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No way out (continued)
Late on Friday, I posted about Capt. Roger Hill, a West Point grad and Bronze Star winner who, after capturing enemy spies in Afghanistan, is now back home in the States awaiting dismissal from the Army. There were two linked articles for you to read before commenting, so since I posted the item so late, I’m reposting it. I’m really interested in hearing from more of you about Hill’s case.
Here are the two article links: One to my story, and one to an article by P.J. Tobia in the Washington Post</a>. It’s important to read Tobia’s story, too, because he was present in Afghanistan for all public portions of Roger Hill’s Article 32 hearing, a military proceeding that enables an investigating officer to weigh evidence from both sides and recommend further action.
Also, here’s a link to comments on the earlier post by Chas, Sawgunner, HRW, Michael Martin and others. Take a look at all of it, then come back to this thread and weigh in.
back to top17 Comments to “No way out (continued)”
When I was a flyer in the Air Force, we were always worried about “getting burned”. Getting put in a complicated situation that we couldn’t control, and then making a stupid error that would end our career or maybe even get somebody hurt or killed.
One of the reasons I got out of the service is the atmosphere of “somebody’s gotta be at fault”. There’s no room for admission that the system itself might be screwed up. I suppose it has to be that way on some levels, but when you start treating your officers like machines, there are consequences.
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Since Sawgunner has actually served in the Iraqi theater, I should think his comments would have added weight.
As a military spouse, I agree with many who point out the command was at fault for not acting. Where are the senior officers and why aren’t they answering questions?
The military is inherantly political and it takes a politically savvy officer to maintain his integrity in even routine military life, much less combat. To throw these men to the dogs for acting in a lose-lose situation seems heartless and morally wrong.
On the other hand, Lt. Calley did what he thought was right and destroyed a village to save it–cooler heads obviously should have prevailed then.
But it’s easy for us to sit here at our computer screens in safe north America and throw rocks.
John M’s comments above are also germane. The nuclear submarine force used to hold critiques over every incident (they probably still do) because nuclear safety is so critical and politically charged. The goal was not necessarily to find a culpable mistake-maker and throw him away, but to discover what actually happened so it would never happen again. If people are worried about being punished, they’re less likely to want to tell the truth.
Unless, of course, they’re Christians and report to an ever higher authority.
Difficult situtation. I’m sorry for everyone involved.
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I posted on the previous thread a statement that “We can’t win this.” The reason is that we are accommodating the enemy and even taking advice from him. I have attached here, part of a story by Bill Gertz of the Washington Times to illustrate this. I don’t know how to link, but most of you can find it if you’re interested. I can’t post the entire article because I’ve noticed that large excerpts get deleted.
In the sorry tradition of shooting the messenger, the Pentagon is cashiering its top expert on Islamist doctrine, Stephen Coughlin. Some members of Congress are now contemplating hearings to ask why. Along with drawing attention to Coughlin’s research, now circulating on the Internet, the growing controversy has thrown a spotlight on Coughlin’s alleged nemesis at the Pentagon, a top aide named Hesham Islam — whose tale deserves closer attention. Not least, as a reporter for the Armed Forces Press Service observed last year, it would make a great Hollywood blockbuster….
In England’s office, Islam’s official title is special assistant for international affairs. In that capacity he pops up as a man-about-town in Washington, making the rounds of embassies. But Islam also works as England’s point man for Pentagon outreach programs to Muslim groups. … That’s alarming to some, such as terrorism expert Steven Emerson, executive director of the Investigative Project on Terrorism, who, for more than a decade, has been tracking Islamic extremist networks in the U.S. In a recent appearance on Fox News, Emerson described Hesham Islam as, in his view, “an Islamist with a pro-Muslim Brotherhood bent who has brought in groups to the Pentagon who have been unindicted co-conspirators.”
Steve Emerson is “Max” in Terrorist Hunter, by Anonymous.
This story is about a year old and I’m not sure that Islam is still in the Pentagon, put the point is still relevant.
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The credit for the above excerpts should be to:
Claudia Rosett
National Review Online
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Well I agree, the command was at fault. Once contacted, they should have immediately come to pick up the prisoners or else there should have been some mechanism in place in the rules that would allowed a longer hold time once it’s known that the response won’t be as immediate as needed.
While I sympathize with the need for confessions, though, I can’t bring myself to approve Hill’s decision to beat one out of them. And I am, as always, a little taken aback at Christians who seem to think this sort of behavior is commendable.
Of course, having heard Xion go on at length at how near-hypothermia is “making someone a little cold,” or forcing someone to hold a stress position for days is “making them a little uncomfortable,” I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
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It does seem as though a devout muslim devising Pentagon tactics would present somewhat of a conflict of interest. Better the US hire Ayan Hirsi as an advisor on dealing with muslim extremists/ jihadi fanatics
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The theater command should promote and widely publicize a policy where spies/double agents if caught would face execution. If you were caught behind enemy lines in civvy clothing in all prior wars, your goose was cooked.
In the final analysis, maybe we arent really a nation suited to fighting wars against tribesmen armed with small arms. All our gadgetry superiority has proved to be of little value in the mountains of Afghanistan. We should confine ourselves to dropping bunker busters or at best only fight uniformed armies equipped with tanks and other conventional warfare accoutrements.
I think the revulsion so many had with the details of the Viet Nam War’s “Phoenix Program” [targetted assassinations against VC leaders] revealed a deep-seated trait of the American people that we cannot ignore.
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I’m disgusted with the politicizing.
Priority #1 HAS to be our soldiers. Or we shouldn’t be there. Period.
I’m angry that these men are facing such stiff penalties. Perhaps they should be disciplined, but not in a career-ending, possibly freedom-losing way.
When the superiors refused to acknowledge soldiers in the field requesting help, the superiors became the cause of all the rest.
These men should be counseled on their breach of policy, and then the superiors should be forced to apologize to them and serve any sentences that the field soldiers are given.
Good grief!
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Obviously, Captain Hill should have trusted his superiors and simply released the men after the 96 hour deadline.
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Also the Gitmo detainees, let them go to kill again.
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I’m sure the new president will set all that straight…
Change we can believe in.
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Am I sensing a lack of faith in the military and political leaders of our country?
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If you were caught behind enemy lines in civvy clothing in all prior wars, your goose was cooked. In the final analysis, maybe we arent really a nation suited to fighting wars against tribesmen armed with small arms.
I mentioned this previously and sawgunner alluded to it also but when NATO joined the conflict in progress, the sides were fairly clear cut; Northern Alliance vs Taliban. It has devolved into a tribal war more concerned with tribal and family interests. Even the resurgent Taliban is not necessarily the same beast. In many cases they are paid gunmen who find for the interests of Pushtan tribesmen. At this point, I think NATO should pull back and let the glorified mayor of Kabul, Karazi, to step up and stop relying on NATO.
In this particular case , the tribal nature of the war makes it difficult for NATO troops to maintain the rule of law such as it is in a war zone.
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The title says “No way out”, meaning this was an impossible situation. That is true. Politics and ignorance of Islam and tribalism has mucked up this war like no other.
But there were several ways out for Hill personally, each one increasingly more difficult.
1. The first way out was for Hill to not let on that he knew they were double-agents until he had agreement with his superiors as to what to do. That was his first mistake.
2. Once the cat was out of the back, Hill had two choices. Let them go (which would put his men at risk) or incarcerate them indefinitely. Neither of these options are good, but at least with the second one, his superiors would be forced to deal with it.
3. He could go over his commander’s head and blow the whistle. This is an even worse option, but it would protect his men and he could possibly find sympathy from superiors.
4. The option he chose was the worst option of all. It was to knowingly violate his orders and the rule of law. If the law comes down on him, then that is simply justice.
He was put in a FUBAR situation, but his decisions only made matters worse.
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Xion is correctomundo! I think media photo opps of the released spies walking out of the confinement area would have been youTubed and Hill would have been hailed as a genuine whistle blower. Meanwhile, pre-positioned snipers could have handled these spies quite effectively.
If Afghan has decayed into little more than rival tribe/gangs jockeying for superiority, we should recognize that such a fractious nation is no longer a threat to anyone. When Afghanistan was a sanctuary/training ground for AlQaeda we were correct in attacking. It is once again a failed state, only now it is one which cannot harm the USA. (Barring opium production, that is)
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“Glorified Mayor of Kabul” yep, that pretty much describes him
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If ever circumstances were extenuating, it would seem that they certainly were in this case.
I just cannot bring myself to judge these men who put themselves in harm’s way for my sake.
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