Paternity leave makes real men
Rowenna Davis, a columnist for The Guardian in London, is calling for the United Kingdom to adopt Norway’s six-week, use-it-or-loose-it, paternity-leave policy. To reinforce her reasoning, Davis’ cites a new report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which notes that the number of women working in top-level jobs decreased in 2008. The report states: “There are fewer women MPs, cabinet members, national newspaper editors, senior police officers and judges, NHS executives, trade union leaders and heads of professional bodies today than in 2007.” The solution, wrote Davis, is “non-transferable paternity leave” for six weeks, just like the Norwegians have.
Non-married, childless women have historically been able to achieve just as much professional success as their male peers, including salary equality. The reason that women’s income is typically lower than men’s reflects the fact that if women want to pursue motherhood they must trade-off professional success at times. It’s just a fact.
Davis argues that paternity for men should become national law for the following reasons:
First, it forcibly breaks down the stereotype that women are housewives and men are breadwinners. Anyone who thinks that social stereotypes that pressure individuals into gender roles don’t exist is having a laugh.
The second benefit of use-or-lose paternity leave is that it evens the cost to employers of hiring men and women. Women will no longer have to disproportionately bear the burden of hearing their bosses’ mental alarm bells ring.
Third, paternity leave gives dads confidence. Many men might quite like to be stay-at-home fathers, but they are just scared about how to do it.
Finally, paternity leave is likely to improve children’s relationships with their fathers and provide more male role models for our young people. Instead of being secluded in the office, men will be able to put their all into their child’s development.
Davis expects all kinds of cultural change by the overlapping of six-week paternity intervals in the office. Not hardly. Here’s where our feminist friend misses the point.
First, a silly rule like this does not change so-called “stereotypes” about the roles of men and women. It’s not a stereotype. Men can’t be mothers. Perhaps Davis is unaware that children remain in the home for longer than six weeks and kids increasingly get more expensive as they age. Households need income.
Second, this silly rule would actually hurt married men, as well. If I were an employer, I would only want to hire single men with no kids. In Davis’ new world both married men and women would sound the same “six-weeks of potential lack of productivity” alarm. Why is it better for married men and women alike to become the least preferred employee candidates?
Third, what kind of “confident” man would want to be a “stay-at-home” dad while the rest of the men are out doing stuff? I don’t think men are scared to be a home, most simply have no interest in not having a full-time job, and why should they?
Finally, and most ridiculous of them all, paternity leave improves father-child bonding. Seriously? If it were true that a father’s physical presence is all that was necessary for intimacy then America would be a radically different country. Intimacy between a father and his children extend beyond six weeks into an entire life of pursuant love, not simply physical presence.
Trade-offs are a fact of life and having children is a positive trade-off for women and men alike. We can’t have our cake and eat it, too.




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back to top25 Comments to “Paternity leave makes real men”
I always love when women want to breakdown the sterotypes between men and women.
If you are a man don’t ever say something is womens’ work.
Of course when it suits them women have a very clear idea that certain things that are mens’ work.
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Where would we be on civil rights if we said “Well, that’s the way it’s always been and there’s no need to change anything”?
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I would say the most needed change in this country, would be for FMLA to be paid leave.
One of my co-workers took his full FMLA time off when his daughter was born. (He probably was less hesitant to do so than many of us would be, as he is British.)
When my daughter was born the following year, my wife took six weeks FMLA that were covered by her disability, to maintain 75% of her income. We could not afford to have her take the other six weeks unpaid that she was entitled to. I took my two-weeks of vacation. I could have taken an additional 10 weeks under FMLA
(Because, weirdly, the vacation and FMLA benefits are double counted… those two weeks would have tallied against both vacation and the 12 weeks of FMLA. To get your full FMLA benefits, it is best to exhaust your vacation early in the year, then you can get the full unpaid 12 weeks. This makes sense? But I digress.)
Although entitled to those 10 weeks, I couldn’t actually take them, because we couldn’t afford to have me do that. Otherwise, I would have taken them in a heartbeat!
And I found this a very odd statement: …what kind of “confident” man would want to be a “stay-at-home” dad while the rest of the men are out doing stuff. Nice slam on SAHD’s, Anthony. Of what are they not confident? No, men can’t be mothers. But once you get past giving birth (and breast-feeding, if you choose to, although you can always save it, for times that Mom is not right there) I’m hard pressed to think of any reason why SAHD’s wouldn’t be confident. No “scare-quotes” are needed.
In fact, although part of me would choose to be a SAHD in a heartbeat if my wife’s income were high enough (and she would not choose to be a “stay-at-home” [See how odd those "scare-quotes" are!
]), what I wouldn’t be “confident” of is being up to doing all the things my wife can do when she’s at home, (in addition to working, of course!) I’m fully confident of everything else, thank you.
We pay lip-service in this country to something we call “family values”, but we don’t actually value families enough to make things easier for them. We grudge them time away from work to be with their families, making it unnecessarily burdonsome for Moms and Dads to balance their roles as parents and employees.
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That sounds great, Thomas, but where does the money come from to pay you for not working? And what if you’re self-employed? Or what if you’re in sales and your contacts find someone else while you’re away? And what about the degradation of your performance brought about by your absence? I took off 8 weeks once and felt noticeably less facile in the operating room when I returned.
It’s hard enough to justify holding a job without pay for someone on FMLA. There’s a fine line between an employee I can do without for 12 weeks and one I don’t need at all.
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Well said, Stubob. Paid FMLA would greatly hasten the discrimination against all but childless young men that Anthony discusses. What small business owner (mechanic or dentist, for instance) could keep afloat (to pay those unworked wages!) without the services of his only ASE-certified mechanic or his trained office manager? And this differs only by degrees from large corporations: short-staffed departments affect operations through delays, reduced output, and decreased quality, sending a ripple effect throughout the enterprise.
Perhaps Norway makes it work, somehow, but the Norwegian economy is not exactly the engine that drives the world.
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Generally, such laws have exceptions for small (<50 employee) businesses
I have a difficult time believing that if Norway can make it work, the largest economy in the world cannot find a way to make it work.
As Anthony says :
“Trade-offs are a fact of life and having children is a positive trade-off for women and men alike. We can’t have our cake and eat it, too.”
Having children, at least according to the people I see posting frequently here (and I agree with them!) is a positive trade-off for society as well – for the country, for business and so on. So why shouldn’t businesses or government step up to the plate, roll-up their sleeves, and help the moms and dads? Many larger companies appear to recognize this – offering flex scheduling and benefits that help retain employees.
But often, the trade off always seems to fall on one side only… and that, at least to me, makes the “family values” claims of those business and politcal leaders – err.. suspect.
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Trade-offs are a fact of life and having children is a positive trade-off for women and men alike. We can’t have our cake and eat it, too.
Not a very can-do attitude, very unAmerican of you. Why do Americans limit themesleves if the rest of the civilized world provides a form of paid leave why can’t America — is its economy that fragile? Once again the family values crowd refuses to put its money where its mouth sounds off.
this silly rule would actually hurt married men, as well. If I were an employer, I would only want to hire single men with no kids.
You realize its illegal to discriminate on the basis of marital status – you can’t ask the question on an application nor during an interview.
, a silly rule like this does not change so-called “stereotypes” about the roles of men and women. It’s not a stereotype. Men can’t be mothers.
No, but they can be parents and they can provide the same care and comfort a mother can with the obvious exception of breast feeding.
what kind of “confident” man would want to be a “stay-at-home” dad while the rest of the men are out doing stuff?
A man who loves his daughter. One who can change diapers, give baths, read bedtime stories, make meals, shop, make a hair bun for ballet, discuss the meaning of life, etc. While “the rest of the men” are doing “stuff”, confident and secure men value their families and wish to do “stuff” with their families.
paternity leave improves father-child bonding. Seriously? If it were true that a father’s physical presence is all that was necessary for intimacy then America would be a radically different country. Intimacy between a father and his children extend beyond six weeks into an entire life of pursuant love, not simply physical presence.
However, the more time spent increases the bonding experience and increases the appreciation for role of the at home parent and the miracle of growth. And yes if there was a greater physical presence of both parents, America would be a radically different country – but would improved family life be a bad thing?
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RR
Perhaps Norway makes it work, somehow, but the Norwegian economy is not exactly the engine that drives the world.
You’re right — but its not destroying the world’s economy either, an honor that the current housing crisis in America takes. In fact the combined EU economy roughly matches the US economy and most nations have some form of paid leave. IF the EU could afford it and still manage an economy almost the same size of America than why is America short changing itself.
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What small business owner (mechanic or dentist, for instance) could keep afloat (to pay those unworked wages!) without the services of his only ASE-certified mechanic or his trained office manager? And this differs only by degrees from large corporations: short-staffed departments affect operations through delays, reduced output, and decreased quality, sending a ripple effect throughout the enterprise.
What doom and gloom with an attitude like that America would never had put a man on the moon.
While mothers and fathers are on leave, short term contracts give young people experience and their foot in the door and at the same time allows corporations an opportunity to view prospective new employees without being tied down to a long term contract. When a permanent position does become available, the corporation has a number of people it knows who can step in. A lot less risk when offering a permanent position. BTW. every single new employee in the last four years at my job site was hired after covering a one year maternity leave.
As for small business, job sharing, reduced hours, partial leave and flex time are all options in most paternity leave programs.
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7-8-9. I almost don’t know where to start.
The combined EU economy has a lot more workers than the US of A, and so if it roughly matches the US economy, it’s not so efficient in terms of per-worker output, is it?
As for short-term contracts for earnest young people, you have not addressed the realities of my examples, in which expertise and experience are crucial. There may be many fine young people who are willing to work, but to step into a small office and take over the experienced billing manager’s responsibilities, or to fix cars like the guy who’s been perfecting his skills for 20 years, will be, um, difficult for them. It would be like a 22-y.o. fresh out of teacher’s college taking over your classroom for the rest of the term and achieving the same student outcomes. Not very likely. (I’m assuming, of course, that you are paid more than an entry-level teacher, and that more is expected of you. I could be wrong on both counts.)
As for my alleged gloom-and-doom attitude, let’s remember that we got to the moon on the backs of thousands of dedicated scientists, engineers and technicians who worked long hours over nearly ten years. IOW, no 12-week breaks.
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RR
Europe isn’t obsessed about efficiency and output although its output and the quality of output matches most economies; its overriding goal is quality of life and in that respect it has a successful economy.
I understand your experience question but I think over state the problem. In teaching, expectations are the same from Day One to Day One Thousand. The only difference may be leadership, mentoring, and committees but with our union that’s all optional anyway. And yes my pay is double a first year teacher — paternity leaves actually save the school board money since it pays entry level wages to the substitute while the more expensive teacher on leave receives his/her benefits from a gov’t run program. In the Canadian experience, the net benefit to society has overwhelmed any of the drawbacks that you cite. Our current leave program ( 66% tax free pay 1 year leave) has been in place for over 10 years and has become part of the way business is done. Employers have adapted.
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Painting concern over efficiency as “obsession” is not really an argument. As you’ve already admitted, America is a can-do society: we get a lot done, resulting in the creation of much wealth enjoyed not just by us but by the rest of the world. Other societies see things differently, and they are welcome to do so, but we won’t fret over being seen as unenlightened for not getting on board this particular train.
If I am overstating the experience problem, you are denying it. If you really contribute nothing more than a novice teacher, why are you paid more? If your present salary is nothing more than than your entry-level salary back in the day plus annual COLAs, then shouldn’t new teachers start at your present salary? After all, you provide no more benefit than they do (other than eligibility for entirely optional committee assignments!), and the only reason yours has increased is that the cost of living has soared, correct?
There’s also a big difference between the public and private sectors. Which mechanic would you prefer to figure out what’s wrong with your car, the guy who’s been honing his skills for decades, or the fresh new face from vocational school? Sure, the expectations are the same from day one to day one thousand, as you put it, but in the real world the customer just wants the thing fixed the right way the first time. Business owners know this, and know well that dissatisfied customers don’t come back. Parents, on the other hand, have very few options for their children, and will probably be stuck with you.
As for the costs, while your system may save the school board money, it sure doesn’t save the citizens any. Where do you think the funds for that gov’t run program come from?
And finally, yes, I’m sure the employers have adapted; what choice did they have? Meanwhile, I agree with those in the USA who see this kind of program as the stifling socialism that it is.
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2 – In redneck heaven, that’s where. And I mean redneck in the context of the Scottish Covenanters, not the bucktoothed, inbred, sunburn on the neck stereotype.
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Doesn’t this basically boil down to what are we (as INDIVIDUALS) willing to pay for? Any paid time off is going to be funded somehow, and that somehow ultimately ends up back in my pocketbook. Therefore, shouldn’t the bottom-line question here be: “Are you willing to pay your neighbor to take off 12 weeks to bond with his child?”
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Mommy,
Emphatically, YES, I am.
Because I believe that strong families are a benefit to society, I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is, whether it takes a little bit higher cost for the goods that I buy from companies that offer their employees these benefits, or through the tax system.
Some of the best companies that we have recognize these benefits, and are at the forefront of providing them voluntarily. I admire and like doing business with said companies.
On the other hand, it must be said, that there will always be companies that will try to get as much out of their employees for as little as they possibly can, offering benefits grudgingly if at all. It is my belief that such companies, not paying the full social cost of the labour they use, are basically relying on a social safety net, provided by government, for when they fall short. Basically, they make higher profits, and you pay higher taxes to ensure their employees don’t fall through the cracks.
Tell me again, please, how grudging benefits to families, how offering as little as possible to those trying to balance work and family responsibilities, actually demonstrates that we “value families.” Nope, seems they are just a cost to be minimized.
So yeah, I have a lot of trouble with the “family values” crowd, because where the rubber meets the road – pffft – the air goes out of the tires.
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Thomas,
Actually the “family values” crowd is the group that values family enough that one parent stays home full-time, and not just for 12 weeks or a year. And such families don’t want to be paying for the maternity leave of another family that, with two wage earners, has more money than they do.
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It would be a simple matter to address the unattractiveness of married folks to employers: compensate employers for lost productivity when their employees take the federally mandated leave.
Personally I think paternity leave is a good idea not because it would achieve some feminist utopia, but because mothers with new children typically need a lot of help and encouragement.
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Cheryl.
Actually, I value all families, whether they choose to have Mom, or Dad, or both working, and whether they absolutely positively both need to work financially, and whether there is one parent or two in the family. And in all such cases, for Mom or for Dad, I support the notion of paid leave. So, at least for a time, BOTH parents can be home. Or ONE, if that is all there is.
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Well said, Cheryl in 16. Sure, there are families with difficult circumstances wherein both parents must work FT to make ends meet, but they are the exception not the norm. These working parents also typically work lower skill / lower wage jobs, and would not be eligible for the glorious benefits offered by the sorts of companies Thomas loves to do business with anyway.
Buddy in 17: who compensates these employers again? That’s right, the taxpayers.
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Buddy in 17: who compensates these employers again? That’s right, the taxpayers
As well we ought to because we claim to value families.
As a society, we cannot have it both ways – having our cake and eating it too. Do we really value families, or do we value a few extra bucks in corporate profits more? Well, which is it?
Families, at least the ones I know, pretty much all are struggling to get by, and working as hard as they can. Who are you to be the arbiter of whether they can get by without Mom working full time or not?
Yet, you are ready to grudge every dime that flows from business to families.
And yet, you just may be surprised. Treat families a little bit better, and you will get, what? More loyal employees? People who want to come to work, and repay loyalty for loyalty? Better productivity? Better retention of trained employees? Nah, wouldn’t want those things!
If we claim to be for “family values,” then we should either put up or shut up.
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Who are you to be the arbiter of whether they can get by without Mom working full time or not?
I stand by my original comment, with bells on. Expectations of what a family needs to get by have soared over the last couple of generations, and we have the enormous home floor plans (and commensurate utility bills) and bloated entertainment spending to show for it. Even a typical American family’s concept of a week’s worth of groceries has changed drastically and unnecessarily: dessert for many kids growing up in the 50s and 60s was a serving of canned peaches with a little cream over it; now, everybody gets a Haagen-Dazs. Surely you’ve noticed the square footage of the average new tract home compared to what you grew up in? The average number of (new!) cars, television sets, and bathrooms per household? Average number of restaurant meals per week? Average cable TV bill? [In my work, I see the occasional bankruptcy filing. I had to laugh at one that listed a ginormous mortgage payment, two car loans, and a top-of-the-line cable package as reasons why they could only afford a measly payment to the trustee to pay off their other creditors!]
None of these material uber-blessings are in themselves bad things, yet they are surely not necessities. Kids are the losers when Mom and Dad are both away all day. Sometimes, as I already made allowance for, this is a sad necessity, but again this is the exception in affluent America, not the rule. Rising expectations, and the desire to have it all, account for the majority of these households.
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RR: Yes, the taxpayers. Now that I think of it, though, I’m not as supportive of paid leave. I’d rather see laws requiring employers to grant *unpaid* parental leave. They’re already required to grant 6 weeks unpaid leave to the mother. I’d support extending that, and adding one for fathers. Again, unpaid. This doesn’t entirely remedy the fact that married employees will be slightly less attractive, due to the possibility of them taking unpaid leave, but at least the employer doesn’t have to pay them while they’re gone. Seems like a reasonable compromise.
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Buddyglass,
FMLA grants unpaid leave. I believe it applies either to the mother or the father. My experience is that men rarely take that time off, although I heartily applaud those who do.
A co-worker who reported to me was able to take time off for the birth of his daughter. Financially, I was unable to, but I certainly would have if we had been a bit more stable when our daughter was born. Since he and I had similar incomes, what made the difference was that his wife earned more as a university professor than mine did as a grad student/ biological technician.
If and when we are blessed with another child, I fully intend to take advantage of my FMLA leave.
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From http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/fmla/
Family and Medical Leave Act
Overview
Covered employers must grant an eligible employee up to a total of 12 workweeks of unpaid leave during any 12-month period for one or more of the following reasons:
for the birth and care of the newborn child of the employee;
for placement with the employee of a son or daughter for adoption or foster care;
to care for an immediate family member (spouse, child, or parent) with a serious health condition; or
to take medical leave when the employee is unable to work because of a serious health condition.
I’m not certain of how the law is actually worded, but it appears that there is an exemption to favour the employer when both spouses work for the same company. For example, my wife and I could both take our 12 weeks of FMLA leave. However, my company’s policy manual (and I assume this is in compliance with the law) stipulates that if a husband and wife are both employeed here, they may take a combined total of 12 weeks. So this limits the impact on the company.
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RR,
Here’s an example of increasing expectations. Five years ago I bought a house built in the 1950s. Including the large den that used to be a garage, it’s less than 1,300 square feet. I bought it from a couple that had lived in it since 1976 and raised two or three children in it. It originally was three bedrooms and one bathroom, but they remodeled to make it two bedrooms and two baths. I wanted the second bathroom since I planned to rent out a bedroom and didn’t want to share a bathroom. But note that my housemate and I each have about 650 square feet of living space.
My real-estate agent told me (with a straight face) that I could live in it for a few years and then rent it out and buy a bigger one. Why does a single woman renting out one bedroom need a larger house? Now, I’d like to have a library, and I’d like to have a walk-in closet. But I don’t need those things. Looking at it another way, I have about the same square footage as my parents had in 1970 when they had six kids at home.
Most of the “poor” people I know have cable and newer cars than I do. I really don’t see it as my responsibility to pay a mother to stay home for a few weeks, and then go back to work so she can afford those luxuries that I myself don’t have. If a person has genuine needs, then it’s fine for people to help them. It isn’t fine for people to ask for government assistance to help raise their families just because they want it.
For the record, I have family members who easily qualify for government benefits (WIC and other stuff) that they do not take. My own father qualified, and never took them. But let’s say for the sake of argument that we decide to go with this system–how long before the liberals begin arguing that families can only take it twice, because no family should have more than two children? Would you be willing to cover my dad seven times, or most of my married siblings five times each? If not, then don’t say you care about the poor (families with large numbers of children tend to be poorer). And if you would be willing, then it might make more sense to see what the working poor really want–and for many of them, it isn’t government handouts, but it’s for government to stay off their backs, and not to tax them for benefits to others. Because, see, families that choose not to take government assistance are stronger families, and their kids don’t end up getting divorced or going to jail in anywhere near the numbers of those who feel that government “owes” them money.
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