Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Bring Christmas to a child in need!
An 'urgency': Sensing threats to institutions of society, church leaders make declaration 
Click to Print
Include Comments
Divine ambush
“Some wandered in desert wastes, finding no way to a city to dwell in; hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted within them. Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress” (Psalm 107:4)
Bill P. was snagged by alcohol at age 10, by cocaine at 14, and then by homosexual lust. At age 20 he asked the Lord to let him sleep and not wake up: “All I wanted was for the pain to end.” He made a fortune in Dallas but ended on death’s door in Cozumel, Mexico. Two men named Mickey and Gabriel drove him to the border. After another suicide attempt, someone from his mother’s church got him to the Colony of Mercy. Chaplain Jim Freed gave him a Bible. He read and got set free.
“Some sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, prisoners in affliction and in irons….Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress” (Psalm 107:10,13).
Chris C. robbed drug dealers in Atlantic City. He was often “comped” in casino hotels, but, of course, the house always wins. “The same casinos that put me up in $2,000 a night rooms were now having me arrested for eating out of their dumpster.” He was driven to the Colony of Mercy in the trunk of his Mom’s car (long story). Lying low in the Colony chapel to make good his escape, he read a Bible left open at Colossians 1:19-21.
“Some were fools through their sinful ways….They loathed any kind of food, and they drew near to the gates of death. Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and he delivered them from their distress” (Psalm 107:19).
William Raws was a promising artist in England in the late 19th century, who got his first taste of alcohol when he married a high society lady at age twenty-one. Drink’s price tag was their fortune, their property, their marriage, and the day they stood at the gravesite of their three-year-old daughter. Penniless and near death from the effects of rum, he staggered into his room and cried out to God. God heard and saved him. In 1897 William Raws founded the Keswick Colony of Mercy in Whiting, New Jersey.
“Let them extol Him in the congregation of the people….He turns a desert into pools of water, a parched land into springs of water” (Psalm 107:32,35).
back to top61 Comments to “Divine ambush”
Is this some sort of PSA for the Women’s Christian Temperance Union?
Report comment to moderator
This is nothing more than a ‘LEGALISM AMBUSH’ which is not in the Word of God, but is man made to suit his individual needs.
We just had a thread by Andree “Rethinking social drinking” that was only 7 days ago, and now another one with a different set of circumstances.
This is weird —- I mean really strange, you can’t attach having a glass of wine with ending up at the gravesite of a child because you drank a glass of wine, and this is where it finally led.
If you want to take this approach, then show everyone once and for all where wine is a sin, I’m not talking about drunkeness, I’m talking about the people who once take a drink of wine and blame it all on what their lives turn out to be.
Take the liberty which God has given all Believers, make them sign away this liberty because there are those who shouldn’t drink wine, or those who shouldn’t eat until they are fat and obese – add to that all sorts of things you can eleminate from Believers.
The saying should be “if I can’t do it, then you shouldn’t either” -
Report comment to moderator
I’m pretty sure that none of the men in the examples Andree gave were believers. She is showing us God’s grace in broken lives, not manmade rules to keep believers from living in that grace.
Report comment to moderator
I will join Victoria on this one. Just because there are alcoholics doesn’t mean all social drinkers are sinners. Most people are responsible.
The examples Andree uses are of people who were pulled into sin because of their own willingness to drink, take drugs, etc. We could also put up examples of greed and show some real sleazeballs from Wall Street sitting in jail. Because of their greed, do we then stop all trading on the NYSE, etc. I think not.
I am happy that these individuals have found a haven for their problems, but alcohol, even drugs are not the culprit. The problem is within the person. A child growing up in alcoholic home will go either way. A child growing up seeing violence will go either way. A child growing up in a cold, non-demonstrative home will go either way. All those people, when they become adults, are responsible for what they do. They choose how they will live. Is it unfortunate what they experienced? Yes. Can they change as adults? Yes. It’s called free will, it takes guts, and it’s personal to that individual.
Now, if Andree is merely saying that God can intervene to help save someone from himself, I’d agree, and this place is a good place to get that help.
Report comment to moderator
I will join Victoria on this one. Just because there are alcoholics doesn’t mean all social drinkers are sinners. Most people are responsible.
The examples Andree uses are of people who were pulled into sin because of their own willingness to drink, take drugs, etc. We could also put up examples of greed and show some real sleazeballs from Wall Street sitting in jail. Because of their greed, do we then stop all trading on the NYSE, etc. I think not.
I am happy that these individuals have found a haven for their problems, but alcohol, even drugs are not the culprit. The problem is within the person. A child growing up in alcoholic home will go either way. A child growing up seeing violence will go either way. A child growing up in a cold, non-demonstrative home will go either way. All those people, when they become adults, are responsible for what they do. They choose how they will live. Is it unfortunate what they experienced? Yes. Can they change as adults? Yes. It’s called free will, it takes guts, and it’s personal to that individual.
Now, if Andree is merely saying that God can intervene to help save someone from himself, I’d agree, and this place is a good place to get that help.
Report comment to moderator
Guys (ladies?), these are examples of God bringing people back to life from the dead. Remember the addictions are just symptoms of people’s lost state and don’t focus on the addiction – focus on God’s amazing saving power.
Report comment to moderator
JohnV
My name is Victoria, which is a female name, is there some reason to doubt I am a lady? Your smug little questions mark ? certainly bestows few manners on whomever you are.
When two threads a week apart focus on drinking wine and throw in drugs, and Keswick Colony of Mercy in Whiting, New Jersey it’s obvious that the message is loud and clear.
Check out the other thread, “Rethinking social drinking” which Andree wrote last week, centered on drinking.
Today’s current thread has thrown drinking wine with drugs together which is INSULTING, and the reason is; drugs are illegal, almost any thinking person knows the results of drugs. On the other hand wine is not illegal, nor is it wrong by the Word of God to drink in moderation. Homosexual lust is sinful —- however we see that these all get thrown together as if they matched and they don’t.
Wine is not illegal, nor is it prohibited by GOD.
Drugs are illegal.
Homosexuality and lust are sinful.
Now JohnV, —- if Andree had started this thread with just drugs as the focus it would have been a good thread, but she had to slide in the ‘wine’ issue, not to mention homosexual lust, it’s not the same thing.
When you throw something which is not sinful according to the Bible with homosexual lust, and cocaine thrown in —- but as Andree mentioned right off the bat in paragraph two “Bill P. was snagged by alcohol at age 10, by cocaine at 14, and then by homosexual lust.” —- it’s obvious to the reader that alcohol was this kids first step, and ’snagged’ at that – Does even a child have a sense of right and wrong? I believe they do, if they didn’t they wouldn’t hide what they’ve chosen to do from parents, teachers or adults in general.
If you cannot understand the innuendo that’s fine, but most thinking people who know the Bible aren’t amused at the analogy -
Report comment to moderator
It’s true–drinking a little wine is not a sin. But if you practically lose your life to alcoholism or any other addiction and God sees fit to rescue you from the grip of death–that’s grace. Praise his holy name.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria suggested a while back that I should apologize to her for making up a joke about a “Victoria Alert” similar to an Amber Alert.
I am still pondering whether I should apologize to Victoria.
Report comment to moderator
Nowhere in this post does Andree write that drinking alcohol is a sin. She merely points out that there are people who have become addicted to alcohol &/or drugs & have been delivered from those addictions by the power of God.
My own husband is one who was delivered from alcoholism by God’s grace & mercy. Due to that, & the fact that we have many alcoholics in our family, I choose not to drink any alcohol.
However, I know it is not a sin, & respect the liberty of my fellow Christians to drink responsibly.
Report comment to moderator
Whatever happened to Fran Froelich?
Report comment to moderator
Karen,
Andree points to someone named “Bill P. was snagged by alcohol at age 10, by cocaine at 14, and then by homosexual lust.”
Since there was a thread just a week ago about the SAME organization (Keswick Colony of Mercy in Whiting, New Jersey) regarding WINE, I brought it up again on this thread since the SAME organization is the focal point once again.
Alcohol doesn’t lead to drugs and homosexual lust, and that is what is insinuated, (in my opinion) and I don’t agree.
I don’t believe alcoholism is a disease – if it were then it wouldn’t be a sin. Drinking too much is a sin. I don’t believe alcoholism runs in families, but I do believe there are families who live very different lives, drinking to excess and eating to excess, it a way of life which most likely started long ago.
I believe its wonderful when those addicted to drugs or alcohol come to know Christ and stop doing whatever it is which they can’t control. Drugs, being illegal and wine being legal and not a sin.
Report comment to moderator
I have to agree with Victoria on this one. This is the second time in as many weeks that Seu has opted to use an editorial to browbeat those who consume alcohol.
Many Christians use alcohol responsibly, and have not used illegal drugs, contemplated suicide, or engaged in homosexual sex. I agree that alcohol consumption can remove certain social filters that might otherwise prevent certain kinds of conduct. In most cases, though, alcohol merely makes us more likely to conform to our inward desires (without concern for what others may think). Thus, when I drink, I drone on and on about my sinful lusts: running and economics.
I am not aware of any research that indicates that alcohol causes people to act in contradiction to their inner urges. If one thinks about stealing a lot, then drinking alcohol may increase the likelihood that one actually engages in theft.
Report comment to moderator
I really don’t think Andree is speaking out against social drinking in this one. I think she is just trying to show examples of how God’s word turned people around from desperate situations.
I am thrilled that there are those who are dramatically and instantly delivered. Others of us seem to go through a quieter, longer process but God delivers just the same.
Report comment to moderator
#12 concerning alcoholism as a disease: Most folks don’t really understand what is meant by groups like AA when they refer to alcoholism as a disease. We Christians tend to shy away from this because it is as if we are somehow saying that if it is a disease, there is no choice and thus no sin involved.
Here is the issues: Most normal people when they drink alcohol feel a little woozy after a few drinks and because they don’t like that feeling, they stop. An alcoholic responds to alcohol in an abnormal way – when they take a drink, they crave more. The more they drink, the greater the craving and the more drunk they get. That is why every true alcoholic knows that an alcoholic gets drunk on the first drink.
This abnormal craving for more than they need is not experienced by most people. Just like most people are not allergic to peanuts and most people don’t drop low on insulin when they eat, so most people don’t crave more alcohol after they had their fill. Calling it a disease is simply a shorthand way of refering to a reaction that only happens to a minority of people – true alcoholics. Most people do fine with a beer or two, but not an alcoholic.
We Christians can read our verses and say “this abnormal reaction doesn’t really exist” but any true alcoholic knows that it does.
The insanity of alcoholism (or any other addiction) is the obsessive belief that they can safely drink when in reality they can’t. The “powerlessness” of step one refers to this abnormal craving alcoholics get when they take a drink. The “restore to sanity” of step two refers to the belief that only God can change one’s insane thinking that believes it is OK to drink anyway.
There is alot of room to call alcoholism a sin as well – the deceptions the alcoholic uses to justify their addiction, the havoc they caused their family, the excessive drinking they may have done that caused them to become alcoholic in the first place.
But just because much in alcoholism is sin doesn’t mean that it doesn’t also have an aspect where it is very helpful to look at it as a disease.
Report comment to moderator
I do agree with Kiyoshi when he writes: “I have to agree with Victoria on this one. This is the second time in as many weeks that Seu has opted to use an editorial to browbeat those who consume alcohol.”
I also agree with Janie “It’s true–drinking a little wine is not a sin. But if you practically lose your life to alcoholism or any other addiction and God sees fit to rescue you from the grip of death–that’s grace. Praise his holy name.” They may realize God is there in an instant, they are delivered because they suddenly understand what’s at stake, but I don’t think the battle ends there.
I do not entirely agree with Victoria that alcoholism doesn’t run in families. I have known many families where if a parent drank, one or more of the children had similar addictive cravings, including food cravings, or even work addictions. That, however, is not an excuse.
While I pretty much agree with Outdeep’s explanation of alcoholism, it is also true that there are alcoholics who can take a “maintenance” amount throughout the week so they can work, but come Friday, they don’t want to control it at all. There is an element of choice in it, an element of self-control and will. Of course, the choice is to not take the first drink on any given day. It can be done. I’m also not so sure that a person drinks themselves into becoming an alcoholic any more than someone can sugar their way into becoming a diabetic. For some alcoholics there is a psychological element, something they can’t face, something they may want to forget, so they drink it away. There’s usually a trigger somewhere.
JohnV, I’ve used guys and ladies interchangeably, too, for both men and women (Victoria and I are women.)
Report comment to moderator
This does not look to me like any type of browbeating (I was apparently not here for the other one). She only mentions people out of control with their drinking. Makes me wonder, are the people who like the article nondrinkers or ex drink abusers and the people who don’t like it, moderate drinkers? I often find, when people hear I don’t drink, the mods try to persuade me to try it whereas the exabusers encourage me to stay away from it.
As far as the message itself, it is a story of God’s grace and how He reaches down to us wherever we are, with us not even knowing our need, and bringing us from death to Life. What a glorious thing and may He be praised and thanked for all eternity for what He has done.
Report comment to moderator
I read this Andree Seu post kind of the way Mumsee did – as a story of God’s grace and goodness.
I had one thought about the timing of this post, with its mention of alcoholics, addiction, recovery, etc., coming just a few days after last week’s social drinking thread: Might this post have less to do with an attempt to browbeat those of us who consume alcohol and more to do with what’s going on in Andree’s life right now as she visits America’s Keswick and sees some of the work God has done in the lives of people there?
Report comment to moderator
Friends lets not kid ourselves, ‘drunkards’ are not going to inherit the kingdom of God. If being an alcoholic were a disease of ANY KIND, it would be called a disease.
The Bible doesn’t say anything about disease in ANY way concerning alcoholism, this is something secular society has dreamed up, AA took hold of as if it were a gift, but it isn’t true, but IT IS AN EXCUSE, which even Believers will latch unto if they don’t know the Scriptures. Cancer, heart, diabetes, etc are diseases, they aren’t sins – no one is going to lose their eternal life in the kingdom of heaven over being ill with these diseases.
I’ve read the examples given regarding those who have a parent who is a an alcoholic and those who are their children are more susceptible to becoming alcoholic’s – however that is an excuse which comes in mighty handy. Kids often mimic their parents, they start from an early age. Some kids are very strong willed, and make up their minds they aren’t going to drink to much, they are never going to do drugs or smoke, yet others do what they want, it’s a choice. We are given choices to go one way or the other.
I’ve heard people say they are addicted to sex, that’s not a disease either anymore than alcoholism, its SIN.
Report comment to moderator
Mmacmurray – 18
When we surrender our lives to Jesus Christ and accept Him as our Savior we have the Holy Spirit within us – we can count on HIM to withstand temptation of ANY KIND.
It would be good for all of us to memorize this passage of Scripture, and not forget it the next time we are tempted to sin.
Report comment to moderator
For the record, I am a rare drinker, but I will have a cocktail with dinner when I go out. I do not object to people having wine or other libation at home either. I don’t. I have seen the results of drinking, however, and prefer to recommend a hot cup of tea to relax rather than alcohol.
I have no doubt that AA and the Colony of Mercy do good work. Yes, being a drunkard is being a sinner, but people sin, and they need help and support. Obviously, they need coping skills. I’ve seen too much not to want that for them.
Report comment to moderator
I believe the story is supportive of verse 11 of 1 Cor 6 which Victoria has shared with us. The Lord is taking people out of drunkenness, just as he takes people out of all those other sins and makes them new. Each story is about a person killing himself and others in drinking sin, and God reaches down and brings them out of it. Not that they never sin again, but they do not make it a life habit. He puts them on the road to recovery and He walks with them in His Spirit, giving them the strength they need. Whether they use the strength every time or not is between them and God.
Report comment to moderator
Mumsee,
AMEN and AMEN
Our GOD gives us an ESCAPE, if we but only take it! 1 Corinthians 10:13
Report comment to moderator
I got a new Porsche 912 in 1968. If you have never driven a Porsche, you may not understand. It was the best car I had until I got a new 2001 Subaru Forester. (Both are flat opposed 4 cylinder engines.)
I was treated like a ping pong ball by a truck and a big Ford. Totaled.
The Ford was driven by drunk. There were empty beer cans in the truck.
I wonder just what good came out of their drinking. Many families wonder just how much good drinking did for their injured and dead loved ones.
M wife likes a beer with pizza. I drive. I don’t like it but I keep my mouth shut.
I don’t see why so many on WMB seem to stick up for drinking. I just don’t understand.
Report comment to moderator
This is My Low-Carb Body, Broken for You
JUne 6, 2008
Is the communion table becoming more about personal preference than church unity?
Over a century ago, many American churches began to abandon the use of fermented wine in communion in favor of grape juice (much to Charles Welch’s delight). Today, most evangelicals give little thought to the substitution. It’s just the way it is. But last Sunday I was unexpectedly jarred into reconsidering the nature of the communion elements when the bread, and not just the cup, departed from tradition.
Report comment to moderator
I would suggest that many of you research this subject.
How many of you knew that a dentist named dentist, Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, was not happy with fermented wine for the LORD’S Supper. He was a Methodist, his church was located in Vineland, New Jersey. In 1869 Dr. Welch went about to find a non alcoholic substitute, which he finally found and named it “Dr. Welch’s unfermented wine” –
He experimented in his kitchen to come with a non-alcoholic substitute which he named “Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.” This was in 1869. He approached church officials to persuade them to substitute his beverage for the traditional wine. The elders regarded his suggestion as being an unacceptable innovation. His son Charles, who was also a dentist, changed the name to Welch’s Grape Juice and took his new juice to the Worlds Fair in 1893. Welsh made the statement to convince others to switch to his juice as —– “the fruit of the vine’ instead of the ‘cup of devils.” —– when it came to Communion.
Grape juice was developed in the late 1800’s it isn’t possible that what the Bible talks about as wine served at the LORD’s Supper or otherwise was grape juice.
Report comment to moderator
The above material can be found everywhere, it’s widely known and made public almost word for word.
It was Dr. Welch who did his best to eliminate ‘wine’ for his new found ‘grape juice’ which many churches believe is best, contrary to Scripture in the Bible to be used as The LORD’s Supper in churches everywhere.
Report comment to moderator
As far as the article goes, the men mentioned here came to “know” Christ. Not know about him.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
The Bible does not condemn the use of wine, it condemns the abuse of it.
Bill Gothard was once asked about what the Bible said about “birth control”. He replied: “The Bible does not teach “birth control”. It teaches Self-Control.”
As to the examples of the lives of these men, I choose to believe what Jesus had to say:
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.”
As the Prophet Samuel said to Saul:
1 Samuel 15:22
“Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
If a person refuses to obey God and his word, then he is not a believer.
Report comment to moderator
#16 says: “There is an element of choice in it, an element of self-control and will. Of course, the choice is to not take the first drink on any given day. It can be done….For some alcoholics there is a psychological element, something they can’t face, something they may want to forget, so they drink it away. There’s usually a trigger somewhere”
I think we are pretty much on the same page on this. What you are describing here is the “insanity” part. In spite of all the evidence of how powerless one might be over alcohol, they still think they can moderate it, there will be no consequences, and they will really feel great when it is all over.
This is what twelve step programs address: They have this “disease” or abnormal reaction to alcohol yet every week they really believe that drinking this time it will be OK. You are right that there is a sense in which their will is involved (and they are indeed responsible for their actions) but they are also snared in irrational, obsessive thinking and denial at this point as well.
Steps four and five deal with listing resentments, how it affects them and their part in the deal. Resentments is one of the primary triggers of addictions. Steps six and seven deal with addressing one’s character defects. Step eight and nine deal with making amends with others. Steps ten through twelve deal with prayer, meditation and serving others.
For me, a program like this steeped in active Christian spirituality is much saner than looking for that elusive instantaneous, magical healing that Christians so love to hightlight but (quite frankly) don’t happen to everyone. Some are like Naaman who really wanted a spectacular healing but was told instead he has to humble himself and go to a small, muddy river and follow some simple steps. No flashy testimony there.
Report comment to moderator
“The Divine Ambush” The title alone tells where Andree is coming from. That shows less legalism then some of the posters on this thread.
The second example is of someone caught up in gambling. All the examples, as the ones in the psalm itself, are examples of people who need help. Scripture is clear we all need that. “All have sinned…” “All fall short…” Unless God intervenes, we would stay in our sin, however it happens to show itself.
The scripture given in the second example from Colossians 1: 19-21 backs up the idea. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.” Verse 22 continues, “But now…”
That is the story of all of these people.
If that is not our story in some way, we are probably still lost, no matter how righteous we sound or look to ourselves or others.
Report comment to moderator
Thank you, Outdeep. You have provided a clear and excellent synopsis of what is involved.
Report comment to moderator
As for the issue of whether or not alcoholism or other addictions are disease or sin, I would say that perhaps what the world calls a disease is what could rightfully be called a spiritual stronghold. And those strongholds often do run in families until someone recognizes it & decides to trust God to put an end to it.
Besides seeing this “generational curse” with addictions, I’ve also seen it with negative attitudes or pride or other such things. Often the people involved don’t even know they’re caught up in something wrong until someone points it out, or the Holy Spirit intervenes.
Victoria – I understand why you didn’t like that part about being snagged by alcohol, but I took in a different way. When I read that, my impression was that she was referring to (& maybe using words the man had used himself) how sometimes one can seem to become addicted to something right off the bat. I’ve heard some people say they felt addicted with their first drink or smoke or whatever, so I thought maybe that’s what happened to this man. Especially if he had other problems in his life (which he probably did) which the alcohol (& overuse of) seemed to sooth.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria you misunderstand me. I only pointed out that the purpose of this column is to show how God rescues people from their sin. Other issues aside, I prefer to see that as this column’s purpose.
I always say “Guys” but in this case you are ladies so I changed it. No harm intended. I get the feeling you have a chip on your shoulder… try giving people the benefit of the doubt once in a while.
Report comment to moderator
Bob Buckles,
Why do people “stick up for drinking”? Possibly because the Bible doesn’t consider it a sin.
I’m a virtual teetotaller. (No alcohol at all–not one sip–till I was past 30, and since then I’ve had wine for communion a few times, and two or three times I’ve had a glass with a meal at someone’s house.) I don’t like it and can easily live the rest of my life without it. So I have no particular need to defend alcohol. But what the Bible doesn’t call sin, we cannot call sin. Yes, drinking to the point of drunkenness, driving under the influence, or spending money the family needs for groceries on drink–all of those are sins. Drinking itself is not.
Here’s a comparable example to your question. I attend an occasional movie (in the five years I’ve been in Nashville, I’ve seen the two “Narnia” movies, “Expelled,” and possibly one other). A number of years ago, one of my brothers held several tearful phone conversations with me in which he tried to convince me that attending movies was a sin. When he couldn’t convince me by Scripture, he then turned to this sort of appeal and asked tearfully, “Why are you holding onto this?” I think he even asked why I was holding that part of me away from God. But see, I accepted his right to make a choice not to attend movies, and I never flaunted my choice to attend one occasionally. He had no biblical right to determine that he couldn’t attend movies and neither could I. And thus, he also had no right to assume that my occasional attendance was contrary to God’s conviction in my life. (A point of interest: This over-scrupulous brother laid down his legalistic tendencies after that, and has since made some choices in the other direction. Nothing too horrible as far as I know, but he got rid of the extreme legalism, and moved to the left of me on some things.)
Bob, Scripture gives us freedom to hold different convictions on issues that aren’t absolutes in Scripture. I can’t hold a different view on fornication, for instance. But I can hold a different view on whether I attend a movie or have a beer with dinner. Those issues are “freedom in Christ,” and we dare not define sin in such a way that Christ would be a sinner (because Christ did drink, remember).
Report comment to moderator
Johnv – 33
GOD can forgive anyone of their sin, after all HE is the ONLY one who can. I have given the Scripture in 1 Corinthians 10:13 throughout this thread. We as Believers must accept the ESCAPE which GOD offers us. GOD never promises us something HE won’t deliver. When we as Believers sin willfully, and turn our backs on the ESCAPE we fall right back into the sin, this is our own fault, we haven’t leaned on the LORD. When temptation is front and center, we can pray and turn our backs on it.
You started off in post 6 with — Guys (ladies?) — was addressed, if you didn’t mean it that way, no harm done. I wouldn’t get all miffed-up over a “chip on your shoulder” unless you need more attention on the remark you made. There are still those on this blog who have not given their gender being male or female, so I address them using their initials or whatever name they have given.
Report comment to moderator
I just thought that Andree was showing that she doesn’t ahve her head in the sand, in other words is not too reformed theologically for the rest of the world
Report comment to moderator
Head in the sand?
Report comment to moderator
Let Andree speak for himself. Andree?…Join the thread.
Report comment to moderator
Andree, I hope you don’t read these comments, I try not to. But if you do: I get what you were saying. Thank you for another reason to worship my heroic and compassionate God.
Report comment to moderator
Tsharpton
Andree is a woman -
Report comment to moderator
A.P.
Why wouldn’t Andree read the comments? – she posted the material.
If a writer can’t read the remarks/comments and discussion which come from their articles why bother to write? Is talking AT PEOPLE a good thing, or is discussion the main objective on a blog?
Obviously NO writer is going to get a ‘free pass’ if people don’t agree with them.
Report comment to moderator
Andree posted several stories of God’s grace. She mentioned in passing that alcohol played a negative role in a couple of those stories. She received an inappropriately hostile reaction. Some people seem to have trouble tolerating the slightest suggestion that alcohol has a negative role in the lives of many.
Report comment to moderator
Didymus
I’m sorry you feel this way. I am put off by your accusation, which you say “She received an inappropriately hostile reaction.”
There are many things which have a negative role in our lives.
Disagreeing with someone isn’t “hostile” – I would add that those who have been on the side of abstinence are not tolerant, but legalistic, insisting that there way is right, when in fact it isn’t in the Word of God – however much they would like it to be.
I’m very sorry that Marilyn Willet Heavilin lost her son in a car accident, I can’t imagine the pain she has gone through, and still experiences.
There are many negatives in this world, SIN is the TOPIC, everything else flows recklessly down the list from the TOPIC. Wine is not on the list, however consuming too much will lead to all sorts of problems.
I say this caustiously, and thoughtfully Didymus, this is a blog, those of us who disagree have that right. We have used Scripture to back up our beliefs – that is true and honest on our part, to call us hostile, not “tolerating the slightest suggestion that alcohol has a negative role in the lives of many.” is not fair, it’s an excuse, which demands to be right.
Right now, it appears that you and those of your friends who have come to this blog to defend your rights, and inhibit ours are at fault. You seem not to understand that the Bible doesn’t back up what you’re saying. So now you are going to hurl such words as “hostile” – “trouble tolerating” as your defense.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Victoria,
I am not defending my rights or inhibiting anyone elses. I am merely noting that Andree received an unusually strong negative reaction toward a relatively inocuous post. The Bible has a lot to say about alcohol. Nothing in Adree’s post is out of harmony with what the Bible says about that subject (or any other, for that matter). She obviously struck a nerve somewhere.
Report comment to moderator
Didymus,
That was not an innocuous post, nor was the last one – “Rethinking social drinking” – which started the ball rolling.
The “nerve” that’s been hit is the one where you and your friends KNOW very well you can’t back up what you’re saying with the Word of GOD, that’s the “nerve” that’s been tapped into.
If the subject had been presented on the first thread “Rethinking social drinking” with out the remarks which made clear that drinking wine was not a good thing, or there were TWO different ways in which to drink wine, it would have been another story. Instead, friends from Keswick Colony of Mercy in Whiting, New Jersey, or those who strongly believe that drinking wine is wrong – chimed in –
You see you’re still at it, trying to come up as being fair and those of us who made our beliefs known by using Scripture are still being chided.
Those who are founders even got on the threads and wrote that people had to sign papers promising not to drink wine, that’s taking a Believers right away, which the LORD never gave them the right to do.
Are you or those connected with the organization taking responsibility for your hostile behavior against those of us who don’t agree with you?
Do you believe you are tolerant of those who aren’t abusing wine, to drink it without your condemnation? Could we join your Church, without signing a paper saying we would never drink wine?
Being honest about the Scriptures and what they say about wine should be adhered to. Let God’s Word stand as its written, remembering that we as Believers cannot change HIS Word nor should we encourage others to abstain from food or drink which God has made available to us.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Victoria,
I am not connected in any way with the Keswick Colony of Mercy, nor had I ever heard of it until recently. You could join my church without signing a paper saying you would never drink wine. I don’t believe that drinking wine is a sin. If you want to drink wine in moderation, I will respect your right to do so.
If Andree writes a post to invite believers to seriously consider the advantages of total abstinence, I say bravo for her. If later she writes on another topic that just happens to touch on the subject of alcohol, and some people who usually respond in a more gracious manner respond with hostility, it makes me wonder if alcohol doesn’t have a stronger hold over them than they realize.
Report comment to moderator
#38 TSharpton: Why doesn’t Andree respond in the comments?
Obviously, I don’t know what Andree’s thought is since I don’t know her personally.
However, she was a columnist long before she was a blogger. I know when I wrote columns for the local newspaper, it was considered in bad taste to write a letter to the editor about your own column.
Generally, a columnist gets one shot to get his or her point across. If she gets negative reaction, they learn that either they weren’t clear in their column or some reader is simply out to lunch or has a different opinion. If they were unclear, they try harder in their next column. If the reader is out to lunch or just has a different perspective, there is hope that the newspaper community will recognize that and decide.
For a columnist to get in a back-and-forth in the letter-to-the-editors page was considered bad taste since the columnist had 700 words of prime page space to make her case.
I realize blogs are different animals and the rules are different. In fact, folks expect more immediate interaction in blogs. But it is possible (and I don’t know) that she is still writing as a columnist, not a blogger.
Or, she may just not have the time with walking Spider, taking her son to wrestling practice and corresponding with prisoners to do much more than she does.
Report comment to moderator
Outdeep –
I understand what you say, but Andree knows this is a blog, she never posts to my knowledge to anyone. Perhaps she isn’t able to interact, but just throws it out and waits to see the results, that would be my guess.
Many others do post, such as Lynn Mickey HSK, Alisa, and Tony – Since this is a blog, it would be more interesting if Andree did post, and interact with others.
On this subject alone, I for one would like to know how she lines Scripture up with eliminating the drinking of wine. It’s a very important subject, – try talking about this one with those who have studied the Word of God, you won’t get very far by just saying its wrong, too often the Church has been negligent in putting forth rules that can’t be substantiated through Scripture.
We have a whole load of kids today and young adults who look for answers, REAL ANSWERS and if we are going to real them in to conform to rules which don’t exist, using CONTROL tactics we lose, and more importantly those who WOULD LISTEN to us LOSE the most.
Report comment to moderator
Didymus, YOU WRITE: ——– “some people who usually respond in a more gracious manner respond with hostility, it makes me wonder if alcohol doesn’t have a stronger hold over them than they realize.” ——-
Some denominations would jump for joy over that statement, because the implication is that anyone who disagrees adamantly, using Scripture regarding wine has some sort of hold over them by the very substance they are defending their right to drink or in some cases eat. That’s an old way of trying to rein in those who won’t lock step with the illogical and un-Biblical teaching regarding food and wine. If you’re going to get into a debate about whether one should drink wine or not, be prepared to do so without using that comment as a last resort.
Those of us who have opposed the un-Biblical ideas that drinking wine in moderation, have done so in good faith – however it’s un-gracious and stubbornly willful to imply that wine has a hold on anyone’s life, it’s a cheap trick, but you obviously thought it might put a questionable doubt in someone’s mind who might read your post.
When you can’t control a conversation, then you throw doubt, – your credibility as far as I’m considered took a dive. We can only speak for ourselves individually, I have no idea what others lives on this blog are, I can take their word for it, or not.
Report comment to moderator
Odd coincidence, I decided to sit down and have a beer (a nice Sam Adams Cherry Wheat combination) tonight and log onto this site. I read through Andree’s article and considered the encouraging testimonies portrayed by the author. Not once was I convicted of drinking my beer or felt I was being chastised or singled out for what I was consuming by the author.
That is why I do not understand the apparent hostility in responses towards her article. I see explanations as to why some were offended, but it still doesn’t make sense to me. However, we are all made up, in part, by our differing experiences and we all look at the world just a little bit differently and different topics rile up different people.
Therefore, what I have learned is that even when I can’t understand why someone is upset, I accept that to them it is a real issue and respect that and try to put myself in their shoes as best I can.
So in response to the differing posts here, I point to Romans 14:1-3 which states: “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One mans faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.” (NIV)
Now regarding possible motives of the author which have been questioned herein, we need to leave that up to God to judge. We cannot know the authors heart at all on this and should we even be trying to?
Report comment to moderator
Chalzz – 55
YOU WRITE:.. “Now regarding possible motives of the author which have been questioned herein, we need to leave that up to God to judge. We cannot know the authors heart at all on this and should we even be trying to?”
Because this is a blog, we discuss the TOPIC POST, and any articles that we can LINK. For the motives, that isn’t an issue, anymore than why every single poster had something different to say, we all question, that’s part of being on a blog and posting —- and yes question motives —- judging? – I do judge and make clear, when anyone takes the Scriptures to mean something they don’t say. Those who make judgments about anything, which is un-Biblical will always come under the microscope to be examined.
Report comment to moderator
Andree’s first testimony presents an illustration of a man who overcame his homosexual desires. Normally a public presentation of this type of story produces the ire of those it offended. I am suprised there are not more comments on this happening.
A former pastor of mine had a great saying from his experiences as a pastor always upsetting someone in the congregation over things he didn’t say that he should have or did say that he shouldn’t have. It goes as follows:
When you throw a stick at a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit. I would say the posts here support that saying quite well.
Report comment to moderator
Chalzz – 52
YOU WRITE:… “Andree’s first testimony presents an illustration of a man who overcame his homosexual desires.”
It’s wonderful when someone wants very much to change as in the man who had “homosexual lust” mentioned early in Andree’s post – we must remember that the man needed Christ, he couldn’t have done it alone, he overcame these desires through trust in the LORD. It appears he was a very troubled child from as earlly as 10 years old.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Victoria,
May the Lord bless you, and keep you; may the Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you; may the Lord lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.
May He do the same for Andree too.
Report comment to moderator
Didymusm, one of my favorite passages of Scripture is found in Proverbs. Leaning on the LORD, and trusting in HIM and HIS Word is paramount to following HIM as HE leads us from day to day.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Victoria,
Yes, Proverbs 3:5-6 is a great passage. Trusting God and His word is paramount as we follow Him as He leads us from day to day.
Report comment to moderator
What we really need to see is the entire biographies of the three individuals we were given a brief window of. For if any of the three felt that alcohol somehow played a negative role in the darkest parts of their lives, and that they had to repent and not touch even a drop again. Then what some believe is implied by the article would be accurate but justifiably so, because for the three individuals, alcohol was a mechanism to delve into darker temptations.
Does one sin when one purchases a lottery ticket? What if they do it because they want to be able to help as many as they can with financial needs?
What if one starts with one ticket a week but eventually maxes out all their credit cards and savings accounts for a gambling habit? At what point does it become sin to that person?
Whether alcohol or any other potential vice, we must respect the opinions of those we don’t agree with. To the one who has a drink, let that person thank God for it, for the one who chooses not to have a drink, let that person too thank God. Both are made righteous by Christ, not by what they drink or don’t drink.
Report comment to moderator
“Whether alcohol or any other potential vice, we must respect the opinions of those we don’t agree with.”
I can respect anyones right to their opinion, but that does not mean I respect their opinion, JUST their right to express it. NOT respecting opinions which I believe are not Scriptural is MY right.
Those who can’t drink shouldn’t it’s just that simple, nor complicated. Those who entertain others who cannot drink wine, should refrain from drinking wine in their presence.
Report comment to moderator
“Those who can’t drink shouldn’t it’s just that simple, nor complicated. Those who entertain others who cannot drink wine, should refrain from drinking wine in their presence.”
Agreed!!!! If it’s as simple as you now state, why then did you have to make it so complicated throughout this thread? Thank you!
Report comment to moderator
Why chalzz, it seems that all the Scripture needed to be brought forth to prove that drinking wine is not forbidden, it’s not a sin, wine is not plain grape juice, that’s WHY!
You’re welcome
Report comment to moderator
40. Victoria,
I apologize. I did not know that Andree was a woman. I should not assumed a male. Thank you for the correction.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!