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The Madoff mirror
In his column today, Cal Thomas writes:
Here is the dirty secret about the Madoff tragedy. Madoff is us. Yes, he is. Do not shut down your computer in disgust. We are all potential members of “Swindler’s List.” Do you know why our gut reaction is so strong and so hostile to Bernard Madoff (“I hope he rots in jail,” said one of his “victims”)? It is because he mirrors the flaw in each of us. We instinctively react to such people because they strip away our facade and reveal what theologians used to call “sin,” before we became “dysfunctional” and in need of medication, not salvation. In extreme circumstances, we have crucified people who exposed our darkness to the light.
Read his column in its entirety here.
Topic: Culture, WorldMagBlog
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back to top70 Comments to “The Madoff mirror”
Excellent. The excerpt from Colson’s book regarding Eichmann affected me profoundly when I first read it years ago. I’ve never forgotten it, it’s a sobering lesson for all of us.
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Hits squarely between the eyes.
I’d also recommend more people read Jerry Bridges book “Respectable Sins”. It’s easy to posture self righteousness especially in the case of large, emotionally charged public sins.
Much harder to swallow our own pride and submit to our unfair, demanding boss. Or humble ourselves, walk across the yard and serve our rude neighbor.
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I concur regarding the book “Respectable Sins.” Ouch.
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Baloney!! There are people that are angry about this outrageous swindle for the sin itself and for the suffering it brought to other people. Thomas’ article is pious claptrap.
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On the one hand, I protest, because I haven’t been irresponsible in my finances.
On the other, I am quite aware of my own sinfulness…
As a once famous possum said:
“We have met the enemy, and he is us.”
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Hadassah (a Jewish women’s charity) was one of the victims of Madoff.
Hard to believe charitable/philanthropic groups dont demand and get more financial transparency from the individuals they entrust their donations with.
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After they examined the Madoff scandal, what lessons would be forthcoming from:
Kreflo Dollar?
Joyce Meyer?
Robert Tilton?
No transparency from them from what I’ve seen and read
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I can promise that if I had the means to swindle people out of millions of dollars for my own gain … I would not do it, no matter how much Unsilent Cal thinks I would.
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You fail to understand the point, SteveG.
People who are incapable of seeing a tendency toward evil in themselves shouldn’t be trusted. It’s the ones who believe that eveything they do is upright who are the most repressive.
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Neither would I, Steve, and that’s not the point.
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Beware, SteveG. Pride goeth before destruction. Money may not be your besetting temptation, but like every man you are vulnerable to world, flesh, and devil, “and great was the fall of that house.”
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Being aware that you are capable of sin could be the thing that keeps you from accepting that innocent lunch date with an attractive co-worker or walk out of the room when the child has pushed you to the limit or not go back for another look at that beautiful piece of jewelry sitting unguarded on a counter.
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#9 DavidL,
Correctomundo
Some lefties think they can do anything perfectly and are pure as the driven snow.
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You never really know what you’d do. It may have started with a little slip on Madoff’s part where he thought he’d return the money and then it became a habit and easy to do without a second thought. I don’t drive and talk on the cell phone, but it’s a very bad habit to easily fall into, for example. We have to consciously think not to pick up that phone. How often have people said “just this once.” And after the outrage about what he pulled off, maybe there’s a little guilt involved there, too. Cal isn’t all that far off on human nature.
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Good points made in 9-11. Sin can be so subtle (I have a feeling Madoff didn’t see what he did in the beginning as a “swindle” but was able to justify it as a way of helping others and himself economically?). Or as KBells points out, it’s “just a business lunch out.”
We should never underestimate our ability to fool ourselves and justify our own actions. We are all weak.
There but for the grace of God….
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Cal Thomas is very silly.
And evangelicals need to make up their minds. On the one hand they’re always telling us and writing books about the importance of virtues and good character. They certainly bought millions of the books McCain and Bill Bennett wrote on the importance of developing character and virtue.
Then they turn around and insist that there’s no such thing as good character, and the only thing that keeps any of us from stealing our fellow humans blind is Jesus.
That’s nonsense, and it blatantly contradicts their emphasis on character. I’m with SteveG. I would never rip people off for $50 billion, or for $50. Am I saying the thought of getting rich by defrauding people would never cross my mind? No, we’re all human, and thoughts like that cross everyone’s mind occasionally. But the vast majority of us have the self restraint not to act on them, and it has nothing to do with God or Jesus. Just as everyone of us is a liar if he says he’s never wanted to punch someone, and yet I’d very surprised if anyone on WoW has ever physically assaulted another human.
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I somehow missed #4. Well said, Manxman. Pious claptrap is Cal Thomas’s stock in trade.
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Virtue and good character are the result of disciplined choices and not indulging the sin nature. But sin is always right there with us. And only when you stop being in denial over your sin can you understand and appreciate the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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Does anyone really believe that Cal Thomas would have written this “there but for the grace of God go all of us” article had Bernie Madoff’s name been Ahmad Hussein? I doubt it very much.
And had he written this very same article about someone named Ahmad Hussein who ripped people off for $50 billion, I think Christians probably would have been raising a huge stink, and calling Thomas a blasphemer. But he can compare Bernie Madoff’s massive fraud to what Christians believe is Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross and nobody bats an eye:
Incredible. Bernard Madoff as a Christ figure, crucified for our sins.
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Wow. Talk about really missing the entire point.
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People don’t despise Madoff because he stole fifty billion dollars. No, they despise him because, just like Jesus Christ, he exposed our sinfulness.
And Christians don’t bat an eye at this. In fact, they eat it up. There’s a big market among Christians for blasphemy disguised as pious claptrap.
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No, Donna, that is Thomas’s point. Why do you think Mickey excerpted that part?
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OK, Donna. I’ll let you explain this passage:
Please tell us who else except Jesus Christ has been crucified “for exposing our darkness to the light”?
Tell us who Cal Thomas was comparing Bernie Madoff to, if not Jesus Christ?
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Casting Crowns – Slow Fade
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I can think of few people, if you can call them that, who are begging for crucifixion right now – this very minute :=-)
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The focus of the passage is on us. The intent clearly is not to say Madoff’s a “Christ figure” in the sense of elevating him in some way; it’s on mankind’s self-righteousness & reaction when our own penchant for sin is exposed.
How often have you heard it said the people will rail the most against the very sins with which they most struggle themselves? We love to point fingers so we can tell ourselves, “There, see? I’m not THAT bad.” It reassures us (falsely) that we are in good standing with God on our own merits.
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Night Train # 23
Jesus Christ was NOT crucified “for exposing our darkness to the light”.
It is because we are sinful, and don’t like to admit it, that when someone reveals the reality of our sinful human nature we want to cover it up in whatever ways necessary. (Even crucify them, in a variety of ways, if necessary.)
Jesus’ motive in being crucified was to pay the penalty of our sin.
Our motive in crucifying Jesus was to silence His self righteous blasphemy of claiming to be God and leading many to believe His claims.
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Fisherman, thanks for the further clarification.
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Steve G #8 “I can promise that if I had the means to swindle people out of millions of dollars for my own gain … I would not do it, no matter how much Unsilent Cal thinks I would.”
I believe that is probably true. But, I believe the real issue is not at what level we are “sinful” (hurtful, uncaring, using, abusing, etc.) to each other. The real issue is in what ways are we treating God with less than the honor and submission that He deserves. And as for myself, I have swindled God in a million ways mild and major. And it is my swindle that God paid for with Jesus’ crucifixion.
Most of the time I would much rather criticize your swindles rather than my own.
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I didn’t say it. Cal Thomas did.
So Fisherman, please tell us who Cal Thomas was talking about when he said this:
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Actually, Cal Thomas did not say “Jesus Christ was crucified for exposing our darkness to the light.”
However, I suppose that he could have been referring to Jesus, among others, in his comment.
My point was simply, and most importantly, that Jesus Christ was NOT crucified for exposing our darkness to the light, but for other more significant reasons.
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The divine purpose of Jesus’ death was as an atonement for sin.
The reason for the immense hostility toward Jesus – which led the crowds to call for his death – was because he had exposed man’s darkness & sin, claiming to be God.
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Fisherman, besides Jesus of Nazareth, who are these “others” you think Cal Thomas may have been referring to?
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Nighty, judge not lest ye be judged.
By saying you are incapable of doing what Madoff did — or committing any sin for that matter — you are declaring yourself some sort of superior being. You’re not. You’re like the rest of us, sinners from youth up. That goes for SteveG, too. And that’s the thing that you non-Christians, you leftys never remember.
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Maybe he didn’t mean crucify in a literal sense but rather in the sense that we seek to silence and destroy them for the truth they expose, truth about themselves and us as a society and individuals.
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Whether he meant it literally (which he obviously did) or figuratively, you’re still left with the fact that Thomas is clearly calling Madoff a Christ figure, who is hated not because what he did was evil, but because he shines a light on the darkness of the human soul. There’s no other way to interpret what he said:
And notice how he puts “victims” in quotes. Real nice.
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You should read more carefully. I said no such thing. I don’t believe I’m incapable of ripping people off. That’s why I didn’t say that. I didn’t say I could never do such a thing. I said I wouldn’t do such a thing. And I wouldn’t. Nor would most humans, who are by and large decent people.
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If Cal Thomas was “clearly calling Madoff a Christ figure” he was wrong. (I don’t think that is what Thomas meant.)
But, I think Night Train is simply trying to pick a fight.
All the while missing the basic point that we can often see ourselves in the sins of others if we are willing to admit it.
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Well, that’s certainly easier than answering my question. You said that Thomas “may have been” referring to Jesus “among others”, when he wrote that we have “crucified people who exposed our darkness to the light.”
So who are these mysterious “others” you refer to that have been crucified?
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Oops. I cut that off.
So who are these mysterious “others” you refer to that have been crucified “for exposing our darkness to the light”?
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I think Cal’s point is that we’re all capable of doing evil, and given the right circumstances and situation, doing great evil. I think that’s an accurate point.
When he said “In extreme circumstances, we have crucified people who exposed our darkness to the light.” my take was that he was referring to men like Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard who, having exposed the deeds that were going on in the church, were summarily drummed out of the church (e.g. “crucified”). Conservative Christians in particular, do have the knack for shunning someone who strays and then wiping away all traces of them ever being a part of their churches. It’s very reminiscent of what the Soviets used to do to dissidents.
But I’m not with Cal on the blaming the victims of Bernie Madoff’s swindle. A person can do everything right and still be betrayed. For instance, spouses who betray their marriage vows. The non-offending spouse might have done nothing wrong. Marriage involves a certain amount of trust in the other person upholding their end of the marriage vows. Or take child care. Parents have a certain level of trust that their children will not be abused. You can do everything right – check their licensing, get references, etc. But that trust can be betrayed. And in the world of high finance that Bernie traveled in, there is a level of financial trust that’s built up. Bernie took advantage of that trust and betrayed them.
All I’m saying is that society functions on a level of trust. If everything has to be verified, the whole country would grind to a halt. You trust that the mechanic who rotated your tires tightened the lug nuts. You trust that the prescription your doctor gave you is the right one.
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Also Fisherman, Donna J, and Deet, if Thomas really believes that what Madoff did truly evil, then why does he put the word “victims” in quotes when referring to the people Madoff stole from?
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Nice theory, Anlir. Except for the fact that it turns everything upside down. Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard didn’t “expose the deeds that were going on in the church.” Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard got exposed as complete hypocrites.
Great. Bernie Madoff as the suffering savior, and Jim Bakker and Ted Haggard as the weeping prophets.
I love WoW.
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As opponents on this and other similar venues, it seems to me, we tend to not be looking for an admission of guilt but truly long for the public humiliation of the offender. We tend to “crucify” each other with our superior arguments. (And no, that doesn’t make any of us Christ figures)
Some people would rather have Madoff rot in jail than have all the people get their money back. Some of us would rather have our opponents stupidity effectively exposed than have them change their heart and mind.
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Fisherman, could you please answer the question in #33 and #40?
Thanks.
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Fisherman (#38) I completely agree. This is getting almost silly.
Again, the (straight-forward and simple) point Thomas is making is clear. It focuses on us and the importance of humility, realizing that we are all capable of being greed or dishonesty or whatever other sin and temptation you want to point to.
Madoff had pleaded guilty and will now face the criminal justice system and punishment, as he very well should.
But back to us: It’s just so much easier for us to spend our time being shocked & horrified by the very public sins of others rather than allowing it to prompt perhaps some honest self-examination, lest we, too, are in danger of a fall. And remember, any violation of God’s law (large and “small” alike) is just that: a violation of God’s law.
We all stumble in many ways, as the book of James says. The columnist here is simply saying we would all do well to remember that.
(And “victims” was put in quotes I suspect because there was a desire there, as well, to get rich quick. They were indeed victims of this scheme, but duped perhaps because of their own underlying greed. Nevertheless, as I said, Madoff is the legal perpetrator here and deserves to be punished.)
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With regard to the infamous televangelists, I’d suggest that their disgrace could indeed be seen as a prompting for the church to look inward. They brought shame on the name of Christ. But how often have we done so, albiet in less public ways?
It doesn’t make what they did any less shameful or hideous. But it should give us all a good dose of humility and cause to examine our own lives and our own churches.
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Night Train,
Do you really believe that Cal Thomas is saying that Madoff isn’t guilty of anything, and that perhaps, he even deserves exaltation rather than punishment?
If that’s how you interpret him, it’s no wonder you would think that he’s silly. But I’m amazed at how far off the mark you are in your understanding. To most of us, you’re the one looking kind of silly here.
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NJLAwyer: By saying you are incapable of doing what Madoff did — or committing any sin for that matter — you are declaring yourself some sort of superior being. You’re not. You’re like the rest of us, sinners from youth up. That goes for SteveG, too. And that’s the thing that you non-Christians, you leftys never remember.
I said no such thing. Certainly I’m a flawed human being. But when Thomas says We are all potential members of “Swindler’s List,” he is suggesting that given the chance, we all would do just what Madoff did.
No, we all would not. But I won’t be investing my money with Cal Thomas now.
More and more, each trip to WoW reveals some new slander on my good name from NJLawyer. Like clockwork.
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Ree: I don’t think that’s what Cal Thomas is saying, but I do have to join Night Train in wondering why he put “victims” in quotation marks. Is there some disagreement over whether the people whose money Madoff stole should be considered victims?
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Never ever believe anything a lefty says and never trust them with your life or money. Watch what they do instead. If someone would have followed those always true rules with Madoff, a typical lefty, he would have been exposed immediately.
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NT #45
No.
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SteveG,
Donna J answered that in #46. He’s certainly not suggesting that the victims bear the same culpability as Madoff, but that their own sin nature made them into easy marks. He’s talking about the universality of sin.
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Thanks Ree — there is a difference between legal guilt here and a personal weakness that leads one to fall into sin.
They are not legal victims. They deserve to get their money back and Madoff deserves to go to jail.
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Night Train,
Why do you keep hounding Fisherman with this question? Thomas did refer to “people,” whom we’ve crucified for this reason, and not just a single person, so he’s clearly speaking figuratively of crucifixion and he’s extending the metaphor beyond the sinless Christ to sinful people. Why is it important to you that Fisherman name some of these people? Why not ask Cal Thomas, himself, for the kinds of examples he had in mind if it’s that important to you? The rest of us can only speculate.
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I’m sorry, I misstated that last graph. The victims here ARE — legally — victims.
How they became victims is that they were weak and willing to go along with Maddoff’s scheme to get rich quick without having to earn it.
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He is suggesting, SteveG, that there may come a day when circumstances present themselves when you might not only be tempted but that you will commit the sin. You can NEVER know what will happen.
If someone had told me I would go to law school, I would have laughed. I laughed about a lot of things, both good and bad, that have happened, thinking they could never happen to me. Life has not been a straight line for me. If you’ve never been challenged, I feel sorry for you.
Never say never.
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I’ll agree “victims” given the way it’s often used these days, wasn’t the best choice of words. They were in fact victimized by trusting Madoff whether their own greed lead into his scheme is another matter.
And I do agree that Madoff should be punished for what he’s done.
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I really can’t figure out what Night Train’s point is, other than to just gainsay whatever everybody else is saying. The closest I can figure, he’s saying Cal Thomas is a poopyhead and that people are either all good or all bad. The first point is just a throwaway smear of no consequence. The second flies in the face of everything we understand about the human condition. You don’t even have to be a Christian to recognize that people are complex and capable of good at some times and evil at others.
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LMBO!
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I think we can extend the application so that, even though a given person might never commit some specific sin, (and perhaps SteveG would never swindle people out of their money under any circumstances) we will all betray what we know is right in one way or another given certain circumstances.
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Your imagery is getting a little too graphic.
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Looking at Anlir’s post at #41, I’d amend my earlier remarks somewhat to say it is up to those who “bought into” the scheme to examine their own motives. They may or may not have been motivated by greed, I didn’t mean to judge or presume that for them.
It requires much discernment (among those who know them best) when ministers have strayed and then repent. True repentance calls for complete forgiveness (although it’s my feeling they probably should remain out of church leadership either way).
Sadly, so many of our churches have failed to exercise loving discipline on a personal, one-to-one level (where it ought to be carried out first and foremost), that these things often go unchecked and finally spill out into a very public arena. Then everyone lines up, club in hand, to take random shots at the individual (whom most have never even met personally).
Church discipline isn’t enjoyable, but it is what has been set up biblically to restore those who are struggling with sin. If practiced by the elders rightly, with discretion and love, it goes a long way toward heading off some of these scandals and helping people before they slip so far into major trouble.
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I thought Anlir’s #41 was a thoughtful comment.
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Agreed.
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“But when Thomas says We are all potential members of “Swindler’s List,” he is suggesting that given the chance, we all would do just what Madoff did.”
Nah… I don’t think so. My take is that Thomas says that we all have potential to be members of “Swindlers List” he means just that- potential. We have a propensity to sin, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we will sin, at least not in that particular area. We will all sin, but not in the same areas.
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“I don’t think that’s what Cal Thomas is saying, but I do have to join Night Train in wondering why he put “victims” in quotation marks. Is there some disagreement over whether the people whose money Madoff stole should be considered victims?”
I think Thomas put those quotes there because many of those folks were partially victims of their own greed. I would venture to say that they probably should have taken heed of the common advice; “if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.” Don’t take that to mean I’m letting Madoff off the hook. He should be made to recompense these people at least their initial investment, if not a reasonable interest rate.
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LMBO. Wow, Night Train, great retort. What does this have to do with the Little Memphis Blues Orchestra?
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Once again LMBO!
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Thomas cites Dostoevsky: “Nothing is easier than denouncing the evildoer; nothing more difficult than understanding him.”
Yet when some suggest we consider what motivates terrorists, they are roundly denounced as sympathizers and appeasers — and by the likes of guys like Thomas.
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