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Centers of the battle
We know why God loves cities. We also know why God hated Sodom.
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It’s Saturday!
Today’s quote is from an American writer: “Some choices we live not only once but a thousand times over, remembering them for the rest of our lives.”
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back to top225 Comments to “Whirled Views 9.20”
Today’s paper has a listing of the top ten movies of all time, inflation adjusted. I haven’t seen four of them.
5. The Ten Commandments
6. Titanic
7. Jaws
8. The Exorcist
I have seen
1. GWTW
2. Star Wars
3. The Sound of Music (In the theatre and several times on tape. Mary used to watch it every time she visited us.)
4. ET
8. Dr. Zivago (On TV)
10 Snow White
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Chas I looked through the list and didn’t think much of it then realized I have seen all but the Exorcist.
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I have seen them all, but there are some that I was not crazy about. I saw the Sound of Music twice in the theater. The first time I really enjoyed it and the second not much. The second time was with a date who was there under duress. He put up with it for me and it was evident. It took all the enjoyment out of it. I’ve seen it numerous times on tv, when my girls watched it over and over. I know all those songs. Too bad I don’t have a great voice!
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Wow, Chas! You’ve never seen *The Ten Commandments?* Well, you must remedy that soon. There are errors in it, but it is a great movie.
Otherwise, my list looks like yours, although while I saw Dr. Zhivago on tv, I don’t remember a *thing* about it. (I was at an all girl slumber party as a teenager and was TOTALLY uninterested in the movie.)
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I very much doubt there are absolute universal moral laws in the universe. Many people at worldmagblog find this idea disturbing. If there are no absolute universal moral laws,they wonder, what keeps you from indulging any base impulse you have? Why not murder me? Why not rape me? Why not steal from me? Why not walk on the grass?
I don’t murder because 1) the only weapon I own is a pellet rifle that only fires one pellet at a time and as I am a bad shot, I would have to fire it and reload it 1000 times to kill you, and in the meantime you would take it away from me and beat me to death with it in self-defense. And 2) I am incompetent at crime, and in the unlikely event I did murder you, I would be caught in Short Order, a small town just across the Idaho border and sentenced to read my own comments until I died of boredom. And 3) I suffer slightly from empathy, a bad disease, and I am reluctant to kill you because I wouldn’t like to be killed.
I don’t rape because that is not what “gets me off,” to use a crude term. I don’t steal because I have often said, “I won’t steal anything smaller than a million dollars, because it’s not worth the trouble and the risk of getting caught in Short Order, ID” and as I am not an investment banker on Wall Street, nobody has left a million dollars lying around where I can grab it.
My wife and I hate grass, and we swore off having lawns when we moved to our five acres of woods on an island. A little grass grows wild in the clearing by our house and we walk on it and stamp on it and dig it up as fast as we can.
I will make an analogy from an atheist point of view. Many of us find the idea of sending a bad person to Hell disturbing. Yes, even Josef Stalin, and Adolph Hitler, and Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot, and Ted Bundy, as bad as they clearly were, don’t deserve to fry in Hell forever. For that matter, even me, where I deserve to go for murdering, raping, stealing, and walking on the grass. You tell me God created Hell because He loves me, even though I am tainted with the sin of Adam and Eve, and I can be Saved by believing in Christ, his Son, who sacrificed Himself to save me.
Just as you are disturbed by the idea of a idea of a universe with no absolute universal moral laws, I am disturbed by the idea of a universe where people burn in Hell forever. In the meantime, we are stuck with each other, and we (believers and atheists) bicker endlessly, trying to prove Sarte’s insight that “Hell is other people,” right here in River City, also known as worldmagblog.
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For writing such a bad and tendentious message, I am being sentenced to a day working in the chain gang. Last Saturday, our kindly Christian neighbor, who used to work for the Boy Scouts, taught me how to cut down trees without killing myself. Last Sunday, when the kindly Christian neighbors were at church, my wife watched me cut down trees all by myself so she could warn me if I started to try and kill myself by making stupid moves with the chain saw, or call 911 if I dropped a tree on myself. Although my tree felling was inexpert–one tree kept standing, leaning on another tree—until I finally pushed it down, I eventually cut down several trees that rudely lived where we didn’t want them to live, inconsiderately shading our garden. I then bucked them, proving I can talk like a logger (if not chop like one), leaving many small logs lying around behind the garden.
Today, while she serves coffee and tea and hot chocolate, and scones and cookies and biscotti she baked herself, at the organic farmers market, I will move all the chopped wood up to the house so like ants rather than grasshoppers we can burn them (after they age a year) in our fireplace to stay warm after the power goes out, as it does every winter when trees fall down on the power lines all by themselves, with just the aid of the wind, not even needing a chain saw.
This message is not as funny as drill’s messages, and far less RC (righteously correct).
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Rn, I laughed through most of your long post. Thanks!
But one question. If rape, as you put it, got somebody off, would that be all right then?
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“Marx himself,…envisaged two broad lines of action that could be adopted to destroy the bourgeoisie; one was violent revolution; the other, a slow increase of state power, through extended social services, taxation, and regulation, to a point where a smooth transition could be effected from an individualist to a collective society.”
William F. Buckley, Jr
God & Man at Yale
p. 46
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Friends,
Check out my latest post at American Creation on natural theology. This concept is not too well understood, but it is key to American Founding thought. Natural theology is not inherently “deistic” but inherently “generic,” that is something that could unite Deists, Unitarians, and Christians. As I write:
It would be a mistake, however, to try to exclude the Biblical God from this conception. Rather, a prime reason why America’s Founders turned to “nature” and not “scripture” to ground America’s public creed was to be inclusive. Natural theology was a lingua franca (a link language) in which orthodox trinitarians, unitarians, theistic rationalists and deists all could speak.
For a good place to learn how the Founding era viewed the concept of “natural religion” (that is what man can discern about God’s universe through reason unassisted by scripture), google the terms “natural religion” and “Dudleian Lectures.” As will be seen, some orthodox trinitarian Christians did promote the concept of “natural religion,” for instance Samuel Langdon, John Witherspoon, and many others. But when they indulged in this theology, note, they stayed true to its method, which was, again, what man discovers from reason unassisted by revelation. When orthodox Christians indulged in natural theology, they found reason and revelation perfectly agreed. Deists, on the other hand, found that natural theology didn’t at all agree with what is revealed in scripture. And theistic rationalist/unitarians found that sometimes reason and revelation agreed, sometimes they didn’t.
But in the end, natural theology is defined as what man discovers from reason, and when it came time to declare independence, America turned to the laws of nature and nature’s God, not what is revealed in scripture.
http://tinyurl.com/4mp2gc
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ok……….so here at World on the Web, we’ve seen such driven support for B. Hussein Obama’s presidential nod. Fine. I just wanted the liberals here to know exactly what they are supporting:
“Obama’s despicable betrayal of our troops,” by Melanie Morgan at WorldNet Daily
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Adios, thank you for laughing at my post.
In terms of rape, I think the person being raped does not “get off” on it, so they should not be compelled to engage.
However, I will shock you, perhaps, by revealing that some couples (not many, I suspect, but a few) enhance their sexual pleasure by “role-playing” rape games. As long as they are both consulting adults, that is not wrong, as long as the games do not “get out of hand.” (In fact, my imagination is taking me places I don’t even want to go.)
In fact, I suspect such “games” are probably dangerous, and may be “gateways” to more dangerous drugs.
I will stop here before I shock you more.
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Thank you for the information Theo.
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As a follow up my question to the evangelicals (or whomever) on this site: Orthodox Christians in the Founding era, after Aquinas, saw nothing wrong with indulging in natural theology. Yet, Francis Schaeffer has likened it to playing with fire. So who is right? The orthodox Christians of the American Founding like Langdon and Witherspoon, or Francis Schaeffer?
Here is what I’m talking about with Shchaeffer. I don’t think he realized that he was rejecting something central to the American Founding. Not that that should matter to a Christian.
http://tinyurl.com/4e7c39
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My message by itself is not as long as Theophilus’ message, though collectively all my messages are probably longer.
I am disturbed by people who use “stabbed in the back” accusations about their political opponents. I suspect this is a trial run of an argument we will frequently over the next four years if the Republicans don’t win.
It might be true that we will be stabbed in the back. It might also be an argument for justifying the failure of a ill-conceived and poorly executed war.
Wars on abstractions and general evils, such as the “War on Drugs” and the “War on Terror” strike me as poorly conceived justifications for actual, concrete military actions.
Next, some religious group will tell us that they are embarked on a “War on Evil.” This should keep us all busy for the next millenium or two.
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Theophilus: It is OK to supply links to articles on other sites within WorldMagBlog comments, but please do not post entire, copyrighted works like you did in comment No. 10. I have edited your comment because of that.
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My all-time favorite movies don’t appear on the list Chas gave; one was “To Kill a Mockingbird.” I also liked “Friendly Persuasion,” the Quakers were my home denomination for many years when I was younger … Granted, neither one was probably the epitome of sophisticated filmmaking, but they are movies that still touch me very much when I see them on TV (and I’m not one for seeing movies more than once typically).
But as for the list (and I LOVE it that Chas still reads his local newspaper, have I said that before?), the Exorcist & Jaws were the big blockbusters when I was in college.
For some reason, I never did “get” Dr. Zivago, which came out when I was in high school. So many of my friends loved the film and I’ve tried to watch it since on television, but no go. I just see a whole lot of snow, fur hats and a slow, slow, slow-moving plot. But the flaw is in me, I’m sure it’s an excellent film.
Ah, The Sound of Music — I remember our Girl Scout troop went to see that in some big, ornate theater in L.A. when it came out. The music from the show later became among the main selections for our high school chorus.
Oh, and the Buckley quote in #8. Wow. Does that 2nd option sound familiar or what? I checked that book out of our local library when I was maybe 15 years old, but found it a bit hard to get through at the time. But I loved Buckley and miss his wit and astute observations on politics in these sorry days.
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Don’t worry, Theophilus. I will post all of the text of the article on Roger Williams from the New Republic I have been talking about, so not only will my message be even longer than yours, but I will also be culpable of copywrong violation.
Radical Agnostics for caring as well as for not suffering enough.
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Donna, evidently you do remember when movie theaters were big, ornate and going to a movie was an event.
The list only considered money from tickets sold as adjusted by inflation. Other movies have pulled in more in current dollars.
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Great quote about our choices. I thoroughly hated having to learn flowcharting in computer school, but it does beautifully illustrate how our life choices govern the paths / loops in our lives. I wonder how many of us would tear up the chart and start over with new choices if we could? But if we could do that, how many other people’s flowcharts would also have to be re-written? Life is precious, even with all of its run-time errors and reboots. They just remind us we need to “get with the program” because this earthly life is not an infinite loop. Thank God!
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It is a matter of history that when Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.
He did this because he said in words to this effect:
‘Get it all on record now – get the films – get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened’
This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it’offended’ the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.
It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended, and already people are denying the memory of the 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians and 1,900 Catholic priests who died during the Holocaust. In fact, some on this very blog are denying that Islamofascist terrorists attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.
Sad.
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What a week it’s been in politics! The Sarah Palin “glow” started wearing off (the interviews didn’t help), the McCain/Palin “bounce” from the convention is almost over, Obama started fighting back, and Obama got an opening on the economy. All in all, I think the Democrats won the week. But there’s still a long ways to go and a lot yet to happen. Next Friday is the first debate. It will be a big milestone in the campaign. I can hardly wait.
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Theophilus: Fine. I just wanted the liberals here to know exactly what they are supporting:
A breathless screed by a right wing ideologue who is unquestioningly taking the word of an Iraqi official (if that’s even being reported accurately) and presenting grotesquely distorted versions of Obama’s views does nothing to tell us “exactly what [we] are supporting.”
Neither does your emphasizing of his middle name.
By the way … look up the name “David Safavian” sometime. He was a highly-positioned Bush administration official (he ran the Office of Federal Procurement Policy for a time, and had been at the General Services Administration before that). He got caught up in the Abramoff scandal, but that’s neither here nor there … his middle name is Hossein.
So what? You ask. And I reply: Exactly.
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“I’m not running for president because I think I’m blessed with such personal greatness that history has anointed me to save our country in its hour of need. My country saved me… and I cannot forget it. And I will fight for her for as long as I draw breath, so help me God. I’m going to fight for my cause every day as your president. I’m going to fight to make sure every American has every reason to thank God, as I thank Him: that I’m an American, a proud citizen of the greatest country on earth, and with hard work, strong faith and a little courage, great things are always within our reach. Fight with me. Fight for what’s right for our country. Fight for the ideals and character of a free people. Fight for our children’s future. Fight for justice and opportunity for all. Stand up to defend our country from its enemies. Stand up for each other, for beautiful, blessed, bountiful America. Stand up and fight. We’re Americans, and we never give up. We never quit. We never hide from history. We make history. Thank you, and God bless you, and God bless America.”
—John McCain
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Chas #18 (can you still see us through your flickering monitor??):
We have a theater in our community, built in the 1930s by Warner Bros, that fell into disrepair until the city of LA purchased it some years ago. A private group was then formed to help raise money for restoration and, slowly, it’s coming back to its majestic origins — a gold-leaf, sunburst ceiling, intricate murals — an incredible “space” compared to our cubby-hole theaters of today.
We still have folks in town who remember lining up at the theater as kids for the Saturday matinees. One of the fund-raisers that worked well was letting people “adopt” seats (which helped pay for the new, much more comfortable ones), so many who had their first dates “in the balcony” forked over $$ as a way to help pay for the restoration. There’s still work to do, but it’s a great landmark and a reminder of when theaters were really theaters.
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Outkast how awful. I have had the great priviledge of talking to a man who was on the Bataan Death March and showed me his toes. My next door neighbor was given his field command by General Eisenhower. His brother actually went into the camps to liberate them. I was able to personally talk to all three of these men. It happened and to deny it, is to cause it to happen again. Maybe not to the Jew, maybe next time to you and me. Us. Christians.
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Outkast at #20: This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it’offended’ the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.
It comes as no surprise anymore to find that you, as usual, are wrong.
UK Holocaust Curriculum Removal E-Mails are False
Maybe you should try being a little less gullible.
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Kim: It’s not true. Outkast fell for an Internet rumor. See #26.
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Like Chas, I have seen six of those ten movies, the same ones except that I have seen The Ten Commandments and I haven’t seen Dr. Zhivago. (I did read the book, and I have a tape with the movie theme music.)
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Actually, Kim, my parents have friends in the UK who confirmed this sad fact.
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Actually Outkast, your claimed confirmation, for which we have only your word, does not trump the chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust in the UK, who wrote the article I linked to.
It’s not true. It may be that your friends believed the same rumors you did, but it is not true.
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Whether it is true or not…
In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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My mother wrote: Don’t want to bog you down with lots of forwards, but I thought you would find this material heart rending as I did. The U.K. has just given certain sections of their country over to Muslim law. Not sure what that means, but we have heard from British friends that they are taking over the U.K. Sad, and we are not far behind to fall. We have no fear of the future, for we have the wonderful assurance that God is in control!
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Since you can’t be bothered to seek out facts, here’s the end of that article:
. This does not refer to Holocaust education on the National Curriculum – it is a post-14 History GCSE course (publicly examined course) . History at GCSE is not compulsory (only a 1/3 of pupils opt for history post-14). This is an anecdotal response from one teacher in one school out of 4500 secondary schools in the UK. While we cannot say what happens in every single school, our understanding is that this is highly unusual and not general practise of teachers around the country. . All schools can choose which history topics they wish to study for coursework at GCSE level. . There is no suggestion that this or any other school is failing to cover the National Curriculum in teaching about the Holocaust at Key Stage 3, Year 9 (age 13 – 14).
At no point does the report from the Historical Association suggest that the Holocaust be removed from the National Curriculum for England and Wales.
Obviously we and all Holocaust related organisations in the UK take this very seriously, however on this occasion we want to allay all fears and impress upon everyone that the Holocaust is not being removed from the National Curriculum. This particular incident does of course merit further investigation but in no way represents all the good work in our schools across the country.
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Hilarious! Obama has added a teleprompter to his entourage — even for outdoor venues!
Sure, all politicians frequently operate from prepared texts and often repeat the same speech over and over again on the campaign trail, but imagine seeing a teleprompter at a casual political rally. Supporters in Pueblo, Colorado, saw what should now be dubbed the “Obamaprompter” in action in the middle of an outdoor rodeo ring. Such foolishness may prevent the Great Orator from making stupid “lipstick-on-a-pig” statements, but it will only reinforce the fact that he cannot think on his feet and is helpless without a prepared text.
The upcoming debate next Friday should be interesting.
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it will only reinforce the fact that he cannot think on his feet and is helpless without a prepared text.
Anyone who supported George W. Bush has no place to raise any objection to Obama on this point.
Not that will stop you folks .. consistency is irrelevant, I know.
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#35 SteveG
Actually, GWB gave and gives good speeches off the cuff. I don’t remember him ever giving answers as bad as The One does.
But then, I don’t go looking for bad things from either one. Bad things just happen.
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Ah so with no discussion thread specficially on this point: it appears that the bailout effort is going to cost at least $700B:
$700B bailout request
We also are now effectively the proud owners of AIG:
U.S. acquiring right to 79.9% of AIG
My continuing comments on the size of the U.S. intervention efforts have been, I suggest, underestimating the size of the Federal government commitment.
Some observations:
1) given the behavior of the markets after failing to bailout Lehman Bros and considering the potential domino impact on the world’s economy, there appears to have little alternative
2) the Federal government interventions have, at least through Thrusday, appeared to have been tactical in nature: it would seem that a comprehensive approach is required
3) it is not yet clear whether the Thursday proposal by Paulson is in fact comprehensive: in particular the mechanics of gaining full control of any given mortgage appears cl0udy
4) McCain appaear to continue to oppose this Federal bailout effort:
McCAin opposition to Federal Reserve efforts
We appear to be in the midst of the greatest economic crisis since 1929:
Worst week since 1929
“It was the end of the worst week for financial markets since 1929, and Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. looked sleep-deprived. ”
I suggest that if anything, the present government efforts are still too tepid and tactical. My sense is that barring an aggressive strategic approach addressing the entire underpinning of the financial crisis we will continue to experience sequence of shoe dropping for quite some time.
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I don’t remember him ever giving answers as bad as The One does.
Oh man, I’m going to be laughing about that one all day!
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I just posted another goodie at American Creation on the Pledge of Allegiance that cites a classic post by Joe Carter, formerly of WMB. This issue is relevant because Newdow didn’t go away. Because SCOTUS punted on the substantive issue, Newdow simply found folks with proper standing and the case is back at the 9th Circuit and will almost certainly go back to SCOTUS. Carter is telling evangelicals in not so many words, whatever the merits of Newdow’s legal claim (he’s probably in the wrong) this isn’t your (evangelicals’) fight. And that’s because the God in the Pledge is not the biblical God but the God of the American Civil Religion. Here is what Joe Carter wrote:
America has done a fine job of incorporating Rousseau’s “dogmas of civil religion”, keeping them “few, simple, and exactly worded.” We have restricted such sentiments to the most unobtrusive areas, allowing “In God We Trust’ to be printed on our coins and the phrase “under God” to slip in our Pledge of Allegiance (which, curiously, isn’t a pledge of “allegiance” to God but to a flag). We allow recognition for a “Divinity, possessed of foresight and providence” but what we don’t allow is the recognition of the Christian God. And that is what should give Christians pause.
There is a vast and unbridgeable chasm between America’s civil religion and Christianity. If we claim that “under God” refers only to the Christian conception of God we are either being unduly intolerant or, more likely, simply kidding ourselves. Do we truly think that the Hindu, Wiccan, or Buddhist is claiming to be under the same deity as we are? We can’t claim, as Paul did on Mars Hill, that the “unknown god” they are worshiping is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Pledge is, after all, a secular document and the “under god” is referring to the Divinity of our country’s civil religion. Just as the pagan religion of the Roman Empire was able to incorporate other gods and give them familiar names, the civil religion provides an umbrella for all beliefs to submit under one nondescript, fill-in-the-blank term.
http://tinyurl.com/43mtup
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In the book of Radical Agnosticism, which I am still digging up near to where I buried it near where Joseph Smith dug up the book of Moomintroll it is written:
We do not know how the universe began or even if actually ended five minutes ago and the dark from the lights going out hasn’t reached us yet.
We do not know if the Bible is literally true or truly literary.
We do not know if humans evolved or devolved or revolved.
The words “proof” and “proved” when pinned on messy bulletin boards and dropped in bloggy blogs have little or no meaning.
But nowhere in the Great Book of Agnosticism is there anything written about the dis-United Kingdom school curriculum.
So it may be possible to determine once and for all (which means good for two months) what the current status of Holocaust education is in the UK curriculum and come to general agreement with only 400 or 500 flames exchanged in the meantime by say October 1 and have general agreement by Saturday, October 4.
In between my history of genocide messages which I post from time to time, I will pester everyone of their obligation to resolve this matter of fact and report back to my on October 4.
If you don’t, the consequences will be dire. I may either a) Post thousands of boring messages on wmb in one day, each longer and more tedious than the one before. You know I am capable of it.
Or, I may perform an abortion live that day, and post a video on this site. You don’t know what I am capable of if you push me. Be afraid, be very, very, very, afraid of the wrath of RA.
Reference: 20, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33.
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Random, I noticed you said some kind words about me on yesterday’s thread. I’ve been kind of busy. Just wanted to say thanks.
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Kim – Remember a couple weeks ago we were talking about green peanuts and boiled peanuts and salt potatoes? I didn’t find any peanuts at the farmers market last week, but I’ll keep looking. But my sister, who lives in MA told me she saw salt potatoes in BJ’s. Don’t know if you’re a member or not, but that’s where you can find them.
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$500 billion bailout
Debt takeover would be biggest intervention since depression
Seattle P-I NEWS SERVICES
WASHINGTON — Struggling to stave off financial catastrophe, the Bush administration on Friday laid out a radical bailout plan with a jaw-dropping price tag — a takeover of a half-trillion dollars or more in worthless mortgages and other bad debt held by tottering institutions.
Relieved investors sent stocks soaring on Wall Street and around the globe. The Dow Jones industrial average rose 368 points after surging 410 points the day before on rumors the federal action was afoot.
A grim-faced President Bush acknowledged risks to taxpayers in what would be the most sweeping government intervention to rescue failing financial institutions since the Great Depression. But he declared, “The risk of not acting would be far higher.”
Why do I have a feeling similar to the one I had one morning when I read online about a plane hitting the World Trade Tower?
I’m getting too old for this kind of stuff.
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Everybody who has a bumper sticker on their vehicle proclaiming We’re Spending our Children’s Inheritance has to sticker it over with its replacement: We spent our Children’s Inheritance. Lipsticked piggy bank’s done broke and emptied.
Random Granddaughter, you get our five acres in the woods and 27 years left on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. Good luck with it, kid. And some freshly cut wood for the wood stove for year after next which I am heading out now to move up by the house to dry and season. As the verse says, there’s a season for everything. Turn, turn, turn.
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You’re welcome, Klasko. Politeness and appreciation are meta-values that religious people and atheists can share much of the time. You’ve said kind words about me at times. Pass it on.
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post 10
Theo, What’s despicable is repeating lies. What’s especially despicable is impugning the Obama’s patriotism with yet more far right bearing of false witness. From ABC’s Jake Tapper:
“The Post story is “absolutely not true,” Hagel spokesman Mike Buttry told ABC News.
“Barack Obama has never urged a delay in negotiations,” said Obama campaign national security spokesperson Wendy Morigi, “nor has he urged a delay in immediately beginning a responsible drawdown of our combat brigades.”
Buttry said that Hagel agrees with Obama’s account of the meeting: Obama began the meeting with al-Maliki by asserting that the United States speaks with one foreign policy voice, and that voice belongs to the Bush administration.
A Bush administration official with knowledge of the meeting says that, during the meeting, Obama stressed to al-Maliki that he would not interfere with President Bush’s negotiations concerning the U.S. troop presence in Iraq, and that he supports the Bush administration’s position on the need to negotiate, as soon as possible, the Status of Forces Agreement, which deals with, among other matters, U.S. troops having immunity from local prosecution.”
RANDOM – staggering isn’t it. A full national takeover from a party with an alleged political philosophy that denigrates socialism.
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randpom name post 43,
actually it is closer to $700B than $500B, and the bail out has not even begun.
This will make the Savings anbd Loan situation seem like a kindergarten playground episode.
Effectively the Bush admihnistration has nationalized our financial system completely (since so much of the liquidity had been tied up in now unsalable mortgage securities and the Fed seems to be the only place where these can now be liquidated: and he who holds the gold calls the tune).
The only question to my mind remaining is:
- will this be a pure bailout with no Federal control or will this bailout include the necessary regulation to protect to the eextent possible the U.S. taxpayer?
And in large measure this will be determined by whoever takes the whitehouse after the November election.
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Thank you for the additional information and clarification, musing.
Randpom
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Random Name 44, ditto those thoughts.
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Theophilus-
There is a reason active duty military donate 6 to 1 to Obama, and veterans groups support him too. They know he supports them in words and actions.
WorldNet Daily is definitely an entertaining website, but not a real news outlet.
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Outkast- 20
Why on earth are you spreading lies? You should at least reference the source of your copied and pasted lies!
http://www.jihadchat.com/index.php?showtopic=9811
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Now it is worth noting that no one appears to know the true cost oif the proposed bailout: $700B is an estimate.
And since the mortgage backed securities are difficult to evaluate, they apear to effectviely be unsalab le at the moment.
This suggests that all we can do is establish the maximum plausible liability and hope there are no additional hidden dominos.
It appears tha the following are reaosnable numbers:
1) Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae accounted for perhaPS $5.1T of mkortgages and moirtgage backed securities
2) this was perhaps 50% of the mortgages in the U.S.
3) AIG had liabilities of perhaps $1T
Working these starting numbers suggests that the maximum plausible liabilities form the presently completed and proposed bailout efforts are now of the order of $11T.
If the goivernment is not careful, I would suspect that the financial industry will try to lump in additional liabilities into this pool if they get the chance.
If the Federal government can reestablish stability in the markets, much of this may be recoverable eventually.
If the Federal government can not quickly reestablish stability in the markets, this will all be at risk.
And to get some scale on the size of this exposure, one should note that this is nearly 4X the entire proposed 2009 Federal budget (about $3T) and is close to the entire 2007 U.S. GDP (about $14T).
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Outkast 20-
You should at least credit the author of your copy and paste LIES in post #20.
Of course since you’re just copying and pasting McCain campaign chain emails, you probably don’t know who the author is. You really make your side look desperate, man!
FactCheck: Did the U.K. suspend its Holocaust curriculum because it offended Muslim students?
No, neither the United Kingdom nor the University of Kentucky has suspended teaching the Holocaust.
This particular bit of bunk (along with an even more ridiculous version that turns the U.K. into the University of Kentucky) has been in circulation for several months now. A simple Google search reveals the falsity of the rumor, yet the e-mail continues to be passed along by the overly credulous.
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Now we know how Kim and Outkast can be such ardent McCain supporters
Facts don’t matter so long as they get chain emails!
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Lumpy you owe me an apology. Go back and read my posts. I took Outkast at face value, posted that I knew for a fact the Holocaust did happen. SteveG posted a link I followed, got the information. Steve and Outkast were “bantering” back and forth so I post the poem with the wording “whether it is true or not…” I delete most chain emails although I have been living the high life down here in South Alabama on my UK Lottery winnings. I seem to be a winner about every other week.
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I apologize Kim.
Really. You are a lot smarter than Outkast.
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Outkast-
I have an amazing opportunity for you, my friend! This was just delivered to my in-box and I am passing it on to you. Don’t delay. My friend Emory needs help and will make it worth your while
Dear Friend,
I am Mr.Emory Barr, Accounts Manager, of Abbey National PLC
Bromley Rd Branch. I have an important business proposition for you.
On December 12th, 2001, a German contractor with the British Pertroleum co-orporation, United Kingdom ,Mr. Olaf Partetzke made a numbered time (Fixed) Deposit for twelve calendar months, valued at US$ 17,350,000.00 (Seventeen Million Three Hundred Hundred and fifty Thousand Dollars only) in my branch.
Upon maturity,I sent a routine notification to his forwarding address but got no reply. After a month, we sent a reminder and finally we discovered from his contract employers, the British Pertroleum co-orporation that Mr.Olaf Partetzke died from an Automobile accident further investigation,
I found out that he died without making a WILL,and all attempts to trace his next of kin was fruitless.
I therefore made further investigation and discovered that Mr. Olaf Partetzke did not declare any kin or relations in
all his official documents, including his Bank Deposit paperwork in my Bank. This sum of US$ 17,350,000.00 is still sitting in my Bank and the interest is being rolled over with the principal sum at the end of each year. No one will ever come forward to claim it. According to inheritance Laws of the United Kingdom, at the expiration of 5 (five) years, the money will revert to the ownership of the Local Government Authorities here in Wales, United Kingdom, if nobody applies to claim the fund.
Consequently, my proposal is that I will like you to stand in as the next of kin to Mr. Olaf Partetzke
so that the fruits of this old man’s labor will not get into the hands of some corrupt government officials.This is simple, I will like you to provide immediately your full names and address so that the attorney will prepare the necessary documents and affidavits that will put you in place as the next of kin. We shall employ the services of an attorney for drafting and notarization of the WILL and to obtain the necessary documents and letter of probate/administration in your favor for the transfer. The money will be paid into your account for us to share in the ratio of 60% for me and 35% for you and 5% for Expenses Incurred in the course of the transaction .
There is no risk at all as all the paperwork for this transaction will be done by the attorney and with my position as the Manager with my bank will guarantees the successful execution of this transaction. If you are interested, please reply immediately to my private email
box : emory400@xasamail.com
Upon your response, I shall then provide you with more details and relevant documents that will help you understand the transaction. You should observe utmost confidentiality, and rest assured that this transaction would be most profitable for both of us because I shall require your assistance to invest my share in your country.
Awaiting your urgent reply.
Thanks and regards.
Emory Barr
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Apology accepted. One of my favorite quotes is…”those who do not know their history, are doomed to repeat it.” I am supporting McCain/Palin after much thought. I was excited about Obama back in January/February and posted that several times on this blog. My intention is to vote for McCain/Palin and part of the reason is that Dems talk about doing this or that, but I have actually witnessed Reps putting minorities and women in positions of power. It might be pandering to the female vote, but part of the reason I am voting Rep is that a woman is on the ticket. I may end up regretting it, but I may not.
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It is interesting to watch the recriminations regarding the present financial issues.
I suggest that recriminations are not particularly useful, since what is done is done, HOWEVER it is useful to understand the process which led us to this situation so that corrective actions can be targeted effectively.
Peter Leavitt pointed out that the beginning of this situation arguably started with lack of regulation during the 2000 – 2003 period which allowed the development of these relatively unregulated martgage backed securities.
If these instruments had been isolated and allowed to go up or down on their own merits, perhaps all would be fine.
However, these instruments were comingled with regulated instruments. Further, regulated and unregulated entities became highly interdependent.
The effect was that failure of these instruments risked failure of the entire system.
One possible conclusion to draw from these observations is that it is probably necessary to regulate all financial markets since it becomes clear it is nearly impossible to effectively segregate them.
If one accepts this tentative conclusion, then it would seem worthy to consider the two candidates and their stated approaches to regulation of the financial industry. My sense is that their statements in the last short period of time are sufficient to draw reasonable conclusions of how each candidate would respond if elected president.
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Kim-
You won’t regret it. Palin and McCain are fading fast nationally. You will get to place your vote and no harm will come as a result. If I recall, you also live in a notoriously red state in the south?
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Kim post 57,
so I found you comment interesting. Based on your comment I looked into the women members of the senate:
Name State From To Party
Barbara Mikulski
Maryland
1987 Present Democratic
Dianne Feinstein
California
1992 Present Democratic
Barbara Boxer
California
1993 Present Democratic
Patty Murray
Washington
1993 Present Democratic
Kay Bailey Hutchison
Texas
1993 Present Republican
Olympia Snowe
Maine
1995 Present Republican
Susan Collins
Maine
1997 Present Republican
Mary Landrieu
Louisiana
1997 Present Democratic
Blanche Lincoln
Arkansas
1999 Present Democratic
Maria Cantwell
Washington
2001 Present Democratic
Hillary Rodham Clinton
New York
2001 Present Democratic
Debbie Stabenow
Michigan
2001 Present Democratic
Lisa Murkowski
Alaska
2002 Present Republican
Elizabeth Dole
North Carolina
2003 Present Republican
Amy Klobuchar
Minnesota
2007 Present Democratic
Claire McCaskill
Missouri
2007 Present Democratic
My read is that there are 11 Democratic and only 5 Republican senators who are women.
The house numbers were more difficult ot compute, so I have left them off, but of course Nancy Pelosi is speaker of the house and is a Democrat.
And of course Barack Obama is a minority running for president as a Democrat.
While I can honor your decision, it does not seem that your decision is based on the actual facts.
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Kim post 57,
not to mention Geraldine Ferraro was Mondale’s VP. Based on your comments, I assume you voted for Mondale.
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Musing-
It’s interesting to note that McCain has come out in favor of doing to our health care system, exactly what he did for the banking and financial markets with his unquestioning support for deregulation that lead to the meltdown.
McCain says: “Opening up the health insurance market to more vigorous nationwide competition, as we have done over the last decade in banking, would provide more choices of innovative products less burdened by the worst excesses of state-based regulation.”
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Hmm I had posted some detailed demographics of the Senate showing 11 women as Democratic Senators and 5 women as Republican senators, and noted that Nancy Pelosi as speaker of the house was a democrat. And do remember that Brack Obama is a minority.
So I sense that your decision here is not based on a rigorous analysis of the data.
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Godlumps at #51, quoting factCheck.org: A simple Google search reveals the falsity of the rumor, yet the e-mail continues to be passed along by the overly credulous.
“Overly credulous” is Outkast’s middle name.
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I wasn’t old enough vote for Mondale.
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Indeed Steve G.
Goes a long way to explaining the support for McCain, why has been nailed for lying more times than I can even keep track of.
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Musing- 61
Those are interesting facts that do appear to contradict the earlier assertion.
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Thanks for hanging in there, Kim. I never received any chain mails regarding the Holocaust denials, but it’s common knowledge that the same kind of people who deny the Holocaust also deny that it was terrorists who attacked our nation on 9/11. My mother had sent me an email based on conversations with her friends in Britain, BTW, not an email.
Thanks for the pics you showed, BTW. Chloe looked like she was having a blast!
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Random – Why do you & your Mrs. hate grass? And…wouldn’t it be easier to move your garden than to cut down those poor innocent trees?
Of course, you can’t answer this unless you break your own rule of not posting more than 10 comments a day. :-0)
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I like Factcheckdotorg. You find some good stuff there. Like today, I found out Obama is lying AGAIN, with the intent of scaring seniors into voting for him.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/scaring_seniors.html
“A new Obama ad characterizes the “Bush-McCain privatization plan” as “cutting Social Security Benefits in half.” This is a falsehood sure to frighten seniors who rely on their Social Security checks. In truth, McCain does not propose to cut those checks at all.”
And;
” The ad goes on to claim that the Bush (and McCain) plan would cut “benefits in half.” This is a rank misrepresentation.”
It’s kinda pathetic that election after election, Dems try to scare old people into voting for them with lies and misrepresentation. Same old tired tactics.
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Outkast – A belated Happy Anniversary to you & Mindy.
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That’s funny Outkast
The text in your post matches the chain mails word for word, except the final sentence you added to it to make it about this blog
Whatever. Circulate the junk and try to scare more people in to voting for the war monger McCain. We know your kind.
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Outkast at #66: I never received any chain mails regarding the Holocaust denials, but it’s common knowledge that the same kind of people who deny the Holocaust also deny that it was terrorists who attacked our nation on 9/11. My mother had sent me an email based on conversations with her friends in Britain, BTW, not an email.
Except that what you’re describing is what didn’t happen. The UK did NOT remove the Holocaust from its school curriculum. Your mother may have fallen for the same false rumor you did, which only proves that the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Are you really so thick that you don’t understand this, or are you desperately trying to save face?
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Too late.
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ABC NEWS:
Exclusive: New Doubts Over Palin’s Troopergate Claims
Internal Government Document Contradicts Sarah Palin, Campaign
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McCain ad misrepresents Obama’s tax plan. Again.
Summary
The McCain-Palin campaign has released a new ad that once again distorts Obama’s tax plans.
* The ad claims Obama will raise taxes on electricity. He hasn’t proposed any such tax. Obama does support a cap-and-trade policy that would raise the costs of electricity, but so does McCain.
* It falsely claims he would tax home heating oil. Actually, Obama proposed a rebate of up to $1,000 per family to defray increased heating oil costs, funded by what he calls a windfall profits tax on oil companies.
* The ad claims that Obama will tax “life savings.” In fact, he would increase capital gains and dividends taxes only for couples earning more than $250,000 per year, or singles making $200,000. For the rest, taxes on investments would remain unchanged.
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arah Palin has claimed she took a pay cut when Mayor of Wasilla. Yes, but then she gave herself an even larger raise!
Sarah Palin — A Bridge to Nowhere!
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#5 Random,
‘I very much doubt there are absolute universal moral laws in the universe.’
You may have doubts but I have absolutely none in stating, there are universal moral laws in the univers, but none of them are random
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Palin says Alaska supplies 20 percent of U.S. energy. Not true. Not even close.
Summary
Palin claims Alaska “produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy.” That’s not true.
Alaska did produce 14 percent of all the oil from U.S. wells last year, but that’s a far cry from all the “energy” produced in the U.S.
Alaska’s share of domestic energy production was 3.5 percent, according to the official figures kept by the U.S. Energy Information Administration.
And if by “supply” Palin meant all the energy consumed in the U.S., and not just produced here, then Alaska’s production accounted for only 2.4 percent.
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76-
It should also be noted, llamas have no morals
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A McCain-Palin TV ad accuses Obama of being “disrespectful” of Palin, but it distorts quotes to make the case.
Summary
The McCain-Palin campaign has released a new TV ad that distorts quotes from the Obama campaign. It takes words out of context to make it sound as though the Democratic ticket is belittling Palin:
* The ad says “they said she was doing ‘what she was told.’ ” But the Obama adviser who’s being quoted didn’t accuse Palin of meekly following orders. What he actually said is that she made a false claim about Obama’s legislative record and added, “maybe that’s what she was told.”
* It says “they lashed out at Sarah Palin; dismissed her as ‘good looking,’ ” But “they” didn’t lash out at all. Obama – who is the one pictured – didn’t say anything like that. The only one the McCain campaign quotes is Obama’s running mate, Biden, and he actually offered the remark as a compliment. Biden said the “obvious” difference between Palin and himself is “she’s good looking.”
* The ad says Obama was “disrespectful” when he accused Palin of “lying” about her record. But the truth is Palin’s claim to have “said no” to the “bridge to nowhere” is indeed a dubious one, as we and many have pointed out.
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Lumpy at #73,
Your own link to ABC explains why you and ABC are wrong, again.
“The document, a state travel authorization form, shows that Palin’s chief of staff, Mike Nizich, approved Monegan’s trip to Washington, D.C., “to attend meeting with Senator Murkowski.” The date next to Nizich’s signature reads June 18.
In response to inquiries about the document Friday, the McCain-Palin campaign provided a statement from Randy Ruaro, another aide to Palin.
According to Ruaro, Monegan asked for — and received — approval for the travel without telling Palin’s staff his reason for going. “As a matter of routine, the travel was approved by Mike Nizich … weeks before the actual purpose was made clear by former Commissioner Monegan,” Ruaro wrote.
“When you receive permission to travel, it does not mean that you receive blanket authorization to discuss or do whatever you would like on that trip,” he added.”
You and ABC doubt Palin because you choose to. If you’d like some insight as to the real reason for this investigation, see this;
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5972
“PSEA encourages its members to thank the Senate sponsors of SB 99 and the House sponsors of HB 193 for all their hard work especially as this last minute lobby against police involvement on the APSC is exposed.
The Union did not want Monegan fired because he was doing their bidding for them against the wishes of his boss Palin.
The Union knew about the Wooten investigation because they represented the trooper in the investigation. He was not fired because he was a foe of Palin.
The Union knew about the accusation of sexual harassment against Kopp because they represent the Troopers in the grievance process and they leaked a matter that is supposed to be confidential.
The Union knew Halcro who they back in the 2006 election would have no problem throwing the Wooten accusation out there.
The Union knew that Monegan would go along with it.
The Union knew that with 18 knew politicians in their pocket, they could get an investigation on these trumpted up charges by the Legislature to try to ruin Palin.”
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Llama has spoken today, so I will try to stand-in.
Obama is a Liberal Democrat as is Biden. They are the next thing to socialists if not socialists. Socialists always know better than you what to do with your money; they are smarter than you. They want to take your money and fix the world. They helped all the poor people get their own house by forcing Fanny and Freddie to lend them enough money to buy that house they deserve.I know you don’t believe me so just follow the money.
Who got the biggest campaign contributions from Fanny and Freddie? Who hired the former heads of Fanny? Who doesn’t know anything about it?
You have to watch who you vote for or you will end up giving everything to the poor and illegal. Oh, and bye the way, the Liberals will take their cut from the pie after they take it from you and before they give it to the most deserving.
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Palin is a fundamentalist Christian. We know how dangerous fundamentalists are to democracy and freedom.
McCain is an angry old goat.
McCain/Palin: Because America Hasn’t Suffered Enough!
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Godlumps post 61,
with as you seem to be suggesting plausiubly the same ineffective outcome.
What we seem to be observing is a class of failures of the free market which apparenlty can only be modulated by government intervention.
Healthcare is particularly interesting since it appears that the free market is leading to cost increases at double the rate of inflation. this is qyuite simply not sustainable.
And we have about as open competition in the healthcare industry as can reasonably be expected.
Yup – the comparison to the financial industry then does give one pause.
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Bob Buckles post 82,
what a clever form of argumentation:
“Obama is a Liberal Democrat as is Biden. They are the next thing to socialists if not socialists. Socialists always know better than you what to do with your money; they are smarter than you.”
You have conflated Obama being close to a socialist with your perception of socialists.
So by the numbers:
1) are Obama and Biden socialists?
2) Based on what data?
3) by comparison with recent actions by Bush?
4) and when you are done here, please explain your point in view of the Obama tax plan being more favorable to those earning under about $150K than the McCain tax plan
I look forward to your response.
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Kim post 64,
but now you can if you choose make up for it by voting for Obama!
In short, the statistics and history do not support your assertions regarding access to real power in each of the parties.
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Musing,
Be careful what you wish for when it comes to government regulations it was government regulations with unintended consequences that turned a real $82.5 Billion loss for mortgage holders who owned CMB’s into an $11 trillion dollar loss on paper which bankrupted the entire US financial and insurance industry that sold credit default swaps.
The Federal Accounting Standards Board, the regulating agency for all Accounting in the USA, changed the way assets had to be valued with their new regulation FASB 157 in September 2006. This new regulation forced companies to value their assets in accordance with what they could get for them if they sold them in the in the marketplace. It is called ‘Mark to Market’
It was put in place to stop what were considered abuses of criminal company officers who brought down Enron and Worldcom who artificially inflated the value of assets on the books, which helped make the company look more profitable and drove the stock up to a higher price than if these assets were properly values by non criminal. Regulators decided after due consideration that only real way to value assets was to make companies carry them on the books at fair market current value if they had to be sold. it sure sounds real fair decent and honest but this regulation cause the current financial meltdown
Since the Collateralized Mortgage Bond market had seized up, there were no sales for them at any price because buyers could not figure out how much each bond was worth. Buyers knew that there was 2.5% of the total $11 trillion mortgage market that were in foreclosure – a total of $165 billion over the normal foreclosure rate but they did not know which bonds, or the tranches within them had the bad loans or how much was in each one. They didn’t want to buy any bad loans so the market died. The price of all CMB’s went to zero – there were no buyers at any price so the value of the collateral mortgage bonds was zero.
This cause the owners of them and those that insured them, Credit Default swaps, to mark them down to zero value on their books with the new Mark to Market federal accounting regulations. So a $165 possible total loss became a real $11 trillion loss. This cause the immediate bankruptcy of firms that owned CMB’s and those that insured them like AIG.
So, it was government regulation that caused this mess. Are you sure you want more stupid regulations with even more horrible unintended consequences? Or do you want the FASB to remove the stupid 2006 mark to market rule number 157 so that the financial industry could immediately recover completely and operate like it did for hundreds of years without accounting regulation problems but suffered a few crooks?
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Bob-
You really need to use more words like wacko, wack job, leftist, marxist, murderers, haters, socialists….
It’s best if you can use them all in one sentence, but as a minimum, no fewer than three of these for any one sentence.
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Outkast wrote: “Hilarious! Obama has added a teleprompter to his entourage — even for outdoor venues!”
I mentioned this today tho someone who was mocking McCain for saying “FEC” when he meant “SEC” and it didn’t faze her at all. They absolutely do not see anything wrong with feeding the guy answers. One wonders how he’ll do in the debates.
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It doesn’t matter AJ.
Split all the hairs you like. You show she changed her reason.
I’m in a really good mood today due to the Palin-McCain campaign sliding in the polls again, so you’ll get no argument out of me!
Enjoy the day, guys and gals!
Thanks, but no thanks to Palin and McCain!
woohoo!
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Coyote Blue at #45,
The writer of the Post piece in question is sticking by his story. Don’t know for sure who is telling the truth on this. This piece gives a little more detail. Perhaps you’d like to read it. One thing is certain here, somebody’s lyin’.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OWI3MDQyNGIwOTczMTU2YmI1NjE5OWMxMGJkYTQzZTg=&w=MA==
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Lumpy,
You got some bizzare reasoning going there. How does clarifying and providing more details, equal to you, changing your reason? Please explain.
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Sorry Coyote,
I messed up my post in 90. It was supposed to include this from the link.
“In an interview published by the pan-Arab daily Asharq Alawast on September 11, 2008, Zebari raised the issue at length. This is part of what he said: “Obama asked me why, in view of a change of administration, we were hurrying the signing of this special agreement, and why we did not wait until the coming of a new administration next year to agree on some issues and matters.”
I said it because my Iraqi sources, who asked not to be identified because they do not wish to pick a quarrel with someone who could be the President of the United States next year, said it.
A day after my op-ed was published, Obama’s campaign issued a statement, in effect confirming what I had said.
It said, in part, “Senator Obama has consistently said that any security arrangements that outlast this administration should have the backing of the US Congress — especially given the fact that the Iraqi parliament will have the opportunity to vote on it.”
On Wednesday, the senator issued another statement — also in response to my op-ed — denying that he had ever opposed “a redeployment and responsible drawdown” of U.S. forces in Iraq. But I never said he did.”
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Sarah canceled half a dozen speaking and fundraising events this week. For you fans in the know, what’s going on? Is she sick or something?
Where is she appearing today?
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llama post 89,
why I do believe that you and I agree on the basics of the situation. We can perhaps leave any disagreement over details for latter.
I find it amusing that anyone in favor of free markets would object to valuations based on market prices. After all items are only as valuable as willing buyers are willing to pay, and at this point there are no willing buyers for these securities.
We have seen the unregulated industry create securities which, if we accept your numbers, allow a 2.5% foreclosure rate to freeze the entire market. Yup – the free market seems to have worked very well.
Effectively all forces in the drama are now clamoring for some form of increased regulation. The only questions seem to be whether the regulations protect only the financial institutions or whether the regulations will also protect the Federal Government, the tax payers, and those with mortgages.
And we have effectively watched the unraveling of the free market arguments which have dominated the discussion over the last eight years or so.
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“1) are Obama and Biden socialists?
2) Based on what data?”
Based on the 100 per cent approval rating of the American Socialist Party for both Senators, a score that exceeds, incidentally, that given to Rep Bernie Sanders of Vermont, the only registered Socialist in Congress.
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From KTUU News in Alaska: More Lies from the Palin-McCain Campaign
ANCHORAGE, Alaska — The John McCain-Sarah Palin campaign staged another news conference Tuesday trying to whip up the political winds surrounding an investigation into abuse of power allegations against Palin.
The campaign spokespersons — former Palin administration official Meg Stapleton and Ed O’Callaghan, a New York lawyer — now refer to themselves as the Palin Truth Squad.
But the squad’s version of events may be taking liberty with the truth on some topics related to the investigation, including from whom — and from what political party — any influence on the investigation is coming.
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Ken post 98,
lovely comment but I suggest that based on this logic McCain would presumably be an end times evangelical: Hagee endorsed McCain.
No, I suggest you must reverse your argument and show not that socialists like Obama, but that Obama supports socialism.
I suggest we need to start with agreeing on a clear definition of socialism. And your definition?
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Godlumps post 99,
I guess I am confused. Palin is a reformer. She agreed to cooperate with this ethics investigation before she was announced for VP candidate.
Do reform candidates usually stonewall ethics investigations which they have agreed to cooperate with?
I have seen this behavior with traditional politicians (Cheney comes to mind), but I am not aware of this behavior from reform candidates.
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1) Is Obama a Conservative?
2) Is John McCain a neo-conservative?
Yes! and Yes! According to the former board member and publisher of National Review, Witt Allison.
Some of his reasoning is below, but see the link to read his well reasoned Endorsement of Barrack Obama for President of the United States of America! woohoo!
_________________________________________________________________________________________
…[T]oday it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don’t work. The Bush tax cuts—a solution for which there was no real problem and which he refused to end even when the nation went to war—led to huge deficit spending and a $3 trillion growth in the federal debt. Facing this, John McCain pumps his “conservative” credentials by proposing even bigger tax cuts. Meanwhile, a movement that once fought for limited government has presided over the greatest growth of government in our history. That is not conservatism; it is profligacy using conservatism as a mask.
Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.
This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.
Barack Obama is not my ideal candidate for president. (In fact, I made the maximum donation to John McCain during the primaries, when there was still hope he might come to his senses.) But I now see that Obama is almost the ideal candidate for this moment in American history. I disagree with him on many issues. But those don’t matter as much as what Obama offers, which is a deeply conservative view of the world. Nobody can read Obama’s books (which, it is worth noting, he wrote himself) or listen to him speak without realizing that this is a thoughtful, pragmatic, and prudent man. It gives me comfort just to think that after eight years of George W. Bush we will have a president who has actually read the Federalist Papers.
Most important, Obama will be a realist. I doubt he will taunt Russia, as McCain has, at the very moment when our national interest requires it as an ally. The crucial distinction in my mind is that, unlike John McCain, I am convinced he will not impulsively take us into another war unless American national interests are directly threatened.
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Musing 101-
Therein lies the rub. She says she’s a reformer, but she’s playing like a Bushie. Talks like a Bushie. She’s a Bushie. More of the McSame.
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She even brought in the big guns from the RNC to try to quash the investigation into Troopergate.
I still have a hard time believing she was ever vetted beyond reciting a loyalty oath.
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Musing: The data has been around for years, confirming that Obama is the most liberal U.S. Senator and Biden is the third most liberal Senatore.
McLumpy adores Obama, which implies that McLumpy is another liberal as well.
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Outkast, I’m a Libertarian along the lines of Wick Allison, former publisher of National Review, who has endorsed Obama because McCain is not a conservative, but a neo-conservative.
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Did you all see the GREAT news today!
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Vice President Dick Cheney must preserve a broad range of records from his time in office, a federal judge ordered Saturday, ruling in favor of a private watchdog group.
U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly found that the records are not excluded from preservation under Presidential Records Act, which gives the national archivist responsibility over the custody of and access to the records at the end of a president’s final term.
The Bush administration had sought a narrow interpretation of the act to allow for fewer materials to be preserved by the National Archives.
Woo-hoo! Preserve the evidence boys, and don’t let the door hit you in the behind on the way out.
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outkast,
well we can discuss whether Obama is the most liberal candidate ever.
There is, however, a stretch from being a liberal to being a socialist, and it is that Obama is a socialist which is the argument which has been made.
Since no one including you have provided any evidence whatsoever that Obama is a socialist, then I suggest that most plausibly there is no evidence that Obama is a socialist.
And this would then appear to be yet another unfounded and unsubstantiated argument from Obama detractors.
It would perhaps be helpful if facts and data could be presented to support assertions such as these.
As we can see, no facts or data appears to be forth coming.
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Lumpy,
If Cheney is as devious as people like you think, then he’s smart enough to have shredded anything bad. Or maybe Sandy Berger’d them. You can’t be Darth Vader and miss the small stuff. I’m sure Cheney, Rove, and Bush had a big ole bonfire around the time Scooter was gettin’ nervous. They probably sat around and roasted hot dogs and computer hard drives. Now you know why Bush is always at Crawford. It’s a good place to burn stuff. Why do you think he’s always gathering firewood. But hey, keep diggin’. At least it keeps you, and apparently private watchdog groups, busy.
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Breaking news, and it ain’t good.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93AQGUG0&show_article=1&catnum=0
“Federal authorities conducting a child-porn investigation raided the headquarters Saturday of a ministry run by a convicted tax evader once labeled by prosecutors as a polygamist who preys on girls and women.
Social workers interviewed children who live at the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries complex, which critics call a cult, to find out whether they were abused. The two-year investigation involves a law that prohibits the transportation of children across state lines for criminal activity, said Tom Browne, who runs the FBI office in Little Rock.
“Children living at the facility may have been sexually and physically abused,” Browne said.”
“We don’t go into pornography; nobody in the church is into that,” Alamo said. “Where do these allegations stem from? The anti-Christ government. The Catholics don’t like me because I have cut their congregation in half. They hate true Christianity.”
Oh boy…….. Get your smocks on, it won’t be long till the broad brushes show up.
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The difference these days between being a liberal or a socialist is like the difference between being Indian or dark-skinned.
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outkast,
so you provide neither a true definition of socialist which can be discussed nor any facts to support your assertions.
As usual outkast, much words but no substance.
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As usual, Musing, I don’t care to be engaged in your never-ending circular reasonings.
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So it would appear that the Bush proposal:
a) provides a nearly blank check for the financial industry
b) provides no protection for the homeowner or the tax payer
NY Times aerticle on bailout
I suggest that as a minimum the following will be needed:
a) additional regulatory authority to reduce future problems of this form
b) protection of the tax payers (who are now on the hook for about $2000/person)
c) some protection for the mortgage owner
It looks like it will be a rough week next week.
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outkast,
with no facts and no information, all you could do is go in circles.
It would seem wise of you to withdraw from the discusison.
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NJLawyer: I mentioned this today tho someone who was mocking McCain for saying “FEC” when he meant “SEC” and it didn’t faze her at all. They absolutely do not see anything wrong with feeding the guy answers. One wonders how he’ll do in the debates.
Who’s feeding answers? All politicians read speeches. Obama will do perfectly well at debates.
You people really need to let go of this teleprompter thing. There’s nothing unusual about it, and if that’s the best ammo you’ve got, Obama’s in fine shape.
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Outkast – 111
Most of them haven’t a clue, you can’t teach something to anyone who winds their way around circles when all else fails. It’s been going on toooooo long on this blog.
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The following appears to be a text of the draft proposal as presently written:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html
It seems pretty minimal on protections given that this is a $700B proposal.
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Musing- 112
In my experience, Outkast doesn’t follow through on discussions with supporting facts. Just drops a load of crap and runs away. Post 20 or 113 for example.
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AJ- 109
What do you see as the reasoning to not retain records for the National Archives? The Bushies have a wonderful legacy coming, we are told. Wouldn’t it be better to preserve the records of this legacy?
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SteveG-
Have you seen Peter Leavitt’s favorite source of polling? inTrade has Obama up 51.5 to McCain’s 47.5, and 311 to McCain’s 227 electoral votes as I write!
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Did I oversleep and wake up on Christmas morning? Republican Dick Cheney has to preserve his records, and now this? Surely we are blessed.
WASHINGTON — In a year of mesmerizing political scenes, one of the most remarkable will begin to play out next week just down Constitution Avenue from the Capitol.
Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska, who as the longest serving Republican senator has prowled the corridors of Congress since 1968, will go on trial in federal court on charges of failing to disclose $250,000 in gifts and home renovations from a politically connected oil services company.
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Bob Herbert, in today’s New York Times had a great descriptor of Sarah Palin:
“SnowJob SquareGlasses”
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Musing- 118
Not much there for the people, is there.
This hits hard:
Sec. 10. Increase in Statutory Limit on the Public Debt.
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.
11.3 trillion in debt. What a deregulation legacy for the Bushies. I’d want to burn my records too. Where will these guys live when they are finally kicked out? Dubai? Texas? Undisclosed location?
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#97 Musing,
You have a problem confusing issues and changing the subject. I said nothing about free markets and they have nothing to do with problem. FASB 157 does not regulate the CMB market or its freedom. It is federal regulation that sounds good but it is a very dangerous stupid one, as we all have found out. This regulation does not regulate a market, it regulates how assets are to valued for legal accounting.
I am all for free markets in all cases, but, if real freedom was a criteria for setting the valuations of an asset, then people should be able to choose how they value their assets and no one should tell them how to do so if it causes entire financial systems to collapse. This is of course what we had for hundreds of years with little problem. As soon as we take away this freedom then wham -= the financial system collapse because of this freedom denying change.
No, the 2.5% foreclosure rate and the CMB market, regulated or no, did not cause the freezing up of the financial system. A government accounting regulation that valued assets did the caused the freezing of the markets. The free markets did work very well as they always do – every time without question, but regulations that limit freedom of markets or how assets are to valued do fail often.
The market was never the probelm but there were problems.
Crooks hide non conforming loans and passed them off as triple A rated paper to investors.
Rating agencies of CMB’s rated these bonds triple A when they were not.
Insurance companies issued credit default swaps based on a triple A rating that they never verified as being correct.
Investors who bought the CMB’s assumed the were rated properly without checking them out and then went to banks to borrow 30 dollars for ever dollar of collateral the CMB’s represented and the banks assumed the triple a rating was correct and issued loans at 30 to one with these CMB’s as the one collateral.
You notice I did not include the crooks that originated the loans fraudulently or to those that got them fraudulently because these people did not cause the collapse of the whole financial system. they just caused a real $82.5 real billion dollar loss that should easily have been covered in a normal course of business.
The failure was put in motion by crooks who hid the subprime loans in triple A rated bonds. Crooks always start these things and regulations do not stop them. It got out of hand because of one accounting regulation that instantly bankrupted the entire industry because it forced mark to market value of zero dollars for assets worth over $10.8 trillion dollars.
My point stands. Be careful what you wish for. Federal regulations caused this mess to a vast majority – like they usually do. You can’t beat freedom most often. More regulation has a better chance of failing and causing problems than just removing FASB157 which solves every thing -as example.
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No kidding, Victoria. I love to stick around and watch Lumpy make a fool of herself, though!
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The Palin haters are the same crowd as always. They forget she exemplifies the basic character attributes, actions and belief systems of Our Founding Fathers – almost to a T – except she is not a man of course. Is that the problem – these people are are anti woman? No. But these same people don’t like capitalism or religion much, don’t like our founding fathers who were conservative and Christian and pretty much hate America today as much as they hate Bush and Palin but they will tell you they love America they just don’t like its mission or what it has become.
So, at least they are consistently whacked out.
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Outkast,
Lumpy is a way far out there, totally whacked out lefty of the highest order despite his claims otherwise. Never ever believe what they say – just what what he does. Yep, he be very far from libertarian and a Marxist for sure. He doesn’t fool anyone
He is probably on the Obama payroll too.
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No conservative would ever endorse a Marxist like Obama for any reason – especially because McCain isn’t conservative enough. What drivel. He must think we are as insane and as easily fooled as a lefty.
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Musing still needs to read a dictionary rather than have someone else do it for her I see. Sloth is one of the 7 deadly sins you know.
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We have a clear choice in this election: vote for the Democrats or vote for the right-wing fascists.
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Llama,
I love Sarah.
She is the reason compasses point North. She is the reason sea ice is melting. Without her, Tadd would take Alaska and trade it to Russia for snow machine fuel.
All praise Deborah. I mean Sarah.
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Llama,
Conservatives? Like W. the Administration that is doing the largest nationalization of an industry in the U.S. ever? I scoff at conservatives who criticize “socialists” and “marxists” You all are worse than the dems ever were.
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Llama 130
What are you talking about? Reposado or anejo?
Wick Allison is a conservative. John McCain is a neo-conservative, or Bush conservative. Not a conservative. My grandfather was a conservative. My dad is a conservative. I am a conservative. Obama is a conservative. We believe in paying as we go. We leave war as a last resort.
Wick Allison, whose Obama Endorsement I linked to in post 102 (hit the link to Dallas Magazine and read it, everyone), is a 5th generation Texas Conservative. Worked on the Nixon’s Commission on Campus Unrest, served in the military, went to the Cox School of Business, and had a child with developmental difficulties.
Along the way he joined William F. Buckley as a board member, and served as publisher of National Review Magazine.
Also edited a new edition of “The Bible To Be Read As Living Literature,” published by Simon & Schuster.
He is the author of “Is That In The Bible?” (Dell, 1992)
and “Condemned To Repeat It: History Lessons For Leaders” (Viking Penguin, 1998).
Is this the short version of the life’s work of a socialist, Llama?
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CoyoteBlue – 134
You scoff – SO WHAT? You don’t criticize socialists or marxists do you? – because you do WHY?
Are you are socialist or a marxist? If you are, why not state just what and who you are?
You certainly have opened yourself up to your true beliefs CB – what else would you like to share?
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My POST – 136
My post read:
“You scoff – SO WHAT? You don’t criticize socialists or marxists do you? – because you do WHY?”
IT SHOULD READ:
You scoff – SO WHAT? You don’t criticize socialists or marxists do you? – because you don’t WHY?
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Don’t do meth, guys and gals.
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59 (Musing): It is interesting to watch the recriminations regarding the present financial issues. I suggest that recriminations are not particularly useful, since what is done is done, HOWEVER it is useful to understand the process which led us to this situation so that corrective actions can be targeted effectively.
Excellent Point, Musing! Here is the chronology of this alarming debacle:
1. The seeds of the crisis were sown in 1977 when Carter signed the “Community Reinvestment Act” forcing banks to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers. Age-old standards of banking prudence got thrown out the window. In their place came harsh new regulations requiring banks not only to lend to uncreditworthy borrowers, but to do so on the basis of race.
2. These well-intended rules were supercharged in the early 1990s by President Clinton. Despite warnings from GOP members of Congress in 1992, Clinton pushed extensive changes to the rules requiring lenders to make questionable loans…No fewer than four federal bank regulators scrutinized financial firms’ books to make sure they were in compliance. Failure to comply meant your bank might not be allowed to expand lending, add new branches or merge with other companies. Banks were given a so-called “CRA rating” that graded how diverse their lending portfolio was. “We have to use every means at our disposal to end discrimination and to end it as quickly as possible,” Clinton’s comptroller of the currency, Eugene Ludwig, told the Senate Banking Committee in 1993.
3. Meanwhile, Congress gave Fannie and Freddie the go-ahead to finance it all by buying loans from banks, then repackaging and securitizing them for resale on the open market. With those changes, the subprime market took off. From a mere $35 billion in loans in 1994, it soared to $1 trillion by 2008.
4. As they grew, Fannie and Freddie grew heavily involved in “community development,” giving money to local housing rights groups and “empowering” the groups, such as ACORN, for whom Barack Obama once worked in Chicago. Warning signals were everywhere. Yet at every turn, Democrats in Congress halted attempts to stop the madness. It happened in 1992, again in 2000, in 2003 and in 2005. It may happen this year, too.
5. President Bush in 2003 tried desperately to stop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from metastasizing into the problem they have since become. From the New York Times story on Sept. 11, 2003: “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.” Congressional Democrats blocked Bush: “These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Rep. Barney Frank, then ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. “The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
6. In 2005, just two years after Bush’s plan, McCain also called for badly needed reforms to prevent a crisis like the one we’re now in: “If Congress does not act,” McCain said in 2005, “American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole.” But his warnings, too, were ignored by Congress.
Read the whole story here:
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306632135350949
and here:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2008/09/20/why-our-financial-system-nearly-collapsed/
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I’m hearing a lot of rumors that Biden is going to develop “health problems” and will quit the ticket in October. He will, of course, be replaced with Hillary.
I tell you now, if that happens, and they win, Obama will not live long. Hillary WANTS that President job. I honestly do not believe that Obama will survive 4 years.
And, sadly, the supposed “right-wing conspiracy” will be blamed.
Still, it could be a stupid move on their part. They’ll gain a lot of women, but they will also mobilize the Right like they’ve never been mobilized before. Hillary is really, really, really disliked. (And, that is saying it nicely.)
If the Dems want to see Republican mobilization, they need to put her on the ticket. And, if they manage to win anyway, they will certainly live to see the first woman President…since Hillary has no scruples.
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Interesting occurence at my workplace yesterday. A legal assistant decided to post an anti-Palin rant to our firm (150 employees +/-). This is not allowed under policy and she was reprimanded for it. What was interesting was I went and talked to who I would consider a legitimate sway voter to get her opinion on the email to see how it influenced her. She was completely turned off by the derogatory tone towards the candidate in the email.
This is a good lesson in encouraging posters to praise your candidate instead of spending your days bashing the oppositions candidate. People are not stupid (well some aren’t) and even sway voters are turned off by negative campaigning. Your side may lose not because you are the better or worse side but because you relied on slander to try and win the election.
Perhaps it is time to promote the virtues of your candidates and take the focus off of the pitfalls of the opposition or you just may be watching your worst nightmare sworn in this January.
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llama post 126,
but of course I did not change the subject at all.
You stated:
“You have a problem confusing issues and changing the subject. I said nothing about free markets and they have nothing to do with problem. FASB 157 does not regulate the CMB market or its freedom. It is federal regulation that sounds good but it is a very dangerous stupid one, as we all have found out. This regulation does not regulate a market, it regulates how assets are to valued for legal accounting.”
I noted that based on your statements that all this regulation did is ensure that securities were valued at market rates.
It would seem that you do n ot want the ballance sheets and assets to be valued at what a corporation can actually realize for the asset.
You claim that this is a dangersous regulation.
I am amused that you would find it appropriate to valuye an asset at something other than what could be relaized for it, particularly with something as volatile as securities.
It is not this regulation, but rather the unregulrated behavior of this market where the free market created an entitiy which by your own admission allows a mere 2.5% foreclosure rate to completely obscure the value of the entire security.
You noted:
“Crooks hide non conforming loans and passed them off as triple A rated paper to investors.
Rating agencies of CMB’s rated these bonds triple A when they were not.”
But this merely demonstrates that in thisa case the free market has been shown to fail in this case.
The Federal Government is now coming to the rescue.
And we will now see much additional regulation to attempt to keep this from occurring again.
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llama post 126,
now I will make a limited agreement with you: these new regulations are unlikely to protect us from the new creativity which will be brought to the financial markets after this blows over. Free market traders are very creative.
I also suggest that since GDP is based on total monetary transactions, and since these transactions are based in large measure on credit, that tthe inevitable credit contraction will reduce GDP activity.
But the alternative of an essentially unregulated set of financial activities being in a position to cause the entire financial system tto seize based on the actions of in this case only 2.5% of the market, based on llama’s numbers, has now been shown to be totally unacceptable.
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llama post 130,
if you are going to call Obama a aMarxist, then please provide:
1) a clear defintion of Marxist: so far it appears that this defintion means anyone yu don’t like
2) show how Obama is a Marxist
I have already noted that based on the end of history argument of traditional Marxism, Obama is clearly not a Marxist.
but as is apparently typical of the Obama detractors, they are more than happy to make unfounded and unsupported accusations but beware of anyone who makes a fact supported accusation (say such as troopergate) against Palin.
Their duplicity and hypocricy is very easy to see.
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#70 Karen,
Thanks, Mom, for keeping an eye on my posting addiction.
Karen,
In regard to lawns.
Personal Traumas I have had bad experiences with lawns. As members of the “working poor” most of our lives (not oppressed, just dumb), we lived in rental houses until recently. We usually wanted to have a garden. Landlords think they will never be able to rent their house again if they have a garden instead of a lawn. We would have to beg a landlord’s permission to dig up his ground to put in a garden and swear on a stack of Bibles we would restore the lawn before we moved out. You think getting your cleaning fee back from a landlord when you move out is problematic …
Also, we lived in rental houses with poor drainage and extensive lawns on uneven ground. Before I could mow the grass (a requirement from keeping the landlord from going nuclear) it would grow waist high in the swamp-like ground. Also, I have hay fever so I would be sneezing and sniveling as I pushed the lawn mower over rocks and through gullies.
Ideology. When we visited relatives in the California high desertwe were amazed to see acres and acres of neatly tended lawns with sprinklers spraying the grass. What part of the word “desert” don’t these people understand?
Also, mowers waste gasoline and contribute to air and sound pollution. At one time, I bought a Black & Decker electric mower. It was quiet and emitted no fumes. I was so proud of myself. I have never been divorced, but my relationship with the Black & Decker company and that particular product came close enough to a marriage going bad to understand what the experience is like.
Terrorist vermin Slugs slime across the lawn on wet nights in hordes, intent on attacking our carrots and potatoes. In Vietnam, the United States sprayed “Agent Orange” on jungles to stop guerillas from infiltrating our bases.
Also, the “innocent trees” I cut down were alders. Alders are to forests as dandelions are to lawns.
Don’t get me wrong. It’s in the 137th Amendment to the Constitution that the government shall not abridge the right of every American to water their lawn day and night, smother it in high phosphate fertilizers, or sun himself or herself on their lawn no matter how much or little clothes they are wearing or how worthy their body is worthy of leering at.
But too many Americans are just going through the motions of appreciating and honoring their lawn. A lawn has thousands of blades of grass. People who worship their lawns are not monotheists.
However, with all that said, we may keep a tiny patch of grass so Random Granddaughter can have tea parties with her dollies when she visits. Though, she is more of a Tonka toy girl than a tea party girl, so if she wants to take a toy backhoe to the lawn we will not stand in her way. (We may buy her a Palin doll.)
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llama post 133,
I do agree that sloth is an inapproproate approach. The slothfulness of many conservatives in not checking the actual facts of the situation is something to be believed.
The slothfullnes and unwillingness to provide what they mean by a defintion seems to be a congenital defect.
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llama post 133,
in the past we have seen that under certain conditions you appear to be happy to unabashedly lie with apparent abandon. Your comment on definitions suggests that perhgaps you are starting down this path again.
But as I consider it, perhaps this explains your emapthy and affiliation with Palin and McCain.
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Dr Dave post 139,
I suggest your point 3 is the critical step:
“3. Meanwhile, Congress gave Fannie and Freddie the go-ahead to finance it all by buying loans from banks, then repackaging and securitizing them for resale on the open market. With those changes, the subprime market took off. From a mere $35 billion in loans in 1994, it soared to $1 trillion by 2008.”
The next breakdown was as llama notes when poor quality moirtgages were collateralized and misrated.
Note that these this occurred under the deregulation pushed by the Republicans.
The Republicans and deregulation own this problem, the Republicans due to a chance of timing own the first steps in the recovery, and barring some very clever politics, the Republicans will own the infamy.
We are on our way back to reregulation, although as I noted, this will have its own issues. But honesty in the financial markets, rather than llama’s apparent preferences for misstating the value of assets, will presumably become the order of the day.
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We had a disaster a few years ago in New Orleans. The Bush Administration, with some good reason, criticised the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans. The state of New Orleans and the city of Louisiana, with some good reason, criticized the Bush Administration. Although we may be running out of oil, blame is not a natural resource in short supply.
Racism and discrimination against poor people were real problems. Attempts to alleviate past injustices and solve present problems often cause more problems than they solve, perhaps because they violate the law of unintended consequences, which may be a univers law. (By the way, “univers” is the name of a typeface. Universe is the name for the dimension where we live.) In any case, attempts to make it easier for poor people to buy houses (so they can turn nice neighborhoods into slums) backfired, as do jalopies owned by poor people.
On the other hand the masters of the univers of free enterprise demonstrated how smart and responsible they are by coming up with the smart idea of bundling mortgages and trading them around so that no one was responsible for anything. As with Louisiana and New Orleans, there is no shortage of blame to go around, though there is an acute (perhaps cute as well) shortage of ability to take responsibility.
Hurricanes are actually quite smart. Instead of going after New Orleans again, this time one went after Galveston. They new enough time had passed for Issac’s Storm to be forgotten. As Jerry Pournelle was fond of saying, “Think of it as evolution in action.” Check back in fifty years and see if Galveston has become the smartest city in the United States.
However, the death toll in Galveston seems to be remarkably low. We may have discovered proof that prayer works.
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/5088
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I do know how to spell knew, but I don’t take responsibility for my failure to do so. There is nothing knew in the univers.
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So Paulson is on admitting to the failures in the unregulated financial market and that the present admitted exposure is about $1.3T.
A week ago, llama argued we were exposed to only about $200B.
I do believe we are seeing the pattern.
And the total maximum exposure, now apparently agreed to by llama, appears to be about $11T.
And Stephenopoulis just noted that the S&L crisis went form about $50B to $150B, and Paulson only stuttered in response.
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And now Paulson comments on the 50 independent insurance regulators, supplying a degree of credance to the comments rising over HR5840 which will place insurance regulation in the hands of the Feds.
But the Feds did so well this time, it is not obvious to me why the Feds should be trusted in the insurance case.
So far the insurance industry appears to, with the exception of AIG which was apparently brought down by its non-insurance subsidiaries, reasonably sound.
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And Paulson has now admitted that the administration proposal does not have the needed additional regulations.
“We need a lot of reforms” Paulson says, but “these shouldn’t be done in a matter of days.”
We see the slide coming: bailouts for the financial institutions, but no protection for tax payers.
And no comments on protecting the homeowner.
Yup – this week shall be fun.
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“This is not a time for ideological purity”
John Boehner R Ohio
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If Boehmer is arguing to avoid ideology, why does it appear that the conservative wing of the Republican party does not want to take action?
And why would we not want to enact the first stages of regulation as part of the intial package, particularly given that it is admitted that the lack of regulation led to the probloem AND there are no protections for tax payers in the present bill.
Accountability and reciprocity should be a reasonable expectation (Dodd).
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It is interesting that John Boehner apparently considers the situation so serious that it si not appropriate to discuss it on Sundday television.
And people argue that I have been overstating the seriousness of the situation?
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George Will is willing to define socialism (something which the conservatives on this blog appear unwilling to do) as:
“The government controls the commanding heights of the economy”
Based on this, the Bush administration is about to exercise the most socialist activity that our government has seen since the Great Depression.
Note: it is Republicans leading us to socialism if we accept this definition of socialism.
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And as a postscript it is perhaps worth noting that congress is indeed a key coequal branch of government with its own deliberative responsiblities.
Just because the administration hands a proposed bill to congress does not mean that this excuses congress from exercising its own responsiblities in reviewing the bill and adjusting the bill to meet national needs.
Or short answer: congress has responsiblities which preclude it from simply rolling over and accepting legislation proposed by the administration.
So no whining from the right when congress deliberates and proposes modifications to the bailout package this week.
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TRS at #140: I’m hearing a lot of rumors that Biden is going to develop “health problems” and will quit the ticket in October. He will, of course, be replaced with Hillary.
In 2004, when Hillary wasn’t running, people were hearing rumors that she was going to enter at the last possible minute. Those rumors persisted up until the deadline passed.
The right is obsessed with Hillary Clinton, so I guess it’s only natural that such rumors circulate. But how about we agree to believe it when we see it?
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Victoria
LOL. Yes I scoff at the so called free marketers of the conservative republican party who are instigating one of the biggest government takeovers of an industry in U.S. history who can’t seem to call it what it is. Naked Marxism where the State controls means and production of services. Dems, since Roosevelt have wanted the State to take a hand in things like health care — that is a far, far cry from taking over Wall Street. So yes I scoff.
Now what that tells you about my personal opinion is precious little, but I know you like to assume the worst about non-Christian sorts (or so it seems) so assume whatever you want to. And once you have finished deriding what I have not said, come back and read the following.
What the latest meltdown on Wall Street tells us is a confirmation of what we should have learned in 1929. Unbridled capitalism has flaws and the invisible hand needs a bit of an assist to stem pure greed. I would think that folks who believe in the corrupted nature of man would get that. So, is there a place for gov’t regulation — clearly yes and in an array of fields (worker safety, labor laws, product safety, etc.), does that mean that it is a good for the State to control means of production, no. If you had to give me a label then you would have to call me a moderate capitalist — one who can see pragmatically that the markets often cannot or will not regulate themselves and at that point the “invisible” hand does not work so a more visible hand needs to step in.
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#42 Klasko
“But my sister, who lives in MA told me she saw salt potatoes in BJ’s.”
That one made me laugh, recalling an incident a few years back. Preparing for our annual Columbus Day camping weekend in Allegany State Park (Western New York State), we decided to cook salt potatoes for one of the meals. One of our friends met us late at night at the local Wegman’s, and was helping us shop.
She found a bag of “salt potatoes” and was surprised that the salt was packaged separately. She had thought it was actually a special kind of potato, and that the salt was part of the potato. We had a good laugh about that, and pointed out to her that any sort of smallish, thin-skinned potato will do. It is a salt potato because of deliciously unhealthy amount of salt you boil it in, and then sprinkle on top, along with the wonderfully unhealthy drenching in butter.
MMMMMMMM
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Musing: George Will has never been known to represent the conservative wing of the GOP. Spin again.
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Thomas – I grew up in Syracuse, whence the salt for said potatoes. It comes form the salt marshes around Syracuse. You’re right, any small new potatoes will do, but they always taste better when you make them with the salt that comes in the bag with them. I have made them with table salt, and it’s just not the same. We used to just roll them on a stick of hard butter. Yummy!!! Soooooooo not good for you. Come to think of it, we just got a Wegmans here in Northern VA in June. I should check and see if they have any.
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Obama is a Marxist like his parents were. He is not a socislist. Most democrats are socialists biut Obama goes way beyond that.
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coytote blue,
Congress approved and took over, nationalized, Freddie and Fannie – the only descents were Republicans of course. This was done by a socialist, liberal, democrat congress. This the problem with lefties. They do nit even know how government works. They think that the president and their administrations have power to do these these things but they do not. Presidents can’t control the economy, cannot raise or lower taxes, cannot take over industries or parts of them, etc etc. Only congress can do those things.
Since congress did not approve the takeover of AIG or the rest of financial industry, at least not yet anyway, a loan guarantee was done for AIG (no nationalization there) and the government is supposedly going to buy up the bad paper in the CMB market so this is not nationalization either.
Only lefties, socialists and Marxists, like our current democratically controlled congress, or other socialists and Marxists like Hugo Chavez, Mao, Stalin and Castro nationalize industries in a free market. It is always a very bad thing to do to since it means that the lefties have stolen part of our freedom as they always do and they discriminate against capitalists. They are slave master at heart and they have no self control no shame and can never be satisfied They now feel equal to their real heroes – Chavez, Castro, Mao and Stalin.
Oh, lefties also took over the Federal Accounting Standards Board and passed FASB 157 that caused this financial meltdown in the second place and they created the mess in the first place when they created the ‘community reinvestment act under Carter that forced, yes forced, lending institutions to loan money to low income minorities who could never afford a house min a first place. When Charlie Rangel and Chris Dodd took over the banking committee, the sub prime loans were 5% of the total but they were 20% of the total when the collapse happened. OF course Charlie doesn’t pay his taxes and Chris get sweetheart loans from Countrywide. Who would have guessed?
See you blame the wrong people as usual and need to point the finger at yourself. Lefties soul never be allowed to be in control of anyone’s money or security.
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Thanks for causing me to smile today, Llama!
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We all laugh when Llama writes
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Not as much as when spamming trolls write their nonsense!!
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“Stung by job losses in manufacturing, Ohio’s unemployment rate jumped to 7.4 percent in August, up from 7.2 percent the month before and the highest rate in 16 years, the state reported Friday.”
What was 16 years ago? Hmmmmm….. the end of that other Bush’s Presidency?”
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Good post Llama -
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Wick Allison is correct.
Neo-cons are not conservatives. They don’t know nor appreciate history. In fact, they don’t even appreciate the present. During the lead up to the Iraq invasion and when confronted with facts to contradict their narrative, they scoffed at the reality based community and proclaiming America an Empire they declared they would make reality. A conservative would take the words of the founder of modern conservatism Edmund Burke to heart; you can not found a new society without reference to the past. On this basis he criticized the Jacobins of the Fr. Revolution yet approved of the American Revolution — a revolution which referred to the past and changed in accordance to the facts on the ground.
For all the gnashing of teeth here over the most liberal senator, its the neo-cons who are the true Marxists and revolutionaries. Using the same Hegelian tools as Marx, they view economics and the material world as the basis of a civilization. And similar to the left of the 19th century, they have secularized the eschatological focus of Christianity in which the terror is justified as they work towards the end of history. As Marx proclaimed the dictatorship of the proletariat to be the end, the neo-cons declared bourgeois democracy to be the end of history. Both employed Marxists analysis they just disagreed over the winner.
Hence, for the neo-cons the past and even the present can be changed to suit the necessity of the future – one does not lie, one only changes the present to align with the future.
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A real socialist solution to the current “credit crisis” instead of bailing out the lender said of the ledger Congress should bail out the borrower side of the ledger. They should thank Paulson for notifying them of the crisis and then give the money to the American people to pay off their debts. With their debts paid, the financial corporations will be solvent again. Crisis solved.
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Neo-cons are not conservatives.
Who are you referring to as “neo-cons,” HRW? You know the definition of neo-cons, correct?
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Good post HRW -
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I just wanted to sum up the national financial difficulties for those of you who are as uneducated as I am. This cartoon of Sheldon’s grandfather has a succinct and humorous summary:
http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/080920.html
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Whoops. That should be the next day:
http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/080921.html
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What they should have done a year ago was pass legislation forcing the mortgage industry to modify and/or refinance the mortgages for people who were caught in the ARMs and those creative mortgages. They could have tacked on the fees and added a few years to the mortgage, then when things settled down, people would have refinanced again. Many of them could have been saved, and the foreclosures would have been kept to a normal amount. Also, they should have set up borrowing regulations proscribing those creative loans. Yes, some people would have been foreclosed, but not nearly as many.
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MUSING: Based on this, the Bush administration is about to exercise the most socialist activity that our government has seen since the Great Depression.
Isn’t it ironic, the government came to help, and Wall Street is so relieved, it has spent the day in church singing the Te Deum.
But Musing, it’s not the same administration. W. doesn’t come out any more. This is the Paulson-Bernanke Administration.
LLAMA Congress approved and took over, nationalized, Freddie and Fannie. . . This was done by a socialist, liberal, democrat congress.
The placing of Freddie and Fannie into conservatorship was executed by the Bush-nominated head of an agency that was created by a law Bush signed in July. This transaction was planned and arranged by Sec. Treasury Paulson and supported by Ben Bernanke, who had previously joined in failed attempts to prop up the enterprises.
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Outkast
neo-cons — neo meaning new and cons short for conservatives ie new conservatives. Used originally as an insult, it was applied to those who defected from the left due to their dissatisfaction with the New Left, the Great Society and the nomination of McGovern. They moved to the right for purpose of attaining power declaring that economic liberalism must be combined with social conservatism in order to gain power. In a similar vein they also embraced the Platonic noble lie as it pertained to maintaining power. They also embraced bourgeois democracy instead of the proletariat victory yet never lost the sense of end of history. Of course, this is over a generation ago and Bill Kristol did not transform from the New Left to a neo-con; his dad did.
Now did I pass the test?
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177
What they should have done a year ago was
But at the time the fundamentals of the economy were fine and there was no reason for panic or whining, correct?
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Correct, HRW, the fundamentals of the U.S. economy are still fine, and there’s till no reason for panic or whining. Senator McCain was correct when he made that statement, and his comment still holds true.
Our free-market economy will correct itself, as it always does.
Aren’t you socialists in Canada jealous?
BTW, too many of you leftists throw the term “neocon” around” whenever you want to insult your opponents. Actually, the term was originally meant to refer to Jewish nationalists, so I think it strange that some have distorted its use so much today to refer to even social conservatives as “neocons” (see Lumpy as a prime example).
Lefists certainly show their ignorance when they define terms so loosely.
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If the free market can correct itself, Paulson should apologize for his panic and withdraw his request for a bailout.
I’ve linked the following Maclean’s article before but I do it again just to point out us socialists are doing quite well and often wonder when those capitalists to the south will manage to balance and stabilize their economy.
http://tinyurl.com/6jptve
You need to understand that when the Bush administration was tearing up the regulatory framework which provided the stability needed to counteract the natural tendencies of capitalism to boom and bust, the Liberal administration under Chretian/Martin kept the necessary regulations. With the undeniable influence of the American breakdown our economy has slowed but unlike the US our fundamentals are good — stable real estate, a solvent banking and insurance sector, etc. Although Harper has come close to screwing up, the minority situation in parliament and the political suicide of a deficit has kept him on a narrow path.
“Jewish nationalists” — quite the ambiguous term you are throwing about so loosely. Do you meaning Israeli nationalist or do you mean Jewish American nationalist. Yes, the original neo-con movement was dominated by Jewish intellectuals who were anti-Soviet yet left wing and who became right wing when the New Left and the counterculture became to anti-American for them. Perhaps you mean to say Jewish-American nationalists — it would be accurate but unnecessary to note their Jewish ethnicity, only their commitment to America which forced them to realign their political opinion.
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If you had to give me a label then you would have to call me a moderate capitalist — one who can see pragmatically that the markets often cannot or will not regulate themselves and at that point the “invisible” hand does not work so a more visible hand needs to step in.
*******I agree with you on this part, Coyote Blue. I do think that the government does need to regulate some things. I cannot make the leap to Libertarianism.
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HRW-
The Article: Special Canada Day Report: How Canada stole the American Dream
The numbers are in. Compared to the U.S., we work less, live longer, enjoy better health and have more sex. And get this: now we’re wealthier too.
What a sobering read for us Americans. Congratulations on your country’s great success! Proud to have you as a neighbor.
Can we borrow some money to pay for our neo-con mess?
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I’m not sure exactly who I’d blame for the mess we are in right now, but I wouldn’t blame it on unfettered capitalism but rather certain defects in the system that do not accord with traditional free market principles. Lew Rockwell, for instance, blames it on Fiat Currency and notes going off the gold standard practically guaranteed this. Not sure I agree with that but we should keep it in mind.
Neal Bortz notes that government may have seriously contributed to the problem by encouraging (read COERCING) banks to “ease” their traditional lending standards to fight problems with “redlining” which Bortz argues were non-existent (long story short: Yes blacks and the poor were denied loans more often, but if you did the right controls you see it was because of non-discriminatory rational reasons). Again, I’m not sure.
But I do know one thing, if the wall street fatcats who screwed this up want to be bailed out, they should have to pay big time for it. GOVERNMENT should now own these bailed out firms (as government does with 80% of AIG) and in the meantime this is one big boon for democratic socialism. Now Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader get to see their ideas put into action: Government will now own and run a much larger share of the means of production just as the democratic socialists desire.
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The Bushie Plan:
Privatize the profits, Socialize the losses. Just trust us.
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Barack Obama: Principles for the Nationalization of Mortgage Finance
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No blank check. If we grant the Treasury broad authority to address the immediate crisis, we must insist on independent accountability and oversight. Given the breach of trust we have seen and the magnitude of the taxpayer money involved, there can be no blank check.
*
Rescue requires mutual responsibility. As taxpayers are asked to take extraordinary steps to protect our financial system, it is only appropriate to expect those institutions that benefit to help protect American homeowners and the American economy. We cannot underwrite continued irresponsibility, where CEOs cash in and our regulators look the other way. We cannot abet and reward the unconscionable practices that triggered this crisis. We have to end them.
*
Taxpayers should be protected. This should not be a handout to Wall Street. It should be structured in a way that maximizes the ability of taxpayers to recoup their investment. Going forward, we need to make sure that the institutions that benefit from financial insurance also bear the cost of that insurance.
*
Help homeowners stay in their homes. This crisis started with homeowners and they bear the brunt of the nearly unprecedented collapse in housing prices. We cannot have a plan for Wall Street banks that does not help homeowners stay in their homes and help distressed communities.
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A global response. As I said on Friday, this is a global financial crisis and it requires a global solution. The United States must lead, but we must also insist that other nations, who have a huge stake in the outcome, join us in helping to secure the financial markets.
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Main Street, not just Wall Street. The American people need to know that we feel as great a sense of urgency about the emergency on Main Street as we do the emergency on Wall Street. That is why I call on Senator McCain, President Bush, Republicans and Democrats to join me in supporting an emergency economic plan for working families – a plan that would help folks cope with rising gas and food prices, save one million jobs through rebuilding our schools and roads, help states and cities avoid painful budget cuts and tax increases, help homeowners stay in their homes, and provide retooling assistance to help ensure that the fuel-efficient cars of the future are built in America.
*
Build a regulatory structure for the 21st Century. While there is not time in a week to remake our regulatory structure to prevent abuses in the future, we should commit ourselves to the kind of reforms I have been advocating for several years. We need new rules of the road for the 21st Century economy, together with the means and willingness to enforce them.
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John Rowe — two of the biggest culprits are former Sen Phil Gramm et al for banking and financial deregulation and Alan Greenspan for his promotion until recently of debt default swaps as a wonderful way to manage risk and allocate capital. John McCain didn’t actually pull the trigger, but he cheered them on as they wounded the future productivity of the American economy.
We’re seeing the end of American dominance of the world financial markets. Just as we lost manufacturing, we’ve lost the power to make markets and provide liquidity. It’s a tragedy for our workers.
As of today, government practically owns America’s financial industry, but this wasn’t the hostile takeover of your nightmares. The financial sector turned itself in and indentured itself to a master. This is a libertarian transaction. We need to make it a humiliating experience for marketeers — the government can be a capitalist too. While we’re at it, we should take some equity for the loans the auto industry needs in order to survive.
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Most democrats are socialists but Obama goes way beyond that.
And most Republicans are fascists, but McCain goes way beyond that. He’s a fascist warmonger.
If conservative Christians can engage in mudslinging with the blessing of Christ, I’d say it’s ok for all us to do it.
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Anlir, so what do you think of this piece of trash, was this OK?
Palin family ‘incest’ joked about on NBC
‘Saturday Night Live’ skit suggests husband of VP candidate has sex with own daughters
?
‘Saturday Night Live’
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Absolutely it’s ok. The CCR’s and Republicans have shown us that anything goes, so we don’t buy the fake moral outrage.
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Vicky Dear-
Thanks for bringing up the important subject of sexual assault. One that Sarah Palin has a failing record on. (Your link doesn’t have the skit so I can’t comment on it.)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Interesting facts for you:
Alaska has 6 times the national average of reported child sexual assault.
In 3 out of 4 reported cases, the victim knew the offender, the most commonly reported type of sexual abuse is a father who commits incest with his daughter–usually the eldest daughter.
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I should have linked. I’m sorry.
Alaska has 6 times the national average of reported child sexual assault.
In 3 out of 4 reported cases, the victim knew the offender, the most commonly reported type of sexual abuse is a father who commits incest with his daughter–usually the eldest daughter.
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Search warrant in Palin hacking investigation.
http://www.wbir.com/news/breaking/story.aspx?storyid=64033&catid=29
“The FBI is stepping up its investigation into the possibility that a University of Tennessee student hacked into the personal e-mail of Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin.
A person who identified himself as a witness tells 10 News that agents with the FBI served a federal search warrant at the Fort Sanders residence of David Kernell early Sunday morning. Kernell lives in the Commons apartment complex at 1115 Highland Ave.
David Kernell is the son of Mike Kernell, a Democratic state representative from Memphis.”
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Vicky Dear,
You will recall that John McCain makes jokes about rape victims. You know. the one in the papers and in the news about the lady who was brutally raped by a gorilla and left for dead? He thought it was funny, and his punchline was that she woke up in the hospital and asked for the gorilla. Presumably so she could be raped again? Women love them some rape, in John McCain’s world.
Sarah Palin also has her rape issues. Under her mayorship Wasilla charged the vicitms of rape to collect the evidence of the crime. Is this because she thinks women enjoy it? Outrageous, I agree. Perhaps she has a reason for not wanting rape victims to press charges? I don’t know. What are your thoughts, dear?
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Just doin’ some diggin’. My curiousity is peaked. I went to a website called terryfrankdotnet. There’s an article about the gentleman in the hacker story above in #93. 2 people in the comment section are alleging and apparently showing a connection between David Kernell and Obama campaign manager David Plouffe. Now that would be damaging news for Obama. I’m goin’ diggin’.
http://terryfrank.net/?p=3591
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Well, McCain and “SnowJob SquareGlasses” well represent the longstanding attitude of Republicans of blaming the rape victim for their rape. Thus, they saw nothing wrong with charging rape victims for the rape kits and making jokes about rape.
McCain/”SnowJob SquareGlasses”: Because America hasn’t suffered enough!
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Can’t find much. We’ll have to wait and see. If there’s a connection, it’ll be found.
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If there’s a connection, it’ll be found.
And if not, it’ll be claimed anyway.
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When one is assaulted and goes to the hospital for treatment, who pays for the treatment? The victim, or his insurance, perhaps eventually the culprit.
What’s with the rape kit? We all know a perp can be be determined from a (how old?) semen deposit on a blue dress, so what more is needed in a rape kit than a cotton swab, a baggie to put it in, and a label?
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John: The rape kit is key evidence gathering for a case. You need DNA, and if the perp was not considerate enough to leave samples elsewhere, that’s how you get them.
Are you seriously suggesting a teenage girl who has been raped should be billed for the investigation? The rape kit isn’t medical care, it’s criminal investigation. And it has to be done fairly fast in order to be of use.
What the rape kit actually consists of or whether it has to cost as much as it does could perhaps be debated; but no compassionate person should suggest for a second that the victim should get the bill.
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John Denney- “When one is assaulted and goes to the hospital for treatment, who pays for the treatment? The victim, or his insurance, perhaps eventually the culprit.”
Yes. Same with assaults, and car crashes. Who pays for the police investigation when a crime has been committed? Do we charge a murder victim’s estate for collecting evidence?
Holy non sequitur — John Denney!
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Too true, SteveG 198
The Palinites are scrambling to cover for her running a shadow government like Bush and Cheney. I looked through AJ’s wingnut conspiracy, and it’s a stretch
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Rape is a very serious crime. Ask a rape victim.
Why do John McCain and Sarah Palin laugh at them and make them pay for police investigations?
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re: #13
Jon Rowe,
Strikes me there is a false dichotomy, either revealed theology or natural theology.
Orthodox Christianity has elements of both. God has revealed Himself to mankind on many occasions, many of which are recorded in the Bible. However, the Bible also contains verses that appeal to natural theology:
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made . . .” – Romans 1:20
“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” – Psalm 19:1
Of interest is Acts 17:22ff, Paul’s address to the Athenians on Mars Hill, in which he quotes their own poets in verse 28, “‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’”
The Athenians had apparently developed some natural theology.
Plato’s “Republic” speaks of one God, which is a bit of a surprise, considering the array of Greek gods. Did Plato derive his one God from natural theology? Or did he get it from the sailors of Solomon’s fleets? Natural or revealed? Or both, if there is sufficient overlap and the revealed answers gaps in the natural?
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John whistles past the graveyard……really fast, because 11% of rape victims in Alaska are men just like him. Hopefully he’s not a kid, then his odds would go way up.
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Is there a gunshot kit? A stabbing kit? A blunt trauma kit?
Jim Lear, inventor of the Lear jet, had a design principle, “if it doesn’t exist, it can’t break.”
A corollary would be that if it doesn’t exist, no one has to pay for it.
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John,
Do you understand how semen comes to be in the rape victim? Do you understand how it is recovered? It isn’t exactly like taking fingerprints.
Which brings us to this. Do you feel a shooting victim should have to pay for the ballistics evidence to be collected? If not, why not?
We are all in trouble if John’s thinking is typical of Palinoligists.
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I should back up.
John Denney,
Do you think rape is a crime?
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Actually Victoria, the skit did a pretty good job of showing the lack of honesty and liberal bias of the MSM when dealing with conservative politicians. I can honestly see this happening.
“The skit featured a photo of one reporter and an on-screen message that stated, “In 2009 [reporter] Howland Gwathmey Moss, V was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his Times series on unproven, yet un-disproven incest in the Palin family. Sadly, he was to die 3 months later, run over by a snow machine, driven by a polar bear.”
The final shot showed an image of a New York Times page, with headlines that included:
“While No Direct Evidence of Incest in Palin Family Emerges, Counter Evidence Remains Agonizingly Elusive” and “In a Small Alaska Town, Doubts Still Linger.”"
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David Kernell is the son of Mike Kernell, a Democratic state representative from Memphis.”
Interesting, but not surprising. David (and Anlir) and their ilk apparently think the end justifies the means.
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John Denney at #206: Wow.
“Rape kit” is the name for the evidence collection tools used to identify and later convict the rapist. Here is an article about it.
It exists.
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outkast post 162,
it would seem that reading lessons are in order.
I do not believe I said Will represented the conservative wing of the Republicans.
I noted that Will will at least define socialism with a useful operational definition. The conservatives on this blog seem unable to.
And as I note, if one can not explain what one means by a word, it suggests that that they litterally do not know what they are talking about.
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llama post 164,
since ou have provided no definition of Marxist, I will provide a classic characteristic of Marxism which can be used as an operational definition:
Marxists traditionally argue for an end of the historical dialectic with the rise of communism.
Since Obama clearly does not accept this tenet, it is also clear that Obama is not a Marxist.
I suggest you provide an alternative definition of Marxism with demonstration that Obama satisfies it, or admit that you realy don’t know what you are talking about.
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outkast post 181,
sure the fundamentals are fine.
That is why the entire credit market appears to have seized and short of swift action of some sort, it appears that we will have a falling of dominos.
Keep whistling in the dark.
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Correct, HRW, the fundamentals of the U.S. economy are still fine, and there’s till no reason for panic or whining. Senator McCain was correct when he made that statement, and his comment still holds true.
Our free-market economy will correct itself, as it always does.
Outkast – if the market fundamentals are fine and our free-market economy will correct itself, then why does the government need to inject billions into the financial system for months, then finally bailout the financial sector with our tax dollars?
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Lumps,
Our friends in Hollywood had James Coburn winsomely describe rape as “assault with a friendly weapon” in the movie “Waterhole #3″. My first hit on Google for the movie was this site, which gives it a 5 star rating. Comedy with James Coburn and Carroll O’Connor – gotta be great, right?
SteveG,
Perhaps I was unclear. Yes, I know rape kits exist. I was asking if gunshot, knife wound, and blunt trauma kits exist on the shelf with the rape kits.
Imagine this scenario: Billy and Susie are out on a date and a thug knocks Billy on the head, shoots him, and stabs him, then rapes Susie. Billy is tough, though, and survives. At the hospital, is evidence collected from Billy using a gunshot kit, a knife wound kit, and a blunt trauma kit at taxpayer expense, while Susie has evidence collected using the rape kit at her own expense?
I’m guessing there is no kit for Billy; that the doctor just reports his observations to the police, so that, in effect, that “evidence collection” is an incidental part of his medical treatment, paid for by Billy or Billy’s insurance.
You’re appalled the victim is charged for a rape kit; I’m appalled the cost of a rape kit is even an issue. Swabs, baggies, labels, urine container – what, a couple bucks? A hospital already has those things in bulk anyway, don’t they? What would a doctor do with a pistol slug he pulled out of Billy?
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John — is this compassionate conservatism in action??
I’m sure the additional forensic examination of Billy’s wounds are not covered by any health care insurance firm and he’s not billed for it; the state covers it. If Billy would die from his woulds then the state would cover his autopsy not his life or health insurance policy and not his estate. To suggest that victims of violent crime pay for evidence collection is not a good law and order policy/
Of course, this whole argument could be avoided if health care was also covered by the state but that would be socialism. And socialized health care is just too expense for the US. After all, the gov’t needs to take care of the rich. Socialism for the rich and user fees for the rest.
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HRW,
One of the founding principles of America is NOT that the government takes care of us; used to be Americans didn’t need or want a nanny. Used to be we had more common sense, too, the kind that fuels the “can do” attitude that can take on a task outside one’s job description.
I am not suggesting victims pay for evidence collection. I’m saying the doctors and nurses are witnesses who could easily provide evidence to the police with inexpensive supplies already at hand.
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John — and that will sway a jury raised on CSI?, when alerted by the defense that the prosecutor and police failed to use the best means possible to collect evidence, the case will be tanked. Would you fail to conduct a proper autopsy in a murder investigation? Why go cheap on a rape investigation?
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HRW,
Will that sway a jury raised on CSI? I would think the prosecutor’s final question to the jury would be, “Remembering that a sitting president of the United States of America was proven a liar with far less sophisticated evidence collection techniques, do we want the defendant loose in our community, based on this evidence provided by the doctors and nurses of our community?”
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John Denney: One of the founding principles of America is NOT that the government takes care of us; used to be Americans didn’t need or want a nanny.
Investigating crimes is not being a “nanny.”
You are actually arguing that in the case of rape, the government should try to make cases with far less evidence than it could have, to save a few hundred dollars.
In suggesting that doctors and nurses could provide the evidence, you’re obviously ignorant of the concept of chain of custody.
In trials, it’s extremely important to be able to document that the evidence being presented is precisely the same as was collected. You need to show an unbroken chain from the initial collection of the evidence, through storing it (that’s why evidence rooms need meticulous record-keeping systems), analyzing it, transporting it, etc.
Doctors and nurses are not trained in forensic investigation, nor should they be having to think about that when trying to treat a scared, injured woman. That’s the job of the police.
Doctors and nurses, by the way, don’t do that with other crime victims either. A doctor might testify to treating a gunshot victim, but you’ll need a ballistics expert to explain how the wounds allow him to know where the shooter was at the time of the attack.
Whether you are uncaring or just clueless I’m not sure, but the existence of the rape kit is not some kind of scam, as you seem to think.
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John Denney, clueless: “Remembering that a sitting president of the United States of America was proven a liar with far less sophisticated evidence collection techniques, do we want the defendant loose in our community, based on this evidence provided by the doctors and nurses of our community?”
Actually, John, the President was shown to be a liar because the FBI did a DNA test … exactly what a rape kit allows, with documentation.
Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, but do yourself a favor and stop.
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John, Clinton’s guilt was proven because the FBI did a DNA test on the semen … exactly what a rape kit allows investigators to do, with documentation.
They were not “far less sophisticated evidence collection techniques” at all. They were, in fact, the same techniques, except that since the sample was on fabric and Lewinski was not a traumatized rape victim, the collection of it may have been a bit easier.
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SteveG,
My “nanny” comment was a response to HRW’S final paragraph about socialism in post 217.
Yes, I am clueless. That’s why I’m asking questions. In the imaginary scenario I described at post 216, I asked if there were trauma kits for Billy.
Apparently not.
I’m well aware that a DNA test was done on the infamous stain on the blue dress.
Are you telling me a doctor is so clueless he could not preserve a semen sample taken from a victim? That he’s dumber than Monica, who was able to preserve her sample?
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Speaking of “clueless” (an I am not referring to loyalists or rebels here, but people who post in general:
1) It is clueless, for the most part, to think that one changes the mind of anyone else in an on line discussion by posting a message. I have yet to see anyone change their mind about any serious controversial issue after several years of reading wmb.
Has anyone had their mind changed on any serious issue? If you have, email me at eman_modnar@yahoo.com with the details. I will summarize, but not post any identifying information about you.
2) With that general statement in mind, one is singularly unlikely to change the mind of another person by posting insulting statements and verbiage as part of a message addressed to another reader. Although I insult people all the time in my comments, in part because I can and in part because I am not under the illusion that I am changing anyone’s mind about anything, I am continually amazed at how many people seem to think they are going to change minds by insulting each other.
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