Ideas have nothing to do with reality
Stanley Fish is probably mainstream academia’s most popular advocate that the classroom is no place for politics. He seems to be saying to the Left that politics have nothing to do with, say, literary theory. And he seems to be saying to the Right that conservative politics are just as ridiculous in the classroom as liberal politics. Based on what I know of his teaching and writing and general opining, Fish is a liberal who believes himself above the pettiness, or possibly below the loftiness, of politics.
Teachers cannot – except serendipitously – fashion moral character or produce citizens of a certain temper.
The conservative (and rhetoric teacher at the University of Chicago) Richard Weaver believed that Ideas Have Consequences, which would seem to indicate that abstract ideas (i.e., much of what’s taught in a university) have some bearing in the civic, moral, and aesthetic realm of everyday experience. But Fish seems to have removed “higher education” completely from the sphere of regular human experience.
It’s not that far a journey from A) learning how to read Milton (which is something Fish has taught students to do) to B) seeing the implications of Milton’s poetry for human behavior (something Fish says he is incapable of teaching). It’s an even shorter journey from A) learning how to write an argumentative essay to B) learning why it’s appropriate in a democracy to use words, rather than physical force, to change behavior. Learning these things above does imply that the teacher of these things believes something (the reading of good literature) has more value than something else (the shooting of a good man).
Does this mean that questions of value and discussion of current issues must be banished from the classroom? Not at all. No question, issue, or topic is off limits to classroom discussion so long as it is the object of academic rather than political or ideological attention. To many this will seem a difficult, if not impossible, distinction.
He seems to suggest that academics are the only objective, neutral parties in all of history, but I’m not sure that’s the case. It’s one thing for a professor to say, “Let’s treat all sides fairly in this discussion of abortion.” It’s quite another thing to say, “We are going to discuss the issue of abortion and act like our discussion has no bearing on the reality of any of our views on abortion.”
Finally, though, Fish admits that the professor should proseltyze some values: “The only advocacy that should go on in the classroom is the advocacy of the intellectual virtues.” These virtues are thoroughness, perserverance, intellectual honest, and being conscientious in the pursuit of truth. And where do those virtues come from? The Board of Trustees must have found them in the basement somewhere.



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back to top14 Comments to “Ideas have nothing to do with reality”
He sounds like a lying elitest to me.
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I’m just now reading Nancy Pearcey’s excellent Total Truth, which follows on the heels of Francis Schaeffer in showing what happens when you divorce morality from reality, or “values” from any actual moral standard, or take God away from the picture and still expect the picture to make sense. The universities are the places that are supposed to be teaching truth, but too often are teaching nonsense instead.
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From Milton– “Mercy first and last shall brightest shine.’
And — “I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees it adversaries, but slinks out of the race in which that immortal garland shall be run for, not without dust and heat.”
And — “Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all else.”
Now tell me that Milton has nothing to do with virtue. Looks like we’ve just discussed mercy (and humanitarian aid), perseverence and freedom of thought, and conscience.
Sounds virtue-oriented to me.
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“No question, issue, or topic is off limits to classroom discussion so long as it is the object of academic rather than political or ideological attention.”
Right. Good luck with that professor. I suppose every subject should be examined with the same bored Platonic outlook….
Any discussion of a subject has no bearing on anything?
As if.
How did a guy with such a disconnect ever get so far in life?
He might easily qualify as the dumbest smart guy I know about.
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This feller undermines his own premises by making his point. Do any of you see that?
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To many this will seem a difficult, if not impossible, distinction.
Count me among the many.
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Now as often before I wish HSK’s discourses on rhetoric would address Aristotle’s distinctions between logos, dialectic, and rhetoric. The classical idea was that these three human facilities have separate purposes and rules and even different practitioners. It seems to me that HSK wants to confuse them.
HSK often talks as if he knows of and teaches some kind of continuum from the contemplation of God (logos) to the practice of scientific method (dialectic) to the consideration of ethical and political questions (rhetoric). Maybe there is such a continuum and HSK can use his knowledge of the Eternal Word to validate creation science and calculate the appropriate tax cuts for the wealthy. But he hasn’t explained how.
Me, I think Fish is correct in his assessment of rhetoric as the art of persuasion concerning matters that can be stated perpetually otherwise, because the subject of rhetoric is fundamentally ambiguous. And science, in which Fish probably includes criticism, is primarily a training in method.
If you want absolutes, however, they’re all in Augustine.
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Tom Gilson posted this story on his blog and contrasted it with the immediately preceding entry, which is much more interesting, imo.
http://tinyurl.com/6zoqyb
“[R]esearchers found that the amount a participant cheated correlated with the extent to which they rejected [the philosophical notion of] free will….”
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“The classical idea was that these three human facilities have separate purposes and rules and even different practitioners.”
Having separate purposes, rules, and practitioners does not mean they operate independently of each other. Besides philosophy didn’t lie down in the grave with Aristotle.
Where objectivity is important in avoiding the politicizing of the classroom, true objectivity requires ownership of one’s own presuppositions.
The idea of “University” that was developed by Western European civilation is predicated on a unified version of truth. The piecemeal compartmentalization of knowledge and value that Fish seems to be championing is ultimately untenable and contrary to the mission of the university in which he finds a home.
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Having separate purposes, rules, and practitioners does not mean they operate independently of each other.
Different content too. Sure this means they operate independently. A rhetorician can pretend to be scientific, but not do science. Dialectical reasoning requires training and practice, not just in general, but in a specialty. Only mathematicians and theologians can do logos.
All knowledge exists in the mind of God and you can take, or audit, any course in the university, but that doesn’t begin to solve our problems. The challenge of Aristotle to evangelicals is that most of the important things we talk about, including everything in ethics and politics, are things that we have to talk about interminably because they are matters of judgement, experience, and preference and nobody ever has the last word, except as a matter of convention (an election, for example). If we could determine such questions by dialectic or logos, there would be no point in arguing, but we can’t so we’re stuck in the never-ending arena where combatants change their colors like boxers who end up wearing each others coats (in Lincoln’s famous example). Ideas about ethics and politics are the stage props of desire.
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Certainly there are three different forms of knowledge, Scroop, but I would posit that teachers & professors have the chance–especially in humanities courses–to touch on all three. If they don’t take that chance, they’re letting their students down.
Let’s keep using Milton as an example. He wrote Areopagetica, a treatise on freedom of speech and thought in 1600’s England. Now, certainly the professor may touch on the dialetic and teach the students how Milton argued and what made his argument great .
But should he not then move beyond that into what you call–unless I am mistaken–”logos” and discuss the content itself –the freedom that Milton advocated? And would not such a discussion necessarily involve religious, theological–”virtuous”, if you will–ideas?
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A long time has passed since I read this, but it’s the locus classicus for arguments against censorship, right?
You have good example for this discussion. We still have to argue about censorship today, while we don’t have to prove the calculus. This is because freedom of expression is relative to other goods, such as security, and ownership of information, etc. In each case, we have to persuade each other to what value to adopt, and some of us will disagree, and even contradict ourselves in relation to previous cases.
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The purpose of education is to teach students the difference between right and wrong and get them to prefer the right.–Samuel Johnson
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If Samuel Johnson is right, then Christian parents have a lot to worry about in sending their children to government indoctrination centers that are all about moral relativism and revisionist history. Not to mention straight out lies about the origins of our beginning.
How do Christian parents combat what the schools teach? Sadly, my parents were not able to persuade three of their five children that the schools were wrong. I have three atheistic siblings to prove that schools do work. (Only in turning children’s hearts away from God.)
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