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An 'urgency': Sensing threats to institutions of society, church leaders make declaration 
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Benevolent erudition
I always appreciate hearing people talk intelligently about religion, even when it has little to do with my particular rituals and worship. It just gives me a general sense of warmth that reason prevails sometimes, somewhere. In this article, the writer asks how the Catholic Church actually enforces excommunication. Good question, and I appreciate this clarification (the article specifically focuses on excommunicated priests):
The purpose of excommunication is not to drive priests away but to make them repent. Once they do, they are usually welcomed back into “full communion.” (The civil law equivalent of excommunication would be “contempt of court”: A judge can throw you in jail for refusing to testify, but the moment you agree to cooperate, you’re free.)
It’s a surprise to hear the Regular Press explaining such a delicate theological concept with such succinct and benevolent erudition. Thanks, Regular Press.
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Isnt that what Paul simply says, Toss the unrepentant out so that they will repent.
Unrepentant communing members need to be excommunicated and kicked out, for their own good, and for the good of the church.
Its not a wonder why denomination after denomination falls prey to the world and the far left when the church fails to excercise church discipline.
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Generally speaking, excommunication signifies a demand to worship of the church hierarchy rather than the deity.
Thorn: What do you mean by “church discipline”? And what is it that gives church elders, be they popes, deacons, board members or whatever, the right to tell another member that s/he is is not worshipping properly?
Isn’t faith such a personal matter that no one should have the right to tell another how exactly to worship the deity that s/he perceives?
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Something about excommunication I thought was funny was a line from my Western Civilization history textbook. It said something like this (concerning Pope Gregory VII and Henry IV, the Holy Roman Emperor):
“Throughout history, repeated excommunications of the same individual have had diminishing success.“
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Arcadia,
The idea of excommunication is not an organizationally constructed concept but one straight out of Scripture. And the standard for measurement (as to the sin being addressed) is not based on bishops, councils, or deacons, but on the standards of the Bible.
Matthew 18:15-17 gives a clear path for correction when someone has sinned and is not willing to deal with it on their own.
Matt 18:15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.16 “But if he does not listen {to you,} take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Very simple and very clear: go one-on-on to resolve the problem,if the person won’t repent; bring another objective party as witness, if no repentence; take it to the church for intervention, if no response; then excommunication both for the individual’s benefit and the protection of the body.
A process which desires the healing of both the individual and the church; the goal is restoration. If this pattern were followed more frequently and as designed, we would have a much healthier church and hopefully much healthier people. It is not an emotional, subjective process; it is objective and concise, with the Bible as the arbitor and basis for right and wrong.
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“And what is it that gives church elders, be they popes, deacons, board members or whatever, the right to tell another member that s/he is is not worshipping properly?”
Uh, “the Bible?”
“Isn’t faith such a personal matter that no one should have the right to tell another how exactly to worship?”
If religion is purely about a quiver in my liver and has nothing to do with first principles or the true nature of the universe, then it’s not religion anymore but mere theraputic philosophy. And if that’s your case, we have no basis for an intelligent discussion.
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Arcadia,
Unfortunately excommunication has been abused (perhaps far more than it has been used appropriately) as a tool for political power (either in “worldly” politics or church politics). The abuses are going to be much better known, both because bad news always spreads more easily than good news, and because when church discipline is done correctly, there is no spreading the knowledge of the sin more widely than is necessary.
When you say “worshipping properly” I don’t know if you have in mind a particular activity we call worship (what one does in the church service, for instance), someone’s beliefs about God, or the person’s whole life as a religious person. I hope you would agree, though, that there are some types of behavior that the church should not allow its members to continue and still be able to publicly call themselves faithful Christians.
The priests who molested children, for instance – wouldn’t it have been much better for the Catholic church to have exercised church discipline so that those priests could not continue as priests and continue molesting children? I know someone (from a Baptist church) whose husband both beat her and was unfaithful to her. He was a Sunday School teacher and considered for the office of deacon. Wouldn’t it have been right for the church discipline to have taken place? (Instead, when she got divorced, people of the church shunned her.)
The problem with church discipline is that it has so many times been used when there is not a good reason for it, and so rarely used when there is.
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Church discipline is right and sometimes necessary for unrepentant members of a church congregation. As I’ve always thought of it, excommunication basically means that the one so punished can’t go to heaven unless “un-excommunicated.” Is that definition not in use anymore?
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Rio,
You’re question about whether the term excommunication is a valid concept is interesting. In the past, it did refer to the belief that apart from the church (Catholic) there was no salvation. And so many would see the term as no longer useful. But the verse immediately following the Matt. 18 passage I refered to earlier you find this verse:
Matt 18:18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
The idea being that God has placed great power and responsibility in the hands of the church (general). And as long as the church leadership is prayerfully and biblically leading the flock (staying tuned into the heart of God), their decisions hold great power in the heavenlies. Pretty humbling and sobering stuff.
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“And as long as the church leadership is prayerfully and biblically leading the flock (staying tuned into the heart of God),”
Excellent point. The Greek construction is difficult to render properly in English, but I understand it to mean that when the church gathers to pray (18:18 should not be divorced contextually from the preceding verses that deal with progressive disciplinary process in the community of believers) its decisions don’t force God to ratify them, but rather, after individual agendas are cancelled out and the mind of God is sought, they reflect what He has already decided. See Acts 15; “It seems good to the Holy spirit and us”
“Generally speaking, excommunication signifies a demand to worship of the church hierarchy rather than the deity.”
Whoever the general that speaks thusly, he is wildly inaccurate. Excommunication by definition removes the individual from the communiion of the saints. Under Roman Catholicism that necessarily entails separation from the sacraments that are the means of grace so salvation would be imperiled. It is the failure to repent of teaching grave theological error or practices repugnant to Christian living that occasion excommunication. Obedience to received traditions equate to “worshipping the church heierarchy” only in the most lurid and rhetorically unhinged imagination.
Your contention that faith is a personal matter is absurd. The Christian faith as it has been practiced and understood throughout its two millenia history, is not contentless. It has historical, doctrinal, social and communal aspects. It includes personal choice, but it does not stop there.
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Found on my “original footprint on the Web” site:
• Discipline in the Church
• Church Discipline
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In re: 2
Arcadia,
Excommunication doesnt put any emphasis on worshipping the church over the diety. I’m not even sure how you get to that conclusion.
Pastor David lays it out from scripture quite well. Pauline also gives a nice example. I hope that helps you understand. Realize it is directed toward communing members who have made an OPEN profession of faith in front of the church. Any agency, governing body, business, culture has the inherent right to kick out those who later deny their beliefs. The church especially, as the bible gives it that authority, whether governed by popes or brought to a vote at the congregational level like in the PCA.
“Isn’t faith such a personal matter that no one should have the right to tell another how exactly to worship the deity that s/he perceives?”
The christian faith isnt just personal. Does anyone here hold it inside? Further, christians have the right to tell you so, because christians are right. There is One God. The God of the Bible to whom you are called to repent and believe.
Every christian has that right to tell you so, but church discipline (excommunication) only occurs when you say the same yet refuse to live like it.
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