Light, bright, gay (and violent) II
If democracy doesn’t fall your way, try anarchy. That seems to be the message developing among some gay marriage supporters around the country. Below, Harrison posts about an elderly woman assaulted in Palm Springs by demonstrators protesting the passage of Prop 8. There have been more incidents across the nation, including criminal attacks on people and property.
Vandals spray-painted Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, which served as an official collection point for the petitions to get Proposition 8 on the Golden State ballot.
On Nov. 8, a group calling itself Bash Back stormed a Sunday service at Mt. Hope, a 4,000-member mega-church near Lansing, Michigan. Demonstrators marched outside the church then invaded the sanctuary, shouting pro-gay slogans, throwing leaflets, and pulling a fire alarm. Here’s that story from the Detroit Free Press and from WorldNetDaily.
Strangely, Bash Back has released a photograph of its members brandishing bludgeons and wearing pink keffiyah that cover their faces. Two points on this. First, if you’re “out and proud,” why cover your face? (Oh, I know! Because you plan to trespass on private property and commit criminal acts.)
Second, you can cover your face with anything…why choose head garb favored by terrorists?
The Mormon church donated $20 million to help pass California’s Proposition 8, the most hotly contested traditional marriage initiative in the land. Yesterday, an estimated 10,000 people in New York City marched outside the Mormon Temple, shouting slogans such as “Church of Latter Day Hate” and calling for the church to lose its tax-exempt status.
“This is an outrage,” said Prison Fellowship director Chuck Colson in a Nov. 13 commentary on the gay response to Election Day. “What hypocrisy from those who spend all of their time preaching tolerance to the rest of us! How dare they threaten and attack political opponents? We live a democratic country, not a banana republic ruled by thugs.”
I’m still waiting for a splashy repudiation of pro-gay-marriage thuggery. I checked some gay-friendly websites — The Human Rights Campaign, The Advocate, Equality California, and Lambda — hoping to see a bold and highly visible condemnation.
Couldn’t find one.
At the Lambda site, that’s especially ironic since one of its major homepage links, “AntiViolence,” provides a way for homosexuals to report incidents of anti-gay violence. Maybe Lambda should post a second link for reporting violence aimed in the other direction.
You know…in the name of equality.




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back to top286 Comments to “Light, bright, gay (and violent) II”
Wow, that small minority sure does move around the country quickly.
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There’s a fundamental difference between what happened in Lansing and what happened in New York City (at least as the events are described here).
Calling for legal change and engaging in non-violent protest—even loud, pointed, and potentially offensive protest—are (or at least were) methods that are central to our democracy.
Trespassing and assault, on the other hand, are just stupid and immature ways of trying to get your point across.
This post comes dangerously close to conflating the two responses.
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No, Pecksniff, “loud, pointed, and potentially offensive protest” are NOT “central to our democracy.” Visible protest, sure, but not the rest of it.
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It seems that the conservative Christians are outraged that gay people are standing up for themselves. How dare we exercise our Constitutional rights to march and protest and speak out against injustice and inequality.
But then, considering that conservative Christians consider us to be the scum of the earth, I’m not surprised at the furious reaction.
Why doesn’t Lynn talk about the gay-bashing and the acts of violence that the “Yes on 8″ people (and others) have done toward gay people? Why doesn’t Lynn talk about the desecration of the Jewish Synagogue by the “Yes on 8″ people? What about the “Yes on 8″ people who picketed the private homes of gay people and shouted unspeakable things at them and carried signs that would make Rev. Phelps happy?
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“Outraged”? “Furious reaction”?
The only people those words describe are the angry homosexuals. I’ve seen nothing that even approaches that here. Lynn’s post seemed, if anything, rather bemused at their childishness and hypocrisy. Hardly furious.
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#4 is what is known as tu quoque. As such, it may safely be ignored.
The Grand Examples of Tolerance are showing themselves for what they really are: spoiled children.
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I’m not surprised by the acts of violence, considering that homosexuals think they are better than everyone else, have an intense hatred of religion, and would generally prefer that all Christians die.
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#6 Stubob,
Here’s a funny cartoon illustrating “tu quoque.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Punch-Tu_Quoque_1904.jpg
The only question is whether we can change the caption to make it apply to Anlir and his comments. (Anlir is the guy with the big hat here.)
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Anlir,
But then, considering that conservative Christians consider us to be the scum of the earth
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this campaign, it’s that homosexual activists are the ones who consider conservative Christians to be “the scum of the earth.” Yet, I have never encountered a single Christian either in real life, or on the internet, who would ever agree with the sentiment that homosexually inclined people are “the scum of the earth.” No doubt, there are some somewhere who would, but they must be few and far between because I don’t know anyone who’s ever met one. Certainly no one on this site has expressed this view, but Anlir ascribes it to us anyway. Apparently, some homosexual activists engage in some serious projecting of their own feelings onto their opponents.
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#7 I’m a homosexual, and I think anti-pro-prop-8 violence is really dumb.
Happy now?
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Spinoza,
I’m a homosexual…
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the percentage of non-Christians posting on this website who are homosexual seems extraordinarily high? I wonder why that is.
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It’s the conservative Christians and the Mormons who spearheaded the campaign to declare gays as second-class citizens. It was a pure, unadulterated “hate” campaign. For them to now be shocked that the tables have been turned on them is the height of arrogance, hypocrisy, and stupidity. They thought gay people would go quietly. Well we aren’t.
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#11 It’s just you - living as you do in a world where all gays are in the closet, you are no doubt surprised by the number of people that actually are gay.
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Well then Anlir. I suppose if Homosexuals are justified in their violence then Pro-life advocates are also justified in their violence toward those who would abort babies?
Sauce for the Gander is good for the Goose too…
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Anlir,
It was a pure, unadulterated “hate” campaign.
No matter how often you repeat this, it doesn’t make it so. The nature of marriage is a worldview issue; it’s disingenuous to imply that it’s based on personal animosity. If the failure of a society to sanction “gay marriage” is evidence of “hate,” then every society in history has hated homosexuals. This is ridiculous. Even some homosexuals supported Yes on Prop 8.
For them to now be shocked that the tables have been turned on them is the height of arrogance, hypocrisy, and stupidity.
I don’t know that anyone is really shocked at the juvenile violent reactions. There have been plenty of indications prior to this that this would be the reaction.
They thought gay people would go quietly. Well we aren’t.
No, no one thought this. We were all aware that this issue wasn’t going to go away because of a ballot proposition.
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The amount of pure, unadulterated hate that wells within homosexuals is noteworthy. Christians should be afraid, very afraid, about where that hate will drive them next.
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Spinoza,
It’s just you - living as you do in a world where all gays are in the closet, you are no doubt surprised by the number of people that actually are gay.
Huh? Why would you presume that in all gays are in the closet in “my world?” What do you know about “my world?”
Anyway, I’ve heard some high estimates as to what percentage of the population is homosexual, but I’ve never heard anyone claim that it’s approximately 80 percent, which is what it would have to be if the numbers on this board are representative of the general population. It’s clearly not me, here, who has a distorted perception of reality.
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#16 Yes be terrified Christians - Boo! Isn’t sin and the devil SCARY?! Now where is all my pure, unadulterated hate? I must have misplaced it… darn
Well just because you’re paranoid Graceland doesn’t mean I’m not out to get you! (How was that?)
On a lighter note, Senator Stevens is now behind in the vote count:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/11/stevens_slips_i.html
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Make it Man,
As I said on the other anti-gay thread today, I’m opposed to violence. I prefer a more “Gandhi-like” response. But I’m all in favor of marching, protesting, picketing, chanting, non-violent resistance, civil disobedience, and all sorts of creative ways of getting the message across.
One must also remember that conservative Christians (among others) have sown the seeds of anti-gay hate in this country, which created the conditions that allowed violence and even death to be visited upon gay people. All I can say is your reap what you sow.
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#17 Well then I’ll have to give your theory more thought … hmmmm … 80% you say? And that was the non-Christians? Wow - gee I never noticed that! Yes there must be a reason then. Gays apparently just LOVE WMB! XOXOXO - but no one knows why …. I bet it’s the same reason that Tammy Faye Baker was so popular!!
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p.s. Do you use a lot of mascara, Ree? (Just askin’)
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Spinoza,
Sorry to confuse, but I’m just playing a game. I thought it would be fun to make silly statements like Anlir. Although I’ll admit, it needs some work. I’m just not as good of a strawman-maker.
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This is lame:
The amount of pure, unadulterated hate that wells within homosexuals is noteworthy. Christians should be afraid, very afraid, about where that hate will drive them next.
How lame is it?
The amount of pure, unadulterated hate that wells within evangelicals is noteworthy. Gays should be afraid, very afraid, about where that hate will drive them next.
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Jon Rowe and Spinoza,
Aside from the fact that I don’t actually believe any of those statements I made earlier, why do such worn-out generalizations strike a nerve with you when they demonize homosexuals, but not when they demonize Christians?
Anlir gets a free pass from our left-wingers when he brings out his usual strawman arguments. Why are you jumping on my back?
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Whenever ANYone disrespects a minority, an opponent, a class of people enough to make them non-human it is the beginning of genocide. Or should I say religicide or orientaticide?
Those who commit acts of violence have overstepped the bounds of democracy and morality. “If you live by the sword you will die by the sword” whoever you are.
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David L and tj, yesterday you were on my case for generalizing about Christians and for taking a single remark about the same incident here as a general labeling of homosexuals.
You can hurl tu quoque’s at me until you are blue in the face, but how about encouraging your fellow Christians to communicate in a better fashion. You are very quick to get on my case. You are very slow to apply the same standards to your own group.
I’m not surprised by the acts of violence, considering that homosexuals think they are better than everyone else, have an intense hatred of religion, and would generally prefer that all Christians die.
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the percentage of non-Christians posting on this website who are homosexual seems extraordinarily high? I wonder why that is?
I am a person who regularly posts on this web site. At the age of 64, and about to celebrate my 43rd wedding anniversary, I am quite certain of my sexual orientation. So?
Here is the thing I find striking about the conversations on this web site. Conservative Christians here point out that homosexuals in America are for the most part not “persecuted”–that is, they are seldom stoned or hung or deported or shot, etc. Homosexuals are of course frequently told they are sinners (and worse, but I haven’t stored a detailed inventory of insults I have read on this blog site over four years of participation).
To the Christians, this is “no matter.”
As a secular person, and not a religious believer, I would point out that Christians in America are not really persecuted. They are generally not hung on crosses, or stoned, or shot.
Yet there is generally a general air of whining, and feeling sorry for themselves, and complaining about how badly Christians are treated in America, etc.
I would put the general level of self-pity and complaining between the Christians on worldmagblog and the homosexuals on worldmagblog at just about the same level.
The flavor of each is somewhat different. Each group can’t taste the experience the other group has, so they dismiss it as imaginary or not real.
It’s like an argument comparing two different varieties of very cheap liquor. Perhaps a terrible beer vs. a terrible wine.
One group can’t taste the awful beer, so they say, “What are you complaing about?”
The other group can’t taste the awful wine, so they say, “What are you complaining about?”
So far this type of exchange has perhaps reached 10,000 comments. Yet no one seems to have any idea why they continue to repeat themselves over and over.
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What conservative Christians and Mormons did in California was throw themselves headlong into a political campaign. They pushed for a ballot initiative that took away the civil and legal rights of their fellow citizens. Now they’re trying to hide behind the walls of their church and claim an exemption from being protested, picketed, and so forth.
Not. gonna. work.
This time they went too far. And now the backlash is coming.
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There is a fundamental disconnect as to the view of what marriage is. That leads to the different takes on it’s legal status. Honest and decent people can take either side of the debate.
Invasions of private property, particularly in an armed state, are wrong - and dangerous, both to the those lawfully on the property and those invading it - and such actions are wrong.
I condemn the Phelps crowd just as strongly as I codemn the pro-gay trespassers. Both sets are equally wrong.
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Anlir,
This, like almost every statement you type here, is patently false to any objective observer:
“…a ballot initiative that took away the civil and legal rights of their fellow citizens.”
You are seriously unhinged. It’s like you’re living in a comic book, where you’re the hero fighting against some Gotham of evil cartoonish supervillains. You even talk like it.
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Spinoza writes:
#7 I’m a homosexual, and I think anti-pro-prop-8 violence is really dumb. Happy now?
Happier, yes
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#24 Ah - you were being sarcastic? Well whatever point you were trying to make in so doing completely escapes me - perhaps that’s why I mistakenly thought you were sincere.
Anlir gets a free pass from our left-wingers when he brings out his usual strawman arguments. Why are you jumping on my back?
There are scores of posters beating up on Anlir constantly - I don’t think he needs more. Your inept use of sarcasm, however, could use some attention.
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#30 Yes, well jus’ call me the gay moral majority - we don’t have any reporters headlining us with “Many Gays Not Reacting Violently to Prop 8 Decision”
Wonder why that is …
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“What conservative Christians and Mormons did in California was throw themselves headlong into a political campaign. They pushed for a ballot initiative that took away the civil and legal rights of their fellow citizens.”
The California Supreme court trampled on the rights of California citizens to preserve the definiton of marriage that has always obtained.
No one has ever had the right to marry whomever they please. Marriage laws in the US have always constrained marriage to two people of complementary sexes, sufficient age, not already married, and not too closely related. Those laws apply uniformly to all people, regardless of their preferred sexual behavior. There is no inequality. California allows gay couples full rights through civil unions. The California court case that overturned a voter initiative was decided on the specious argument that by not allowing those unions to be called “marriages” somehow harm was being done, for the first time asserting a constitutional right to define a word.
Christians and Mormons are not the aggressors here. The second ballot initiative sought to place the power to decide back in the hands of citizens after a renegade court, unsatisfied with the outcome of the democratic process, forced their social agenda through inventing nonexistent rights. The people spoke again, and now some people, who still have all the rights thy want, save the right to use a word in a way it was never used before, are rioting in the streets. This thuggish behavior, typical of brown shirted Germans and black shirted italians of a previous generation cannot be toelrated in a country that wants to preserve its liberty.
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Spinoza,
I agree the sarcasm could use some work, though I thought the point was quite clear. Sometimes I just feel like responding to all of Anlir’s inane statements about Christians with an equally inane statement about homosexuals.
To be honest, I’d prefer this forum were free of inane comments, but that doesn’t seem to be possible. Best I can do is keep the inanity balanced
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#34 “Best I can do is keep the inanity balanced :)”
I’d say yer workin’ on the wrong side then!
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Anlir,
I’m very glad that you support peaceful protest. However, it would further if you would denounce violent protest instead of defending it. Or seeming to. To wit:
One must also remember that conservative Christians (among others) have sown the seeds of anti-gay hate in this country, which created the conditions that allowed violence and even death to be visited upon gay people. All I can say is your reap what you sow.
If we reap what we sow, should I not also warn pro-choice people that they will reap what they sow since they’ve not only sown the seeds of anti-child hate, but actively murdered babies? The death count for that is…. well, lets just say there’s no real comparison to the numbers of dead babies and dead gay people. I don’t think there’s any less value to the individuals lives, mind you. I decry any taking of anyone’s life unless prescribed by law. All of us are worth of redemption in God’s eyes.
But if you prescribe violence and anarchy to support your position, then you can also fall by it…
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Mormon activism against gay marriage will only haunt Mitt Romney for years to come.
As for me, watching that bully hector and harass that sweet old granny, one thing came to mind. In the mid 80s men like the pro-sodomy marriage activists were the harmless guys you had no problem letting your girlfriend go shopping with.
Maybe you didnt appreciate their lifestyle preference, but you would never fear they’d be all up in arms out in the street.
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Contrary to Ken’s assertion, the bottom line is that gay people had the right to marry in California, and it was taken away from them. Marriage is a fundamental right, as affirmed by the California and US Supreme Court. It was the conservative Christians and Mormons (mainly) who went after the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens.
How would y’all like it if we had a ballot initiative that takes away the right of marriage from conservative Christians and Mormons? How would you like it if we put your rights up for a vote?
The ballot initiative was an abuse of the process in California. It was never intended to be used to take away people’s rights. It could have been used against blacks and Asians, and would have passed overwhelmingly at one time. It would have been wrong to have done it then and it’s wrong to do it now.
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Anlir,
While I agree with your stance regarding same-sex marriage, I think you are comparing two different things in your argument.
Marriage is currently defined as a union between a man and woman. Sex has nothing to do with it. While most marriages center around romantic love, that is not part of the definition as far as the state is concerned. That is why a single man and a single woman who are good friends (and nothing more) have the right to get married and receive the accompanying benefits.
To compare same sex marriage to race-related marriages is unfair. To deny blacks the “right” to marry would be to deny them what already exists as the definition of marriage…the union between a man and a woman.
To deny two men from marrying (whether they are homosexual or heterosexual) is to stay in keeping with the definition of marriage.
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Re: #37
In the mid 80s men like the pro-sodomy marriage activists were the harmless guys you had no problem letting your girlfriend go shopping with.
First of all, that’s such an idiotic stereotype. I don’t take girlfriends shopping. I run the football contest on Worldmag.
Folks were perfectly happy when gays kept their mouths shut and accepted their second-class status. But when gay people started asking for equality and their legal rights as American citizens, suddenly they’re a “raging mob”.
Well, you ain’t seen nothing yet. We are never giving up the fight for our freedom.
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As a follow up to 39,
This is why it would be SO much easier if marriage was released from the government of the State. Make it a union governed by the church.
And then let any two people, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, family status file for a civil union and grant them all the same benefits.
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This time they went too far. And now the backlash is coming.
There you go again, explaining away violence. Every time people get to vote on gay marriage they vote it down. Talk tough all you like.
The hypocrisy of these thugs is disgusting. And, as a side note, I’ll point out that Blacks in California voted 70% in favor of Prop 8. Hispanics voted for it in similar numbers. Are they “haters?” Well, no, because only whites can be haters. Particularly Christians and, for this issue only, Mormons.
What about Muslims? Now, there’s a group of people who really are filled with hate. How do you suppose they voted on Prop 8? Go demonstrate to them, you thugs, instead of abusing the very tolerance you accuse Christians of lacking. Perhaps some Christian doctor will take care of you when the Muslims have finished.
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Aside from the fact that I don’t actually believe any of those statements I made earlier, why do such worn-out generalizations strike a nerve with you when they demonize homosexuals, but not when they demonize Christians?
They bother me when they demonize both.
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“How would y’all like it if we had a ballot initiative that takes away the right of marriage from conservative Christians and Mormons? How would you like it if we put your rights up for a vote?”
Go for it through the same legislative voter process. Just dont riot in the streets when it doesnt pass.
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I’d like to quote Anlir from The “GOP Airs Jeremiah Wright Ad” thread:
BY Anlir 11.04.08 AT 12:11 AM
The scariest thing for many of us is that if Obama wins, the conservative Christians, who have become quite radicalized, will resort to violence. We’ll have our own Christian Taliban in America.
So, Anlir - How ’bout that gay activist taliban here in America?
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Re: #41
That would be a common-sense solution to the matter, wouldn’t it?
*****
Re: #42
Yes, but the vote is getting closer each time. Basically, only 3% more need to be persuaded. That’s doable in a few years.
History is not on the side of those who would deny others equality and freedom.
Remember, it was the Christian doctors in California who went to court to try and deny medical care to gay people. The doctor’s lost, by the way.
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“Well, you ain’t seen nothing yet. We are never giving up the fight for our freedom.”
ROFL
I just spent 5 minutes trying to find a text ROFLCOPTER cause this was so deserving. All i could find was a .gif though :\
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Yes, but the vote is getting closer each time. Basically, only 3% more need to be persuaded. That’s doable in a few years.
Anlir is exactly right about this.
All of those who think that same-sex marriage will ruin society need to be planning how they will cope when society is ruined.
Same sex marriage will be allowed in every state, likely in the next 10-15 years. The conservative base needs to learn that there are worse things than same-sex marriage.
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Jon Rowe,
It’s frustrating responding to you because unless I respond within an hour or so after you’ve posted, you tend to stop visiting the thread, and my responses, apparently, go unread. Nevertheless, here I go again.
Homosexuals are of course frequently told they are sinners
The insignificant little detail you left out here is that Christians who say this make no distinction between the sin of homosexual sex and our own sins, whatever they may be. It’s not as if our message is, “Too bad you guys are disgusting sinners instead of righteous Christians, like we are,” as you seem to imply.
Homosexuals (who are identified by their behavior, not their “orientation”) are sinners, just like the rest of us. What makes their particular sin exceptional is the push to force society to accept their sin as morally and socially acceptable.
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Klasko,
That was in response to those who were urging people to buy guns and ammunition and using apocalyptic language