Comments on: Is your church a hospital or a courtroom? http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/ A forum for discussion of news that arises at the intersection of Christianity and culture. Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:02:38 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Karen O http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338703 Karen O Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:47:41 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338703 I think the hospital aspect can be applied to a church <i>after</i> one's sin has been repented of. Often, sin leaves behind a lot of wounds that need to be healed. The scripture that comes to mind is the one that says that He comes to heal the broken-hearted, binding up their wounds. I think the hospital aspect can be applied to a church after one’s sin has been repented of. Often, sin leaves behind a lot of wounds that need to be healed.

The scripture that comes to mind is the one that says that He comes to heal the broken-hearted, binding up their wounds.

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]]> By: Xion http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338525 Xion Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:29:30 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338525 I wrote a letter to John MacArthur asking him to write a book on Grace. He has written on nearly every subject. His ministry is called 'Grace To You', yet not a single title did he dedicate to the central message of the gospel. I never got a response. I don't fault MacArthur. I love his teaching. But it serves as another example of how unimportant the central message of the Gospel has become in evangelical Christianity. Looking through the lens of grace has changed me profoundly and changes the way I view scripture. For example, most people read the Beatitudes as things to do. Try and be meek and be a peacemaker so that we can EARN the blessings. But God's favor cannot be earned, because then it is no longer grace. (Rom 11:6) Instead, read the Beatitudes from a perspective of grace. These poor, oppressed and persecuted people humbled by Roman occupation stood on the shores of Galilee and listened to their Messiah declare, Blessed are you who are humbled and persecuted. Persecuted people certainly aren't blessed. So why were these people blessed? Because their Savior had arrived. He was standing right there with them. The Beatitudes and all of scripture are about Christ, the Messiah. We are blessed because of him. You see, the scriptures now become Christ-centric, lavishing praise on him, rather than a book of rules and regulations. When I say that grace changed my life, this is what I mean. I no longer have a desire to compare myself with others or look down on sinners, because we're all in the same boat. Instead, I'd rather help them and build them up. Does this mean I have changed from a Courtroom to a Hospital? Not really. I am no longer legalistic, but I oppose the thinking that says that sin is some sort of disorder or malady, because that removes the responsibility. If you sin, you can't blame anyone or anything other than yourself. Both the Courtroom and Hospital are man-centric. It is speaking of how a church behaves. But the gospel is not about us. The good news is not what we have done but what Christ has done. He came to save sinners of whom I am chief. Only Christ sets us apart, for those who believe in him. Now instead of bitterness about laws and sin management, I have joy unspeakable realizing that Christ loves me just as I am. What a load off that is! So the church should be neither Courtroom (legalistic) or a Hospital (treating sin a disorder). Church should be a place where sinners get together and praise God for his great blessing upon those who do not deserve it! I wrote a letter to John MacArthur asking him to write a book on Grace. He has written on nearly every subject. His ministry is called ‘Grace To You’, yet not a single title did he dedicate to the central message of the gospel. I never got a response.

I don’t fault MacArthur. I love his teaching. But it serves as another example of how unimportant the central message of the Gospel has become in evangelical Christianity.

Looking through the lens of grace has changed me profoundly and changes the way I view scripture. For example, most people read the Beatitudes as things to do. Try and be meek and be a peacemaker so that we can EARN the blessings. But God’s favor cannot be earned, because then it is no longer grace. (Rom 11:6)

Instead, read the Beatitudes from a perspective of grace. These poor, oppressed and persecuted people humbled by Roman occupation stood on the shores of Galilee and listened to their Messiah declare, Blessed are you who are humbled and persecuted. Persecuted people certainly aren’t blessed. So why were these people blessed? Because their Savior had arrived. He was standing right there with them. The Beatitudes and all of scripture are about Christ, the Messiah. We are blessed because of him.

You see, the scriptures now become Christ-centric, lavishing praise on him, rather than a book of rules and regulations.

When I say that grace changed my life, this is what I mean. I no longer have a desire to compare myself with others or look down on sinners, because we’re all in the same boat. Instead, I’d rather help them and build them up.

Does this mean I have changed from a Courtroom to a Hospital? Not really. I am no longer legalistic, but I oppose the thinking that says that sin is some sort of disorder or malady, because that removes the responsibility. If you sin, you can’t blame anyone or anything other than yourself.

Both the Courtroom and Hospital are man-centric. It is speaking of how a church behaves. But the gospel is not about us. The good news is not what we have done but what Christ has done. He came to save sinners of whom I am chief. Only Christ sets us apart, for those who believe in him. Now instead of bitterness about laws and sin management, I have joy unspeakable realizing that Christ loves me just as I am. What a load off that is!

So the church should be neither Courtroom (legalistic) or a Hospital (treating sin a disorder). Church should be a place where sinners get together and praise God for his great blessing upon those who do not deserve it!

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]]> By: Xion http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338514 Xion Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:01:24 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338514 Thanks EYG. In preparation for teaching on grace I came across a statement from Martin Lloyd-Jones who said something like, "If you are teaching about grace and people aren't angry with you, then you really aren't teaching it!" Most in the class welcomed the idea. A few got very angry and vocal. I took that as a sign that I was really teaching grace! I handled them graciously. :-) I came to discover that grace is a difficult subject that many churches have relegated to hymns, but it is otherwise forgotten. How much grace is too much? Should we sin that grace may abound? etc. It is difficult, but according to Paul Grace is the Gospel (Acts 20:24; Gal 1:6). So why then is it so rare to hear? How can anyone preach the NT without oozing grace out of every pore? God's kindness to those who didn't deserve it is the Good News! Why then are we so nasty toward sinners? Our church organized a march against homosexuality on the state house. I was appalled! I suggested to a few people we should march against our own self-righteousness. Preaching works to sinners is another gospel, not the gospel of Christ. Another time my closest friend who is now a pastor was ministering with his wife to many single women and prostitutes. Many of these women came to Christ and began attending our church. The reaction of the other wives at the church was to be mean to them and guard their husbands like hawks. The men wouldn't look them in the eye for fear of 'lusting'. As a result, these women felt shunned and eventually left. IS THAT THE GOSPEL? IS THAT HOW CHRIST WOULD HAVE TREATED THEM!! Arrrrrgggghhh! We talked about these things in my class. It was overwhelming positive. However, the church buckled down and became even more legalistic. Some of the people in my class have since moved on to other churches. It is sad, because that was not my intent. I simply wanted us to be more like Christ. Is that so wrong? :-) Thanks EYG. In preparation for teaching on grace I came across a statement from Martin Lloyd-Jones who said something like, “If you are teaching about grace and people aren’t angry with you, then you really aren’t teaching it!”

Most in the class welcomed the idea. A few got very angry and vocal. I took that as a sign that I was really teaching grace! I handled them graciously. :-)

I came to discover that grace is a difficult subject that many churches have relegated to hymns, but it is otherwise forgotten. How much grace is too much? Should we sin that grace may abound? etc. It is difficult, but according to Paul Grace is the Gospel (Acts 20:24; Gal 1:6). So why then is it so rare to hear? How can anyone preach the NT without oozing grace out of every pore?

God’s kindness to those who didn’t deserve it is the Good News! Why then are we so nasty toward sinners? Our church organized a march against homosexuality on the state house. I was appalled! I suggested to a few people we should march against our own self-righteousness. Preaching works to sinners is another gospel, not the gospel of Christ.

Another time my closest friend who is now a pastor was ministering with his wife to many single women and prostitutes. Many of these women came to Christ and began attending our church. The reaction of the other wives at the church was to be mean to them and guard their husbands like hawks. The men wouldn’t look them in the eye for fear of ‘lusting’. As a result, these women felt shunned and eventually left. IS THAT THE GOSPEL? IS THAT HOW CHRIST WOULD HAVE TREATED THEM!! Arrrrrgggghhh!

We talked about these things in my class. It was overwhelming positive. However, the church buckled down and became even more legalistic. Some of the people in my class have since moved on to other churches. It is sad, because that was not my intent. I simply wanted us to be more like Christ. Is that so wrong? :-)

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]]> By: EYG http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338234 EYG Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:54:18 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338234 I know what you mean, Xion. How was your class received? Perhaps your church is ready for a little reformation? I go to a reformed church, but I haven't thought about grace for a while. I've heard too much bickering. My soul and my heart are exhausted. It's usually only a few, but I find the wieght of it to be very, very, heavy on my heart. I pray that you and your wife, and that we, would sit under life giving teaching and that we can be contagious that way. Peace to you (and me! O Lord.) I know what you mean, Xion.

How was your class received? Perhaps your church is ready for a little reformation?

I go to a reformed church, but I haven’t thought about grace for a while. I’ve heard too much bickering. My soul and my heart are exhausted.

It’s usually only a few, but I find the wieght of it to be very, very, heavy on my heart.

I pray that you and your wife, and that we, would sit under life giving teaching and that we can be contagious that way.

Peace to you (and me! O Lord.)

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]]> By: EYG http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338233 EYG Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:50:12 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338233 My heart lept, too, Michelle. And to answer this question... it's a little of both. It depends who I'm standing next to... Funny how you can get hurt at a church. There is <b>no</b> church like a church hurt. It is perhaps, ironic that the place to go to heal from a church hurt is to the Lord. And then...to church. :-S My heart lept, too, Michelle.

And to answer this question… it’s a little of both. It depends who I’m standing next to…

Funny how you can get hurt at a church. There is no church like a church hurt. It is perhaps, ironic that the place to go to heal from a church hurt is to the Lord. And then…to church.

:-S

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]]> By: Xion http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-338200 Xion Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:07:48 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-338200 Thanks Tony for this post. As Michelle said, my heart lept when I saw it. You and I seem to think alike. The book <i>What's so Amazing About Grace</i> changed my life. I don't think it is a particularly good book, but it caused me to look more closely at the contrast between Christ and the Church, which I suddenly realized was vast in my case. The church we've attended for the last 20 years is scriptural sound, but misses grace by a mile. I did not realize this until I taught a class there on grace. Grace means kindness to those who don't deserve it. Then I taught a class on John where we noticed the stark contrast between how Christ treated sinners and how we do. Our church is all about us. It is all about what we do. It is all about sin management, i.e. everyone reducing their pile of sin to make God happy. It is a works based system to earn God's favor. But we cannot <i>earn</i> God's favor. Anything we earn is no longer grace. Grace is not about what we have done, but what Christ has done. I finally realized that God's grace is all about Him, but our church is all about us. So my wife and I are adrift a bit at the moment. We realize that no church is perfect, but we are so tired of the sin management business. We are looking for neither a court nor a hospital. We are looking for a place to worship the Lord of Hosts for all he has done for us. Any place works for us, but we would like to fellowship with like-minded people. Still searching. Thanks Tony for this post. As Michelle said, my heart lept when I saw it. You and I seem to think alike.

The book What’s so Amazing About Grace changed my life. I don’t think it is a particularly good book, but it caused me to look more closely at the contrast between Christ and the Church, which I suddenly realized was vast in my case.

The church we’ve attended for the last 20 years is scriptural sound, but misses grace by a mile. I did not realize this until I taught a class there on grace. Grace means kindness to those who don’t deserve it. Then I taught a class on John where we noticed the stark contrast between how Christ treated sinners and how we do.

Our church is all about us. It is all about what we do. It is all about sin management, i.e. everyone reducing their pile of sin to make God happy. It is a works based system to earn God’s favor. But we cannot earn God’s favor. Anything we earn is no longer grace.

Grace is not about what we have done, but what Christ has done. I finally realized that God’s grace is all about Him, but our church is all about us.

So my wife and I are adrift a bit at the moment. We realize that no church is perfect, but we are so tired of the sin management business. We are looking for neither a court nor a hospital. We are looking for a place to worship the Lord of Hosts for all he has done for us. Any place works for us, but we would like to fellowship with like-minded people. Still searching.

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]]> By: ZACHARYFARINA http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-337932 ZACHARYFARINA Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:28:26 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-337932 Provocative story. The answer may be much more simple than you think. The Hebrew word (that we translate as "Judge") means, DELIVERER. So, the Judges of Israel weren't notable for executing guilty, or innocent verdicts. Instead, at great risk to themselves, they extended themselves for the innocent victims in Israel. Still, you are obviously a great thinker. I don't know if my Hebrew teacher would appreciate this, but I will give you his e-mail (rmilligan@homeschoolhebrew.com). I do this because, I think you can get more mileage out of your questions. I think you can take it even further. Provocative story. The answer may be much more simple than you think. The Hebrew word (that we translate as “Judge”) means, DELIVERER. So, the Judges of Israel weren’t notable for executing guilty, or innocent verdicts. Instead, at great risk to themselves, they extended themselves for the innocent victims in Israel. Still, you are obviously a great thinker. I don’t know if my Hebrew teacher would appreciate this, but I will give you his e-mail (rmilligan@homeschoolhebrew.com). I do this because, I think you can get more mileage out of your questions. I think you can take it even further.

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]]> By: Joel Mark http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-335434 Joel Mark Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:04:27 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-335434 "Is your church a hospital or a courtroom?" Two lousy choices I would say. Hospitals are obsessed with building, building, building and money, money, money. They are constantly doing building projects and programs and they demand money for their healing services. Courtrooms are also very expensive, win or lose. And they are sooooo legalistic! “Is your church a hospital or a courtroom?”

Two lousy choices I would say.

Hospitals are obsessed with building, building, building and money, money, money. They are constantly doing building projects and programs and they demand money for their healing services.

Courtrooms are also very expensive, win or lose. And they are sooooo legalistic!

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]]> By: klasko http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-335003 klasko Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:03:39 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-335003 Jonny - Yes, pain is inevitible, and there the pain of injury and then there is healing pain, post surgery. Having felt both types, (Back and knee surgery), the difference between the two is huge. Unfortunately, many people can't tell the difference betwen the two and all pain is bad. They forget that we are called into fellowship with Christ, and at times that includes the fellowship of His suffering. That is a privilege. Jonny – Yes, pain is inevitible, and there the pain of injury and then there is healing pain, post surgery. Having felt both types, (Back and knee surgery), the difference between the two is huge. Unfortunately, many people can’t tell the difference betwen the two and all pain is bad. They forget that we are called into fellowship with Christ, and at times that includes the fellowship of His suffering. That is a privilege.

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]]> By: David L. http://online.worldmag.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-334999 David L. Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:48:16 +0000 http://www.worldontheweb.com/2008/08/22/is-your-church-a-hospital-or-a-courtroom/#comment-334999 A courtroom. A courtroom.

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