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Today’s quote is from a first century Roman author: “Cruelty is fed, not weakened, by tears.”
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back to top93 Comments to “Whirled Views 10.6”
Publilius Syrus?
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Mornin’ friends. I’d appreciate prayers for my 7 year old. I’m taking him to be seen today–for about 10 days now, he’s been suffering from severe stomach “attacks”. Every time he tries to eat anything, within about 5 minutes, he just doubles over in pain. Thanks in advance…8*)
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Good morning all. This weekend I received one of those nasty little email likening Obama to the Anti-Christ. ( see I can be against him and not be ugly about it) . Anyway my intention is not to turn this into an is Obama the Anti-Christ thread, this is me admitting that I have become woefully ignorant of the Anti-Christ.
I remember being taught in school that the Anti-Christ would be a member of the Holy Roman Empire and the last piece of real estate that was the Holy Roman Empire was the Vatican so therefore the Anti-Christ would be one of the Popes…those Independent Methodists LOATHED the Catholics. As I have said before the study of Revelations terrifies me and make me have nightmares, but this is embarrassing not to know. Would you all care to contribute to my re-education?
Remember this is NOT about Obama it is about the Anti-Christ. Thanks in advance for being courteous.
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For what it’s worth, it seems like every president and most presidential candidates were thought to be the anti-christ by somebody, somewhere for as long as I can remember. I think my husband thinks it’s either Bill Gates or Nick Saban.
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The election/anti-Christ: Oy! (….But it occurs to me, someday, somebody’s going to be right about it.)
Mom of Four.: Prayed for your son. please keep us posted. I’m sorry he’s going through that. I hope it’s nothing serious. I take out my stress on my stomach sometimes. Maybe it’s that or a virus?
All:
Transition!! I can see why they named the most active stage of child birth labor “transition”!
Am (ironically) feeling the stress of this transition/move in my stomach.
I’m still trying to stage the house, etc. The part I like least is that my husband will go ahead, our separation time will be indefinite.
However… we just had the loveliest week ever together on a New England Cruise. It was bliss. What a gift and a blessing that was.
But… I wish I could blink and be on the other side of all of the work that lies ahead!!!!
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abuse is fed, not weakened, by submission
God didn’t leave the Israelites in Egypt to experience their right to suffer, He delivered them
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Maybe I’m being delivered from Egypt.
But… the bad news was: it was a 40 year transition!
(Oh! the stomach pains!)
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God made a really big deal out of deliverance!
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Hmm, I find that as I submit to Christ He strengthens me.
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Prayers for little guy done.
Prayers for home done.
I am interested in the discussion regarding Anti-Christ, too, but I agree it is not Obama.
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9-
That must mean Christ is not abusing you to begin with
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AKMom went on news blackout until after the election. See WV 10/4 end of thread.
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“But it occurs to me, someday, somebody’s going to be right about it.”
I think that kind of falls under the “A broken clock is right twice a day,” category.
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NJL, the end of the thread is me lamenting the disappearance of AKMom AND momoffour. But momoffour is back. She has my prayers.
The Antichrist is a subject I would like to discuss, but as the prior discussion of Revelation 6, this probably isn’t the place for it. Those of you who are interested might find a good discussion on TJ/Cameron blog under the subject “The Horse Thundrer”. (That may not be exactly it, but close enough.)
As I’ve said before, I suspect the man of sin will be smarter than this empty suit.
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I often agree with many people here, but for different reasons.
I think we are verging on destruction of civilization, but for secular nor religious reasons such as the anti-Christ.
I was just taking a look at the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and their famous “Doomsday Clock.”
http://www.thebulletin.org/content/doomsday-clock/timeline
They list the time to midnight, midnight being presumably when some nuclear or other disaster takes civilization out. It’s varied from 2 minutes to midnight to 17 minutes to midnight.
It’s just slipped back down a bit again to 5 minutes to midnight.
Your mileage will vary, of course, based on your own analysis, but it’s worth thinking about the concept even if you differ on the details where you know who lives.
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I’m no expert, but I know a couple of misconceptions about the AntiChrist. Usually, people conflate “antiChrist” and “Beast.” The have been many “anti-Christs,” as that term is used in Scripture. However, there is/was only one “Beast,” which is what Kim’s spam probably meant to call Obama.
No more detail from me, except to say that many, many people have thought for centuries that Nero was the Beast. Only very recently has this idea that the Beast is a future problem been dominant.
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Hey Chas, Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUEQz5dltmI. This is scary if you ask me.
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First things first today:
I’d like to announce the winner of last weekends “College Football Saturday” contest:
Peter L.!
He correctly guessed the results of 4 of the 5 games. This is his second win this season.
So Peter L., here is your hot off the campfire, warm, gooey, digital S’more – enjoy!
Look for this week’s contest on Friday’s “Whirled Views”.
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Once again I am suggesting the the “rebels” or “outliers,” those people who differ somewhat from the majority of participants here in religious, political, and other dimensions take a day off each week, a day I am calling “Tame Tuesday.” Last week one person participated; most did not.
I have several reasons for suggesting this. One is that participation in online forums such as this demonstrates addictive behavior. It took me a while to recognize it in myself. I’ve suggested that a key way to diagnose yourself is to see if you can provide a coherent and sensible reason why you participate.
Some of the noisiest and most aggressive Christians show the most visible signs of addictive behavior. On the other hand, quite a few of the Christians demonstrate that a) they have thought through reasons for participation and b) have learned to modify, control, and limit their own behavior in sensible ways.
I am not sure the rebels, as a group, are doing better than the Christians. Are you going to let them do better than you? They are already sure they are doing better than you.
A second reason is my hypothesis that conservative Christians define themselves and justify themselves by their opposition to the rebels. For example, many (on both sides) have come to recognize a possible truth in my tag “race to the bottom,” but when I tried to inspire a “race to the top,” it’s been greeted with apathy and indifference. In any case, I think it would be interesting if they didn’t have such readily available scapegoats and had to confront themselves a little more.
A third reason is that participants delude themselves that by engaging in flame wars and posting messages as if they were striking someone or throwing spears, they are fighting a noble battle and “holding off” or defeating an enemy. A day a week off from the “battle” will let you practice controlling your own behavior and give an opportunity to examine your motivations and perceptions.
Try it. You almost certainly won’t like it.
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Chas, if the Antichrist is indwelt by Satan, wouldn’t an empty suit be suitable?
For the record, I don’t think Obama is the Antichrist either.
In a related vein, here’s an observation I made on January 16, 2007: Suspicious Ole Me
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As I was wild and peculiar on Saturday and Sunday, I declare this Monday as “flame Random” without consequence Monday.
By this I mean that you can post any kind of attack or insult directed my way you want today, or even more deadly, ignore me entirely, and I won’t make fun of you.
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RN,
Jonathan Kirsh has written a book called “The Grand Iquisitor’s Manual.” He says, “Once the war on heresy was understood as an apocalyptical struggle between good and evil . . . then the end plainly justified the means. . . . Then as now, demonization of the victim is the necessary precondition of genocide.” But Wendy Smith, in her critique rightly calls Kirsh out on some of his mish mash on torture. Kirsh rightly blames religion for the Inquisition, but then throws Hitler’s and Stalin’s moments in the same pot (while igorning the French Revolution’s reign of terror). And not mentioning that it was people of faith who suffered greatest under the Inquisition.
What do you think of the spiritual aspects of genocide, both religious and atheistic? I could see gay rights becoming so idolized that it demonizes those who oppose it. And the individual rights and even lives becoming endangered by that demonization. Thoughts?
And of course that all just feeds my persecution complex;)
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RN at 19, I don’t think I am particularly a rebel or an outlier, but Tuesday is my busiest day of the week.
RN at 21, I wrote 22 while you were writing 21. No flames intended, it was a serious question. Well, except the last line.
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#9 (I think) in my series on Ben Kiernan’s book Blood and Soil, a history of genocide. Again, this is a topic where we can sometimes find some agreement although our motivations differ.
Not everyone needs to read the entire book. It’s 600 pages long. Some, like Adios, are already very aware of this problem. Some like KBells (with a small child to care for) have more important priorities. Some, like “they,” a quiet and admirable Christian who infrequently posts and infrequently emails me, find themselves too upset when they contemplate the horrors of human genocide and history.
After discussing the Spartans, Kiernan discusses Rome’s genocide against Carthage.
Kiernan writes, “The most famous incitement to genocide is probably Delenda est Carthago, or ‘Carthage must be destroyed!’ the words of the second-century B.C.E. Roman official Marcus Porcius Cato, the Censor.
“…this injunction ended every speech Cato made in the Senate ‘on any matter whatsoever…”
Good [bad] parts:
[Appian was a Greek historian with Roman citizenship. Kiernan quotes Appian on the end of a Roman campaign against Carthage led by Cato’s ally Scipio Aemilianus, where the Romans broke through the walls of Carthage…]
‘All places were filled with groans, shrieks, shouts, and every kind of agony. Some were stabbed; others were hurled alive from the roofs to the pavement, some of them falling on the heads of spears, or other pointed weapons, or swords…”
Then fires were set. “Then came new scenes of horror. The fire spread and carried everything down…”
Well, I’ll stop here. There’s more where this came from. The main point is that Cato, according to Kiernan, developed a lot of the ideology and rhetoric that underlay later genocidal activity and justification, in particular the Protestant Elizabethans as they massacred the Irish. (That story arrives in a little while.)
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If, as a Biblicist, I am to take the Bible at its word, the junior senator from Illinois is not the Anti-Christ. The book of Daniel tells us, he will be from European Decent.
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RN you…you…you…radical agnostic…you!
I have always been fascinated by the Holocaust and that man can be so inhumane to other man. I have decided not to read the book Random has mentioned…I am depressed enough without adding to it.
Generally there is some fear involved, then there is the feeling of superiority. The German people had been literally crushed in WWI. Since obviously none of us as a group can blame ourselves then someone else must be blamed. In the case of the Holocaust the easiest to pick on was the Jews. After all they themselves had become lackadaisicle in their faith. Then they went after the Gypsies because of their dark features and non-conformity to what was pure and Arian. Later they went after the handicapped and the homosexuals, in the end they turned on each other. Anything that was not of the norm was suspect. Historically we fought WWII as the “war to end all wars”. I don’t care where genocide occurs I think it is our responsibility as citizens of the world to do what we can to stop it. If we don’t stop it the nexts ones they come for may be us.
My personal belief system lies somewhere along the lines of “all God’s children got a place in the choir; some sing low and some sing higher…” We need “sinners” in the world just as much as we need Christians or whatever religion you personally subscribe to. I will defend your rights to my dying breath BUT your rights end when they enfringe on mine. If we were all perfect wouldn’t it be a dull boring world?
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Adios, I regard your messages to me as interesting, useful, and worth considering seriously.
I will have to think about your #22 some more before I can fully answer with more than a shred of intelligence and knowledge.
I am still (slowly) reading Enst Becker’s book Denial of Death. I think he delves deeper into possible roots of genocidal and other evil behavior than Kiernan’s book, which is mostly descriptive.
I think it is quite common for oppressed groups to eventually turn “in turn” into oppressors.
We [our white ancestors] enslaved blacks and murdered Indians.
They are not always as nice and appreciative to us as we think they should be. Check with Nick Peters; he is very conscious of being persecuted by these groups.
At one time, open expression of atheism probably meant death. Later some atheists (communists) killed Christians by the millions, along with other victims.
I suppose something similar is happening in regard to homosexuality. When they flagrantly “come out,” some Christians feel persecuted. Whether this will “evolve” into homosexuals killing Christians or forcing Christians to marry people of the same sex, I don’t know. But human beings are very strange and very destructive; it’s a bad combination.
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Kim, thank you. I always appreciate your posts as well.
I’m going to work and won’t be reading any messages here for a while today. So, if you are ignoring me, I won’t notice for a bit. (To everyone, not Adios or Kim or anyone else.)
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I suspect that Chas has been around long enough to have had a whole variety of people accused of being the Anti-Christ, as have I. There are a lot of political accusations to just throw out as silly or nasty or just plain ignorant. That is one I would put in that category.
I am more concerned that you are afraid of reading the book of Revelation. It was written to help God’s people to be less frightened. We are normally less frightened when we know the end of the story. It has been placed at the end of the bible as we have it today. We need to read the rest of the bible and look at it in context. We need to learn about God in all the ways he is revealed, acknowledge who he is and who we are and ask him to help us know him and obey him. Then we won’t need to be frightened. God is love and perfect love casts out fear. A proper fear of God is right and will bring a proper understanding. When we have that understanding we will lose our fear of many other things. I hope that you will lose that fear Kim.
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Joe B. Because of Obama, I’m voting for McCain. I have seen that video before.
It is best not to make any assumptions about the Antichrist. Of course, the Bible says there will be many anitichrists, but there will be a man of sin. I think we can safely, in discussions, make the following assumptions: Antichrist = man of sin = beast =666.
It’s best not to make any prior assumptions. i.e. He doesn’t have to be European, he doesn’t have to be a Jew. (Seriously, someone once thought “he” was Henry Kissinger, because “it has to be a jew.”) He doesn’t have to be the Pope. He doesn’t have to be Muslem. He could be any of those.
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KI, my fear stem from the WAY it was taught. If we didn’t turn our lives over to God and become Christians…this that and the other bad things would happend to us. There would be wars and rumors of wars complete with graphic images. There is a building in NYC with a computer known as the Beast and the address is 666. It truly was a warped way to teach young impressionable children. They had big bonfires to burn records so we could see the demons come out…they wanted me to bring a rosary I own to throw on the fire. I was terrified that there wouldn’t be enough food when the end came. I was terrified of waking up and my parents not being there and all sorts of sick twisted things. I truly can understand how religion has damaged some who participate here. I just managed somehow to come away less damaged.
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RN, #15. It was five minutes to midnight in 1962, Cuban Missile Crisis. It has been five minutes to midnight several times since. I ignore the Doomsday Clock.
I Thess. 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them,…
Kim, skip ahead and read Chapters 21 & 22. We win! It isn’t religion that damages, it’s some of the teachers. You have to be careful if the teacher has an agenda besides teaching.
Martin Luther thought the Pope was antichrist. He was really more interested in tagging the pope than identifying antichrist.
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Thanks, Chas, I’ll go to that blog.
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Kim! I bring forth news of great joy and encouragement for those who trust the Lord Jesus as their savior. I have been studying Revelation (NO s) for the better part of 20 years+. I have been truly blessed with finding some real fulfilling resources concerning the subject matter you bring forth in post #3. This is because one of my theological strengths is the study of “end times”, or in another word: eschatology.
Kim: Anyway my intention is not to turn this into an is Obama the Anti-Christ thread, this is me admitting that I have become woefully ignorant of the Anti-Christ. As I have said before the study of Revelations terrifies me and make me have nightmares, but this is embarrassing not to know. Would you all care to contribute to my re-education?
Kim, my dear sister, have no fear. It is for this reason I have come to World on the Web. The adult sunday school class at our church in Rhode Island has finished an in-depth study on Revelation just a few weeks ago. In trying to see the class go through a chapter / week, it was impossible because there is so much content in that book to consider. Revelation has 22 chapters, and it took our class about 31 weeks to get through it all in our 1 hour time slot. To help me organize my notes, and to understand more of what we were getting into, I referred to a website in this field of study: http://www.revelationcommentary.org
Kim, I believe this website alone will provide you with enough good ecclesiastical insight that the fear will go away from the start. This website is divided into chapters that you can read on your own time, and is helpful with relevant scriptures to give more background. Joe B. is right in post 25.
Another resource I’ve found very helpful, albeit dated is a book by J. Dwight Pentecost (real name!) called: THINGS TO COME – a study in biblical eschatology. If you do a websearch, you will find it. Kim, if this really concerns you, just remember this—–> As in every great book (especially the Bible) if you read the end…JESUS WINS! And by our association and relationship with Him, we also win!!!
Praise God.
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A good scripture for all of us to remember: Matthew 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
That is heavy stuff!
my interpretation: It means that many people (”Christians?”) will believe this person to be the Very Christ returned. Many Jews will believe he is the Christ. And, I suspect, Muslems (Shia) will believe it’s the Twelfth Imam. Those who belong to Christ Jesus will recognize that he is the evil one. But, speculation beforehand is useless.
But, as Matt. 24:24 says, Christians will know.
II Thess. 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
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Theopolis, Where is this church in RI? I belonged to Middletown BC in 1972. A quick perusal of the Revelation study indicates that I believe in it’s method of interpretation. i.e. Pre-wrath (Sixth seal) rapture, premillenial.
Enough now, I have a lot to do.
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There also are amillenial and postmillenial views that I believe deserve consideration in looking at the subject of last things.
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Thank You Theo I will check into it.
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Joe B. – Which scripture/s do you believe point out that the Anti-Christ will be European?
I’ve also heard someone say quite confidently that the Anti-Christ will definitely be Syrian. Or maybe he just said Arab in general, but I think I recall he specifically said Syrian. If he backed this up with scripture, I don’t recall it.
I don’t currently have an opinion on this, but am interested in various theories.
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Chas: I am a member of Woodlawn BC in Pawtucket, RI. It was founded in 1893. I’ve been active there since my membership in 1998. Mrs. Theo and I have attended a wonderful church along Rte 114 in Middletown en route to a visit in Newport.
Donna in post 37: That is why I included the book reference by Dwight Pentecost. For those who would like applicable mentions of all views concerning last things, I like that book best.
Kim: may you be thoroughly blessed, encouraged and theologically strengthened by your research!
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Karen O. Daniel 9:26-27
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be (A)cut off and have nothing,
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Sorry about that Karen O. Not sure why it did not work:
Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be (A)cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will (B)destroy the city and the sanctuary And its end will come with a (C)flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
27″And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of (D)abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a (E)complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
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I interrupt your discussion of such petty things as politics and theology to announce that my child was chosen as the “Star Student” of his kindergarten class. You may resume.
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KBells,
Yay!
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Well let’s do celebrate the more important things in life. Congratulations! Master Bell!
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Testing, testing (#21). Random, you are a nincompoop.
(Ouch, ouch–my heart….)
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Cheryl! BE NICE!
Congratulations KBells.
Theo, it was probably Middleton BC. It was, in 1972, generally run by students at the Naval War College in Newport, and their families. They came in in mid August, started teaching the third week there and left in June midst tears and cheers. It was a good experience.
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Master Bell is, indeed, to be congratulated. I think there are very few left who even remember young boys being addressed as Master so and so. There are quite a few who would like to be the master. Perhaps even all of them. Or is that just all human beings in general?
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Donna, #37, I have investigated the Nonmillenial and Premillenial views. I have rejected both. At SWBTS, I studied Revelation with an Amillenial professor. We used Worthy is the Lamb by Ray Summers for a text. The text is amillenial. I have my book marked throughout with disagreements with his approach.
i.e. On p. 196, I say he loses an army. Using Rev. 16:12 “…the great river Euphrates, and it’s water was dried up, so that the kings of the east might be prepared.” He says, “He prepares the way for the Parthians to invade Rome, but he did not use them; he changed the figure and let an earthquake and giant hailstones do the destructive work.” I can’t imagine John telling us about an army that is not used.
As I told KLasko on another site, This is heavy stuff. The book of Revelation has to mean something. If, as Summers says, it means that Rome will, in about 300 years, no longer persecute Christians, it’s like loading the Battleship Missouri with 200 lb of powder in each cannon, and firing off styrofoam packing balls.
Or, as Shakespeare might say, “Much ado about nothing.”
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kbells,
An excellent start indeed!
Kudos!
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KI I am a wealth of obscure information. Sable is the preferred fur for morning. There is a difference between the size of dinner forks and luncheon forks. Children used to have nursery pushers to learn to push food onto their forks before they were taught to use their bread although these days we use our knives. It’s funny I have referred to my nephew as Master Harbin all of his life the problem now is that he is 22 and no longer a master although he would like to be.
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My husband’s mom always addressed cards to the the grandchildren to Master and Miss. I loved it.
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You know after I addressed him as Master Bell and posted I had a moment of panic knowing that he is biracial and I was afraid I was going to offend someone. I’m glad it brought a memory and a smile to some of you.
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Since my parents had only girls, I’m not sure how I happened to learn about calling a boy “Master” until he was old enough to be a “Mister,” but it’s something I grew up knowing. I remember being rather puzzled one morning in second grade, when we came into Mrs. Grant’s classroom and saw “Congratulations Master Grant!” written on the blackboard. It turned out she had just received her Masters degree.
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Young Master Bells sends thanks for the congratulation. Though I must agree that the title “Master” is a little too close to his attitude. I often tell people that he has a “servant spirit”. He thinks he has one.
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Sad day. The DOW is down another 5%
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Yeah, that bailout sure helped.
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Let’s wait to see if it loosens credit. I don’t care if Wall Street takes a hit. My 401K will recover if I leave it alone.
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And you worried, KBells! Tell the little guy we’re proud of him!
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What happened to Justus331?
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Chas #49: Boy, you’re right about all this being “heavy stuff” (is that a theological term?). There are orthodox Christians in each of these ‘camps,’ if you will.
But with the rise in popularity dispensational premillennialism in more recent years, my sense is that some (many?) evangelicals really are completely unaware there even ARE other biblically-based views of the end times (views which, by the way, have dominated through most of church history up until only very recently).
I think cases can be made for all of the views from Scripture. Sometimes I wish these things were spelled out more explicitly, but what we have is sufficient, of course, for all we need to know.
But we would all agree that Jesus will return someday (we know not the hour or day), that we are always to be ready, and that the “end of the story,” as it were, is one believers can indeed look forward to with great anticipation.
There are good books that explain the 4 views. And as for a look at postmillennialism, I enjoyed the book by Keith A. Mathison: “Postmillennialism, An Eschatology of Hope.” There’s also RC Sproul’s “Last Things According to Jesus.”
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As for my 401k, I’m afraid to even look anymore.
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Donna J,
Thanks for posting pretty much what TJ would have said–he’s in presbytery meetings today and tomorrow, so no WMB.
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Donna, I suspect that many who oppose the premillenial position are actually revolting against the timelines and charts that dispensationalist use. In another place, I sent a chart to KLasko and others. Using a bit of magic I learned from Cameron & someone else, I will post it here for anyone who might be interested.
We are all brothers in Christ. We have certain beliefs concerning the end times. Our convictions are firm, but nothing that should divide us. While teaching Revelation in a SS class many years ago, I drew up a chart explaining my stance in the issue. I presented it side-by-side on a board,
THIS I KNOW——-THIS I BELIEVE——–THIS I SUSPECT
but essentially it was the same as here.
I. THIS I KNOW
i.e. If you believe the Bible, you believe this:
1. Jesus will return.
Matt. 16:27, “The Son of man shall come….and reward…”
I Thess. 4:16, ‘For the Lord himself shall descend…with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”
John 14:3 “,…I will come again, and receive you…”
Acts 1:11 “This same Jesus…shall come in like manner…”
Etc. Too many others to mention.
2. The time has already been appointed.
Acts 1:7 “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has put in his own power.”
Daniel 11:35 “…even to the time of the end, because it is yet for a time appointed.”
3. No one knows when.
Matt 24:42 “Watch, ye know not the hour…”
II Peter 3:4f
4. There will be tribulation
Matt 24:, 21, 29 “for then shall be great tribulation…”, Immediately after the tribulation…”
5. There will be a judgment.
Matt. 25:31f “before him shall be gathered all nations…”
I Cor. 4:5 “The Lord… will bring to light the hidden things.. and will make manifest the counsels of the heart…”
II Thess. 1:7, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God,….”
Rev. 20:11 -The great white throne.
6. We should be watchful.
Matt. 24:42 “Watch, therefore, for you know not what hour your Lord will come.”
Matt 25 (Entire chapter)
7. There will be false prophets throughout the ages.
Matt. 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, …that if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
II Peter 3:3
II Thess. 2:3f “except there come the falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. (But this refers to a specific person at a specific time.)
8. It will be a time of:
joy, for Christians.
I Thess 2:19 “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?”
Titus 2:13
Sorrow for sinners.
I Thess 5:2-3 “For you know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them….” –This applies to 1& 3 above also.
II Thess 1:7-9 “…In flaming vengeance on them that know not God….”
Rev. 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
9. Not everyone will die. (There will be what we call a rapture.)
Phil. 3:21 “Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like his glorious body….”
I Thess. 4:17 “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air;…”
II THIS I BELIEVE
I an convinced by scripture that these events are ordained. However, I have known brothers in Christ who differ in interpretation of the scripture.
1. Tribulation will proceed His coming.
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven….and he shall send his angels “
II Thess 2:3 quoted above.
2. There will be a millennium.
Rev. 20:1-3 ‘And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.”
Is. 65:18f “But be glad and rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people; and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her,….” 25, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together….They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, says the Lord”
Zech 14:16f “”And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations…shall go up..to worship the King…”
Heb 8:8-13
3. God’s people will know. (We spend a lot of time speculating, but I believe that God’s people will know when it IS happening.)
Matt. 24:15,24 “When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation…” The elect will not be deceived.
Daniel 12:4, 9-10 “Go thy way Daniel, for the words are closed and sealed till the time of the end. …. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.”
The examples of: shepherds, wise men, Simeon, Anna, and others
III THIS I SUSPECT
Many people who agree with the premillennial position differ on this.
1, Christians will endure at least part of the tribulation.
Matt. 24:15, 24, 29f “Immediately after the tribulation …”
Rev 6:11 “…rest…until their fellow servants also…should be killed as they.”
Rev 14:13 “…Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth…”
2, It will happen soon
But “soon” is like “shortly come to pass” in Rev 1:1. I did this originally a couple of decades ago. But the signs are there and the world appears ready as never before. Only God knows when “the fullness of time” occurs.
Questions?
Why do I think you should care:
1. Jesus said WATCH
2. It was important in the Bible. The references above are random samples, not exhaustive, and I have not quoted duplicate passages from the Gospels.
3. If I am correct, we need to be strong spiritually.
I had a pastor in W. Lafayette, Ind. He was in his late eighties. Retired, had a student ministry. He was looking for the return of Christ in his lifetime. “No more tiredness, no more pain, no more losing loved ones.” He died, he never saw the rapture.
But, at the last moments of his life, I’m sure he realized he had done the right thing.
We have heard from preachers and teachers forever. “The Jews were looking for a political/military deliverer.”
Why?
We are going to differ in some details, but if we’re about the business, we’re doing the right thing.
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#46
As Sergeant Sweik would say, “Beg to report, sir, I am an idiot.”
I am indeed a nincompoop. My wife often points this out to me, and who would know better?
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A silver lining to the financial meltdown?
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) – Crude futures closed at their lowest level in eight months Monday, as concerns over the health of the global economy and a historic drop in the U.S. stock market pushed prices for crude below the $88-per-barrel level.
“As the financial and economic crisis spreads, oil prices continue to trade on the bad economic news,” said James Williams, economist at WTRG Economics. “Buying oil futures is like trying to catch a falling knife.”
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RPN, we still must have ethanol, the future of the world depends on it.
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Chas, Is the world comprised of corn farmers?
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The reason the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists came to mind (#15) is that I think something similar could be developed for evaluating How Close We Are to a Greater Depression.
#66
Do a quick count of how many people have falling knives sticking out of their hands, for another indicator. My salt mine and my medicine for sick people company are still above water. General Electric is doing a fine imitation of a submarine: way under water, as is the rest of my tiny portfolio.
So if you ask: Random, if you are so smart, why aren’t you rich?
The answer is: I am neither smart nor rich. That wasn’t hard to figure out, was it?
I would favor de-electing every single elected representative in the coming general election. Not only the Senators and the Representatives on a national level, but the Representatives and Senators at the state level and the county level and the city level also.
I favor such a mood because I am suceptible to mob psychology, mass hysteria, and general panic.
This would not mean blood running in the streets, but it would mean former representatives standing at on ramps and off ramps holding signs saying, “Will pass silly legislation for biofuel.”
Well, maybe if they were passing biofuel they would be moving down the street rapidly. This would also mean that every “dangerous” Democratic district would be represented by a Republican for a while and every “safe” Republican district would be represented by a Democrat for a while.
Lobbyists would adapt quickly; voters would be confused. This would be quite different from the present situation. Nevertheless: vote the bums out. That means your bums. Whining about the bums next door doesn’t cut the cheese. Do the deed.
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Cameron (63): I’m sure TJ, you, & many others are far more learned & capable at discussing these things than I am. I appreciate the time Chas has spent in serious study of the issue. It’s not an easy one.
Our pastor told us that he literally stopped in the middle of a sermon he was giving some years ago (on Revelation) when he realized he didn’t really agree with one of the commentators he was citing.
He then spent 2-3 years reading through the entire Scriptures, each time with one one of the end times views in mind. He came to the conclusion that the postmil view fit best (and required the least amount of contortion) with the whole of scripture.
(I noticed on your web link a mention of Owens’ Mortification of Sin. I read that a couple summers ago and found it a remarkable book, so personally helpful to me. I’ve also pre-ordered Michael Horton’s new book & am really looking forward to it.)
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ps — Let me re-phrase one part of that: i don’t think it was so much that our pastor didn’t “agree” with the commentator he was using in that sermon he gave years ago; but rather that he felt he had simply accepted it — and was spoon feeding it out — without having done his own intensive, first-hand study.
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He came to the conclusion that the postmil view fit best (and required the least amount of contortion) with the whole of scripture.
With which TJ would agree. I, however, have studied far less than y’all, and I enjoy sitting back and watching the discussion.
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Press kept under a watchful eye
CLEARWATER, FL– Constantly under the watchful eyes of security, the media wasn’t permitted to wander around inside Coachman Park to talk to Sarah Palin supporters. When reporters tried to leave the designated press area and head toward the bleachers where the crowd was seated, an escort would dart out of nowhere and confront him or her and say, “Can I help you?” and turn the person around.
When one reporter asked an escort, who would not give her name, why the press wasn’t allowed to mingle, she said that in the past, negative things had been written. The campaign wanted to avoid that possibility Monday.
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(Cameron 72) Our pastor also mentioned to us that no one in the congregation complained when he stopped in the middle of that sermon.
I’ve dabbled only, a far cry from doing my own intensive study, I’m ashamed to say, which is why I admire our pastor, Chas and so many others who make the independent effort to do so.
I’m afraid our attention spans nowadays have become so short, which is not very conducive to serious, in-depth study.
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Several weeks ago, I predicted right here on WMB, that the Keating Five scandal would come up in October. I don’t expect anyone to remember, but I’m feeling pretty smart about now.
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Well, RPN, the press did it to themselves. I don’t feel sorry for them.
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Thank you all who responded to me. Good news! The orthodontist wants to see Chloe next September!!!!
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Chas, that was a great post at 64. Jesus did indeed tell us to be watchful. I’ve always been a little afraid of that parable of the ten virgins.
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They don’t need pitty, NJL. It’s just going to make McCain and Palin slide deeper. They’re shooting themselves in the foot if you ask me. Oh, you didn’t? I hope we can still be best friends.
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Friends,
What is the 10th of the Ten Commandments. According to John Adams it very well was: “10. Thou shalt not boil the kid, while it is yet sucking.” Check out the following letter where he doubts we have the right version of the 10 Commandments, noting the originals were lost.
http://tinyurl.com/46u647
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Pity? Who said anything about pity? I don’t for sorry for people who mock someone’s accent, or shoes, or family, etc. — you know everything they said about Palin — and then they’re offended when they are put off? I don’t pity them. They’re getting what they richly deserve. I’m no fan of Hollywood stars, but I’ll bet a lot of them wish they had Secret Service agents around.
You know, I don’t know how this election will turn out, but during the last two elections when leftys thought it was going their way … well, they lost.
Of course, we friends. Never let politics get in the way. We can agree to disagree. I do it all the time.
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And John Adams is to be considered an expert on Scripture because ……why?
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Wow! I won again! Too bad I didn’t get to the s’more in time, and the marshmallow ran all over a random post or two, so it looks like the renamed lumps is writing in praise of Sarah Palin and Random Name is confessing his love of rabbits, such that he is organizing a new group: PETR (People for the Ethical Treatment of Rabbits), which confused Anlir enough that he though I was insulting him (due to the unfortunate closeness of my name to the name of RN’s new organization), so he withdrew my entry and gave the s’more to Cheryl D, whose dog got it and got sick, so now Cheryl is so mad that she stole Victoria’s silver bong and is out to get Anlir, who is now hold up in the nearest Borders, hiding in the gardening section, where he ran into Random who was looking for books about what garden plants are best for rabbit lovers. So Random saw Cheryl and accidentally mentioned seeing Anlir, who ran out of the store into the path of MiM’s pickup truck, causing him to lose control to avoid an accident, but he instead ran over a rabbit, which got RN angry enough to use his pellet gun…
It’s Monday, right?
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Just throwing it out food for thought. Instead of banning posting the original 10 Commandments on public property, I suggest posting Adams’ proposed alternate 10 Commandments along with quotations from that letter where he notes:
“When and where originated our ten commandments? The tables and the ark were lost. Authentic copies in few, if any hands; the ten Precepts could not be observed, and were little remembered. If the book of Deuteronomy was compiled, during or after the Babylonian captivity, from traditions, the error or amendment might come in those.”
This is important because it shows Adams believed the Bible had “error[s]” and “amendment[s].” It’s part of America’s freethinking heritage. The nice thing about America is we have a secular/pagan and freethinking heritage along side a “Judeo-Christian” heritage.
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NJL-
You make it sound like the cast of SNL was following the campaign
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Peter L.,
Wow–how did you know about all that? Was that old lady in a wig really you?
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#83 Peter L
Saturday, somebody asked me if I was taking my medications.
I provided a truthful list of all the medications (I pretty faithfully) take.
From When Harry Met Sally: Older Woman Customer: [to waiter] “I’ll have what she’s having.”
I’ll have what Peter L is taking.
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I can predict the future. Fuld being treated unfairly as a scapegoat will be a wmb topic tomorrow. Too bad I will miss the fun.
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Hi Peter L,
Rough day at school today?
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Chas,
I like your chart, very clear. Thanks.
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Have some tissues ready when you view this following link. They showed a clip at church last year, and this is a follow-up video of what actually happened.
A son asked his father, ‘Dad, will you take part in a marathon with me?’ The father who, despite having a heart condition, says ‘Yes’. They went on to complete the marathon together. Father and son went on to join other marathons, the father always saying ‘Yes’ to his son’s request of going through the race together. One day, the son asked his father, ‘Dad, let’s join the Ironman together.’
To which, his father said ‘Yes’.
For those who didn’t know, Ironman is the toughest triathlon ever. The race encompasses three endurance events of a 2.4 mile (3.86 kilometer) ocean swim, followed by a 112 mile (180.2 kilometer) bike ride, and ending with a 26.2 mile (42.195 kilometer) marathon along the coast of the Big Island
Father and son went on to complete the race together.
Click Here to View the View of the duo.
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“They’re shooting themselves in the foot if you ask me.”
Who, the press? Darn tootin they are. Anyway, McCain is right to keep these parasites in check.
“You make it sound like the cast of SNL was following the campaign>”
Something like that. There are an awful lot of idiots whose quotes about palin are being published.
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MiM-
Why do you think Palin should not be allowed to speak off script? Why should the Palinistas not speak?
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