Friendless men
Most men do not have close friends. It’s a fact. Many men are acquainted with other men but few of us, if we’re honest, have iron-sharpening relationships (Proverbs 27:17) or a deep camaraderie forged by walking together through life, wrestling with God and fighting the devil. Few of us can lament like David did in the loss of his friend saying, “I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women” (2 Samuel 1:26).
This is a larger cultural problem in America, as Devin Friedman recently wrote in GQ:
[I]t’s hard for men to make new friends, period, as life proceeds and one is no longer 23 years old and no longer has roommates named Jay and Sean and Josh. All new friends come prepackaged. All new friends are couple friends. MattAndChloe, SethAndSusan, ElizabethAndMichael. I can’t say exactly why. I have a theory that men get more bearlike as they age, increasingly taciturn, hairy, prone to long spells of slumber, prone to growly solitary rummaging. The man can get unsocialized as he ages.
And the married man can come to believe there’s a division of labor: The woman forms the social connections, and the man is treated in social situations as if he were just learning to feed himself solid food again after a terrible accident. That’s why the older the man gets, the more isolated he becomes, the more rarefied his world is, the more other humans seem to be accelerating away from him, the more his friendships become dominated by figures so long known that they’re more like comfortable marriages than friendships.
And for most men the church offers little help and socializes the problem. Churches with “men’s ministries” clearly signal that iron-sharpening-iron, pursuant relationships are not a part of men’s culture. Often those men’s gatherings are nothing more than activity-driven programs disconnected from cultivating vulnerability and life sharing.
Added to this is the idol of marriage, as John Piper describes, where young adults are wrongly led to believe that all of their emotional and spiritual needs can be met in their respective spouse instead of the holistic provisions of other relationships in the church that help us experience the provisions of the Triune God. This unrealistic expectation creates a fair amount of disappointment and disillusionment. Since marriage is temporary (Mark 12:25), says Piper, “relationships in Christ are more permanent, and more precious, than relationships in families.”
For men cloaked in idolatry, the mission of his life becomes “the woman” instead of the Kingdom.
Women overrelying on men to meet all of their relational needs is consistent with their curse, as Piper describes—with the constant cell phones calls, manipulating him to be at home with her, using sex or “sickness,” if necessary, and so on. Men overrelying on women begin to be forged in adolescence when women become places of validation, self-perception, and masculine identity that can lead to passivity or abuse. Or worse, men look to work for all of their significance, which feeds our curse.
One young man recently lamented this to me regarding his declining male friendships:
“My wife is not the type to establish social connections, but I am. A lot of times my friend has no idea if he can say yes to getting together and sometimes is stunned that he has to figure it out on his own. Sometimes I end up talking to my buddies’ wives to just arrange a get-together.
“Needless to say, a lot of times the friendship gets weakened because my buddy has been so used to going along with the social agenda set by the wife. It’s hard losing friends because their wife sets the social calendar.
“My situation now is that I’m only able to hang out with guys who are allowed to do stuff without their spouse. It’s funny and sad.”
So what happened? It seems that we have forgotten that friendships among men require regular proximity and activity. Male friendships rely more heavily on doing things together, accomplishing tasks, and overcoming challenges instead of meeting to talk and share “our hearts” over tea or encircled in a church basement. C.S. Lewis masterfully addresses male friendships forged in activity together in his book on the Four Loves.
Conversation is not the relational glue for men that it is for women. For most men, conversation flows out of regular activity (playing video games, watching sports, playing music, repairing a roof, fighting for social causes, and so on). The more men are disconnected from living life together, organically and dynamically, the more isolated they become and the fewer friends they have. We live in a world of post-college-aged, married and single men plugged into church programs, folding chairs, with great jobs, who may be great fathers, who are Biblically literate, who are theologically sharp, with fantastic lawns, with balanced checkbooks, in small groups, attending informational Bible studies, on softball teams, doing penance accountability groups, and who are completely friendless.
Most men, unsharpened and lacking deep camaraderie in life and Kingdom mission, function through the motions of life only to finish the race with no one poetically lamenting, “I grieve for you, my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.”

















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back to top58 Comments to “Friendless men”
So, short of arranging get-togethers and encouraging my husband to attend retreats and the men’s group on Saturday morning, what do you suggest I do? The guys–my husband and sons–will be sprawled out in front of football tomorrow and we’ll slide food their way, but beyond that and prayer, I’m not sure how I can help.
I find it interesting that his college roommates are now MY friends on facebook, and one in particular phones and reaches out to him after all these years–but that friend is now divorced and lonely in his own right.
My husband’s best relationships were formed with the men at church–two different churches–when men in his prayer group/Bible study reached out to him during a difficult time. He misses those men even now, and longs for a church setting with like-minded male believers. Here, he’s the leader and doesn’t have many spiritual peers.
I wish he had a couple close male friends. He does, too. We’re having dinner with a good candidate on Friday night. We’ll see what God does.
And Anthony, if you still have that young man in your household, you’re helping . . . everyone.
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A timely topic. In the early 80s went to what was then a 100% commuter university. I’d hastily leave campus to rush off to a part time job. Cant say I formed any real lasting collegiate friendships back then since most were in the same boat as me. I never realized my social ineptitude/poverty for forming new friendships. I’m still making up for lost ground in that dept, to be honest.
For me the years I spent in the army were beneficial in that regard. Men I met in the late 80s have remained somewhat connected (though most of the effort at the friendship has been my own) and I think the sense of having been through the same “male bonding” experiences [basic and later airborne training, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait during "Desert Storm"] have helped out a great deal.
With so much fluidity and vocational mobility these days, I think not too many guys have a cohort they can turn to and say “Hey remember back when..?”
This whole discussion recalls a fascinating though criticized sociology treatise from years gone by called “Bowling Alone”.
Any of yall participate in a bowling league?
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For Christian singles who marry, that vast Grand Canyon which divides the marrieds from the non-marrieds is too often unsurmountable. And do we want new husbands to stay attached to the single guys they used to hang with? Really??
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I think there is much wisdom on this topic to be found in “Why Men Hate Going to Church” along with “Bowling Alone” and of course “Wild at Heart”
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“Often those men’s gatherings are nothing more than activity-driven programs disconnected from cultivating vulnerability and life sharing.”
When I read that line I immediately thought “Men hate to sit down and to cultivate vulnerability and life sharing” (Whatever that means exactly). That, for men, grows out of conversations while climbing mountains, fixing cars, surfing. I thought of Lewis’ Four Loves. Then I read, “Male friendships rely more heavily on doing things together, accomplishing tasks, and overcoming challenges instead of meeting to talk and share “our hearts” over tea or encircled in a church basement. C.S. Lewis masterfully addresses male friendships forged in activity together in his book on the Four Loves.”
So why are we blaming the church for having “activity-driven” things for men? Methinks this went online without an editor.
Finding a friend is as difficult as finding a spouse if you make that the focus. My husband has three very good close friends. All were forged through common interests and maintained by persuing those interests. They are “vulnerable” and “life sharing” often, but organically.
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I disagree with the premise. I have three very close male friends, one of whom I’ve known and been close to for almost 30 years. I don’t really buy the idea that I’m an exception.
I also have several close female friends, in addition to my significant other who is, as is always the ideal, my very best friend.
It may be that some men are less adept at making friends than others, but I really don’t think it’s most. One complicating factor might be the definition, though. Bradley seems to believe that men who get together for shared activities have a somehow less authentic friendship than women who meet “to talk and share ‘[their]hearts’ over tea or encircled in a church basement.”
And I reject that on two counts. First, I think many men DO talk in that kind of heart-sharing way, even if it’s less visible than for women. (It might be a conversation that takes place during the shared activity rather than over tea, although even at that men do sometimes just sit and talk.) Secondly, isn’t judging the validity of male friendship by the standard of a female one just another way our culture seeks to feminize men?
Male friendships may be different than women’s in the way they manifest and are expressed, but that does not make them any less authentic.
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Amen, SteveG, Amen!
A young married woman came to me troubled about her husband. I asked her, “If you and I went to a baseball game and sat through the whole thing with only the occasional comment to the each other about the pitching, how would you feel?” She said, “Like you were mad at me.” So I broke her in on the secret, “Our husbands could do that and think they had the best time ever.” Men communicate beyond words so much more than women. The best thing a wife can do for her marriage is to have good girlfriends and to give hubby his guy time–however he defines that.
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I thought that all of the mega-church, seeker-sensitive, emergent church programs, counseling ministries, starbucks, AA meetings, cry-ins, sensitivity seminars, inner-child conferences, soup kitchens, progressive brunches, men’s teas, advances, retreats and breakfasts etc were taking care of this type of thing.
All the men I know who attend these types of places have plenty of buddies. And they’re happy!!!
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I can’t believe on the last day of the year I’m going to agree with SteveG, but here goes.
I’ve known men who had friends and men who did not. But I’ve also known women who had friends and women who did not. I think there are people of both sexes who have difficulty making friends and bonding. Women may be more likely to share their emotions than men, but isn’t that because men think differently than women? Aren’t women more intuitive? My father had friendships with his army buddies from WWII that lasted a lifetime and he was always hanging out with several of the neighborhood men talking politics and gardens, etc., sometimes with them more than with his brother who lived up the street. I know quite a few men in church who have lifelong friends and treat each other like brothers. I’ve seen male lawyers have great friendships, and I think to some degree better friendships than women lawyers who are very competitive. Last year I worked with a woman lawyer who didn’t like the fact that I made friends with other women in the bank. I guess she thought we’d bond exclusively because we were lawyers. She actually told me I was too friendly. She rarely went out to lunch with anyone (because she couldn’t lower herself to eat with the rest of us) and she received few phone calls from friends. Was her life so different than the other women that she couldn’t find something in common to talk about? It’s not as if non-lawyers don’t read books or make recipes or watch the news, etc.
So, I agree with SteveG that male friendships may be different, but I think there are people who can’t maintain friendships in both genders, whether it’s because they’re shy, snobby or didn’t develop social skills in the first place. And while I agree with Sawgunner that it might not be helpful to have newly married men hanging out with single guys, it is also true that relationships change when women get married, too, though it may be easier for a husband to let his wife go shopping with a single girlfriend. It would never occur to me to keep a man from going to a ballgame with a buddy. Drinking, yes, but not a ballgame.
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My closest friends are friends for life. Even if I rarely see them (sometimes for years), it is as if no time has past. I can tell them absolutely anything, even a few things I won’t tell my wife.
SteveG is right. Male relationships are different than female.
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I think some of this may be cultural. In Suburbia, where I live, things are setup for isolation. You drive directly from your house to your job, where you sit in your cubicle. You stop by the grocery store on the way home, and go through self checkout. Then you order a pay per view movie with your remote, and go to bed. Maybe you post on a website where the interaction will be limited to posting on the web.
Plus, our culture is always changing — I mean, we measure significant cultural periods by ten-year decades. We talk about differences in the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s the way another people might talk about centuries. This may lead to confusion and wide variation in what people expect in regard to relating, and what they feel comfortable with. I’m just making this up, but I picture a Cuban town in which the men all go down to some place every Friday night, play checkers, and talk. You don’t have to think about if that’s what you should do. You don’t have to choose it from among 500 other things you can do on Friday night. In our culture you can call up an acquaintance and say “want to go to a game?” They are caught a little off guard, but say yes. You both have a good time. Then if you don’t ask again, that may be the last thing you ever do together. So you wonder “Is that weird? Are guys supposed to go to games together? Are we supposed to have a stronger personal connection before we do that? Etc.” God determines the time and place everyone should live, so I am not asking to live in another time or place. But I think this may be a dynamic in our culture.
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Michelle, great questions. I think part of the myth is that participation in church programs (or any organized programs for that matter) is the context is which this happens. You may be powerless to fix this because it’s such a huge problem in our culture in general. Have your husband read A Fine Young Man by Michael Gurian and John Eldredge’s Way of the Wild Heart for ideas. There’s such a difference between being a room together and actually connecting with people.
Also, “Caleb” is doing well. He had a job interview today and is temporarily back in Michigan hoping to marry the mother of his daughter. The Lord has done much there!
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Sawgunner said, “I never realized my social ineptitude/poverty for forming new friendships. I’m still making up for lost ground in that dept, to be honest.”
Bro, I think this is true for lots of guys. GREAT point.
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Sawgunner, good book recommendations. The Why Men Hate Going to Church does a great job of explain these realities.
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Adios, for many churches the perception is that men are connecting because they are engaged in church programming. The churches I’ve doing ministry in over the years, this is simply not necessarily case. Church programs are sometimes the work places for men to feel free to be themselves.
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Could some of this be financially driven, too? How many married men with children can afford to go to a game regularly, or bowl on a league, or golf, or do whatever hobbies guys do together? (Esp if the mom stays home with the kids…)
I know in our family, affording these types of activities would require him to work even more, or for us to somehow cut back somewhere else.
What activities can guys do together for this bonding that isn’t an expensive hobby?
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Another area where I think we often overlook the possibility for friendships are the various meetup dotorg groups organized around like-minded interests. I could never “suit up” and be on the field with the others, but I’ve always been curious about those guys so involved with Civil War re-enactments. And I’d love to tag along with a good carpenter/brick mason on a Habitat project.
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#16 I think it might be harder for men like me who are the fathers of no young men. You are quite right though. The finances are such for lotsa folks that activities unrelated to the job or family time might be viewed as a luxury.
Though not by me
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STEVEG, great point about women and men being differnt. But, sorry, I’ve worked in too many churches, led to many men’s retreats over the years, have taught this is too many classes to believe otherwise across the country. You actually are the minority if what you say about yourself is true. In retreat contexts, I know of men who have known each other for “30 years” but were not “sharpening” each other, etc.
Your personal experience does not normalize what’s true for most men. Because there are exceptions I chose the word “most” instead of “all” because there are always exceptions that assume that their personal experience might be normal when, in fact, as is your case, some men’s experience is not the norm.
I regularly speak around the country on this issue and friendlessness is norm. In the church, we tend to program the unhealthy parts of our lives that we do not do organically.
About your objections, the first you said, “First, I think many men DO talk in that kind of heart-sharing way, even if it’s less visible than for women. (It might be a conversation that takes place during the shared activity rather than over tea, although even at that men do sometimes just sit and talk.)”
But didn’t I say this in what I wrote originally, “Conversation is not the relational glue for men that it is for women. For most men, conversation flows out of regular activity (playing video games, watching sports, playing music, repairing a roof, fighting for social causes, and so on). The more men are disconnected from living life together, organically and dynamically, the more isolated they become and the fewer friends they have.”
What are you objecting to exactly?
About the second objection: “Secondly, isn’t judging the validity of male friendship by the standard of a female one just another way our culture seeks to feminize men?”
Why is having vulnerable conversation or struggling life-on-life together through the good, the bad, and ugly necessarily feminine? I don’t think what James is encouraging in 5:16 is feminine, for example.
Describe the relationships you have with your friends and ask the men in your neighborhood, job, church, etc. if they have the same and you’ll find that yours is not the norm. If it were normative in the church, you wouldn’t need programs to “bring men together.”
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I used to love going on a men for missions program. A bunch of guys with power tools would go fix churches. The camaraderie was wonderful.
I tend to avoid men’s retreats now, because the all seem to be about confession, crying and hugging. I prefer building stuff with power tools.
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EATON said, “I think some of this may be cultural. In Suburbia, where I live, things are setup for isolation.”
GREAT POINT!! Your Cuban example is a good one. The type of isolation we live in requires more effort in this area for sure.
The cultural point is a very, very sound one!! The Bowling Alone book hits on this reality in our culture.
Of course, it’s also true that we have such a low view of what friends are that many people a living in a bit of self-deception that what they have on the surface with lots of people actually has any real depth.
At any rate, great point!
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20 – Amen.
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Watching football is cheap, My husband best football buddy lives in another state and still after every Auburn game one will call the other and they will discuss when they will fire the coach. He has another buddy who also became a father late in life. They grew up together and they talk about hometown gossip and about how the kids are trying to kill them. As a matter of fact my husband is better at making a keeping friends then I am.
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Xion,
My husband would agree with you, he enjoys projects which help others – he also meets with a group of Christian business men on a regular basis for lunch, they pray for one another and whatever needs they have.
My husband has a few business friends who go fishing, hunting, etc all the time – they and their wives are not that close-
Men who are close with their wives are naturally finding ways to enjoy the company of one another, rather than seeking friendship with other men, or in my case other women.
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24 – Sounds like a very godly man. That’s the way my man is too. It’s a pleasure to be able to tell someone, please don’t spend a bunch of money getting that fixed. My husband can fix it. Wanna make friends? Save them five hundred bucks.
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My husband works a 12-hr. day, usually. As a homeowner, there are always projects & such that need to be done on his days off. He doesn’t have time to hang out with a friend. He barely has time to hang out with me.
But when we attend a church fellowship dinner, he always has a good conversation with one or more of the men. And often, I’m the one who’s ready to leave, waiting for him to finish up his conversation.
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Friendships between men in my church are strong. I don’t know if this has much to do with it, but their favorite activities (in no particular order) are pig-roasting, paintball, fantasy football, and the Tuesday-night Bible study.
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Bianca, Karen and OP
I enjoyed all your comments –
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Anthony Bradley said: About your objections, the first you said, “First, I think many men DO talk in that kind of heart-sharing way, even if it’s less visible than for women. (It might be a conversation that takes place during the shared activity rather than over tea, although even at that men do sometimes just sit and talk.)”
But didn’t I say this in what I wrote originally, “Conversation is not the relational glue for men that it is for women. For most men, conversation flows out of regular activity (playing video games, watching sports, playing music, repairing a roof, fighting for social causes, and so on). The more men are disconnected from living life together, organically and dynamically, the more isolated they become and the fewer friends they have.”
I took your meaning to be that they talk about the activity, rather than about their thoughts, feelings, fears, etc. And very often that’s true. But I think we also often do talk about those deeper things, whether it’s through the activity or at another time.
I do agree that men in general are probably more emotionally reticent than women. I am not sure that’s a problem so much as it just an example of the way the sexes are different.
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27 – Same at our assembly, Teen. I don’t understand where all of these men in crisis are coming from. All the men I’ve known in churches I’ve been to all over the country are as happy as larks.
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Bianca – 30
Agreed – something is off key here, all the complaints of no-friends – I’ve known a lot of people both Christian and none-Christian, the men had friends.
The same sort of thread was started not two weeks ago by Bradley.
Do men hurt?
http://online.worldmag.com/2008/12/10/do-men-hurt/
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Maybe farm boys are less reserved.
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Maybe they’re just happy to get off the farm for a little while?
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Ok, I have a question now. Bianca, Victoria, Opinionated Teen, and SteveG seem to be saying that they find it normal for men to have lots of friends. Whereas Mr. Bradley, Michelle, Sawgunner, and myself are apparently saying that men don’t usually have many (if any) good friends.
Rather than accusing Mr. Bradley of being a whiner, maybe we should check and see if there are any factors that separate the two categories of experience here.
I live in a mid-sized city, it a neighborhood where we don’t know any of the neighbors.
My church has maybe 200 people, probably a little less. It’s conservative in pretty much every aspect.
I’m still college aged, and most of the people my age I know are in college, and I think at least half of the older men I know went to college.
Like I said, I’m still college aged. Most of my friends my age seem to have good friends, but I don’t know if they keep up with them after they graduate. But I don’t know hardly any other men. At least half of the people at my church are probably over 60, and I only know a few middle aged guys and one old guy. There’s another old guy everyone else seems to like, but he kind of rubs me the wrong way. I don’t think any of the middle-aged guys have very good friends, though I think the seniors might. It’s hard to tell, since everybody either leaves as soon as church is over or just talks to the people they already know, usually as couples.
I’d consider a close friendship to be one where the first thing you ask when you meet isn’t “Hey, what’ve you been up to lately?” or “How was your week”, but something more along the lines of “Say, what’d you think of the game the other day?” And generally a close friendship would have at least one instance in its history where the two friends talked about their problems and helped each other out at some point, and also do stuff together every once in a while.
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It’s been my observation that the guys I know who are out of college don’t seem to have any good friends. Just people they know.
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Oh, and happy new year!
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#26 Karen O – “My husband works a 12-hr. day, usually. As a homeowner, there are always projects & such that need to be done on his days off.”
Sounds like he needs some friends to come over and help!
In our little neighborhood, we’re always helping each other do something.
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#35 Cuthalion “It’s been my observation that the guys I know who are out of college don’t seem to have any good friends. Just people they know. “
The thing is that I don’t need many friends. If my friends are around it’s nice. If they aren’t I’m fine. Same goes for presents on my birthday or Christmas. I really don’t need them.
I don’t view this as a problem. To me it’s an asset.
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Xion, that sounds ideal!
My husband is very friendly, but he is very work-oriented, and so is his dad, who is our closest neighbor. (Two peas in a pod, really.)
I really wish for both of them that they had guy friends to do all these projects WITH! But everyone seems to have a tight schedule, so coordinating such times is a nightmare.
I think they’re just TOO busy. They work hard, and when not working, their favorite pasttime is studying (nerdy, but true!). I just don’t see guys out working on things.
Xion, do you all just wander over and pitch in, or do you coordinate?
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At the nearby Home Depot they regularly offer DIY classes for masonry, electrical wiring etc. No, i’ve not attended any. I have wanted to many many times but it hasnt been possible. I think that might be a great place to initially meet and interact with folks (men or women) and perhaps if you “click” with someone a friendship might develop.
How many of you reading this have ever switched churches? A friend of ours and her husband moved to another church cuz the hub couldnt make any friends. True he was a Canadian immigrant working in the electronics industry in Austin Tx and his “Canadian-ness” only exacerbated his general status as an “odd duck” type fellow.
I recall the church Men’s Ministry pastor hatched up a retreat. I procrastinated and was one of the last to sign up for it and though I had hoped to carpool I was on my own. The pastor looked on a list and confided that there was one other guy who still lacked a ride. It was the Canadian.
The long and short of it was he was unable to get there on time and after waiting for him (on the opposite side of the church from where he was) I drove to the retreat for the obligatory church-sponsored “mandatory fun”. I later learned that his wife had been insistent that he go on the retreat and his failure to get there had caused an argumt. Cant help but think he declined future retreats (but in all fairness he moved back to Canada and does lotsa things with his father)
My experience with retreats is any type of top-down initiated mandatory anything will not work well– if it works at all. The men I spoke with in our pod group remained strangers; instant friendship just dont work. To this day the best I can do is Facebook with one of the guys’ wives. (Seems to me more gals are into FB’ing than men are) There were men at that church who formed good friendships and in fact went on to serve as ea others groomsmen or best man. Those mainly arose from being roommates with other guys. With married men who lack any type of commonalities, there is much more caution.
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What about the people who didn’t go to or finish college? Are they dead meat? chopped liver?
Is college the be all and end all?
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#38 XION
I think for many folks friendlessness is a huge problem. For others, not so much. All the sociopathic gunmen loners (Oswald, Bremer, the Virginia Tech kid) lacked friends but I dont think friendlessness can equate to asocial behavior.
The cliche I often hear is that wives wish their husbands had more friends. But male friendship formation presumably is a different thing from what the gals do.
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I asked my husband what he thinks about this topic. He says that even though he gets along well with the men at church (& he happens to be a friendly, personable guy anyway), he doesn’t really have a “close” friend other than me. And he’s okay with that.
He also thinks most men don’t have close friendships, but a lot of men have “buddies”.
Xion -
Yeah, maybe the 87-yr. old lady across the street can help.
The problem is that he works a different schedule from most men. He leaves around 3:30 in the morning, then gets home usually around 5:00 in the evening. He goes to bed when most people are starting their evening.
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#39 MomOf5 “Xion, do you all just wander over and pitch in, or do you coordinate? “
The thing about guys, is we are attracted to noise. (That’s why I am married and have kids!
But seriously, whenever I hear something out of the ordinary, like a saw or engine or air gun, etc. we all go over to see what cool new man-toy our neighbor is using. If he needs help we help. If not, then we just give advice.
Confession time: One drastic thing changed in my life and ended up changing our whole neighborhood. For years I was a strict fundamentalist teetotaling deacon choir member men’s quartet singing Bible thumper. All of our spare time was at church doing church things with church people. So my relationship to my neighbors was always arms length except to “get them SAVED!”. It was downright obnoxious. It is a foul stench to me now to think back on it. I think God thought the same thing. (Isaiah 65:5).
Then I taught a series on the book of Galatians and finally understood Grace (after 20 years of missing it). Next I taught through the book of John and we observed how Christ was not like any Christians we knew. He was a friend of “sinners” and genuinely liked them just as they were. His friends were the dregs of society. He went to their houses and even had a little wine with them (Luke 7:33,34) and spent quality time with them and loved them.
This changed my life. My love for my neighbors is now unfeigned and genuine. I have no ulterior motives. And curiously, they now ask me about my faith. We have had some fairly deep discussions about God since I became a normal human again. I’ve loaned one neighbor books by Josh McDowell and CS Lewis. They actually like talking about God.
Here is one example of how we get together. Occasionally if we are all mowing our yards together I’ll say come over and have a beer when you are done. We rarely have more than one or two. They all drive their lawn mowers over and we have what looks like a mini tractor convention. We have good discussions and genuinely like each other. Since I have stop being such a Pharisee our neighborhood has come alive! Now we help each other all the time. Last night one neighbor made a wonderful fish dinner for us all.
My very deep close friends tend to be those who have the same theology I do. After my Grace Awakening, that number has become much smaller. But there are a handful who had the same awakening and who I consider deep soul mates. If I don’t see one for years our love for each other hasn’t lessened at all. It reminds me of what David said about Jonathan (2 Sam 1:26).
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My situation is unique and more anecdotal than Anthony’s general point.
Him: conservative, Republican, Christian, married, straight, loud, opinionated, constant complainer, pessimistic, and sometimes a real…jerk (since I can’t say the other word). He’s a stay at home and watch TV kind of guy. He’s always complaining about how things used to be. He’s got some racist and sexist thinking and sees nothing wrong with it.
Me: liberal, Democrat (Socialist really), non-Christian, single, gay, quiet, reserved, mostly optimistic, and unfailingly polite. I don’t like to sit at home and watch TV. I don’t complain about how things used to be and don’t mind things changing. I work against racist and sexist thinking.
Yet we’ve been best buds for years. We met when I was hired as his replacement at another company. Now we both work at the same company and have been going to lunch every day for the last 11 years. We have season tickets to professional baseball and are both diehard football fanatics. We do a lot of sports watching together, but we also do a lot of other stuff. He fixes my plumbing when it breaks and I take care of ordering tickets and keeping up with them (he loses things all the time). We jibber-jabber like a couple of old ladies at the ball park.
Truth be told, I probably know him better than his wife, including all the gory and embarrassing details. For example, I know that he has doubts about the truth of Christianity, though he’s a very faithful Christian, active in church, and even prays over every meal without fail. His wife would have heart failure if she knew that.
We’ve had our arguments and disagreements – even got into a fist fight once. It’s been an interesting friendship. I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
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Anlir
YOU WRITE: “Yet we’ve been best buds for years. We met when I was hired as his replacement at another company. Now we both work at the same company and have been going to lunch every day for the last 11 years.”
Isn’t this the same guy who left your place of employment? – you told the same story about “going to lunch every day” with a guy you worked with but then you were so sorry to see him leave, as you would miss him eating with you daily – this was a few months ago as I remember, you mentioned how you would not have anyone to lunch with anymore – now you tell the story as if he still works there “and have been going to lunch every day for the last 11 years.” – maybe you can explain this?
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Happy to explain Victoria:
Your recollection is faulty.
I blogged back in November about my boss leaving the firm and taking a new job. My boss is in Baton Rouge, and when I’m down there I do go to lunch with him every day. And we do have a personal friendship outside the office (he’s in my “tribe”). But my home, my job, and my life is in Atlanta.
Two different people, two different situations.
Do try to keep up dear.
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Anlir
I only asked for an explanation – your snarky answer is very revealing as in “And we do have a personal friendship outside the office (he’s in my “tribe”). But my home, my job, and my life is in Atlanta.”
Yes many of us do “keep up” – LOL
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How many of you reading this have ever switched churches? A friend of ours and her husband moved to another church cuz the hub couldnt make any friends.
A few years back we actually moved to a different city because (as I understand it, anyway) my parents didn’t have many friends at our church. While looking for a new one, they found out about a new plant, so we moved about 45 minutes away to join that. We stayed (and helped a little) for their first year before leaving again over, I’m pretty sure, not having many friends once again. Everyone was younger than we were. Their kids were younger than us kids, and they themselves were mostly military and young marrieds. So we switched churches again, and now we’re younger than almost everybody else. But I’m glad we did, because I’ve met some really great people. Sadly, no really close friends.
What about the people who didn’t go to or finish college? Are they dead meat? chopped liver?
Is college the be all and end all?
If you’re talking about my question, sorry… I didn’t mean it that way; I was just wondering if it made a difference in how many or how close friends guys tended to make. I was trying to think of possible factors, not implying that you have to get eddicated to make friends.
I only asked for an explanation – your snarky answer is very revealing as in “And we do have a personal friendship outside the office (he’s in my “tribe”). But my home, my job, and my life is in Atlanta.”
I think you may be crossing a line, Victoria. If not a blog-rules one, a moral one. Hopefully I misunderstand what you mean though.
We’ve had our arguments and disagreements – even got into a fist fight once. It’s been an interesting friendship. I wouldn’t trade it for anything.
That’s awesome, Anlir! Reminds me of a good friend I had back in grade school. We’d always fight (mostly verbally), and then promptly arrange the next get-together. I still talk to him every once in a while, but since I moved away, I’ve only seen him a couple times. Our friendship still feels strong though.
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Cuthalion – 49
What is crossing the line with:
YOU WRITE:
“I think you may be crossing a line, Victoria. If not a blog-rules one, a moral one. Hopefully I misunderstand what you mean though.”
I didn’t write: “And we do have a personal friendship outside the office (he’s in my “tribe”). But my home, my job, and my life is in Atlanta.”
Where is the line crossed Cuthalion?
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Yes, where was the line crossed? In addition, that snarky “dear” of Anlir’s to Victoria is hardly “unfailingly polite.”
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Another put down of men? Or another proof of the ineffective nature of the church as we know it? Perhaps the answer is in reorganizing our religious groups into smaller units where all may participate. Perhaps there would not be as much of a perceived need for men to have special activities together.
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Anlir, the fact that you think he is a sexist, racist, whining jerk and he is still friends with you says a lot about him. Sounds like a very patient, forgiving guy.
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Anlir, the fact that you think he is a sexist, racist, whining jerk and he is still friends with you says a lot about him. Sounds like a very patient, forgiving guy.
It says that people are nicer on the internet than off. ^_^ …then again, he did sort of say that, didn’t he…
…
Regarding the crossing of lines…
When I first read it, it seemed you were launching into a personal attack on Anlir just for answering your question, rather than just admitting you were wrong. Namely, it seemed like you were implying Anlir has some kind of inappropriate relationship with this guy.
Maybe not, but that’s what it looked like, and for some reason it struck me as particularly vicious and uncalled for. Coming back today, it doesn’t look as bad; just dumb, random, and off-topic.
I also don’t get the point of your refutation. So he wrote, “And we do have a personal friendship outside the office (he’s in my “tribe”). But my home, my job, and my life is in Atlanta.” So what? You imply that his writing that crossed a line. I don’t see it.
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I meant “nicer off the internet than on”. Whoops.
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#52 NJLawyer
“… that snarky “dear” of Anlir’s to Victoria is hardly “unfailingly polite.””
I am sorry to disagree, Anlir says he is Gay. As Homer Simpson would say, “Some people talk like that.”
I realize that is not PC to talk like that, but I am a CCR. In this case, seeing humor where others can take offense is normal for me.
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Not quite what I was saying, Cuthalion. I’m saying that maybe men become stronger friends doing testosterone-related things. You can’t expect all men to enjoy woman things.
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If men want friends, they need to be friends.
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