I’ve written extensively on this subject, and have also recorded a song about the state of so many churches called “Nice Little Church”.

http://www.songsofjesus.com/nice_little_church_indepth.htm

God’s word is plain enough, “”For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.” 2 Corinthians 4:5

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Mike, you gave, 1 Cor. 9:14 Please read this in context with the whole chapter. The first part is Paul’s lengthy justification for a paid to preach system. He uses the OT, logic, nature, etc to prove the right. Then he ends his point by declaring the right to be paid should be refused in view of even all these reasons. Paul was suicidal about this issue. He would rather die than get paid by the people he is equipping. He also suggests that if he is paid to preach, his reward will not be the one he really wants. Look it up, read the whole thing, and you’ll see it.

Consider Acts 20:17 – and see what Paul said to the Ephesian pastors/elders about “meeting his own needs” while he taught them. Observe that here is were he quotes Jesus as saying “It is more blessed to give than receive”. There is a greater blessing from God when we give the gospel and not receive back money. That is giving and receiving.

Consider 2 Thes. 3 where Paul tells them his example in refusing the right to be paid was specifically an example for them to follow.

Consider that there are no examples in the NT of anyone being paid by the people he is serving. In Philippians Paul thanks them for supporting him when he was with the Thessalonians. Then he tells them to stop the giving because he his needs are met.

If you consider what commentaries might say about these things, they will either say nothing at all or say something like “Paul only meant this for himself.” This kind of interpretive dynamic is completely bogus. The scriptures about the “right to be paid” must be interpreted in light of the greater blessing and reward Paul teaches comes with “refusing the right to be paid”. The right is still there. The refusal is greater. Which do you want – the lesser or the greater? Which should your pastor want if he is a “leader”?

Consider applying your “right to be paid” assumptions to cultures where they do not have the money to pay a preacher to give them a weekly Bible lecture. I was born and raised in the Philippines where this is still true. In most places they must devote 100% of their giving to buy the clergy package. How now can they obey Christ’s specific commands to serve the poor and send missionaries to reach all nations?

Am I really wrong in asserting this is God’s desire for His church?
Yes, I am against the institutionalized faith. When examined with the scriptures is shown to be very selfish – a church of you. Don’t allow 12-15% giving to distract you from seeing the tragedy of 75 – 85% pooling and calling it all giving.

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Nicely said Rich Wheeler. What I am decrying is the merit system as a way of finding favor with God.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:6

Once this is clear, that we already have God’s favor because of the grace of Jesus Christ, then we are to move on to do good works.

You see, one follows the other. And there is no temptation to pretend we are better than those sinners over there, since we are all sinners before God.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:8-10

We have no grounds for boasting. Good works are what is expected of us now, but it makes us no more holy than a criminal or prostitute. We are to go on and bear good fruit, but it is a result of Christ’s work in us, not our own righteousness.

Your point is well taken though. Am I guilty of the same self-righteousness I accuse Pharisees of? Perhaps. Though Christ accused them of these same things. His criticism while he walked on earth was of the religious. His criticism after his death was of the churches.

I think Christians would do well and take a lesson from Christ: criticizing ourselves, i.e. the sinners over here, rather than the sinners over there. We get all bent out of shape about sin in this world and ignore it in our own hearts. I am looking in a mirror here.

The Church of YOU becomes the Church of US meaning “We do God right!” The tendency is to look down on the world outside our doors and other churches.

And yet, even so, we are to gather together. We are to strive for an unfeigned love of the brethren. We are to strive for unity of the faith. But it sure would be easier though without all these people!

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By asking myself such a question, I learned something important from Xion. Yes, I easily slip into wrong attitudes about my long list of dos and don’ts. (Note to self: Add “Reject long lists of dos and don’ts” to my long list of dos and don’ts.)

Yet, it remains that those lists stem from what God reveals about human un-holiness. For example, if fornication destroys holiness, then doesn’t public attire that provokes sexual desire also erode holiness? In place of God’s Word or centuries of application of God’s commandments, I arbitrate right and wrong. So, if I burn my list of such dos and don’ts, how shall I emulate my holy Father?

You say you are saved by grace; but how will you prove it to me? How will you prove it to the lost person who just waits to spring the label of hypocriteupon you? How will you reassure yourself that it was a heart decision and not just an intellectual exercise?

The opposite of Phariseeism, toward which Xion leans in his criticism, easily leads to the fall of many. Xion should make the point, then, not that lists of dos and don’ts are “wrong;” but rather that the dos and don’ts form the vocabulary of love notes to God, written not in lip service, but in deeds.

Even people in the Church of Others can unwittingly attend the Church of You when service becomes a foundation for self-righteousness. Any strength and any pet peeve can tempt us to join the Church of You.

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Occasionally it seems Calvin has been poked at for seeing God as knowable. I’m not sure why that would be present a problem. God is only knowable insofar as he reveals Himself to us and this is generally by accomodation to our puny minds. Calvin never rejected the idea of the incomprehensibility of God due to His infinity. God is both transcendent and immanent.

Mike

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#12- Yeah- “Taking an “intellectual” approach to the Scriptures doesn’t necessarily insulate you from making church about you. It certainly makes it harder to do so . . . .” Can’t say I agree with you at all about that. Taking an “intellectual” approach to the Scriptures lands you right with the intellect, and not God, front-and-center in the podium.

Calvin and others may have started the church of the Intellect, but it’s the thinking person’s own intellect that’s front-and-center, even when it’s the “pastor” in the podium giving that intellect a mental massage.

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The narrow way of actually glorifying God the Father and HIS works above our own is traveled by few.

It is possible to stray to the left and do whatever you want ignoring God. But what few people understand is that it is also possible to stray to the right, as the Pharisees did, exalting their own righteousness over that of Christ. They celebrate their own works and traditions and operate on a system of merit, not knowing that their own righteousness is as filthy rags.

Pharisaical Christians ignore the grace of Jesus Christ. They don’t know that we are accepted by God not because of anything we do, but by what Christ has done. God favors us because of the work of his Son. We are no better than anyone else.

And so, Pharisaical Christians thinking they are holier than everyone else look down on sinners and other Christians who don’t measure up to their own standards. These hypocrites don’t even meet their own standards, but point the bony finger of accusation against others.

These people also worship at the Church of You, sanctification being all about them and their own holiness, not the holiness of Christ.

Your ears will hear a word behind you, “This is the way, walk in it,” whenever you turn to the right or to the left. Isaiah 30:21

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Pastors make so much money that there are literally hundreds of thousands beating down the door to collect.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.”

1 Corinthians 9:14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

Mike

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