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	<title>Comments on: Conservative leaders react</title>
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		<title>By: evan</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368638</link>
		<dc:creator>evan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Conservatives can often be ethereal and irrelevant. We must show how our biblical worldview is also a relevant worldview, and that it speaks to what people are dealing with here and now&quot; -Tony Evans

I agree, but then again I don&#039;t.

Evangelicals have much to say that is substantively relevant.  Their problem lies with their delivery of the message.  Most evangelical political discourse relies on a narrative that owes itself to some combination of revivalistic pietism and social populism.  Many folks in major urban centers have no experience with these discursive narratives.  Many evangelicals in major urban centers probably have encountered these narratives, but don&#039;t use them in conducting their daily affairs.  

Evangelicals (and social conservatives, in particular) have tied the substance of their arguments too closely with this populist/pietist narrative.  They will not be taken seriously until they can repackage their ideas into a narrative framework that is intelligible to urban elites.  Tim Keller has developed a fruitful ministry in New York because he presents the gospel in a narrative framework that is intelligible to Manhattanites.  In other words, he&#039;s held to the substance of evangelical faith, but has jettisoned the narrative forms which have typically been associated with evangelicalism in America.

I have little hope, though, that evangelicals will succeed in bridging this linguistic chasm.  As Mike Horton documents in his recent book, much of evangelicalism has recently opted for form over substance.  This &quot;Christless Christianity&quot; guts the substance of the gospel message, but holds onto populist/pietist narrative.  In that sense, for many evangelicals, form has become their substance.

As globalization continues, those tied to this populist/pietist narrative will find themselves increasingly isolated from substantive discussions.

Conservatism grew under Reagan because substance trumped form.  Conservatism has been recently swept from power because form was permitted to trump substance.  I believe that evangelicals are principally to blame for this switch.  Dick Armey made this point eloquently in his 2006 exchanges with Jim Dobson.  Many evangelicals&#039; fawning adoration for Mike Huckabee and Sarah Palin demonstrates that they prefer form over substance.  Neither had much to offer in terms of substance.  (Palin couldn&#039;t even name the three signatories to NAFTA!)  But neither had any difficulties attracting millions of evangelicals to their cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Conservatives can often be ethereal and irrelevant. We must show how our biblical worldview is also a relevant worldview, and that it speaks to what people are dealing with here and now&#8221; -Tony Evans</p>
<p>I agree, but then again I don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Evangelicals have much to say that is substantively relevant.  Their problem lies with their delivery of the message.  Most evangelical political discourse relies on a narrative that owes itself to some combination of revivalistic pietism and social populism.  Many folks in major urban centers have no experience with these discursive narratives.  Many evangelicals in major urban centers probably have encountered these narratives, but don&#8217;t use them in conducting their daily affairs.  </p>
<p>Evangelicals (and social conservatives, in particular) have tied the substance of their arguments too closely with this populist/pietist narrative.  They will not be taken seriously until they can repackage their ideas into a narrative framework that is intelligible to urban elites.  Tim Keller has developed a fruitful ministry in New York because he presents the gospel in a narrative framework that is intelligible to Manhattanites.  In other words, he&#8217;s held to the substance of evangelical faith, but has jettisoned the narrative forms which have typically been associated with evangelicalism in America.</p>
<p>I have little hope, though, that evangelicals will succeed in bridging this linguistic chasm.  As Mike Horton documents in his recent book, much of evangelicalism has recently opted for form over substance.  This &#8220;Christless Christianity&#8221; guts the substance of the gospel message, but holds onto populist/pietist narrative.  In that sense, for many evangelicals, form has become their substance.</p>
<p>As globalization continues, those tied to this populist/pietist narrative will find themselves increasingly isolated from substantive discussions.</p>
<p>Conservatism grew under Reagan because substance trumped form.  Conservatism has been recently swept from power because form was permitted to trump substance.  I believe that evangelicals are principally to blame for this switch.  Dick Armey made this point eloquently in his 2006 exchanges with Jim Dobson.  Many evangelicals&#8217; fawning adoration for Mike Huckabee and Sarah Palin demonstrates that they prefer form over substance.  Neither had much to offer in terms of substance.  (Palin couldn&#8217;t even name the three signatories to NAFTA!)  But neither had any difficulties attracting millions of evangelicals to their cause.
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		<title>By: Tychicus</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368555</link>
		<dc:creator>Tychicus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>NT #21: &lt;i&gt;The gay marriage thing passed by 52-48, but 8 years ago it was 61-39. Four or eight more years and it would fail.&lt;/i&gt;

Did you see this in yesterday&#039;s WV?

&lt;i&gt;Proposition 8 [affirming marriage as a union between one man and one woman] would have failed in the Golden State if it were up to white voters, who opposed it by a 51-49 ratio. What carried it over the top was enormous support from black voters, with about 70 percent of them backing it. Hispanics also supported the ban by significant, though smaller, margins.&lt;/i&gt;

If the California minority population continues to increase as it has been, then shouldn&#039;t we expect Californians as a whole to continue to support the traditional view of marriage?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NT #21: <i>The gay marriage thing passed by 52-48, but 8 years ago it was 61-39. Four or eight more years and it would fail.</i></p>
<p>Did you see this in yesterday&#8217;s WV?</p>
<p><i>Proposition 8 [affirming marriage as a union between one man and one woman] would have failed in the Golden State if it were up to white voters, who opposed it by a 51-49 ratio. What carried it over the top was enormous support from black voters, with about 70 percent of them backing it. Hispanics also supported the ban by significant, though smaller, margins.</i></p>
<p>If the California minority population continues to increase as it has been, then shouldn&#8217;t we expect Californians as a whole to continue to support the traditional view of marriage?
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368553</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The one big difference between Reagan&#039;s quote and now Outkast, is that all candidates in this election ran as liberals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one big difference between Reagan&#8217;s quote and now Outkast, is that all candidates in this election ran as liberals.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368548</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think this is what you are saying Night Train:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.&quot;   Sir Alexander Frasier Tytler, 1747 - 1843&lt;/i&gt;

I disagree about the dictatorship part, as Plato described in the Republic.  I think we are headed for European style socialism and ultimately weakness and irrelevance.   We will begin to see the same problems that England and France are experiencing now.  The unwashed masses yearning to get free stuff will move in and become an increasing economic burden.  Censorship of religious speech will continue to increase as will crime and Islamic extortion and terror.

It is the will of the people.  And apparently it is the will of God.  This all reminds me that America is not really my country.  We are merely sojourners to our real country.  The will of God is to minister to these people until we reach our final home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is what you are saying Night Train:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.&#8221;   Sir Alexander Frasier Tytler, 1747 &#8211; 1843</i></p>
<p>I disagree about the dictatorship part, as Plato described in the Republic.  I think we are headed for European style socialism and ultimately weakness and irrelevance.   We will begin to see the same problems that England and France are experiencing now.  The unwashed masses yearning to get free stuff will move in and become an increasing economic burden.  Censorship of religious speech will continue to increase as will crime and Islamic extortion and terror.</p>
<p>It is the will of the people.  And apparently it is the will of God.  This all reminds me that America is not really my country.  We are merely sojourners to our real country.  The will of God is to minister to these people until we reach our final home.
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		<title>By: Peter Leavitt</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368535</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Leavitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 14:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul Ryan, the Republican Congressman from Wisconsin, makes an incisive point in his blog as follows:

&lt;i&gt;As Congressional Budget Office (CBO) Director Orszag recently warned: “ We will ultimately wind up with a financial crisis that is substantially more severe than even what we are facing today if we don’t alter the path of federal spending.”

President-elect Obama has a unique opportunity to build a bipartisan solution to this grave problem. In his victory speech, he called for bipartisanship and highlighted Lincoln’s principles of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity. During the campaign, however, I was deeply disappointed about his responses to this entitlement problem. In the second Presidential debate, when asked where entitlement reform fell among three national priorities, he did not list it. When directly asked whether addressing the entitlement crisis would be one of his priorities as President, he responded it was not on his agenda – at least not for the next two years.&lt;/i&gt;

Ryan is right that unless the unfunded liabilities of federal entitlement programs are addressed our country is headed for very serious trouble. If Obama addresses and resolves the entitlements issue, he will have done the nation a fabulous service. Pres. Bush made some attempts in this area but was quite unsuccessful. This in fact in the long run will be the blackest mark on his economic record, as it will also be for Obama should he fail.

Ryan is a rising star in the Republican party and well worth watching. The WSJ today called attention to his Wisconsin victory of 62%-37% in a district that voted in favor of Obama 53%-46%. Ryan is a young 38 and has been in Congress ten years. He has come up with a realistic vision called &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.house.gov/budget_republicans/americanroadmap_home.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A Roadmap for America&#039;s Future &lt;/a&gt; that is must reading for people concerned about the nations future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Ryan, the Republican Congressman from Wisconsin, makes an incisive point in his blog as follows:</p>
<p><i>As Congressional Budget Office (CBO) Director Orszag recently warned: “ We will ultimately wind up with a financial crisis that is substantially more severe than even what we are facing today if we don’t alter the path of federal spending.”</p>
<p>President-elect Obama has a unique opportunity to build a bipartisan solution to this grave problem. In his victory speech, he called for bipartisanship and highlighted Lincoln’s principles of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity. During the campaign, however, I was deeply disappointed about his responses to this entitlement problem. In the second Presidential debate, when asked where entitlement reform fell among three national priorities, he did not list it. When directly asked whether addressing the entitlement crisis would be one of his priorities as President, he responded it was not on his agenda – at least not for the next two years.</i></p>
<p>Ryan is right that unless the unfunded liabilities of federal entitlement programs are addressed our country is headed for very serious trouble. If Obama addresses and resolves the entitlements issue, he will have done the nation a fabulous service. Pres. Bush made some attempts in this area but was quite unsuccessful. This in fact in the long run will be the blackest mark on his economic record, as it will also be for Obama should he fail.</p>
<p>Ryan is a rising star in the Republican party and well worth watching. The WSJ today called attention to his Wisconsin victory of 62%-37% in a district that voted in favor of Obama 53%-46%. Ryan is a young 38 and has been in Congress ten years. He has come up with a realistic vision called <a href="http://www.house.gov/budget_republicans/americanroadmap_home.shtml" rel="nofollow">A Roadmap for America&#8217;s Future </a> that is must reading for people concerned about the nations future.
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		<title>By: Xion</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368526</link>
		<dc:creator>Xion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 13:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Unfortunately I think you are right Night Train.  We are watching the death of common sense.

And I also think CB is right.  Rahm Emmanuel is the guy that mailed a dead fish to people he disagreed with.  He repeatedly stabbed a steak knife into a table shouting the names of Democrats he was putting on a &quot;dead&quot; list.  Will he put the fear of God into inept partisans like Pelosi and Reid?  Fear maybe, but not of God.  They will fear his insanity and rage.  And I expect the dead fish to end up in Republican mailboxes from now on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately I think you are right Night Train.  We are watching the death of common sense.</p>
<p>And I also think CB is right.  Rahm Emmanuel is the guy that mailed a dead fish to people he disagreed with.  He repeatedly stabbed a steak knife into a table shouting the names of Democrats he was putting on a &#8220;dead&#8221; list.  Will he put the fear of God into inept partisans like Pelosi and Reid?  Fear maybe, but not of God.  They will fear his insanity and rage.  And I expect the dead fish to end up in Republican mailboxes from now on.
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		<title>By: CoyoteBlue</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368513</link>
		<dc:creator>CoyoteBlue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 12:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Outkast

That&#039;s a good quote and in some ways reflects the challenges the GOP will face.  There are alot of blue dog dems.  Unlike Xion, I think the Emmanual choice was speaking more to Pelosi and Reid than others.  Rahm Emmanuel&#039;s main task, I think will be to keep the dems in the Senate and House in line and if I am right about that, he was an inspired choice for the job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outkast</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good quote and in some ways reflects the challenges the GOP will face.  There are alot of blue dog dems.  Unlike Xion, I think the Emmanual choice was speaking more to Pelosi and Reid than others.  Rahm Emmanuel&#8217;s main task, I think will be to keep the dems in the Senate and House in line and if I am right about that, he was an inspired choice for the job.
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		<title>By: outkast</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368484</link>
		<dc:creator>outkast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 05:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Since our last meeting we have been through a disastrous election. It is easy for us to be discouraged, as pundits hail that election as a repudiation of our philosophy and even as a mandate of some kind or other. ... Bitter as it is to accept the results of the November election, we should have reason for some optimism. ...[I]t is possible we have been persuasive to a greater degree than we had ever realized. Few, if any, Democratic Party candidates in the last election ran as liberals. Listening to them I had the eerie feeling we were hearing reruns of [Barry] Goldwater speeches. I even thought I heard a few of my own.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

--Ronald Reagan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Since our last meeting we have been through a disastrous election. It is easy for us to be discouraged, as pundits hail that election as a repudiation of our philosophy and even as a mandate of some kind or other. &#8230; Bitter as it is to accept the results of the November election, we should have reason for some optimism. &#8230;[I]t is possible we have been persuasive to a greater degree than we had ever realized. Few, if any, Democratic Party candidates in the last election ran as liberals. Listening to them I had the eerie feeling we were hearing reruns of [Barry] Goldwater speeches. I even thought I heard a few of my own.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>&#8211;Ronald Reagan
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		<title>By: Night Train</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368458</link>
		<dc:creator>Night Train</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 04:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;What should conservative Christians focus on politically over the next four years?&lt;/i&gt;

Getting used to it.  And forget about the next 4 years.  Try the next forever.  They can talk policies, platforms, message, organization, etc., until they&#039;re blue in the face.  None of that matters.  What matters is demographics, and those are very, very bad news for conservative Christians.  Did anyone see California&#039;s results?  McCain got like 1/3 of the vote.  And among first time voters nationwide, it was about the same.  California used to be rock solid GOP, voting for every GOP prez from 1950-1990. Now it&#039;s gone forever.  What changed?  The people changed.  Back then, CA was overwhelmingly white.  Now it&#039;s not.  The gay marriage thing passed by 52-48, but 8 years ago it was 61-39.  Four or eight more years and it would fail.

Conservative Christians are overwhelmingly white people, and every day this country has fewer white people, and more non-whites.  And when blacks vote 9-1 for the Dems, and the Hispanics go 2-1 or higher for the Dems, add in Asians (65%), homosexuals (80%), Jews (80-85%), and white liberals, and the game is over before it begins.

It&#039;s over, Christians.  And that&#039;s coming from someone who shares most of your social concerns.  But my bigger concern is facing reality, and the reality is that the changing demographics doom any hopes of ever again seeing a conservative Christian political agenda enacted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What should conservative Christians focus on politically over the next four years?</i></p>
<p>Getting used to it.  And forget about the next 4 years.  Try the next forever.  They can talk policies, platforms, message, organization, etc., until they&#8217;re blue in the face.  None of that matters.  What matters is demographics, and those are very, very bad news for conservative Christians.  Did anyone see California&#8217;s results?  McCain got like 1/3 of the vote.  And among first time voters nationwide, it was about the same.  California used to be rock solid GOP, voting for every GOP prez from 1950-1990. Now it&#8217;s gone forever.  What changed?  The people changed.  Back then, CA was overwhelmingly white.  Now it&#8217;s not.  The gay marriage thing passed by 52-48, but 8 years ago it was 61-39.  Four or eight more years and it would fail.</p>
<p>Conservative Christians are overwhelmingly white people, and every day this country has fewer white people, and more non-whites.  And when blacks vote 9-1 for the Dems, and the Hispanics go 2-1 or higher for the Dems, add in Asians (65%), homosexuals (80%), Jews (80-85%), and white liberals, and the game is over before it begins.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s over, Christians.  And that&#8217;s coming from someone who shares most of your social concerns.  But my bigger concern is facing reality, and the reality is that the changing demographics doom any hopes of ever again seeing a conservative Christian political agenda enacted.
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		<title>By: Anlir</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2008/11/07/conservative-leaders-react/comment-page-1/#comment-368445</link>
		<dc:creator>Anlir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 03:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Re:  #12

&lt;i&gt;My greatest worry is not Obama, who is simplistic and naive.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, he clearly won his party&#039;s nomination and the Presidency by being &quot;simplistic and naive&quot;.  So what does that make the Republicans?  Idiots?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  #12</p>
<p><i>My greatest worry is not Obama, who is simplistic and naive.</i></p>
<p>Well, he clearly won his party&#8217;s nomination and the Presidency by being &#8220;simplistic and naive&#8221;.  So what does that make the Republicans?  Idiots?
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