What’s in it for me?
Good Christians are never dissatisfied with their church’s worship service. The rest of us, however, grumble from time to time. Those songs were too contemporary. I didn’t get the point the preacher was driving at. He throws out verses so fast I can’t keep up.
We have, many of us, a consumerist mentality when it comes to church. We spend much of our waking hours as consumers—of food, entertainment, goods and services. This is especially true in an age when the average daily wage earns an American far more than he needs to survive. All that money has to go somewhere, and judging from our national savings rates, for the most part it isn’t going into the bank. So perhaps it’s only natural that many spending-drunk Americans have come to view church as one more consumer experience, to be evaluated like a movie or a steak dinner.
Churches haven’t helped, splintering themselves into ever-smaller sects and factions with minimal governance. When a newcomer comes straggling through that front door on Sunday morning we are so glad to see him that it rarely crosses our minds to ask: So, why did you leave your last church? Since it wasn’t our church, his former place of worship was likely wrong about some aspect of doctrine, so why scrutinize the reasons for the newcomer’s departure? What matters is he now sees the light and is in the right church.
So we offer up a pew, and he settles in (likely as not with a cup of coffee in hand) to join the chorus of critical voices. I liked the preacher’s message, but our old church played more contemporary music. Many churches greet people as if they are consumers, and so perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised if they behave as such.
The proper response to this church-consuming business is to remind the complainant that worship isn’t about him. A good many of us know that already, but we are apt to forget, caught up as so many of us are in that often-elusive search for a personal relationship with Jesus. Individual-minded at the outset, we easily slip into judging a worship service based on how it made us feel.
That doesn’t mean one can’t criticize a worship service, of course. God struck down Aaron’s sons for offering “strange fire.” And Paul instructed the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught.” It seems clear that in order to qualify as acceptable worship, an activity has to have more to recommend it than the fact that it is committed between the hours of 10 and noon on a Sunday morning.
So what qualifies as worship? Liturgical readings? Hymn singing? I’m inclined to say yes to both. Announcements about upcoming nursery duty? Probably not.
And now here’s the tough question: Does the sermon count as worship? I’ve heard a precious few that certainly seemed to be worship, directed as they were to the praise of God. But many are simply lectures aimed at correcting some defect in thinking among their audience, or worse, rambling feel-good stories with a few verses thrown in for effect. Perhaps each has its place. But are all sermons worship?
If not, maybe some of that grumbling is justified. And further, maybe we can approach a new equilibrium: less grumbling, more worship. The more our worship periods are filled with genuine worship, as opposed to church administrivia and individual development, perhaps the easier it will become to tell the complainers to zip it. And even better, the more we will be, well, worshiping. Which is the point, right?




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back to top79 Comments to “What’s in it for me?”
ok, i’ll start.
Isn’t worshiping, praising, and glorifying God all the same thing? — namely, showing God that He matters more to us than anything and everything else. Seems to me any style of doing this is “right” if done with the right attitude, and any style of doing this is offensive to God if done with the wrong attitude. Worrying about if the style is correct when praising God would, in my opinion, prevent my praise from even reaching His ears.
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You’re right, Awstar–God looks at the attitude of the heart. We’re only worshipping if that’s what God sees when He looks at our heart.
I love the psalm that skips in glee: “I rejoiced when they said to me, let us go unto the house of the Lord; standing there, oh Jerusalem, in your gates, unto the house of the Lord.”
I know I’ve worshipped when that’s what I feel. (Ooh, I don’t mean to use that word, rather, when my heart rejoices that I’m together with God’s people enjoying Him.)
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#1- Awstar: Curious as to what you do with Uzzah who, with ostensibly a “right attitude” reached out to the Ark of the Covenant to steady it and prevent it from falling on the ground and was struck dead for doing so? I’d go so far as to venture that Uzzah, in his heart, was showing God that He matters more than anything and everything else.
#2- Michelle: “I know I’ve worshipped whne that’s what I feel.” What about when you don’t feel? What about those times there is no emotion or even negative emotion? Have you still worshipped?
– Jonny
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Michelle – You are confusing OT worship and NT worship. They are different. Buildings are not the dwelling place of God any more. Stephen told us that the day he was stoned to death in Acts. The whole system of institutionalized worship is corrupt in this as they spend billions for “sanctuaries” God has not asked for. He did not ask believers to gather in large numbers in one building. Believers are “the house of God”. We are this house ALL THE TIME 24/7. We worship 7 days a week in EVERYTHING we do. The NT NEVER says believers must gather for “worship”. It teaches to gather for many things. However there is not instruction to gather by lining up in pews to hear a Bible lecture from one expert. You know the verse about “not forsaking the assembling of yourselves”. This scripture tells you exactly what you are to do. Heb. 10:24,25
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Centuries ago, church leaders led the church into institutionaled and ceremonialized worship. These are very bad substitutes for what God HAS designed for us. When the saints line up in pews they do not do what this scripture says they should do. “One another” communication is the exact opposite of one-way communication defined by tradition as preaching. The Bible never says preaching is one-way communication – lecture. Litergy and lecture are performance / expert driven. God’s design is for gatherings to be driven by ordinary believers who are worshiping – walking in the Spirit – all week long. God designed gatherings to be participation oriented. The “word of Christ will dwell in you richly” as you “teach and admonish one another with all wisdom”. “Preach the word, in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort” is for any brother who desires to be a disciple maker. There is no “clergy” category of professions taught in the NT. You can teach it, as tradition has done, by ignoring key scriptures that teach the opposite.
Institutionalized worship will ALWAYS be a consumer event for the majority (not all) of saints, very sensitive to style selection and minute doctrinal issues, and very consuming of 75 – 85% of the giving to buy buildings and expert help to benefit the givers. This is pooling, not giving as the NT teaches. I gave up this kind of “worship” 10 years ago. 100% of my giving goes beyond my needs. Every gathering I go to is driven by ordinary believers. I am far richer for it and so are they. I know many institutionalized believers think think they are doing great things for God. They just don’t realize how much of it is not even what God asked for, how may “salvation numbers” go out the back door, how may believers are not disciples, how many teachers are not “fully training their students to be like them” Luke 6:40, and how much giving is really consumed pooling.
Many institutionalized/ceremonialized churches offer small groups. However they are often:
1. Only second or third place to the crowd oriented -expert driven events
2. Attended by a small % of believers
3. Often still driven by one teacher or personality
4. Often lack full confidence in the spiritual truth supply of ordinary believers that God designed
5. Focus only on what the preacher said that week
6. Require a hired organizer to make them happen and keep people happy in them
and many more…
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We have this conversation often in our home regarding church service music. My father (67) finds the contemporary choruses obnoxious — “7-11 music; 7 words you sing 11 times.” (The same man will praise a jazz or rock song during offertory.) My little kids (7 & 3) love the choruses because they learn the songs right away and understand the words (as opposed to most hymns).
If you figure out the perfect church worship service that will shut up all the complainers — please publish it!
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were there sermons in the temple?
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too many spectators in what passes for church today
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This is why I LOvE the Bible-based expository preaching in the Plymouth Brethren assemblies.
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REG: A church is attended by spectators. What good is it if there are no spectators to remember what Christ has done to atone for our sins?
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Jonny said: “Curious as to what you do with Uzzah who, with ostensibly a “right attitude” reached out to the Ark of the Covenant to steady it and prevent it from falling on the ground and was struck dead for doing so? I’d go so far as to venture that Uzzah, in his heart, was showing God that He matters more than anything and everything else.”
Who’s to say Uzzah isn’t enjoying close fellowship with the LORD in His kingdom, simply because his action served as an example for Israel that there is only one way to approach God – the way God prescribed. Of course, now we know that way is through Christ, who also — by the way — glorified God with the right attitude even as He who was without sin became sin for us and suffered the same fate as Uzzah.
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Excellent point, Awstar!
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As Tony rightly points out worship is about God, not about us. For that reason, worship should be the easy part of church, since it is directly between people of faith and God. Unfortunately we’re pros at sweating the small stuff.
Church is about so much more than worship. We raise our kids there. Our kids went to school there. And so, after decades of serving, there is a lot of real pain and heartache. I take solace that God suffered more than us all and loves us more too. His love for his people keeps me going despite his people.
My son spent years leading a teen worship program at church. He and his friends spent their every spare moment trying to figure out better ways to worship God, only to get kicked out because they found on MySpace that he liked some contemporary music. My daughter, who has a real heart for children, spent years caring for and teaching them only to be eventually disqualified for not attending every church service.
The doctrine was pretty solid, as Outkast says “expositional bible-based preaching”, but the meanness and legalism became unbearable and even harmful to my children. As deacon I saw the backbiting and power plays and the downright nastiness in the back room, which translated to all smiles from the pulpit.
We ended up moving our kids to a school run by a charismatic church. We disagree with some of the doctrine, but no one understands grace better than they do. Our children grew and matured tremendously because they were given responsibility and treated like adults.
So again, I can worship at any church, but church is so much more than worship. Church is the people. Anybody know of a good church survivor’s program?
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It is interesting that the most severe criticism several quite intelligent people at wmb can come up with of Roger Williams (my favorite Chritsian) was that at the end of his life he refused to join any church.
Nevertheless, as far as I can tell, he was a sincere Christian who devoutly worshipped God and Jesus.
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#10- Awstar:
I’m not presuming the state of Uzzah’s soul. The message was clear, however, that God had certain expectations of the Jewish people with respect to reverence toward Him that were completely independent of what people might try to show Him.
I’ve got to say that I can’t make much sense out of your statement “Of course, now we know that way is through Christ, who also — by the way — glorified God with the right attitude even as He who was without sin became sin for us and suffered the same fate as Uzzah.” Probably my own thick-headedness. Help me out, here.
#s 4, 8,and 9- Having grown up in “the assemblies” (i.e. Plymouth Brethren), I think I can safely say that their teaching is rife with innovations thought up by Darby and his predecessors and their understanding of Church history is so fundamentally flawed that it would be laughable if they didn’t take it so seriously. Broadbent’s “The Pilgrim Church” is full of outrageous material. I don’t intend by this to rake them or it over the coals in any way, as I owe my knowledge about God to them.
– Jonny
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TIma – 4
YOU WRITE:…
“The Bible never says preaching is one-way communication”
Do you consider Paul a preacher, called of God?
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14
GOOD QUESTION –
YOU WRITE:…
“There is no “clergy” category of professions taught in the NT. You can teach it, as tradition has done, by ignoring key scriptures that teach the opposite.”
Then you would need to ask yourself about a preacher. A preacher is not ‘everyone’ in the church. Gifts are given to every Believers, not all Believers have the SAME GIFT.
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 2 Timothy 1:11
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Jonny: I have only been attending an “assembly” since January of this year, but based on my bachelor of science degree in biblical studies I can say without hesitation that your assessment of the Darby crowd is way off base. PB churches are based on the New Testament structure described by the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Himself.
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Victoria: I think what Tima might have meant to say (and I’m only surmising) is that there is a “plurality of leadership” described in the New Testament. The churches I have attended since I became a Christian often have had several “pastors,” but those were always overseen by a board of elders who were the actual “governing authorities.” The “one-man pastor” phenomenon, I would suggest, is a relatively recent phenomenon (since the New Testament, at least).
The PB church I’ve been attending this year has a number of “preachers” who take turns “preaching” throughout the month and year. There is no clergy/laity distinction.
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Victoria
Of the scriptures you have given, which ones are you suggesting teach that preaching is one-way communication? If you think “preach” means lecture you need to take a closer look at the contexts of the word “preach” and see the interaction going on. To answer your question, yes, Paul was a preacher, amoung many other discriptions and was called of God, just like every other believer is called of God to be a preacher. The great commission is for all believers. Mark 16:15 “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.” If you consider yourself a disciple, this commission is for you.” That’s only one verse. There are more.
I’m not talking about someone who stands behind a pulpit and lectures people sitting in pew, because the Bible never presents that scenario as “preaching”. Not ever. Pulpits, pews, and special buildings for crowd oriented church (3 things that ruin most organism life God designed for us) never existed until after all the apostles were dead. Pulpit preaching is only man’s tradition that substitues for God’s design. God can use it, but he offers high rewards for obeying His organism design. Organism participation by all members is the point of this article.
You suggest one must be “gifted to preach”. Do you have a verse for this? Do you have a verse that says preaching is a gift? I’m guessing you think this because you only see the pulpit routine as preaching. This is man’s tradition that denies God’s design.
You give 1 Tim 2:7 and 2 Tim. 1:11. “Ordained” is a very simple word that in it’s most common use has NO relation to the institutionalized forms of ceremoniously knighting someone spiritually special. (See blueletterbible.org and look up Strongs word number 5087) It is translated “ordained” here because the translators were institutionalists. They had to to keep the church hierarchy happy. The same Greek word is used in John 15:16 of every believer: “You did not choose me, but I chose you and “appointed” you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.” This ordination by God puts every believer under the same calling to bear fruit that will last. Preaching is not outside the concept of “bearing fruit” in a separate catagegory. Appointing and ordaining are the same thing. So from Jesus we learn that all disciples are commissioned to preach and ordained to bear fruit. Isn’t that exciting!!!
Satan would love for many believers to think they are not included in what Jesus has designed for them to do. “You have to be gifted to preach” is a lie. What a great success for him to have this systemetized in the most accepted form of church life. He is happy. You should not be. You need to be a Berean and examine what your pulpit preachers are teaching you to see if it’s true. Acts 17:11.
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Tima – 18
YOU WRITE:…..
“You suggest one must be “gifted to preach”. Do you have a verse for this? Do you have a verse that says preaching is a gift?”
God gave gifts to all of us, but we ALL receive the same gifts – Preaching is a gift, check out verse 11 –
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Notice the word “some” – everyone received different gifts.
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Ephesians 4
____________________________
Here again we see some of the gifts mentioned
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
We see here there is a line of who God has chosen to do HIS work –
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Every believer is NOT a teacher, an apostle or a prophet –
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 1 Corinthians 12
The Spirit distributes to every one as he will. We must be content though we are lower and less than others. We must not despise others, if we have greater gifts. How blessed the Christian church, if all the members did their duty! Instead of coveting the highest stations, or the most splendid gifts, let us leave the appointment of his instruments to God, and those in whom he works by his providence. Remember, those will not be approved hereafter who seek the chief places, but those who are most faithful to the trust placed in them, and most diligent in their Master’s work. —- Matthew Henry’s commentary
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Tima
I wrote: …….. “God gave gifts to all of us, but we ALL receive the same gifts – Preaching is a gift, check out verse 11
It should read… “God gave gifts to all of us, but we DO NOT recieve the same gifts - Preaching is a gift, check out vers 11
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Tima – 18
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:14-15
Our blessed Lord renewed his choice of the eleven as his apostles, and commissioned them to go into all the world, to preach his gospel to every creature. Only he that is a true Christian shall be saved through Christ.
Matthew Henry
Tima – God calls people to be pastors, teachers, missionaries, to go abroad and give out the Gospel – not everyone is called to go to a foreign land and preach -
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Tima
God calls those who he has given the gift of preaching, and it is a gift – my father was a pastor for many years, he was gifted and it was apparent –
YOU WRITE:…
“I’m not talking about someone who stands behind a pulpit and lectures people sitting in pew, because the Bible never presents that scenario as “preaching”. Not ever. Pulpits, pews, and special buildings for crowd oriented church (3 things that ruin most organism life God designed for us) never existed until after all the apostles were dead.”
You are right about the churches and pews not existing until after the apostles died, but DO YOU KNOW WHY? I’ll tell you:
Christian Believers had a hard time, they were put to death for their beliefs, – they met in homes for their fellowship and teaching, – it was there that they heard the Word of God from a teacher/preacher – the pews and churches came later, and I’m glad they did – I’ve witnessed many people coming to know Jesus Christ walking from a pew or a seat inside a ‘church’ to pray and know Christ –
Tima, I would watch how you ridicule those who go to church and listen to a Bible preaching pastor on Sunday and during the week, you my friend do not have all the answers.
Are you with the Sacred Name Movement?
Tima you write:..
“Satan would love for many believers to think they are not included in what Jesus has designed for them to do. “You have to be gifted to preach” is a lie. What a great success for him to have this systemetized in the most accepted form of church life. He is happy. You should not be. You need to be a Berean and examine what your pulpit preachers are teaching you to see if it’s true. Acts 17:11.”
You sound very angry Tima, in fact your outburst and lack of knowledge is very sad. Gifts are nothing to mock, or to think you and everyone else have the same gifts. Preaching is a gift whether you like it or not. When Christ gave that command to his disciples in Mark 16 it was to them, they were HIS disciples, Christ had chosen them. The LORD continues to gift men to teach and preach, but EVERYONE does not receive this gift – We are all chosen to do what the LORD leads us to do. We are all in the body, – everyone isn’t a leg or an arm, eye, etc.
Below is the verse you have mentioned above:
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11
Tima, what does this verse tell you? Remember you mentioned it in your post number 18.
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Tima – this is your answer -
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant.
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, even as you were led.
3 Why I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit with
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 <b.To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; </b.
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now has God set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 No, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God has tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I to you a more excellent way.
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The Church has three overall purposes – ultimate, inward and outward. The ultimate purpose is to exalt the Lord (God), the inward purpose is to build up (edify) the believers and the outward purpose is to evangelize the lost. We can summarize the purpose of the Church by saying that the Church exists to glorify God through edifying the believers and evangelizing the lost.
The Church is about so much more than what believers can “get out of it.” Christians gather for worship and edification, in order to then go out and do the work of evangelism. These are interrelated purposes. The inward purpose (edification) serves the outward purpose (evangelism), and both purposes serve to glorify God (worship).
Unfortunately, too many churches don’t have a clear sense of purpose, and they can waste time, energy and resources doing things that God has not called them to do, or they can end up simply seeking to have some kind of emotional experience. Knowing and living out the purpose of the Church goes a long way toward avoiding the consumer mentality.
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jonny said: “I’ve got to say that I can’t make much sense out of your statement “Of course, now we know that way is through Christ, who also — by the way — glorified God with the right attitude even as He who was without sin became sin for us and suffered the same fate as Uzzah.” Probably my own thick-headedness. Help me out, here.”
The revelation of God through Israel tells us that God is Holy. And no one who is unholy can even approach Holiness, without being consumed. This is Uzzah’s example for us. But our problem is that we cannot by ourselves become Holy, we need a way to approach God that will let us have fellowship with Him in spite of our unholiness. In the OT, if they had followed God’s instructions of using poles carried by priests to move the ark, everything would be OK. In the NT, this need to compensate for our unholyness was provided by Jesus sacrifice on the Cross. He took on our unholiness, so that we could be clothed with His holiness. Now, even better than carrying God around in ark around on sticks, we can have the spirit of a Holy God dwelling right in our own hearts. Pretty neat, eh?
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Tychicus
YOU WRITE:.. “Unfortunately, too many churches don’t have a clear sense of purpose, and they can waste time, energy and resources doing things that God has not called them to do, or they can end up simply seeking to have some kind of emotional experience. Knowing and living out the purpose of the Church goes a long way toward avoiding the consumer mentality.”
You speak the truth here Tychicus. Many churches do waste time doing things God has not called them to do. On the other hand many Churches waste time not praying about WHAT they SHOULD be DOING -
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You have a good point, Victoria, about the fact that early Christians did not meet in buildings because it was unsafe for them.
To add to that, one of the purposes of being able to gather in a “building” is that unbelievers or those seeking help can find us.
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Karen O – we are so blessed in this country –
Going to a church of our choice, Worshipping the LORD, hearing the Word of God given by someone who has studied and relied on the Holy Spirit for guidance as to how that message should be delivered.
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Karen O: But the “priesthood of all believers” seems to be a concept that hasn’t changed since the days of the Apostle Paul, you agree? I don’t see any evidence in the New Testament of a singular “pastor” or “preacher” being placed in authority over a church.
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outkast-
I have been in PB all my life! We had a split several years ago, though, and I am wondering which group you are with now.
My husband was raised Methodist until he became a believer before we met, and since being together, he wouldn’t want to go anywhere else. It has been very tempting, though, to leave as our group now is very small and there is so much happening at area churches with friends who left our group. But we stay and enjoy fellowship with people that we know now very well.
Who are some of the leaders where you meet? I might know some of them.
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Victoria
None one of the scriptures you gave said preaching is a gift. Didn’t you see that? I read the same Bible you do. It’s not there. If you see it there it is because YOU are putting it there. The simple scripture I gave you showing God’s commission for all disciples to preach here and everywhere seems to ellude you. I could give you other scriptures but you have not received even this clear passage. You argue from your experience with your father. Your experience is not inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, correction or instruction in righteousness… I’m sure God used your father to bear fruit inspite of his sincerely upholding the traditions of men rather than God’s design for His body. God is merciful isn’t He! I have received this same mercy when I was sincerely following in these traditions.
I’ve never heard of the Sacred Name Movement.
I’m not angry. I am patiently waiting for the Spirit to open your eyes to what His inspired text actually says without the filters of insitutionalized faith. I prayed for you this evening. You are my sister. How could I be angry with you. We’ll spend eternity together. Let’s practice for that now.
One of the greatest sermons in the NT was preached by Stephen. Acts 6, 7 He was stoned to death after he preached that stunning message. He was one of those selected to “serve tables” while the apostles focused on the the word and prayer. Notice his qualifications for “serving tables” was that he was “full of faith and of the Holy Spirit”. What business did he haver preaching if he wasn’t an “apostle” or “gifted to preach” as you suggest is the boundary placed around preaching. Preaching merely requires one be “full of faith and of the Holy Spirit. Any believer can be this. Everyone should seek it, and not to stand behind a pulpit and dominate a gathering of believers week after week so the saints are perpetually dependent upon a weekly dose. Preaching is fluid in the context of normal relationships at work, home, church gatherings, or any where. Don’t put bogus limits on God’s design for His church.
What does Acts 17:11 mean to me? It means a noble believer is one who examins the scriptures directly to make sure what his teachers are telling him is true. You have not been doing this. You have been soaking it all in, no questions asked regarding God’s instructions for His church. I’m sure you have rooted out many a false teacher from TV or many be some from your churches pulpit, but you have taken in institutionalized church dogma hook line and sinker. The NT believers didn’t have pulpits, pews and cathedrals because they were persecuted? Hog wash. If you visited in with them and you suggested “lets set up pews and pulpit to hear a good Bible lecture” -you would have been shown the scripture you just gave me about all the gifts and explained these gifts are designed to be personally expressive in the saints gathering. God pours His truth through ALL the gifts when they gather, not just one hired man and a song leader who picks all the songs. Take a look at 1 Cor 14 and see who participated.
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Wow! I just now read the original post, and I have to say that in all the years I’ve been read this blog, I have NEVER read anything so cynical and derogatory of the Church! It’s like Lucifer himself sat down at the keys and had at it!
Not that there aren’t a few good points, but all of the negatives of a service in one round of punches.
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Outkast – I wasn’t addressing that particular matter in my comment, but yes, I do certainly believe in the priesthood of all believers.
I’m not sure where I stand on the subject of having one pastor. There are verses about pastors & the fact that they have a responsibility for us.
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct…Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. Hebrews 13:7&17
Of course, this doesn’t refer to just one man, but does show that pastors & elders do in fact have authority over us, which some have disputed.
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Tima
You make remark:
“Your experience is not inspired by God for doctrine, reproof, correction or instruction in righteousness… I’m sure God used your father to bear fruit inspite of his sincerely upholding the traditions of men rather than God’s design for His body. God is merciful isn’t He! I have received this same mercy when I was sincerely following in these traditions.
Tima- You dare call my experience not “inspired by GOD?” you are arrogant and unlearned, you haven’t even taken the time to read the Scripture which I posted – if you had you would have read Ephesians 4, (I’m sure its been pointed out to you in the past)
As far as my father in concerned, you are completely OFF BASE and know not of what you speak – You speak without knowledge or understanding of the truth –
What Church or denomination are you affiliated with?
Go back and check out post #19 – Ephesians 4 – there is YOUR ANSWER.
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Karen
Thank you for raising the “rule over you” question. This is a case of bad translation in the KJV. The greek word is hegeomai. The NIV rightly translates “leaders”. This is not a hierarchial kind of leader. It’s a guide as a tour guide. This does not reduce their importance. Leaders are very important in the house hold of faith. It is showing NT leadership is not a power position, but a power example. The context explains this clearly. They lead by truth speaking and truth living. There are greek works that mean position driven ruling, but they are not used here.
“Obey” or “peitho” also is not an authority kind of obey. There are greek words for that which are not used here either as in “children obey your parents” and “slaves obey your master” which are a position driven obey term. The NIV goes way off track here by adding “to their authority”. There are greek words for “authority” but there is no greek word at all for this in the text.
“Submit” is hupeiko. This is not the same word or kind of headship submission as “wives submit to your husbands” or higher position submission to governing authorities. This is a submission or yielding to greater strength as in those who give overwelming truth evidence for an issue or direction.
Who am I, a simple business man to contest with Bible translators and scholars? The evidence is right there for anyone to see with tools available to all such as at the blueletterbible.org. The KJV translators were beholden to very hierarchial driven leadership in the church at that time. Their whole world view was only about top – down leadership orientation. The NIV must sell to institutional churches that require hierarchial twists to the text to keep their prefered traditions alive. Another expample of this kind of tradition driven translation rather than truth driven translation is that no english translations I am aware of will translate the greek word for baptize. Baptize is merely a transliteration of the greek word. It has various translations that fit with the context where it is found, but they don’t translate it. Baptism traditions are varied and Bible publishers want to sell to them all. Jesus was very clear in his teaching that leadership in His kingdom was not power or position oriented. Yet His own words are contradicted by translators in the epistles. They know they must translate in context with immediate context, book context, and NT context.
You may be very happy in your position driven leadership oriented church. But your faith will not grow as God designed it to grow without positionless, example, and truth driven leadership. This is a reproductive kind of leadership that “fully trains” others to “be like them”. Luke 6:40. They entrust to others so they can teach others also. 2 Tim. 2:2. Institutional leadership is almost totally permanent dependency oriented. A pastor who has preached beautifully and everyone is happy even after 20 years of “leadership” will move to another church. No one where he has been is “fully trained to be like him”. No one is entrusted with what he does to teach others also. Someone must be hired in from elsewhere to fill his shoes completely. This is a systemic assumption of the institutional form of church that denys Biblical instruction and leaves saints and men especially far removed from God’s design for their maturity. It forces God’s people to devote 75 – 85% of their “giving” to provide for their own spiritual needs. This turns giving into pooling. When you apply this system to the saints in poorer countries like the Philippines where I grew up as an MK, they must devote 99% of the “giving” to themselves. They have a heart to reach all nations with the gospel but they are stuck with a self-serving form of church life that Americans handed to them and have almost nothing left to send their own people.
As this posts suggests “What’s in it for me” is the rule of most American believers. It is considered normal to devote 85% of the giving to buy spiritual staff and facilities. “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” This is an axiom of where your heart will be. When you devote even your “giving” to yourself, your heart will be focused on yourself. This will not be fixed until you realign the whole system with what Jesus desires. This can take awhile and with some tough instruction. I’ve already been made out to be Lucifer. Thanks Dave. I understand. Luther and other reformers, many of whom were burned at the stake as heretics were probably charged with the same thing. I am a real protestant. One who protests what is not true. I have not regressed into Catholic thinking where the institution or your comfortable and familiar customs and their rationalizations must always be followed. Let’s help the church, not pander to it’s immaturities and worldliness.
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Victoria
I fail to see the word “preach” in any of the the texts you suggest. Do not read words in where they do not appear. Your experience is adding to the text in your own mind. This is very dangerous.
I am not connected to any human driven denomination with top-down oriented leadership. I gave that up 10 years ago. My experiences there are not “inspired by God” as the scriptures are. The scriptures cut up my experiences as with a double edged sword, down to judging the thoughts and attitudes of my heart. God’s revelation is my guide, not my past comfort zone. I am connected in personal relationships with believers locally in a depth that is far deeper at a heart level than anything that happened inside the church walls. I am accountable to brothers in a deeper way than anyone who claimed to be “my pastor”. I am connected to you in the household of faith. This superceeds anything man can institutionalize.
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Annie: I’m living in Dubuque now, so a number of the elders and speakers at my assembly are also faculty members at Emmaus Bible College. My father, Jerry Stiles, also travels up and down the East coast speaking in various PB assemblies.
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Tima,
I have met a few people who believe as you do, they meet in ‘House Churches’ which is sometimes a good thing. The problem arises, when they believe ‘HOUSE CHURCH ONLY’ – House Church is not the only way to have a church. Of course they don’t want to be under a pastor –
<b.Your arguments are clever, but they aren’t Biblical – you are discounting ‘gifts’ – we are not all given the same gifts – we are all called to give out the Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, but that does not mean we are called to be pastors, preachers, evangelists or elders.
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Tima,
THANK YOU for your excellent contributions.
Check out the language in Divorce: A Gift of God’s Love
It is also based on the original meanings.
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32- Dav
I used to attend Tony’s church and others in the same city. His comments don’t surprise me.
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TIMA – In the case of my own pastor, he believes in servant-leadership, & also believes in – & urges – individuals in the church to develop & use their gifts in ministering inside & outside of the church.
Your statement that my faith would not be able to grow as God intends in this kind of church is off-base. You don’t know me nor the things I’ve gone through that have helped grow my faith.
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Tima (35),
Just for the record, I think I’m supposed to be Lucifer. Nobody’s called anyone Screwtape yet, if you’d like that moniker instead.
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I think we’re all on the same page on this thread, but just get all caught up in our individual traditions and semantics. That’s really sad.
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43-
That is not uncommon, is it?
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outkast 37~
okay, Emmaus College is “open” pb’s. our group now identifies more with that line of thought and one of the reasons for our split- not wanting to be so “closed” …
don’t know too many from the open side yet.
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Glad to hear that, Annelise. I”m very familiar with the “exclusive brethren,” and though I respect their theology I agree that believers need to be more of a light to the world (and more respective to other Christians who believe differently than us on a semantic level. As my dad says, “We need to agree to ‘major in the majors and minor in the minors.’”
BTW, I graduated from EBC and was their Director of Publications for severals years during the ’90s. It’s great to be back in fellowship with those godly men and women today!
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Dan Smith, Dave Glock, Ken Fleming, David McLeod, Charlie Fizer, Rob Tyler, Keith Leverentz, Steve Witter . . . I could go on and on with recommendations for incredible “open brethren” speakers from Emmaus.
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Tony – 42
YOU WRITE: …..
“Tima (35) Just for the record, I think I’m supposed to be Lucifer.”
Tony If that’s what was meant its pure garbage, no one would believe it?
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Victoria
All I can do is chuckle. You give me scripture that does not say “preach” anywhere and you say it is your guide for who should preach. I give you scripture that says who is to preach and you say I’m not being biblical. We both serve a merciful God and we’re both in need of mercy. We meet in homes but don’t call it home church. I call it 100% church. 100% giving going beyond you. No pooling for us. 100% participation when the saints gather. No outsourcing to hired experts. 100% one another communication. No one-way communication. 100% leadership reproduction. No turf protection. God didn’t ask for substitute ideas here.
Karen
Every pastor in every church will talk servant leadership and encourage people to minister. But there are false boundaries and exceptions built in that nullify the commands of Christ. I have already explained some of them. You don’t have an understanding of the institutionalized system they must function in. Your own suggestion that they have authority over you and give scripture about them “ruling” and we should obey them tells me he preaches this text to you with all the bogus translation included.
I don’t have to know you and how your faith has grown. I’m sure it has. I know the environment and the system that you are in. I also know what God has designed for us, and it will not happen in that system.
Outkast
You say you value exegetical teaching. I give an exegetical explanation of Hebrews 13: 7 & 17 and you say we’re caught up in traditions and semantics? Excuse me for trying to “reprove, rebuke and exhort”. The traditions of the apostles are very important, you know that being a Brethren. You know how they are warped in the institutionalized form. Breaking addictions to bogus traditions is tough work. Jesus had a hard time breaking it and it killed Him. Give some space.
Tony
Thanks, I feel better. Yes, you’re right. Thanks for putting in a good challenge but I don’t think much light was realized this time.
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Tima,
My husband is an ordained Presbyterian pastor, though not currently serving as pastor to a church (long story). As a Presbyterian, he often reminded the church he pastored that he was the “teaching elder” and the “elders” were the “ruling elders.” So he was not in charge, the people in authority in the church were the elected elders, those chosen by the people to handle adminstration, make recommendations for major decisions to be voted on by the church, and to lead various working committees (i.e. the people who did things like planning potluck meals and teaching Sunday School and doing building maintenance, etc.) So I don’t think that the pastor being “in charge” is necessarily built into the system. That was one reason my husband chose to be ordained in the Presbyterian church.
Did you used to post on this blog under a different screen name? I remember conversations here and by email with a Tim who was involved in the kind of church you describe and who sent me info on it, a few years ago. I looked at some kind of listing of groups meeting that way in various areas and didn’t see any around here. (Though I don’t know that my husband would be interested in any case, he likes leading a home Bible study but he also sees an important role for something more formal. Plus music is a big part of worship for our rather musical family, and what can be done musically in a home is somewhat limited.)
I was thinking about this yesterday during church, especially as I’ve also been conversing on the topic on my blog and at someone else’s blog I linked to. Our pastor preached a good, fairly brief message on prayer, then allowed at least ten minutes (while the worship team played some music) for people to pray either at their seats or to get up and go to one of at least ten couples at various places around the room to pray with (those couples having volunteered to do this), or to go make things right with someone, and/or to take Communion at one of several tables around the room. So it was more interactive than a lot of services, and I thought it was very good (I found myself praying with a couple who happen to be the pastor’s secretary and the VP who heads my department at work). After church (while my older son headed to a kids class he volunteers with and my younger son headed for his class/small group) I went to my small group, where we share, pray, study the Bible (and planned a group picnic for later this month).
To me, that is a good balance of small group where we each use our gifts and encourage and exhort one another, and large group worship and teaching with multiple leaders who can help guide the larger group in the direction the (lay) leaders sense God is leading us. From what I understand it’s not clear just how the pastors (shepherds) and bishops (overseers) functioned in the NT church, but I think of the small group leaders as our shepherds and our church “pastors” – especially the senior pastor – as overseers for all the small groups.
It’s true that not everyone who attends our church will get involved in a small group – I think the current goal is to get 50% involved (and I’m not sure how close we are to that goal). But there are all kinds of small groups and activities to help people find a group to fit into, and I would rather have both the large and small groups even though it allows some people to skip the small group part. If there were only churches meeting in homes, those people would probably not get involved anyway. And I don’t think our pastor gives them a pass in terms of feeling they can just come to church and feel that’s enough – two weeks ago in his sermon he told the people who want to just come to church and feel good about themselves spiritually and not get involved that he’d rather they leave because they’re not on the same team.
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AnneliseFrench & Outkast:
I too grew up in a pb meeting, until recently having identified myself more with the exclusive position. I have become convinced in the past years that the exclusive position is problematic in a number of ways, and have become much more open in my own thinking. (We also were involved with a split in the last decade or so, sounds like it could be the same split that Annelise refers to.) Currently I am in Wausau, WI and our chapel has had several of the teachers that Outkast refers to as guest speakers in the past couple of years. I fully concur that they are godly men with a great ability to teach the word. Annelise who are some of the leaders that you are familiar with?
Peter
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Elders of the New Testament church were the pastors see Ephesians -
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 2 Timothy 1:11
Paul an ordained preacher, appointed and a teacher by whom? the LORD –
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Romans 1:1
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Romans 10
Paul wrote Romans: He was called, he was given a gift to preach – Paul preached , Paul was sent –
Ephesians
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11
Bishops or overseers” (Acts 20:28), Hebrews 13:7 “leaders” and “rulers”
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their Hebrews 13:7
1 Thess. 5:12) of the flock. Everywhere in the New Testament bishop and presbyter are titles given to one and the same officer of the Christian church. He who is called presbyter or elder on account of his age or gravity is also called bishop or overseer with reference to the duty that lay upon him (Titus 1:5-7; Acts 20:17-28; Phil. 1:1).
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves. 1 Thessalonians 5
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Thanks Peter.
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Tima,
You have twisted the Word of God. Men are chosen of GOD to teach, preach, pastor, etc., this might not settle well for you, many people like you, want to run their own ship, they are not accountable to anyone, they CHOOSE their gifts –
When a man begins to ‘try’ to preach/teach/evangelize who has not been given this gift by the LORD it’s obvious – On the other hand each one of us are to witness and spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all we meet, this is entirely different than preaching.
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Peter V
Do you know Becky and Phil Buch? I believe they are from there. We know Becky and her family well. She lived in PA and attended our assembly in her high school years. Her dad, Grant Steidl, was a leader in our assembly during my high school years.
We brought our youth group to a youth conference to Wausau back in 2002. Maybe you were there?
Let’s see- not sure who I know as leaders in WI. But I will name a few leaders that I have known most of my life- see if you know them.
Ian Taylor
The Bill, Todd, Tim Van Ryn’s
Eugene Vedder
Fritz Geiger and Larry Stassel were formerly of our assembly.
Going to the Winter Youth Retreat/Jubilee? We are planning to attend.
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Tima – Actually, my pastor has not preached on that (pastors ruling over us) nor emphasized it at all, that I recall. I read the Bible myself & am familiar with that passage.
Because of my understanding of Jesus’ teaching of servant-leadership, when I read that passage I do not consider the type of authority they have to be tyrannical or a “do as I say” kind of thing, but a gentle-but-firm leading in the ways of the Lord.
“…for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account.”
This indicates to me that they hold some sort of responsibility for/over us, even if one were to disagree with the translation of “rule” & being “submissive”.
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Outkast, Annelise, or Peter – Would you please explain “exclusive” & “open”, as you use them?
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I’m sure there are some exceptions out there. You have to read the pastoral industry books and journals, as I have for many years. They will usually talk both servant leadership and something like “strong leadership” or a compatible phrase. The instituitonal church is combined box of many elements that must be protected – money coming in, people feeling good, comparing well with other churches in town, and many more. If you are a compliant church member you may never experience the “lording over dynamic”. If you become a Berean, examin what you are told with the scriptures to see if it’s true Acts 17:11, find a significant error, communicate that error to the pastor or elders, you will likely see servant leadership go out the door – specially if what you suggest is perceived by them to jeapardize the key institutional elements they must protect. These are seen as more important than one person with a message from God. These are even more important than clear scriptural revelation. They will say they don’t see it your way and ask you to be quiet about it or go somewhere else. I have read the pastoral books about handling “difficult people” or “dragons in the church”, etc.
The pastor of our last institutional church was a very relaxed man and not tyrannical as far as I could see for 12 years. Then I became a Berean. He never became tyrannical but at one point would refuse to talk to me, and then shortly there after called out another staff member and a deacon to give us the 2Thes. 3 warning – distancing himself from any personal involvment in the final power play. This text is usually taken COMPLETELY out of context and applied to whatever they want to get silence or kick you out the door. It’s all part of the system. It is hidden quite well. They will claim they are “leading in the ways of the Lord”, but they are actually leading in the ways of the “traditions of men”.
Yes, there is responsiblity for giving oversight. It’s only oversight. Overseers must give an account for this. It’s not over-talking, over-thinking, over-controling, over-deciding; over-visioning; or anything else. It’s very simple.
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Annelise
I know Eugene Vedder pretty well (but I’ve always called him Dad.)
Phil and Becky Buch were in our home just last night. Phil is one of my closest friends here in Wausau, we work together on a lot of things.
Actually I know everyone on the list of names you have given, and suspect that you know my sister and brother-in-law in Sunbury.
Planning to be at WYR, but not registered yet. Send me an email at petervedder at gmail dot com.
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Adding to the PB l ist, from middle Kansas,
Jim and Joy Holmes
Duane and Carolyn Schmidt
The Newcomb Family
we enjoyed fellowship at Gospel Chapel for a while
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almost forgot, Kansas Bible Camp right by our home
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Karen O
I will be happy to take a stab at that question of what is meant by open and exclusive. But do not assume that my answer is all inclusive.
About 180 years ago the plymouth brethren movement started. The leaders of the movement were mostly men who had been in other churches and were well versed in the scriptures. They studied the bible and became convinced that there are many doctrines and practices in many established church denominations that are either anti-biblical or extra-biblical. They began to meet together in a simple fashion trying to use the new testament church as the model and guide. Local churches began in many places with this same goal. Some of the things that these local churches hold is that there should be a communion or breaking of bread every week, that each local church is in fact a “lay” church (although many would not like that term.) There is also not a central organization such as may be found in the Catholic church or the Methodist church. However since there are many local churches that are similar, it is very common that there is some moving between them, and so although I live in Wausau, WI, I know many of the same people that Annelise and Outkast know, even though they live in Pennsylvania and Iowa–and I know I have never met Outkast and am trying to figure out if I have met Annelise.
Because this was somewhat of a separatist movement, and because it was in response to abuses of various denominations, there was always the question of what the relationship to other groups or denominations should look like. Within the many local churches there were two schools of thought that eventually divided the group into “open” and “exclusive” camps.
The exclusives felt that in a group where there is the kind of working relationship and exchange that I described above, any decision made in locality a must be followed by all other local churches in the group. This leads to the problem that if there is a division in a local church, say in Wausau, every other brethren church in the world must declare which side they are going to associate with, no matter how trivial the issue that caused the division is.
The opens felt that although there is a fair amount of exchange and working together between different local churches, a decision that affects one church may or may not affect another. If it is a matter of excommunication for one reason or another, the excommunication in location A will usually be recognized in location B. But occasionally not. So the problem on the open side is that there is the possibility of someone who does something that would require church discipline just moving to a different local church where he/she can make a case that the local church that exercised discipline was wrong, and the problem does not get solved.
The other big area that this affects is communion. As in “Who is welcome to participate in the communion service?” The opens believe that if you are a Christian and are not living a life of unrepentant sin, then you are welcome. The exclusives practice what is referred to as a guarded communion. In this thinking, a person should only participate in communion as part of one group of churches. So if a non-brethren person comes as a visitor, they generally are not welcome to participate. If a brethren person from a different local church comes, and there is that working relationship, and that person does regularly participate at home, they are welcome. By participating in communion, one is expected to not be participating in other churches communions, say baptist or presbyterian.
When I write all this down I look and see many warts in the way we have done things. Seems like just so many man made rules, and in many ways this is true, sadly. As I said earlier, I grew up as an exclusive, but have more recently come to see the open position as being closer to what the scripture teaches–realizing that until we are with Christ there will not be any such thing as a perfect local church. And take my explanations here for what they are worth. Since I am open at this time, I may have presented things in a way that is too harsh on my exclusive brothers and sisters or too rosy a picture for the opens. With all the warts, I enjoy the simplicity of the way the church functions. And I enjoy the greater participation that is expected when there is a “lay” church. So I stay. But given just the few things I’ve written, I totally understand anyone who looks and decides that the whole thing is just a series of rules made by men and looks in other directions.
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I want to join the PB list too. I spent much of my childhood in a PB assembly and my father is a commended worker (most active in Eastern US during the 70’s). He is 82 years old now, but last I knew he was still speaking every month in a small assembly about 70 miles from his home.
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Thanks, Peter, for that interesting explanation.
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Karen O
I do hesitate to put things like that out there. I feel like I am airing all of my dirty laundry.
Makes me wonder how the writer of Judges felt about including the last few chapters, or how Moses felt about writing about Judah and Tamar. (But my writing is in no way inspired by God.)
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Karen: Peter did a good job explaining different aspects of the PB movement. In short, “exclusive” assemblies don’t allow “just anyone” to worship (break bread) with them, while “open” assemblies have Communion that is open to anyone claiming Christ. Sometimes when people move from one open assembly (which the major of them are open), they take some sort of “letter of commendation” from the elders at their former church.
Overall, the major distinctives of the PB assemblies include the priesthood of all believers and a weekly Breaking of Bread service (with multiple men offering songs, devotionals and and prayers during each simple service). Many of the women in a lot of these churches also wear headcoverings.
Peter and Reg and Ajisuun would probably smile when I mention “the black book” (”Hymns of Worship & Remembrance” used during B of B services). When I was really young, our assembly used tiny hymnbooks with no music (and no musical accompaniment).
BTW, I still value my John Nelson Darby translation (which ironically is signed by Jerry Falwell, for whom my dad used to work).
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Outcast, I did smile when you mentioned “the black book”. The assembly I grew up in certainly used it during the Breaking of Bread service and we did not use accompaniment in that service. The quietness of the breaking of bread service as people worship in silence and wait for the Holy Spirit to prompt one of the men to lead out in prayer, song or Scripture is one of the harder things for people to get used to when coming from a different tradition, but is one of the things that I miss the most.
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Someone (not in the Assembly movement) jokingly told me recently that PBs should copyright the way we do B of B. It’s certainly unique among all the denominations of churches I’ve ever visited, and a person does indeed have to experience it to understand the tremendous worship experience it is when the Holy Spirit leads (and not a singular pastor behind a pulpit).
I love listening to a great expositional sermon being preached by a man of God, but tears literally run down my face when I see God doing ALL the leading during Breaking of Bread.
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PeterV
Becky and I lived in Switzerland for one year after hs graduation and were close friends; my sisters, Julie and Esther, lived with Beth in Chicago, along with Sherry Van Ryn and several other gals. Grant and Barb were close to my parents when they lived in Sunbury. My dad doesn’t get close to many of the brothers, but he did with Grant. We have many happy memories of them.
My parents no longer attend the assembly, as they left before our split. They theoretically believe in the rightness of house church, but my dad won’t go unless they agree with him…:)so they go nowhere!
Yes, now that I know your family name, I do know your sister and family. I don’t think we have ever met.
I play the piano for our assembly, and even though we are free to use it now for worship meeting, we don’t. There are some songs that I wish we did! Esp. #277
AJISUUN- were you in open or closed?
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#68- Outkast,
Please . . . not the little black book . . . oh, the memories . . . does it still have a little red tint to the edge of the pages?
Tears start running down my face, too, (but perhaps for other reasons) when I think of how God mysteriously led someone like clockwork each and every Sunday at about 10 minutes before the hour to spontaneously stand up, read the Last Supper narrative relating to the bread, pray, remove the requisite pomegranate-and-bell-decorated cloth from the bread, and pass it around. The only thing more amazing than that was the clockwork-like movement of the Spirit about five minutes later with respect to the wine (or the grape juice if you had teetotallers running the show). The timing of the Spirit’s movement each week was eerily punctual.
Oh, and the other thing that gets me really teared up is the way each of the “assemblies” experiences unhappy splits every couple of years at best; must be that mysterious movement of the Holy Spirit, again. My dad is exactly like Annelisefrench’s– he abandoned the assembly because it didn’t agree with him in every little respect, even though he’ll defend to his death Darby’s bizarre theologies and Broadbent’s untenable “history.” And this is from a guy who grew up with all the big names in the assemblies circulating through his home.
I think Peter V nailed it in #62– “About 180 years ago, the Plymouth Brethren movement started . . .”
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“I love listening to a great expositional sermon being preached by a man of God, but tears literally run down my face when I see God doing ALL the leading during Breaking of Bread.”
the priesthood of believers functioning
this is what I meant earlier when I said that there is way too much spectating going on in what we call church
I would not limit the participation to men
See Donadld Joy’s Two Become One
I don’t have time to reference all the many passages he explains from the languages
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My church (an Assembly of God) has been making little changes here & there throughout the past few years. The Sunday night meeting went from being another worship-service-&-sermon to a Believer’s Meeting, with everyone encouraged to share. Eventually that meeting became a once-a-month meeting. We have a Bring-Your-Own-Lunch Fellowship after church once a month. And there are some other ideas in the works which would seem to be moving in a more non-traditional direction.
Even before those changes, though, we’ve been a church of people encouraged to offer a testimony or prayer, or lead out with a song.
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Forgive me if I came across as a little harsh or cynical in #70. I have a lot of respect for many of the people caught up in the constantly splintering PB movement, but not much respect for the typical Darbyite claims that the ostensibly “only New Testament-based” gatherings of PBs are free of tradition (as if that makes them right, anyway, in some sort of Nestorian way) and that someone 1700 years is even capable of passing judgment on the Church that supposedly became corrupt as early as the time of the Apostles and was preserved intact via heretical groups such as the Cathars and Bogomils that were maligned by the existing socio-political powers. Lord have mercy– on me, especially, for opening my big mouth.
– Jonny
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Karen
Very nice. It is great to hear about change towards God’s plan, not away from it. God designed us for personal expression.
1. That’s why we are a royal priesthood. The purpose of a priest is to “proclaim the glories of Him who called us out of darkness into the light.” Proclaim means speak, testify, and even preach (keep it short so others can participate).
2. That’s why we are “members of one another” – to spur, exhort, encourage, teach, etc in one another fashion. – Two-way communication.
and many more reasons…
I hope the pastor, or better yet one of the “ordinary brothers” would give the saints the scriptural basis for these “believers meetings” so the saints realize they were made for this, not that this is just a fun idea from the pastor to help us feel closer or something like that. Many saints do not want to participate. Many saints don’t want other saints to talk because they don’t thing they have anything to offer them – they only want to hear the expert – after all would you go to a layman to have your appendix taken out… blah, blah. If the saints don’t get God’s call to this, the whole idea will die out and they can say we tried that and it didn’t work – let’s go back to more expert driven lectures.
The saints need to learn they should come prepared to speak from God. They would not respect the preacher to speak only off the cuff. They should not allow themselves to be lazy in this regard either. Six days of the week walking with God is enough time to prepare wisdom from God either from the Word or from a life experience. I would thing that if the saints knew what God has designed them to do they would be angry if never given an opportunity to share with their connected ones what God has given to them. Check out the beauty of Col. 3:16 – the “word of Christ dwelling in you richly as you…” , “with all wisdom..”.
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#69 Annelisefrench, I am definitely open. My father had a bad experience when he visited an exclusive assembly when he was a young Christian in Bible College. He pastored independent or Baptist churches for years before getting involved with the assemblies again.
Regarding using instruments- agreed, some groups should go ahead and use them. The assembly I grew up in was blessed with a man with perfect pitch who could start any song and a large group of people who could sing. A small assembly my parents were in later didn’t even try to sing acappella (which was a good thing).
Jonny- Yep, you sound cynical. Just because the service does follow some sort of time schedule doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit isn’t directing. My father always attends the Breaking of Bread service with some thought prepared related to the Lord’s Supper. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit wasn’t part of that? Sometimes he shares what he has prepared and sometimes he doesn’t, but I have seen over and over again how the hymns, prayers and other Scriptures read all come together in a common theme just as if they had been planned ahead of time.
I guess I missed something with splits and divisions. I haven’t seen that with any of the assemblies that I’ve been involved with.
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Ajisuun
Count your blessings as far as missing the splits and divisions…
Actually I really believe that the division was more of a tendency of the exclusive fellowship, in no small measure because of the tight relationship between the various local churches. If there is a dispute in Timbuktu that causes the local church to split, everywhere else local churches have to decide which side of the local church they are still associated with. If some decide one way and others decide the other, the fellowship is split in two with many others rejecting the brethren way of doing things in disgust.
But if we put our focus where it needs to be, ie “What do I need to do to serve God most effectively in the community in which He places me?” then we are not so concerned about the strife that is going on in other communities. Which is part of the reason that in spite of spending the first 30+ years of my life in one of the exclusive fellowships (and I know of at least 5 distinct exclusive fellowships) I now am a part of an open meeting.
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Someone must have abused Jonny as a child. And REG needs to read I Corinthians as much as he/she reads the Psalms.
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Jonny: I’m not sure what PB fellowship you attended, but at the one I attend it’s different every week. NOTHING is like clockwork, but everything is Spirit-led.
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If there is a dispute in Timbuktu that causes the local church to split, everywhere else local churches have to decide which side of the local church they are still associated with.
And this is the part that annoys me the most- when men from the USA go all over the globe, forcing divisions, forgetting the admonition of “marking those that cause divisions,” and thinking that the “sin” that caused the division is worse than what they are doing.
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