Do men hurt?
In the past few weeks, several conversations I’ve had highlight the fact that many churches are ill-equipped to deal with people who suffer emotional pain, especially men in pain. The band R.E.M. has a song “Everybody Hurts” with these opening lyrics:
When the day is long and the night, the night is yours alone,
When you’re sure you’ve had enough of this life, well hang on
Don’t let yourself go, ’cause everybody cries and everybody hurts sometimes
Everybody hurts because everyone is affected by the Fall. Sadly, for many men, pain is often dismissed, ignored, or confused with sin. Many men do sinful things not out of a rebellious spirit but to self-medicate real pain. We all find ways to deal with pain, and sometimes it opens the door for sin.
In challenging a former pastor’s high school-aged son about his chronic pot smoking, I realized that he was using drugs as an escape. It was the best way he thought to deal with the relentless verbal abuse received from a father who thought it was a good idea to be harsh and emasculating with his son to teach him how to be a man. It didn’t work. Telling this teen simply to “stop” smoking pot did not really address his real problem: He was bleeding.
I have heard stories of men who have lost teeth because of regular beatings at the hands of their fathers—men who heard phrases like “I’m going to kill you” (with a screwdriver pointed at the face). One 21-year-old recently told me about how his father used to put a knife to his throat to threaten him (this young man smoked a lot of pot, too). Moreover, if we really knew about the high percentage of men who were sexually abused growing up and developed a distorted view of sexuality, it would change the nature of men’s ministry. Or imagine if men could be really honest about how angry they feel for reasons they cannot explain.
With some frustration, a recent Christian college graduate inquired as to why the church was not a safe place for men to be open about their pain. Women have “support groups” and men have “accountability groups,” he pointed out. Women hurt, but men are nothing more than disgusting sinners who need behavior modification and group penance. I didn’t know exactly how to respond but I have been curious about this fact for some time now.
Many churches do not provide safe space for men to confess being in need of healing (Luke 4, Isaiah 61) due to the hands many men have been dealt, sins committed against them in the past or present, their own addictions, confusions, passivity, anger, and so on. As a result, we have churches full of unhealed and wounded men who often medicate their pain in secret or take it out on their wives, children, friends, and co-workers. The dysfunctional cycle of self-medication creates even more generational sin and pain. Many wives foolishly think that they can heal their husbands instead of the Triune God.
I look forward to the day in ministry contexts where I hear stories of men growing up in churches who were able to get help early because it was a normal way the church loved their men. I long for the day when Chap Clark’s book Hurt: Inside the World of Today’s Teenagers is no longer the normal high school student’s experience. I look forward to the day when the knee-jerk response to R.E.M.’s song is “Find a church and meet the Trinity,” even for men because they need lots of help too.




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back to top149 Comments to “Do men hurt?”
A very thoughtful and thought provoking piece. Thank you, Anthony. I will think about this and reread it later in the day. There is much to ponder.
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That IS thoughtful. What is the proper role of the church in cases like this? I think we expect too much from accountability groups. Things like this are only bearable to share with very close friends, where a bond of trust has built up over time, and over a variety of situations. Bonds like that just don’t get built by weekly hour-long sessions alone.
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John M. said, “I think we expect too much from accountability groups.” Agreed, John. I think that evangelicals assume accountability to be equivalent to discipleship and spiritual formation.
You also said, “Things like this are only bearable to share with very close friends, where a bond of trust has built up over time, and over a variety of situations. Bonds like that just don’t get built by weekly hour-long sessions alone.”
Again, agreed. as I travel around and ask men if they have close friends or if there fathers did, the answer is typically, “no.” And “men’s ministry” is not the context for fostering “iron-sharpening” relationships that are life-on-life beyond a weekly hour-long session.
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Plenty of strong men are able to deal with the difficult emotions of loss and to work through the complex feelings involved. Men who truly accept Christ and His gift of salvation are especially able to accept the hard realities of life.
Also, in truth, a lot of pain that men suffer comes from their own moral and ethical transgressions. Phillip Rieff in The Triumph of the Therapeutic argues that therapy, including that from churches, aims not at the good life but of “better living” and has become the predominant mode in contemporary Western culture.
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The problem may be greater with men, but it isn’t just men. I have noticed years ago that the requests in Wednesday prayer meetings almost always concerned physical sickness, when we know that there are people there hurting for many things they can’t talk about because we don’t really trust each other. Occasionally, in the more comfortable SS classes, prayer about job and school decisions may be requested. But not the real hurts.
Deacon’s committees may get involved with financial crises, and pastor’s mey counsel more intimate details, but he often never gets to the kernel of the matter.
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A very well written piece and something that does need to be addressed. I remember when I was a teenager reading Breakaway and reading a poll about whether it was manly for guys to cry (they had teen girls answer the question.) One girl wrote that she thought men had no right to cry since it was a “turn off”. Too many people in society today think that men have no right to feelings and that being tough means not feeling anything, but if anything, men can be more sensitive to emotional problems than women. Women have each other as well as their spouses and boyfriends, but men usually deal with their issues alone, because it’s “manly.” I saw this myself in my family, where my sister’s emotional needs were met while mine were ignored or downgraded. Only recently have my parents acknowledged that my emotional issues are real and actually impact my life. This is definitely something that should be addressed by the church. Reverse sexism is alive and well in the world today, and I often feel like women have escaped the restrictions of their traditional roles, while men are still expected to adhere to theirs.
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Chas — sometimes the physical pains are the easiest to deal with. There’s a lot of shame floating around too, the disappointments that can be hid.
Now in my 50s, I find the task of being a man, a godly man every bit as challenging, and in some ways more so than when young.
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This is a provocative piece and I look forward to reading further replies. I think in many ways this is spot on. Men often suffer in silence with very few resources for honest, authentic friendship and support in the Lord. I am in my 40’s now and have been struggling for years to form solid emotional support system like I had when I was in college and young adulthood. It seems to me that as a man gets older it becomes more difficult to establish new friendships that are rich and authentic and trusting. I agree with an earlier comment about trust. I recently went to a brother with an issue I was struggling with, which I knew he had struggled with,and I was bitterly disappointed with the lack of support I got. What I was hoping would be an opportunity to open some trust and build a new friendship ended up in only a lecture.
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I don’t really look forward to seeing the change. Not that I would like it to occur, but it seems beyond possibilty to me (I know nothing is impossible for God, but this one is beyond men on our own). Even churches that see the need and take some steps to try to go down the road to changie generally don’t get there, or get far.
Men are socialized from the very start not to cry and to ‘get over’ their pains and don’t show any hurt. The social pressure along that line is enormous and thoroughly enforced by people’s (conscious and unconscious) reactions to such shows by men.
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“Many wives foolishly think that they can heal their husbands instead of the Triune God.”
What would be the source/sources of this foolish thinking??
I read in Table Talk magazine years ago that if a PASTOR is unfaithful, it is the wife’s fault. This was written by a woman.
Could it be those in orgainized religion that don’t want to befirend a hurting wife and so tell her to shut up?
If the triune God is going to be the healer, how does he do it? What vehicle/s does he use?
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There is something to a manly “deal with it” approach, but I also hasten to affirm that Anthony’s points are well made and well taken. The point is that men (and women) must recognize that we often need the church to help us “deal with it.” Nothing wrong with affirming that need.
There is often too much unwarrented risk involved in revealing inner pain and struggles at church. Indeed, risk calls for courage (as well as wisdom), but let’s also question why there is often so much risk for confessors at church in the first place. We can consistently oppose sin and still embrace confession and repentance warmly and joyfully as Christians. After all, we all fall short!
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Well written and thoughtful. And applicable outside of church. In this way I don’t think the church’s approach is unique — it mirrors society’s attitudes towards male emotion esp in traditional cultures.
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“it mirrors society’s attitudes towards male emotion esp in traditional cultures.”
and in how MANY ways does the “church” mirror the world, in other words, the fall, and not redemption??
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sigh
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I’ve had a lot of trouble making good male friends now. I think the last really close ones were several years back in junior high. It’s made it really hard, because I have to deal with everything alone. I think this isolation may also contribute to the development of same-sex attraction. (Not wanting to start a flame war, but I am wondering if anyone thinks that would be possible.)
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I also sympathize with emo kids more than I used to.
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Chas said: “I have noticed years ago that the requests in Wednesday prayer meetings almost always concerned physical sickness, when we know that there are people there hurting for many things they can’t talk about because we don’t really trust each other. Occasionally, in the more comfortable SS classes, prayer about job and school decisions may be requested. But not the real hurts.”
Chas, you are correct. Many churches remain place where people are expected to appear to have it all together rather than appearing that they need the Trinity!
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Barracuda said, “Only recently have my parents acknowledged that my emotional issues are real and actually impact my life. This is definitely something that should be addressed by the church. Reverse sexism is alive and well in the world today, and I often feel like women have escaped the restrictions of their traditional roles, while men are still expected to adhere to theirs.”
Bro, VERY profound. Your story is fairly common and I think you are very correct about gender roles on this issue. Great point!
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Harris said, “sometimes the physical pains are the easiest to deal with. There’s a lot of shame floating around too, the disappointments that can be hid.”
Great point!! I meant to write something about shame into this post. Maybe I’ll write a separate post about it down the road but shame is a HUGE issue.
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Carnay said, “I recently went to a brother with an issue I was struggling with, which I knew he had struggled with,and I was bitterly disappointed with the lack of support I got. What I was hoping would be an opportunity to open some trust and build a new friendship ended up in only a lecture.”
Sadly, this is the experience I hear among youth as well with their parents and church leaders. As a result, perhaps, the lecture cycle continues because there has been no formation and patterns of helping each other demonstrated in any other way.
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KRM said, “Men are socialized from the very start not to cry and to ‘get over’ their pains and don’t show any hurt. The social pressure along that line is enormous and thoroughly enforced by people’s (conscious and unconscious) reactions to such shows by men.”
I wish you were wrong but it’s hard to argue with the truth of what you say here. Even worse, is that lots of men think they actually have “gotten over” their pains. Or many will believe something crazy like, “it made me stronger.”
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REG, great questions!
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Joel Mark said, “There is often too much unwarrented risk involved in revealing inner pain and struggles at church. Indeed, risk calls for courage (as well as wisdom), but let’s also question why there is often so much risk for confessors at church in the first place. We can consistently oppose sin and still embrace confession and repentance warmly and joyfully as Christians. After all, we all fall short!”
Yeah, it would be great if church was a place to honest about one’s spiritual warfare and brokeness. It should be normative.
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Cuthalion, actually you are on to something. That’s very perceptive as explained here by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi:
http://www.narth.com/docs/niconew.html
The Meaning of Same-Sex Attraction
By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.
During twenty years of clinical work with ego-dystonic homosexually oriented men, I have come to see homosexual enactment as a form of “reparation.” The concept of reparative drive has been well-established within the psychoanalytic literature; in our application, the person is attempting to “repair” unmet same-sex affective needs (attention, affection and approval) as well as gender-identification deficits (Nicolosi, 1991, 1993) through homoerotic behavior.
James Dobson recommends his book on parental prevention.
This might be good for your to read as well: http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html
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Overall, I think “Men’s Fraternity” and Nate Larkin’s “Samson Society” [ http://www.samsonsociety.org/ ] are movements toward changing church culture so that men can get help but there is MUCH work to be done, especially in conservative circles.
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Anthony your analysis is very accurate. I am a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. When I see a male client who is going through a divorce I ask about their support systems, friends, etc. Most of the time men have no one to talk with in a crisis time and they talk with me. Also, most of the churches I have attended recently have couples Sunday School classes. I think we need to go back to single sex classes. Then, there would at least be the opportunity to grow friendships and trust. I would say most people are afraid of not being a “good” Christian if they have problems. Oh, that we could be honest and support one another as the body of Christ was designed to be. Thanks for your very thoughtful post.
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CoachKimberly,
I have long admired certain sects of Judaism for their willingness to keep the husbands and wives separated. As you say, a great opportunity to grow friendships and trust. I’d be curious to hear if there actually are any posters to this blog site who attend such a Sunday School class.
In general the men in couples classes tend to clam up. (Other than those who are teaching that monrning’s lessons).
Has anyone thought of tying this threat into the churchformen.org website? Lotsa good stuff there as well.
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One point which has been overlooked is; when a man marries a woman, he and she become one – in this way they are the ‘best friends’ the soul mates, to comfort and love one another.
If men and women are spending their time honoring GOD, loving each other and their children, building a life together they don’t have a lot time to give to individual relationships. Couples usually find friends whom they both enjoy and spend some time with – however for the most part, lives are too busy with home life to invest the kind of time separate relationships call for.
Attending Church, and sometimes adult Sunday classes is a wonderful thing, but most often a couple wants to spend this time in a class together, to examine the lessons as a couple then sharing later – When I hear of the separatist plan of men in one class and women in another, I see that study of God’s Word is not the aim, but in fact friendship –
Friendship is a good thing we all need friends to some extent, but I cannot imagine taking time away from my husband to spend with another woman – When I was in school, and single I had many friends which I still have and keep in touch, but we were not able to keep up the constancy – as careers, marriage and children became our focus –
If some men are still unable to cope with adult life, having been harmed to the extent that is mentioned in Bradley’s TOPIC, then there is far more wrong, which would need specialized help – the stories Bradley related are extreme, as abuse is mentioned dating back since childhood – The relationships which appear to be needed would be more time consuming then most men could give to another – it takes a long time to build that kind of bridge through friendship, it also takes many hours per week on a one to one basis – this would take many hours away from a mans wife, and children which would be unfair considering the responsibilities a man has not only in his career, but personal life.
Being dependent to the extent that one cannot cope, needing a friendship which is far and above what most people can offer isn’t reasonable. Christ is the answer, we as Believers understand this, knowing that leaning on HIM is our strength, not to constantly remember a troubled past. That might seem harsh, but there comes a time when every adult has to gather themselves together and stop looking back, looking for that parent who wasn’t there and abused them, or the child who made their life a constant painful road – only GOD can heal these broken hearts –
Most Churches have recovery groups, ours has many – this might be a good idea to incorporate into evening gatherings at your Church – in this way people can be grouped as 4 or 5 people in each grouping, learning to trust one another and sharing their lives….. this would include a leader in each group -
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Sawgunner I teach a Women’s Intergenerational Sunday School Class we have women from ages 29 – 80 and they are single, separated, married, divorced, or husbands don’t attend church. I have found they open up much more than ever happened in a couples class. Unfortunately, our church only has men’s classes for older men. My husband tried to start a men’s class, but with little success. When I have been in couple’s classes people share very little and the teacher usually lectures most of the time.
Victoria, the Bible is clear about the older women teaching the younger women. If you are in a couples class that rarely happens. I love it when in my class an older women shares wise advice with a younger woman. Often, Sunday school classes are grouped by age or marital status so often there is a group think. We can learn so much from people who have walked the path before us.
I truly enjoy my women’s class and we share at a much deeper level and we trust one another.
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I once taught a “Through the Bible” class. When class was over, two of the men stayed around and we talked. I could skip the music part of the church service and not feel too bad.
Both of them had wives who didn’t come to church and jeered at the for their wanting to come to church- marriages gone sour. We talked about things. If the class was still going, I would broach this subject of past and resent hurts. We could have talked about these things.
I see possibilities for talking with several men who are working on the house now. I feel a call, now, God, how to go about this.
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#30 Repost to correct spelling errors that make it unreadable.
“I once taught a “Through the Bible” class. When class was over, two of the men stayed around and we talked. I could skip the music part of the church service and not feel too bad.
Both of them had wives who didn’t come to church and jeered at them for their wanting to come to church- marriages gone sour. We talked about things. If the class was still going, I would broach this subject of past and present hurts. We could have talked about these things.
I see possibilities for talking with several men who are working on the house now. I feel a call, now God, how to go about this.”
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I think this is a good time to ask ourselves, WWRELD and WWSJD? (What would Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson do?) Those men had plenty of hurt in their lifetimes, more than most men today could ever dream of handling or experiencing. And this pain was remedied by these men taking their eyes off of themselves, seeking the Lord in prayer, fasting and study. There wasn’t a revival in the confederate armies from men looking inward and focusing on their own pain and disappointments! They spent so much
time serving others, ministering to others in their pain and suffering, and sacrificing for others that they didn’t have the time or desire to worry about themselves. They were imitators of Christ, and that’s what men have to be today.
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coachkimberly – 29
Womens Bible study classes are great, our church has them throughout the week. I’m not against womens classes, however I don’t want to seek out a womens only class on Sunday morning.
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Bianca – 32
Your points are well stated -
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Victoria – 33
I agree Bible studies throughout the week are good. Usually they are held during the day and if you work you cannot go. Most women don’t want to attend a Bible Study at night. Most of the women in my class come on Sunday morning only. Some of their husband’s don’t attend church, so if there wasn’t a women’s class there would be no place for them to go.
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coachkimberly – 35
You obviously are filling a need in your Church – however many married people would not be interested in separate classes for men and women.
My husband and I attended a great Bible study, (evening – during the week at someone’s home) mixed with couples, singles, old and young, male and female – Very lively discussions – the problem arose when they decided to separate the women from the men for an hour or so at the end of the study – what I didn’t expect was the animosity which had crept in between and against some of the women – needless to say it was a sad situation, we left the group –
As you have given reasons for your Bible study on Sunday morning, I would agree that those who are single, women who’s husbands are home not wanting to attend church, or widows would do very nicely – however I don’t think it works well when married couples DO attend church, and able to enjoy a class TOGETHER -
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A lot depends on the individual husband and wife – some will be most comfortable in a couples class and some would prefer separate classes. I’m glad our church is large enough that both kinds of groups exist. And going to separate classes doesn’t signal that there are personal problems that need to be resolved.
In some couples one person is the talker, and in a couples class the other person will probably say little or nothing. If they are not together, that person (which could be either the husband or the wife) will have much more to say.
While sometimes husband and wife are best friends, it’s not always the case. And having a best friend (of the same sex) outside the marriage doesn’t mean they (husband and wife) have a bad marriage or don’t really love each other. The Bible tells us to love one another, it doesn’t command that husband and wife have to be best friends. Great when it happens, but do we want couples to feel that their marriges are failures if it doesn’t?
In that past, both men and women were likely to form good friendships with others of the same sex in the course of their daily work. Men worked together in the fields or other manual labor. Women got together to help with babies, make quilts, etc. It wasn’t necessary for the church to do anything to foster those kind of friendships because they happened naturally. People lived their whole lives in the same community and knew each other well.
In today’s mobile society, a lot of people have trouble forming good friendships, and it’s a place the church can help.
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Bianca-So women can turn to others for help, but if men do, it’s a personal failing because they should just suck it up and pray harder? What a load. This kind of thinking is exactly what I am talking about when I mention reverse sexism. News flash: Men are people too, and while God helps with healing, prayer alone cannot cure all wounds. Neither can acts of helping others. Do you really think that Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee never had a time when they really could have used someone to talk to? REL, particularly, wrote how many times he felt like he was being torn in two because he loved his country, the U.S., but he also loved his home, Virginia. I doubt that his feelings ever went away-he just was good at putting on an outwardly brave face, because he was a general in a war. That’s NOT the same as making the feelings go away. Until you have been a man who is suffering, please don’t try to tell us what we “need” to heal.
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Barracuda, awesome!! Very insightful, you get it! You’ve put a finger on the another huge problem exposed in some the comments: many women don’t believe men need help either.
Bro, you said, “Until you have been a man who is suffering, please don’t try to tell us what we “need” to heal.” This is spot on! Sadly, you’ll probably be saying that a lot in most churches in America for years to come–especially, the conservative ones that never discuss things like this.
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38 – It has nothing to do with being male or female. THE BIBLE says that we are to serve others and get your eyes off yourself. I never said we don’t need anyone to talk to.
There’s too much morbid introspection in the church today and on this thread. Usually it’s women who are obsessed this way, but nowadays men are getting into it. It’s sinful and it needs to be called what it is. Get your eyes off self!!!
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I’m sorry, but like Victoria and others, I get so tired of reading Bradley’s “men’s pain, secret pasts and desperate need for missional this and missional that” articles. It’s creepy.
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Bradley
YOU WRITE: “This is spot on! Sadly, you’ll probably be saying that a lot in most churches in America for years to come–especially, the conservative ones that never discuss things like this.”
When did you become the spokesman for conservative churches?
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Bradley
Do you know what is discussed in ‘Recovery Groups’ within the conservative churches? – as you state: “especially, the conservative ones that never discuss things like this.”
When did you come up with “never” –
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Bianca
Excellent advice as you state:
44 – Amen.
Seriously, I’ve heard this from both men and women and have experienced it myself – There’s nothing like ministering to another person to get you out of your doldrums and pain. And this barracuda fellow (more like a jellyfish)can only say, “You’re a girl, you don’t undestaaaaannd” That’s not being a girl. That’s anyone who picks up their bible and reads what is required of us as God’s people – it’s not sitting around and naval-gazing and indulging in masochism. It’s helping build homes, fix cars (or learning from the other men if you don’t know how) mow lawns for widows in the church and calling up another man and saying, Brother, how can I pray for YOU today?”
We girls have said it before and we’re gonna keep on saying it.
Grow up, men!!!
I like the story of the preacher who preached for 12 weeks straight on tithing. Finally a deacon asked him when he was going to preach on something else. The preacher answered,
“WHEN YOU START OBEYING WHAT I’M PREACHING ON NOW!”
A widow’s lawn needs mowing and another’s transmission needs fixing.
Get off the internet and get crackin’!
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” A widow’s lawn needs mowing and another’s transmission needs fixing.
Get off the internet and get crackin’!”
How about the woman who was abandoned by her husband? Does she qualify for needing help?
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Bianca – 45
YOU WRITE: “We girls have said it before and we’re gonna keep on saying it. Grow up, men!!!”
If men want to languish in adolescence they will never be able to accomplish the task of being men, which GOD made them to be.
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Bianca & Victoria – There is a difference between dwelling on emotional pain & dealing with it. “Doing for others” can also be a way of hiding from that pain & neglecting to deal with it.
Just as Jesus told the Pharisees (in regards to tithing & such), we should do one without neglecting the other. IOW, a person should do what God calls them to do (such as mowing lawns), but also deal with the pain one has, without dwelling in it or on it.
Do you ladies agree with this?
My dad always used to hate hearing people talk about past hurts & the like, in that he felt they were “dwelling on it”. Unfortunately, though he was a good & helpful man, he never dealt with hurts from his own past. I hope that before he died he was able to forgive those who hurt, but I don’t know that he did.
These pains/hurts/etc. that are not dealt with turn into unforgiveness & bitterness, even when the person thinks they have “moved on”.
Again, I don’t advocate dwelling on the problem & feeling sorry for oneself, but do believe in dealing with it appropriately – through wise counsel & PRAYER – while continuing to live one’s life for the Lord.
Jesus is the One who heals the brokenhearted.
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Reg – Yes.
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46 – as Karen said, a big resounding YES!
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47 – That’s right, Victoria. I like how R.J. Rushdoony put it in his book, Revolt Against Maturity. God put a MAN in the garden. Not a child.
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Maybe I should add that my comment comes from experience.
My husband has some things from his upbringing to deal with. For years he did “the right things” – living for the Lord, working hard to support his wife & kids, watching out for (& then taking in) his mother, helping my parents, snow-blowing the driveway of the old lady across the street, etc., etc.
But those things that needed dealing with were still there, below the surface, & finally erupted in a crisis.
He then continued to do “the right things”, but is also dealing with those issues, seeking the counsel of the Holy Spirit to change him. In his case, the human counsel he listens to is not from a male friend, but me, as I know him very well & God has given me insight into his issues.
Of course, as his wife, I have to be careful & respectful of the way I discuss these things with him.
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Karen, you brought up another important point – that we are to be our husbands’ primary confidants. It’s a wonderful thing for spouses to be best friends.
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Yes, Bianca, it certainly is!
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Seems to me that much of “what’s wrong” is the program-driven nature of churches these days. We are in classes for so many hours that fellowship is sacrificed. I wonder how many friendships could be fostered if we cut back the whirlwind of activities and just hung around after church, getting to know each other. Sometimes that would be as couples, other times as individuals. It wouldn’t have to be orchestrated.
Too often, we as the church expect someone else in leadership to see our need and create/provide a vehicle for meeting the need. That’s why we’re programmed to exhaustion, adding to the very problems that the classes are designed to address!
We need to restore the balance between knowledge and fellowship. For too long, we’ve been pursuing knowledge without applying it in the context of the Body. We need to relax our paces so that friendships can flourish.
This problem won’t be fixed with another program, IMHO.
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Interesting point Mom of five
In one of my father’s churches where he was a pastor, every Sunday after Worship service everyone gathered in the social area for coffee, tea, punch, cake cookies, etc., – it was a wonderful time of fellowship – new people were able to meet others, everyone was happy to have this time together – it would continue for over an hour.
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Amen, Momof5! I totally agree. Churches need more people who think like you. What a blessing.
This is one reason why I think instead of having Sunday School classes after church, why not meet in each others’ homes for fellowship – even if they are messy and even if the roast didn’t turn out the way we expected; or if all we have is hotdogs and mac n cheese.
Churches don’t need more programs, more conferences or more committees. Don’t form a fellowship or an evangelism committee! If you’re a blood-bought saint, you will fellowship and evangelize! We need obedient Christians (and we all need to be those Christians) who are willing to minister to others’ needs.
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Time for fellowship is very important. Though personally I’ve never found “fellowship hour” very conducive to it. As an introvert I shrink from a room crowded with people talking, and it’s about the last place I would open up to people. I have pushed myself to meet people there anyway, trying to go outside my comfort zone and meet new people or talk with those I don’t know well. But it’s usually a relief to me when it’s time to leave. (Plus the food offered at most churches, to go with the coffee and punch, is a constant temptation to someone like me who struggles with poor eating habits.)
The places where – in my experience – relationships are built are in small group Bible studies and in doing ministry together (singing in the choir, helping maintain the church grounds, planning a children’s program, organizing the church library, etc.)
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Bianca – 57
You’re right about fellowship after church in homes. My mom often invited people for Sunday dinner –
Churches don’t need more programs, I agree!
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58 – What you said about fellowship hour is true. They can be great if you’re the extroverted glad-hander, mixer type, but they tend not to work so well for quieter people. And so many assemblies tend to have more of the introverted types. In talking to other women, one of the objections they often face is that when they’re new, they don’t know whether a certain conversation circle in the foyer or the courtyard is open to anyone to walk over and chat in or if a more intimate discussion is going on and they’d be an interruption. That’s why I’m for our homes. As a hostess, I can make people feel more at ease than if we’re in some assembly hall.
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Pauline,
I can understand you not wanting to walk into a large group, but have you ever thought that maybe there are others there who are eager to find someone just like you to talk to? – you have spent a great deal of time reading, and in study, you have more to share than you might realize – think of how you might give, rather than what you might receive -
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59 – I think also this is why the homechurch movement is growing in popularity.
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Pauline, I’m an introvert, too. I do better one-on-one than in groups. So I generally end up in the nearly empty sanctuary with one or two other women while my extroverted husband is enjoying participating in a group discussion.
Usually, I end up with women who are a bit like me, which isn’t a bad start for a friendship…we encourage each other in our current season, and lots of Titus 2-type discussions happen (these days’ I’m usually the “older woman”). I have a couple of very close friends now that I found in the after-church hanging-out time (sometimes in the nursing mom’s room) while our kids played ping-pong upstairs and the men watched little ones outside.
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Ironically, it seems that since we women have spoken up, the men have left the men’s thread…sorry, guys!
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Bianca – 62
That might be –
Churches of all sizes serve to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, IF they are really giving out the Word -
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#61
Victoria,
I do try to approach it from that perspective. The easiest way for me to find someone to talk to is to look for someone else who does not seem to have anyone to talk to, and it’s likely to be someone who is new, shy, or an introvert like me. But the noise level from so many simultaneous conversations makes it a poor place to talk. When my husband was pastor, I did my best to make sure newcomers felt welcome, and that no one would be left sitting alone (I remember once being a visitor at a church and feeling terribly unwelcome because not a single person said a word to me in fifteen minutes I was there, trying to look like a visitor eager to meet someone).
But I don’t miss those coffee hours at all. Where I attend now, there’s plenty of coffee and some people stand around and chat, but most of us settle down at tables. There are a whole bunch of classes and small groups that meet after church, including an informal one especially for visitors, another especially for women who don’t feel connected yet, two groups for women who come to church without a husband (for any reason), two for new Christians who want to learn the basics of their faith, and I don’t even know how many like the one I attend, led by laypeople and studying some topic or book of the Bible. (There is a group just for men but it meets on Saturdays – I assume that is by preference of the men in the group. And there are I don’t know how many groups that meet in homes throughout the week – the goal is for most groups to move in that direction.)
We do some study but we spend more time sharing what is going on in our lives, praying for one another, looking for ways to help one another in practical ways (we have one man who has not had work for months and finally decided to go back to college in January and become a teacher, we have a woman having major surgery this Thursday and her mom can’t help a whole lot because she has Parkinsons, another woman’s sister has a severely disabled child and is both depressed and in financial dificulties).
I’ve had training in leading small groups in the past, and indicated an interest in having training again at this church. But at the moment my opportunities to share are more likely to be through a church “newsletter” of sorts, which I volunteered to help write for – it’s not so much about programs and events at the church as about people – what’s behind the familiar faces we see serving in various areas, and what God has been doing in people’s lives that most of us don’t know about.
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Sometimes, I think there are so many things I want to say to the men in church, but as a woman, I feel that it’s not my place.
But I see the feminization of church and it’s no wonder that men don’t want to be in church and don’t find any good fellowship and healing for their hurts. Women have been taking over men’s roles and since the fall (as the fall has made us wont to do), and men have been abdicating their God-given roles and responsibilities, (as the fall has made them wont to do). The problem is, many of the women are more capable and willing than the men. The men are just out of practice. Being out of practice, maybe they feel inadequate for the task, and so are unwilling to rise to the occasion. Women, for their part are only too eager. There’s the rub, if SOMEONE doesn’t do, it won’t get done. Rather than let the job go undone, women have stepped up to the plate. The fall has made both men and women equally culpable.
I MHO, a good part of the men’s lack of fellowship in church is an outgrowth of this.
Our culture is another part of the problem. We are so transient, in jobs (not vocations) and geographically, that men have no opportunity to for friendships of the Jonathan-David variety, and no mentor relationships. These do not develop overnight. My observation – correct me if I’m mistaken, guys – is that male friendships are not easily made, and they require a large amount of trust. In today’s society, most people – men and women – are merely acquaintances, and they keep one another at arm’s length. Fathers and sons no longer work side by side in the family business. Apprentices and journeymen no longer learn from masters of professions to form those mentoring bonds in trades. There is no longer any job loyalty from boss to employee, or from employee to boss the way there used to be. People change jobs like they change their underwear, and that’s just a fact of life in the US in present times.
Men no longer study the Bible with the same vigor as in times past, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that there is only so much time in a man’s day. Time crunches with commutes and family and work obligations are not conducive family life, let alone to any kind of in-depth Bible study. Two income families are the norm these days, often out of necessity.
In the military, where I have lots of experience both as a soldier and a dependent, men don’t want to get all touchy-feely with their co-workers at the community chapels.
A large number of men – about 95% of the men in my family are loners, not because they want to be or choose to be, but because quality friendships aren’t available.
One of the things I want to write about (but I think I have a lack of credibility as a woman advocating against women teaching men) is a Bible study looking at male friendships modeled in the Bible: David and Jonathan, Daniel and his three friends, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego (as they a better known), Jesus and Lazarus, Jesus and the twelve, etc.
I believe that if men today had more God-centered friendships, they would not be hurting as badly as they are. As a woman and on the outside looking in, I have ideas about how to get the ball rolling toward a solution, but I am at a loss as to how to convey them effectively.
I’m sorry I have come so late to this thread.
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Hi Klasko – 67
I was reading the posts here this morning, you had posted something, now its gone, what happened to it?
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Bianca, are you aware that Anthony Bradley is using your comments here to post about over on his main blog? He quotes you and then lets all his regular readers denounce and ridicule you.
http://bradley.chattablogs.com/archives/2008/12/world-magazine.html
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Yesterday I went to our new house being built. When I drove up I could feel the testosterone in the air- five pick-up trucks.
I went in and talked with the cabinet man. His wife had just moved into town in an apartment. His 15 year old adopted son doesn’t take his meds for ADD or ADHD or BiPolar, something… Anyway, his wife and the son have had some physical altercations. The kid is big enough to hurt her and she is scared. I let him know I had had the same kind of problems with our son, all ours are adopted too. I did this to let him know he is not the Lone Ranger.
I talked more with him this morning. I am opening up with him to try to get a relationship going with him. He is hurting.
The plumber was there. He doesn’t let people know he is a Correctional Officer at the local prison, Pelican Bay. I taught kids that end up there or have fathers there.
The electrician was there. He has three girls. They each have a different mother. Well, so do each of our three kids. Being adopted they also have three different fathers.
And then there is the builder. His daughter just had her first baby on Dec 8th. She lives at home in his house with her boyfriend.
Today one of the siding men was there, the other was in court. There will be a story there with each of them, for sure. I know the one who went to court will be going to Iraq with his National Guard unit early next year. I think he is the SAW gunner for his unit.
With all these opportunities to witness and help, I just don’t see how accountability groups or couples Sunday School classes would be of much help. I see the possibilities for being a friend.
If I wasn’t going to a building site, I wouldn’t meet these guys. I was a teacher for 34 years. I never ran into these kind of guys. There were manly men but there were also kids and women around. This environment is just different.
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Night Train
If this is true, who cares? He is makes his views known and so do the rest of us -
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69 – Yes, it’s old news.
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Jellyfish? For daring to state that men have issues that are unacknowledged not only by women but by society in general? How ridiculous. Take a look around, ladies: Society is set up to help you deal with your hurts, but it is NOT doing the same for men. I give you a good example: Pink ribbons everywhere for breast cancer. Do you ever hear about any fund raisers to defeat PROSTATE cancer, which affects only men and kills thousands of us every year? And this “Go red for women” nonsense that I hear every year in the fight against heart disease. Hello?!! Heart disease is one of the number one killers of MEN. WHY are they focusing on only one gender’s suffering in this fight, as though men don’t matter? I keep hearing this and that about one cause after another that “affects our daughters, mothers and wives.” NONE about issues that “affect our sons, husbands and fathers.” Women are almost guaranteed custody of children in divorces, even if the father is just as qualified to parent them. Men tend to die at younger ages because of stress–because men do NOT have the support system women do. Instead of suggesting realistic solutions, you simply say “Be a MAN” when you have NO IDEA what that is. Every struggle in my life I have ever had I have dealt with alone. People just did not want to hear it, because I am…dun dun DUNH! Male. I have been told numerous times I am too “emotional” and “sensitive”. Yet women claim the world would be better off if men were more sensitive! Men don’t open up to each other like women do–you women in the group just don’t seem to get that. Why? Because when women show affection to each other, it’s considered fine. When MEN show affection or caring towards each other, suspicion of homosexuality quickly follows. WAKE UP AND LOOK AT THE GENDER ROLES IN TODAY’S SOCIETY–MEN CANNOT CROSS THE BOUNDARY, WOMEN CAN AND DO EVERY DAY. I find the chauvinism on this thread sad. (Chauvinism- a tendency to prefer one’s own kind over all others, not just men being sexist. Another example of what I’m talking about there.) I’m damn tired (pardon my Klingon) of being told to “suck it up”. I have sucked it up for years. And guess what? I’m not going to take it any more. I have the same right to emotional support as any other human being. As far as getting out there and fixing some old ladies’ lawn mower, either practice what you preach or be quiet. Men are not magically born with some sort of “fix it” gene–I cannot repair a mechanical device to save my life. However, I am an excellent cook. Funny how skills aren’t confined to your narrow little worldview of gender roles, no?
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Oh, and by the way, you have a lot of nerve calling me a jellyfish and saying I indulge in masochism. Chemical depression is a real issue, and I do not enjoy hurting myself. Please read the rules about personal attacks.
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Barracuda,
My extended family has had to deal with depression. It is difficult for everyone, but I think you’re right that men have fewer opportunities to develop close friendships, and thus move past the hurts.
My husband and I were discussing friendship just a week or so ago, and he really doesn’t have anyone he’s close to on a consistent basis, and has just one godly friend who would “be there for him” no matter what–he lives in another state. (And I think that may be more than many men have.)
I also think that we, men and women alike, get “stuck” in our own hurts. We are to dwell on things, but not on our own hurts. Which is different than talking things through and learning and applying Scriptural principles.
The distinction that helped me was that we are not to rehearse wrongs done to us. That just lends to a root of bitterness.
I think you and Bianca are both addressing valid concerns, but the discussion is not either/or. Men need help in this journey, just like women do. Paul had companions who ministered to him. He was close to other men, calling some his “sons in the faith”.
Modern people, though, are also pretty soft. We tend to be wounded by hardships rather than strengthened by them. There is a healthy middle ground between pretending there is no problem vs. wallowing and being overcome by the problems.
May God grant you a biblically solid, compassionate friend who will help you discern what you need to address and deal with, and what wrongs against you you should just cover with love (1 Cor). May God give you someone “with skin on” who can love you with an unconditional, affectionate, iron-sharpening-iron kind of love.
And maybe someone you can mow lawns with!
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Momof5 – I agree. I tried to write in #48 & #52 pretty much what you wrote in #75.
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Barracuda – My husband is an excellent cook, too, for which I am ever grateful.
You do have some legitimate gripes, but I do have explanations for a couple things.
On the breast cancer vs. prostate cancer issue – I’m pretty sure that breast cancer is more deadly than prostate cancer. My husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer 3 years ago, at age 50 (which is considered quite young to have it).
Even though the whole prostate was already filled with cancer, & it had probably already metastasized, he was told that without treatment he could live another 10 – 15 years. With treatment, much more. Many older men are not even treated because they will most probably die of something else before the prostate cancer would get them.
As for the “Go red for women” thing, it has only been in recent years that doctors are trying to get the word out that more & more women are dying of heart disease, but their symptoms can be very different from the ones expected (which are based on what men experience).
For many years, medical studies were conducted with men & the results based on the male physiology. So I think what we’re seeing is a swing of the pendulum.
One of the reasons married men tend to live longer than single men is that their wives “make” them go to the doctor when something’s wrong, & encourage them to have the various tests they need (colonoscopies, PSA tests, etc.).
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Barracuda
YOU WRITE: “Pink ribbons everywhere for breast cancer. Do you ever hear about any fund raisers to defeat PROSTATE cancer, which affects only men and kills thousands of us every year?”
Breast cancer? I lost a great friend age 35 to breast cancer, however I’ve never heard of a guy losing his life at this age to prostate cancer – Breast cancer can take a woman’s life within just a few years, WITH TREATMENT – Prostate cancer can be controlled for a very long time. You certainly aren’t aware of the difference of disease death rate.
YOU WRITE: “And this “Go red for women” nonsense that I hear every year in the fight against heart disease. Hello?!! Heart disease is one of the number one killers of MEN.”
Heart disease has always been thought of as a man’s disease, but that isn’t true – again I lost a friend age 40 from a heart attack while enjoying a Sunday in the pool of one of our friends – it was a massive attack, she left 3 daughters – the emphasis is now on women and men, NOT JUST MEN –
YOU WRITE: “Women are almost guaranteed custody of children in divorces, even if the father is just as qualified to parent them.”
This is blatantly false, men do receive custody – more often than not, both the father and mother receive equal custody – where on earth have you been for the past 10 years?
YOU WRITE: “Men tend to die at younger ages because of stress–because men do NOT have the support system women do.”
Maybe you haven’t discovered, read about, known the many women who have been left with children to support as the husband has run off with someone else, and most certainly doesn’t want to pay child support – That my friend is REAL STRESS –
For whatever reason, I have lost a lot of my dearest friends at an early age – breast cancer, heart attack, ovarian cancer, lymphoma, diabetes, leukemia, spine cancer – these are ALL women – all but two left a husband and children, that should give you something to think about -
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Something to think about? Like what, that bad things happen to good people? I already knew that. You don’t SOLVE these problems by devaluing someone else’s suffering and lifting up your own, which is what these movements seem to say-that men’s problems just aren’t as important as women’s. You just don’t get it, Victoria–men are equal to you, and have their own problems. You are not going to convince me that men have it easier than women, no matter how you fool yourself into believing so. God gave us our own set of burdens in the Fall of Man, just as he gave women theirs. It is wrong to judge men’s issues when you have never experienced them for yourself, period. How many women have demanded that the man provide for them financially, then fooled around behind his back and justified it by saying that he never had time for them? Well, duh–he was too busy working to pay for that stuff they wanted. Pure and simple, you keep trying to paint this as one sided, poor women, those evil men just don’t get how good they have it, they need to be more involved in church blah blah blah. I was involved in church. My spiritual needs were ignored there, and I didn’t start to grow until I started spending time by myself in prayer and reflection. Your “mow the lawn” comment is offensive to me–how would you like it if I told you “get in the kitchen”?
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“Maybe you haven’t discovered, read about, known the many women who have been left with children to support as the husband has run off with someone else, and most certainly doesn’t want to pay child support – That my friend is REAL STRESS”
You got that right
It was more stress in one way and a relief in another!
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This is sensational – men want to have a group who will support them throughout their trials – however they don’t put these groups together THEMSELVES, instead they cry and whine that they don’t have them – further more then conclude that women have them, and women have friendships with other women, but they (men) don’t have the same opportunities –
What I have read throughout this thread is: ‘Some men’ want special groups to feel their pain and whatever they are dealing with – but at the same time they grumble that women have these groups – It appears that the men would like the women in their lives, or those in churches to put together a group for these men to ‘find their inner selves’ OR to ‘bond together’ – what has stopped ‘these’ men from doing it themselves?
If men want these ‘groups’ then why don’t they form them? – do they believe because they don’t have them, women should make these groups available? – are men reverting to their mommy days, that certainly appears to be the case since they can’t form these groups themselves, but just sit in the corners and complain how UNFAIR it all is.
Bradley writes: “Many men do sinful things not out of a rebellious spirit but to self-medicate real pain. We all find ways to deal with pain, and sometimes it opens the door for sin.
A rebellious spirit IS SIN, it will always open a door – All sin is a rebellious spirit, if it isn’t – give me the book, chapter and verse to prove your point –
IF you guys want a group to complain to, then form one – don’t expect the women in your lives, or the church to perform the tasks which you should be able to do yourself, since you are all of age – This is one of the most cry-baby threads I have ever read on any board.
GET A GRIP!
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You may want to read what the Bible says about a judgmental spirit before you go patting yourself on the back too hard for your remarkable strength in the face of us cry baby men, Victoria.
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Hey Barracuda,
You might want to take your own advice, before you start pointing fingers -
Instead of complaining, why don’t you start a group at your church?
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The sad thing about all of this is, if as men AND WOMEN we all whine about what the church can do for us, no one will minister to anyone.
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You’re right, Bianca – whining about things is something both sexes are all too capable & prone to doing.
It’s a good idea to try to be or find a solution to the problem.
When, as a young stay-at-home mom, I felt a need for fellowship with other women, I talked to the leader of our Women’s Ministry to start a ladies’ Bible study, which met in our homes. If she hadn’t have been interested, I could have started it myself.
Barracuda – I pray you will find peace about the issues that disturb you.
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Barracuda – Even though I was not the one to mention mowing lawns, I will say that I don’t believe the comment was intended to be offensive in any way. I think “mowing lawns” was simply an example of a way to minister to someone in need.
As one who enjoys cooking, you could find joy in cooking up something for an invalid or new parents or someone else in need.
As I alluded in one of my comments here, it is beneficial to one’s spiritual/emotional health to help others, but still be dealing with (vs. dwelling on) one’s emotional issues. Do the one, but don’t neglect the other.
God bless.
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Amen, Sister Karen. “Mowing Lawns” is just another way of saying that we are to “serve” and wash the feet of the saints.
And I’m glad you mentioned the cooking! If one is gifted at it, then let him use it. Receiving a meal from brethren in the Church is wonderful and so is bringing over a nice pot of soup, stew or a casserole over to someone’s home. It shows a lot of love.
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I often personalize something I hear to read to myself. I try to find how God wants me to react. This article struck a chord in me. I have cried myself to sleep over an emotional hurt. I distinctly remember waking up in the middle of the night knowing what a problem one of my children would have with a particular sin; I was right. I am not sure that sin has been conquered.
Maybe women can talk about any of their sins and/or temptations with good friends or in women’s groups at church. I don’t know.
I can think of a few temptations/sins for men that absolutely can’t be talked about.
“I touched my daughter/granddaughter last night.”
“I touched my son/grandson last night.”
“My wife keeps saying no to sex.”
“I have sex with my sister. We’re going to keep doing it.”
” I am having sex with my daughter-in-law. (mother-in-law)”
I suppose women have these same sorts of problems, but I would venture to guess that they are not talked about in peer accountability groups by either sex. To make light of these besetting sins doesn’t help to handle them. These types of sins may need confession to a brother or sister in Christ. Confessing sins can be a powerful thing in a Christian’s life. At the same time, it is scary and hard.
It can be just as hard talking about things that were done to us. “Be a man.”is just as easy as “Get over it.”
Emotional hurt can fester for years.
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Accusing us of whining or self-pity or laziness or “naval” gazing or “indulging in masochism” is not solving the problem. It is fueling it. We’re not whining about a booboo that we want our mommy to kiss and make better. We’re screaming in frustration, because nobody cares — they just tell us to look the other way and act like we have no problems.
That, I think, is what Barracuda is getting at. If you’d rather make fun of him for not living up to his monicker, fine. We’d rather be made fun of than ignored.
I’m sorry you don’t get it.
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Cuthalion – 91
Why don’t you start a group, what’s stopping you? – maybe going to your pastor and asking him to help you form one – When a person sees a need, believes there should be help in a particular area, they are more likely than not, to be the one to start the group, rather than nagging others to start it for him -
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Regarding the offensiveness of mowing lawns…
Is that offensive or not? You tell me.
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@92 Victoria
Because we already have one. It’s very nice. I like it a lot. However, it’s only once every other week, and beyond that, I get to spend maybe 15 minutes per week with other guys. And no time with any single young ladies.
Incidentally, the one and only guys’ group we do have was started by the pastor in order to foster friendships between our men and allow us to learn from each other. So it’s a step in the right direction, but it’s not a magic pill.
But now that we have our little group — and lots of other guys still don’t — I guess I should man up and pretend everything’s better? Maybe I’ll get in the yard and mow somebody’s snow.
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Cuthalion – 93
Where have you been? Women do cook nice meals, as far as kniting socks – are you aware that people give to those in need?
Spend your time solving the problem – or do you want the women and the mom’s in your church to ‘fix’ it? Take the steps needed to speak to your pastor, offer to help start the group -
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Cuthalion – 94
Maybe you need to re-organize your time – Does your life have a bright side?
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Cuthalion – I believe we women have been writing from our own experiences (I know I have). We are not suggesting anything we have not done ourselves.
Please note that I have emphasized the need to deal with a problem or hurt, but at the same time not neglecting to be of help to others who may need us. Maybe all you can manage to bring yourself to do is pray. Whatever it is you can do for others, do it all for the Lord.
And in ministering to others, in person or not, you will find yourself also ministered to, by the Holy Spirit.
I have seen my husband go through various struggles in his life. I have much sympathy for men (& women) who struggle with emotional pain. (I suspect we all struggle with that pain to one extent or another.)
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Also, Cuthalion & Barracuda – My pastor’s wife once told us how she had been in deep pain over something, but it was something she could not share (for various reasons) with anybody.
As she lay on the floor, sobbing in her need & pain, God “spoke” to her that she has Him! God is the God of all comfort, the Holy Spirit is our Comforter & Counselor.
Even we women have things we can’t or won’t share with others, but God is always available, & He cares for us better than any mere human can.
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. 1 Peter 5:6&7.
Cast your burden on the Lord, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved. Psalm 55:22
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Sorry, Karen. You’ve been both practical and kind in this discussion. It’s mostly a couple peoples’ responses to Barracuda that ticked me off.
#96 Victoria – It does have a bright side, fortunately. Though for a few weeks (ending a little after my first post at the beginning of this thread), I was kind of depressed. As in, why-bother-to-get-out-of-bed-nothing-I-do-ever-matters. But I’m feeling better these last few days. Nothing really changed, but I feel better anyway, so I guess God must’ve answered my prayers for help with a “yes”.
I think the problem brought up in this topic is that people’s attitudes make things harder than they need to be. Yes, it’s possible to deal with things on one’s own with God’s help. But an unwillingness to be part of God’s help is the problem. Telling someone to “suck it up and pray” — which, at least in my case, they’ve probably been doing for some time — is akin to a doctor telling a sick man to “suck it up and pray”.
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And thank you for the verses. (I posted #99 before I read your #98.) Remembering God’s promises and doing as the Bible instructs certainly helps, but that doesn’t give grounds for male pain to be “dismissed, ignored, or confused with sin”, as Bradley puts it. God left us on earth for a reason: He uses people.
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I agree, Cuthalion.
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#90 Bob Buckles
“I can think of a few temptations/sins for men that absolutely can’t be talked about.”
I was right.
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Bob 102
YOU WRITE: “I was right. “
Right you are – you might not know this, but anyone who hears of, listens to a story from anyone who has ‘touched a minor child’ would by law be turned into the authorities, you as a teacher should know this, but if you don’t you do now.
The first two scenarios which you describe in post 90 (if they were told to a counselor, doctor, or pastor) would be cause to inform authorities of misconduct towards a child under 18. This should answer your question as to why NO ONE is responding –
Don’t play those here on the blog for fools, the five things which you gave in post 90 are vile, they go way beyond a group at church trying to solve – To tell you the truth, I’m shocked that you have posted this, not to mention the follow up in post 102 –
Anyone with these sorts of maladies, needs to seek medical and spiritual help ASAP -
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93 – No, it’s not offensive at all. These are things that are good to do.
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103 – I was thinking the same thing, Victoria. That’s why I stopped posting on this thread for a bit.
I do agree with Bob that we indeed struggle with grave and uncomfortable sins as God’s people, but Christian men struggling with a desire to harm their own children in a perverse way like that? No way. A man who does that isn’t even saved and is probably reprobate. These are things that are disgusting even to most non-believers.
I suppose in the modern antinomian seeker-sensitive definition of the Church where it’s come one come all, there are men in the Church who do this and other vile wickedness, but in a Church that’s meant for the gathering of believers, these things are simply not issues. Godly men are not sex perverts.
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Apparently you’ve forgotten the verse in which Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. So too, I have come not to help the righteous, but the sinful.”
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Victoria and Bianca
You are right that those things go way beyond a help group at church. Men often feel that the things that afflict them are also not things to be brought up in help groups at church. That, I think, is just what Anthony Bradley was trying to say.
Men don’t feel that their emotional problems are welcome at church.
This was a good discussion until a few of you hijacked the discussion to “help groups.” It also felt like sneering about the very idea that men should be able to talk about “emotional problems.” Do you not see that you killed the discussion and the thread?
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Not to mention that your condescending self righteous attitude has made most men reading this thread tune out what you were saying. Karen, thank you for bringing a more compassionate female voice to this thread. At least you are willing to show some sympathy for men’s struggles, even if you don’t entirely understand them.
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Bob – 107
Loving men doesn’t mean the church HIDES criminal acts, child molestation is just that, it is a criminal act, it needs to be reported – The Roman Catholic Church hid these acts for years, until it was revealed that there was sexual abuse which had not been brought to the attention ASAP of the respective police departments.
NO ONE HIJACKED the discussion – You have now tried to turn the coin by making some of the women on this thread the problem instead of what you have posted which is nothing less than criminal acts which should be solved elsewhere.
Bob, what you posted in post 90 below:
The above are criminal acts, they should by law be reported to the police department ASAP, it is not something which a church has any right to SOLVE on its own – if it tried, the church would be breaking the law –
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109 – The above are criminal acts, they should by law be reported to the police department ASAP, it is not something which a church has any right to SOLVE on its own – if it tried, the church would be breaking the law –
Amen.
107 – Do you not see that you killed the discussion and the thread?
Looks alive and well to me. A dead thread would be Andree’s
Adiophara [sic} thread. Stick a fork in that one. It be doned.
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“#64 BY MOMOF5 12.16.08 AT 3:24 PM
Ironically, it seems that since we women have spoken up, the men have left the men’s thread…sorry, guys! “
You may have found this thread interesting but it seems like men haven’t.
As for my “What ifs” I know it is illegal and despicable, but just because it is so evil does that mean we never admit that it is out there? Have you ever heard this mentioned in church? I haven’t but not because it never happens.
When I was still living at home, 1947-1973, people, the church and the law looked at homosexuality in the same light. Are you so sure that we should be ostriches?
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Bob – 111
Everyone knows that child molestation is “out there” – you pose two different sides now –
1. a person admitting they do such things in post 90
2. then now in post 111 asking if this is ever mentioned in church
Of course people discuss perverts who do such things to children, and yes, even in church – what is YOUR POINT? Have you never heard of grown adults talking about child abuse they suffered as young children, telling of their own experiences? I certainly have.
YOU WRITE:
“Maybe women can talk about any of their sins and/or temptations with good friends or in women’s groups at church. I don’t know.
I can think of a few temptations/sins for men that absolutely can’t be talked about.
“I touched my daughter/granddaughter last night.”
“I touched my son/grandson last night.”
If a man or woman came to a church group and made the above sort of admission, it would be the responsbility of the group, or leader to bring it to the ATTENTION of the local police department. There is no other way around it. If someone came to me privately and made this admission, I would report it, – it is the moral and right thing to do, PROTECTING children is everyones responsibility -
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#112 Victoria
You are right.
I was trying to get the thread back to the idea that it is hard for men to be taken seriously that they have problems, emotional problems. Sin problems-both their own sins and other people’s sins put on them.
When one poster stated that he was in emotional pain because of hurts from his past, he was told to grow-up, go cut someone’s lawn. If he helped someone else, he wouldn’t have the emotional pain.
Some piled on.
When I have a splinter I can’t see well, I would like some one to take it out and to give me some TLC. I think many early posters would like some TLC. Don’t we all?
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Bob,
For what it’s worth, I’ve been following this thread as a lurker, not posting because I’m a woman and I thought that if and when women chimed in, it would derail the thread. But I have long thought it would be hard to be a man in our society, when men are under suspicion from all angles. If he has a male friend, they might be homosexuals–and they sure better not touch each other unless it’s a heart slap on the back or someting related to sports. If he takes a child in his lap, he’s under suspicion as a predator (in spite of the fact that a father’s love is the best protector against sexual sin for boys and girls both). He’s supposed to be strong, yet cry at the right times for women to feel he’s sensitive. He’s supposed to lead without trampling her need to be a strong woman who isn’t under any man’s heel. He’s seen as a closet porn-viewer, would-be abuser, probable adulterer, etc.
I’ve often been glad God made me a woman. I’m a single woman who has female housemates, and thus I have to be somewhat careful in our day that people not think I’m a lesbian (and people in the church tend to see married people as more “adult” than singles are)…but I can be close friends with other women without anyone thinking anything of it. This afternoon I called a friend just because I needed to cry. I have a couple of friends who kiss me on the cheek. Women can hold hands or walk arm in arm. Women can confide just about anything. Women can spend hours together just talking. Women can cuddle children, even other people’s children. Intimacy is simply acceptable in female society. I think our culture has given men a bum rap, and the church has been complicit. It is more OK to hug, and to form close friendships, in the church than outside it–but I still think that men are seen as the gender that cannot quite be trusted, and the one that needs no one because he’s strong.
And BTW, as to men having no role but to support women–I don’t remember who said that, but it struck me how backward that is, since women were put on earth to be men’s helpers. When we have a society full of lonely men, something is wrong with women’s choices. And I think it’s unfortunate that women came on here largely not to encourage, but to judge.
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You certainly don’t speak for me, or the many women I know, we don’t fit your description at all. Maybe it’s because we dated in school and afterwards, we have a better understanding of those great big wonderful guys we call our husbands.
Where you have come up with these ideas must be from books, or women who have negative relationships with men, it certainly doesn’t pan out with the millions upon millions of women who love and trust their husbands and the husbands of our friends and families.
It would most likely serve you well, if you didn’t try to put negative tags on the way people view men, just speak for yourself.
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Victoria,
I didn’t think I spoke for you…but even though I’m not married, I do have five brothers, and they do talk to me. (I also have 14 nephews. We have a very male-dominant family.) I didn’t say that you and I have these thoughts about men, but that they’re cultural thoughts.
A few months ago, I heard about a pastor who was chastised because he and his teenage son did nursery duty together. Sorry, if you don’t trust your pastor in the nursery without a woman to watch him (and trust me, many, many churches do not trust men in the nursery), then the cultural distrust of men is fairly widespread. You may not have these thoughts about men (though I daresay you have equally negative thoughts about all human beings, based on your comments on this blog), but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.
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And Victoria, yes, my last comment was a little snippy, and perhaps uncalled for. But my note 114 was to someone else, meant for encouragement to someone else, and as I pointed out in it, I spent several days reading posts on this thread without saying a word. In other words, I controlled my “tongue” and didn’t speak. I finally did speak words of encouragement, and got attacked for doing so. Quite frankly, I’m not in the mood–and I’m certainly not in the mood for being called “negative” when I was being encouraging, and being called negative by someone who seems to have the spiritual gift of discouragement. I know that you probably are more encouraging in real life than on this blog, but I was not the negative poster on this thread. (No reply needed.)
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Cheryl – 116
YOU WRITE POST 116 : “I didn’t think I spoke for you…but even though I’m not married, I do have five brothers, and they do talk to me. (I also have 14 nephews. We have a very male-dominant family.) I didn’t say that you and I have these thoughts about men, but that they’re cultural thoughts.
Here are just six of your view – they have nothing to do with your brothers, you are making these statements as YOUR OWN. Some of your comments in post in post 114
1 “But I have long thought it would be hard to be a man in our society, when men are under suspicion from all angles.”
2 “if he has a male friend, they might be homosexuals–and they sure better not touch each other”
3 “If he takes a child in his lap, he’s under suspicion as a predator “
4 “He’s seen as a closet porn-viewer, would-be abuser, probable adulterer, etc.”
5 “I think our culture has given men a bum rap, and the church has been complicit.”
6 “I still think that men are seen as the gender that cannot quite be trusted, and the one that needs no one because he’s strong.”
1. Men are not under suspicion from all angles
2. Men have friends Cheryl, because they do, does not put them under suspicion.
3. Men hold their friends and relatives children, no one thinks a thing about it.
4. Can you prove this is the way society views men?
5. “the church has been complicit.” – Please tell me how this has happened, since the definition for “complicit is – involved in something illegal: involved in something illegal or wrong – Are you speaking of the Roman Catholic Church?
6. You might think this way, but I know very few women who feel men can’t be trusted.
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Cheryl 116
YOU WRITE: “You may not have these thoughts about men (though I daresay you have equally negative thoughts about all human beings, based on your comments on this blog), but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.”
“All human beings” ? – that remark alone is nonsensical, even you must be able to see how it makes no sense, and has no truth attached to it. Pathetic!
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I admitted above (our posts crossed) that that comment was a little snippy.
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Thank you, Cheryl D.
Encouragement accepted and enjoyed.
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Cheryl – 120
You write: “A “little snippy”
Your post 116 had:
“no truth attached to it. Pathetic” – As I stated in post 119, it went way over being “snippy” Cheryl -
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Thanks so much, Cheryl D. It’s nice to hear a woman acknowledge the prevalent attitudes toward men.
You are absolutely right on all of those attitudes, and I’m glad you (presumably) don’t share them. But even I, as a man, have been trained never, ever to touch anyone except my girlfriend/wife or parents or old people, unless it’s sports or a handshake. I even look with suspicion on any man who does!
It’s very sad.
Victoria, I don’t know where you live or what church you go to, but know that the situation you describe is an exception and a blessing.
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Victoria #122, etc.
I don’t get it. “though I daresay you have equally negative thoughts about all human beings, based on your comments on this blog” is far less offensive that half the stuff you say. Which brings us to why she said that in the first place.
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113 – Bob, he was told to SERVE. That’s what we all should be doing. Mowing the lawn is ONE THING. Then the kid said he could cook. FINE! HE NEEDS TO COOK, THEN!
GET OFF THE LAWN JUNK! It was an example, for crying out loud!
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How do you know that I don’t serve? You don’t even know me! You assume an awful lot because it fits your prejudices-obviously, if I’m in pain, I’m not serving, because if I was, I wouldn’t be in pain! Your circular reasoning is so flawed it astounds me you’re still standing there defending it–do you think Jesus would show the utter lack of compassion you are? He helped those in pain-he didn’t stand there pointing fingers saying “Well, you aren’t doing enough for others, obviously.”
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Wow. This was an encouraging thread for a while.
My hubbie is a better man when he has good male friendships. Iron sharpens iron. He has somebody to talk with who can understand from his perspective and give him feedback that is useful. I like it when he has that. Right now, when he is home, he is learning to develop friendships outside his age range and that is a good thing.
One of the blessings of this renovation is the men coming together and having time to talk. As mentioned we have a wide range of people in varying conditions and they are a help to one another. The healthy ones give a strong example of following the Lord and continue to develop compassion for those in other circumstances, the less healthy ones have a positive place to develop new life habits and the kids from troubled backgrounds get to see men working together in a positive way for a positive goal, talking with the kids and interacting with them as positive father types. Thanks to God for bringing these strong models into the lives of my children.
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My aim in my own comments has been to encourage, not judge. I hope that came through.
Cheryl – I agree with you about how society views men. My friend’s father is a very outgoing, loving man who loves children. But when he approaches kids to smile & chat a little with them, he gets some very suspicious looks from others. It’s very sad.
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To clarify that a bit – I don’t think most people suspect the men they know personally of being a possible-pervert (unless there’s a reason to), but look on men we don’t know as being suspicious.
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If Cheryl said that her OWN comment was snippy and perhaps uncalled for, why can’t that be good enough for you, Victoria?? Seems like her ability to admit that is a good example for us to follow.
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Reg
Correction, forget ’snippy’ – the last paragraph wasn’t true in that particular post!
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POST 116 – revisited -
It appears I need to go over this once again.
POSTED: “You may not have these thoughts about men (though I daresay you have equally negative thoughts about all human beings, based on your comments on this blog), but that doesn’t mean they aren’t out there.”
equally negative thoughts about all human beings,”
I have the utmost respect for my family, friends, and countless people whom I don’t discuss here on the blog, that would also include Churches, and those who serve the LORD in many areas – also aquaintences who do or don’t know the LORD as their Savior – however I have shared many stories about my life, changing the names for obvious reasons.
The post above, and my defending my position against it, although referred to as only ’snippy’ later on – holds no water, but in fact is blatantly untrue-
I have always enjoyed Peter Leavitt, NJL, Michael Martin, Outkast, Drill, David L, KRM, Joel Mark, Xion, to name just a few, and there are others whom I enjoy reading – I don’t always agree with Klasko, Peter L, Sawgunner, REE, Pauline Bianca, but I enjoy their posts. I’m certain I’ve left some people’s names out whom I enjoy reading and agree with most of the time. This is the reason which makes the statement above from post 116 blatantly untrue.
I have a negative view of sin – the issues here on the blog are controversial for the most part, that’s why people come here to read and post – I would never be shy to make my views known when it comes to some subjects, as others certainly are outspoken about theirs – a blog is a venue for one to express their beliefs much differently than if they were in their 3D environment –
My experience before my career, including all the people I’ve known would never bring me to believe that men fit the categories which were mentioned in post 116 – its not logical nor a fair assessment of men. There are both men and women who are not trustworthy, however I don’t believe for a moment that the vast majority of men are of the ilk which was mentioned in post 116 – nor do I believe thinking women go about believing the worst about men. God made man and women, HE didn’t make women less sinful than men, lets not forget that.
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Victoria, it’s good to see you expressing a positive assessment of some people on this blog. It really is. I wish for you the gift of seeing yourself as you come across to others, rather consistently, on this blog–partly because I believe your attitude often turns unbelievers off, in an offense that is not the offense of the Gospel.
But for right now, I didn’t mean to strike a nerve. I was, quite frankly, annoyed at your misinterpretation of my words, as you are annoyed at my words here. I spoke flippantly, and came back to say I had done so. I couldn’t exactly say I was “sorry,” because I wasn’t–but I could acknowledge that my words were flippant. I am sorry, at this point, that I seem to have hurt you. But it looks like my words also made you think about all the people on this blog you DO appreciate, which is a good exercise for you and for them. So perhaps unintentionally, I was iron sharpening iron for you.
Friends?
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And no, I don’t believe any of the stereotypes of men I listed there either–that was my point. It must be annoying to belong to a gender that has all those stereotypes ranged against it. I think it’s hard to be a man in our culture; that was what I was saying.
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Cheryl,
I think and pray about ALL the people on this blog constantly – obviously you aren’t aware of that. You havn’t made me think of those on this blog, because as I said, I PRAY for them constantly, therefore thinking of them as I pray for their needs, and this means you too.
Have a wonderful week, and Merry Christmas -
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Victoria, thank you, and I do appreciate that. Merry Christmas to you as well.
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Well, that was a grueling read but it’s good to see some resolution to this thread!
Here’s an open question: what role is there for a young man like myself in today’s world?
I don’t think it’s enough to just work and save as I do now; I have a need for a greater challenge or task. The “Christian” answer would be to go into “ministry,” but honestly there are plenty of pastors and it seems like missionaries (to foreign countries) are mostly out-of-date plus I’m no good with people to start. I don’t see any role for young men in the Church (as it exists today) other than to get married and take care of their family! I’ll be too old for that before I even know it and at 23 I already feel past the acceptable age of marriage.
The main battle I could see myself joining is that against abortion (I can’t stand the fact that, if the aborted children from the USA alone were a country of their own it would be in the top 10% of countries by population! 50 million killed, and they called the Holocaust a holocaust? Don’t get me started…) but I hardly think a “man” could be seen as a useful voice so that’s out the window. It’s a “women’s issue, thanks…” Where’s the eye-rolling emoticon?
Raising a family would be a great challenge and task but who would want to marry someone that has no other goal or purpose in life? I don’t want to marry someone simply because I have nothing better to do! That wouldn’t be fair to her.
I guess I just need some motivation in life… It’s easy to see how, at particular times in history, the young men join revolutions and whatnot.
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JohnV,
Do you know a man you really look up to? Spending time helping a mentor do whatever he needs to get done in order to carve out time to get to know him better might be an option.
An added plus would be helping someone doing admirable work to get more done, and learn the theology/character that drives him.
Besides that, you’d get better in some skill sets!
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JohnV,
What momof5 said. Our older boys had no idea what they wanted to do, but they helped men of character with their tasks and in so doing, learned their own interests as well as developing strong character traits. We have a man working on the place now, in his mid thirties, to pick up the skills and habits that will help him be a better husband, dad, and neighbor as well as helping him get to know the things of God better.
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Momof5, I’m sure you meant well, but you’ve just described a state that can be referred to as “idling or making useless progress”. If JohnV’s anything like me, he doesn’t want to just do something, he wants to do something! So just hanging around watching someone when he’s in the physical prime of his life probably isn’t what he’s looking for. It may be better than just surviving, but surely God’s got something bigger in store!
I like to think there’s something big to do just waiting around the corner. Unfortunately, that may just be my pride talking. But I hope not.
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Then again, Mumsee makes a good point. JohnV may very well find out what he needs to do by hanging around a sort of mentor.
Personally, I just don’t want to end up like the guy who buried his responsibility. Jesus didn’t seem to approve of that kind of strategy.
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My grown kids see that a lot in the people with whom they went to college. Several of their friends and acquaintances, after graduation, picked up low paying or end of the line jobs with no future, some living at home with mom some living with a group of roomies and all spending lots of time thinking how sad it is they have not yet found the big thing they are going to do. But they are not out looking or even moving so they will bump into the big thing! Seems a lot of people think that life is about the big things while it is really about the day to day life and the interactions with others where we are showing people God and the eternal Hope. As the Army commercials used to say, “Life. Be in it.”
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I wasn’t clear, but I do have an occupation as an electrical engineer and I love my work. I just don’t think it’s enough – I can only work so many hours a week and I don’t want my life to focus on my work. Being a workaholic may be acceptable but it isn’t to me. I see it as a way to support something else, something better but don’t have anything there.
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Jesus was a carpenter – certainly anyone who worked with HIM was most fortunate –
Many young people today believe they need to find the ‘really big thing’ to do, yet miss all the joy they could experience by working along side someone, helping until then, whatever ‘then’ brings -
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John V,
I don’t know much about what an electrical engineer does, but I remember seeing an article about a partnership between some electrical engineering school and Habitat for Humanity, to find better ways to build low-cost homes. If there is a chapter of Habitat for Humanity in your area, maybe you could see how your skills might be able to help them.
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Great suggestion Pauline.
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John V,
Or do something totally outside of your field and that is where coming alongside kicks in. A lot of older folk in the church are busily volunteering here there and everywhere, find one and go along, your eyes may well be opened to interesting things. I am still shocked when somebody with a normal life comes along and gets a glimpse of what suffering goes on in the lives of children in America. It seems so common to me having worked with these kids for years, I forget that the “normal” person has no idea until one ventures in and is overwhelmed with the pain. There are many many avenues of assistance, just step through the door.
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Actually we have, as a company, helped at HfH worksites – nothing particularly related to our field but apparently we were a good, useful group. I guess a lot of groups don’t get much done but we’re pretty hands-on.
I did enjoy it and would help out regularly if I could find the right connections. I’ll have to check it out next spring…
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Cuthalion,
That’s why I advised spending time helping out an admirable man. If he’s admirable, he’s probably involved in worthwhile activities. Whether it’s long-term or short-term, no service is wasted. You may learn a skill or character trait that God intends for you to get BEFORE the big calling.
My husband is big on this because he was a very gifted, but small-hearted young man. God used some humbling circumstances to curb his pride and grow his heart. THEN he was ready for bigger responsibilities.
A dear friend of mine warns us homeschool mommies not to contribute to the “big head, small heart” phenomenon that seems to be common in homeschool children, who can tend to be the center of their little universes.
Service is the key. Whether it’s serving a needy neighbor, or serving a powerful politician in a campaign, service has the potential to widen your world and enlarge your heart.
The prime of life, when you’re young and strong and adventurous, is a great time to start!
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