The church of the practical atheist
I was lamenting with a pastor friend about the decline of Christian spiritual discipline. The Church fathers embraced fasting, silence, vigils, and alms-giving with zeal. They prayed for hours at a time. They devoured whatever Holy Scriptures they could obtain. They enjoyed corporate worship—where they were free from vigorous persecution—several times a week.
We’ve lost that. Many of us are too busy to pray even half an hour when rising and retiring. We’re surrounded by music and television and talk radio. We think fasting is going without lunch, or maybe food altogether for a slender 24 hours. When we keep a vigil, likely as not it’s because one of our kids has an earache.
Many of us console ourselves with the notion that these are works, and that not practicing them is its own form of righteousness. We’re saved by grace through faith, after all. Let the Catholics and the rest of them go without meat on Fridays and dab their foreheads with ashes. We’re operating at a whole different level of spiritual growth.
But even the staunchest anti-Catholic Reformers practiced spiritual discipline. They understood (as do, incidentally, most Catholic and Orthodox Christians I know) that we don’t gain entrance to heaven by virtue of our works. The spiritual disciplines are instead a gift from the Lord, that we might labor in some and partake sweetly of others, and draw near—by virtue of His grace—to the Living God.
And here’s the irony—when we forsake the spiritual disciplines and only gather corporately for 90 minutes a week, we roll into church on Sunday desperately hungry, expecting our pastor to feed us. Having abandoned nearly all serious effort to commune with God during the week, we behave exactly like the caricature of the medieval Catholic who believed his priest was the mediator between him and God.
It’s too much for any one man to bear. A pastor can’t “feed” us in that brief time slot on Sunday morning. He wasn’t ordained to do so. Yet how many people do we know who grumble about how the minister’s sermon wasn’t “uplifting” enough, or how they don’t feel “fed” in this or that church, or how they’re looking for a place where the preaching “speaks” to them?
Here’s a bold idea: If a person isn’t spending more than a few minutes a day in prayer and Bible reading, and can’t remember the last time he fasted, kept silence, or poured himself out for someone in need, then there is no sermonizing in the world that is going to fill him, because he is living—for all practical purposes—as an atheist.
So he blames his pastor. And then the church shopping begins, as he looks for that special speaker who can tickle his fancy, bring a tear to his eye, give him the illusion that he is really “connecting” to something.
I’m increasingly convinced that a good portion of the dissent and malaise we find in churches could be solved if more of us would shut our cakeholes and zealously pray for an hour each day. I believe many in the Emergent Church are right that we need more action in the face of social problems, but as Simeon the Theologian observed, a man who is grounded first in spiritual discipline will find it easy to do physical works, whereas a man who neglects the spirit for the sake of works “is like someone who holds in his hands tools and materials to build something but does not know how to go about it.”
And what are we to make of the manner in which infidels shame us with their zealotry? Consider how devout Muslims prostrate themselves several times a day. How Mormons almost without exception devote two years to missionary work. How Buddhists pour themselves into meditation. They are all of them captive to deceit, but what does it say of Christians, who are living in the light of truth, that so many of us don’t even come close to their level of commitment? I can’t presume to know the mind of God, but I’m struck by the spiritual laziness He must see in so many of us, and perhaps in me most of all.
Holy God, Holy and Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.




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back to top52 Comments to “The church of the practical atheist”
What does it say about us? That we don’t realize the battle we are in. Maybe the first prayer should be to have our eyes opened to that reality.
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Tony, be careful cuz you sound like you’re affirming a works-based faith which is what the Mormons, Buddhists, Shia/Sunni all have signed on for.
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Well said, Tony, thank you.
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Not works Sawgunner, but passion and gratitude should drive us to pursue our relationship with Christ with such abandon.
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Sorry, that should have been “not works-righteousness”
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Sawgunner #2-
See Tony’s article: “But even the staunchest anti-Catholic Reformers practiced spiritual discipline. They understood (as do, incidentally, most Catholic and Orthodox Christians I know) that we don’t gain entrance to heaven by virtue of our works.” That’s no affirmation of a works-based faith.
Questions for y’all, though: Why should we practice spiritual disciplines– and what good are they– if we buy into either eternal security or predestination?
– Jonny
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Jonny #6-
If a man loves his wife (or a wife loves her husband) unconditionally, why should she cook nice meals for him, iron his clothes, give her body freely, and laugh at his terrible jokes? (And why should he buy her flowers, take her out to nice restaurants, write her poems, give his body freely, etc.)
Forgive the gender generalizations, but when we love someone we desire to make them happy because it makes us happy– even when it’s hard work.
This is a fantastic post. We must always, always emphasize the great grace of God but also the costliness of this grace– it cost Jesus His life and we trade in our lives for His when we trust in Him for salvation. Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote very strongly about this in his book The Cost of Discipleship:
Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.
Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man’ will gladly go and self all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.
Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.
Costly grace is the sanctuary of God; it has to be protected from the world, and not thrown to the dogs. It is therefore the living word, the Word of God, which he speaks as it pleases him. Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus. It comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
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Jonny,
Our relationship with Christ is not just about salvation. It is a living working relationship where we are becoming more like Him as He works in us. Some of the tools He uses are the spiritual disciplines such as: Bible reading, prayer, fellowship of believers, meditation of His word, fasting. They all serve to enhance our lives here, making us more like Him and more available to His purposes of sharing the Good News with others. I am not a faster, though perhaps I ought to do something about that. I am told it is very beneficial.
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Jonny: We are in a spiritual battle while we are still living. The devil would love to see us fruitless and helpless. He loves to destroy and/or deface what God has created. Even more, he wants to keep others from knowing the joy of salvation.
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Great post, and good insight MLTW. Perhaps if we read Bonhoffer more and listened to Christian music less, we’d be better able to gnaw at the meat of spiritual challenges.
When people come to me with problems, I like to ask, “What answer do you get when you pray?”
My husband says I’m presumptuous when I ask that, but really, how can I possibly know how to counsel if they haven’t even bothered to ask God first?
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You brought up much to think about. Thank you, Tony.
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I have heard messages like this all my Christian life. A heavy-handed, “if only all the Christians would get off their lazy butt and do some heavy, laborious, disciplines, then God will stop being ticked off at us and give us some blessings.” The message isn’t completely off, but let me give a few observations of how I have seen it play out over the years.
1. It ignores the fact that more “disciplined” saints of centuries past did not live in the complex, demanding society we lived in. Spending long hours in Bible reading was easier because there was less societal competition for time. I realize this is not an excuse, but it needs to be at least acknowledged.
2. Such a message given in this way often gets two kinds of responses. First from those who will “amen” the message looking down at others who aren’t as disciplined as they are and being very self-satisfied with their own disciplines. Second from the guilty who immediately try to get up at 4 AM to read their Bible and pray for two hours and reciting the church prayer list for another two hours and fast for two days and eventually get burned out. Then they’re guilty because they are not good enough to do the things God wants.
3. Harping on the laziness of Christians is ineffective. Reminds me of a doctor I know who is losing patients because he suddenly demands they give up desserts, fats, and eat vegetarian. No doubt it is the better way to go, but people need someone to model and teach how to get from here to there, not a rap across the head. Nurturing change and new habits takes lots of time and patience.
4. The pastor in the piece who it is claimed everyone looks to for mediation is probably more to blame than the congregation. How many pastors would give up that ninety minutes on Sunday before a congregation of 1,000 in order to devote himself to 5-10 people in a tight-nit community modeling for them how to find pleasure in spiritual disciplines on a daily basis? Very little do you find those willing to give up the mass-ministry for the intimate discipleship of a few. This is where spiritual disciplines are learned, not harping at people for being lazy.
In fairness, this message is not completely off in its intent. However, it just provides no solution. No path to walk on. No plan of how to turn things around. Just ranting about how lazy everybody is and how God is ticked off.
So how do we get from here to there? Is anyone willing to chuck the whole mass-feed-me-church thing and develop spiritual disciplines with a small intimate fellowship realizing that this process will take a very long time? Anything out there that is doing that?
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Thanks for the post Tony. This dovetails with some things I have been thinking of lately.
No doubt there are people who have been involved with teaching and practicing ‘spiritual disciplines’ for a long time in various churches. But in the churches I grew up in prayer, Bible reading, church attendance, church work (usually volunteer) and some fasting were considered the practices for spiritual growth, development and service. It wasn’t until I was much older that a Congregational minister with close ties to a Jesuit monastery introduced me to the concept of ‘spiritual disciplines’ as such. It made a big difference in the way I understood the practices I had been taught, by putting them into historical context and giving a more concrete expression to what it is they were meant to produce. It also expanded my understanding of what activities can be considered spiritual disciplines. Dallas Willard’s, Spirit of the Disciplines is an excellent book on the subject.
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Outdeep,
I don’t question your desire for fellowship as you try to walk a path of spiritual disciplines. One of the things I wish I’d stressed more in this essay is that there are likely deleterious consequences to the trend in so many churches toward a Sunday-only gathering.
I have to take issue with your claim that the early Fathers lived a less demanding life, thus affording them more time for spiritual discipline. Understand that they lived, first of all, in a subsistence economy, such that gaining and preparing daily bread was a laborous enterprise. Far more important, they faced persecution, torture, and death. It’s seems laughable to suggest that their “simpler” lives explain their greater spiritual discipline.
Also, though I understand your desire to have mentoring, the Church has always taught (no matter your sect) that we should look to the lives of the saints (however you want to define that) for guidance about how to strive. It doesn’t feel as “real” as having an older guide right there beside you, but it can be useful.
Most important, please don’t view what I’ve written as a call to wear yourself down. The spiritual discplines should help us draw closer to God, not destroy our spirit.
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Dh and I are resting as we begin participating in the spiritual disciplines of the ancient church. We see them not as a way to gain God’s favor, but as a way to know and communicate with Him in our daily lives. As Tony said and Jonny quoted, “But even the staunchest anti-Catholic Reformers practiced spiritual discipline. They understood (as do, incidentally, most Catholic and Orthodox Christians I know) that we don’t gain entrance to heaven by virtue of our works.”
Is this something of what you were saying DJ, the difference you discovered?
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Tony,
Realize I spent twelve years in an abusive church (left in 1990) where “beat the sheep” was commonplace so forgive me if I projected too much my experience with what you were trying to say.
What I was trying to get at about the simpler life (and clearly overstated) was this: I was reacting to the admonition I heard many times in that church about how “John Bunyon (or maybe his father) got up at 4 AM every day and read through the Bible three time a year” or something like that. I would feel guilty, set the clock early until over time I was too exausted to work.
I finally realized that said person got up so early because they didn’t have electricity at night and went to bed early when the sun went down – maybe as early as 6 PM. Plus reading the Bible through several times was probably more commonplace as they probably didn’t own many (or any) other books, have television, internet, kids events, etc. That was my only point about societal distractions.
I certainly agree that to suggest that these people had no problems, stress, or interruptions is (as you pointed out) is laughable.
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Endyblue #17
Yes, ‘resting’ is a very good word to describe my experience with the spiritual disciplines. And that is a stark contrast to the stress that I used to feel. Like many others, I found myself trying harder and harder, and taking on more and more responsibilities. Ironically, understanding more about the nature of spiritual disciplines and their purposes actually made it easier to do them—and without all the guilt that can accompany perceived failure. It may not be that way for everyone, but that’s how it’s been for me.
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The interesting thing to me, DJ, is that for *me* I didn’t ever really develop the habits that I was told “good” Christians should have — daily quiet time, praying with my spouse , systematic Bible memorization (complete with index cards), etc. All fine things, to be sure, but honestly not things commanded of us in the Scriptures, at least not in the way we typically understand them. I felt guilty for not doing these things — but it still didn’t change me.
Now that we’re committed to the church we’ve just started attending, we find ourselves MORE active because of its weekly rhythms (vespers, orthros, divine liturgy, a weekly meal together, etc.). We’re also more regular in praying the “evening prayer” before bed at night than we were when just “winging” it. And we find ourselves MORE relaxed and rested and peaceful and thoughtful and humble. We think its because we’re experiencing God through these things, not just learning about Him and understanding Him with our minds.
It’s been wonderful.
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Victoria,
#13
You raise a good question about where one sees these spiritually deprived Christians. I was having trouble finding Tony’s reference to those folks lacking in spiritual discipline being those who were devout. I would imagine that the devout who practice the spiritual disciplines are not feeling deprived and probably standout as devout. But perhaps I misunderstood you.
Anyway, as I read your query and your concern that – if Tony is seeing these people then he needs to take it to his church – I was immediately reminded of the Joel Osteen performance I have encountered a few times. I feel immensely sad when I look into the faces of his audience. Now I could be wrong, but these folks don’r strike me as spiritually disciplined. I suppose it’s because they are willing partakers of what sounds to me like a pep talk with some name it – claim it verbiage.
I keep wondering what’s going to happen to them when what they are hearing/believing doesn’t work and their lives are still tough. I wonder what they will fall back on when what they hear in this “church” just doesn’t offer rest or peace. Since they go to ‘church’ I bet they call themselves Christians and see themselves as being the same as you and I. But I think that maybe ‘these’ are some of the christians Tony is referring to.
Now, if this fellow has thousands following him, and he doesn’t really preach or teach the Bible then it must be a teaching that many want to hear. So, I can easily imagine there are many folks going to other churches with a similar leaning. I imagine many of us have encountered, from other churches, folks who seem, well, what I look like in comparison to Mother Teresa, or Paul for that matter. I think he called us babes. I’m just not ready to say that everyone who calls themselves Christian is a Christian or that all those calling themselves Christians are spiritually devout. I think those where the folks Tony was referring to.
On the other hand I try to read all critical thinking of the body the same way I read the book of Hosea. By this I mean that I put myself in the place of the “sinner” and ponder how do I betray God, or another? Asking myself, what does this thing look like in my life? So in this case, it feels right to me to wonder how DOES this depict me, or how do I neglect the spiritual disciplines, how am I lazy? I just assume that my continued presence on this earth is proof that I am still in the sanctification process and therefore something in this criticism is true about me, even if I have to take the specific idea backwards to the general sins of choosing something over God, or delving into what I am still blind to that I can not discern.
Just a thought. Blessings.
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The Church fathers embraced fasting, silence, vigils, and alms-giving with zeal.
That was like way before the internet.
But I’m all for evangelicals embracing silence in particular. Yes. Lots of silence!!
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That Girl
Joel Olsteen is another subject – I don’t think it had anything to do with what Tony wrote, certainly not my post, or what I was trying to convey – I rarely watch Joel Olsteen, — I did maybe once or twice but that’s all – I turned on Larry King the other night and his guest was Olsteen and his wife Victoria, I turned it off –
My comments still stand – We need to take care that we have our own lives in line, that we are doing what the LORD would have us do – it’s a good idea to start with ones own church first and then branch out – it’s easy to make a blanket statement which encompasses just about every and any church in the US, or the world –
One can sermonize the blog as Tony did, but I asked him a solid question about his own church, which still has yet to be answered.
If you read my post #13 over again, – reading what I quoted from Tony, and then read my response you will then have a better idea of what I was saying -
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Tony, superb example of iron sharpening iron. Thanks for pouring your soul into that one, sir.
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Maybe less time posting on line and more time praying?
Disregard this message, as it comes from one who does not see the point of prayer to a non existent entity.
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Random – Yeah, prayer to a non-existent deity would be pretty silly. That’s why I pray to the God Who Is!
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MLTW- 7
“Forgive the gender generalizations, but when we love someone we desire to make them happy because it makes us happy– even when it’s hard work.”
Are you suggesting that we engage in “spiritual disciplines” to make God happy?
Mumsee- 8
If we are either (a) saved and never going to lose it or (b) predestined for one end or another and have no choice in the matter, I’m not sure that I’m too motivated to make life harder on myself than it already is if I’m going to be made perfect in the end, anyway– “crowns” and differences in reward (that we’re not going to care about, either) aside.
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Tony,
It might be an interesting experiment if your pastor friend would “shut his cakehole” for the rest of the year and devote that hour or so on Sunday of “church” to nothing but corporate prayer. My bet is that the church shoppers would be out in force by January . . .
– Jonny
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“3. Harping on the laziness of Christians is ineffective. Reminds me of a doctor I know who is losing patients because he suddenly demands they give up desserts, fats, and eat vegetarian. No doubt it is the better way to go, but people need someone to model and teach how to get from here to there, not a rap across the head. Nurturing change and new habits takes lots of time and patience.
4. The pastor in the piece who it is claimed everyone looks to for mediation is probably more to blame than the congregation. How many pastors would give up that ninety minutes on Sunday before a congregation of 1,000 in order to devote himself to 5-10 people in a tight-nit community modeling for them how to find pleasure in spiritual disciplines on a daily basis? Very little do you find those willing to give up the mass-ministry for the intimate discipleship of a few. This is where spiritual disciplines are learned, not harping at people for being lazy.”
Thank you!!!
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One of the problems today is the treating of ministers of God with a lack of respect. I realize that Jonny was sort of making a sarcastic joke with a point. However, wives are told to respect their husbands regardless of whether their husbands are deserving of respect.
Many ministers go to graduate school to obtain a degree and dutifully spend hours during their week devoted to their work.
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#28
14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? Romans 10:14
As Kay pointed out, pastors/preachers of the true Gospel should be respected, and if they are false teachers, they should be removed. Denigrating the office of pastor is inappropriate.
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A fine, nourishing article.
As to why do it? Because some things can only be cast out with prayer and fasting.
Or another metaphor.
I want to paint. but my first paintings are nothing like the image, the possibility I have in my head. Between what I see as the possibility for me, and the works of my hand lies the path of practice.
And one other aspect: this dying to the self is one of the real challenges we have. I don’t want to die, or surrender this ego of mine; yet, if I am honest this is the one thing that repeatedly gets in the way of doing good for my neighbors, for speaking and writing right, and not to mention properly discerning.
Why do it? so that I may love others better, and know God’s love more today.
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Jonny #27,
I think it’s the pretty clear teaching of the Bible that God delights to have us fellowship with Him and worship Him. He wants us to come to Him to confess, repent, pray, and obey (Ps. 51:17). He also longs to bless us (Is. 30:18) and for us to enjoy His blessing. He wants us to live a life of abundance in Him, trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus and continually becoming more like Him. So yes– when we practice spiritual disciplines, we bring joy to God and commune in love with Him. And as we practice these things, we nurture the love we have for Him even more and experience His love for us more deeply.
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Harris- I think you nailed it.
All- please note the quotes around my “cakehole” comment . . . which was drawn from the writings of a much finer writer and person than I’ll ever be. Didn’t mean to cause offense, at all.
Now, I’m gonna’ shut my piehole.
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Opening piehole (again), probably inserting foot . . .
MLTW,
You’ve proposed a causal connection (which I’m not saying I agree with), but I don’t think you’ve offered a reason “why” if you’re a believer in eternal security or predestination. Harris doesn’t either, BTW, but it seems that he wasn’t responding to my query.
Closing trap for now.
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OUTDEEP . . . more “disciplined” saints of centuries past did not live in the complex, demanding society we lived in. Spending long hours in Bible reading was easier because there was less societal competition for time.
Unlike Tony I think OUTDEEP makes a valid point. The religious of former centuries were more disciplined in their exercises because society was organized to make it possible — and obligatory. It took many serfs laboring under the weather from dark to dark and huddled in hovels outside the walls of the monastery to sustain one angelic doctor. Nevertheless, the rigor of the life was awesome. You can compare the training of a theologian from early childhood up to 35 years of age with that of any profession today.
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Scroop,
I was speaking of the early Church fathers, in the period 50-550 A.D. Your observation holds for theologians during the Medieval period in Europe.
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Jonny #36,
I don’t exactly see the connection you’re trying to make about eternal security or predestination. I am a very strong believer in both, and both make me want to know, love, and serve God even more for His great goodness. You’ll have to explain what exactly you felt was missing from what I said before, because I’m really not sure what you’re getting at.
thanks!
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Medieval schools and monasteries had precursors in antiquity, so I think OUTDEEP’s point applies there too. Christian discipline has always been associated with special calling, withdrawal, extreme conditions, and celibacy, even in the New Testament.
the Church Fathers were nearly all bishops who got support for their disciplines. The Church Father who most closely fits the model you seem to have in mind is Tertullian who is thought to have worked as a lawyer before becoming a Christian apologist. Clement of Alexandria and others were employed as teachers in religious schools.
Other Christians escaped into the wilderness to live as hermits, an alternative that’s available today to millionaires with good architects.
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Scroop,
Sorry, but I’m not buying the notion that people who had no indoor plumbing, medical or dental care, reliable food supply or ready access to clean water, and who suffered these deprivations under the very present threat of physical persecution and murder, somehow found it more convenient to practice spiritual discipline. Nor am I buying the notion that it was only the select few early Christians who led lives of significant prayer, fasting, and so on.
And to be clear, I’m not advocating that every Christian live the life of a hermit. I am suggesting that when we choose a few minutes per day in prayer (if that), and no fasting, personal alsmgiving, etc., it is not because we are too busy scratching out a living. Rather, it’s because we are choosing a variety of other comforts that are readily available even to the very poor in our society.
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MLTW #39,
If salvation is available and not subject to undoing as a result of either (or both):
1. Mental asset (”Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thoug shalt be saved . . . .); or
2. God’s election (Those He foreknew, He predestined . . . .);
Then, whether the person who has appropriated (or been given) that salvation does anything spiritually profitable or not thereafter is completely beside the point.
Further, if I understand salvation as ultimately going to heaven, rather than to hell, and that we will be made perfect in heaven, then the person who has appropriated (or been given) salvation is going to, in the end run, be made perfect. Again, a life of wild abandon after appropriation (or grant) of salvation, would be inconsequential. Keep in mind, here, that I am positing the person who believed and not just the one who pretended to believe; of course, the elect have no choice in the matter, so we don’t have to make a similar supposition about them.
– Jonny
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Actually, the real reason I’m on this thread is that, except for the last sentence of your post, you seemed to me to be untaught by the lessons that spiritual discipline is supposed to teach.
You’re correct that Evangelicals are disconnected to the historical experience of spiritual discipline, including their own traditions in pietism. Half the time, Evangelicals talk up the joys of the”quiet time,” the other half they scold themselves for not performing. As a result, the notion of spiritual discipline becomes nothing more than a stick that authoritarians use to threaten them.
Could you admit this is merely a difference in temperament? Are you just the kind of person who believes in doing something every day that you don’t want to do, just to force yourself? That’s less uncommon than you may realize. William Blake could free you from this form of bondage — maybe he has, and you don’t know it!
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Jonny,
I think I understand what you’re saying now a little better. John Piper over at Desiring God has said far better things about this, so let me first recommend him highly. But I will say this:
There is no way that someone living a life of wild abandon can know that they have truly been granted salvation by predestination, since the only way to know for certain that you’re among the elect is to experience the transformation of the Holy Spirit resulting in a life of charity, service, worship, and community.
Mental assent of salvation is as indicative of salvation as marriage vows are of actually being in a covenant relationship. It’s a big step– the first step. But belief in Jesus is far more than mental assent; if you’ve been taught this then I am sorry.
If someone genuinely believes as you posit, then they will genuinely be transformed by the Holy Spirit and seek to live a life on earth that is reflective of a heart that loves Jesus and obeys His commands. Someone with an attitude that doesn’t care about this world is most likely not a true believer, because God very clearly cares about this world. N.T. Wright talks about this quite beautifully and convincingly.
I hope that is helpful. Here and here are more specific thoughts on the subject.
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Here and now’s not the place do debate election (I did ask the question, didn’t I?), but I’ve got to tell you that I could barely get past Piper’s opener: “Since loving God is the evidence that he loves you with electing love . . .” Honestly, I can’t tell you that I love God. I can tell you that I try to love God and that I want to want to love God. But I’m not sure that, deep down in my soul, I can tell you that I love God. If I did, I would never sin because I would always prefer His choices over my own. Guess I’m just not loved with an electing love. But I’ll have to remember to distinguish for my kids tonight, when I tuck them in, whether when I say that I love them, I’m loving them with an electing love or a non-electing love.
With that out of my veggie-hole, let me see if I can summarize:
(1) It’s somehow important to know that you’ve been predestined for salvation and you can’t do that unless you experience a life of charity, service, worship, and community. If I’m predestined, why do I care whether I know it or not? If I’m going to heaven, I’ve got all the incentive to live a dissolute life here. If I’m going to hell, I’ve got no incentive to “be good,” so why not live a dissolute life.
(2) “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” is clear enough for most. If it’s anything more, you’re preaching salvation by works, brother, and you’ll get hammered, here. Oh, wait, isn’t assent something I DO? Most pass that on by. Belief is the touchstone of most Protestant Christianity. If my belief cements my salvation and I have real belief at that point in time, my life can reach a point at which it goes completely dissolute and I’ll still make it to heaven (I’m not saying that I plan to live a dissolute life at the time I believe– I would agree that wouldn’t be real belief).
– Jonny
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Jonny,
Your response was incredibly confusing. I have no idea what you are trying to say– some parts of your comment were clearly sarcastic but I couldn’t tell if that was all, some, or maybe none of what you said. Are you trying to expose supposed flaws in the doctrines of predestination, eternal security, and costly grace with rhetorical questions, or did you have a genuine question about them?
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#45
Jonny,
I didn’t find your comments all that confusing (unless I’m misunderstanding your response to MLTW), so I’ll take a stab at responding.
If you (generic you, not you Jonny) are predestined, and have come to faith in Jesus, a transformation has taken place inside of you. You do care about knowing you are saved, and you have no desire to live a dissolute life. If the idea of living a dissolute life and still being able to go to heaven appeals to you, then no transformation has taken place and you have not come to faith in Jesus. (It’s possible that you are still predestined but haven’t come to faith yet, but there is no reason to think that is the case.)
Equating belief with intellectual assent is a common misunderstanding among Protestants, I think. Intellectual assent doesn’t save anyone. The kind of faith that saves is better described as trust than by our English word belief. And trust involves commitment. You can’t trust a leader but at the same time be unwilling to follow his lead.
I don’t think it’s very meaningful to try to separate the trusting from the doing. There’s a sense in which everything we are able to do is a gift from God, but that doesn’t mean we’re not doing something. If what we’re doing leads to feelings of superiority and boasting, it’s “works” in a bad sense. If we know what we’re doing can never even begin to repay God for all He has done for us, but we want to do it because it’s right and we want to please Him, it’s a good kind of “works.”
I struggle myself with whether I can really say I love God. I wouldn’t say, though, that “if I did, I would never sin because I would always prefer His choices over my own.” I love my husband and my sons, but my love for them is imperfect and sometimes I fail to love them as I should. I find it harder to say I love God, because I don’t have the feelings of affection that I do for my family, and it’s harder to think in terms of wanting to spend time with Him because I can’t see Him, hear Him, know what He’s thinking or feeling about me. But I do have feelings of gratitude, and a desire to please Him and to know Him better.
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“If I’m predestined, why do I care whether I know it or not? If I’m going to heaven, I’ve got all the incentive to live a dissolute life here.”
Grace is sufficient.
Romans 6:1,2:
1What shall we say then?(A) Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can(B) we who died to sin still live in it?
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“Oh, wait, isn’t assent something I DO?”
I agree with you. Believing doesnt make you christian, you believe because you are a christian. A christian is one set free from the chains of sin by the blood of Christ.
John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever;(BH) the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
But once again, grace is sufficient, you have no excuse to live a disolute life.
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Pauline – I agree with your comment. You pointed out that the word “believe” is much more than intellectual assent. I like how the Amplified Bible translates “believe” – “to trust in, cling to, & rely on.”
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Pauline/Karen/Thorn/MLTW,
Thanks for the clarification on the mental assent issue. I was raised in a thoroughly Protestant way in which mental assent was the key to salvation, so, although I don’t disagree with your interpretation of the word “believe,” my question was really addressing eternal security gained via mental assent (you’ve heard “If you can’t remember ‘the moment’ you asked Jesus into your heart, you’ve never been saved” comments?). However, if you’re a believer in eternal security (which my original question was addressing), when, then, does one’s salvation become appropriated? This question doesn’t apply to the other category of folks about whom I was inquiring– the predestinationalists– because their salvation would be assured from before all time. Just curious. Thanks.
– Jonny
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Jonny,
I’d say its at the moment of justification. Justification is the moment in which Christ’s righteousness is imputed to you. It coincides with a heart that accepts Christ, because the Holy Spirit is obviously at work in you. It happens at a different point in time for every christian.
Thats even for the predestinationalist as you mention. The “elect” were not justified before time. Salvation is assured in God’s sovereignty for his people, but the moment at which it is applied during one’s life on earth, is justification.
Does that help with your question?
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