Mickey Mouse?
The New York Times yesterday had a long, loving profile of a teacher who explains evolution to evangelical kids disposed to criticize the doctrine. Times reporter Amy Harmon tells how the teacher “started with Mickey Mouse. On the projector, Mr. Campbell placed slides of the cartoon icon: one at his skinny genesis in 1928; one from his 1940 turn as the impish Sorcerer’s Apprentice; and another of the rounded, ingratiating charmer of Mouse Club fame.”
When Campbell asks whether Mickey had changed, students call out answers: Tail gets shorter, eyes get bigger, he looks cuter. The teacher has made his point: “Mickey evolved,” he said. “And Mickey gets cuter because Walt Disney makes more money that way.” Journalist Harmon evidently thinks she had made her point: The kids are able to see how things evolve, and later on the teacher will “get to the touchier part, about how the minute changes in organisms that drive biological change arise spontaneously, without direction. And how a struggle for existence among naturally varying individuals has helped to generate every species, living and extinct, on the planet.”
Game, set, match? Not exactly, for two reasons. First, Mickey’s change is microevolution (change within kinds) rather than macroevolution (change from one kind to another). No one doubts that microevolution occurs: Look at dogs, for example. Darwinists who argue for macroevolution often give microevolution examples to purportedly prove changes. The famous “proof” of moths changing colors as pollution darkened trees was actually a fake, but it could have happened—and that would prove nothing about Darwinism, which postulates that one kind of creature over time and through chance will change into another kind.
Secondly, Mickey’s change was not a matter of chance, but the product of intelligent design by Walt Disney, who was not God although some called him so.


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back to top41 Comments to “Mickey Mouse?”
The moth thing never happened? I always believed it!
As individuals we change and grow and adapt, so it doesn’t bother me if a species makes changes, too. It would seem the process was built in by God.
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Its in most elementary science books as the standard example of adaptation.
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It is also worth keeping in mind, that the reason the Times featured this teacher is that he also wrote the standards for Florida. So the question is, can he walk as well as talk? By most lights, he came across as a teacher who really worked hard in the classroom (even if there was some rather excessive cheerleading in the article).
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NJ Lawyer, re the moth thing: that particular moth doesn’t rest on tree trunks at all, so they glued dead moths to tree trunks and photographed them. Horrid, huh? (Art, maybe, but hardly good science!!)
As I was reading this essay, I kept thinking about what Marvin said at the end–that Mickey’s modification is evidence of design, not naturalism. Very, very lame.
Furthermore, from what I understand of DNA, it’s the nail in the coffin for macroevolution: Not only are mutations usually harmful, but they change what is already there. They never add new material. For instance, it doesn’t matter how much breeding you do, if you want a green dog, you’ll have to dye it. “Green” simply isn’t in the genes for dogs, and never will be. Feathers aren’t in the genes for lizards, and no possible modification of scales will ever create them.
Darwin thought eyes might have evolved from light-sensitive scales (or something of the sort–I don’t remember exactly what he said about eyes, though I have read Origin of Species), but scientific knowledge since then has made such guesses look fairly naive. Darwin simply had no clue how complex life was, and of course he wanted to believe it was possible to have a creature without a Creator.
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From the article: “Just this summer, religious advocates lobbied successfully for a Louisiana law that protects the right of local schools to teach alternative theories for the origin of species, even though there are none that scientists recognize as valid.” Duh, of course there aren’t–because naturalistic evolution assumes naturalistic origins. When you define “science” to exclude the possibility of supernatural intervention, then (bingo) only those with naturalistic explanations will be accepted.
In other words, logical fallacies abound in this. And this article is so slanted it’s ridiculous–this teacher of evolution was so kind to his ignorant colleague who believed in creation, and so patient with his student who didn’t believe in evolution, knowing that the right teaching would help him understand. Why didn’t the reporter also interview the colleague who believed in creation, or the student who did? I suspect it’s because their responses might be too intelligent, and readers might say, “Yes, excellent point!”
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I, of course, read the article in yesterday’s paper. It’s quite long, but worth the read. I urge folks to read the whole article before jumping to conclusions.
Mr. Campbell is to be commended for standing up for high standards in science. As he pointed out much better than I can, religion is based on faith, and science is based on fact. Each has their area of expertise. He’s anglican and has no problem reconciling that with teaching science.
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Anlir, how does using a teaching analogy that better supports the antithesis of your argument be an example of standing up for high standards in science? Seems like it’s a better example of deception to me. The old bait and switch. “Now kids, Isn’t this reasonable? — evolution is just like this.” NOT!
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Anlir,
I think you have a misunderstanding of “faith.” Religion is indeed based on faith–the same way a relationship with anybody is. That is, we trust God to be who He says He is. In other words, we believe that Christianity is true, we don’t just randomly “have faith.” If Christianity is not true, our faith is misplaced.
Naturalistic scientists also believe–they believe there is no God, and base their scientific study on that starting point. But that is a philosophic, even religious, starting point, and NOT a scientific starting point. (Here’s an absurd parallel. Aliens come to this planet, and they happen to land in the middle of some event that has thousands of men but no women. They can try all they want to find out how our species reproduces, but they’ll never succeed, because they have begun with the wrong place–they are looking at only the male half of the species. Likewise, scientists who assume there is no God have thrown out any possible answer that involves God–but if there really is a God, then their beliefs, and the science they have founded those beliefs on, are simply wrong.)
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It’s always amusing to hear people who don’t really understand evolution arguing — usually with a great deal of unwarranted confidence — why it can’t possibly be true.
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It’s also amusing that those who believe in evolution haven’t the slightest clue how life began, and try to claim that the question has nothing to do with evolution.
As a software engineer, I have a pretty good understanding of information theory; understanding DNA encoding is trivial.
It’s obvious to me that, for life to exist, DNA must replicate. Talking with people in the life sciences, and reading on the topic, I learned replication requires one enzyme to split the DNA, and another to replicate the missing half of each half strand. The code for the enzymes must be in the DNA, otherwise the daughter cells couldn’t reproduce. But the code for those enzymes is long enough, and specific enough, that by my calculations the expectation of getting a single instance of that combination of information bits in the universe in 15 billion years by random chance, is zero to at least 900 decimal places. That’s just for the information content, ignoring the chemical aspects, and ignoring the requirement for a mechanism that can “execute” the DNA code, which must also contain the code for the “execution” mechanism, further compounding the unlikelihood.
Evolutionists exhibit their own blind faith and circular reasoning when they assert, “But it must have happened, since life exists. We’re just very, very, very, very lucky.”
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It’s also amusing to hear people with an extremely narrow view of theology insist that any one who accepts evolution must be an atheist. (Hint: I do and I’m not.)
The actual beginning of life is not a question of evolution. To insist it is (when no life scientist would agree) is like saying you have to know how to build a car in order to change the oil.
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Steve G,
Theistic evolutionists can get away with saying, “God started it and then let it go.” I don’t really think that position is tenable, but philosophically it’s consistent. But naturalistic evolutionists simply cannot say, “Where life began isn’t our problem.” That’s a total copout.
It truly doesn’t matter whether “all” scientists agree that the beginning of life is not an evolutionary concern, because it is. The theory can’t even show any good evidence for how complex life evolved, and pretends that the beginning of life is a problem for someone else to figure out. Whose job is it, if not the naturalistic scientists who claim their theory works? That’s kind of like a police department patrolling only low-crime areas and rejoicing that the murder rate has gone down, simply because the high crime areas have been left out of the picture. If the theory doesn’t even try anymore to account for the beginning of life, it’s incomplete and ought to be laughed out of the classroom. (Come to think of it, it should anyway, unless it can show some solid evidence for its declarations.)
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I feel that the flavor of TE embraced by some scientists, especially the high profile ones, is delineated to allow them their faith, but cloak it in a kind of shroud of materialism that allows them to remain on good grounds within their professional community.
God lit off the Big Bang, set in place a process (ask them to define it) which eventioally led to biologic life, and then left the theater, never to be heard from again.
A question for Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller; when you guys pray, who do you pray to?
When questioned along those lines, Collins aludes to the possibility that God doesn’t run things on a day-to-day controlling basis, which by extension, may alude to our bestowance of ‘free will’ and its consequences as perhaps an answer to problems that exist in our world.
But to keep his day job, he still holds to evolution as a purely natural process.
Here’s a fairly recent interview of Collins by an agnostic interviewer (National Geographic): http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0702/voices.html
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CherylD: Theistic evolutionists can get away with saying, “God started it and then let it go.” I don’t really think that position is tenable, but philosophically it’s consistent. But naturalistic evolutionists simply cannot say, “Where life began isn’t our problem.” That’s a total copout.
No scientist says that the beginning of life isn’t important. It’s just that it’s a different question than how life behaves now that it’s here.
Your statement here is another example of the ignorance I’m talking about (and didn’t you embarrass yourself enough in the last evolution thread you tried this in?) Evolution is the study of how life evolves, that is, how it changes. What causes the changes, what biological mechanisms govern the changes, etc.
How it all got started in the first place is a very important, but also very different, question. Your whole post assumes that evolutionary scientists are waving off the question as irrelevant. That isn’t true. But the fact that there’s no certain naturalistic answer of how it started does not affect the study of how it has developed since that point.
Basically you’re arguing that science must answer the question of ultimate origin before it can even consider the questions of what’s happened since, which makes no logical sense and has the effect of denying the whole field of endeavor. It’s a nice rhetorical trick for creationists, but it has no real connection to truth.
To return to my car analogy, do you tell your mechanic he’s copping out if he insists he can fix your brakes but has no idea how to design a car?
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SteveG just thinks the creation story is just a nice moral inspirational tale anyway.
“It’s just that it’s a different question than how life behaves now that it’s here.”
Which isnt evolution either. Evolution assumes how it operated in the past, what its history was, and where it evolved too. So it is a very fair question to ask, where does it start?
Your car analogy is poor. A better would be trying to understand how a car was put together, after having viewed only the finished product. Because what we do in science with evolution is that we have a finished product, but we infer and assume what the start was. We have never observed the pathway.
But you would rather believe lies from the tabletop than trust God’s Word.
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Steve G.,
No, I didn’t “embarrass myself” in an earlier thread. I did get insulted a lot in an earlier thread, but chose not to report the insults to the moderator, though they were against this site’s rules.
OK, on one level I can understand the argument that where life began and evolution are two different subjects, but ultimately I have a whole series of reasons it’s really a copout:
1. Evolutionists used to consider it part of their scope; it was only when they realized how impossible was the task of creating life from non-life that it became a different issue and not their responsibility.
2. You’re up against creation, which does consider the beginning of life relevant, and which does answer the question. That makes your own side less thorough.
3. You haven’t even addressed the “easier” part of the question, and the part you’ve pretended to answer, how life changes into other forms. So it sure smells like a copout.
4. Evolution is being taught to innocent schoolchildren as the way to account for where life came from. I’m quite sure that children aren’t being told “We don’t know where it actually started,” though it is barely possible that today they are told that. But whether or not that is ever stated, the definite trick is to let children think evolution answers all the questions. I’m pointing out that it fails to answer the most important question, and this should be emphasized when it’s taught.
5. Creationists are often considered to be doing a “copout” when they answer the question, “Well, then, where did God come from?” with “He has always existed.” Why then, is evolution allowed to get away with “Not my problem” when we ask, “Where did life come from in this theory of yours?” In other words, it’s falsely considered internally inconsistent to say that an eternal God is eternal and in some ways beyond our comprehension; why is it not considered internally inconsistent when evolutionists claim that their “god” is inscrutable even though his laws are considered to be completely natural and within the realm of scientific testing?
No, I wouldn’t call my mechanic a moron if he couldn’t tell me how to design a car. But I would wonder about someone who pontificated about car assembly, did his doctorate on it, but believed that the car parts just kind of “got there” at the factory one day.
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Here ya go SteveG,
Here is 70 plus incompatibilities between Theistic Evolution and Biblical Accounts.
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ43.html
Obviously not all of them will apply to your personal beliefs, but I imagine a good many will because at some point your saying God created and then let nature do its thing on its own.
The bigger problem with that, is that time becomes the biggest issue. How much time do you need? Even with minimal physical constraints, the earth and moon can not have been around more than 1.2 billion years. Its what astronomers call the “lunar crisis”. Do some research and actually think critically for once rather than just excepting the paradigm of evolutionary science.
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” It’s always amusing to hear people who don’t really understand evolution arguing — usually with a great deal of unwarranted confidence — why it can’t possibly be true.”
I would seriously question the assumption that those who criticize evolution don’t understand it, and then have them categorized as “flat earthers”. Not that you (SteveG) made that claim, but many evolution defenders do. While it’s true that Biblical literalists generally accept the Genesis account ‘literally’, some don’t, and there are a range of interpretations, both YEC and OEC.
But rather than summarily reject critics of evolution as scientifically illiterate merely because they disagree with mainstream science regarding solely naturalistic phylogenetic progressions, I feel that it’s time for ’science’ to accept the fact that gradualism by natural selection of mutational changes is not only not verifiable, but subject to falsification.
It’s becoming evident that scientists, as well, are beginning to openly question the evolutionary NS by RM hypothesis. The results of the Altenberg meeting of scientists, soon to be published, cast serious doubt on macro- progressions by that mechanism. To hear a recent interview of biologist Stuart Newman, go here:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0808/S00298.htm
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SteveG points out the supposed error Christians make in failing to distinguish between origins and evolution, but despite his protestations, some evolutionists (I’m being colloquial) recognize it’s a package deal. Dobzhansky (life scientist) and Sagan said all kinds of things acknowledging this fact. Richard Dawkins (life scientist and philosophical hack) wrote The Blind Watchmaker; its subtitle is “Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design”. At least some of these guys recognized the ramifications of evolutionist philosophy (yeah, I said that–philosophy).
CherylD, I agree that you did not embarass yourself in that ealier thread, if it’s the one I’m thinking of. In that thread, erasmus pointed me to another thread in which Ree was engaging erasmus and Musing on epistemological matters. She was essentially advocating the presuppositional apologetic. (I was surprised erasmus referred me to that thread; Ree had clearly won the day). May I suggest that you ‘give in’ to this line of thinking? Discussion of various lines of evidence and such has some part in the debate, but the anti-Christian falls flat before getting to that point. He can’t make sense of anything without first acknowledging (tacitly or openly) “God’s order,” as (I think) Van Til called it.
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Fun quote from Dawkins, since you mentioned him Yeah
“Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. … We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully ‘designed’ to have come into existence by chance.” Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, pp. 1, 43
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Discussion of various lines of evidence and such has some part in the debate, but the anti-Christian falls flat before getting to that point. He can’t make sense of anything without first acknowledging (tacitly or openly) “God’s order,” as (I think) Van Til called it.
There is a natural order to be sure, but to label it “God’s order” is a matter of belief. What happens is someone will assert it, like Ree did, and then someone else will proclaim they “won the day” by asserting it, when really nothing at all has been demonstrated.
Just your saying it doesn’t make it so.
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Thorn! Quote-mining with selective omission to make it look like the scientist agrees with the Creationist!
I haven’t seen such a clear-cut case of lying for Jesus in a long time! Well done!
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[T]o label it “God’s order” is a matter of belief.
What’s the alternative? “Chance’s” order? How irrational. The evolutionist uses various immaterial tools to do his work (logic, induction, etc.), and accounts for them by saying, “They came to us by chance.” That’s crazy talk.
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Oh Dawkins is quite adamant about design SteveG, he just wants to prove thats its an illusion because natural selection is blind but not random.
The problem with that is that natural selection is a stabilizer, or stasis control. It eliminates the bad, thus reducing the actual gene pool, and eliminates any need to evolve.
Dawkins sees design, he just wants to blame natural selection for all of it.
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Yeah: “Chance” is not the whole of evolutionary theory. Natural selection accounts for why some species survive and thrive, others barely hang on and others disappear altogether. The natural order is what it is because that’s how the pieces fit together.
It may or may not be the product of a divine design. But if it is, part of that design is that organisms change over time and those that survive in a given environment are the ones that live on into future generations.
And yes, origins and later evolution are interconnected and related questions, but you do not have to have solved one before you can study the other.
CherylD: 2. You’re up against creation, which does consider the beginning of life relevant, and which does answer the question. That makes your own side less thorough.
Cheryl, your “answer” to the question is an ancient myth of a primitive culture that is not supported by any observational evidence. You might as well call in Native American or Hindu cosmology as an answer. Pointing to a story in an ancient book does not equal answering the question.
You embarassed yourself in the other thread because you kept insisting “I’m really not ignorant of science” and then saying nonsensical things like this.
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CherylD: Creationists are often considered to be doing a “copout” when they answer the question, “Well, then, where did God come from?” with “He has always existed.” Why then, is evolution allowed to get away with “Not my problem” when we ask, “Where did life come from in this theory of yours?”
The Creationist in that example actually is copping out; she’s saying the question of where God came from isn’t important at all. The evolutionist is saying that the question of how life began IS important and should be studied, BUT that our lack of a certain answer at the present time does not invalidate what we know about how evolution works.
Or to use another analogy … if my doctor knows how to cure the illness I have, I’m not going to demand that he explain exactly what causes it. If he says, “Medical researchers are still trying to find out just exactly what causes this, but we do know this medicine will cure it,” I’m going to take the medicine.
On the other hand, if he says, “I can cure this illness by dancing around you in a circle and chanting ‘ooga booga,’” I’m going to want to understand just how that works a bit better before I trust it. And if the answer is, “Because in the book of Second Chutzpah, chapter 9, verse 8, it says to do that,” I’m going to be looking for another doctor.
In other words, it’s falsely considered internally inconsistent to say that an eternal God is eternal and in some ways beyond our comprehension; why is it not considered internally inconsistent when evolutionists claim that their “god” is inscrutable even though his laws are considered to be completely natural and within the realm of scientific testing?
That’s not what’s being claimed. What’s being said is that we can aanswer one set of questions even if we don’t have certain answers to a related, but different, set.
You are trying to argue that they have to sequentially … have to first explain, with certainty, how life started in the first place before we can even begin to consider how it behaes once started. That is an artificial condition that is in no way necessary.
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Added: I don’t think there’s anything inconsistent in the idea of a God that is eternal without beginning or end. I don’t agree with the materialist view that if anything is without end it might as well be the material universe rather than a Creator.
BUT … that does not in any way validate Creationism. If the Genesis account of Creation were true, there’d be evidence … of a relatively young planet and universe, of the sudden appearance of fully formed organisms, etc. There is nothing at all like that found in nature.
The Genesis account is a myth. If God exists and created everything, the myth may communicate that, but the HOW of it is not what the myth describes.
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Thanks, Yeah. I’m pleased to see intelligent Christians involved on this thread. (I don’t really have time to hang out here today, since I have a tight deadline and I’m a bit sick as well.) I don’t understand, however, what you mean by this: “May I suggest that you ‘give in’ to this line of thinking?” What specific line of thinking, and do you mean argue a different point instead, or what?
Steve G, you show your ignorance about creation when you say stuff like post 25. And I answered such arguments on the other thread with several lines of evidence for why the Bible is trustworthy and why it makes more sense to see a designed universe than a random one. So, sorry, it doesn’t work to make me look ignorant because I believe God’s Word.
How does “natural selection” cause evolution? It doesn’t, and cannot. There’s natural variety within species, sure, and an animal with a thicker coat might do better in a cold climate, so the genetic diversity among wolves (for instance) might lead to better survival of thick-coated wolves in cold climates. But natural selection doesn’t give a lizard feathered wings, because mutations don’t give a lizard wings–there’s nothing for natural selection to “select.” Mutations are far more likely to create a lizard that’s missing its rear legs, and they cannot create new genetic possibilities such as wings, nor can heredity pass on learned behaviors. (I see in my “scientific” magazines that crazy stuff like “we humans are afraid of thus and such because of memories of our evolutionary history when we still lived in trees” is still being written as possible truth.)
Darwin was barking up the wrong tree in seeing natural selection as being the answer, and today’s naturalistic evolutionists keep that discredited answer only because they haven’t found a different one that works any better. (”Punctuated equilibrium” and “the big bang” sound way too much like “God did it,” so they naturally open the door to places a lot of scientists don’t really want to go.)
BTW, as to whether or not you believe in God, who cares, if the God you believe in doesn’t actually do anything? Keep him. I’d rather have the God of the Bible. If your god isn’t your creator, then he’s a fraud for asking your allegiance; you owe him nothing. If he just got the whole thing rolling and left it to evolve–well, you’ve succeeded in doing nothing but needing to explain two hard things rather than just one (where did God come from and how did evolution happen?). So yes, I do know that not all who believe in evolution are atheists–but they’d be better off choosing a side than trying to straddle the indefensible middle.
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Steve G.,
You were posting at the same time as me, and most of this has already been addressed here or elsewhere. Re the “sudden appearance of fully formed organisms,” you might want to study the fossil record a little more.
Also, if God is God, He naturally will be beyond my ability to explain Him; that’s no copout. He has said enough in Scripture about Himself that we can trust Him with the parts He hasn’t told us or that our minds can’t understand.
My break is over, and I have to get back to my deadline.
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We’ve had this debate already and I see no point in revisiting it, so I will just leave it here.
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Steve G.,
Yes, we already discussed the evidence for the Bible, but as I recall, we didn’t discuss how natural selection can work with mutations that can’t happen and the like (the points raised in 28). As I recall, in the earlier discussion I was about to bring up some of those points when you and Erasmus started calling me an idiot and a liar and other endearing, relevant-to-the-discussion terms. So I would be interested in what naturalistic science is saying now about those issues, since it seems to me evolution doesn’t really have much place to stand these days other than to call Christians names.
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It’s hard not to get frustrated when debating with someone who keeps confidently declaring “facts” that she’s certain are correct even though they’re nowhere close to correct. Such as, “mutations that can’t happen” or implying that the fossil record supports Creationism.
Since we’ve been through all of this before and you show no sign of having improved your understanding since then, there really is no point in re-opening it.
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“BUT … that does not in any way validate Creationism. If the Genesis account of Creation were true, there’d be evidence … of a relatively young planet and universe, of the sudden appearance of fully formed organisms, etc. There is nothing at all like that found in nature.”
So punctuated equilibria is just nonsense from Gould then? You know the attempt to explain the SUDDEN APPEARANCE of fully formed organisms???? Thats why its called an EXPLOSION…
I mean really SteveG its obvious you lack any knowledge of science and you do a disfavor even to other evolutionists by not even having a grasp of the situation.
here’s another few facts to chew on this morning. Fossilization of complete organisms requires rapid burial and water. It has to cement and do so before erosion and decaying occurs.
Please explain what mechanism caused such widespread fossilization? Please explain how you get poly strata trees upside down in the fossil record?
The fossil record is not evidence of evolution or eons of time.
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Man wasn’t created by Jehovah/Jesus, nor did he evolve. The visitors from space mixed their own DNA with that of the primates they found here on earth. That’s where human being came from.
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Thorn: So punctuated equilibria is just nonsense from Gould then? You know the attempt to explain the SUDDEN APPEARANCE of fully formed organisms???? Thats why its called an EXPLOSION…
I mean really SteveG its obvious you lack any knowledge of science and you do a disfavor even to other evolutionists by not even having a grasp of the situation.
Uh huh. And you think punctuated equilibria validates Creationism?
You obviously don’t know what punctuated equilibrium is. It is the idea that organisms generally change very little over many generations and then, when their environment changes, and in particular when a small population is isolated from the rest, evolutionary change may happen rapidly.
Ernst Mayr first proposed it in the ’40s, and Gould and a few others refined it in the ’70s. The thinking behind it is that the effect of beneficial mutations is absorbed and mostly lost in a large population, but more likely to rise to dominance in a small, isolated population.
Why is this not in any way evidence for Creationism? Several reasons, of which probably the most important are:
1. “Rapid” in evolutionary terms is still multiple generations over many many thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of years.
2. PE is a description of a mode of evolution from one species to another, NOT the sudden appearance of an animal or plant with no ancestry. It differs from steady gradualism, but not in the way the Creationists wish it did.
Your reference to an “explosion” suggests you’re thinking of the Cambrian Explosion. What you obviously don’t know is that, again, in evolutionary time scales, “explosions” are not instantaneous … the Cambrian Explosion lasted about 70-80 million years. That does not sound lke Genesis 1 to me.
Now, your remaining questions are similarly offbase. If fossilization were as widespread as you imagine, we’d have a lot more complete and intact fossils than we do. (And besides, isn’t the usual Creationism claim that we don’t have ENOUGH complete fossils to reconstruct prehistoric life?)
So in short, Thorn, I think I understand evolutionary theory well enough. You, however, could use some remedial courses.
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“Uh huh. And you think punctuated equilibria validates Creationism?”
I never said that or implied that. You said “of the sudden appearance of fully formed organisms, etc. There is nothing at all like that found in nature.”
But there is, by many evolutionists own standards. I dont agree with punctuated equlibria either, just using the theory for my point. Most scientists agree that fully functional animal phyla arose suddenly. The means by that is inferred or theorized, the point is, whether its creation, PE, or some other mechanism, life arose suddenly in the fossil record.
“the Cambrian Explosion lasted about 70-80 million years.”
The time scale is irrelevant because on the billions of years scale, 70 to 80 million years is practically next week. Further, at some point the CE has its start, it arises suddenly because nothing comes before it, hence “explosion”. If it wasnt an issue, Gould and others wouldnt have spent time on it and tried to explain it.
“1. “Rapid” in evolutionary terms is still multiple generations over many many thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of years.’
The fossilization process must occur rapidly, it cant occur over thousands of years.
“If fossilization were as widespread as you imagine, we’d have a lot more complete and intact fossils than we do. (And besides, isn’t the usual Creationism claim that we don’t have ENOUGH complete fossils to reconstruct prehistoric life?)”
There are plenty of fossils, partial or complete. What you do not have and what several others make a point of is that you dont have “transitional/gradual” fossils. Thats not my point though. My meaning of widespread is that you find them all over the world including within the artic circle. You have to account for widespread rapid burial.
“2. PE is a description of a mode of evolution from one species to another, NOT the sudden appearance of an animal or plant with no ancestry. It differs from steady gradualism, but not in the way the Creationists wish it did.”
Ancestry isnt the point. The point is, sudden change occurs, the mechanism that does it isnt my point. Steady gradualism differs from sudden appearance. PE is not steady gradualism, its sudden appearance from an ancestor.
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And no I dont expect differing evolutionists to be proof that creation is the means. I was just refuting your point that nothing shows up “suddently” regardless of what timescale. But I do understand you mean that creation needs to show how it could happen much faster.
I find the fossil record to be proof of massive liquefaction from a global flood. Liquefaction would easily sort sedimentary strata and create/sort fossils. It would cause rapid burial and preserve even soft body tissues. Thus the timescale becomes months at most.
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/Liquefaction2.html
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But Thorn, PE is NOT the sudden appearance of fully-formed organisms. The term means an idea of evolution that proceeds very slowly for a long time and then relative quickly for a time, rather than a steady, gradual course.
It does not invalidate evolution in any way. You cite it as if you think it does (or else, I have no idea what your point is.)
Ancestry isnt the point. The point is, sudden change occurs, the mechanism that does it isnt my point. Steady gradualism differs from sudden appearance. PE is not steady gradualism, its sudden appearance from an ancestor.
Um … no, it’s not. At least, not unless you define sudden as tens of millions of years and hundreds of thousands of generations. PE is still VERY SLOW by human time measures. Occurring in 50 million years instead of 200 million is still an evolutionary time scale.
The time scale is irrelevant because on the billions of years scale, 70 to 80 million years is practically next week.
And what does the “billions of years scale” have to do with it? The overall history of all life on Earth spans about 4.5 billion years, but for the most part, it concerns single-celled organisms. The existence of more complex life forms is measured in the hundreds of millions of years, and lot of mammalian evolution leading to the present day in the tens of millions.
80 million years is a pretty long time by any measure.
Your “massive liquefaction” nonesense has been debunked and refuted a thousand times. If a global flood had caused fossilization, we would find many fossilized modern animals mixed in with the extinct ones. We don’t. That alone is enough to prove the idea false, but there are a lot of other reasons too.
Try reading a book on evolution not written by a Creationist.
Oh, and the old “no transitional fossils” falsehood: Go here and be enlightened.
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Night Train: Where did the visitors space come from? (Not from space, I mean, how did they come to exist?)
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Thorn: The bigger problem with that, is that time becomes the biggest issue. How much time do you need? Even with minimal physical constraints, the earth and moon can not have been around more than 1.2 billion years. Its what astronomers call the “lunar crisis”. Do some research and actually think critically for once rather than just excepting the paradigm of evolutionary science.
On what grounds do you say that? The commonly accepted age of the Earth is around 4-5 billion years. On what grounds do you knock it down to 1.2 billion?
Also, I’m well aware that theistic evolution doesn’t square with the story in the Bible. The story in the Bible is a creation myth like the creation myths of every other ancient culture. It may or may not impart some spiritual truth, but it is not literally, scientifically true.
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Don’t know, SteveG. That’s above my pay grade. I’m a Deist, though, so I have no trouble believing in an ultimate creator. I just don’t God was involved in our creation.
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