Is the pope Catholic?
John Allen, senior correspondent for The National Catholic Reporter, offered in Friday’s New York Times a moderating interpretation of the Vatican’s recent statement, “Dignity of a Person.” Allen’s concern is that conservative Catholics will view the statement, which condemns embryonic stem cell research among other scientific tinkerings with human life, as a call to arms against a decidedly pro-abortion incoming American president.
“Call to arms” is hyperbole, but it pales in comparison to Allen’s rhetoric, which claims that Pope Benedict XVI’s latest document on life “risks being read as encouragement for the most ardent pro-life forces in America to let slip the dogs of war.” He also frets that the pope’s document “may be the political equivalent of shouting ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater.”
To counteract all this dog unleashing and theater shouting, Allen counsels the pope to find some way to “mobilize those Catholics who hope to build bridges.” He doesn’t want “strategic silence” on abortion, he says, but this rings a bit hollow after extended hand-wringing at the damage done by vocally Catholic pro-life leaders. Perhaps Allen isn’t advocating strategic silence, but he does seem to call for less forceful talk. After all, if the pope says something that convinces Catholics that abortion is truly evil, we might “unleash the dogs of war.” By all means, Pope Benedict, don’t be strategically silent, but on the other hand, would you mind toning it down a bit? It’s the kind of false verbal parsing one expects out of a congressional office.
In effect, what Allen is asking is for the pope not to be Catholic. Or at least that he be less conspicuously so out of consideration for the tender American situation, which is fascinating insofar as Allen begins his essay by noting that Americans comprise only 6 percent of the global Catholic population. But Obama holds out the possibility, Allen reasons, of doing so much good on other issues valued by Catholics worldwide, like banning cluster bombs. That may well be true, but it baffles the mind how any political observer—especially one who has made his living studying the intricacies of the modern Catholic Church—can conclude that long-term good ever comes from muting dogma for temporal gain. In the end both tend to be weakened, the faith as well as how it is lived.
I’m being unreasonable. Allen contrasts the seemingly warlike, irresponsibly active pro-life Christians he disdains with the more reasonable sort of Christian, who upon surveying Obama’s anti-life positions is “troubled” but eager to find the holy common ground. I don’t like being unreasonable, but it seems to me that if one is going to embrace an unreasonable doctrine, then one will at least occasionally be required to behave unreasonably. There is no reason, after all, in picking up one’s cross and following the bloody-browed Messiah unto death. “Listen to reason,” Peter might as well have said to Christ, having worked out already in his mind the most reasonable path to the Savior’s reign. We are not called to reason, as the reasoned tone of the very first lie (”Did God really say?”) ought to remind us, if it’s not too unreasonable yet to thumb through our Bibles.
So, contra Allen, if you ask me whether abortion is a murderous, bloody evil that ought frequently to be put in front of the average Christian, I’ll answer you with an old question that is still, thankfully, undeniably rhetorical: Is the pope Catholic?














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back to top34 Comments to “Is the pope Catholic?”
But of course the singleminded assumption that the abortion issue trumps all is what in part led to the recent conservative electoral debacle.
A hard position on abortion and assorted issues when the public clearly is not aligned with a hard position is a losing path both in maintaining political relevancy AND in reducing the number of abortions.
But keep it up: Obama seems to be intent on assembling a moderate consensus and the hard abortion approach nearly certainly guarentees that one is left on the side lines.
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“But of course the singleminded assumption that the abortion issue trumps all is what in part led to the recent conservative electoral debacle.”
I’m sure the sinlgemindedness or not has been trampled around here enough. However, I’m not sure what columns, speeches, news, etc your watching, but I didnt hear a wimper of discussion on abortion during this last campaign.
In fact I would counter argue that the Republican party suffered because McCain acted moderately and did not stand for any hardline issues.
Where would the world be without men like Wilberforce who made slave trade his primary issue? Would it be okay to stop somewhere in the middle? Where would we be without men like MLK Jr. who made civil rights his primary hardline issue? It takes men who are adamantly opposed to injustice to overcome it.
Being moderate about it doesnt work. Nor will it for abortion.
I know you argue this way Musing, because your smart enough to know that being moderate or pushing the abortion issue to the back row will never change it. Thats what liberals want.
“AND in reducing the number of abortions.”
Interesting comment. Why do you, personally, wish to reduce them? Are you admitting that it is wrong?
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Thornb post 2,
presumably then you were then not reading posts in WNMB. You also didn’t listen to Rick Warren after the Saddleback discussion.
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“If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.”
Marcus Aurelius
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re 3:
What part of that has to do directly with the McCain campaign? McCain was moderate is my point. He took your advice and laid low on hardline Repbulican issues, and the Republican party LOST.
So how will becoming “more moderate” change that next time?
I know its what you want, so the Republican side will continue to lose. But WNMB and Warren are relevant in that they actually give credit to my point. Conservatives want a strong conservative, not a moderate to lead.
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The issue of “life” is considered by many social conservatives to the most basic issue. If a candidate cannot get that one right, how can we trust him/her on other issues? As in the earlier reference to W. Wilberforce, winning this battle may take many, many decades, but it is one we dare not give up.
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Thorn post 5,
excellent effort at revisionist history.
So lets play the dance since it can go on and on.
Tell me what happened when McCain, our moderate McCain, proposed a pro-bortion vice presidential nominee?
Palin won the base but lost the center and hence the election.
Now if you persist in your revisionist history, we can then explore the explicit staements of McCain and Palin on abortion during the campaign.
And we can continue down this path nearly indefinitely.
In short your statement that abortion was not part of the campaign is simply not supported on the facts.
But I will be happy to dance with you step by step.
Your move!
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It is worth noting that the right basically had no where to go but McCain.
McCain, however, deparately needed the center.
In forcing a social conservative vice presidential candidate the right wing was playing for a minority coup, but instead actually lost the entire game.
And it is going to be very cold wandering in the wilderness.
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Paulr post 6,
indeed thank you for your demonstration of Thorn’s error in reading the historical record.
And of course this intransigence to consider what is meant by life leaves them as a fringe faction with apparently little role in the consensus which is being crafted.
Time is short, and it is not yet too late, but I have confidence in the social conservatives.
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The canard of “keeping abortion safe, legal and rare” was just that. The abortion industry doesnt want them to be rare, a final last-ditch resort. And all the SLR proAbort folks are never willing to say just why it is this grisly procedure should be “rarely” undertaken.
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sawgunner post 10,
I suggest that you need to demonstrate here that Obama does not in fact want abortion to be safe but rare.
NOw one wnats abortions: it basically indicates a failure of family planning efforts.
But when appropriate it needs to be available.
And until someone can show why a blastocyst of say 10 cells is philosophically different from a 10 cell collection of stem cells, I suggest the hard anti-abortion argument is a tough road to plow, with technology continuing to make it tougher.
Quite simply no one on this blog or as far as I now elsewhere has been able to demonstrate objectively why a 10 cell blaspotcyst is deserving of the full protections of humans after birth.
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Is Pastor Rick Evangelical? Will he wear the full armor of God when he steps up to the inaugural platform? Will he denounce bloody murder and invoke God’s judgment on every individual and nation that doesn’t repent? It’s a tough question. Having accused Americans of perpetrating a holocaust, Warren must wonder if he is about to bless the moral equivalent of the installation of Adolf Hitler as Chancellor of Germany.
On the other hand, can he truly look millions of rational and admirable people in the eye and say, “You bloody murderers. God d *** America!” He thinks he’s right, but he doesn’t want to sound like Wright, does he? We’ll see how certain he is.
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scoop moth post 12,
it is indeed an interesting situation.
I find this perhaps one of the potentially riskiest but potentially most aggressive actions Obama has taken yet.
As you note, Warren will be blessing an administration which argues for the rights of homosexuals to marry and for leagal, safe, but rare abortion.
The left wing is up in arms. I see, however, little potential loss for the left, but the social right is indeed entering an area of great risk, and Warren seems possibly to understand both the implications and the possiblities of this opportunity.
It will be fun to see his response. He will either attempt to build bridges, in which case he will be the spear head of the death of ideological social conservatives, or he will present a challenge, in which case he risks becoming moot.
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The claim that social issues cost the GOP the election is ridiculous. The amount of voters calling themselves “pro-life” in polls is roughly equal to those who call themselves “pro-choice”. But most voters base their votes on other issues (the economy, the environment, foreign policy). So if you have two pro-life candidates, first of all, those positions won’t alienate any more voters than two pro-choice Democratic candidates (like Obama and Biden) would; and second, voters will look at the candidates’ other positions anyway.
Also, I think that most of the voters that DO base their votes on abortion are pro-life.
McCain and Palin hardly campaigned on social issues, anyway. Palin made one speech on abortion, but it wasn’t all that divisive if I remember correctly; it didn’t have fiery rhetoric. “Joe the plumber”, wealth redistribution, taxes, Iraq, health care, energy, and celebrities were much bigger campaign themes.
So you have an unpopular president, an unpopular war, an economic crisis and an incumbent party beset by scandal. But because the incumbent party’s candidates took positions similar to half the nation’s (positions that it didn’t even campaign on much), it lost. Riiiight. That makes sense.
(Not!)
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In Re: 7 and 8
“proposed a pro-bortion vice presidential nominee?”
? You mean pro-life as in Palin? Or was there someone else your referring too that McCain didnt select?
“Palin won the base but lost the center and hence the election.”
I think its debateable that she personally lost the center. McCain lost the center. He tried to go toe to toe against Obama on a platform of what? CHANGE….and frankly McCain had no business. In other words, McCain ran his campaign like a Dem, but who is the better Dem? Obama for sure. The center moved to Obama like the Saints offense moves the ball against the Lions defense.
“In short your statement that abortion was not part of the campaign is simply not supported on the facts.”
Is being a part of enough? (I wasnt saying it wasnt “on the ticket”. Of course its tossed in, but is it highlighted and bolded? McCain certainly didnt champion this, or any other policy for that matter. He chose to attack Obama and call for “change”. After selecting Palin, his campaign tries to minimize her.
“In forcing a social conservative vice presidential candidate the right wing was playing for a minority coup, but instead actually lost the entire game.”
Or is it the only reason McCain avoided a landslide is because of Palin?
Without Palin, he gets no core base, and he still gets no centrists because he never stood for anything in opposition to Obama (bailout would have been a good choice). Nobody would have gone to the polls for him.
And it appears to me that many were still lost because of his moderatation, lack of a contrasting campaign, and the practical silencing of Palin.
But back to the main point, you cant be a better Republican party by turning yourself into Democrats. The notion is absurd. Compromising isnt worth it, if your destroying the core values in which your party stands for. Pro-life is one of those.
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Or is it the only reason McCain avoided a landslide is because of Palin?
365 to 173 isn’t a landslide? And an 8 million lead in the popular vote isn’t a landslide? The landslide occurred for two reasons — the Republicans lost the center and the Democratic Party and Obama were actually organized. New registrations and a 50 state policy paid off.
McCain was moderate is my point. He took your advice and laid low on hardline Repbulican issues, and the Republican party LOST.
Here Matt Y parodies the mass media driven myth that America is a center right country. Even when Obama posts an overwhelming win they still argued this bit. The Republicans lost because they were Republicans and Palin made this abundantly clear to the center making their move to Obama even easier.
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SAWGUNNER: And all the SLR proAbort folks are never willing to say just why it is this grisly procedure should be “rarely” undertaken.
It’s less efficient than planning. It’s sometimes forced by social misery against the preference of a woman who would rather have a baby. It drives harmful judicial and legislative activism by pro-lifers. It’s politically damaging to the Democratic Party in some regions. Saying abortion should be rare is enough to satisfy some voters, but telling them that would be insulting to their judgment.
Nevertheless, proAbort folks ain’t afraid to say abortion should not be criminalized.
Now, SAWGUNNER, pray. Why are pro-life people not willing to call women who have abortion bloody murderers? Why is contracting a professional killer to kill your fetus not the worst degree of murder? Why isn’t Pastor Rick gonna denounce Obama for infanticide when he invokes God at the inauguration? Why don’t pro-life people publish the punishments they seek to impose? Why don’t pro-life people inform America that people do not have a right to privacy?
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Matt Y post 14,
so yo0u mean that Palin diudn’t appeal to the base rather than than the independent middle?
Sure Matt, and I hyave a bridge to no where which was refused to sell you!
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Thorn post 15,
well lets see, Ridge and Liebermann were both considered and Romney was in the mix.
As I understand it Ridge and Liebermann are both pro-choice and the conservative wing fof the GOP seems to have gone a bit ballistic on the proposal.
Ridge in particular would have potentially supported the Pennsylvania strategy which McCain finally adopted.
Both would have appealed to centrists independents.
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Thorn post 18,
I suggest that rather than your suggestion:
“Or is it the only reason McCain avoided a landslide is because of Palin?”
Palin specfically contributed to McCain’s failure here. You certainly can’t argue that she ensured a McCain victory now can you?
The attempt to wrest control of the Republican party by the social conservatives via demands for the vice presidential candidate would appear in retrospect to have been a major strategic error.
I hope you enjoy the cold of the wilderness.
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17.
I dont know who your sources are, Scroop. Most folks whom I’ve talked to at Carenet are adamantly in the view that the pregnant woman is as much a victim as the fetus others are encouraging her to abort. Do we know, will we ever know how many gals DID NOT give consent to sex with the often older men who finance abortions?? A person involuntarily made love to is a victim.
I’m not clear if your post after my statemt about SLR Abortophiles was a response or not.
But I can say this. Gals who decide to carry their children to term should receive every type of assistance imaginable (prenatal care OBGYN visits) but first and foremost should be a social worker to do the scut work of adoption placemt. I’d suggest a voucher for birth control pills or even sterilization along with perhaps tuition assistance to get a real job.
I know in the 60s a common complaint was the full panoply of welfare bennies made child-bearing a “cash crop” and the assistance further contributed to the erosion of families or the complete non-formation of married families in the underclass.
In conclusion, I suspect lots of R proLifers are not at all ready to accept the increased role for the state if Roe is overturned but social mores about promiscuity/illegitimacy arent in place.
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HRW: False accusations? That wasn’t me.
Musing, what does 18 have to do with my post 14? My argument is that appealing to the base on abortion isn’t going to lose the bulk of independents, because they base their vote on other issues, and you have to convince them in those other areas. Now I do believe that making abortion the central theme of the campaign wouldn’t work. But as I said, it wasn’t.
Had McCain picked Ridge or Lieberman, he would have lost many pro-life single issue voters. I believe that group outnumbers pro-choice single-issue types, and furthermore, practically all of the latter stripe would have supported Obama anyway. IF Palin cost McCain votes, it was because of inexperience not ideology.
Can you show me a poll supporting your hypothesis that McCain lost more votes than he gained with Palin? Maybe something like this. Oops, that doesn’t support your case.
Asked if she was “a factor” in their vote, 60% said yes, while 33% said no. Yet of those who said Mrs. Palin was a factor, 56% voted for Mr. McCain, while 43% voted for Mr. Obama. Even among independent voters (a group Mr. McCain lost by eight points) she was a net vote-getter for the Republican ticket among those independents who said Mrs. Palin was a factor.
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Matt Y post 22,
my statement has been and continues to be that by forcing McCain to secure his base with Palin, McCain gave up the opportunity to appeal to the centrist independents with say Ridge or Liebermann.
You have not refuted that choosing Palin precluded choosing Ridge or Liebermann.
You have not refuted that the Republican base forced McCain to choose a social conservatvie for vice president.
If you are correct in your statement:
“Had McCain picked Ridge or Lieberman, he would have lost many pro-life single issue voters”
you indeed describe the starategic issue for the social conservatvies:
- if the social conservatvies insist that their cnadidates hew to their position they make it difficult to take necessary actions to appeal to the middle (you admit the Ridge/Palin choice)
- if the social conservatives abandon their candidates if they appeal to the independents, then they lose as well
I do sense this is a head I lose, tails you win situation for the social conservatives.
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Matt Y post 22,
I suggest your nominal poll data does not in fact show that Palin was a net drag or gain.
To properly gage this you would need a head to head poll of McCain/Palin vs Obama/Biden and McCain/Ridge (or Liebermann) vs Obama/Biden.
I do not believe we have such data.
The foillowing is perhaps interesting:
Rassmusen discussion
where it appears 57% of independents had an unfavorable opinion of Sarah Palin.
And since these were the key voters in this election it is the opinions of the independents which is of interest.
And observationally the McCain/Palin ticket failed and failed decisively among independents.
If the base would not stick with McCain if he had played to the center, then this merely confirms that the Republican base preferred to lose than to give McCain an even chance.
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Matt Y post 22,
but as my link points out and you seem to agree, the Republican base seemed to love Palin.
Since I suggest that the polls reagrding independents are reasonably clear and Democrats now out number Republicans, and Tina Fey needs additional material, it sounds like it would be truly wonderful if Palin was a major Republican presidential candidate in 2012.
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Sawgunner, you still haven’t explained why women who contract with a professional killer to kill their fetus aren’t murderers in the first degree. Rape is a defense. But financial incentives count as motive, not defense. Ditto reasons of the heart, convenience, desire to avoid genetic problems, and reluctance to go through with adoption. The mother who drove her two tots into a lake in order to free herself for a man whom she wanted had the same motives as some women who contract to kill their fetus by abortion, and Georgia tried to give her the dp. She was distressed, too, but the jury didn’t buy it.
Abortion doctors often kill a fetus for a reduced fee, at a loss, because they believe in providing a woman with a choice. That’s a defense against the accusation that all they want is money.
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Do you have a source for that last paragraph, Scroop Moth? I’ve not heard abortion clinics offer their services for reduced fees. On the contrary, what I’ve hard is it’s cash or credit card up front, first.
(A genuine question).
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Michelle post 27,
it does appear that some Planned Parenthood offices offer financial assitance:
Financial Assistance from Planned Parenthood
This does not sound like they are focused only on making money.
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The Pope isn’t in the politics business, he’s the head of the Roman Catholic Church and his duty is to God, not the American Constitution, by far a lesser standard, a document of compromise, nor does he say what he says because of the American electoral process. He says abortion is wrong. He says embryonic stem cell research is wrong. He takes his position that all life has value.
The document called the Constitution does not do that. What it says about life is that one can’t be deprived of it without due process. The Constitution is contingent on political will. God’s Word is not. The Pope has merely made that clear and it doesn’t sit well with people who want to be equal to the Eternal.
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NJLawyer post 29,
or perhaps with people who do not recognize the Pope’s theological authority?
But I am glad you made it clear that this was a Papal statement.
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NJLawyer post 29,
and for reference it would appear that perhaps 75% of the country does not recognize the Pope’s ecclesiastical authority.
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By contrast arguably 100% of those Americans not preaching revolution accept the political authority of the constitution.
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It is irrelevant whether or not anybody recognizes the Pope’s ecclesiastical authority. He’s not my pope, buthe’s doing what pope’s do in the manner in which they do it and have done for centuries.
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NJLawyer post 33,
but as you note, he is not my pope.
It is, however, my constitution.
And centuries ago the Pope was a temporal ruler with control over a significant portion of Italy. I don’t find that ancient tradition to be any more appropriate than his exercise of this ancient tradition.
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