Apologize?
Jim Wallis says James Dobson owes America an apology. I get really depressed when Christian leaders are mad at each other, so I wanted to know what the problem was that was serious enough to break the unity God is so bullish on.
Wallis, author of God’s Politics and editor in chief of Sojourners, takes great offense at a letter Focus on the Family’s Dobson circulated before the election, an anonymous futuristic scenario titled “Letter From 2012 in Obama’s America.”
Can we talk? Because this concerns the question of what is the legitimate and godly use of the power of the pen. Dobson’s letter says that based on the trajectory of Barack Obama’s past actions (which, it seems to me, is a legitimate basis for expectations of future actions) we may forecast certain developments in the next four years:
We have old justices on the Supreme Court. Not much of a wildcard there. Their replacements won’t be made in the image of Roberts or Scalia. It’s not crazy to imagine same-sex marriage as a new “Constitutional” right sweeping all state laws off the books in a single blow. It’s not hard to imagine the court ruling that anti-discrimination laws that include sexual orientation be extended to private institutions like schools. It’s not whack to imagine public high school “Meet You at the Pole” prayer meetings being banned as “proselytizing” speech. It’s not far fetched to imagine radio programs that air full Bible truth being outlawed as “hate speech.” That’s just the way the wind is blowing.
Wallis’s critique is remarkable for not addressing the merits of Dobson’s case. He just keeps calling it “political incivility” and “negative” and “slander” and promoting of “fear.” But few prophets are cheery souls. And faithful watchmen are almost never loved.

















Click to Print
Include Comments











back to top77 Comments to “Apologize?”
I, for one, am thankful that people like James Dobson has the guts to say what needs to be said. He is a smart and God Fearing man.
Report comment to moderator
Andree, I am glad you brought this up. I really, really want to like J. Wallis et al, because I believe their stated goals of justice for the oppressed and mercy for the poor cannot be argued if one is a member of Christ’s kingdom. For several years I have been receiving Sojourners’ weekly emails and daily “Verse and Voice”. I have also been a subscriber and a contributor. There is much worth considering in what is said.
But lately I am noticing an aggression and animosity in Sojourners which seem to encourage scorn and disunity. Maybe I am just becoming more discerning – or maybe I’m imagining it. But I also read Dobson’s “letter” and agree that Wallis went out of his way to distance himself from Dobson’s position without acknowledging any merit in it whatsoever. And I agree, it’s depressing; more like playground rivalries than ministries doing their best to serve the same Lord.
Report comment to moderator
What Dobson offered is a worst case scenario, which rarely happens. Still, it’s something to consider. His predictions are a pathway that, while still not cleared, has had quite a few of the brambles moved out of the way.
I don’t trust Obama, but then I don’t trust ANYONE, Democrat or Republican, whose job takes place within the Beltway.
I suspect that President-elect Obama will have to modify his tune once he’s read on to classified presidential information to which he was not privy when he made so many sweeping and eloquent whatever-I-have-to-say-to-get-elected promises. Promises that will not be implemented with the same ease with which they were promised.
Having said that, Obama’s presidency is likely to move us down that path.
We got to choose how painful it was going to be for us.
Report comment to moderator
It’s not hard to imagine the court ruling that anti-discrimination laws that include sexual orientation be extended to private institutions like schools.
Could anyone sketch a plot for this nightmare?
See Emily’s adjacent thread about the apology for racism. Since Bob Jones U. maintained racist policies until 2000 (i.e. just as long as it wanted to), perhaps y’all can manage homophobic policies until Obama discloses himself as the Anti-Christ, which won’t be until after the Rapture. By that time, homosexuals will be the only people left at Bob Jones U., not to mention WMB. Oh yes, we’ll know who you are then!
Report comment to moderator
I read the letter (or at least started it) without knowing Dobson sent it out. It struck me as conservative fearmongering … my precise thought was that God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love, and a sound mind. As Klasko noted worst-case scenarios rarely happen, but furthermore, I see no biblical warrant for fearmongering. One could, I suppose, argue that Samuel did such when he warned Israel what would happen when they chose a king … however, he was speaking the words of God, which this letter’s author didn’t claim to be doing.
I agree the disunity is sad, and reflects an internal struggle within evangelicalism that has yet to discover that the battle isn’t either-or, it’s both-and (truth AND justice; abortion AND financial help). But I can’t fault Wallis for his reaction because frankly, I rejected the letter myself for its tone.
Report comment to moderator
There are a few things in Dobson’s letter that could probably happen. Maybe. If you call that “merit,” then sure. Wallis took a bad tack in demanding an apology. But there are others (four major terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, gas at $7/gal, the loss of gun rights etc.) that were both pure scare tactics and have little direct relevance to the Bible. Beyond the question of whether or not they’re actually going to happen (I doubt that 90% of them will), the whole strategy of the letter was to inspire fear, and I don’t think that’s the way that Christians ought to go about politics. That’s the way that non-Christians do it, and if we play by the world’s rules we’ll get the world’s treasures. Most Christians that I know (and these are orthodox, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving, missions-minded folks) were incredibly turned off by the letter.
Also, remember that there is only so much that a President can do, even with both houses in his same party. So even if all of the things in the letter are things that Obama actually wants to do (which I highly doubt; I haven’t heard anything hate-speech-related from him) I doubt that a lot of it will actually happen, especially considering the general inertia of the population.
Neither Wallis nor Dobson appeal a whole lot to me; they both seem blinded by their political worldviews instead of transformed by the Gospel. Singing Sand is right; they’re more like kids on the playground than ministers of the Gospel. This time, I agree with Wallis, however obnoxious he was in asking for it– Dobson’s letter was unfair, unhelpful, and un-Christ-like. He chose to capitalize on people’s fears (some legitimate, most illegitimate IMO) and squeeze whatever power he could out of that. He ought to apologize.
Report comment to moderator
I also read the letter and found myself somewhat repelled, but not for the content. I had no problem seeing many of these scenarios coming to pass. My repulsion was due more to my own personal election burnout. It is interesting to note than many previous “prophets” preaching from the wilderness have painted similar scenarios (Francis Schaeffer, Justice Bork, etc.) and to a great extent, their visions of the future have come to pass. We are living in the times foretold by these godly voices. For Dobson, or others, to follow the thread to the next generation of challenges is by no means wrong, or even divisive; though it may be hard to hear. We need to take it for what it is, a timely warning of the coming destruction that comes with spiritual compromise.
Report comment to moderator
I am violating my suggestion, but not to comment on anything today. I am just reminding “rebels” of my request that you take one day’s break from posting. We tell my granddaughter to say “Please.” Please take one day break from posting. We tell RG to say “Thank you.” Thank you.
I am setting a good example for RG.
If I have offended or intimidated anyone, I apologize. We tell our granddaughter to apologize if she is rude to anyone.
Report comment to moderator
Predictions about the future? Well yes, and unlike the brokerage house disclaimers we CAN predict future performance based on past performance of any politicians. NARAL is presumably on OBama’s speed dial and rolodex. No one will get tapped for any Supremes vacancy unless he/she genuflects at the Roe v Wade idol. Should anyone–even Wallis– be surprised to learn that?
I applaud Dobson. Some years back there was a scary futuristic letter. A young mother and her husband had concluded that their toddler was too much of a hassle and were taking him to be euthanized at a “clinic”. The woman’s mother was understandably concerned, upset etc. The mother gently reminds the grandmother that it was no different than the abortions grandma had in the early 70s. It was actually in the best interest of the child to have him euthanized.
I dont recall anyone raising an uproar about this “letter” which was in circulation long before we began hearing stories of infants found abandoned/dead in dumpsters etc
Report comment to moderator
Also, prophets and watchmen call their people to repent, obey, and remain faithful to the Lord. They do not call people to do what they were already kinda thinking about doing anyway and they do not say something is going to happen in the future unless they’ve received it from the Lord.
Report comment to moderator
Jim Wallis is not a Christian leader.
Report comment to moderator
Jim Wallis is very much a leader in the ‘Emergent Church’ movement, along with Brian McLaren, and Tony Campolo -
Report comment to moderator
Brian D. McLaren, Author, Speaker, Activist – Emergent Church
Tony Jones, National Coordinator, Emergent Village- which is part of the “Emergent Church” movement
Jim Wallis, President, Sojourners
Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church
Robert Schuller, Founder, Crystal Cathedral and Hour of Power
________The LETTER________
Khaleej Times Online
Christian leaders ask for Muslim forgiveness
(Wam)
26 November 2007
“ABU DHABI-Peaceful relations between Muslims and Christians stand as one of the central challenges of this century, according to leading Christian leaders.”
Part of letter below which is in the article:
“Muslims and Christians have not always shaken hands in friendship; their relations have sometimes been tense, even characterized by outright hostility. Since Jesus Christ says, “First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbour’s eye” (Matthew 7:5), we want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the “war on terror”) many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbours. Before we “shake your hand” in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world.”
Report comment to moderator
I can’t believe Andree wrote ‘whack’!
Report comment to moderator
I could almost understand muslim anger over perceived atrocities done in the Middle Ages. But we too often let ancient historical incidents excuse away modern day mistreatmt of Christian minorities in muslim majority nations. “You deserve second class citizenship because of what European co-religionists did way way back!” Ludicrous!!
Report comment to moderator
Indy, her writing has gone from intensely personal (some would say spiritual navel gazing) to the big macro philosophical headline issues others on WMB regularly address.
Andree, can you on occasion go back to your unique niche? Some things require a bullhorn but others need that small still barely-audible voice
Report comment to moderator
“Jim Wallis is very much a leader in the ‘Emergent Church’ movement…”
Like I said…
Report comment to moderator
David L –
YES!
Report comment to moderator
PASTORDAVID . . . (Francis Schaeffer, Justice Bork, etc.) and to a great extent, their visions of the future have come to pass.
Prove or demonstrate it.
Report comment to moderator
Scroop –
I don’t have the time to address the host of examples, but here are a few resources:
Bork: “Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline”
Schaeffer: “How Should We Then Live?”, “Whatever Happened To The Human Race?”, “The Church Before The Watching World”, “A Christian Manifesto”, and a host of personal speeches.
Report comment to moderator
When you have a moment, Pastor, name one or two examples of the fulfillment of Schaeffer and Bork prophesies. Otherwise, it’s kind of silly of you to bring it up, not to mention a waste of time.
Report comment to moderator
Good Post, Victoria.
Report comment to moderator
Well Victoria, I see what you mean. What farmer would have thought that cucumbers would be so important today – when compared to ethanol (that no one thought of either). You can get free condoms by the dozen from any old community activist anywhere but getting the cucumber to practice on still costs more than most people can afford with the economy the way it is.
The Messiah should be passing out fresh, as well as, free cucumbers too don’t you think? By the time the grocery store throws them out in the garbage because of extreme age, just like baby boomers, those once crisp veggies are pretty limp and nearly shot for proper sex trade education. Normally lefties would dive into any dumpster to retrieve even a half working cucumber but they expect them to be given to them now. Where is that Messiah when they really need him?
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
Andree drew the prophet analogy; that’s why I posted about the characteristics of a true prophet.
Report comment to moderator
Scroop,
“Otherwise, it’s kind of silly of you to bring it up, not to mention a waste of time.”
Do you really think condescension and insults are going to motivate me to suspend my other responsibilities to deliniate resources for your satisfaction? I used the example I did because I thought many of the posters here would understand my meaning.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 25 and 10
A true prophet makes a prophecy, if it becomes a fact, then they are a TRUE prophet, if the prophecy doesn’t they are a false prophet.
In the ‘Letter’ there is NO prophecy, none – so in essence there is no reason to bring it up, other than to put a thought or question the intent of the ‘letter’ -
YOU WRITE POST 6
“Most Christians that I know (and these are orthodox, Bible-believing, Jesus-loving, missions-minded folks) were incredibly turned off by the letter.”
This isn’t true at all –
YOU also go on to post in #6
“Dobson’s letter was unfair, unhelpful, and un-Christ-like. He chose to capitalize on people’s fears (some legitimate, most illegitimate IMO) and squeeze whatever power he could out of that. He ought to apologize.”
If Believers EVERYWHERE had been looking and watching the entire situations which I stated earlier in post #21 (1-7) would not have happened. Instead we have those like yourself, who are more than willing to pooh-pooh the whole letter expecting an apology, when NO APOLOGY is necessary, in fact the letter should awaken every single Christian ready to defend our values instead of cowering in the corner, belittling Dr. James Dobson -
Report comment to moderator
so David L, Christ has entrusted you with the responsibility to decide who is and isn’t a Christian?
Report comment to moderator
Contemporary examples of slouching toward Gomorrah:
Electing a president who defeated a bill to mercifully save infants born alive during botched abortion procedures and who sat supinely under a black preacher who espoused toxic racial views against white people
Massachusetts and Connecticut allowing “gay” marriage
Tenured radicals in schools and college who teach moral and cultural relativism
State and federal justices who usurp legislative powers
Confiscatory federal, state, and local taxes
Christian blogs that allow anti Christian trolls to denigrate evangelical and orthodox religion
One could go on; the above should suffice.
When the history of our time is written Robert Bork and Francis Schaeffer will be viewed as prophets who spoke hard truths about the patent decadence of modern society.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
Andree mentioned the prophet thing (and I’m sure she meant to use the word in a very broad sense), and I commented on that. Read the last few sentences of her original post; that’s where the prophet comment came from. I don’t think anyone meant to infer that Dobson heard a voice from God telling him about what will happen by 2012. But I didn’t sense any sort of prophetic call in Dobson’s words– he was preaching to the choir, so to speak, and the only act that he called people to was political activism, which is only a small sliver of our calling as Christians. Andree deliberately brought up the prophet/watchman thing and I wanted to contest that.
Most of the Christians that I know were incredibly turned off by the letter. You say “this isn’t true at all.” Do you know all my friends and did you talk to them about it? If not, how can you say that the Christians I know weren’t turned off by the letter?
You have not commented on whether or not Dr. Dobson’s use of fear was legitimate or illegitimate, which I believe is the best point that Wallis made (and, from what I’ve read, he doesn’t make a whole lot of them.) As far as I can tell, Dr. Dobson has acted just like non-Christian political activists act– he used fear to motivate people to vote so that our special interest group will have more power. When we cast political events into an incredibly apocalyptic light and view political power as the key prize in the culture wars, we look just like every other special interest group and not like the Body of Christ. As Christians, we’re called to something better.
I don’t want to “pooh-pooh the whole letter.” I’m a medical student and I am very uncomfortable about what could happen to conscience rights under Obama (among other things.) But by blowing everything out of proportion and using fear instead of careful, thoughtful reasoning, Dr. Dobson’s good points were lost in a sea of bad ones.
I feel like your last paragraph is a bit derogatory and not conducive to civil conversation. I would appreciate it if you explained a little more clearly why you thought Dr. Dobson’s letter was appropriate (especially in regards to the more extreme “possibilities” like the end of campus ministry groups and 4 major terrorist attacks) and dealt with the concerns that Wallis and others had with the letter.
Report comment to moderator
Do you really think condescension and insults are going to motivate me to suspend my other responsibilities to deliniate resources for your satisfaction?
There was no insult, other than the condescension itself.
You don’t have to satisfy me, but even blogs recognize some generally accepted rhetorical standards, and your post didn’t deserve a lot of respect, coming from a learned pastor. All you had to do was name one or two prophesies that have come to pass, and it’s amusing that you haven’t.
Look how easy it was for Pumpkin, though some of his examples haven’t happened, some are salubrious, and one is a reproach to him.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 30
YOU WRITE:
“You have not commented on whether or not Dr. Dobson’s use of fear was legitimate or illegitimate, which I believe is the best point that Wallis made (and, from what I’ve read, he doesn’t make a whole lot of them.) As far as I can tell, Dr. Dobson has acted just like non-Christian political activists act– he used fear to motivate people to vote so that our special interest group will have more power. When we cast political events into an incredibly apocalyptic light and view political power as the key prize in the culture wars, we look just like every other special interest group and not like the Body of Christ. As Christians, we’re called to something better.”
Dobson’s fears in MY opinion are legitimate – we as Believers can look back and realize that political action should have been taken years and years ago –
Dobson is making sure that what he fears is made known to the masses, which I AGREE WITH – fear is an interesting word in that it makes one watchful for signs which might help identify a problem. Dobson is a WATCHFUL dedicated man, who has done much. When you speak of “apocalyptic light” it points to disaster, be that as the laws that are already on the books concerning abortion, or homosexual same sex marriages which are now being fought over in California in our courts. These laws, are a disaster whether they have been passed (abortion or ’same sex marriage’) as time goes on we as Believers are speaking out, looking at what most likely will happen IF the road our country is on continues in sexual immorality both in our children’s schools and the slaughter of innocent children in the womb.
As Christian Believers we are called to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ – that doesn’t mean that we don’t use our ability as American citizens to speak BOLDLY against sin, that is a liberal trick which doesn’t work –
Yes many liberals call those of us who are against abortion, ’same sex marriage’ as ’special interest groups’ that doesn’t detour any of us in our journey to protect the unborn or to protect our children in public schools from education on homosexual activities and gender identification classes
Dobson has put out the message as he sees our country becoming more corrupt, more un-sensitized to sinful practices, as ’so called’ Believers ‘braying’ at his concern – Dobson puts his concerns forth as warnings, – and of course it is a fearful thing to see our moral values thrown to the wind as so much trash. And you find fault with this, posting – - – - “we look just like every other special interest group and not like the Body of Christ. As Christians, we’re called to something better.” – - – -
No, we are called to warn others when we see what might happen if we don’t stand TOGETHER against the tide of immorality -
Report comment to moderator
Wallis is not a prophet; nor is he a watchman; nor is he a leader in the body of Christ…the real church.
To suggest that he is any of those things is to dishonor our Lord, and His real prophets and watchmen of old.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
When Christians cast our duty in terms of regaining political power, we buy into the devil’s lie that political power will achieve the Kingdom of God. From the temptation of Christ until now, Satan has used this trick to trade the power of Christ’s redemption for a cheap imitation, political power. I think Dobson’s letter was in this vein, and I think he was trying to use fear inappropriately to achieve political power. I say this because I think that talking about 4 major terrorist attacks as a result of Obama’s election is unrealistic and using fear inappropriately. I think that declaring that campus fellowships will have to disband is unrealistic and using fear inappropriately. I think that a number of other possible predictions were included solely to make people afraid and not to try to present a clear case for voting against Obama.
I think using fear is wrong because it isn’t what we’re taught in the Bible. “There is no fear in love.” Fear is a poor substitute for well-reasoned rhetoric and healthy discussion. I also think using fear is wrong because it makes us like every other special interest group, and that is not a good witness to the world. It isn’t just “liberals” saying that– other Christians see it, too, and are disgusted by it. Read and listen to Tim Keller, a wise PCA pastor, on this if you want to hear it spun out more.
There will always be evils and ills in society, and from America’s founding until now her people and her magistrates have presided over and engaged in wickedness. While politics and government can play a role in redeeming our culture, it is not the be-all-end-all of cultural engagement, and Dobson’s letter very strongly indicates that political power is the most important concern for Christians.
I am all for being watchful and aware. There are many atrocities going on in the world today, and Christians are too distracted to care about them. But I think that the redemption of our society will come at many levels, and it will begin with individual Christians heeding the Bible’s prophetic call to wake up every morning and seek to make Jesus their greatest treasure, and then live lives of faithfulness to God. This will impact our country far more than any president or judge could.
Most of the time in the Bible when someone speaks boldly against sin, it’s not telling people outside the church how terrible they are. It’s calling God’s community to forsake their idolatry (in this case, I think many Christians were tempted by the idol out of political power) and to worship the one true God. We stand against the tide of immorality not by yelling at it from the other side of the street, but by living as a bold, faithful counterculture that honors and obeys Christ, does not chase after political power like everyone else, and does not use fear to get its way like everyone else. The call to faithfulness and repentance starts with us; and when we live differently we will truly bless this nation and reverse the damage that sin has done over the years.
Report comment to moderator
I am grateful that there are Christians who will stand up to the likes of Dr. Dobson and call him on his fearmongering ways. It helps to remind those of us who are non-Christians that Dr. Dobson only represents a small and extreme faction of Christianity. Thankfully the majority of Americans rejected the fear that Dr. Dobson so well represented!
I should also note that in early 2008 Dr. Dobson told his followers that there was absolutely no way he could support or vote for McCain. But lo and behold, a few months later he declared his undying loyalty to McCain and urged his followers to vote for him as God’s chosen candidate. My question is, did God change Her mind at some point, or was Dr. Dobson deceived?
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking
YOU WRITE:
“When Christians cast our duty in terms of regaining political power, we buy into the devil’s lie that political power will achieve the Kingdom of God.”
Political power is one thing, the comments I made in post #21 1 – 7 are legimtimate – The devil would love all Believers to think we cannot stand against sin, as it will not achieve the “Kingdom of Heaven” but that’s the whole point menliketreeswalking, standing against laws which will hurt our children are doing what any parent would do to protect our young – your use of some sort of rewording to mean that standing against these laws somehow will achieve the Kingdom of God will most likely NOT lead anyone to Christ, but they will certainly help to protect the unborn and those who are chocking homosexuality down our children’s throats.
Report comment to moderator
“Letter From 2012 in Obama’s America.”
Lame-O Dobson “fear out the vote” tactic. Didn’t work. Obama won anyway.
Let’s see how many of these ‘prophecies’ come true in 012.
PS – I thought predicting that Justice Scalia will have health issues in the next few years was in poor taste. Let’s hope not.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
Your post isn’t entirely clear grammatically, but I think you misunderstand what I’m saying. I feel that Dr. Dobson’s letter is a symptom of the general condition affecting evangelicals right now– the general condition being that we view political power as the means to “winning the culture war” and making our mark on America. His letter was full of fear and spoke strongly to a desire for political power to quench that fear. Dobson seems to indicate that if we could only get political power, our problems would be solved. The devil wants us to put our trust in princes, but Jesus has something far more radical and powerful for us.
The things that you mention in post #21 are all bad, but I doubt that more political power in the hands of Christians or their allies would have done a whole lot to stop them. Considering our cultural decline, I doubt that more political power would have done a whole lot. Power won’t insulate our children from “the homosexual agenda”; one day our children are going to meet a very kind, loving homosexual and will have a civil conversation and hear about what homosexuals do and don’t want. The best to insulate against that is not to make sure that they never hear about it in kindergarten, but to teach them faithfully and consistently from the Bible.
Do I think we should stand and speak out against unjust laws? Absolutely! Do I think that our problems will be solved if we replace those laws with good ones? Absolutely not! Do I think that our primary focus ought to be living faithfully to God in our daily activities (with political involvement as a small sliver of that faithful living) ? Absolutely! Do I think our primary problems have political solutions? Absolutely not!
Report comment to moderator
Anlir, I have to say that we Christians are a confused, hypocritical bunch who often put our hearts in the wrong places and hurt the people that we are supposed to love. It shames me how many of my brothers and sisters have given in to the Dobson-esque mindset of fear. But we serve a wonderful, powerful Savior who is changing us day by day and whose love casts out fear, and I hope that as more people make Him more precious in all that they do and walk faithfully in what He has taught us, the world will be transformed for the better.
Report comment to moderator
#28 SteveG,
As a matter of fact, He has:
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1
#33 Dav,
Exactly right.
Report comment to moderator
Peter
Confiscatory federal, state, and local taxes
not evidence of Gomorrah rather evidence of a state that still works. Only a failed state doesn’t collect taxes. All taxes are confiscatory. If you prefer a failed state which does not have confiscatory taxes may I suggest Somali.
Christian blogs that allow anti Christian trolls to denigrate evangelical and orthodox religion
Disagreeing is not denigrating.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria do you realize that all 7 of your “who would have thought we would discuss” refer to gay rights. Bizarre — is there nothing else to be upset over?
BTW – if I go on a rant in class about how gay does not mean stupid do I need parent consent
Report comment to moderator
Good point HRW (#42), there are many more things in this world to be upset at. Abortion, massive degradation and destruction of human life in DR Congo & Sudan, increasing poverty, etc.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 38
YOU WRITE:
“Your post isn’t entirely clear grammatically, but I think you misunderstand what I’m saying. I feel that Dr. Dobson’s letter is a symptom of the general condition affecting evangelicals right now– the general condition being that we view political power as the means to “winning the culture war” and making our mark on America. His letter was full of fear and spoke strongly to a desire for political power to quench that fear. Dobson seems to indicate that if we could only get political power, our problems would be solved. The devil wants us to put our trust in princes, but Jesus has something far more radical and powerful for us.”
NO on both points ‘BOLDED’ – I understand what you are saying as I understand many who are following the “Emergent Church” methodology – Dobson’s letter is not a symptom, but a warning which effects every believer. Those who aren’t believers wouldn’t listen anyway. Your warning BOLDED, filled with fear is over the top, and reeks of nothing less than the weakest comeback to Dobson’s letter.
You aren’t reading the letter correctly, but trying to interpret what Dobson wrote in order to serve your own purpose –
You can talk about the devil all you like, but it’s the devil who would like nothing more than to see all the laws that effect the unborn to stay PUT and all the laws which have ‘tried’ to put ’same sex marriage’ to be effective ASAP, not to mention the teaching in our schools, even Kindergarten children to attend a wedding of two lesbian’s – who do you think you are fooling? – certainly not those who have studied Scripture, who know exactly what we’re up against.
Report comment to moderator
David L: By denying the genuineness of one’s Christianity, you (in your belief) deny their salvation. That passage you quoted doesn’t seem to give you any such right.
You define “real Christian” as a hardline rightwinger. I doubt Jesus himself would qualify based on your criteria.
Report comment to moderator
David L – 40
You are right!
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 38
Your point bolded – Being forearmed, being warned is very important – being knowledgeable is most important, and YOU consider this not have had an impact to stop ABORTION? Who are you to decide what the Believers in this country only a few decades ago could have done with the power of GOD, and the backbone to stand up against those who oppose the life of an unborn child because the mother is a selfish woman?
“one day our children are going to meet a very kind, loving homosexual and will have a civil conversation and hear about what homosexuals do and don’t want” and what difference would that make? – do you think that a homosexual describing what they DO and what the “WANT” makes any difference as to their sin, or the end thereof?
I don’t think ANY laws will stop ANYTHING anymore than laws against murder, theft, pornography or child abuse have solved ALL problems, but they certainly are a deterrent. Your arguments hold no substance, they are founded on ideas which basically say: Laws don’t stop bad behavior, they worthless, they don’t work – check out the last paragraph of your post above – IF you don’t believe that LAWS which keep people from slaughtering the unborn OR stopping those who want ’same sex marriage’ OR those who are determined to teach children as young as Kindergarten, learning about homosexuality, then you are missing the point, throw all laws to to the dogs after all nothing “will be solved if we replace those laws with good ones” -
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 39
menliketreeswalking – it’s important to speak for yourself if you feel confused, or acting like a hypocrite –
YOU POST
“It shames me how many of my brothers and sisters have given in to the Dobson-esque mindset of fear. But we serve a wonderful, powerful Savior who is changing us day by day and whose love casts out fear, and I hope that as more people make Him more precious in all that they do and walk faithfully in what He has taught us, the world will be transformed for the better.”
menliketreeswalking – It’s clearly pathetic that you see Believers and feel ashamed because they are not willing to walk “lock step” to the ‘liberal so called Christian LEFT’ – we are not ashamed of our stand against sin, nor are we going to move one tiny inch to accomodate what the far left is ‘bellowing’ as if their lungs will burst —- If “fear” is all you can see, then you are not seeing what many of the rest of us see as a ‘WARNING’ of things which MIGHT come to pass -
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
You seem to not be willing to engage in a thoughtful, humble, civil dialogue working from the Bible. I have done my best to hear you out and respond to your concern while acknowledging the few good points that I think Dr. Dobson made (see post #30), but you seem obsessed with the issue of homosexuality and determined only to defend Dr. Dobson’s letter and use insults like “pathetic” where they are uncalled for.
1 Thessalonians 4:9-12
Report comment to moderator
Oops, forgot to say at the end– sorry, I’m done here.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 49
Strange that you would make the statement which I have bolded –
The obessesion with homosexuality does not rest with me my friend, but those who induldge in the activity and wish to make it legal within the framework of ‘marriage’ between same sex – and then to futhermore complicate the issue, the homosexual teachings within public schools to children from K through 12 grade – this is not an obession of adult parents, but a stance which many Believers have endeavoured to STAND AGAINST as we are to protect the children – if you wish to call this “obsessed” I would question your motives, and more importantly WHY you feel we as parents should not ZERO in on this issue?
It always boils down to playing a game against those who are adamantly opposed to homosexual marriage, OR teaching this in our schools as something which is good, but in essence is sinful.
This is exactly what we are seeing now – and you believe that the Believers are obsessed, or at least I AM with homosexuality? – to SILENCE Believers, so that these ‘laws’ are fianlly passed by the homosexual community would be just what is desired, but alas, there are thousands upon thousands who voted YES on PROP 8 in California. That’s not an obsession, that’s a demonstration of what the majority of voters believe and stand AGAINST which is ’same sex marriage’ –
Report comment to moderator
SteveG,
What do you care what I believe? You’re not even a Christian. Why does this conversation concern you?
And how do you know how I define “real Christian”? You don’t. You’re just looking to pick fights with people you don’t like. Find something better to do with your time.
Report comment to moderator
You’re right David.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria is spot-on in everything she has said.
The Dobson letter offers a realistic scenario of where we may be headed under an Obama presidency. An ultra-liberal Supreme Court is a distinct possibility. The letter has meticulously documented past court decisions that point the way such a court would most probably take us. Dobson is NOT just speculating out of thin air in order to generate senseless fear. The evidence is there for anyone to see.
Those who brush aside these possibilities remind me of those Jews in the early 30s who casually dismissed the dire predictions of what a Germany under Hitler would look like. Even though they had ample evidence, they ignored it and later paid for it with their lives.
I find one fault with Dobson’s letter: his depiction of Christians going passively into the night of such a tyranny. Rather than that, a violent civil war may be more likely.
Report comment to moderator
What do you care what I believe? You’re not even a Christian. Why does this conversation concern you?
Part of the reason I am not is because of Christians like you and Victoria, who rush to tell me that if I agree with Wallis or Campolo, I am not a “real” Christian.
So, way to go.
Report comment to moderator
Godwin’s Law has officially been fulfilled after a mere 54 comments! Now that’s light on a hill for you.
Report comment to moderator
There’s so much fogginess in that comment, I don’t know where to start, SteveG.
Theologically speaking, the reason you’re not a Christian has nothing to do with other people. It has to do with the rebelliousness of your own heart and the fact that God has not worked repentance and faith in you at this point.
Practically speaking, being a Christian never really has to do with other people. My assessment of who is or who is not bearing the fruit of real repentance in Christ hasn’t stopped hordes of other people from being what they call “Christians.” Why has it stopped you? Be honest. It’s because you reject the doctrine of Christianity. There are dozens and dozens of liberal Christian communities where you could fit in, if you wanted to. The only thing preventing you from seeking them out is that you’d have to accept–at least nominally–the essentials of Christian dogma. Mature people accept or reject belief systems primarily on the basis of the content of those systems, not on the personalities of a few of their adherents. I mean, have you never met a Christian you actually liked? Why not accept Christianity because of them rather than reject it because of others you don’t like?
Practically speaking again, you don’t know me from Adam. All you know is some words. You don’t know me any more than I know you. So you don’t know who, from your personal experience, is like me or unlike me. As a matter of fact, I have a feeling that, if we were to meet in real life, we’d get along much better than we do here. It may surprise you to learn that I have friends and co-workers and family who aren’t Christians and with whom I have pleasant relationships. You’ve never met Victoria, either. Any objective observer would say that your pointing to a couple of anonymous people on one blog reeks of an excuse.
Practically speaking again, you made your decision to reject Christ long before you ever read a word of mine on this blog. So why are you pointing at me?
Literally speaking, I haven’t used the words “real Christian” on this thread, to my recollection, or even on this blog. What you’re saying is that I don’t have the power to keep people out of heaven by my assessment of their faith. I agree with that. But your tacit complaint is that I would dare make a judgment of any kind on another professing Christian. I suggest you take it up with the writers of the Bible and not with me. I’m simply following the example of the New Testament, which is absolutely unashamed of discernment and making distinctions between sheep and goats, good fruit and bad, the narrow path and the wide, and so on. This is the real scandal today–that Christ divides, even down the middle of the sanctuary. But I didn’t invent it.
From what I know of Wallis, he’s capable of making some points we’d be wise to hear, but his overall message is a social gospel that thinks “faith” is the fuel in the engine of politics. Not only this, but his “leadership” in the Church is a farce, as it bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Chruch leadership manifested in the New Testament. He appears to be a universalist, to boot. He fails to appreciate the primary message of the Bible, as well–that it’s not about reforming the world but rescuing sinners out of a world doomed to God’s judgment and wrath. Eliminating poverty is his main goal as a leader, which is strange because, when the disciples tried to complain about a misuse of money, which could have been given to the poor, Christ wasn’t terribly excited about it. He said, The poor will always be with you. Not that He meant we should never give to the poor but that eliminating poverty a) is impossible and b) is of a lower priority than saving souls. Wallis fails to see the inherent conflict between the fleshly world and the spiritual world, between the visible city of man and the invisible city of God.
None of this is intended to cast a final judgment on the state of his soul, as though I really believe I could do that. But the Bible teaches that we should use discernment and that beliefs have consequences. It saddens me that the writers of this blog have forsaken that teaching and that they have no compunction placing heterodoxy on an equal level with orthodoxy.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 56
Wikipedia is not a source which most teaching institutions including High Schools and colleges recognize. The LINK below will explain what many of us have known for a very long time.
“>Wikipedia ‘littered with inaccuracies’
Below is the definition from the Dictionary -
menliketreeswalking – because you aren’t happy with the thread has nothing to do with “Godwins Law” – If you believe you have found a light on the hill, ENJOY!
Report comment to moderator
Victoria, I don’t think you understand that Michael’s post (#54) was the fulfillment of Godwin’s Law thus showing that this thread has totally degenerated.
The “light on the hill” was clearly pearls before swine.
Report comment to moderator
menliketreeswalking – 59
YOU WRITE:
“The “light on the hill” was clearly pearls before swine.”
You obviously didn’t understand Michaels analogy, therefore taking it out of context and citing “Godwins Law” thinking you had obtainted a ‘gotcha moment’ when in fact it is YOU who have shown yourself unable to understand what Michael wrote –
“Pearls before swine” – the last time I heard anyone ‘toot’ that phrase – they couldn’t cope any longer with the discussion, making the same blunder as you have in your post.
Report comment to moderator
David L (#57),
I emphatically agree with most of what you have said. However, I’m not sure about your last two sentences:
“But the Bible teaches that we should use discernment and that beliefs have consequences. It saddens me that the writers of this blog have forsaken that teaching and that they have no compunction placing heterodoxy on an equal level with orthodoxy.”
Please elaborate.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria,
You did of course notice that the Wikipedia article and Dictionary definition you provided of “Godwin’s Law” are basically the same, even sharing much identical wording.
Whether the comparison with Hitler in post 54 is justified or not, criticizing the definition of the “Law” just looks like pointless quibbling, in this case.
Report comment to moderator
Thomas
When I see that anything is from Wikipedia I rarely read it, as I explained in my earlier post.
I disagree with you – If you are unable to see the analogy which Michael made very clearly, and accurately I might add, that’s too bad. “Godwins Law” – “swine and pearls” is childish, it doesn’t apply to what was being posted by Michael -
Report comment to moderator
David L and Thomas,
The comparison I made in #54 was between the Jews of the early 30s and those Americans today who discount legitimate warnings about future political trends. That was the direct and most important comparison. The indirect comparison was the political environment. For the Jews it developed into a Nazi tyranny. For Americans, it may develop into a leftist or Marxist style tyranny as extrapolated from current trends meticulously identified in the Dobson letter.
This is a legitimate comparison and warning that we ignore at our peril. Your attempt to dismiss it offhand by reference to some pseudo-law is juvenile. Godwin’s Law falls into the the same category as Murphy’s Law with its innumerable comedy corollaries.
Report comment to moderator
David L,
Pardon me. In #64 I meant “Menliketreeswalking,” not you.
Report comment to moderator
David L: Well, as I said, it is part of the reason. It is true I do not agree with much of Christian doctrine.
You may not be aware, however, that I was a committed Christian until my early 30s. (About 10 years ago). And while encountering Christians who applied more judgment than grace to others — as I gather you do based on your postings here — was not an actual reason I moved away from it, it is one of the things that I do not miss about it.
Report comment to moderator
In my experience, all people are judgmental to some degree or another. But most people do not recognize it in themselves.
My non-Christian family members think of themselves as being very tolerant & accepting. However, their tolerance & acceptance only goes as far as people who believe the same liberal way that they do. (I use “liberal” as an adjective, not a slur.)
I’ve also noticed that often one will accuse another of being judgmental for merely offering an opinion with which one disagees (usually strongly).
And isn’t accusing someone of being judgmental a judgment in itself?
Report comment to moderator
“And isn’t accusing someone of being judgmental a judgment in itself?”
Of course it is. SteveG is judgmental toward me for being judgmental toward Jim Wallis. It’s like stereotyping: humans can’t help but do it.
I’m willing to admit, SteveG, that many Christians can be jerks, but obviously something else was going on if you stopped being a “committed Christian” (although, according to the Bible, if you left the Church you were never really part of it; see I John 2:19). I’m sorry to hear you turned your back on the grace of God in Christ, but (as I said earlier) I’m curious why you let the judgmental Christians determine your actions rather than the nice ones.
As for whether I’m a judgmental one, I disagree. Keep in mind the highly selective forum in which this conversation is taking place. You only see me when I’m making opinionated comments. There’s not a lot of space for pointless niceties on a blog. I could say the same thing about you–all you ever do is start arguments with people you disagree with. But I have a feeling that’s not really all you ever do.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Report comment to moderator
Posts 67 and 68 are missing now on this thread.
Report comment to moderator
Could somebody please answer Dobson’s question: Christians didn’t take time to find out who Barack Obama was when they voted for him. Why did they risk our nation’s future on him?
Is it because they stopped listening to Dobson?
Due to the caveats in Dobson’s letter, when 2012 comes he won’t be able to say, “I told you so.” All he will be able to say is, “I told you maybe.”
Report comment to moderator
Moth 70
YOU WRITE:
“Could somebody please answer Dobson’s question:” “Christians didn’t take time to find out who Barack Obama was when they voted for him. Why did they risk our nation’s future on him?”
Peter Ogego Kenyan Ambassador To U.S. Admits Barack Obama Was Born In Kenya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqOLREmCJOo
Many USA citizens want the to SEE Obama’s Birth Certificate, but as yet it has not been produced.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria: You can’t “admit” to something you don’t know. Here are some talk radio people asking leading questions of an anonymous person that may or may not be the person he’s claimed to be.
You are desperate and lame. You have yet to explain why the McCain campaign and the Republican party would not have blown Obama’s candidacy out of the water months before the election if it was so obvious.
Obama won. Get over it.
Report comment to moderator
Victoria: The ambassador was referring to Barack Obama Sr., the president-elect’s father.
How gullible are you?
Report comment to moderator
Kenya: ‘I don’t know’ if Obama born in U.S.
Ambassador suggests question be put to American government
November 26, 2008
By Chelsea Schilling
Kenyan Ambassador Peter N.R.O. Ogego is saying he’s “infuriated” by a radio program’s efforts to “misquote” him on the subject of President-elect Barack Obama’s birthplace – but he refused to confirm whether Obama was born in the United States.
In an exclusive interview with WND today, Ogego was specifically asked whether Obama is a natural-born U.S. citizen.
“I don’t know,” he said with a tone of irritation. “You should ask your government. I know his father is Kenyan.”
He continued with a rhetorical question: “Obama is an American, isn’t he?”
Clark: ”We want to congratulate you on Barack Obama, our new president, and you must be very proud.”
Ogego: “We are. We are. We are also proud of the U.S. for having made history as well.”
Fellhauer: “One more quick question, President-elect Obama’s birthplace over in Kenya, is that going to be a national spot to go visit, where he was born?”
Ogego: “It’s already an attraction. His paternal grandmother is still alive.”
Fellhauer: ”His birthplace, they’ll put up a marker there?”
Ogego: ”It would depend on the government. It’s already well known.”
Now Ogego is saying the hosts misquoted and edited the audio recording of his comments.
READ THE REST ?
Report comment to moderator
The gullible ones are all those who unquestioningly believe Obama’s countless obfuscations, misrepresentations, and outright lies.
Report comment to moderator
I think you are confused. It was McCain that wasn’t born in the US:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/citizen.asp
McCain was born in the Panama Canal zone and so it isn’t clear if he is a natural-born citizen.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/Polarik/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
No one is going to touch any of this anyway, because it is absurd either way.
Report comment to moderator
OD – 76
McCain was born abroad, because his father was in the military, do you understand how that might make a difference? Just keep playing on Google you will finally get the right information.
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDmag.com's Community section to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!