Domestic violence: Is it grounds for divorce?
A pastor at Saddleback Church in California is creating waves after he made comments on the church’s website stating that domestic violence in a marriage is not biblical grounds for divorce. According to Tom Holladay, who is a teaching pastor at the megachurch founded by Rick Warren, the Bible only addresses two scenarios where divorce is acceptable: abandonment and a physical affair.
“I wish there were a third in Scripture having been involved as a pastor with situations of abuse,” Holladay said in an audio clip posted on Saddleback Church’s Web site. “There is something in me that wishes there were a Bible verse that says, ‘If they abuse you in this-and-such kind of way, then you have a right to leave them.’”
Instead Holladay believes the couple should separate, undergo counseling, and work toward mending the marriage. He stressed, however, that no where in the Bible does it say “you should put up with abuse.”
Holladay’s statements caught the attention of Baptist blogger Danni Moss, an abuse survivor who uses a pseudonym to give anonymity to her children, family, and former in-laws. She said the commentary “expresses a distinct lack of understanding about the nature, heart, and spiritual roots of abuse. I think he believes he is doing right and doesn’t realize his ignorance or how much he is hurting people, so this is offered without personal judgment. But I also believe categorically that it is dangerous.”
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back to top76 Comments to “Domestic violence: Is it grounds for divorce?”
He is committing spiritual abuse by treating people this way and we are allowing ourselves to be abused if we “sit at his feet.”
GOD HATES PUTTING AWAY, GOD DOES NOT HATE DIVORCE. American Standard Version, 1901
The bible NEVER says WHY to get divorced. It says why you can put away your spouse. And that is only for unfaithfulness. If your partner is unfaithful, it is such a health risk, that you can simply put the partner away, separate, and not wait around for more exposure to health risks.
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I agree with the pastor …as long as he supports physical separation when there is abuse. That’s not an easy road either, and there will be issues of financial support and perhaps child custody arrangements to work on. In our country, at least, that may mean a “legal separation”, which, though it is often a first step toward divorce, at least keeps the door open for a little longer.
Also, of course, without a divorce neither party can enter into another marriage. Yet I believe it follows biblical teaching. And if the abused party has found physical safety somewhere (which can be another challenge), this should not be any more dangerous or hurtful to people than a divorce would be.
Though I’ve not experienced these issues personally, my parents did. My mother was willing to be separated without divorce, for as long as it took, because she believed exactly this way. After ten years of physical separation my father finally filed for divorce because he wanted to marry another woman. The divorce never happened, as he was killed in a car crash. My mother never did marry again but I believe she did the right thing.
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I suppose one could make the argument that inasmuch as the Bible teaches that a husband is to treat his wife as the “weaker vessel” — and I’ve always taken that to mean physically weaker — that by beating up on the weaker vessel, a husband is violating Scripture. Does that rise to the level of acceptable for divorce? I have to admit that for me personally, it would. If you have a piece of pottery, you take care of it so it won’t break. It seems a simple enough analogy.
I have a friend whose husband once grabbed her by the arm, and she told him a) let go, and b) never do it again. He let go and never did that again. Many women won’t make it clear what the standard is from the git-go. I, too, would give someone a second chance at this level of violence, but give me a black eye, push me down a flight of stairs (just some examples I’ve heard in my travels), and I would be separating at the least. No woman — and certainly not children — should live in fear of being injured or killed.
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I think one must think carefully about what abandonment means….
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Applying any moral formula or principle (Biblical or not) to divorce issues is difficult because in all divorces, at least one party is being dishonest in some way. Dishonesty is the root of ALL abuse and all conflict that is irresolvable (not all conflict arises from deception but the irresolvable kind always does).
It is hard for the honest party (and for the pastor attempting to help) to know what they are REALLY dealing with. I believe that any marriage can be preserved, healed or made healthy with mutual honesty. The problem is that mutual honesty is getting quite rare today. Without it, there is little hope and frankly, you shouldn’t want there to be hope for it–at least not until mutual honesty is restored. Every divorce has to be dealt with at a personal level and formulas fall short as sure-fire solutions. Lies throw a werench into all neat formulas, no matter how solid or ideal they are in theory. And Satan is the “father of lies.”
“Sin has many tools, but a lie is the handle that fits them all.” Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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I knew a couple of people who believed you haven’t sinned with an unbiblcal divorce until you remarry or have an affair then it’s adultery, therefore if your spouse remarrys or gets into a relationship before you do then they have committed adultery and you are then free.
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Divorce: A Gift of God’s Love, Callison
Find this on Amazon.
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In every divorce I know of, ‘abuse’ was raised as a ploy to get the children. In our state, if a man is accused of abuse, even if it is not true, he will lose everything.
The man is always assumed to be guilty and has no opportunity to prove his innocence. The courts will not listen to him. His life is over. And so, every woman who wants a divorce knows the formula. By the way, every divorce I’ve witnessed was initiated by the woman. The men were always willing to do whatever was necessary, but the women refused.
One friend married a woman from a foreign country. A web site from that country explains how to become an American citizen and become wealthy at the same time. You marry a man, wait two years and accuse him of abuse. My friends wife followed this perfectly and now she is a wealthy American woman.
I believe that every attempt should be made to save a marriage. If abuse is real, then separation may be necessary for safety’s sake. If the other side departs, as Paul say in 1 Cor 7, then let him depart.
But it should not be an automatic legal trigger that sets the wheels of injustice in motion to ruin every man whether the accusation is true or not.
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8-
The abuse was real in my case.
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I like Dr Laura’s standard for divorce: Abuse Adultery or Addiction. The Triple A rule works for me.
Do any of those 3 and you have already “constructively divorced” your spouse, IMHO.
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Joel Mark’s answer is insightful–the marriage is broken when honesty is no longer at the core. In addition, it seems to me that anyone who would physically hurt a spouse also is meeting Jesus’ definition for hating that spouse, and thus murdering them in their heart. And of course the Bible condemns murder.
God looks at the attitude of the heart–that’s what He judges. Each case needs to be worked through carefully and prayerfully with at least one, and probably several, accountability partners.
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10-
Yes, in other words, if you are a put away spouse, then get a divorce. Constructively divorcing your spouse is putting away your spouse, the thing that God hates. Better to get a divorce and make it legal so the person is free to marry another.
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Sorry about that Reg #9. I should change the word ‘ploy’ in #8 above to ‘cinch pin’ since it is impossible to know the real facts unless you were personally involved. As Joel points out, someone is always lying.
In my friend’s case with the foreign woman, she accused him of throwing a chair. My friend says his wife threw the chair at him. Who knows?
But does one incident like that qualify as abuse? Didn’t Lucy routinely throw dishes at Ricky? Is throwing dishes abuse or is it therapy?
These days ‘abuse’ can be anything, even verbal abuse or even so-called mental abuse. Mental abuse is pretty much the definition of marriage, isn’t it?. (I’m kidding)
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Xion: Certainly there are false accustaions of abuse, just as there can be of rape or other crimes, and I agree our society is attuned to believe the accuser.
But there are also very real cases of abuse. I am not going to try to make a Biblical argument for divorce in such cases — I will just be glad to not be one who feels bound to obey the Bible — but I will appeal to your compassion as a human being to not minimize it with comparisons to “I Love Lucy.”
(I may be less objective than some on this issue because I have a good friend who carries two scars on her back from her abusive ex-husband’s attempt to stab her to death when she left him — I guess she should have just separated and sought couple’s counseling, Sand?)
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I appreciate Holladay’s attempt to maintain a biblical standard while still recognizing the needs of the abused. I have also found myself in the same situation when counseling those in broken marriages. A place of safety must me found for the abused, but the bible does not list abuse specifically the way it discusses abandonment and infidelity. As Holladay states, it sure would be helpful if it did.
I have seen all kinds of rationalizations (some really far-fetched) for divorce. What Holladay is identifying is the biblical standard, not societies editorializations. The reality of marriage is that you have two fallen souls, bound together for better and worse. It will be a lifelong challenge to die to self, forgive the failings of one-another, and live in mutual love and service to the other. Along the way, God’s grace has to heal a lot of colateral damage from the consequences of our fallenness.
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I can’t find it within me to agree with this guy….
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Well, the Bible says what it says, and there’s no use altering or ignoring it. I think the physical separation thing is better than divorce.
I think this is just one of those teachings that is very, very difficult to follow. Most people just don’t have the strength to do it. Kind of like giving everything you have to the poor or cutting your hand off to prevent stealing. I think some people have suggested there may be a purpose to giving us these mandates that are almost impossible to meet. Something about stressing the importance of following Christ’s other teachings.
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Well John M., I mostly agree with Reg’s exegesis, that the word usually translated “divorce” actually refers to “putting away” … neglecting a wife and living as if not married to her, but not giving her the freedom of a divorce.
If it is to be interpreted in the more traditional way and enforced strictly, then it’s harmful and destructive. It compels people to stay in absolutely miserable situations, which they and their religious authorities agree they have no right to leave in the absence of one or two very narrowly-defined conditions.
I don’t see a loving God or a compassionate Messiah doing that to people. I can understand the value in not having people end marriages for frivolous reasons. But a woman whose husband beats her up on a regular basis is not offering a frivolous reason. By any reasonable moral standard, she has no obligation to stay married to him. And certainly not after the second time.
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Malachi 2:16: “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
Divorce, permitted by Moses “because of the hardness of men’s hearts,” is hated by God because it was an expression of deceit and abuse in Malachi’s time and culture. Divorce itself is not the sin in this passage, it is the underlying “treachery and violence” that find expression in it. In this oft referenced passage, it is the action of the man that is under judgment. No comparable verse expresses anything against a woman fleeing violence through divorce.
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The issue of domestic violence is not directly addressed with a specific verse, to the dismay of many. But, as a Reformed & Presbyterian Pastor I believe that domestic violence can be sufficient and Biblical grounds for divorce. If the ideal marriage is exhibited by Christ’s love for his church and if the husband is to loving in the same way, and if marriage is a solemn covenant before God (Jay Adams calls it a ‘covenant of commitment’), then violence may break the covenant. If a spouse is unwilling to break the cycle of violence, he/she becomes a covenant breaker and may be judged by the Elders accordingly. I believe it is necessary for Elders to deal with these issues rather than burying their heads in the sand. I believe they have a spiritual responsibility to state what is a Biblical vs un-Biblical divorce.
I’ve skipped some steps in the process to get to the conclusion.
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Ken: In this oft referenced passage, it is the action of the man that is under judgment. No comparable verse expresses anything against a woman fleeing violence through divorce.
That’s a good point. However, in the patriarachial society that ancient Israel was, the woman had very little ability to flee. She was likely unable to support herself except through prostitution, and legally it was usually the man who had the ability to initiate the divorce, not the woman.
I suspect that a large part of the past generation’s conservative resistance to women getting educations and having careers (feminism, in other words) had to do with wanting them to have less ability to be independent of a man for financial support. In the Bible’s time that was all but universally the case.
If a woman suffered physical abuse in the time of Jesus, just what was she to do? Unless she had a birth family should could go back to that would take care of her, or another potential husband waiting (which would be scandalous), her options were quite limited.
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Physically abusing a spouse is a crime. It is battery, plain and simple. Or rape, plain and simple.
Yet this “Christian” preacher, and various “tough on crime” posters here, suddenly get all touchy-feely and sophistic when it comes to the men who commit the overwhelming majority of these violent acts. They would have them sent for counseling instead of being arrested and jailed.
And the victims are supposed to go to counseling with the criminals!
(And then there’s xion who thinks they are all making up stories).
Oh well, what else would one expect from a religion with so little respect for women.
Its sad and pathetic and completely uncivilized. One of the more disgusting threads I have seen on this board.
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This type of religion is not about love. It’s about control.
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“…a spouse is unwilling to break the cycle of violence, he/she becomes a covenant breaker and may be judged by the Elders accordingly.”
And I would say that this constitutes “abandonment”. There are more ways than geographic to abandon a person.
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Arcadia posts:
“(And then there’s xion who thinks they are all making up stories).”
With this careless, untrue, and unkind rhetoric, you severely tempt me to call names and abandon the Christian call to be kind and gracious.
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#24, MakeitMan,
My point is the abuser demonstrates he/she is no longer willing to live in covenant relationship with their spouse by continuing to sin. The abuser may then be counted as an unbeliever and a bill of divorcement may be given by the church.
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#22&23, ARCADIA,
In spite of your anti-Christian screed, the goal in Biblical counseling is repentance, reconciliation and hopefully restoration of the marriage. Sometimes the goal is achieved, sometimes not. But in all cases the attempt must be made.
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22 and 23
Thank you
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19
God does not hate divorce. God hates putting away. See the correct use of the hebrew terms in the American Standard Version, 1901. In other words, God hates it when put away spouses do NOT get divorced.
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18
Nice to see you again on this one, Steve! Thanks!
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Unlike Xion, I have known few people who have raised abuse as an issue in the divorce. Of the three women who have claimed abuse, I am convinced that they told the truth. One only mentioned it to me personally, and never as part of official divorce proceedings. (The youngest kids were in high school and were given the choice of which parent to live with.)
The others both stayed in the abusive relationship for years because they had been taught at church that they should submit to their husbands, until finally they feared for their safety and that of their kids. In one case, the kids expressed great relief not to see their mother hurt any more. In the other, the ex-husband kept ignoring restraining orders to stay away, until finally enough he wound up in jail (I think on other charges – he had a bad drug problem).
I feel bad for those unfairly accused of abuse. But my personal experience doesn’t lead me to think it’s all that widespread (falsely alleging abuse in order to get the kids). Maybe it’s more common in some areas than others.
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I know of a reformed pastor who abused his wife and child and is still in the ministry. I tune out the religious establishment at large.
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Domestic Violence: Is it grounds for putting away?
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“My point is the abuser demonstrates he/she is no longer willing to live in covenant relationship with their spouse by continuing to sin. The abuser may then be counted as an unbeliever and a bill of divorcement may be given by the church.”
However you work it out, I cannot, in good conscience tell people who have been abused as Reg has, to stay in a relationship like that. When I see or hear of a woman or a child who has been abused or raped, it provokes me to a great anger. It tempts me to do and say things I should not. It’s not right, and there’s NO excuse for it, and no justification in my mind for a relationship like that to continue.
I would counsel the victims to get to safety first and foremost, and stay there…. and worry about the right and wrong of divorce afterwords.
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#32, REG wrote; “I know of a reformed pastor who abused his wife and child and is still in the ministry. I tune out the religious establishment at large.”
Sounds like raw bigotry to me, REG. Why disparage or discriminate against an entire category of people based on one alleged situation? Your comment sounds about as unfairly discrimminatory as it gets.
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Joel,
While I don’t condone Reg throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak, I do cut her some slack as a person who has been severely wounded by an abusive relationship, and exacerbating control issues and circumstances she found herself in.
Reg,
I’m truly sorry for the things that happened to you, and the way I figure it, you’re a real victim. In the year or so I’ve known about you, though, I’m not sure you’ve grown past any of the bitterness due to the truly horrible things that were done to you.
Let it go. It’ll eat at you until you do…
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#29, REG wrotes; “God does not hate divorce. God hates putting away.”
Wrong.
First, God hates a lot of things. See Proverbs 6:16-19 for a list of seven other things God hates.
Second, you are mincing words. There are two words in Hebrew that refer to a divorce. “Keritut” refers to the certificate of divorce. It’s the technical term. “Salah” (the one used in Malachi 3) is the verbal form that generally can refor to the act itself–it is an act of ’sending away’ or ‘putting away.’ That’s what divorce amounts to. In context in Malachi 3, that’s what God hates, not just the certificate but the act of divorce itself.
Third, what God hates, He can still forgive when genuine repentance (hating our own sins) rises in our hearts.
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Make It Man, I am just responding to REG’s comment and whatever slack she might need in person seems fine to me.
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I agree with Holladay.
I think we need to reevaluate what we perceive as the purpose or meaning of marriage. If, as Paul states in Ephesians 5, marriage is a parable for Christ and the Church, then it is first and foremost a covenental relationship. And unless Christ breaks His covenant with the Church and abandons us, I would be reluctant to say in any situation that scripture proscribes or permits divorce. That is not to say that there are no situations where a separation is warranted (for instance, abuse), but simply that “What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Does the Bible allow for divorce in the case of adultery?
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“Most people just don’t have the strength to do it.”
As I am short and have some arthritis, I guess I just wouldn’t have the strength to take on a six footer with fists. Wouldn’t have been able to do it as a younger woman either. Now, I will be generous and say that you probably meant strength of character to endure, but that gets beaten into the ground, too, after awhile.
Divorce laws differ in states, but to call the husband an abuser is a tried and true charge. There’s a lot in divorce that unless you’ve seen it, you just wouldn’t believe how low people go.
I don’t really think the New Testament gives men license to beat up women.
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Ivan: In spite of your anti-Christian screed, the goal in Biblical counseling is repentance, reconciliation and hopefully restoration of the marriage.
I think the real problem you have with Arcadia’s “screed” is that it’s hitting too close to the target. You’re defending the abuser here and telling the abused to stick with it … separated maybe, but not free to move on and start new.
And Xion thinks we’re talking about someone breaking a few plates in anger. Maybe he should spend a day or even an hour talking to women in a shelter and see if he still thinks they’re just exaggerating or making up stories to get the children.
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#34 & 41 – I am hardly defending the abuser, but I am counseling that the power of the Gospel really does change people. Separation is certainly needed, but so is counseling. If there is no repentance on the part of the abuser I would say the marriage is finished. However, there must be a sincere attempt at reconciliation in so far as Biblically possible; but that never includes forcing the abused to “stick with it.”
No one is “free to move on and start new” until all remedies – Biblical and legal – have been exhausted.
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Abuse is always wrong – by definition abuse is wrong.
If physical separation is the initial thing, and a reasonable attempt to get the abuser to repent fails (thus perpetuating the physical separation), don’t we get to the point of abandonment?
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Ivan: I can go with you down that road to an extent (and not just from a Biblical basis … if marriage has any role in a civil society at all, it shouldn’t be dissolved lightly) … but who do you think should make the determination of whether there has been sincere repentance? Or how long is long enough to try? Or what further harm the woman and children must endure before it’s clearly not working?
By the time the victim leaves — which often takes a great deal of courage given that abusers very often threaten their lives if they do — a lot has happened between them that no one on the outside, or maybe a carefully chosen confidante or two, is aware of.
Would you tell her that after enduring months or years of those, and finally mustering up the strength to leave despite his threats, that she now has to go sit in a room with him and a minister and give him a chance to repent?
Because, I don’t see how a compassionate person could make such a demand.
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If anyone has read “Love and Respect” by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs, you can easily see the “crazy cycle” theme running through this thread.
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A definition of what constitutes abuse might be helpful as well. Having known women who call it abuse if the husband is not leading in the direction she thinks they should go (choosing a Baptist church over Assembly of God for example) and follow through with a divorce, I am hesitant when I hear claims of abuse. But living in the field in which I live (foster children), I know that real abuse is very very real. In a true case of abuse, the abused should indeed get out to safety, at the first sign of it, preferably. And she should have a great deal of support as she and spouse try to correct whatever is wrong in the relationship to bring that about (in sickness and health). They married for life. People change, and we can not run just because a change happens (he wants us to move away from my family, that is abuse!). Nor should a person remain in danger. But, when a commitment is made, an effort should be made for restoration. And it might be years before it is safe to return. And if the spouse refuses to address the problem, it sounds like abandonment to me. But there are so many frivolous abuse claims that we should speak to it. And the abuse could be going to the man, lest we foget. And this has been a totally rambling post brought to you by a multitasker doing too many tasks right now.
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SteveG.
Much more would be needed beyond sitting in a room and repenting. Proof of change would be in order and that should be very strong proof. For example: if he is doing drugs, that has to stop and be stopped for a long time. Alcohol? Proven record of staying clean. It would depend on the situation but must be a true change, not just words. God knows our hearts, we people must rely on what we see on the outside and that is works.
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“is the verbal form that generally can refor to the act itself–it is an act of ’sending away’ or ‘putting away”
This is what I am calling putting away. It is not the verbal form of divorce, but the acting like you are divorced, but not following through with the legal divorce, which frees the person to marry another.
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Mumsee … ok … so what if she goes back, and now he’s made a commitment to put down the bottle and even done it for a few months. Three weeks later he falls of the wagon and she ends up in the hospital with a concussion and a broken arm?
How much of that has to happen before you would say, ok, she’s done enough? Because the chances are good that he’s going to apologize the next day and everything will be fine for a while, until the day it happens again. That’s just how abusive behavior is.
To be sure, I have no tolerance for false accusations or frivolous ones, but if you insist that the person making a claim of abuse prove it — especially to the satisfaction of someone who wants to make sure it meets the Biblical standard — a lot of people are going to suffer a lot more than they should ever have to.
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36-
I speak to the issues from which I have learned as they appear on this website. That does not constitute bitterness. It is not for you to say if I am bitter or not, that has nothing to do with this discussion.
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#44 STEVEG – Let me try to answer your questions as they were written:
1. I write as a pastor, so the context of repentance must be the local church through the Elders. They have a right to establish criteria and milestones, assuming that the abuser is willing to work things out. A refusal means, to me, the need for church discipline for him/her (the abuser). How long is long enough? – up to the church and the victim.
2. I would say that if the abuser is willing to be counseled, the victim must, before God if s/he is a Christian, sit down with a counselor to seek repentance on the abuser’s part first, then reconciliation if possible. If the victim claims to be forgiven of her sins by God through Christ; s/he must be willing to forgive the abuser. After forgiveness reconciliation may be possible and then, perhaps, the restoration of the marriage. This is not a quick process, but I have seen it happen because “nothing is impossible with God.”
3. I see it a very uncompassionate response to allow the victim to say to God, “You can’t restore my marriage,” which is pre-juding what may happen. And shutting the door to change.
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It seems clear the most loving and beloved Thinker in the Bible is also the one who has both the least tolerance for abusive authority figures and the least tolerance for remarriage after divorce. Why is so little being said on this thread about Jesus’ teaching on divorce? It’s not as though he never bothered to address the subject! Malachi and Paul are no less inspired or authoritative than Matthew or Luke, but is not Jesus himself central to understanding everything in the Bible? Should not every passage be understood with his person, work, and teaching as key interpretive issue?
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#49 STEVEG to MUMSEE
I do not think we seek to prove abuse, but rather prove repentance – tangible evidence of change. I think the biblical demand is for a changed life by the abuser. St. Paul uses the ‘put off, put on’ principle. Liers need to tell the truth; thieves need to need to do honest work, abusers need to show love for those they have abused, no just say it, but do it.
Frankly, I think the margin of error is slim here, the situation needs to be monitored, and milestones met in counseling, other wise the victim is able to divorce.
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#52 – What the Bible gives as the grounds for divorce are adultery/sexual uncleanness (Greek ‘porneia’) and willful desertion by an unbelieving spouse. Those are the only two reasons. I believe an abuser can fit into the latter category by his/her actions and lack of repentance.
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Ivan: Maybe. From what I know about abusive relationships, though, the decision to leave is not made lightly or come easily. If you then urge the victim to go through additional time of counseling and trying to reconcile, she might even go back to him .. and suffer still more.
I think you can make an argument for involving the church officials before that decision is made, but once it is … assuming the abuse is real, I think it’s more humane to let her carry it through without interference.
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StevG,
He would have to prove it before she went back and it would be a very slow process. People can and do learn to manage anger. Often they don’t. I am not suggesting a woman go into a dangerous situation.
A similar example: a woman goes into post partum depression and is at risk of killing her children. The children are removed and she is put under a doctor’s care with meds and counseling. Is she ever allowed near her children again? With counseling and meds if needed, and supervision at first, yes.
Another: parents neglect/abuse their children to the point they are removed by social services and placed in foster care. The parents do their jail time, get counseling, tick off the steps as mandated. Do they ever get their children back? Yes, if they do all the requirements and then under the supervision of the social workers and doctors. First, supervised meetings, then unsupervised an hour or two, then overnight and finally in the home with regular visits by social workers. But not always. If the parents do not follow through, it is supposed that they are not willing to make the changes and the children become available for adoption, they have abandoned their responsibility. People can and do change but not always. It is difficult to determine and nobody wants to see somebody hurt, but if it is possible because the abuser makes the changes and the abused finds what needs to be done to see it coming before it gets there and get out, it really is in the best interest of both to make it through. Both will become much stronger and better able to help others as well as find what true love means.
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1. MThe duty that some feel, the need to judge peoples’ divorces/marriages. Is it really OK to get divorced for (fill in the blank)
God hates putting away; God does not hate divorce, He allows divorce to end abuse and all kinds of mistreatment. Malachi 2:16
“For I hate putting away, saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, and him that covereth his garment with violence, saith Jehovah of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.”
The bible never tells us why we can get divorced. It tells us why we can’t put away a spouse.
Matt. 5:31 “It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (that is like saying that if you haven’t given your put away (mistreated) wife a divorce, then give her one) 5:32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.”
In other words, whoever marries someone who is legally divorced, is not committing adultery. If someone marries a person who is NOT legally divorced,(put away) adultery is being committed.
But, in our “churched” minds, the arguement continues that we (the religious establishment) can’t possibly just let people get divorced for any reason THEY choose, because everyone one would be getting divorced all the time. NO, they wouldn’t. Many people love their spouses and want to stay married. And many people are trapped in miserable situations, legally defined as marriages, that they won’t leave because the “church” says that you have to “catch the unfaithful” one in the act on order to KNOW that he or she is unfaithful.
The “church” doesn’t want to give up this control over peoples’ lives. The Roman Catholic Church has maintained so much of it, protestants don’t want to get too far off the track.
Many people are trapped in miserable situations, legally defined as marriages, that won’t leave because the church says that you can’t divorce except for adultery. Adultery happens to be very difficult to “prove”, especially when it is often accompanied by habitual lying.
Imagine being beaten, insulted, humiliated, ignored, neglected, cut off financially, or even completely separated (all of which are forms of being put away) and not being “allowed” to leave or flee all because there is one sin has not yet been committed/discovered.
My x-husband talked for years about a former employer who literally put away his wife. She lived in a separate apartment and was not given a divorce, so that the appearance was preserved to the public. I think they did this for 7 years until the children grew up. Of course, this man was also in the reformed church all his life, and that didn’t present any obstacles to his completely misunderstanding and violating the word of God.
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“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” Matthew 5:31-32
This seems pretty clear to me – and I’m pretty sure Jesus was referring to divorce in the legal sense here (hence the certificate).
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#55 STEVEG-
You seem to assume that the counseling is ineffective and there is no change. If the abuser does not change there is no basis (repentance) then for reconciliation. Your idea of it being ‘humane’ to let her go w/out interference is for me un-Biblical. There must be a full faith attempt at counseling first – attempt being the action word. An unrepentant abuser leaves the victim free in my mind.
In all this discussion I assume that the abuse is real and documented; both the abuser and victim claim to be Christians and under the authority of a local church.
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I know of a man who used to hit his wife and one day she had enough and called the police. They took him to jail where he stayed overnight. She dropped the charges the next day because the husband was the sole support of the family. This man never hit his wife again, though on occasion, the thought occurred to him and he would make a fist. The other thought that occurred to him was that she was more than capable of calling the police — it always hung over his head. There was no counseling, just a desire not to go to jail. They remained married for over 50 years.
Would this work for all? No. Some are not afraid of jail. But it’s another method of dealing with the problem. Sometimes you just have to stand up to a bully. In this case, change did occur.
This same family had a daughter whose husband did the same thing, but when he was called on it and it was made clear to him that he would lose everything — money meant a great deal to him and still does — he, too, learned his lesson.
Sometimes all it takes is bringing the problem out into the open. The daughter at first did not do so, but once it came to light and she received support from the family, the husband straightened up and flew right. They have been married for over 30 years.
Both wives were Christians and didn’t want to divorce, and but for that, these husbands would have been in jail and would have lost their families.
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Just remember, some who read this are going through these situations right now.
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Some random thoughts:
1. Women should be very careful before getting married. My mother knew very well that my father had difficulty controlling his temper before she married him. She did it anyway, thinking that her love would “change” him. Bad idea.
2. Girls should be taught, especially in a Christian setting, that they are precious in God’s eyes and that nobody has the right to hurt them. At the first sign of abuse, they should get out of a relationship.
3. As Arcadia said, abuse of a person is a crime. Women should not hesitate to call the police the first time anyone hurts them. Sadly too many women let other emotions (including the man’s intimidation of them) keep them from being so bold.
4. I’m not saying it’s the woman’s fault. I’m just sending out advice for anyone willing to listen.
5. The pastor is interpreting the Bible correctly. Despite some comments to the contrary, he explicitly states that he does not believe that an abused person should just take it.
6. Our interpretation of the Bible should be based on the words of the text, not on our emotion. “I just don’t think God would expect that” is not sound method of biblical interpretation.
7. If we as Christians don’t believe in repentetance, reconciliation, forgiveness, and restoration, then we might as well put our Bibles in the closet and board up our churches. God loves the abuse victim and the abuser. The ultimate goal, as Ivan says, is for healing of the individuals and of the family. (The immediate goal is certainly to get and keep people out of danger.)
8. Church discipline should not focus on the woman’s sticking it out. The elders should strongly confront the abuser on his sin and insist that he repent and submit to counseling or be kicked out of the church as an unbeliever (with future reprentence still possible).
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62
Your numbers 5 “The pastor is intrepreting the Bible correctly” and 6 “Our intertretation of the Bible should be based on the words of the text” do not go together. The religious establishment cannot survive as we know it and expose the errors of modern translations of the Bible. Currently, and for many years, the actual wording of the divorce/putting away passages is and has been ignored. The American Standard Version, 1901, uses the putting away phrase in all of the passsages in which it is found. The KJV “put away’” the putting away phrase in place. Post KJV translations “put away” putting away altogether and replaced it with the word divorce. We now EQUATE divorce and putting away, but they are NOT the same. God was telling men to play by the rules, stop being lazy/abusive, mistreating/ignoring your wife, and give your wife a legal divorce so she can be married successfully.
What preacher is going to risk his salary/position (reputation in the community as one said) by bringing back an old version of the Bible and exposing the lies that have been spread through our modern versions. You are right when you say to get back to the actual words in the Bible, but we cannot rely on the clergy to do this for us.
It is not the nature of a control group to grant freedom. Only God does that, and one means he uses are his own words.
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61,
Good point, Bob. And isn’t it great that if that is the case, those people would have the guts to say anything at all given the exhausting nature of the experience?? Many of these poeple lose their friends when going through trials such as these. It tends to show you who your real friends are, in many ways. Of course, God being the one true friend. he shows himself faithful over and over again.
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60, NJ,
“she received support from the family”
And there it is, the famous “but God…” line that we find in scripture and now in relaity. Unless a woman has great earning capacity, she needs SUPPORT from outsiders. She does not have the strength to make it on her own. This is God’s work, providing support from the family. Lord, give us discernemnt to find your work!
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63
I meant to say the the KJV exchanged the phrase putting away with the word divorce in one place. Newer translations don’t use the phrase putting away at all, but instead use the word divorce.
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JBH: “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” Matthew 5:31-32
Interesting though, that the man can divorce his wife on the grounds of adultery, but Jesus says nothing about a wife being able to divorce her husband for the same reason. In fact by saying “whoever” when he clearly means men only, he’s reflecting the patriarchial society of the time.
Is that a rule you also want to enforce today? You might have a hard time finding Biblical support for a woman-initiated divorce on any grounds.
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Reg: God was telling men to play by the rules, stop being lazy/abusive, mistreating/ignoring your wife, and give your wife a legal divorce so she can be married successfully.
So should the preacher be advocating and urging a divorce?
(By the way, I certainly don’t agree with the implication that it is entirely the husband’s decision).
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680
What does the preacher have to do with it?
Do we have to have a preacher’s approval??
Why is it that we somehow expect a preacher to represent all of reality from a pulpit? This notion is laughable to me.
Would it be enough if God’s children, the saints, simply just understood his word and could encourage each other with it?
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Makes you wonder why God calls some to be pastor’s (shepherds), huh? Maybe He did not know what He was talking about. Yes, ideally, we would all be walking with God and attuned to Him. Since He knew we were not there yet, He designed it so we could help each other. Pastor is one of those helps. Not that the pastor knows all, but he should be making it a matter of study and should be interested in helping the flock to keep safe from the enemy.
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70-
we have to hear it from the pulpit or we don’t have permission, in our minds, anyway, to do it….
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MUMSEE
I don’t equate biblical shepherding with the professional pastor image that we experience today.
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68-Arcadia
Should a Christian, a SAINT, rather, (sorry, I had to change the word from preacher to saint from your question) advocate divorce? Absolutely, with discernment, support should be given for put away spouses to get legal divorces. And then, we need to move past our obsession with diagnosing marriages and think that we know enough to judge.
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The pastor is absolutely right. God has said clearly that He sanctions divorce on only two grounds: abandonment + marital unfaithfulness.
But I hope the pastor has a follow-up lesson (on some upcoming pastor’s training retreat weekend, perhaps) on the touchy subject of the ADULTERY sanctioned by every pastor in America who performs the wedding ceremony of someone who has un-biblically divorced his or her spouse.
The bible is clear: except a person is abandoned or has seen his marriage bed violated by his/her spouse, should that person “re-marry” they are guilty of ADULTERY. And there will be no adulterers in heaven.
God help the “pastor” who HELPS his congregant into the eternal fires of hell.
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So if the husband beats up the wife every day but doesn’t have sex with another woman, she’s never free to find a husband who doesn’t beat her, Exsulent?
What a repellent “loving” God you have there.
Luckily for God, I don’t believe that he is so cruel. Some of his so-called followers, though, wow.
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74,
There is nothing excellent at all about what you have said. We don’t often get to see our marriage bed defiled, as the adulterers lie and hide to keep the truth from us. What an ignorant notion.
What bible are you reading? God hates putting away, not divorce. One may put away his/her spouse only for adultery.
We are never given reasons for divorce, it only needs to be legal.
God left the reasons for divorce, (heaven forbid) up to the individuals!!!!!
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