Obama to delay “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal
Does Barack Obama plan to govern from the center, or is he just avoiding making Bill Clinton’s mistakes? As I report in this week’s issue of WORLD, some analysts view Obama’s hiring a plethora of former Clinton officials as a sign that the new prez may not be a stealth radical after all, but rather a New Democrat — moderate on fiscal and foreign policy, and liberal on social issues. (Not all analysts think that, BTW.)
Now comes news that Obama does not plan to move quickly on his campaign promise to lift the ban on gays in the military, possibly delaying such a push even until 2010. The Washington Times reports:
Mr. Obama’s gay-ban pledge was not a major campaign issue. However, he provided a policy statement to the Human Rights Campaign, the largest U.S. gay rights group, pledging to repeal the exclusion and to invite back service members discharged under the law. He also said that he wants the Pentagon to school military people on how to treat gays.
“The eradication of this policy will require more than just eliminating one statute,” he told the group, in a statement posted on their Web site. “It will require the implementation of anti-harassment policies and protocols for dealing with abusive or discriminatory behavior as we transition our armed forces away from a policy of discrimination. The military must be our active partners in developing those policies and protocols.”
The law states that open homosexuality in the ranks would be detrimental to combat unit readiness.
Delaying the congressional vote a year would give those in favor of lifting the ban time to build support, but it would also let their opposition organize and possibly sway public opinion, as they did in 1993, when Bill Clinton tried to lift the ban but wound up having to compromise with “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Aubrey Sarvis, executive director of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Fund, which supports lifting the ban, said national polls show that, unlike in 1993, the public supports removing the ban. Mr. Sarvis expressed optimism that Democratic gains in the past two elections make it “more likely” Congress will let gays serve openly.
Gay activists point out that gays currently serve honorably and effectively in the military and that’s absolutely true. The concern many Pentagon officials have is the effect of open homosexuality on unit cohesion and morale.
Robert Knight, director of the Culture and Media Institute at the Media Research Center, said, “It’s true that many in the military have looked the other way and served alongside people they know are into homosexuality. But that is with the ban in place. Open acceptance would change the atmosphere entirely. If fraternization is a problem now between men and women, imagine the conflicts with openly gay officers who no longer have to be reticent.”
The Washington Times piece is fairly thorough. Please read it before commenting on this thread.
SCEPTER ALERT: This thread is closed to arguments about homosexuality, per se. Comments not directly related to the plusses and minuses of allowing gays to serve openly in the military are not allowed on this thread.
SCEPTER ALERT II: Please keep this thread reasoned and scrupulously scrubbed of personal attacks. That’s an order.



WORLD Magazine Library powered by Amazon
Term Life Insurance at Savings up to 75%!
Logos Bible Software for Bible Study
Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Free Hardcover ESV Study Bible!


















back to top31 Comments to “Obama to delay “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal”
Aye, aye, Ma’am!
So what’s the difference between women in the military and open gays in the military?
Report comment to moderator
So two points come to mind:
1) this does not seem to be an official statement by the Obama administration on policy, but rather a leak. It would seem that we should wait for an official statement by the Obama administration before reaching conclusions
2) as noted in:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/world/europe/21britain.html
it appears that homosexuals are serving in the British military without difficulty. And the British military is and has been actively involved in combat in a variety of spheres
I think I am reminded of Truman’s executive order integrating the military in the late 1940s. In the end this will at worst be a tempest in a teapot.
Report comment to moderator
“So what’s the difference between women in the military and open gays in the military?”
Women may legally serve in the military. Homosexuals may not. Homosexuality is incompatible with military service according to federal law. The so-called “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy is a presidential directive that suggests that the military not aggressively investigate homosexuality with a view to enforcing the law. The law itself still stands.
Report comment to moderator
1. Women can be put in separate sleeping quarters to avoid sexual tension.
Report comment to moderator
#4 KBells women can be but sometimes are not put in separate sleeping quarters.
When I went to the Army Medical Depts Officer Basic course, one of the big shocks was that women were put in the same tents as men.
Gals were essentially required to undress and change in their sleeping bags. Sometimes you at least had a blanket strung up with 550 parachutist’s cord. It allowed for some privacy when you didnt have an actual “changing tent”.
Meanwhile.. how will the gay communtiy react to BHO’s decision? I foresee the same crew that went on youtube-documented rampages will go out and demonstrate in front of recruitmt depots. Can’t you hear it now? In unison now, fellas: “Let us serve! Let us serve!! Let us serve!”
The gays rushing to join up now that we’re fighting two simultaneous wars can’t be all that numerous, no?
Report comment to moderator
As to the primary question, it seems to me that BHO will just be Clinton Light, with less control over Bill’s children that he’s purposefully surrounded himself with or who just came with the party affiliation. I don’t think BHO has the gloved fist guiding charisma that characterized the Clinton machine and he’s presently doing what he can to deal with the Clinton’s, and their loyal minions, by putting them where he thinks he can control them best. IMO a futile exercise for BHO as it seems Jesse’s threatened surgical procedure may have already occurred sometime in the past—perhaps at some familial request.
The real problems of the country, of which DA-DT is not in the ballpark, are not on BHO’s radar because it’s still GWB’s watch—even though the 20% market dive since the election is clearly his threatened tax raising fault. Because of this BHO thinks he can continue to skate in this mode until January 20 and not make any moves or give any signals of his intentions using the excuse that he’d be “walking on” GWB’s presidency. I’m sure the media will continue to provide cover, placating the teaming ignorant who voted for him, but the other half of the country, and especially the informed among them, are clearly looking for something to be done. If whatever that may be is actually good for the country or not won’t surprise anyone and we will deal with it as we must—as always.
The point is that the leader needs to lead and quit screwing around with ignorance like DA-DT and arranging deck chairs.
Report comment to moderator
While I prefer quicker action, “slow and deliberate” is fine. Given the success of the Brits, the Canadians, and other western nations, I don’t see any reason why America won’t also be successful. We need the best people we can get for the military.
The other thing I would point out is that an individual serving in the military is expected to be honest and honorable. We should not be asking people to be dishonest or lie in order to serve their country.
Report comment to moderator
“he wants the Pentagon to school military people on how to treat gays”
Oh, that sounds like a fun class. That’ll be well-received, yesiree. Goodbye, best-qualified volunteers.
Of course field grade officers will gladly toe the line and mandate the training, because for them, career trumps logic and you don’t do anything to tick off Washington.
I’m a veteran who now works at a huge multi-national conglomerate, and we had all tolerance classes, but when it came to homosexuality, we were allowed to voice our opinion, even if it went against the party line, as long as we were respectful about it. I hope these classes allow the same freedom.
Report comment to moderator
The strategy depends on the parties’ view of “the middle.” How wide is the middle and is it flat or does it tilt left or right?
Obama may need to consider the points Lynn raises but the Republicans probably face more uncertainty. The election changed the script for homosexuality as it changed the script for abortion. Unlike Bill Clinton, Obama repeatedly stated clear positions, so he cannot be accused of fooling the voters, whether or not they agree with him.
This time around Republicans will have to decide whether being the Party of God still works for them or is political suicide.
If Obama wants to be Machiavillian, he’ll defer this issue long enough to see whether Republicans can sort themselves out. If they move in his direction, he’ll lead them into the light. If they must start another battle in the culture wars, he’ll stand back and let the crossfire among Republicans do the fighting.
Report comment to moderator
#1 Arcadia, that question deserves a hysterical punchline, but I’ll be danged if I can think of one!
Report comment to moderator
Some insights that I have uncovered:
1) Lesbians seem to be overrepresented among typical female military servicewomen. If we are going to have women in the military, do we really want to bar this class who tend to be the best soliders.
2) Re gay men, they are not stereotypical “macho” or “masculine” but you’ll still find good ones among the Army and Marines. They tend to disproportionately concentrate in two areas: 1) the Navy, where men are packed in closed quarters and absent from women for long periods of time, and 2) among linguists. I’ve long believed that male homosexuality is correlated with higher levels of creativity and high verbal intelligence. This is just a hypothesis and I’m not a social scientist. But when I see some shockingly high number of gay male military Arabic translators dismissed, it just made me more confident in my theory.
The military is all about utility. Follow the damn orders and get the job done. I’ll listen to your utilitarian arguments against gays serving openly in the military; but unfortunately, on these threads and from high up they boil down to you wanting to impose your MORAL standards on the military (see the infamous statements of the disgraces Peter Pace), which given the amount of drunkenness and whoring that takes place on the weekends is a hypocritical joke. And I’m certain that many of the military bloggers will chime in and confirm this.
Report comment to moderator
Jon, easy answer to #1: No, women in the military isn’t a good idea.
I don’t think the moral issue is the biggest one, as far as the military is concerned. I think the biggest issue is that male-on-male lust is a serious detraction to military morale. If morality were the biggest issue, don’t ask don’t tell wouldn’t be implemented. DADT basically says keep your hands and eyes to yourself, and don’t distract your fellow soldiers by “coming out of the closet,” and we don’t care if you are homosexual. The moment we start allowing overt homosexuality is the moment we lose that much more of our military morale, and that many more good soldiers. (I wouldn’t want my son to serve in such an army!)
Report comment to moderator
It may be that the best reason for postponing DADT are the other issues that on the plate: economy and healthcare. Obama has shown a great deal of sense about picking the battles — this won’t please the left, but his reluctance buys credibility with the center.
Fwiw, same could be said as to why he won’t be picking up FOCA anytime soon, as well.
Report comment to moderator
Re: #11
The preposterous idea that male homosexuals can’t or won’t control themselves is entirely laughable. We were told the same thing in regards to black men and integration. There was tremendous fear among white folk that black men wouldn’t or couldn’t control themselves around white women. It’s fear-mongering tactic not based in reality. The Brits, the Canadians, the Israeli’s, and other western governments report no such problems.
Suffice it to ask, what do you think would happen to a gay guy in the military if he didn’t control himself? First, the men in his unit would likely teach him a lesson. Second, he’d be in the brig for breaking military policy.
I hate to break it to CherylD, but you can’t catch “the gay”. Your worries about your son are illogical.
Report comment to moderator
Harris, I think you are right. He will go gradually slowly with incremental changes. Clinton seemed content to go full speed ahead, in effect shoving Gays in Military down our throats.
I do wonder about the eventual court case which will emerge when we allow “committed gays” to join the military openly. They will resent not drawing all the housing pay and other bennies now given to married straights who have on-post subsidized housing or else use a housing allowance to rent off base.
We will see a challenge to the non-recognition of what are after-all gay “common law” marriages. A Federal judge will decree that committed gay couples must be treated like a marriage if one or both are in any armed forces. And Federal recognition will require all 50 states (or at least those with bases in them) to recognize those unions.
It is this distant but not unlikely scenario which scares most opponents of homosexuals serving in uniform
Report comment to moderator
The Brits, the Canadians, and others have dealt just fine with the “housing” issue for gay couples. There is no reason that America won’t do just as well.
Side note:
Conservative Christians must have a mandatory “style” book when it comes to gays:
1. “Shove down our throats” (there seems to be a inordinate focus on those particular words).
2. “Gay agenda”
3. “Militant homosexuals”/”militant” gays”
They seem incapable of talking about gay people without attaching at least one pejorative qualifier. It reminds me of how my grandpa used to talk about black people. He never had anything good to say about them.
End side note.
In any event, if DADT is repealed I feel confident the military will salute and follow orders just as they did when Truman ordered integration. Sure there will be resentments and some hold outs, just as there are still a few on integration and more than a few on women in the military. But, by and large the policy will be implemented successfully.
As the Brits and other have pointed out, they want the best to serve in the military. As they have well concluded, a person’s sexual orientation has no bearing on their ability to perform the tasks at hand and serve their country honorably. Here! Here!
Report comment to moderator
I appreciate everyone staying on topic on this thread. A little segue there from Anlir, but not too shabby overall. Thanks!
Report comment to moderator
This is a wise decision. Obama needs to focus on the economy and foreign policy and not get bogged down in controversy to start.
Report comment to moderator
YAWN
really there’s nothing to fuss about. My only note here is the swing to the middle that has occured after the election. Democrats have bought the media line about center right nation even though they get elected on a center-left platform.
As for gays in military: Any person who feels threatened by working in close quarters with gay men and women lacks confidence in their own sexuality (not necessarily preference but other facets also). The loss of talent and skills to the military due to fear based on ignorance is one the American army cannot afford.
It would be interesting to know if the numerous American “contractor” firms (re: mercenary armies) in Iraq also have the same policy. I’m sure if they run a business efficiently and competently they would gladly hire Arab linguist without worrying about their off hours activities. If Blackwater can tolerate a drunken mercenary killing an Iraqi guard than gay men won’t be a problem.
Report comment to moderator
The main concern is not that people who choose to be “gay” are in the military. If no one knows, who cares. The concern is what open acceptance and promotion of “men on men” will do to morale.
My son joined the Marines to be one of the few, the proud. How many young men will sign up to be part of “The Few, The Proud, The Queer”? They will have to start a draft to get anyone who actually wants to fight.
Report comment to moderator
They will have to start a draft to get anyone who actually wants to fight.
Why? Are the few, the proud scared of gay men?
Report comment to moderator
How many young men will sign up to be part of “The Few, The Proud, The Queer”?
Young men who are not homophobic idiots should have no problem serving alongside homosexuals.
Report comment to moderator
And proud of it.
Report comment to moderator
The problem is that the possibility of sexual subtexts (or aggression), whether open or ambiguous, is detrimental to unit cohesion and morale, which, as a soldier, your life literally depends on. Similar to the problems that arise when men and women are tossed together in close quarters. Living intimately together at every level, soldiers must become a band of brothers, and this can be achieved only if there is no suspicion of ulterior motivation as they learn to trust and love each other as brothers. Inject sex into such a context and in come unnecessary drama, power issues, inequality of treatment (whether perceived or real), gossip, jealousy, resentment, revulsion, heartbreak, harassment, and distraction.
Our ancestors, who knew something of sexual passion, would be astonished how we try to talk away Eros as such a neutered, tame, incidental little thing. Or maybe to jaded moderns, sexuality is ultimately a trifle and a bore, and sex just a mechanical reflex, like a dog scratching his ear.
Report comment to moderator
Well put, Kwerna.
Report comment to moderator
A very good friend of mine is a member of UK’s Special Forces SAS “The elite of the elite”. He has been deployed in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. He has been credited with saving the lives of at least 4 men in his unit, and has been very well decorated and has been injured himself while on duty. He also happens to be gay. When I was last in the UK, I met up with him and some of his unit mates for a pint of beer. The topic came up and I asked one of his mates if it was an issue. His response was… “he’s gay (and pointing at another guy), and he’s a wanker. What’s your point?”
One of the things that being in the military does is prepares young people to work as a team, a skill that they will take with them back into civilian life. Learning to work with people who have different beliefs, different skin color, different eye color, different life experiences and different sexual orientation can only help as the person gets older. And if we are really lucky, perhaps they will learn to look at a person as a person and team mate first.
John M. I hope the classes are as open as the one you describe as well. Only by getting the questions asked and answered will we dispel the myths, misconceptions and outright lies that exist about gay people in general.
Report comment to moderator
Kwerna: For one you’re assuming that a homosexual can’t contain his lusts, even with military training to do so.
The second problem with your argument is that the anti-gay policies in the military extend well beyond the battlefield. For example, at a time when we desperately need people who can translate Arabic to English, the military discharged at least 20 of them for no offense other than being homosexual.
These were not people in combat. These were people working in offices doing highly important national security work, told they were not suitable to do because of a trait that had absolutely no bearing on their jobs.
How is that not blatant discrimination?
Report comment to moderator
Steve G.,
Because the military is under a Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy, I rather assume that the 20 people fired had themselves made an issue out of something that should have had no bearing on their job.
What advantage would possibly go to the military in changing this policy? Yes, I know a small handful of soldiers would feel better (and a larger percentage would be made uncomfortable), but I’m afraid the costs would far, far outweigh their personal emotions on the issue.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl: If a person’s sexuality has no bearing on the work they do, and the unit cohesion argument isn’t even in play, why should it matter?
Do you seriously think it’s more important to enforce the anti-gay rule than it is to improve national security? There’s the advantage to the military … they can make an issue of it and fire the same translators that they then complain about not having enough of and desperately needing more of …. or they can apply the modicum of common sense needed to realize that in this case at least, sexual orientation has no relevance to the work.
I know anti-gay people define “making an issue of it” as meaning, not staying properly in the closet, but the rest of us seriously don’t see what the problem is.
Report comment to moderator
Yes, I know a small handful of soldiers would feel better (and a larger percentage would be made uncomfortable), but I’m afraid the costs would far, far outweigh their personal emotions on the issue.
Did you miss the fact that in this specific example we’re talking about people who are not in battlefield situations? They work in offices. Their homosexuality should not matter any more than that of the accountant who works in the office down the hall, or of the middle manager you sometimes see in the kitchen.
Let’s say, just for the sake of argument, that there is a valid case to be made for banning open homosexuality in battlefield conditions (even though the problem is more with the homophobes than the homosexuals, IMO) … how can that possibly apply in cases where the soldier’s job is in an office, not a battlefield?
Report comment to moderator
I have no problem with homosexuals giving military haircuts, decorating offices and organizing parades.
Report comment to moderator