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An 'urgency': Sensing threats to institutions of society, church leaders make declaration 
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Litigious atheists and agnostics
What do President Bush, Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle, White House press secretary Dana Perino, and James Dobson’s wife, Shirley, have in common? They’ve all been named in a suit filed today in U.S. district court in Madison, Wisc., by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. This group of atheists and agnostics claim that proclaiming an annual National Day of Prayer creates a “hostile environment for nonbelievers, who are made to feel as if they are political outsiders.” Let me ask the nonbelievers who frequent this blog: Do you honestly feel threatened by our president calling Christians to gather together once a year to pray for God’s blessing on our nation?
Thankfully, suits by groups such as the Freedom From Religion Foundation usually don’t gain much traction in the courts. If they did we Christians might find ourselves like our brothers and sisters in China who have to go underground.
back to top63 Comments to “Litigious atheists and agnostics”
Let me ask you this: how would you feel if the U.S. president asked the country to come together and pray for Allah’s blessing on this nation? Would you feel threatened? That’s how these folks view Christianity and Christians.
As an aside, “not having a national day of prayer” is a far, far cry from what Chinese believers have to endure. It’s almost offensive to put them in the same category.
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Well Mickey, I don’t feel threatened, but I do feel insulted. Why should our government single out Christian faith as the one to honor by a “national day” in a pluralistic society that celebrates freedom of religion?
Comment #1 is directly on point too.
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It seems very petty. Oh the mean old agnostics don’t want us to have a national day to celebrate OUR religion, even though WE don’t want national days to celebrate any other religion. Waaah.
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Oh, I hadn’t read this part closely enough: Thankfully, suits by groups such as the Freedom From Religion Foundation usually don’t gain much traction in the courts. If they did we Christians might find ourselves like our brothers and sisters in China who have to go underground.
Are you serious? The point of litigation like this is simple church/state separation. Let’s not have the government endorse one religion over others.
Are you actually comparing that to real persecution of believers who have to worship in secret to avoid being imprisoned or worse? Good grief, Mickey. Buddy Glass says “It’s almost offensive to put them in the same category.” I say, strike the “almost,” replace it with “extremely.”
You’re comparing your cut finger to someone else’s beheading and acting as if they’re not that much different. You really should be embarrassed, but I doubt you are.
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Just to be clear: I don’t have a problem with the national day of prayer and feel like those bringing this suit should get over themselves.
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“The National Day of Prayer is observed in the United States on May 1, 2008. It is held on the first Thursday of May each year, inviting people of all faiths to pray for the nation and its leaders. National Day of Prayer also falls on the same day as Law Day and Loyalty Day in the USA in 2008.”
BUDDYGLASS, I see nothing in here that says you can’t pray to allah if that is who you usually pray to.
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“Let’s not have the government endorse one religion over others.”
“people of all faiths”
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“The National Day of Prayer is observed in the United States on May 1, 2008. It is held on the first Thursday of May each year, inviting people of all faiths to pray for the nation and its leaders. National Day of Prayer also falls on the same day as Law Day and Loyalty Day in the USA in 2008.”
That is indeed true, but Mrs Dobson heads the “The National Day of Prayer Task Force”, with the intended purpose of coordinating events specifically for evangelical Christians for the National Day of Prayer.
What was the “The National Prayer Committee” doing creating a non-governmental organization like “The National Day of Prayer Task Force” to promote one religion’s praying over the others? Surely that is abosolutely contrary to the spirit of the NDOP? See first paragraph.
And oh boy!, didn’t James Dobson blur the distinction between the NDOP and this idiotic “Task Force” on his cult’s show?
Listening to old Dobbo, you would think that Shirley was in charge of the whole darn deal.
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The National Day of Prayer Task Force is a private organization and has no recognized standing with any governmental body.
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I agree that this clearly isn’t China. Likewise I don’t believe government should ever do something that excludes our atheist and agnostic (or polytheistic) citizens and makes them feel like outsider. But I’m not sure if this is actionable under the original meaning of the US Constitution. I’m also confused as to the public or private status of the National Day of Prayer Task Force.
Finally, I would note though the key Founders — the first 4 Presidents — weren’t “Christians” as this site defines and understands the term, they were men of prayer and offered public prayers.
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KBells: I have no problem with a religious group organizing its own day of prayer among its adherents. Mickey’s paranoia nonwithstanding, I have no desire to drive Christianity underground.
I have a slight problem with an official government day of prayer because even if you specify “all faiths,” you are excluding people who don’t have a faith, and you are also excluding people who belong to faiths that don’t pray in the same way Christians, Jews and Muslims do. But it is, truly, only a slight problem. I don’t think it’s necessary, but I don’t see it as especially harmful either.
BUT: I have a more serious problem with the co-opting of the NDOP by the Dobson people because, as #8 ably points out, it blurs the distinction between what the government is endorsing and what it is not.
The bottom line is that I don’t need my government having any role in my religion. I will pray when I want to and how I want to and for what I want to. I don’t need a day set aside to “encourage” me to do so. And since it is ripe for both abuse and litigation, what does it really accomplish?
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If only liberals/leftys knew history….and weren’t so selfish.
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Guess this means the next thing to go will be Thanksgiving.
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You know what the American Indians say about Thanksgiving: Thanks for nothing.
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Living in a country with numerous legal and gov’t references to an anonymous diety, I have very little problem with such a proclamation. The Christian characteristics of the past have left such references and it’s up to to the people and the gov’t on how to treat it. However, its implementation in the US does raise eyebrows as it, from the tenor of the conversation here, seems to integrate evangelical Christianity with the gov’t proclaimed day.
If such a proclamation is all encompassing and embraces diversity, the national day of prayer will become nothing more than a bland gov’t nod to religion. If believers want their faith to be treated in such a patronizing manner, far be it from me to stop it.
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Add Klasko to the paranoia pool.
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NJLawyer: Liberals know history. Conservatives revise it.
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Both sides play games with history.
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Regarding Thanksgiving: You know what is taught in the schools today. The Pilgrims were thankful to Squanto and the other Indians and wanted to show them how grateful they were. So they planned a big dinner and invited the Indians.
Can we go back to the Franklin quote at the Constitutional Convention? “If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground w/o His notice, can a nation rise w/o his aid? I propose that prayer be held each day….” Okay, rough paraphrase, but you get the gist. This nation was birthed in prayer. Wonder what would happen if each day started in government today with the same attitude?
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Do keep in mind that the CC ignored Franklin’s official call for prayer. But I take the point that Franklin et al. were “men of prayer.”
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The Radical Agnostics have declared today the Day of the Drama Queen. Everyone is required to lament and gnash their teeth.
Four-year-old Random Granddaughter will lead the lamentation. As long as it is done before her bedtime, and someone reads her a story after the lamentation.
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Steve – I don’t think I’m being paranoid. Thanksgiving is a federal holiday, and has been for many years. Since I was a child in a not particularly Christian (Christian in name only) family, I was taught that the idea behind Thanksgiving is giving thanks to God. This view was backed up in public scool, but that was when we went to church school on Wednesdays in public school and had prayers in public school. Until some minority opinion made a big hairy deal out of it, and those things disappeared from public schools. A case of the few forcing their will on the many. They got their inch and they are going for the mile.
If the Freedom From Religion Foundation wants to do away with the National Day of Prayer observances, which admittedly are observed by mostly the religious, what’s to stop them from making an effort to do away with the national day of Thanksgiving that most people in this country, religious or otherwise, observe every November? What’s so paranoid about seeing a predictable trend? Or is it too secular a holiday for them to worry about?
No – this isn’t China, but people of religion are trading places with homosexuals in the public square right here in America. Homosexuals are coming out into the public square, and certain groups of people would prefer that we take our religion an “put it in the closet where it belongs.” They would like nothing better to cause us to hide our light under a bushel in the public square. The FFRF would like to free everyone from religion. They have not resorted to violent meaans, but they have resorted to other means to squelch religious voices. They are NOT for freedom of religion, they want to do away with it altogether, and they will go about doing it by degrees because we’ve already seen it. Paranoia? No, a look at the historical trends.
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Klasko: Thanksgiving is not a specifically religious observance. There is a religious element to it, both historically and in practice, but it is not necessary to share the religious belief to take part. Christmas is another such example, where there are religious roots (pagan and Christian both) but no need to share the religion in order to celebrate the day.
A National Day of Prayer, on the other hand, is specifically religious. If you don’t pray, you have no need to notice the day even exists. (And it’s not just atheists and agnostics in that category … pagans, Buddhists, Hindus and other faith strands don’t pray in the way the monotheistic believers do, and with Dobson’s people co-opting the NDOP for Christian-specific observations, even its official “people of all faiths” applicability gets diminished for Jews and Muslims.)
Why do you imagine the FFRF would have any concern over holidays that are not specifically about government endorsement of religion?
Your comparison of homosexuals is not germane. Homosexuality isn’t a religion. But I also doubt that Christians are being forced out of the public square. The only thing that is of concern is the use of government funding and power to promote religion.
I think you’re probably right about the FFRF’s desires. They are pretty militant. But they do not have the law, public opinion or anything else on their side on anything other than government endorsement.
So bottom line, no, I really think you have no need to worry about Thanksgiving.
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Homosexuals are coming out into the public square, and certain groups of people would prefer that we take our religion an “put it in the closet where it belongs.”
How about this? Homosexuals and conservative Christians get equal rights to be who they are in the public square and are entitled to equal respect.
I wouldn’t even have a problem with celebrating America’s “Christian Heritage.” The problem that I have with the Christian heritage movement is not that America doesn’t have a “Christian Heritage”; it does. It’s that America also has a pagan, secular, and freethinking heritage that was every bit as important to its Founding. So if we celebrate America’s Christian or “Judeo-Christian” Foundations, we should also celebrate its secular, freethinking and pagan Foundations as well.
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We are guaranteed freedom of religion ~~ not freedom from religion.
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No, liberals do not know history. If they knew history, if they understood the Constitution, they would know that there is nothing wrong with a National Day of Prayer. God has never been excluded from the daily life of Americans, and the government has ALWAYS acknowledged God.
It is leftys who want to change America — and make it dead just like Europe. Stop trying to take rights away that have always been there.
What Dread Pirate Robert said.
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And there is nothing evangelical about the National Day of Prayer. All may participate. It is not the fault of evangelicals if they are the ones who are predominant in their gratitude towards God and participate the most.
This leftist desire to control people is appalling.
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Labor Day is exclusivist, and creates a hostile environment for millions of lazy slackers.
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Those who object: You have a problem mwith a day when people of all faiths collectively pray for our nation and its leaders? Gee wiz!!
It’s a conspiracy! Those who are inclined to pray can participate that those who are not so inclined can’t live and let live. No, we have to squelch all of that praying stuff. Even though those who pray have the good of the country and the good of the leaders in mind as the collective focus of their prayers. No one is compelled to participate but you want to compel those who are so inclined to cease and desist.
Would you all be offended if someone wanted to pray for your wellbeing? I don’t get it.
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Dread Pirate Robert: We are guaranteed freedom of religion ~~ not freedom from religion.
A glib and old saying, but completely false. If the freedom of religion does not include the freedom to have none, it is not a real freedom.
NJLawyer: “Leftys” in general are not trying to do anything. The FFRF is a small group with a narrow focus and hardly represents all liberals. I personally don’t care if there is a National Day of Prayer, as long as I’m free to observe it or ignore it as I please. However, I do think our government should not give the appearance of endorsing particular religions over others.
And if there were a government-endorsed National Day of Magic for witches and pagans to work magic on behalf of their country and government, I bet you would suddenly see the light on the importance of keeping government and religion separate.
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Solution: change the name to “National Day of Prayer and Meditation”. Voila. Even non-theists can meditate.
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“If the freedom of religion does not include the freedom to have none, it is not a real freedom. ”
Who is trying to stop you from having no religion?
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yeah- I’m with 32
I say we make it fair and have a national day of refuse-to-know-nothing-ness and follow it with a day of pro-anti-ness.
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and sing famous agnostic and anti-theist tunes
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SteveG. According to your logic people who use their freedom of speech are an affront to those who prefer to be quiet.
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KBells: I was responding to #25, in which Dread Pirate Robert repeated a well-worn, wrongheaded saying. My comment was strictly in disagreement with that thought — the idea that religious freedom doesn’t include the freedom to not take part in religious observance.
I don’t know how you get your comment in #35 out of that.
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nd if there were a government-endorsed National Day of Magic for witches and pagans to work magic on behalf of their country and government, I bet you would suddenly see the light on the importance of keeping government and religion separate.
It’s called Halloween. I know it’s not a national holiday, but public schools observe it.
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KBells: Halloween is not celebrated as a religious observance. It’s a fun day for dress-up and candy and ghost stories. It’s entirely secular. And thanks to Christians, it’s usually called something like “Harvest Festival” when schools do anything (which ironically takes it back closer to its pagan roots … Hallowe’en is “All Hallows Eve,” the Christianized version of Samhain that the church made the eve of All Saints Day.)
You cannot credibly equate a day for costumes and candy with solemn day of prayer. It’s not even close.
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StaveG 36. that saying does not mean you don’t the freedom not to be religious, it means you are not going to be free of occasionally being exposed to the religious freedom of others. .
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From Religious Tolerance.org. Many Neo-Pagans, including Druids and Wiccans, trace their annual seasonal days of celebration back to Celtic times in Europe. They celebrate the most important of their four major Sabbats, Samhain, on or near OCT-31 each year.
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#39: Right, but nobody’s saying that. Even the FFRF is just going after the government sanction. The lawsuit isn’t about people praying, it’s about the federal government passing a law encouraging and endorsing the praying.
As I said, let the government pass a law encouraging and endorsing a national day of magic and see if you still think it’s so harmless. You don’t object to the NDOP because your own beliefs fit it.
So nobody’s asking for the kind of freedom “from” religion that means religious expression has to be invisible. Just the kind that means my government doesn’t lend the weight of its approval to certain religions and withholds it from others.
#40: Yes, that’s what I said. Hallowe’en, or All Hallows Eve, comes from Samhain. Christians designated it All Hallows Eve in order to co-opt the older pagan celebration. Christmas and Easter are the same (from Yule and Eostre.)
However, if you’re seriously trying to suggest that children wearing costumes to school on Hallowe’en is a religious observance like the National Day of Prayer is, you’re out on a very thin limb.
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DPR,
As you wish….
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And there is nothing evangelical about the National Day of Prayer. All may participate. It is not the fault of evangelicals if they are the ones who are predominant in their gratitude towards God and participate the most.
And there is nothing gay about National Homosexual Day. All may participate. Its not the fault of gays if they are the ones who are predominate in their gratitude and participate the most.
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43. The difference is that in the public schools one would be mandatory and one would be illegal.
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Hey, I don’t know why the FFR guys have to gripe. There are 364 other days of the year to choose from if they wanna start up their own Nation Day of Not Praying…. Get over it.
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Freedom of Religion means that you are free to practice your religion without fear of persecution… And I don’t know how anyone can deny that militant evangelical atheists are out to shut down all religion by any means available.
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I think the idea is we have not only religious liberty but religious equality which implies equal citizenship or equal respect. This idea of equality has often been the driver behind “separation of church & state” but it need not always lead to “separation” or a “naked public square” as a result. Rather it could just as easily lead to “you get your day of Christian prayer and the next day we have our rights to celebrate paganism.”
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SteveG #41:
If I lived in a country where Wicca were the dominant religion and the govt. decided to have a natl. day of magic, honestly, I probably wouldn’t freak out about it. Like it or not, monotheism is the prevailing view in the U.S. As long as the govt. isn’t spending any *money* on the NDOP, then it doesn’t seem worth getting too upset about.
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Can we sue Congress? Seriously, until this case I didn’t know it was possible. I’d like a class action suit to sue Congress for $700 billion. Anybody with me?
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Make It Man: And I don’t know how anyone can deny that militant evangelical atheists are out to shut down all religion by any means available.
How so?
Can you point to even one example where anyone has tried to stop any religious expression that was not a matter of church/state separation?
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BuddyGlass at #48: If I lived in a country where Wicca were the dominant religion and the govt. decided to have a natl. day of magic, honestly, I probably wouldn’t freak out about it. Like it or not, monotheism is the prevailing view in the U.S. As long as the govt. isn’t spending any *money* on the NDOP, then it doesn’t seem worth getting too upset about.
I kind of agree with that, and you notice I’m not exactly rushing to stand with the FFRF here. But I do seriously question why the government needs to officially recognize a day that serves only a religious purpose.
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When I was in high school (the sixth of six public high schools in three states I attended), each Friday, the principal would read a Bible verse over the school PA system during home room.
Those were the good old days. Though even then, our country was corrupt. If we had been purer, he would have read them every day of the week, instead of just one day a week.
Now, children have to pray by themselves in public school.
A lot of people reading this message are nodding.
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I agree with SteveG’s comments. I too have no problem with a NDOP, just the government officially promoting it. Also, it’s not just that other religions are excluded from participation, but that other Christian groups are excluded from the official NDOP. It’s controlled and run by (and for) a small faction within Christianity (conservative Christian Republicans). Mainstream Christians, moderate Christians, and liberal Christians are just as unwelcome as Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or any other faith group.
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Serious George: Labor Day is exclusivist, and creates a hostile environment for millions of lazy slackers.
LOL!!!
Random Name summed it up pretty well: The Radical Agnostics have declared today the Day of the Drama Queen. Everyone is required to lament and gnash their teeth.
As far as a “National Day of Prayer to Allah”, if I lived in Turkey or some other predominantly Muslim nation and they did something like that, I wouldn’t feel threatened by it.
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“It’s controlled and run by (and for) a small faction within Christianity (conservative Christian Republicans). Mainstream Christians, moderate Christians, and liberal Christians are just as unwelcome as Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or any other faith group.”
In what way?
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Steve G ~~
What I said maybe an oldie but it is a goodie. And it is true. If you don’t want to have a religion ~~ no one is stopping you. I’m not and no one I know is.
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Finite beings cannot be “free from (or of) religion.” That’s because religion is “a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor,” according to Webster’s. If Christians stood by that definition, then the Freedom From Religion Foundation would look like the pot calling the kettle, “black.” To which atheists will reply with their best reasoning, “I know you are, but what am I?”
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Matt Y: As far as a “National Day of Prayer to Allah”, if I lived in Turkey or some other predominantly Muslim nation and they did something like that, I wouldn’t feel threatened by it.
If you live in a country where a specific religion is endorsed by the government, it’s a different situation. In America, it’s not supposed to be that way. We should have equal freedom for any and all religions, not a government-sponsored day to honor some and not others.
It’s not about feeling “threatened.” It’s about what the country is supposed to be vs. what it sometimes is.
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Follow-on thought to #58: If a group of churches or a denomination or an organization like Focus on the Family wants to organize a day of prayer on their own, no atheist or agnostic except maybe the crankiest ones would raise an objection. The sole issue here is the federal government endorsement.
You folks want to pretend it’s general hostility to religion, but it’s not.
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#10, Jon Rowe wrote; “I would note though the key Founders — the first 4 Presidents — weren’t “Christians” as this site defines and understands the term…”
This is nonsense.
1. I love this site, but it does not have the final say on what Christianity is or on who really is or isn’t Christian.
2. Jon Rowe’s rash hard-line judgmentalism is irresponsible both intellectually and spiritually.
3. The key Founders were diverse, spiritually.
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Sorry Joel, but this is an evangelical website and I know how evangelicals define “Christianity” — strictly according to its Trinitarian orthodoxy. You either believe in that or you aren’t a Christian regardless of whether you identify as one. Hence Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses identify as “Christians” but aren’t according to the way evangelicals see it. The same could be said of America’s first 4 Presidents (perhaps first 6 Presidents).
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Clue to Jon Rowe, evangelicals are diverse too. Stereotyping and categorizing people and/or groupsmay be fun for you, but it is unscholarly and it does not back up you judgmental claims.
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“Can you point to even one example where anyone has tried to stop any religious expression that was not a matter of church/state separation?”
Certainly. There are probably hundreds of cases won by the Rutherford institute that were not a matter of church/state separation- no matter how hard the prosecution tried – as evidenced by the outcome of the cases…
And what do you call the attack on religion by the published and outspoken Atheists like Christopher Hitchens, if it’s not a plea to shut down all religion.
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