I’d say its at the moment of justification. Justification is the moment in which Christ’s righteousness is imputed to you. It coincides with a heart that accepts Christ, because the Holy Spirit is obviously at work in you. It happens at a different point in time for every christian.

Thats even for the predestinationalist as you mention. The “elect” were not justified before time. Salvation is assured in God’s sovereignty for his people, but the moment at which it is applied during one’s life on earth, is justification.

Does that help with your question?

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I agree with you. Believing doesnt make you christian, you believe because you are a christian. A christian is one set free from the chains of sin by the blood of Christ.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever;(BH) the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

But once again, grace is sufficient, you have no excuse to live a disolute life.

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Grace is sufficient.
Romans 6:1,2:
1What shall we say then?(A) Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can(B) we who died to sin still live in it?

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If you (generic you, not you Jonny) are predestined, and have come to faith in Jesus, a transformation has taken place inside of you. You do care about knowing you are saved, and you have no desire to live a dissolute life. If the idea of living a dissolute life and still being able to go to heaven appeals to you, then no transformation has taken place and you have not come to faith in Jesus. (It’s possible that you are still predestined but haven’t come to faith yet, but there is no reason to think that is the case.)

Equating belief with intellectual assent is a common misunderstanding among Protestants, I think. Intellectual assent doesn’t save anyone. The kind of faith that saves is better described as trust than by our English word belief. And trust involves commitment. You can’t trust a leader but at the same time be unwilling to follow his lead.

I don’t think it’s very meaningful to try to separate the trusting from the doing. There’s a sense in which everything we are able to do is a gift from God, but that doesn’t mean we’re not doing something. If what we’re doing leads to feelings of superiority and boasting, it’s “works” in a bad sense. If we know what we’re doing can never even begin to repay God for all He has done for us, but we want to do it because it’s right and we want to please Him, it’s a good kind of “works.”

I struggle myself with whether I can really say I love God. I wouldn’t say, though, that “if I did, I would never sin because I would always prefer His choices over my own.” I love my husband and my sons, but my love for them is imperfect and sometimes I fail to love them as I should. I find it harder to say I love God, because I don’t have the feelings of affection that I do for my family, and it’s harder to think in terms of wanting to spend time with Him because I can’t see Him, hear Him, know what He’s thinking or feeling about me. But I do have feelings of gratitude, and a desire to please Him and to know Him better.

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Your response was incredibly confusing. I have no idea what you are trying to say– some parts of your comment were clearly sarcastic but I couldn’t tell if that was all, some, or maybe none of what you said. Are you trying to expose supposed flaws in the doctrines of predestination, eternal security, and costly grace with rhetorical questions, or did you have a genuine question about them?

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With that out of my veggie-hole, let me see if I can summarize:
(1) It’s somehow important to know that you’ve been predestined for salvation and you can’t do that unless you experience a life of charity, service, worship, and community. If I’m predestined, why do I care whether I know it or not? If I’m going to heaven, I’ve got all the incentive to live a dissolute life here. If I’m going to hell, I’ve got no incentive to “be good,” so why not live a dissolute life.
(2) “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” is clear enough for most. If it’s anything more, you’re preaching salvation by works, brother, and you’ll get hammered, here. Oh, wait, isn’t assent something I DO? Most pass that on by. Belief is the touchstone of most Protestant Christianity. If my belief cements my salvation and I have real belief at that point in time, my life can reach a point at which it goes completely dissolute and I’ll still make it to heaven (I’m not saying that I plan to live a dissolute life at the time I believe– I would agree that wouldn’t be real belief).

– Jonny

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I think I understand what you’re saying now a little better. John Piper over at Desiring God has said far better things about this, so let me first recommend him highly. But I will say this:

There is no way that someone living a life of wild abandon can know that they have truly been granted salvation by predestination, since the only way to know for certain that you’re among the elect is to experience the transformation of the Holy Spirit resulting in a life of charity, service, worship, and community.

Mental assent of salvation is as indicative of salvation as marriage vows are of actually being in a covenant relationship. It’s a big step– the first step. But belief in Jesus is far more than mental assent; if you’ve been taught this then I am sorry.

If someone genuinely believes as you posit, then they will genuinely be transformed by the Holy Spirit and seek to live a life on earth that is reflective of a heart that loves Jesus and obeys His commands. Someone with an attitude that doesn’t care about this world is most likely not a true believer, because God very clearly cares about this world. N.T. Wright talks about this quite beautifully and convincingly.

I hope that is helpful. Here and here are more specific thoughts on the subject.

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You’re correct that Evangelicals are disconnected to the historical experience of spiritual discipline, including their own traditions in pietism. Half the time, Evangelicals talk up the joys of the”quiet time,” the other half they scold themselves for not performing. As a result, the notion of spiritual discipline becomes nothing more than a stick that authoritarians use to threaten them.

Could you admit this is merely a difference in temperament? Are you just the kind of person who believes in doing something every day that you don’t want to do, just to force yourself? That’s less uncommon than you may realize. William Blake could free you from this form of bondage — maybe he has, and you don’t know it!

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