut theory is true, because it makes a lot of sense, and the Bible makes much more sense after reading in through that lens. But I don’t tell anyone that what I believe is “the truth”, because I don’t know.
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“…Racism, genocide, polygamy, infanticide, race based slavery, killing…”
Your sense of right and wrong has come from the teachings of Jesus Christ!
If the Bible is not true, then whether there is right and wrong can’t be determined and doesn’t even matter.
The answer to my question about authority is that YOU are the authority.
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No, Jesus and Jehovah are supposedly the same being, so Jesus approves of infanticide, genocide, race based slavery, etc.
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I believe the ancient astronaut theory is true, because it makes a lot of sense, and the Bible makes much more sense after reading in through that lens. But I don’t tell anyone that what I believe is “the truth”, because I don’t know.
You have sold your Judeo-Christian heritage for a mess of fantastical pottage. The ancient astronaut “theory” is pure fantasy. The book of Genesis is a much more profound and believable account of the origin of life. The Genesis account will last to the end of time. The fantastical astronaut “theory” will be swept without a trace into the dustbin of odd inconsequential literature and history.
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At risk of getting hopelessly embroiled in a lose-lose situation…
Racism, genocide, slavery, killing of dissenters, polygamy…
These were all the fashions of the day. Polygamy was a typical human failing of the time and God continued to work with the humans of the time regardless. The others, besides being the fashions of the day, were essential for carving out an earthly kingdom He was going to use. And dissenters weren’t killed all that often, because the majority of Israel seemed to join said dissenters on a fairly regular basis, and they were only once in serious danger of being cut off. Now that we are working under a new covenant, and a heavenly kingdom, all these physical unpleasantries are not only useless to us, their purpose long fulfilled, they are expressly forbidden.
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Your standards of right and wrong have come from Christianity. You are using Biblical standards to reject the Bible. Your position makes no logical sense.
In fact, you have no foundation from which to judge at all. If you are simply a genetic manipulation whose existence is unknown by your creator, then your life is of no more value than a maggot under a rock.
Why even talk to us?
“But I don’t tell anyone that what I believe is “the truth”, because I don’t know.”
You have been telling what you believe is the truth throughout this whole thread.
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Cicero, I think you have this right. Polygamy, slavery, et al can all be traced back to ancient tribal customs and ways. When both Jews and Christian reflected on the truths of their religion over time these fashions were changed by a combination of good sense and strong, authoritative leadership, both religious and civil much in the same way our country couldn’t really square slavery with either biblical truths as well as the truths of the Declaration of independence.
Night Train has little understanding of the complexity of biblical truth and historical process. He has been told that slavery ended in the West, both in Europe and America, mainly due to the influence of Christianity and apparently refuses to give it credence.
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Now, as concerns the astronaut theory…
One of the best works of fiction I have ever read made extensive use of this theory, and presented it in a logical, convincing manner. That said, I do think that it sounds like something a scientist would come up with once his degree had given him a license to daydream like a child and still be accepted in the scientific community. Not only that, it merely delays the inevitable question as to the origin of these cosmic DNA missionaries. I don’t want to say there is no proof of this theory however, because to be fair there really can be such evidence; it’s just that kind of issue.
Peter, I think we are not only on the same general side, but somewhat on the same page as well; a good place to be. As an aside, I don’t really know why the human race has improved its collective conscience over time. Things like the Holocaust show us that ultimately human nature doesn’t change over time.
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Cicero, human nature doesn’t change, though conceptions of it do. The pleasant optimism about human nature and easy conscience of modernism that led to Nietzschean moral relativism and nihilism had much to do with the holocaust.
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66. Should be there really can’t be such evidence
67. fair enough
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Now, back to the issue at hand.
There was a time when what people wore to church did not matter one bit, or was not supposed to anyway, by the command of the Apostle James. A trend after that began where it mattered what the clergy wore. Still later, after the Reformation, it started to matter what materials everybody wore to worship an immaterial God who cares about the state of the heart, which to Him cannot be masked by what you wear and what you do.
And the church has always, after those first few centuries, been influenced by the culture around it. This shows up in every area of life in the modern church, bar none.
I’m told that half a century ago in the town where I now live, Lutherans and Apostolics couldn’t be seen talking in public. To my school of thought, that sort of discord and the unloving mindset it conveys within the body of Christ is a far bigger problem than a few young people wearing flip flops to church and the cavalier attitude that conveys within the body of Christ.
That’s a little something I keep in mind for the next time somebody bemoans how the world is going to hell in a handbasket–although I am not saying that Tony is suggesting anything that extreme.
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Cicero, we do indeed seem to be mostly on the same page. I am delighted to welcome your excellent voice to this blog.
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Cicero,
Thank you for contributing. I have enjoyed your thoughts.
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the Lord builds His church, He casts down our religious idols, He is faithful to His bride
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…I love how these things always start to die right after I get involved…
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73-
It is a day of rest for many
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One of the best works of fiction I have ever read made extensive use of this theory, and presented it in a logical, convincing manner.
What book is that?
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It was the Christ Clone Trilogy, by a James Beauseigneur. It is Christian End Times fiction, but for the first two book things are viewed from the side of the “Antichrist.” And unlike some more popular end times writers, Beauseigneur takes his “Antichrist” seriously. The books themselves are liberally strewn with scientific nuggets and footnotes, and though it ultimately probably wouldn’t be your cup of tea, I expect you would find them very interesting.
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