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Today’s quote is from a pastor and Bible scholar: “Most Christians salute the sovereignty of God but believe in the sovereignty of man.”
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back to top55 Comments to “Whirled Views 8.13”
RC Sproul of Ligonier Ministries is the Bible Scholar who said this. He was once an Arminist
I highly recommend his book Chosen By God.
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Here is something the Main Stream Media conveniently left out of its coverage of the Olympics. The Military Olympians:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=50774
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I wonder at how we go about comparing words vs. actions on this subject?
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Hey Joe, do you happen to know why he changed his theological opinion?
Are you saying he is no longer an arminist?
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Yesterday, I suggested “Race to the Top,” should be a regular topic, perhaps once a month. Exhausted from suggesting a cheerful post topic, I will return to negative and sarcastic topic suggestions.
At least once a week, WOW should offer a “Race to the Bottom” topic. Although, this phenomenon occurs all the time without even trying, think what WOW could do if everyone put their mind to it and focused.
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Two “outliers” have answered my question. However, I am not sure about Godlumps’ response yesterday. I worry that he was just being a smart aleck and not answering me seriously.
Drill is the official conservative Christian smart aleck and I am the official atheist to radical agnostic and inappropiately labeled as “liberal” smart aleck. Between us I think we cover all the smart aleck ground that needs to be covered.
However, I am not sure Godlumps has posted frequently enough for me to really understand his position on things. So I will keep an eye on him and see how he develops. Never let it be said that I have a closed mind. (OK, I do. So go ahead and say it.)
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Yes Justus331. He was once an Arminist. He is now a Calvinist.
I believe what changed his view point was the debate between Augustine and Pelagius. Augustine believed in election and Pelagius believed in “free will”
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You have a closed mind, Random.
Indeed, your closed mind keeps you from discerning Godlumps position on things, which I thought would be fairly easy to figure out:
McCain=BAD
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Random, I truly enjoy reading your posts from time 2 time, but now something has gotten my attention. Here you are admitting to atheism, so now I will turn the table on you. Knowing that World magazine is a news publication with a christian viewpoint…..why do YOU post here?
juuuuuuuuuust curious…………
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“However, I am not sure Godlumps has posted frequently enough for me to really understand his position on things.”
Hah! That’s funny in a negative, sarcastic kinda way…
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Here’s an interesting analysis of the Left’s “Truth Scandal” and it’s in ability to define “is”. The very word language is built around is undefinable by the left.
“What is Truth?”
I guess the truth is whatever the left says it is. Hence you have arrogant airheads like Gore who think there isn’t any other side of an issue. And you have pretty faces like John Edwards whose denials of the truth are not lies. And empty suits like Obama that speak empty words of change while espousing draconian ideas that do away with babies who survive abortion attempts.
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MIM,
The left has to believe that truth is what ever they say it is because they do not what sex or what is is. If you don’t what what sex is then truth needs to be what ever comes into your mind at the time.
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MIM,
Now that astronomers have actually discovered a diamond the size of the sun that is far far away, you might also find it nice to know they have also discovered, at least in their minds, dark energy and dark matter.
The galaxies are flying away from each other at ever increasing speeds and the ones farther away from each other are moving the fastest away from each other. This is really messing up their cosmological models and the only way they can explain it is that the universe must be made up of 4% of the matter (stuff) we can see like galaxies, dust and gas, 21% of matter we can’t see or detect (dark matter that has mass) and a whopping 75% of some repulsive energy that we cant see or detect called dark Energy that has no mass.
Scientists really like the idea of dark matter and dark energy because they explain everything perfectly and they have defined them in such a way that neither can be seen, detected or actually found in any way. This is quite convenient because it makes sure that no one can disagree with their thoughts and be able to prove it – how can you show them something that can’t be seen?.
I guess they got tired of always proving themselves wrong all the time – at least 97% of the time anyway. I guessing these astronomical scientists are all lefties too since they have proven, once again, that truth is what ever they say it is even if it can’t be seen or proved in any way.
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MIM
Not just the left has trouble with truth; see FOX talking heads scramble when asked to compare Edwards to McCain http://tinyurl.com/5ghwck
Random
Why I post
1. why not
2. the fleeting euphoria of debating in the safe confines of the internet allow for an outlet for aggression without confrontation
3. better hone the logical structure of my own positions
4. I pay for this internet connection so I better use it
5. its probably better for me than surfing for free porn.
6. to expose more people to the gospel according to me.
7. to increase my ego as I observe the intelligence of others.
8. idiocy annoys me.
9. to convert people to apathetic anarchistic agnosticism.
10. because I want to.
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I got $100 for anyone who can come up with a photo of Obama and Michael Vic defending Georgia in Atlanta showing them in a foxhole with football helmets on ther heads and surrouded by pit bulls ….eeerrrr…..I mean Russians.
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MIM,
I post because I want to develop a lessened understanding of the issues at hand and promote it to the weak minded little piggies who will swallow any slop that comes their way – and then beg for more.
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#14 Excellent (though you don’t really need my approval to feel OK about yourself).
#9 Although the table is now on top of me, I have to drive to work. I will answer your question (a fair one), but it will be a while until I get to it. (This assumes terrorists don’t sink my ferry. I have a really bad feeling about this week.)
#8 I really am for McCain because we have not suffered enough yet. Remember how the Russians dealt with Napoleon and Hitler.
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In the first video McCain begins his stop/visit with Van Halen’s song “Right Now”. The second video is the original Van Halen Right Now video; McCain may want to change his song.
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oops forgot the links
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASTX8sPeoko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkQZOnCN3k
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I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will give you mighty inner strength through his Holy Spirit. And I pray that Christ will be more and more at home in your hearts as you trust in him. May your roots go down deep into the soil of God’s marvelous love. And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love really is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is so great you will never fully understand it. Then you will be filled with the fullness of life and power that comes from God. Ephes. 3:16-19 (NLT)
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Thanks for that blessing, Marilee. I, for one, could use it.
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On Michael Phelps:
“He is just another person, but maybe from a different planet,” said Alexander Sukhorukov, who swam the anchor leg for the second-place Russians.
Michael had 5 golds and 5 new world records in these Olympic Games with 3 more races. He now has 11 gold medals total to prove he is the best Olympic athlete of all time.
His competitors were stunned when Phelps said he plans to compete trough the 2012 Olympics and go for a total of 20 gold medals. An anonymous competitor was heard saying “I hope he switches to volleyball by then but I bet he could get a gold and beat the Chinese in gymnastics too.”
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I saw him swim early this morning, in a tape-delayed meet. I also saw a video on Mr. Phelps on ESPN’s Sportscenter broadcast.
This young man certainly swims like a fish.
truly amazing, and fun to watch!
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“McCain=BAD”
Correction.
McCain = BushX2 = REALLY-REALLY BAD!
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9. Justus331
Random, … Knowing that World magazine is a news publication with a christian viewpoint…..why do YOU post here?
There are many reasons I comment at WOW, and I examine them frequently.
I have been frequently criticized about my commenting. #1 was that my posts were too long. I worked on briefing them.
Criticism #2 was for being superficial and not being able to develop a coherent argument.
This is known as a double bind.
What follows is a post both too long and not long enough.
Here are a few of the reasons I comment here.
1) I decided that I was an atheist by the age of 10 or so. Later, I thought: My rejection of religion is superficial; I should study it a little more before I reject it. 2) After reading WOW, re-reading some of the Bible and other materials, etc., I now have a slightly more sophisticatedly superficial rejection of religious belief. 3) My family tends to have weird experiences and escape boxes: cousin who went to Taiwan, learned Chinese, became a millionaire; brother who went to Senegal in Peace Corps, learned Wolof, learned silver jewelry making, played lead guitar as only white performer in Senagalese village rock and roll band, etc. I am less talented, so I post stupid comments at this web site. 4) I long thought that a lot of Christianity in America is superficial “Go to church on Sunday; ignore belief in my daily life the rest of the week.” I thought if someone is going to be a Christian, they should be a fanatically obsessed, think about it every minute of their day and night, practice it constantly in every aspect of their daily life, and in general be a “whack job” on the subject. (“Whack job” by the way is a registered copyright of you know who.) I am still wondering where I could find people of that variety. 5) I find the obsession of conservative Christians about homosexuality fairly appalling. It’s not exactly the same as racism, but it lives in the same neighborhood. I found that some people here have arrived at a calm position I can live with: homosexuality is a sin like any other sin (adultery) for example. As far as the rest of the WJ’s, I haven’t decided what to do about them. [Censored passage.] 6) The general obsessing about sexuality in general is sort of evangelical pornography. My wife made me give up the subscription to Playboy I once got for free by accident. (This is true.) So reading the Victoria Alerts about sex is the naughty reading thrill I can get. 7) I once fantasized about being a comedian when I don’t grow up and for a while I hung out in comedy clubs. However I chickened out because I am a slow thinker. If an audience member heckled me, I would say, “Come back in two hours when I have a witty come back.” It’s easier to handle heckling when I do blog comedy for conservative Christians. It’s rare, but occasionally someone here admits to laughing. 8 ) Once in a while, someone says, “Random has a point.” 9) The old WMB inspired me to start my own blog. I only have about 30 readers; perhaps five or so are from WOW. This is known as scraping the bottom of the barrel.
10) I didn’t keep the details or documentation for what I relate, but it is more or less true. About two years or so I read a three or four posts by someone who seemed like a standard evangelical, religious right” poster. No better or worse than the fairly standard run-of –the-mill commenting one finds here. I didn’t keep his screen name and don’t remember it.
One day I went into one of my standard boring rants about excessive generalizing, stereotypes, clichés, name-calling, yada, yada, yada … This forgotten poster posted one last post that went in a musing sort of way (no connection to the person who uses that screen name) that went something like:
generalizations…clichés…stereotypes… It seemed to have an I am out of here scent to it.
I assumed that this unknown conservative Christian is still a Christian, still conservative, still goes to church, but at least eschews clichés and stereotypes.
I realize the joy all the evangelical Christians must feel when they bring somebody to belief. I can die (well not “easy,” but a little more relaxed) knowing I may have brought one person to low agnosticism, which consists of nothing more astonishing than thinking for yourself and avoiding copying stupid clichés and silly stereotypes. You can still believe in Christianity. Try it.
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Musing requested on an earlier thread that I discuss my “taxonomy” of the Christian sects. I did and am reposting it here.
For me taxonomy turns on “orthodoxy.” You have historic orthodox Christianity in which the traditionalists in the Roman Catholic, reformed Protestant and capital O Orthodox Church believe.
And that which falls outside of it, be it JWism, Mormonism, Roy Masters’ theology, or the theology of America’s key Founders is “heresy” or “not historic Christianity.” If we take a broader reading of “Christianity” then all of these systems could be termed “Christian.”
“Christian Nationalists” are usually the first to call the Mormons a “cult” or false teaching. I’m simply here to show them, according to the standard that judges “Mormonism” as a heretical cult, what America’s key Founders believed in was a heretical “Christian” cult as well.
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Jon,
What about non-Reformed Protestants?
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Like who the Anglicans? If they believe in the “orthodoxy” that is part of the historic creeds (the Nicene & Apostles) then they are part of “historic” or “orthodox” Christianity. If not, they are “heretics.” But, of course, I’m using “orthodoxy” as a baseline. If we throw that out, then anyone who calls himself a “Christian,” including figures like Oprah Winfrey who embraces New Age teachings and holds all religions bring you to God, is a “Christian.” If we did that then the term “Christian” would lose much of its meaning. Oprah Winfrey and Ellen Degeneres could lead the “Christian Coalition.”
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Random – I think the reason some Christians (& the non-Christians, too) on here may seem to be obsessed with homosexuality or other sex-related issues is because when those issues are brought up (in a post or by another commenter), they naturally respond. In other words, I doubt many people here go around spouting off about these matters on a daily basis.
And most Christians I know do think for themselves. Many of us were not raised in Christian homes, many were once quite liberal, but have researched & read & thought about various issues before making up our minds.
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I take a lot of heat here for my test of orthodoxy as regards the key FFs. But given I really don’t have a dog in the fight (I’m not a Christian, but a detached scholar of Christianity) and given that I am a lawyer, I can take the other side. I’ll start arguing that Jefferson, J. Adams, Franklin et al. were “Christians” because they called themselves such. And I’ll consequently argue that Oprah, Obama, the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Bishop Spong, Gene Robinson and the present day Unitarian-Universalists are “Christians.”
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Thank you, Cameron. I for one am a non-Reformed Protestant. And although I like to believe I am one of only a handful in the world with my set of beliefs, there are many that agree with me in one way or another-just not in all points.
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Rio,
What church do you belong to if I may ask? And what are some other examples of non-reformed Protestants?
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Llama’s abject ignorance (#13) never fails to amuse me.
Llama: Many things in space are detected not by direct observation, but by observing their effects on other things.
A good number of comets, moons and Pluto were first detected not because anyone saw them,but because astronomers noticed other things behaving oddly and deduced there must be something with gravity nearby that we had not seen yet.
Dark matter is the same kind of thing.
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WEST BLOOMFIELD, Mich. (AP) — A political strategist tied to the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal is helping raise money for John McCain, urging his fellow Georgia Republicans to attend a fundraiser for the presidential candidate in Atlanta.
Not surprising at all given McCain’s cozy relationship with dirty lobbyists. They are even advisers to his campaign!
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“When McCain huddled with his closest advisers at his rustic Arizona cabin last weekend to map out his presidential campaign, virtually every one was part of the Washington lobbying culture he has long decried.”
Lots of good info in the article about McCain’s Lobbyist Campaign.
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Jon Rowe writes: ““Christian Nationalists” are usually the first to call the Mormons a “cult” or false teaching. I’m simply here to show them, according to the standard that judges “Mormonism” as a heretical cult, what America’s key Founders believed in was a heretical “Christian” cult as well.”
Okay. So what? Christian Nationalists, as you call them, also believe in the “separation of church and state,” and they have their political views as to how they want to vote and what they want for America, just like Jews or Muslims or Mormons or any other group. And they have a right to express that view (that First Amendment is chock full of rights!). So many here seem to think that just because people believe in Jesus Christ that they have it in their heads to create a theocracy — which is the most ludicrous thing I’ve EVER read on this blog. Calling anyone a cultist, even your “key Founders” is a Christian’s (or anyone else’s) prerogative if they believe them to be cultists. It’s their opinion and nothing more, and they’re entitled to it.
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I attend a church called “Heritage Bible Fellowship,” a family-integrated, nondenominational church. Baptists for one are, for the most part, non-Reformed. I know this from experience having been a Baptist until a few years ago. And no, that’s not flip-flopping, because I could still call myself a Baptist, but I prefer to not identify with a certain denomination for several reasons.
For one thing, although there are exceptions, the majority of Baptist churches differ in their beliefs from me. Also, somebody may try to use “Oh, you’re a Baptist. I know what they do,” and make all sorts of assumptions in a debate, even though their are a wide variety of Baptist churches. But yes, in beliefs, except for one or maybe a few small things, I am pretty closely aligned in terms of beliefs with some Baptists. (there are some very bad ones out there)
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I actually meant there are some very bad “Baptist churches,” but people can be pretty bad too.
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NJLawyer,
For the most part, I agree with your sentiment. But what you fail to realize is that there is a sizable component of conservative evangelicals (represented by folks like David Barton, Peter Marshall, William Federer, Brannon Howse and the late D. James Kennedy) who DO believe that America was founded by pious Christians like them, actually founded by God Himself to be a Shining City on a Hill with true Christians ruling and setting policy.
And, they also tend to, contrary to your assertion deny the notion of “separation of church and state.”
Showing them that 1) America’s Founders were not “Christians” as they understand the term, but heretics, 2) that America’s Founding principles were for the most part not derived from the Bible, and 3) America’s Founders may actually have sinned or violated Romans 13 in rebelling against Great Britain, helps to take the wind out of the sails of their motivation to “take America back” and bring on a “Christian utopia.”
I’m here to show them that they never “owned” America as they false claim. Plain and simple. Not to prevent them from bringing their values into the voting booth.
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I thought a lot of Baptists were Calvinistic (hence “reformed”) in their outlook.
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#29 Karen O
I would agree with everything you say…in regard to Karen O. I have read your messages for a while, so I have an impression in my mind (however correct or incorrect) of you as a person. What you said to me in this comment is consistent with your long time commenting. I would also agree in this regard to quite a few other people you might suggest to me as being similar to what you describe.
However, there are many different groups of people under the WOW umprella. A certain group tends to dominate the discussion by their aggressiveness and combativeness, and the impression they make then tends to be taken as representative of the entire conservative Christian community.
There is an impression (fairly accurate I think) that Christians tend to stick together with other Christians and overlook and excuse each others flaws and errors at times, and atheists/secular people tend to hang together other secular people and overlook or excuse their flaws and errors at times.
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#40, most of the Baptists I’ve run into, at least in New England, are Arminian, and would be horrified to hear that they are Calvinistic!
I’ve met some others who consider themselves “Reformed Baptists,” differing from Presbyterians mainly on the issues of baptism and church government.
I believe there are some other Baptists who consider themselves 4-point Calvinists, disagreeing (I think) with 5-point Calvinists on the issue of limited atonement.
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Jon Rowe: “their motivation to “take America back””
Not to be flip or insult those you named (I personally know only the name of D. James Kennedy, and I thought he had died), but with respect to taking American back, how’s that working for them? Not so much. Actually, I think you misunderstand them, because you misunderstand Christianity.
I know you are hung up on a few key Founders and that you are loathe to admit that they did not work alone and that all these issues were debated over and over again by many people, many of whom were Christians, but the bottom line is that the overwhelming majority of people at the time of the founding of the US were Christian and when these few talk about taking America back, it isn’t to establish a state religion, but rather to keep God in general in the daily discourse. The Constitution does not require that we give up our beliefs. Quite the contrary.
What these people you mention are arguing with, fighitng against, is the obsessiveness of the secular front to deny that the people who built this country drew on their Christian beliefs in building it. Yes, the Constitution is a secular document, but it was used by religious people — people of all religions — merely to serve as the rules by which we live, to do the day to day administrative work of government. Secularists would have us deny our heritage and they — and you — are wrong in that. The country was and is made up of many different people, the government serves all the people, including those with religious beliefs. To deny that is unfair and unAmerican. To require that an individual omit any thought of God with respect to their vote — which is what secularists would have us do — is also unfair and unAmerican. It says everyone must think like secularists — and the people who founded this country never intended that, even your key Founders.
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I’m going to get superstitious about myself.
Yesterday, I said,
Even for World on the Web this is a very strange week. I think something momentous is going to happen before this week is over.
Today I see …
Gunman kills Arkansas Democratic Party chairman
By ANDREW DeMILLO
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — A man barged into the Arkansas Democratic headquarters and opened fire Wednesday, fatally shooting the state party chairman before speeding off in his pickup. Police later shot and killed the suspect after a 30-mile chase.
If I say, this is not big enough to qualify as “momentous” I will be accused of all sorts of things.
Then there is
Political killings rock China’s north-west
By China correspondent Stephen McDonell
ABC
While the world’s greatest sporting festival continues in Beijing, in north-west China’s Xinjiang Province there has been more political killing, the likes of which has not been seen for years.
According to Chinese media reports, more than 30 people have died in just over a week as Muslim separatists, members of the Uighur minority, try to upstage the Games by attacking police and other government workers.
Still probably not “big enough.” I am jaded about horror, I guess.
I am about to head for home. Perhaps it is all about me. I will be in a wreck, or have a heart attack, or my ferry will sink or be blown up.
Send aid if you don’t hear from me by tomorrow.
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I am not “secularists”!
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Just to let everyone know, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.
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Sorry Random,
I don’t know where you live, so I won’t know where to send EMS.
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Rio,
I appreciate the thought. I live in the Puget Sound area.
I have heard recently:
1) The ferry I ride is considered the #1 water-related target for terrorism in the United States.
2) The Washington State Patrol was chosen by somebody or other as the #1 state police unit in the United States. Dogs often sniff our cars as we board the ferry. The dogs are various breeds. One of the sniffer dogs is a cocker spaniel.
For some reason, a cocker spaniel police dog strikes me as immensely charming.
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Random – I’m picturing a cocker spaniel wearing a little policeman’s hat. Awwwwwwww!
If you’re that worried about the ferry, maybe you could get your own little motor boat.
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Jon,
Many Protestant churches may have been Reformed in their origins, but no longer teach any doctrine at all, much less hold to Reformed practice.
Truly Reformed Presbyterians and Baptists each make up pretty small chunks of the overall picture.
Ask who is actually familiar with the Westminster Confession or the Regulative Principle of Worship, among other things. That’ll sort the Reformed from the non-Reformed.
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#50
Or ask about the sovereignty of God in all things…
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Random,
Don’t be charmed by the cocker spaniel. They’re high on the list of breeds most often to bite the vet, and they’re VERY high on the list of “dogs most likely to pee on the carpet.” My childhood dog was a cocker (a cocker mix, really). I loved her, but would never have another. (And yes, she peed on the carpet a lot–anytime she got nervous, and that was a rather frequent occurrence.)
She was rather devious, too–she knew that since she was mostly black, she couldn’t be seen well at night. So if we called her in the evening and she didn’t want to come, she’d stand perfectly still. You’d scan the yard till you saw the white spot on her nose (a backward question mark) or the white stripe down her chest, and then tell her, “I see you. Come on in.” But don’t try telling her you saw her if you didn’t really–she knew the difference.
If I were you, and had the choice of being sniffed by a German shepherd or a cocker, I’d take the shepherd. It will only bite if you deserve to be bitten, because an untrustworthy shepherd would never be chosen as a police dog. And a trustworthy cocker–well, I may be wrong (and probably am)–but I rather think a fully trustworthy cocker is an oxymoron.
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Momof5,
So true!!
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I don’t know if that is a totally fair way to put it…
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Rio,
If you’re referring to me, I wasn’t trying to develop a comprehensive definition for Jon. I simply wanted to clarify that all Protestants are not Reformed.
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