The Classic (ignorant) response
English professor Anthony Esolen says he used to be an academic Leftist, that he was as much a victim of ideology as any of his students or colleagues. But he “had long fallen in love with Plato, Chaucer, Pascal, and the rest,” which put him in a Catch-22 when students and professors at his college staged a panel discussion questioning the use and value of teaching the Classics.
A group of students, led by a newly arrived sociologist, had been roused to indignation at having to study Dante and Homer and Thomas Aquinas. They called themselves Students Organized Against Racism. What they wanted to study instead they never specified. It wasn’t math.
He attended the panel discussion and decided to float a question. “Why do you study Virgil?” he asked a pretty young ideologue who had the floor. He expected some pat political reply. But she said this:
“I don’t know why we study Virgil.”
I then remarked that Rome had exercised a profound influence upon the men who had founded the United States, and that the influence was not always benign; that John Adams, for one, looked to Livy for his political inspiration; that there were legends in Livy — Horatius slaying his sister when he found her weeping, because he had triumphed in battle over her Alban fiancee — that could expose Roman and Western ideas of virtue to searching criticism.
“If you’re reading Virgil and Livy and you’re not subversive,” I said, “you’re not trying.”
Then she shocked me again. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” she said. And the audience erupted into laughter and applause.
Great Literature is Great Literature because it’s full of all the genius and art and contradiction and mystery and curiosity of lived life. That’s why there’s nothing more subversive than studying the Classics. They subvert Dull Thought and Thoughtlessness. They expose the cracks in the virtues of the West, while shining a light on their brilliance and durability. That’s subversion.




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back to top28 Comments to “The Classic (ignorant) response”
Too much literature, though, is Grate Literature.
(And some of it is below the grate.)
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Why bother with thought. Let’s kill us some moose! And some of them Mohammedans. ‘Sides, there’s only one book that has anything to say…
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Arcadia, next thing you know, you will be asking, “Can I get me a huntin’ license here?”
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Mark, you are on a roll today.
Also, great literature is often pompous, verbose, and full of itself, and sometimes full of it. As are some bloggers.
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I majored in classics that involved a fair amount of reading Greek and Roman literature in the original. This was in the late fifties when ideological liberalism was even then in the ascendant. One can simply not read The Republic and fall into the intellectual trap of naturalism, simple Enlightenment rationalism, and romanticism. It is no accident that the best book on this subject is The Closing of the American Mind by Alan Bloom, classicist at Chicago, who translated The Republic into English
Interesting too that our greatest president, Lincoln, had six-months of formal education, though through reading and rereading the Bible, Aesop’s Fables, Pilgrim’s Progress, Euclid, Shakespeare, and Blacstone he developed a fine, acute, and original mind.
Arcadia, Sarah Palin may not have intellectual depth, though she is bright and through good sense, a fine Christian upbringing, superb athletic ability, and strong character bids fair to become a formidable political force and possibly a great statesman. We shall see. Your reduction of her to a bigoted moose hunter raises a question about the quality of your own mind.
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I think we have a dearth of folks versed in the writings of these various dead white men. This sort of dovetails in with the recent post about Penguin classics and footnotes which clarify biblical references. If so much of what we know and believe and value is derived from the Classic thought, why then need anyone justify studying those original great works?
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That’s why there’s nothing more subversive than studying the Classics.
And that’s why HSK is such a rabble rouser?
“Why do you study Virgil?” he asked a pretty young ideologue who had the floor.
Is he talking about Palin again?
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A group of students, led by a newly arrived sociologist, had been roused to indignation at having to study Dante and Homer and Thomas Aquinas. They called themselves Students Organized Against Racism. What they wanted to study instead they never specified. It wasn’t math.
LOLOLOLOLOL
I will never forget when the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) rioted on the Silo Tech campus – they specifically attacked and burned down the Music Hall where the marching band stored all their instruments and uniforms. They didn’t like Military Marching songs or the war in Vietnam either I guess
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‘Great Literature is Great Literature because it’s full of all the genius and art and contradiction and mystery and curiosity of lived life. That’s why there’s nothing more subversive than studying the Classics. They subvert Dull Thought and Thoughtlessness. They expose the cracks in the virtues of the West, while shining a light on their brilliance and durability. That’s subversion.’
Well, thankfully all the people that wrote them are dead and it’s time to forget them
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# 5 ARCADIA,
Hogwash, If she ain’t machine gunning polar bear cubs at a distance in a whiteout, she ain’t huntin. Anyone can hit a bull Moose with a rifle on a clear day.
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Arcadia – Having followed Ms. Palin’s career for a while now, I have come to see her as a fairly bright and clearly capable woman who just happens to be unburdened by an Ivy League education.
I’ve been to 3 large universities (though none were Ivy League) and ended up with a doctorate, and worked in a highly competitive field (with and against many Ivy Leaguers). Among the top 5 smartest people I’ve ever met< I still have a person who never finished high school and one who never went beyond high school.
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KRM: “Unburdened by an Ivy League education”. Now there’s a phrase to conjure with. It’s almost a good as “unburdened by a high school education”.
I don’t know if you have any kids, but I was darn thrilled when my daughter took on that Ivy Burden. It might even have been the proudest day of my life.
As for Ms Palin, if she’s so smart, you’d think she might be able to handle a couple of questions from the public whom she could conceivably one day send into war. Actually, on re-reading your post, “fairly bright and capable” is not high on my list of qualifications for a person to lead the nation.
I want the smartest S_B I can find who is intellectually curious, capable of learning and storing vast amounts of information and speaking in a knowledgeable informed manner with every other S_B who has clawed his way to the top rung of some country. I want someone in whom the characteristics of religious tolerance and profound respect for free speech and civil liberties is tempered only by the determination and skills to defend the country against some very sophisticated foes.
And, like it or not, and I do think you will agree with me here, a huge majority of people who meet all of those criteria are ambitious and smart enough to somehow get to the top of the academic heap and get into some very good schools where they are ususally exposed to some of the best minds we know.
Yes there are exceptions. I have seen nothing to convince me that Ms Palin is one and, I doubt you have either. As I posted the other day, so far, all I see is a hairdo over a smile and the ability to read from a teleprompter or memorize a couple of quips.
She’s a small-time pol who happened to be at the right moment of herstory.
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Well Arcadia, My sister is 4′11″ and went Moose hunting. She dropped a 1500 pounder with a single shot to the head at 75 yards with a 270. I suppose you could do better?
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As I read the title of HSK’s post, I thought to myself “I wonder how many posts it will be before one of the liberal/leftists bring McCain/Palin into it.”
I thought it would be at least 10…
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The smartest three people I know are a PhD from LSU, a PhD from USC (SoCal), and a PhD from Cal Tech.
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There is nothing wrong in itself with an Ivy League education. Anyone who has been to one knows that these colleges are inhabited by many excellent minds among both the Faculty and students. Most sensible students in these colleges are in fact humbled by their own intellectual limitations, though they might have thought themselves stars during naive school days.
The problem is that in the modern world since the Renaissance intellectual genius is way overvalued, many Ivy League and other first-rate college students conclude that they are some sort of an intellectual elite. The truth is that what counts more than intellectual ability or even genius is character; that is why Lincoln with six-months of formal schooling is judged a better president than the Harvard educated Roosevelts and Kennedy. Same with Washington who had little schooling. It’s, also, why George Bush appreciated his Southwest background perhaps more than Andover, Yale, and Harvard. He, also, understood, as most sensible Ivy League people do, that what really counts at Ivy league schools is the bauble of social class.
Despite all this one can treasure an Ivy League education, just as any serious student, no matter from what background, treasures his or her education.
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There is an anti-intellectual strain in both religion and right-wing politics about which I am always suspicious.
The political strain is nurtured by those who don’t want the plebes to have the tools to find out what is going on. They also need bodies to do the grunt work.
The religious strain is self-explanatory. Ask Galileo, Salman Rushdie or any poor son of a gun trying to teach biology in Kansas.
At the same time, yes, academia is often is guilty of tying itself into all kinds of weird knots. Those trends ususally pass.
Bob Buckles: what, no one with a BA from Idaho State? I’m sure the school has produced some very fine minds, maybe even some Presidential material. But odds matter.
As for the other schools you mention, I would have been equally thrilled if my daughter graduated magna cum laude in engineering (sometimes I do have to brag about her) from any of them, too. And I would even have been satisfied if she got her BA from ISU after attending five schools in six years. But I want more from a likely President.
I have three daughters. The Ivy grad who also picked up her MBA while pregnant and working at a brutal job last year, a Masters certified and licensed counselor, and a college dropout. And if I try to imagine any of them who might be foolish enough to go into politics and find herself in the WH during a crisis, yes, I would rank their ability to handle it in exactly that order. Despite the burden of an Ivy League education.
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The two smartest people I know:
My algebra teacher, Mr. Mays. I know he has three degrees (what kinds I don’t know) and worked for Apple before he decided he liked teaching.
My dad. In case you scoff at me for being biased, he could burn all your houses down, and often does, ranting to me instead of typing. He doesn’t have an account, though I think it would be really awesome if he joined WMBers. In case you’re wondering, he has only a diploma, went straight to the Marine Corps after high school.
My point is this: a person’s “smartness” isn’t necessarily decided by how many random letters are tacked on the end of their name.
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I was an Ivy League professor (Penn), but I hated it (and urban life) and left for a rocky mountain state school in a Thoreau-esque move that left all my colleagues pronouncing me “gone mad.”
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Peter Leavitt
I read the Closing of the American Mind and came to the conclusion that Bloom was upset because sixties radicals dared question his authority. He had some valid concerns but were drowned out by his whining and complaining.
Anti-intellectualism in America is guided not only by a refusal to accept reason over faith but a refusal to learn from history — history is a dangerous knowledge and its missing in a country that always looks forward and forgets the past refusing to learn from mistakes.
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But HRW, I consider you an “intellectual” and you admire Dennis Kucinich.
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which is why you consider me an intellectual
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arcadia:
There is an anti-intellectual strain in both religion and right-wing politics about which I am always suspicious.
This is a great example of bigotry. Communist atheistic regimes had systematic anti-intellectual policies and practices that make the examples you cite look like a picnic. Millions of people died, some simply because they had books. But you are upset about Kansans who simply want to teach more than the state curriculum.
There is plenty of anti-intellectualism to go around, even in our ostensibly most intellectual places. But your admitted suspicions betray a closed-minded and bigoted attitude.
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Amphi — I think that anti-intellectualism rather stands out. And alas, it has been well documented.
It does seem that what we seek at the best for our leaders are individuals who have a sense of context regarding the past (that’s where history and the classics come in), and about the current situation. They need to be something of a generalist, more fox than hedgehog, so the very focused do not do especially well in politics, as the act of intellectual focus can rob one of breadth (a reason why you see few PhDs or MDs in Congress).
While HSK brings up the shallowness of so many on the political left, there is also a similar quality on the right, a lack of curiosity about the world, say; or the contentment with what are parochial views.
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They expose the cracks in the virtues of the West, while shining a light on their brilliance and durability.
Yes, but what’s wanted today is the former, not the latter. The balance has gone and it took the light with it.
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Whittaker Chambers asserts in his autobiographical book, “Witness”, that Communists deliberately and calculatedly set out to infiltrate three key American institutions: education, media, and non-elected government positions. He knows because he was a Communist; he funneled state secrets from Alger Hiss, FDR’s right hand man, to the Soviets.
And you wonder why the media and universities are so leftist?
They’ve been infiltrated and never cleaned out.
That’s why “educated” people tend to vote leftist.
So it’s likely that “anti-intellectual” is a pejorative calculated to instill disdain for those who haven’t been, ahem, “properly educated”, so that their viewpoints can be dismissed as “ignorant”.
Arcadia, you are obviously ignorant of the Bible’s book of Proverbs, which espouses the virtues of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
“Ignorance is bliss” is not a Bible verse, but rather, “My people perish for lack of knowledge.”
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Re #5 Allan Bloom was a promiscuous homosexual who understood Plato’s Symposium was one big defense of homosexual eros, however sublimated. Socrates too was, like Bloom, a homosexual philosopher.
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Jon Row Plato made clear in his Laws that homosexual acts were a disorder of nature. In section 636 he wrote …it should be understood that the pleasure is given according to nature it seems when the female unites with the natures of males for procreation. Males coming together with males, and females with females, seems against nature.
As to Bloom unquestionably he was a flaming homosexual, though in Closing of the American Mind he discreetly made no mention of this. One can respect Bloom’s contribution to American thought without approving his tendency to homosexual behavior.
Also, according to A.E. Taylor, one of the classic Plato scholars, homosexual behavior was confined to a few among the elite of the Greeks and that such behavior was illegal and abhorred by Greek public opinion. There is no clear evidence that Socrates was a homosexual; in fact Plato’s Symposium has him clearly staving off Alcibiaes’ advances.
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