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Spare the rod in school?
Two groups are questioning the use of corporal punishment in schools after a study revealed that more than 200,000 children received a spanking or paddling during the 2006-2007 academic year. Currently 21 states permit corporal punishment in school, but the joint study by Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union found that only 13 states use it frequently.
While study author Alice Farmer acknowledges that such discipline can be quick and effective, she wrote that ”beating kids teaches violence, and it doesn’t stop bad behavior. Corporal punishment discourages learning, fails to deter future misbehavior and at times even provokes it.” Dr. James Dobson argues, however, that spanking “can be useful for elementary students, especially with amateur clowns (as opposed to hard-core troublemakers)” and gives teachers a useful tool to back up their word.
Does corporal punishment have a place in the classroom, or is it best administered in the home?
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Again, education (and discipline goes with education) belongs in the home. Deut 6, folks. It’s all there in black and white.
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The question is not complete. HOW spanking is administered is the issue. Although, I don’t think the Bible gives permission for teachers to spank, unless it is the kind of thing that goes without saying. I wouldn’t assume teachers’ right to spank. The classroom can have a real chaotic atmosphere depending at least some on the ATTITUDE of the teacher towards the students. If the teacher is superior and uses put downs, very little will be well received. If the teacher is an example of life skills, and demonstrated and teaches respect among indiduals, then spanking could be used in a helpful way.
My experience was that I home schooled my children through those years that spanking was effective, so spanking was kept in the home. By the time they went to school, they were able to control themselves.
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Now days most schools consider a spanking cruel and counter productive with young children, so now when a child misbehaves they generally just call the police and have the kids arrested and branded with a recorded. That always works.
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Cattle prods usually work for the hard core criminal student, then you can have them arrested.
Sadly, they will probably be a member of a gang and drive by your house when you least expect it and machine gun it up for sport. Some of your family might survive.
No one in their right mind would ever spank a child in public school today. The ACLU will be all over you, you will be sued, lose your job and probably be killed. It doesn’t make a difference if it is allowed or not in some states.
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If it is administered properly at home, it should not be needed at school.
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My vote: It is best administered at home…and does have a place in classrooms as well.
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When my child was in day care, there was a little boy who was so bad, that they would sometimes have to call his father, who would leave work and come give him a spanking.
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graduate students need a whuppin every now and then.
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From lower school through upper school, the rattan was used, sparingly but effectively. I received it once hard in the palms for getting in a fight on the school lawn with the school bully. He got it thrice for earlier fights,I once for a first and last fight. I still remember and have great respect for the strict school authorities that I dealt with. I still have a slight lingering resentment of a father who spanked.
As a parent of three children, I never spanked or hit, however sorely tempted at times.
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It doesn’t work on those on whom it is used but works on those who don’t receive it. However, the latter group is also suitablely kept in line by the threat of non-corporal punishment.
Corporal punishment is child abuse wherever it takes place.
I’m probably the last person to be strapped in my school. About six weeks after this incident, I was once again in the office (my initials are carved on the “bench” where the bad boys awaited their doom), the principal threaten to strap me once again — I stuck my hand out said “go ahead if thats all you can do is hit a kid” Hitting children leads to a total loss of respect since it illustrates the lack of ability for the adult to control the child.
A colleague once told me that corporeal punishment if used in the toddler years leads to an “imprint” in the mind that enforces respect and hence you don’t need to use corporeal punishment when they are older and may remember it in their later years. Personally and perhaps idealistically I’d like to imprint my love and not a “healthy fear”
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PETER LEAVITT: . . . thrice . . .
We weep, Pumpkin.
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Amen to what HRW said.
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Corporal punishment is kind of like prayer: It’s a great idea in schools, but I don’t trust the government schools to do it properly.
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I remember when my oldest was a baby (1996)hearing about a school in Stroudsburg, PA bringing in a doctor to give physicals to 6th grade girls whose parents failed to “opt out” of the requirement.
The girls were forceably held down against their will and examined for STDs and signs of sexual assault. They were denied their requests to call their parents.
Schools were defended by the left in that case, because the school officials were “protecting” the girls against abuse (by abusing them!!).
World wrote a story about it: http://www.worldmag.com/articles/1816?CFID=7484235&CFTOKEN=84180329
(Sorry, I don’t know how to do the tiny.url links.)
That incident helped me in my resolve to homeschool my children all the way through high school.
How in the world can sane people condone forceable gyn exams on children, yet condemn a mere spanking for bad behavior?????
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I understand the reluctance to let school officials spank, but I think the alternative is worse–school violence has skyrocketed since teachers and principals have been generally de-fanged by phasing out spanking.
Now bigger and more dramatic punishments are needed to reign in the troublemakers (#3, #6).
We aren’t doing children any favors by treating them like little adults, calling the police when they don’t cooperate. Spank them and get it over with and reinstate some authority to the ones responsible for educating the kids.
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LOL Kbells, so sorry the sarcasm/irony often turns out to be true.
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I can never understand the people who equate spanking with abuse. Do they also equate skinned knees with third degree burns or a child’s pouting with massive depression?
Talk about overkill!!
I rarely, and I do mean rarely, use corporal punishment. I could probably count on two hands the amount of times I’ve used it in my lifetime with my children. But, when I use it, there is a reason and it works.
I RESENT, and I do mean highly resent, being told that I am an ABUSER for using a fully respected form of correction that has been used successfully for thousands and thousands of years. Our little recent experiment against corporal punishment has been going on for about 30 years, and look where it has gotten us!
There is a huge difference between appropriate corporal punishment and abuse. It is obvious to 99% of the people out there, and the other 1% aren’t going to be stopped in their abusive behavior by silly laws making the other 99% into criminals for successfully controlling their children.
And, for those few of you who simply can’t tell the difference, maybe it is better that you don’t choose to use it, since you obviously must have a hidden problem that makes it likely you would fall into “abuse.”
However, I do agree that it doesn’t really belong in schools. I was a public and private school teacher for 14 years before homeschooling, and I never found it necessary to spank my students, although it might have made it a bit easier in a few cases.
In one case, the mom came in and spanked her son, and that was very helpful. (I didn’t ask her, but he was being a real stinker.) So, if parents would back up the teacher as they did in the old days, there wouldn’t be a need for the teacher (or principal) to resort to corporal punishment. They would simply let the parents know what was going on and the parents would make sure that it stopped.
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I do know that spanking is still done in many Southern states. I understand it is still done in Tennessee, though I have no anecdotal evidence to back that up. My sister said that she once asked a group of neighbor children (in AL, within the last three or four years) if they were spanked at school, and every one of the children had been.
HRW, I suspect by your post that you don’t have kids. Love and healthy fear are absolutely not an “either/or.” And no, spanking is not a sign that an adult cannot control a kid; it IS controlling a child. It’s reminding the child that you are in charge, which is a safer thing for everyone in a family than having the child in charge. If all you’re willing to do as a parent is give time out, and the child refuses to stay in time out, what then? All this stuff about corporal punishment being child abuse and teaching kids to hit–why is it, now that we’ve largely done away with spanking at home or at school, that kids are hitting more than ever (and worse)? It really isn’t the kids who are lovingly spanked who are causing problems on the playground, trust me.
I won’t take a side on the spanking-in-school equation, except to say that an across-the-board policy of never spanking is the easiest way for a parent to find his hands tied by a child. Some children don’t need to be spanked, but some do. Fail to spank the child who does need it, and you’ve set him up for greater failures later in life.
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#10 HRW
“I stuck my hand out said “go ahead if thats all you can do is hit a kid”
You had an attitude problem back then.
“Hitting children leads to a total loss of respect since it illustrates the lack of ability for the adult to control the child.”
You seem to be proud of that attitude you had then.
In your last paragraph you misspelled “corporeal punishment”. Was this slip a subconscious correction of what you really mean? Did you mean that even if the body was disciplined, your spirit would still be rebellious?
Please do not take all of this as “Superior Attitude” put down on my part. I am asking you to check your heart and see if you still have a rebellious attitude toward that principal.
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Amen, Cheryl!
Funny how the vast majority of adults today were reared with spanking, and how few of us go around “hitting” other people. The comparison is often made, but without any evidence to back it up.
Children are not stupid (which many liberal adults assume they are.) They darn well know the difference between a spanking from an authority figure and “hitting” a playmate or sibling. Seriously. I’ve never met a one that didn’t know the difference.
It would be like saying that children can’t understand why an adult can drive, or vote, or drink, or go to work and they can’t. There are lots and lots of things reserved for adults, and/or for particular situations in life. Spanking is one of them. It is something an adult authority figure is permitted, and that children are not permitted to do. Period.
And, unless a child is severely handicapped, they can learn that concept very quickly.
And, yes, failure to spank a child who does need it can be one of the most unloving things an adult can ever do, because you’re failing to teach that child to control him or herself, and failing to teach the child that there are lines that cannot be crossed.
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TRS – I said/say nothing about abuse or the lack thereof. I merely say that I can see absolutely no reason to ever hit a child.
And yes, Cheryl D, I have two – both fine Christian young men and neither was ever hit by his parents.
Why must you hit a child to let him know who is in charge? When you are stopped by a policeman for speeding (hypothetically, of course), must he hit you to illustrate his authority and to let you know he is in charge?
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#21 He sure hits you with a ticket!
And besides, children and adults process differently, so different consequences are appropriate. (Hitting, in the sense of punching or slapping around, is completely wrong.)
Mommy, perhaps you were extra good at exerting authority without having to “back it up” physically, or perhaps you were blessed with more compliant children.
Some of mine needed more spankings than others. I was initially determined not to spank, but then I had kids. There are times when it’s just unkind not to nip a bad attitude or mean behavior in the bud, so to speak. It heads off parental anger and parent/child stand-offs.
I was an easy kid, and don’t remember more than a tap on the hand from my folks (although Mom assures me that I needed a few spankings very young).
My brother, on the other hand, was truly a rebellious, determined handful. He was spanked much more. And today he’s grateful that our parents didn’t let him rage and get out of control.
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Cheryl — one daughter who has a health respect for me and knows I’m in charge — I feed her, I drive the car, I have the remote and I can kick her off the computer — as #21 aptly illustrates you don’t to hit to let the child know she’s in charge.
It really isn’t the kids who are lovingly spanked who are causing problems on the playground, trust me.
Well I must be the exception to prove the rule. I was disciplined “old school” home and school yet I was causing the problems on the playground until grade six. One of my best friends and I had a fight which lasted the whole noon recess, in the end we bloodied each other and retreated to the washroom to clean so the teachers wouldn’t know. We shook hands and went to class. At this point, I thought what a ridiculous thing — as the crowd egged us on we continued to fight over a now-forgotten slight and in the end we were still friends. The only thing we did was provide entertainment. I quit fighting and saw it as an act of desperation similar to war as a sign of a failure of diplomacy. Hence my contempt for authority who needed to use violence to instill respect — an act of desperation.
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I am agnostic and skeptical about discipline and children. More than one method can work. What works for one child does not necessarily work for another.
My wife and I did not use spanking as parents, though our daughter might have got an exasperated spank for running out into the street, or something equally dangerous. I am sure that there are fine parents who spank and raise their children well.
I see two problems with physical punishment in general:
1) For a parent with a natural tendency to abuse children, this puts them on a slippery slope and seems to endorse their bad instincts.
2) If you strike a child for fighting …
In terms of physical punishment in schools:
1) You are opening a dangerous can of worms.
2) I have a long true story about when I was a teacher…
How much is it worth to you for me not to tell it?
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#17 Thank you, TRS, for saying exactly what I was thinking.
Mommy-There is a major difference between hitting and spanking, at least as they are being discussed here, and certainly in my mind. Hitting is an emotional response with an indiscrimate target (anywhere on the child will do). Spanking is a measured response to a significant offense with a specific target. Your police illustration is absurd, as the officer has spelled out for him the appropriate disciplinary procedure–a ticket.
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Spanking is not “hitting” in the sense that you mean. Spanking is not “violence.”
Man, some of you must really have a deep fear that you will get out of control if you feel the need to label something — approved by the Bible and used successfully for thousands of years — in such a way.
You either didn’t have loving parents, or were abused so that you can’t tell the difference, or ??? I don’t know.
But, I do know that different children are different. Great if you were able to rear a few without spanking. But, I have met a few in a long teaching career that I’d like you to meet!
Plus, it is darn well one thing to choose a different path for YOURSELF. It is quite another when you start calling others “abusive” and claim that they “hit” and then start into working for laws against corporal punishment. Then, you are labeling, hurting, and stepping on my rights as a parent.
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Bob
You had an attitude problem back then.You seem to be proud of that attitude you had then.
Yes and Yes. Rebellion is a health form of human expression. When one doesn’t rebel one becomes compliant and dead. I rebel, therefore I an — Albert Camus. As one grows older, the means, method and rationale for rebellion should become healthier but one should never quit rebelling.
In your last paragraph you misspelled “corporeal punishment”. Was this slip a subconscious correction of what you really mean?
Nope just a bad speller
I am asking you to check your heart and see if you still have a rebellious attitude toward that principal.
Only a few years after I graduated I began to understand he was over his head – an example of the Peter principle. He switched boards, and went back to teaching which if I remember correctly he was much better at. Thus, when I look back now I actually feel sorry for the man — and I can empathize with his plight as I teach grade seven and my daughter has the same rebellious spirit I have (thankfully she’s better behaved in school than I was but I think the quality of teacher/principal is better and the socio-economics of her classmates is better).
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HRW, I know what you meant by this:
“…as #21 aptly illustrates you don’t to hit to let the child know she’s in charge.”
But I found it ironic and funny in light of this conversation!
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I dare anyone to spank a kid in any school, in a large city on the east or west coats or Chicago, Phoenix, Denver, KCMO, St Louis, Memphis, etc.
You would be dead in 48 hours if they could find you, or you would wish you were.
I did pinch my daughter one time. She never messed up again. Pinching is not easy for a llama to do or get.
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It would be like saying that children can’t understand why an adult can drive, or vote, or drink, or go to work and they can’t. There are lots and lots of things reserved for adults, and/or for particular situations in life. Spanking is one of them. It is something an adult authority figure is permitted, and that children are not permitted to do. Period.
I can logically make a case for driving, voting, drinking and working being exclusive adult activities but I can’t do it with spanking perhaps you give me an explanation which my 10 year old will accept.
And in referencing to teaching, any type of physical contact can land you in court. Some parents view litigation as the equivalent to winning the lottery and will be tempted to misconstrue anything you do.
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28
Truth be told, I did get a power trip when I told my principal to hit me — so there may be some truth in my proofreading error.
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My sister refuses to spank. She has two children: 9 and 3. I have three: 16, 11, and 8.
The difference I’ve seen in our family is that my children learned to behave and did so much faster than my sister’s kids did. Now, her kids ARE coming ’round. The oldest generally behaves as well as my youngest (they’re about the same age) NOW. But, go back a few years, or look at her youngest now, and you can see a real difference.
The other difference I notice is that my children and I have a better relationship. The occasional spanking got them in line really fast, and they *knew* I would do it, so the threat worked without follow-through most of the time after.
My sister, on the other hand, yells and screams, gets really frustrated, uses time-outs to exhaustion, and takes way, way longer to get the same outcome.
How and why is it abusive to give a single swat and have a great relationship for years, but it is not abusive to be angry, frustrated, and to yell for years?
Honestly, is a small swat and then peace so “evil” in comparison years of slower and more frustrating methods?
My sister is a good mom and her kids are good kids. They WILL turn out all right without the spankings. But, both my sister and her kids will have gone through years of frustration and poor relationships in the meantime while using her slower methods.
Other people will continue to look askance at my nephew who can throw a tantrum with the best of them. One or two spankings, and his demanding behavior would stop. As is, by the time he reaches my niece’s age, he will likely have stopped the tantrums (she did), but there will have been years of misery in between. And, my niece can still be disrespectful to her parents with the best of them, whereas my children do far less of that. They learned the respect a long time ago. And, we have a very good relationship now.
But, a spanking is “abuse” and poor relationship (yelling, frustration, bad behavior, etc.) is not? Ridiculous.
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yelling is verbal abuse. You let children know you’re in charge and in control by first of all be in charge of your own behavior.
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I wouldn’t trust any school to spank a child. Not that kids don’t need it, it’s just acceptable.
Teachers sometimes take their anger out on kids they don’t like, I saw that in school many times.
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SHOULD READ: it’s just not acceptable.
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HRW,
Theoretically, I can see your point. But in my own (admittedly anecdotal) experience, I know of just one family that doesn’t spank who also has children that are a delight to be around.
On the other hand, I know a few families who don’t spank, whose kids are disrespectful and difficult as a rule, and I know lots of families who do spank, whose kids are reliably delightful (smiley, cheerful, helpful, quick to pitch in, etc…).
My point–spanking seems to get better results, younger, just to back up TRS in #32.
Obviously generalizations, but they hold true in my world.
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I would agree, Victoria. I always prided myself on being a teacher who loved all her students…even the unlovable. And, I never, ever took out my dislike of a parent on their child.
BUT, I knew plenty of teachers who DID have favorites, and who DID really dislike some of the students in their classroom, and who DID hold poor parental behavior against the child.
Spanking needs to be done by a loving hand. I love my kids enough to know when to spank, when not to spank, and how to spank.
Without that love, it could be quite problematic.
Also, I really think that such things are the parental responsibility.
Sadly, though, parents rarely support the teacher and the school anymore. I can’t tell you how often a parent would come to the defense of “little Johnny” who just beat up “little Joey” on the playground for no reason at all.
I had one mother tell me, “All the teachers complain about my boy. But, it isn’t his fault, it is the other children!” Yes, of course. “Little Jose” and “Jeff”, “Little Jose” and “Raphael.” “Little Jose” and “Jessie.” Do we see a pattern here? But “Little Jose” was never, ever at fault! And, so there was no parental backing of the school, and “Little Jose” felt he could do *anything* he wanted to do.
The school couldn’t spank him, the parent wouldn’t spank him (or do any other sort of discipline), and so what were we to do with him? At the time, he was in sixth grade and as big as I was. So, corporal punishment was out now anyway…at least as far as I was concerned. (Not that I ever, ever used it in school.) But, years and years had gone by where the parent had given this kid a “pass” and he’d pretty much done whatever he liked.
So, while I think it is the parents’ responsibility to discipline their children, and while I think they should support the teachers and the school (unless they’re truly wrong), I don’t know what schools are supposed to do when the parent has abdicated that responsibility and when the child is terrorizing other students.
It gets complicated.
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Tied in to all this, from my perspective, is the reluctance of parents to spank anymore because “the experts” frown on it so much.
I know I’m not going to spank at a store (or even in a parking lot) because it’s risky now. Not that I really need to any more–my kids are not toddlers anymore, so they behave well in public.
It’s a vicious circle. Parents don’t spank, and schools won’t spank, which gives some parents the idea they shouldn’t spank, since the schools don’t…
Then there is the fear factor of being accused of abuse, which is obviously defined pretty differently by different groups…
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Exactly #36! Perhaps mine are all anecdotes too, but I don’t know any families who don’t spank who have children who are a pleasure to be around (although my niece and nephew will get there.) I know plenty of families who spank and who have lovely children.
And, HRW, I know that yelling can be abuse too. It’s part of the point I was trying to make. But, let’s be honest here. If you take away spanking, and you take away yelling, and if you take into account all the frustration the few other methods left permit, then you are talking years and years of frustration.
Five minutes of drama over a spanking and years of (general) peace (hey, even I won’t admit to perfection!!! LOL)
vs.
Daily frustration over repeated behavior using time-outs and — yes — yelling. (I’ve never met a parent who never yells, and don’t tell me you’re one of them. I’ll have a hard time believing it! My argument is that daily frustration over poor behavior leads to MORE yelling than would be had from a parent who spanks and quickly controls such behavior.)
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What would you non-spankers do with a child who will not stay in time out or go to their room, who will physically fight you if you try to move them someplace they don’t want to go and who will start throwing things if you try to ignore them. I tried all the “non-violent” methods and ended up bitten, bruised and with broken stuff. Spanking is the only thing that works on some kids. I have a feeling a lot of non-spankers just have easy going kids.
BTW I generally don’t want the school to spank my kid but I wouldn’t sue a teacher who swatted my child’s hand inches from sticking a paper clip in an electrical outlet.
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TRS — The abdication of parental responsibility and the lack of coordination and cooperation between home and school is an aside to any debate over corporal punishment. Parents who blame other kids avoid not only corporal punishment but also non-corporal. (They tend to yell until the kid slams the door on the way out and both think the problem is solved)
If you take away spanking, and you take away yelling, and if you take into account all the frustration the few other methods left permit, then you are talking years and years of frustration.
I may misunderstand you but your claim of less frustration seems to imply that spanking is a means to get rid of your frustration. I would think that would be the wrong rationale. I will easily confess to yelling especially late at night when I’m tired and my daughter wants to stretch her bed time out. But over the years I’ve become better at a measured tone when disciplining and sometimes sending the child to her room gives you time to collect your self as well as calming her down.
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kbellis
My daughter was extremely non-complaint. When she was younger, I used the basket hold to carry her up the stairs. My back is worse and she is bigger so now I have to rely on her to listen. And at 10 she has begun to see the value of leaving the “field of battle” until she calms down.
She has a paper route and a bank account — if she throws things, she pays.
I was always skeptical of the count to 3 idea but I found over time it works especially if count really slowly. IF the three count is complete, you do need to be ready with an immediate, reasonable consequence connected to the “crime” and sometimes the consequence will affect you. When she loses TV and computer privileges, unless you have your own TV you lose too when she is in the room. I gave her a week long ban this summer – I ended up having to play board games with her and we read (separate) books together since it rained each day. Once its been established that there are consequences the 3 count begins to work. Admittedly this method only works once children are capable of understanding cause and effect — at or around 4 to 5 years of age and then at least a year to get the message across.
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TRS – 37
You comment: “I don’t know what schools are supposed to do when the parent has abdicated that responsibility and when the child is terrorizing other students.”
Kids learn early how to hurt other children, get away with it, and keep doing it.
When children can’t be controlled at school, I believe its the responsibility of those in charge to send a child like this to ’special class’ where all of the same type of children attend. Separate ‘play ground time’ – separate lunch time – leaving school 15 minutes AFTER the usual bell rings for all other children to go home – to eliminate the possibility of bullies chasing after their favorite target.
I know that my idea might sound harsh, but children should not be afraid to go to school because of the bullies, and those who make life unbearable for others. Teachers could then be free to teach.
Special classes for the unruly would have at least two teachers per room to keep order – those who still couldn’t behave would be sent home and re-evaluated to return.
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Children don’t like separation from others, its a good first step for these children who can’t obey – learning their is a plan in place which isn’t fun – ALL the bullies and trouble makers in one place –
Kbells, I do believe that parents have the right to spank children, the Bible is clear on it, but liberals can’t stand the idea of children being punished.
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No, HRW, not just MY frustration, but years of frustration for the child too.
You’re willing to throw out the quick fix that’s been successful for centuries, for years of slow, frustrating, and relationship destroying alternatives because you label the first “abuse” and see the second as “enlightened.”
I’m arguing that you’re seeing it wrong. The first is quick, effective, and far less painful in the long-term to BOTH child and parent.
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#43 and 44
Its not harsh, my school board has separate classes and in one instance separate schools. There is one teacher and two assistant and 8-10 kids who don’t dare breathe without permission. The assistants just walk up and down the aisle handing out and taking away tokens. The tokens are used to buy recess or any other privilege. It works.
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BTW, HRW, I am not advocating that you start spanking your daughter NOW. IMHO, spanking is really most effective in the toddler years, and occasionally into the early elementary years. I do not spank my 11 year old, and wouldn’t dream of spanking my 16 year old.
Firstly, I expect that their general behavior is more or less set from the early years, and secondly, I think there are better and more useful techniques at their ages.
I *might* spank my 8 year old, but would likely pick something else at this age as well.
I know other parents would disagree, and I would allow them to use what works for their kids without calling them “abusers.” But, for me, spanking is a technique for young children for controlling behavior, and certainly, IMO, cannot be *started* with a 10 year old who’s never had it.
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I don’t view corporal punishment as successful. The slippery slope aspect has allowed for a level of abuse to become acceptable. Corporal punishment in schools and other institutions did not reduce violence or other misbehavior. Medieval Europe was far more violent than today.
What works is routine, order, consistency and a perception of control whether you spank or not won’t matter if you don’t have those qualities.
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I also think that this is a topic (as is any that directly relates to our children) that is full of misunderstanding and fear. I think all parents fear that they could be doing a better job, or could have done a better job, or some such. So, when we look at other parents, and see them doing something else, we have a couple of choices. The one often picked is to condemn the other parent and what they do. Somehow, it makes parents feel better.
So, the worst arguments you’ll ever hear on a list are often those related to parenting, because it touches our deepest insecurities:
Cloth or disposable, breast-feeding or bottle, co-sleeping or crib, potty training by when, spanking or not-spanking, etc.
I’m not saying that there aren’t good answers to all of these (and I certainly have my opinions), but people do get “over-the-top” in how they state their opinions because of this deep fear that maybe, just maybe, the choice they made wasn’t the best one for their kids.
So, we hear “abuse” in association with spanking. We hear it for those who didn’t breast-feed (or do it long enough or who did it too long), and so on.
Not only that, but many people are trying way too hard to NOT be like their own parents. So, they will often go too far to the other side, whatever that other side may be.
Just some observations as a long-time parent who’s been on a lot of parenting lists. Most lists ban the spanking discussion all together, because it usually becomes very, very heated.
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TRS — agreed spanking children over 6 is counterproductive for a number of reasons. One, they want to know the logic behind it. Second, they go to school and know its not the norm. Third, routine should have been established by now. Luckily routine is a continuous adapting project that one can still use well into the early teens. Thus corporal punishment has no place in schools for the very age factor you raise.
However, I would argue instead of imprinting your authority on them through spanking you can imprint your authority by routine and love. A bit idealistic but to this day my daughter will not go to bed unless I say “good-night, i love you.” A routine I established the day she was born. So what, you may think — but for her this has special meaning — it also happens to be her first complete sentence as she copied me one night. We’ve now developed a family myth which bonds us. A common past, a common practice and a common language.
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When your wife and 13 to 17 year old daughter are yelling at each other and you finally have enough and try to break it up, do not ever say ” I would like to talk to the adult here but I hear talking to yourself is the first sign of going nuts like you two.”
It does get quiet, you do get their attention, they do focus in on you and what you just said – but only for the shortest of moments – then all hell breaks loose, nuclear winter starts and you have gallop out of the stable into a pasture far, far away or risk glowing in the dark and having the wool fall off your flea bitten hide.
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So, because of the “slippery slope” possibility, then:
We shouldn’t allow driving because some people drive poorly and kill others in accidents.
We shouldn’t allow drinking because some people get drunk.
We shouldn’t allow eating junk food, because some people over-indulge.
We shouldn’t allow holidays, because some people have a hard time getting back on task.
We shouldn’t allow religion, because some religions become cults.
We shouldn’t allow free speech, because some people will use words to hurt others.
We shouldn’t allow voting, because sometimes there is voter fraud.
And, so on and so on.
The “slippery slope” argument is one that can deter freedom and liberty faster than any other, because *anything* can be taken to an extreme.
It is also the most ridiculous in this case, because the VAST majority of parents love their children and won’t turn spanking into abuse anymore than they’ll turn “time outs” into years of locking a child in the closet, or yelling into verbal abuse.
And, for those who will abuse, they will do it whether or not spanking is accepted or not.
After all, we don’t accept whipping and closet-locking, and abusive parents do these things anyway.
Honestly, it gets tiresome.
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However, I would argue instead of imprinting your authority on them through spanking you can imprint your authority by routine and love.
*******But, there is a HUGE assumption here that such things don’t also exist in the family who spanks. So, how about “in addition to teaching them respect and control through occasional corporal punishment, you can also imprint your authority by routine and love.”
We have many, many family routines and family traditions. Where would you get the idea otherwise?
For example, I pray with my kids before bed on Mondays, Wednesday, Fridays, and every other Sunday. My husband prays with them on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays, and the opposite Sundays to me. They don’t like to go to bed if we don’t “put them to bed” and pray with them. This includes my 16 year old, who misses us terribly on the few nights we say, “Just go to bed and say your own prayers. It’s late.”
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I guess you probably won’t believe this, but I never yelled or screamed at my sons, either (neither did their Dad). This came up in conversation not too long ago and I actually asked them if either could ever remember one of their parents raising their voice (as a discipline measure), and they said they could not. Just wanted you to know that wasn’t the alternative. Same example as the policeman – he doesn’t yell and scream when he pulls you over, either.
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HRW, I have taken away his TV, outdoor play, weekly trip to the park. and a dozen favorite toys in one session and he has still refused to budge. Those things are too far in the future to get through to him when he is really mad. The only thing that works it immediate punishment.
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#51
Llama for the very first time since I’ve frequented this site I could actually relate and understand what you said. Been there, done that, and lost my shirt in the end.
#52 In some instance the slippery slope is absurd but in the case of children left alone with people who no one would question, the slope is indeed slippery. As I think all teachers would agree, people should have a license to have kids and some would never past the test.
#53 agreed, my claim is that you need not add corporal punishment if you have everything else. You seem to have everything in place, why the need for anything else.
#54
I’m extremely impressed – that said — children tend to imitate their parents through genetics and role modeling and hence, if you were quiet to begin with things may just continue to roll into place.
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kbells — you have my sympathy — he sounds like me when I was young. My parents who were “old school” and religious ended up taking me to a psychologist. After a series of tests he discovered I was extremely intelligent (today they would also say I was ADHD and put me on drugs), this discovery didn’t help my behavior but I think it helped people understand it more. My parents continued in that vein cooperating with schools and others but I don’t think helped other than growing up.
Anyway, in the end, no matter what the methodology, all parents can do is plug away, be consistent and hope that sometime in the future they turn the corner. I’m not entirely happy with my daughter’s behavior especially toward her mother who is frustrated. Yet I continue to work with her to turn the corner so she and her mom have a better relationship. I also think this problem would still be there with or without corporal punishment.
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Well, Mommy, in all the years I taught (14), substituted (2), student-taught (2), teacher aided (4), taught Sunday School (4), led a girls’ scouting group (3), amongst many, many other child-centered activities…I have never met a parent who didn’t yell at least on occasion.
But, if you didn’t yell…then great. I would most definitely say, though, that you are an anomaly.
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As I think all teachers would agree, people should have a license to have kids and some would never past the test.
*****Agreed. But, I don’t see how the “slippery slope” applies. These are the parents who will abuse ANYWAY…whether or not there are “rules” or laws or whatever. And, it punishes the vast majority who use corporal punishment correctly.
I worked for a lady who had a 1 year old. She put him in a car seat, because the law said to. But, he could crawl out at will because she never tightened the straps, and because she had no control over him. So, the “law” told her to do something, and she “supposedly” complied…but not really.
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It is never a good idea to get between a parent and a child or a husband and a wife, or in between ANY two arguing people, unless you are trying to protect one from physical violence. (And, that is still going to be dangerous and should only be done if you are ABSOLUTELY certain that one is going to hurt the other badly!)
Plus, I don’t think that one parent should take authority away from another by correcting him or her in front of the child.
This would be a case of “could we talk in the other room” as soon as things are calm enough.
But, I will admit to having corrected my husband in front of the kids before. Still, I will also admit that it was a mistake.
Fortunately, my daughter isn’t yet old enough for the traditional mother/daughter disagreements, and I hope they will never happen.
Interestingly, I always had a great relationship with my mom, but it was with my dad that I would have the big arguments.
So, the Mom/daughter difficulties don’t have to happen.
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#59 If you can’t control a one year old no law will help you.
#60 I do try to back up my wife but even then both will turn on me so I retreat to the couch and a good book.
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The kids may ask for spankings to be brought back. As bad as things are getting with kids today, a lot of them are probably “into being spanked”.
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Should corporal punishment be used in the classroom or is it best used at home? What a ridiculous leading question.
It’s best when it is not used AT ALL.
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Mommy,
I don’t know much about your belief system, but a very good reason to consider spanking legitimate (whether or not your own kids ever needed it) is that God commanded that parents spank kids when necessary. That’s good enough for me, and enough reason to know that all the silly studies are useless. That and the fact that most of today’s kids are unhappy, feel unloved, and are largely out of control–and the kids I know who can’t be described like this are spanked kids. Something is wrong in today’s parenting, and in today’s kids having respect for authority. I have a hunch that an unspanked generation is a big part of the problem.
HRW, your contempt for authority doesn’t seem to have been caused by the spanking; it seems simply not to have been effectively handled by spanking. I shouldn’t have implied that no kid who is spanked by a wise adult will ever be a trouble maker, but that for the most part the biggest trouble makers are not effectively under authority, and generally that includes the fact that they are not spanked (or not spanked effectively). But some kids are rebellious, whether or not they are spanked.
HRW, #48, “The slippery slope aspect has allowed for a level of abuse to become acceptable.” Huh? Considering that even well-regulated spanking is often not “acceptable,” and child abuse certainly isn’t, this is a demonstrably false argument.
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Correction needs to start early, not AFTER the temper tantrums have become a problem.
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul. Proverbs 29:15, 17
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Proverbs 13:24
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. Proverbs 19:18
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
Withhold not correction from the child: for if though beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Proverbs 23:13
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul. Proverbs 29:15 – 17
Too many kids are not corrected as young children – when parents divorce the problem becomes more pronounced. Children who tug on one, because they can have their own way, WITHOUT discipline are a tough match for any parent or teacher.
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I was never paddled, spanked or hit in school, and I never heard of that happening. I was, however, fearful of my parents finding out I did something wrong in school, so I behaved there. They always told us to remember that what we do reflects on them and not sully the family name.
I did misbehave at home and suffered the consequences.
I don’t think a teacher should strike a child, but I do believe in sending the kid to the principal’s office ASAP. There should be consequences from kindergarten on so that even if a kid gets away with everything at home, he/she at least knows it’s not done that way in polite society.
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Everyone gets one free “Random you are so condescending” card to use free on me.
I think this is a much more serious and thoughtful comment thread than typically found on WOW. I don’t agree with some of the comments, but I don’t have my usual “why in the world are you posting” reaction.
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NJL in schools of close to a 1000 students — principals have very little time for the day to day discipline. They are not fond of teachers who send each discipline problem to the office.
Victoria/Cherly given that these are OT verses to be consistent we would also stone adulterers and stop eating pork.
But some kids are rebellious, whether or not they are spanked.
Which has been my point — effective discipline and child rearing makes spanking a non-issue since it won’t be necessary. From my post #10 It doesn’t work on those on whom it is used but works on those who don’t receive it.
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#10 HRW
“It doesn’t work on those on whom it is used…”
It sure worked on me! In 7th gr Aaron Bloom and I were sent to the office for “fighting”. We both got a swat and have been friends ever since. I didn’t resent the swat. I wasn’t mad at Aaron. I just didn’t want another one.
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I was in a Sunday School class on parenting once, when a friend said, “I might as well tell you that my wife and I don’t believe in spanking.” It was all I could do to keep from saying, “I might as well tell you we can tell!”
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When parents love their children and chastise their children biblically, the children will respond in a biblical fashion. They will learn quickly to obey and honor their parents.
I have a sister who has a little terror. He hits everyone, including his parents. He’s only 3 years old and already uncontrollable. The loving and biblical way to deal with him is to get his attention immediately with something he understands. Pain…firmly applied to his behind as a consequence to disobedience. A thin dowel rod would work miracles in their situation. I believe pain may be a gift from God.
My parents didn’t discipline my siblings and me biblically nor lovingly when we were growing up. I didn’t experience physical pain from their correction methods but our relationship suffered. I suffered. Temporary pain should be preferable to suffering that lasts.
I’m not sure what to think about corporal punishment in schools. When parents give authority over their children to others, then the authority figure needs to do what is necessary.
Schools are social projects that bring just as many problems as they try to solve.
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HRW
Have you ever considered that you might not be right?
Is there only one way to raise children?
If there is only one way, which way is it?
Does this one right way always work?
How is it that you found this one right way to raise children since you weren’t raised that way?
Please move to the US so Obama can appoint you Secretary of Education. You don’t have to be born a US citizen. Think Henry Kissinger, Alexander Hamilton, Arnold the Governator!
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Bob, you do make me smile. Only YOU could have written that post.
Every kid you had as your student, was a fortunate little monster, even if they didn’t understand it at the time.
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CherlyD (@ 64): God did not COMMAND spanking. The only references are in Proverbs, which are sayings, not commands. Proverbs also says it is better for a man to live on his roof than in the house with a nagging wife. Is that a command?
I don’t care what you call it; you can call it “loving with the palm of your hand” if you want. But spanking is hitting a child and I don’t think it should ever be done.
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75 – The use of the rod teaches children that sin brings pain – immense pain – ultimately eternal pain if they continue in unrepentance. Spare the rod and spoil the child may not be God giving a command, but what he is saying is, if you don’t use it, your child will come to ruin. If it’s God talking (and it is) we need to listen. The conditions for obedience and disobedience in Deut 28 aren’t all commands either, but the consequences are nonetheless real.
A parent who does not use the rod hates his child. The Bible also says that. How many times does God need to say something in order for it to be true? We know the answer, even pagans do.
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Sorry, I meant to post to 74!
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Both of my now grown children who were spanked in their preschool years when it was warranted, have thanked my husband and I for spanking them when they needed it. (Usually after being exposed to some wild and out of control child whose parents try to reason with 3 year olds.) When I’m exposed to such children who run roughshod over their parents, it makes me want to slap the parents first.
My two nieces were never spanked or disciplined effectively, and they are people I don’t enjoy being around, especially when their parents are present. The behavior just gets worse.
One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned except once, and that is both parents have to back one another up, whenther they agree or not with the discipline taking place at the time. The time for discussion is behind closed doors and NEVER EVER in front of the children. It doesn’t take children long to figure out how to play both ends against the middle. That’s the problem with the nieces. They play Mom and Dad against each other all the time. It’s very ugly.
I never had to spank my children once they were about kindergarten age. And there were times when I refrained from spanking because of my own state of mind at the time. Never spank a child when you are frustrated or exasperated. And I did resort to other things during those times. I once put myself in time out (locked myself in the bathroom with a magazine while the child had a tantrum outside the door. – I knew exactly where the child was and what she was doing – and didn’t come out until the child spent herself and calmed down.)
All this is to say that my children never suffered any ill effects from being spanked.
And I don’t think shcools should do it, but parents should back up the school when their kids are wrong.
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Well, Mommy, not having children, I haven’t actually studied the spanking passages. I think there are some outside of Proverbs, but I may be wrong. Even if Proverbs is all there is, and you’re right that that would mean they aren’t commands…it’s still something that Proverbs indicates should be done. And you’re saying it shouldn’t–on what authority? You’re still lining up your personal preference against the Word of God.
Proverbs may not exactly be commands, but it does give wisdom from God. (Much of what the Bible says about drunkenness, for instance, is in Proverbs–possibly all that it says about drunkenness. And there definitely is stuff in other places about prostitution, but much of it is in Proverbs. May we simply disregard it, if it’s a principle and not a command? Of course not!)
Think about it, please. If the Bible says one thing, even as “just” a proverb, you aren’t biblically allowed to say the opposite.
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CHERYL D. Not only is spanking still practiced in many Southern schools, so is prayer. You’ll hear public prayer in classrooms, on the PA, in assemblies, in gyms, and at commencements. When people complain about no prayer in schools, they actually complain about the lack of official prayer, not the absence of the practice. Prayers are as ubiquitous as weed along the railroad.
–
My baby spanked me when she was not yet two. I spanked her first: crayons on the wall, it didn’t hurt. She looked at me like I’d lost my mind. “Who cares if a kid breaks a rule if Daddy breaks The Rule?” Happily, we never spanked each other again.
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#72 —
Have you ever considered that you might not be right? Is there only one way to raise children?
I agree, there are shades of gray to almost every issue. Being dogmatic on any issue creates problems. Similar to Obama and the abortion question in Saddleback, I agree we need to be nuanced and flexible in our positions. However, we each have principles that we generally follow and its that consistency which is important. From the comments of TRS on this thread, I get the impression she is doing an amazing job raising her children and in her hands spanking is not an issue. I also think its unnecessary since she seems to be doing the other things right. However, the blanket statement that spanking is appropriate gives power to those who don’t use it properly ie parents who may not be controlled and loving in their approach. In this case, we need to err on the side of the child’s safety and establish the basic principle that spanking is abuse. Call it a utilitarian principle but I feel safer eliminating the practice rather than having 1 in 1000 parents practise spanking inappropriately and thus need supervision.
If there is only one way, which way is it?Does this one right way always work?
There isn’t one correct way on most issues — I would argue for shades of gray, flexibility and pragmatism. I think you would agree the tendency for absolutist positions is on the right (tough leadership) not the left (wishy-washy).
How is it that you found this one right way to raise children since you weren’t raised that way?
Because I’m brilliant and have learned from the previous generation’s many errors
I’m sure as teens most people have swore at least once they would be better than their parents.
Please move to the US so Obama can appoint you Secretary of Education. You don’t have to be born a US citizen. Think Henry Kissinger, Alexander Hamilton, Arnold the Governator!
No need for a Sec’y of Education — make it a state responsibility and give them one year to come up with a common standard or threaten to do it for them. No give me the Treasury.
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#77
And there were times when I refrained from spanking because of my own state of mind at the time. Never spank a child when you are frustrated or exasperated.
Unfortunately we can’t trust that all parents will be this judicial.
I never had to spank my children once they were about kindergarten age.
Agreed, whatever value spanking has it ends by SK but again I doubt most people can make the smooth transition to parenting without force.
One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned except once, and that is both parents have to back one another up, whenther they agree or not with the discipline taking place at the time
This is probably the biggest problem and renders the issue of spanking moot. Whether you spank or not, lack of consistency will be a problem. In addition to parents on the same page, the schools and the parents need to be on the same page.
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My husband and I spank our kids when needed, and we haven’t needed to in months–even for the preschooler). The Bible is right–undisciplined (unspanked) children are a shame to their mothers–I’ve seen it at church, in play groups, in stores, at friends’ homes…
I’ve mentored some younger moms at the end of their ropes with their young children. The mothers are desperate for help–they love their children, but can’t control them.
In one particular case, I counseled the mom (who thought she was spanking, but she was just swatting unpredictably) to spank Biblically, calmly, and immediately when disobeyed. She started taking the child aside calmly, right away, and spanking firmly, and behold, the child started to behave better! And the improvement has lasted!
Another couple, who has a toddler who was generally sweet, but whined a lot, visited for a weekend. My husband and I encouraged them to give her a little spank for the whining.
The mom called back later that week–the first day home she felt like she spanked all day, day 2 was about 1/2 that, and day 3 was a delight for the first time in a very long time. She and her daughter can play together now instead of enduring many time-outs.
The changes I have witnessed, and the fruit in our own family, makes me thankful for the wisdom in Proverbs that shows us how to help our children learn self control!
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#80 HRW
“Similar to Obama and the abortion question in Saddleback, I agree we need to be nuanced and flexible in our positions.”
Abortion is death. How can you be “nuanced” about death?
“In this case, we need to err on the side of the child’s safety and establish the basic principle that spanking is abuse.”
I don’t agree.
” I think you would agree the tendency for absolutist positions is on the right (tough leadership)…”
Mao (Commune – ist)
Stalin (Commune – ist)
Hitler (Nazi=National Socialist German Workers Party)
Pol Pot (Commune – ist)
No, HRW, I don’t agree.
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The question is when does human life begin — when scientist don’t agree, nuanced answers are possible. Some advocate at fertilization, others at birth, and most somewhere in the middle. There are many issues to consider: viability, communicative ability, cellular growth and death, vestigial parts, resemblance, etc that arguments can be made for any standard.
The tendency for absolutist positions is more prevalent in the American right today than the left. The talking points of the Republican party – tough enough, decisive, leadership, forceful, unequivocal, etc whereas the Democratic candidate (no matter the election ) is more often labeled whishy washy, weak, conciliatory, etc.
Right — Salazar, Pinochet, Franco, Mussolini, Greek military, Argentian military, Hirohito, Petain, and Hitler (he’s yours — he purged the socialist element to gain the corporate support he needed)
Left — Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Ceassucu
I say its a toss up but the military involvement tends to be a right wing phenomenon.
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I was generally a good little boy, but my parents did need to spank me once in a while. When they did, I knew I deserved it. I’m glad for the training I received through spanking. Done properly, as Klasko, TRS, and others have described, it’s probably the most effective means for disciplining little kids. It’s not a method used INSTEAD OF love, nor is it an ADDITION to love; it’s part of love, provided that it’s done properly, of course.
I’m not sure about spanking in schools; I tend to think that it’s place is in the home rather than at school.
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I was slapped by a teacher in school once. I had started laughing when the teacher was angry and then couldn’t stop. I was not trying to be smart and didn’t deserve it. I never did tell my folks. It really didn’t seem to be a big deal.
I was very seldom spanked as a child, but my brothers sure were. I remember being spanked once when I had done nothing wrong. I was not particularly bothered about it, but a cousin who was with me, was very bothered and mentioned my innocence to her mom. She told my mom and my mom actually apologized. I was amazed.
I spanked my children very rarely and when they were quite young. The second child hardly ever neeeded a spanking. One look was enough.
I tried another method of discipline that our church and county taught. It was much more painful emotionally and ineffective in the long run.
My third child was born later and was spanked the least. She had temper tantrums particularly in public, until one day I finally spanked her in a quasi public place. The bad behavior tapered off. It had been months of nonsense and pain for not only us, but also for anyone else having to put up with her tantrums. That is a story in itself.
My advice would be to never spank if it isn’t needed. Get lots of ideas from others and use whatever works with your child. They are all different. I do agree that a well-place swat on the bottom or hand, in the right manner and in the right time, can be a lot less painful than other things. By the time a child is school age, spanking shouldn’t be necessary very often, if ever.
A shepherd’s rod was used to protect the sheep and guide them. It was not used to beat the sheep, unless it had to be directed away from danger.
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#84 HRW
“The question is when does human life begin — when scientist don’t agree, nuanced answers are possible. “
I am nuanced. It seems to me that there are only two points of contention as to when human life begins; when an egg is fertilized or when the baby is born. Death can come at either point.
Again, I am so old that I remember when people thought that if a couple of people got pregnant they then got married. They got married “for the child.”
Is it really so bad to wait to have sex until after you get married?
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It seems to me that there are only two points of contention as to when human life begins; when an egg is fertilized or when the baby is born. Death can come at either point.
I see human life as starting a long a continuum that is there is no one point in time when the cells change from non-human to human. Somewhere along the third trimester, the fetus starts to attain enough human characteristics to be considered fully human. The defintion of person and hence rights is to be left by the courts — a Solomon like task. So yes there is nuances to the discussion.
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#88 HRW
“…there is no one point in time when the cells change from non-human to human.”
Since both sperm and egg are fully human and contain nothing non-human, how can you say that “…the cells change from non-human to human.”?
What in the world were they?
It seems that your “nuances” are just so much smoke in the breeze.
I’m outta here!
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If your still here pentamom, I found your case for calm, dispassionate spanking compelling. It’s biblical and it works.
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#90,
Thanks–it is biblical, and it does work! (If it didn’t, I’m not sure I could have stood to have so many children!)
God tells us that children are a blessing, and then He teaches us how to do our part to make that evident!
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