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“Only those who obey …”
Søren Kierkegaard wrote:
“The matter is quite simple. The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined. How would I ever get on in the world? Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship. Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer then offered:
“Doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience. … It is a retreat from the reality of God to the speculations of men, from faith to doubt. [The rich young man of Matthew 19] had hoped to avoid committing himself to any definite moral obligations by forcing Jesus to discuss his spiritual problems. … Keep on posing problems, and you will escape the necessity of obedience.”
With more like 70 percent certainty than 100 percent, recently I forged ahead and took action in a matter I thought God was leading me to. This was after weeks of reflecting and dithering. Up until the very minute I committed the act I was not sure, but it seemed to be what the Bible commanded. It was only after the deed was done that I received both inner and outer confirmation of its rightness—and a mysterious strengthening of faith.
We like to think that only he who believes can obey. But I believe Bonhoeffer was profoundly right: “Only he who is obedient can believe.”
back to top35 Comments to ““Only those who obey …””
only those who obey are the righteous
it is by the fruit of obedience that we know them
it is not up to us to make the rules which are to be obeyed on our
own timetables
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it is not up to us to make the rules which are to be obeyed on our
own timetables
and thereby judge who is truly saved and who is not
FoolProofing Your Life is an excellent study of the Psalms and Proverbs, which teaches discernment in character
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There is the obedience that comes from faith and the obedience that comes from earning our way to heaven.
The second obedience comes with lots of loop-hole searching. The first leads us closer to God and ends up giving him glory instead of ourselves.
The second leads to self-righteousness and the first leads to accepting Christ’s righteousness.
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or is it that there is obedience to God and obedience to “the church”
which one is more likely to pressure us into “obeying” ?
We so often confuse orgainized religion with God himself, that it is downright confusing
I just read on another Christian website that the church tells us to store up our treasure in Heaven. I hardly see that in reality. I see the church/”organized performance of professional religion” getting us to focus here, on the church. It is GOD who said to store up our treasure in Heaven, Mtt. 6.
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We so often confuse orgainized religion with God himself, that it is downright DANGEROUS
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The best example of this is in the third Raiders of the Lost Ark movie, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade–where Indiana Jones takes the step of faith across the bottomless chasm. The stone that holda him up only appears once he is committed.
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It’s true. There have been several times in my life when I had to step out in obedience to what I thought the Lord was telling me to do. I agonized and asked for reassurance time and time again, but after a while, since I knew it was the right thing to do, I just had to obey. Once I did, then the Lord provided the peace and reassurance I had been asking for. One of those decisions resulted in me being in Africa.
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8-book vs. person
it is not up to any religious expert to speak for me. In any given situation, it may be doubt or it may be faith, but I don’t need someone else, who does not know me, to tell me about myself. This reliance on experts takes the place of real friendships, the friend that sticks closer than a brother, etc., and true religion, visiting those oppressed IN their distress, not sending them a link or a book that may or may not apply, but certainly will not take the place of the care, the listening ear, the helping to bear the burden of a real person.
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When a person is truly converted to Christ, even the cat & dog will know it
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It has been my experience that first comes the obedience/step out in faith, and then comes the confirmation.
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what is most intersting is IN every major religion
the good books say war/KILLING fro defense only no aggression.
but all the big money folks mix it up.
AND FEED IT TO THOSE WHO DONT KNOW TO DO THE DIRTY WORK.
LOOK HOW AMERICA HAS PUT AWAY old AMOS 5 TO LIVE MOVIE STAR LIVES.
some of the tv preachers were even saying excess possessions were proof of gods reward.
evil often comes veiled as good
the wolf as the sheep
the powerful as the righteous
the wealthy as the deserving
the quar’n has words against the terrorists too!
and the militants in isreal break from God.
Anyone who tells you the rules (religiosity) is more important than (spirituality) if and how you live and apply it.
well ,how can you trust in that theory of convenience ?
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i’d rather a good atheist than a bad christian any day!
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“Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible.”
Constantine-style church
not New Testament-style church
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“Doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience
I would say there is at least one thing more powerful than mere “doubt and reflection” that keep the believer from obediance to Christ.
1. Traditions of men – Jesus said these will “nulify the commands of God” and “you have many like this”. I have found many of the foundational elements of the institutional form of church to “nullify the commands of God”. So many believers see it as so normal, so righteous, etc. The commands of God have become nulified in their minds.
Here is one example: Heb. 10:24,25
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Believers spend billions of $ across this country to be sure they are not “giving up on the habit of meeting”. They use it to buy cathedrals to hold hundreds of people, lined up in pews to hear the word from a hired expert in one-way communication, not “one another” communication. The exact opposit of what God asked for. The passivity, legargy, perpetual dependency, and self-centeredness that this switch produces in 90% of believers is tragic indeed.
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15-
So they disobey the very command that their trumpet blowing announces!! Meeting together in body only.
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Macdoogle #12: bad choice
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So cut off your hand and poke out your eye. Don’t stop to think about it. Just obey. You wouldn’t want to fall into the trap of letting Christian scholarship suggest that these sayings of Jesus are mere hyperbole.
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OK. I just reread the piece and realize better what Andree is getting at. She isn’t saying we don’t think about it but that we aren’t always 100% sure.
I take back my post #17.
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Outdeep
Andree is challenging believers deep perpetual dependency on technical experts in the Bible on every point of their faith – including to the point of idolatry, because it is a substitute for believers direction relationship to Christ. Anything that substitutes for Christ is an idol. Believers are failing to be Bereans – to examine what they are told to see if it’s, true. Acts 17:11 It doesn’t matter how much the experts proclaim they are speaking for God, or how many degrees they have, or how many years they have served God, or how meek and humble they appear to be. You still have to examine it with the scriptures. Even the english translations, including the KJV, must be examined. All the translators translate with a bias that distorts God’s revelation. God can use it, but he has taught us to be Bereans. You don’t have to be a greek scholar with the tools availbable to everyone today.
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“To him who knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17
The Psalms and Proverbs are good resources, REG, but I base my faith on the New Testament, and those beliefs are confirmed by what I am taught in a corporate church gathering — where I learn about the entirety of Scriptures.
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Tima
This sort of debate is normally pursued by those who delight in turning the words of the Bible, believing themselves to be wise. If one takes that approach, then you can make the words mean whatever you like, pretending that you KNOW more about the Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Aramaic than those who translated the Word of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found to match up to what we already had, before they were already found.
We have the Word, it is up to us whether we want to accept it or reject it. There are over 5,500 manuscripts for the New Testament, they match up 99%. The small differences are spelling. When you realize how miraculous the Old Testament is, and the findings of the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls, one begins to understand the POWER of GOD to keep HIS Word pure. Nothing has changed, it is what HE wants it to be.
Can you imagine GOD Almighty sending HIS Son to die for our sins, and then letting the Scriptures go adrift. Then again, look at the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ how HE proves the power of HIS Hand on the Word. Now look at the OT prophecy and its coming to fruition in the New Testament regarding the birth and death of the LORD Jesus Christ. It all fits, there isn’t a piece out of place. That’s the miracle, that’s what HE gave us so that we might know the TRUTH.
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I wrote:
“The Dead Sea Scrolls were found to match up to what we already had, before they were already found.”
It should have read”
The Dead Sea Scrolls were found to match up to what we already had.
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In thinking about this (I wonder if Andree is surprised that people actually think about what she writes over a long period of time) I admit I have a bit of a struggle with this one.
I understand how I can deceive myself into not obeying with intellectual objections (isn’t this why the corrupt Jewish leadership in the gospels refused to acknowlege the merit Jesus?)
Nevertheless, having spent twelve years in an abusive church I also know how I gave myself with faith-filled abandon to things I thought God was leading my heart to do only to later discover that they were not from God. I should have had my mind turned on.
I am currently trying to sort out God’s leading in a money pledge for the next three years. Do I commit to a large building fund campaign at my church (which I don’t necessarily object to) or do I give my money to some local little-fry ministries that are more mom-and-pop but are certainly doing some clear work for the kingdom. Is God saying to me “this is the church, you must step out in faith and pledge for the next three years as much as you can and trust me” or “give to these struggling ministries that are often ignored”?
I wouldn’t mind if God would direct with a little more specific direction than just “go out and do it and then you will know if it was right”.
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“Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.” Romans 12:2
Outdeep, So we are back to being transformed in our minds, not conformed to the world or to a particular group or church. I think you are in a good struggle. It is the struggle that pushes us back to God himself. I hear you. Remember, nothing is lost that is done in faith. God knows your heart.
How he hates the shepherds who mislead and put heavy yokes on the people. He brings that out throughout the bible, from Genesis to Revelation. You see it in Ezekial and on through the epistles. he knows your struggle and it will not be in vain.
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I like Bonhoeffer’s advice “Doubt and reflection take the place of spontaneous obedience,” because these are what we would call simple “indicators.” If doubt and/or reflection appear in a matter of the real will, it’s an indicator that spontaneous obedience is the only recourse. It’s not unlike learning that “hot” demands a spontaneous action — don’t lean on the stove.
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TIMA – I agree that some Christians (maybe even many) do not read or study the Word for themselves, but please don’t broadbrush all Christians who don’t happen to worship the same way you do.
Our church has always stressed the importance of personal Bible study & reflection, as well as prayer & seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit.
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Victoria
You missed my point completely. I did not say a word about any inaccuracy in the original languages. I spoke about inaccuracies going from the original to English. That is called translation.
Outdeep
Praise God you turned on your mind to see the abuse masquerading as “godly leadership”. When our church put out the call for $8 million for a double sized gym (they already had a full sized gym), and the preacher preached on 2 Cor. 8 & 9 as the basis for “giving” for this; God turned the lights on. He rightly preached on the how and why of giving from this amazing passage on giving. What I realized is he completely left out the “where” of giving as taught here. The “where” of giving is the needs of others beyond you. If the $ don’t go beyond your “needs” and your kids, then it’s not giving. It’s pooling. The nature of giving is that it goes beyond you. Give to the local pregnancy center, home for abused women, rescue ministry, and even more important sending believers to reach those who have never heard.
What is powerful ministry? The more personal the contact – the more powerful the impact. “Small-fry” ministries are very personal contact focused. It has to be to reach the deep needs of our culture. Big building, crowd oriented gatherings are weak because they are mostly one-way communication and shallow, surface contact.
Karen o
It’s not what the church stresses. It’s what the people actually do that matters. Take a survey in your church and ask how many people are actively:
1. Examining the scriptures to test the pastor – that means going beyond the evidence he gives you. This is hard work but it’s what qualifies as a “noble” believer. Acts 17:11
2. How many believers have an active spiritual life Mon.- Sat. where they gather from God’s word and God’s work in their life and prepare to “spur” the saints on Sunday “on to greater love and good work”? Heb. 10:24,25.
If the results are more than 10%, I’ll stand corrected.
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Tima
This is what you wrote in post 19
This isn’t true, nor is your comment in post #27:
You make these statements but you don’t back them up. I am very familiar with translations Tima, I know what translation means. I also know when people are ‘throwing around’ accusations which are not true.
Without knowing anything about our churches you make broad statements WITHOUT FACTS as in your post #27. When I see this, without facts or knowledge of my church or others, I see red flags everywhere. I’ve watched people make accusations against churches because they want to lead, they want to destroy without proof, what Believers in these churches are doing and what they believe straight from the Word of God.
Unless you can identify who is the offending church, speak ONLY FOR YOUR CHURCH and yourself.
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Tima,
Thanks for your thoughts in #27. To be clear, I feel the church doing the building fund is doing it in a godly way and there is indeed need for more space if they want to grow their worship/preaching service and dynamic kids program.
Nevertheless, it supports a thinking in the church that I am not as comfortable with that puts the emphasis on “the big game” on Sunday morning and the important aspect of community and relationships are in-practice seen as optional add-ons. If a church were to suddenly have 30% attendance, there would be a panic. If we grew by 30% and needed more room on Sunday, there would be a no-hold-barred campaign to enlarge.
If only 30% of the church was involved in small groups or ministries we would merely shrug our shoulders and say “what a shame”. So churches can say all they want about “it’s not all about Sunday morning”. But, in practice in my experience, it is.
So I guess my decision is that I am not personally against the building fund but am currently investing in recovery and one-on-one ministers. I just can’t afford a building right now. Maybe others can.
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Tima – I haven’t done a survey, per se, but from comments people (at my church) have made at various times, & the number of people who share insights from the scriptures, I’d say that way more than 10% are doing what they should.
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Outdeep
I would encourage you to deepen your convictions so they are anchored in God’s word, not the state of your personal finances or something else. Read 2 Cor. 8 & 9 and notice the “where” of giving. Notice from John 3:16 the “where” of God’s giving: “For God so loved the world that He gave…” Our giving is to be like God’s giving – beyond ourselves and other rich believers who enjoy pooling money more than giving it. Once it is anchored in God’s Word it becomes sharable to others with true Holy Spirit conviction. God designed his truth to flow through you to the rest of the saints he has connected to you. Don’t keep it just to yourself. God has not designed His truth to be funneled through one hired expert, even though the system you are in leads people to think and act that way. (The point of this posting). I’m glad you feel you can make choices apart from the crowd around you.
Karen O
I’m glad you find it’s more than 10%. What do you think it would take to raise the maturity of the saints in your church such that 50% or 80% live out this kind of maturity? God wants us to aim high, not be content with mediocrity for ourselves and the saints we are connected to. I would encourage you or better yet your husband to ask permission to do a thoughtful survey of the saints. Then the saints can take aim at some very specific needs and persue after dligent faith rather than casual faith.
Victoria
I’ve given you proof on this very issue on previous articles and it doesn’t sink in. From my perception of the quality of your arguments, you prefer to argue when you don’t like something rather than reason thoughtfully and learn in two-way communication.
Oh, well I’ll try again:
baptizmo is the greek word for baptize. Baptize is not a translation. It is a transliteration. The translators, for whatever shallow reason, prefer not to give it it’s natural, contextual translation. Denominations all differ on what they prefer it to mean so they like it this way. Now their local expert can interpret it in his own way to please his own traditions. The body of Christ is splintered because of this and other reasons. This shows how the church is left in limbo when it is deeply dependent upon a few experts for the development of their faith as this post suggests.
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Tima
YOU WRITE:… “I’ve given you proof on this very issue on previous articles and it doesn’t sink in. From my perception of the quality of your arguments, you prefer to argue when you don’t like something rather than reason thoughtfully and learn in two-way communication.”
No you haven’t given PROOF – without proof my dear you haven’t made any point but rather play with words – You haven’t said much at all, except that in post #19 … “All the translators translate with a bias that distorts God’s revelation.” —- which you haven’t been able to prove.
You obviously don’t understand post #21 – OR you prefer to ignore it because you can’t understand it or cope with the significance of GOD’s power, HIS ability to keep the Scriptures throughout the centuries from going adrift —- that has been a problem for many people, they want to re-write the Bible claiming it wasn’t translated properly – that Tima is an old ‘game’ played by the cults. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons alike have complained regarding the translation of the Bible.
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Spontaneous obedience sounds like something that could turn into zeal without knowledge if you’re not careful.
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Victoria
You prooved my point. You are unwilling to accept proof. You can only ignore it and throw out meaning less cliches “…play with words” or ” you haven’t said much at all”. I understood #21 completely and that it has nothing to do with my point on translation bias. You must be completely unaware of many new translations that are sending God’s Word adrift. God’s power is designed for us to be His partners in inteligent and diligent gurarding of the truth, not protecting erroneous traditions of the past or cultural shift in the present.
I will not join you in your degrading playing with words such as “my dear” or suggesting I am playing the same games as Mormons or JW’s. God has designed you for better than this.
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Tima – 34
There are many ‘new translations’ that doesn’t mean they are correct. ANYONE can publish a new translation of the Bible.
Partners? – I’m not a partner with GOD Almighty, I am His servant, HE and HE alone is the one who makes the rules. God is Almighty, all powerful, all knowing, we are HIS servants, we are to follow HIM-
The Bible has been around for a long, long time, it hasn’t changed, but man has most certainly tried to change the Bible, taking entire passages away, etc.
The Holy Spirit guides me Tima, what I do in regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ comes from HIS leading, that is all I am able to give. If that doesn’t set well with you as you quip ” God has designed you for better than this.” then you have missed what I have earnestly tried to impart in my posts.
The Scripture which we have today was not, a conspiracy which the Apostles, deemed necessary to write – Nor were those who translated the documents so long ago in any way conspiring to delude the world as to the LORD’S virgin birth, ministry, death on the cross, and the triumphant Resurrection from the grave – However, the CONSPIRACY takes shape when those down through the ages, and more importantly in the past 200 years up to TODAY, weave what they consider to be a very cleaver way in which to attack the Bible, either by supposed knowledge or twisting passages of Scripture to meet their ‘agenda’ or ‘cult’ –
Those who wish to weave some sort of conspiracy as to the accuracy and reliability of Scripture, accusing Christ’s disciples who were chosen by Him for the preaching of the Gospel into a jigsaw puzzle, . . . . . . and also those disciples who sat under the Apostles to learn ‘first hand’ about the Savior, OR the accusations are hurled at the translators who worked with the original manuscripts –
Those individuals who believe THEY ALONE are capable of reassembling, due to error or negligence, or down right untruthfulness are nothing more than antichrist – The LORD warned us there would be those who would come with ‘false gospel’ and they have been with us forever -
Hebrew and Greek are ancient languages as are Aramaic and Latin – many pretend to have knowledge of these languages, be they in the ‘old form’ or the ‘new’ then becoming the so called ‘teacher’ of any and all who will listen, as though they are now ‘equipped’ with superior knowledge to translate the Scriptures –
The CONSPIRACY against GOD’S Word has not worked, those who are steadfast in their belief of the LORD Jesus Christ, and His DEITY are unmoved, those who would try to ‘delude’ the saints are the very ones who have fallen under their own delusion –
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