The church Jesus left
Churches tend to be perfectly nice places avoided by a good many people. This can be problematic when some of those people are Christians. I have a love-hate relationship with churches. When I was little I sometimes got dragged to them. I didn’t fit in, the lectures didn’t make sense, and all the talk about hell was scary. When I got older I went to a different church, where hell never came up, but where you could barely feel your pulse. Then I was free and didn’t set foot in church again for a dozen years. So I understand, just a little, why people stay away.
This is hard to hear for the people who like their churches. There’s a sense that if people are disconnected, it’s because of something defective in them. Even though I’ve been harsher than most on the let-my-preacher-do-my-spiritual-heavy-lifting-for-me school of modern churchgoing, I think a person can practice spiritual disciplines and still remain disconnected from church. I’m not alone in believing that something has gone amiss in how many of us “do” church.
This is why I’ve been reading with interest my friend Ed Chinn’s book Footprints in the Sea, in which he considers what he calls “the disappearance of Jesus” from the modern church. He believes many modern institutions called churches are more man-made than God-made, more man-oriented than God-oriented. “When religion looks up,” he writes, “it is helpful in translating the mysteries of Heaven for those on earth. However, when it only looks around on a horizontal plane, it stops being a response to Heaven and inexorably degenerates into a self-centered, self-serving arrangement.”
The argument I would have once made is that all assemblages of believers are the Church, thus making all their organizations by definition God-made things. It’s the logic that turns the worst of lectures into worship, and labels as praise the reading of announcements before the service. (Though I’m not sure if I buy Ed’s argument completely, that phraseology—”service”—certainly lends itself to the notion of a consumer-oriented institution.)
Ed is certainly a believer in church, but his damning argument is that “the institutional church works feverishly to borrow legitimacy from the timeless church.” And so he stopped going. So have many other Christians. I have trouble mustering sympathy for church shoppers and church quitters whose view is that the Church exists to serve them, but I have considerable empathy for those who yearn, as Chinn does, for a church that is deeply relational, community-oriented, and that facilitates the drawing near to God.
But then, I suspect most people who like their churches believe they do just that. It’s a dilemma, and I want to believe there’s an answer for alienation other than grin and bear it, go shopping for a church that’s more “you,” or reshape churches until they are spiritual equivalents of McDonalds. I find myself in this unstable space, believing more than ever that the Church is something far greater than all of us, yet increasingly convinced that too many churches have become far less than the Church.














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Tony,
“…but I have considerable empathy for those who yearn, as Chinn does, for a church that is deeply relational, community-oriented, and that facilitates the drawing near to God.”
and before this
“And so he (Ed Chinn) stopped going.”
I haven’t read the book and don’t know Mr. Chinn, but it is interesting that he wants the first (quote), but does the second (quote). Having the first takes some work.
I’m not trying to negate his thesis, but perhaps he ought not to give up meeting as Paul suggested.
Mike
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I once read that during a certain time in the old Soviet Union, when people saw a line forming they would immediately get into it. Then they could find out why it was formed. Chances were that something was being sold and, whatever it was, would be something one either needed or could be bartered for something else.
I also read that many former Soviet citizens, who had relocated in the USA, ended up going back, because they could not get used to all the choices they had. I can sometimes sympathize, when I stand before hundreds of different brands of something in a store, let alone all of life’s other decisions.
It was easier when people were blessed to have one church in their area. Then there were two. Now we have many, many churches and we all must make decisions. Some of those decisions are based on shallow things; some on important. There is no one size fits all. At the same time, I pray for unity and that we will drop those things that really are not important, to focus on what is important.
Not all people are made to function in the institutional life of the church. However, all believers are still part of the real church. There is an assembling together that must be done in some way or another.
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“I find myself in this unstable space, believing more than ever that the Church is something far greater than all of us,”
Thank God that it is not just up to us. Thank God that He is a covenant keeping God. I know this does not let us out of our responsibilities to His Church, but I take heart knowing that God is perfect, sovereign and will see that His purposes will come to pass.
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Related to comment #2
Family relationships are ones that take a great deal of work. It is so easy to sin against someone you bump into continually throughout the day. Then there is the confessing of sin and making the relationship right.
When you get into the nitty-gritty of a church that works together, fellowships together, worships together, you are likely to have more opportunities to sin against each other and need to repair relationships. It is easier to have “church” at a distance where you just worship on Sundays and in our great cities, see fellow church members maybe once or twice a week if that. The church is something of an family like community too.
The problem is that we need the community aspect; we need to work together as a church to serve the lost and those in physical need. We need to serve those within our congregations in prayer, meals, teaching etc. It is not easy, it is rather messy, with sin always crouching at the door, but I think that is the sort of work which needs to take place between Sundays.
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We attended a church in San Antonio and loved it. The married couples Sunday School was lotsa new/recent parents. We began ea gathering with praise music accompanied by guitar or keyboard. Lotta good timely stuff rooted in Scripture about marriage and family. There were a few childless couples who left and perhaps their feeling was justified. I liked it most when various men were tasked to teach a lesson (and given adequate support and materials).
We moved to a church further north near Ft Hood. Wow.. what a contrast. A nice fellow came in and more or less read from canned Sunday School text written by a man I don’t know up in Nashville. Quite boring but we stuck there cuz the class leader was a friendly sort.
Now we’re here in La. I’ve found at this point in my life real satisfaction in helping out in my daughter’s Sunday School class. Some of the young males are a bit rambunctious. My self-described role there is CEA or “civility enforcement aide”!!
I think lotsa church-quitters are doing house church. I’m wholly supportive of this trend. House church worship doesnt divide up families. The key to getting folks connected is to offer them roles to connect through. Again, look at churchformen dot org
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God has placed every believer in His Church. The challenge is how to personally fit into His Church in a practical, real way. Every believer is needed by some local group of Christ’s Church. Every believer needs the give and take, the nourishing flow of life found only in a local group of Christs’s Church.
Anybody can find something to criticize in any local church. The question is: “Am I willing to follow God into the local church where He wants me to minister and be ministered to?”
Thanks Tony. This is a HUGE issue for Christians today. By the way, Dave Burchett has great insight into the challenging relationship between Christians and local churches.
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Good for Ed Chinn. Long before I became an apostate former evangelical, I had quit going to church. What a borefest, and one that’s unlike any gathering the early church would have recognized.
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not a modern problem
goes back to Constantine and the legalization of Christianity
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7 – I’m not an apostate, but most of what you say rings very true.
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Of course the early church would not recognize the cultural differences. But they would recognize singing songs of praise to God, teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness, sharing meals together, giving offerings, prayer, encouraging one another, caring for widows and orphans, etc. etc.
As humans we are prone to veer off-track rather than on-track, so we need to constantly reevaluate how well we are tracking with what the Bible says church should be. By God’s grace we do some things right. Thanks to those who are willing to get involved in the awful/wonderful work of being a working part of His Church in thousands of local congregations.
We apologize for how we have hurt some of you. There is no excuse for our callous, sinful behaviors. But please don’t blame God. Ask Him to lead you to a local church where you can help experience and demonstrate what God can make His Church be.
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Has anyone seen the movie “Babette’s Feast?” The church folk portrayed in this French film of the WWII era in I think Norway, are “good” folk, but somewhat prone to pettiness as we all are and the sad thing is the church never grows as the years go by. And yet woven into the story is continuity of friendship. During the feast near the end one sees the friendship through the eyes of Babette as she quietly displays her gratitude to those who took her in during the war.
Sometimes we have to work through the failings of the church, which after all is made up of sinful people, and attend anyway, showing God’s grace to those around us.
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I live in Northern VA, and I have often maintained that there are a lot of “churches” in my town, but not many churches.
I find myself unequally yoked with a fellow believer whose comfort zone resides in an LCMS liturgical setting. Unfortunately, there are only two to choose from, and we have a history with one and left over the unbiblical handling of a major scandal from which that congregation still has not recovered.
In the couple years since the pastor’s retirement, this body is still looking for a pastor. The other church is also a dying church, bleeding members to the aforementioned church.
I personally have no particular denominational loyalty. I ike to say, “I am a Christian who happens to attend a ________ church.”
I am a product of a very liberal mainstream denomination, to which I would never go back.
I liked the General Protestant service at the chapel, but after the laxity of allowing chaplains from cults to practice, I find no home in chapel either.
Churchwise, I am a square peg in a round hole.
I was attending a Bible church, but that was a solo flight for me, outside my DH’s comfort zone.
So what is a serious Christian to do? I study at home, and have Christian friends, I spend Sundays with my DH, and sometimes we have home church, when he is so inclined. Unfortunately, DH and I do not share the same level of commitment either. I don’t push, but it sure is a spiritually lonely place to be.
Most of the other churches in my town are very shallow places, and sometimes I think that is because of where they are in relation to the Beltway. There is a lot os Godlessness in DC and a lot of liberal Christians who find certain sins acceptable, and I have seen members who have been called on their sins just up and move to a more accepting body of believers, rather than dealing with the sin in thir lives.
I think I need a change of scenery, and it does get discouraging sometimes.
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At the church where I serve, we have mostly middle-class Americans but we also have a lot of refugees in our family who escaped a horrific civil war in Africa, and some refugees from other various countries in Africa. They have endured profound tribulation in today’s world.
When people join, I often ask what they were looking for in a church.
The middle-class Americans usually say they were seeking a church with good youth programs, is relationally focused, community-oriented, and has engaging relevant worship services.
Fine.
When I ask an African refugee what they were looking for in a church, they say; one that stands on the word of God and lives by what they stand for. They often want their sins, flaws and weaknesses challenged boldly. They seek a church that raises up Jesus Christ as their Head and respects (and studies) the Bible.
Obviously, when they join, they make us a much stronger and healthier church!
My philosophy is that whatever brings a seeker through our doors is not as important as the hope that they see Jesus inside.
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Tony wrote; “I find myself in this unstable space, believing more than ever that the Church is something far greater than all of us…”
I don’t think so. The church IS the people — the family of believers, not something “greater” than them. I find your notion here a bit strange, Tony, or in your word, unstable. I would like to hear more about what you meant by this.
I could, however, say that the church is something far greater than any one of us on our own.
Tony continued; “…yet increasingly convinced that too many churches have become far less than the Church.”
Tony, please get unconvinced of this. If any church is less than the church, leave it. It’s NOT the church.
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Tony wrote; “I think a person can practice spiritual disciplines and still remain disconnected from church.”
And any ol’ dude can practice medicine too and still remain disconnected from all standards, fellowships and terms for that practice, but that does not mean his practice will be healthy or beneficial.
Actually, most anyone can practice most anything. Authentic Christianity is not just a matter of practicing spiritual disciplines. It is being in a reconciled loving relationship with our Creator and Redeemer and with our fellow redeemees.
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So again, I ask, Joel Mark – What’s a serious Christian in my situation to do?
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Joel is right. If at all possible we have to be a part of a church body and not forsake the gathering together of believers. People go off on all strange tangents when they are not under the protection of a church. I do believe in family, church, and civil government rightly practiced according to the scriptures. Church membership is one of the protections that God gives us. I am not speaking of church membership as in “this is the ticket to heaven”, I mean that living out the Christian life involves being involved in a church body, imperfect or not. It is a means of grace….hearing the word preached, the wine and the bread, baptism. The iron sharpening iron of Bible study, fellowship and friendship.
In college, our Navigator leader constantly warned us of “lone ranger” Christianity. Christianity is meant to be lived out amongst fellow believers together as we witness to the lost.
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Tony,
I do like reading your personal history. Thank you for including this.
Heavy handedness does not win out in the end.
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Klasko,
I don’t ordinarily suggest churches to anyone, but, since you asked, might I suggest the following? http://www.stmaryorthodox.org/
Don’t discount it without giving it a shot. Finding THE Church changed my entire life. This particular Church comes highly recommended. This weekend is Pascha for us– if you’ve never been to an Orthodox Pascha service, do yourself a favor and go.
– Jonny
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I am also in the LCMS by circumstances to complicated to explain.
I ended up there, however, as a result of needing fellowship, not the correct God-in-a-package. I struggle with “I confess by nature that I am sinful and unclean” every week. I am not against confessing personal sins in privacy or in public in needed, but to confess that I am unregenerate (when God calls me a saint) and receive forgiveness each week seems no different than attending a baptistic church and responding to their inviations/pleadings. Each church seems to have its own kind of salvation that it has defined and dispenses to whomever it designates. The church then, in order to maintain dependents, prevents/ignores the growth of these saved ones, except for the offereing plate, that is.
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KAY #11, how good is your Danish? I think you should have turned on the subtitles.
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Thanks for the suggestion, Jonny. I’ll look into it.
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Hi Klasko,
Yes, that’s a very difficult place to be, and needs constant prayer. I wonder what DH’s attitude toward you was while you were attending the Bible church? And what makes him uncomfortable in that setting? It seems that you’ve made the effort to be part of the LCMS setting – has he made the effort to attend a church where you would naturally be more comfortable?
You say that you have Christian friends – do you have opportunity to meet in the form of a small group to experience something of what you’re missing from church?
How far are you from Ashburn? We visited a solid, non-denominational missions-focused church there in the summer of ‘07.
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Why local churches?
Accountability—we might have the tendency to think we’re being really “spiritual” by ourselves. After all, nobody is around to gossip with (or about). You can’t have strife when there’s nobody else to have strife with. But at the same time, who is there to hold you accountable for your actions. Who will call it to your attention when you aren’t treating your spouse right or are spiritually neglecting your kids. Those are blind spots in many of our lives that a corporate body of believers can help with.
Grace in action—local churches are made up of all kinds of people. Many people who we would not select to be part of our circle of friends sit next to us in church. Some people are gruff and harsh. Some are squishy and syrupy—not exactly people you’d call to be part of your foursome on the golf course. We know that Christ died for them, but unless we’re “forced” into a local body of believers with them, we will never love them. In order to love them, we are forced to grow in grace like Jesus calls us to.
Support and encouragement—each of us experience down times. Whether physically or emotionally, each of us need to be occasionally picked up. In addition to picking us up when we’re down, fellow local church members can encourage us to grow in our understanding of the Gospel. I can very easily convince myself that certain things like designated times of focused prayer and purposeful, intentional evangelism aren’t really that important (besides, I witness with my lifestyle—I don’t have to talk about it). But within the local church, I can’t get away with that. There’s always someone who will be on fire for those things I struggle with. They will encourage me to pick up the ball I so badly want to drop.
There are many more reasons for being part of a local body of Bible believing Christians including significant theological reasons, but those are the first that came to my mind. Are those things ideals that are perfectly and completely fulfilled in each local assembly? Of course not, but that’s where grace, accountability, support and encouragement come into play. Remember, each of those things work both ways. As you receive grace from the body (because you ain’t perfect!), you will give grace. As you allow yourself to be held accountable, you will hold others accountable. As you receive support and encouragement, you will give support and encouragement.
Read Ephesians 2:11-22 and as you do, remember that Paul wrote this letter to a local church. The universal Church benefits from it, but the audience is a local body of believers.
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Hi Tychicus –
I don’t know why it’s an uncomfortable setting for him. Probably a little too touchy-feely for him. He went to my church a couple of times. He liked the sound preaching and commented that it would be great of we could get my preacher to convert to the LCMS and preach at his church…
I am currently not meeting regularly for Bible study with others, but I do study on my own. I have been a Bible Teacher trained to do inductive study for years. But I do see my Chrisatian friends individually.
We live in Woodbridge. Ashburn is kind of a commute from here.
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Back in “the day” being a Christian and being part of the one holy, catholic and apostolic church was one and the same. Being part of the church wasn’t optional — it WAS Christianity.
Jonny, we are going to our first Orthodox Pascha services this weekend …. the “mother” church of our mission church is 45 minutes from here. We’re going down tonight for two services, have to come back, and then going back in the morning (Saturday) for tomorrow’s services including the midnight one and the Vespers (I think) and the Agape meal the next day. We’re very excited about spending this weekend in the ancient Orthodox church. Thanks for your words of wisdom in the past on this blog that played a small part in us pursuing Orthodoxy.
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KAY — “Babette’s Feast” is a wonderful text/movie for Tony’s subject. I took it as a story about the members of a disciplined, highly-taught, and sophisticated religious group, a miniature church (Swedenborgians?), and an outsider who brings them an experience that is as revelatory as it is unlikely.
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I think it’s important to pay attention to what God is saying to you, specifically, about your role in whatever church. We attended a Calvary Chapel for four years that nearly drove me mad–literally, I went home angry a lot of the time. I appealed to my husband and he reminded me that if we were missionaries in the deepest jungles of South America, I wouldn’t have fellowship opportunities and teaching opportunities and thus I wouldn’t be complaining.
He also challenged me that we were called to that particular church to serve. We had been Christians a long time by that point, and our role was to provide teaching insights, skills, and prayer support. We weren’t baby Christians anymore, we needed to act as mature believers.
“But what about MY spiritual life?” I wailed.
He told me I was welcome to seek spiritual growth elsewhere, but I needed to attend our church with a servant’s heart.
So, I got my spiritual “meat” at Bible Study Fellowship and from listening to Elisabeth Elliot nail me to the wall nearly every day on her radio program. I grew spiritually, a great deal, because I had to read Scripture and apply it to my own life without the leading of a pastor I personally respected. The Lord met me where I was and we became pretty close.
We were a military family, though, and knew we would only be there four years. I don’t know what I would have done if we had returned to that same location. I don’t believe I could have attended that church again.
Klasko’s problem is not with the LCMS church per se, so much as the particular body near her. We love the LCMS church we currently attend–but we also know we’re here as teachers, encouragers, prayers and support people. I’ve been a Christian 37 years; it’s long time for me to be a minister to the body of Christ wherever he places me.
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Don’t give up, Klasko. I respect your discretions. Just keep looking and praying. When I was a kid, my parents started a house church for a while. There are many options and it takes time to explore them. And there are probably more options out there than you know. My point is that we should not turn away from church or be a lone ranger Christian because of a church’s imperfections or our frustrations. But Jesus Christ must be the Head of any church. If He’s not, that’s more than just an “imperfection.” That means it’s not a church.
I don’t understand ‘LCMH’ or “DH’. Initials don’t often get through to this old man (smile).
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Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Dear husband (where is mine?)
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Scroop Moth, I haven’t seen the movie in at least 10 years. You spurred me on to look up what Wikipedia had to say about it. I had forgotten how fearful they were of the feast. Their strict sect was focused on simplicity and had lost sight of the grace that Christ has gloriously lavished on us. The movie shows us a glimpse of this in the way Babette lavished her friends with the glorious feast.
The church is the bride of Christ. Sunday worship is to be a small taste of the glorious wedding feast which is to be in store for us one day.
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Y’all are sweatin’ this church business way too much. Just do what I did – tune in, turn on, and drop out.
If anyone is interested in taking the first step, let me know, and I’ll compile a reading list that will get you tuned right in.
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I apologize to any Missouri Synod Lutherans out there – I did not mean to imply that I have a problem with the denomination per se. It’s just slim pickins’ here in this locale. Thanks for clarifying that Michelle.
In fact I am looking forward to our upcoming move out of northern VA to a small town in MI, in about a year. The LCMS church in our new hometown is a breath of fresh air when we visit.
Although I do think of myself as a Christian first, and not a member of a denomination first.
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Tony wrote; “I have a love-hate relationship with churches.”
Hang steady, Tony. Let the love part swallow the other, no matter how long it takes!
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28-
“I appealed to my husband and he reminded me that if we were missionaries in the deepest jungles of South America, I wouldn’t have fellowship opportunities and teaching opportunities and thus I wouldn’t be complaining.”
Does this make any sense to you? Next time he complains about something he wants, just tell him it could be worse and if it were, he wouldn’t be complaining. The thing is, you are not just complaining, you are seeking a solution. And to be fair, likely he is powerless IN the situation. You would have to leave to experience the change you seek. But the thing I hate about htat response to you is that you are NOT in the jungle. Do you know how long people have ultimately NOT improved their situations because of this false reality they create? All that is required for evil to thrive is for good people to do nothing. Just keep telling yourself, “what if I lived in the jungle, on the prarie, in the slum?” I wonder if that is the question that God is asking? Or will ask?
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Better yet, next time your husband wants to splurge, hunt with the guys, whatever, tell him that if he lived in the jungle, he would be perfectly contect with his life as is because the jungle doesn’t offer much!
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NIGHT TRAIN. If anyone is interested in taking the first step, I’d advise buying a first-class ticket for the entire journey.
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From wikipedia:
It should be noted that Roger Williams was only briefly a part of the Baptist faith. Williams remained with the little church in Providence only a few months. He became convinced that the ordinances having been lost in the apostasy could not be validly restored without a special divine commission, making the following statement upon his departure from the sect:
There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502.)
He assumed the attitude of a “Seeker” or “Come-outer,” always deeply religious and active in the propagation of Christian truth, yet not feeling satisfied that any body of Christians had all of the marks of the true Church. He continued on friendly terms with the Baptists, being in agreement with them in their rejection of infant baptism as in most other matters.
Williams’s religious and ecclesiastical attitude is well expressed in the following sentences:
The two first principles and foundations of true religion, or worship of the true God in Christ, are repentance from dead works and faith toward God, before the doctrines of baptism or washing and the laying on of hands, which continue the ordinances and practises of worship; the want of which I conceive is the bane of millions of souls in England and all other nations professing to be Christian nations, who are brought by public authority to baptism and fellowship with God in ordinances of worship, before the saving work of repentance and a true turning to Jehovah.
I am not a Christian and very unlikely to become one. I don’t know that Roger Williams had any better “absolute values” than the various people who proclaim theirs around wmb, but I think he had better instincts than most of them preaching around here.
It is a serious question and a seriois problem.
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32 – We just need a different church.
I wanna new church! – tune (I wanna new truck) Huey Louis
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We meaning our family – not we as us on WMB.
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I must be an exception, I have generally been fed and nurtured by the churches I’ve been in and find the one I currently attend to be the best so far, a great benefit to my spiritual life and growth.
Michelle, I spent many years in BSF as well, was a discussion group leader for much of that time — I needed a break from it all a few years ago but have missed it!
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#39….Continuing BIANCA’s theme song “One that won’t make me sick”… Ok I did get sick. It was to be my first Paschal Service in the Orthodox Church. and we had a wedding to go to… needless to say, a few mixed nuts was about all I consumed there, then I managed to not drink anything all afternoon, Then I drove three hours and ate a feast in the middle of the night. I got, pretty sick…. I’m a little more seasoned this year and we don’t have to travel……”One that won’t keep me up all night”… hmmm, there was last night and now tonight… so DOH and DOH!
The Orthodox Church…. the toughest Church you’ll ever love:) Which reminds me of the only motivational speaker I ever heard… in H.S. “We are so easily conditioned” (That is to the commercialization of our airwaves, and perhaps to our mamby-pamby, feel good, go to church on Sunday, read your bible “some”. Enjoy the yearly Easter Drama church experience)
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Wow, what a fantastic topic Tony. I agree with you 100% and many of the posters here. This is a serious subject. I plan to read Chinn’s book.
Phil Yancey wrote a book Soul Survivor about how his faith survived church. He “often felt kicked around, abused, and damaged by the institutional church.” as my family has. I’ve written about it plenty here. Now we’re kind of drifting searching for a church.
My faith is still strong, but so many of my close friends have also dropped out of church. These are true friends for life to whom I can say anything. They feel the same way I do. Is there a church that is striving for unfeigned love of the brethren?
I disagree with those who are seeking a church to make them feel good or minister to them in some way. Christians are to minister, not expect to be ministered unto. I am looking for a church where I can help shoulder the plow.
However, as this topic title suggests, I often wonder where Jesus is in the church? We talk about him, we sing about him, we study the Bible. But where is grace? Jesus was a friend of sinners, but no friend will disown you faster than a church one.
I am NOT looking for a church that makes me feel good. I am looking for a church that is so full of grace that I can be completely transparent and they won’t reject me. Only true friends treat people this way. I can tell my friend anything and they will encourage, advise, etc. This does not mean lowering standards, by the way.
Jesus spoke with the woman at the well and his disciples and all others, knowing everything about them and still accepting them and establishing a lasting friendship. Their sins were all out in the open and he loved them to the point of death. I hope I will never ever forsake a friend for any reason. Church friends will turn their backs instantly if you deviate from the formula.
The problem is that church is so often judgmental and unforgiving. It is shallow, focusing on the outward. I always feel like I’m being sold something. A few songs, pay your money and leave. And if you ever behave differently than the accepted norm, then you’ll be disowned faster than you can sneeze. Church is so often a place of distrust and condemnation of those who don’t conform to man-made guidelines.
Is there a church who will never leave you nor forsake you?
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I am familiar with many churches where Jesus is the center; people are loved; the community is served; the Bible is taught; faithful ministering people are welcome; are not judgmental; etc. etc. Of course none of them do it all perfectly but they are working at it diligently.
There is lots of room for improvement. But some people are too quick to judge a church as unfit. Every believer should find a church they are basically comfortable with, make the commitment to get involved and help make it all that Jesus can make it be.
By all means if you find a perfect church don’t start attending, you will ruin it.
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Reg – Did you read the rest of Michelle’s comment? She focused herself on ministering to others, & took responsibility for her own spiritual growth…
“So, I got my spiritual ‘meat’ at Bible Study Fellowship and from listening to Elisabeth Elliot nail me to the wall nearly every day on her radio program. I grew spiritually, a great deal, because I had to read Scripture and apply it to my own life without the leading of a pastor I personally respected. The Lord met me where I was and we became pretty close.”
Maybe you didn’t like her husband’s argument, but she got his point, & it all turned out for the best for her.
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Klasko – It’s good that you have a good church to look forward to when you move. Maybe in the meantime you can follow what Michelle did (in your own way), & also consider your continued attendance at your current church as a way of being submissive to your husband.
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Xion – Please don’t let your bad experiences with your church make you bitter against churches in general. I believe there are many, many churches that would show you real Christian love & acceptance.
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Having just spent my first Pascha weekend at an Orthodox church, I feel like each and every Christian owes it to themselves — to their Christianity — to learn about this church; this ancient expression of faith that has as existed since the time of Christ. Even if you’re not looking for a new church, just call it a study of church history. That’s a valuable pursuit, right?
WOW, oh wow is all I can say. What a weekend. Oh, and if you can be hosted by one of the priests of the parish — and can have two hours of question/answer with him over breakfast one morning — like we did this a.m. all the better. The priest we spoke with is former Foursquare pastor who worked with Jack Hayford for 32 years. After 20+ years of looking for a “good church” we finally know we’re “home” in the Church.
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I have a friend who was raised in the church (Methodist) and won’t set foot in any church now because of the hypocrites she remembers from her childhood and teen years. But that was probably 40+ years ago. An excuse, whether she realizes it or not (and I’m not sure she’s a believer).
I don’t know, it’s very easy to find the flaws in any church, I think, they are very imperfect because we are imperfect. And often when we find one we love, we become a bit too rose-colored-glasses about it for a while. I had another friend who searched and searched and searched, every time I saw her she was trying out some new church “brand.: She landed briefly in Orthodoxy, thought that was “it,” she’d finally found “the” church. But then last I heard from her, she’d left that and wound up drifting off to a very openly non-Christian cult.
I’ve never considered church attendance or membership as optional. It was set up by Christ to be his visible presence on earth and believers are to be part of it, flawed though it is.
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Doanld Joy’s Two Become One a book on marriage
compare to the teachings of Elizabeth Elliott on same subject
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Reg – Sorry, I don’t have time to read all the books you recommend.
Could you explain the difference between Joy’s book & Elliott’s teachings?
(Hey, that’s kinda funny. The man has a girl’s name for his last name, & the woman has a man’s name for her last name.)
Donna – Many teenagers go through a stage of seeing hypocrisy everywhere (especially where they want to see it). Sounds like that happened to your friend but she didn’t stick around to outgrow it. Sad.
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Years ago I went on a church search- very frustrating until I remembered God’s Word. He says He’ll give us the desires of our heart. I stood on those words and He knew my desire was to find a church and worship Him with fellow believers. He ansered my pray with a small church in the next town. They aren’t perfect but they try to stay true to the Word and when I see the way the churches all around me have lost their first love, I feel blessed.
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it is easier to argue against what I am saying if I summarize and you don’t read the book. Donald Joy is about unity in marriage as opposed to hierachy, which is about that only thing that sounds “right” to conservative Christians today.
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ENDYBLUE #48,
CHRIST IS RISEN! Treasure the memories of your first Great Fast, Holy Week, and Pascha. Welcome home.
– Jonny
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Karen O: It is sad, and she’s basically ignored my invitations to come to church sometime. Her brother, interestingly, grew up to become a Methodist minister, but she told me he’s “learned” not to pester her about going to church.
She definitely believes she’s a Christian, but knows little about the Bible and her refusal to at least give church a try again (my belief is that if one is a Christian, they will be strongly drawn to find a church) leaves me wondering …..
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Reg – I googled Donald Joy. His website didn’t give me any clear view of his positions, but I found an article online that explained a bit.
A small excerpt…
For instance, the Joys pointedly analyze the issue of wifely “submission.” They characterize the proposition that “passive submission” is the scriptural norm for relationships to be “wrongheaded” and not a proper interpretation of St. Paul’s teaching regarding the need to actively and humbly pursue mutual submission patterned upon the sacrificial love of Christ. Moreover, they view it to be an unmitigated evil when this degenerates into the one-sided tyranny of one individual “controlling” another in acts of selfish, ego-gratifying dominance. In contrast throughout their book, they keep pointing the reader back to the central truth that “Christ is the head” of Christian homes.
Well, I am one who does believe that a wife should be submissive to her husband in the biblical way. However, the biblical way describes a submission based on love & respect (from both spouses), & it cannot be forced (true submission is voluntary). The Bible also tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church, to take care of her as he’d take care of his own body, & to treat her with consideration. So any bullying or tyranny is definitely not biblical, but we don’t throw out wifely submission just because some misunderstand & abuse it.
And yes, there is a mutual submission in a marriage, which comes when the husband is loving & being considerate of his wife.
There is also a need for wisdom in submission. Obviously, it is unwise to submit to an abusive husband or a husband who wants the wife to do something illegal or immoral.
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Most believers who sit in a pew every Sunday are still “giving up meeting” because what they do there does not follow what those verses say “meeting” is. Heb. 10:24,25 calls for “spurring one another” and “encouraging one another”. This is two-way communication. The pew/pulpit thing is all one-way communication. They are opposites. If Ed Chinn does the one another thing where ever he does it as the Bible instructs, he’s doing it right.
There is a GREAT song by Buddy Greene on this very point. The words AND music are fabulous. I almost fell out of my chair when I first heard it.
JESUS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING
lyrics and music by Buddy Greene
There’s a big crowd gathered at First Church
They’re dressed up and lookin’ so fine
They lean forward in their pews to hear the good news
And get a handle on God’s design
But outside the need just keeps getting greater
In a sick old world, tired and sore
Back inside they give praise, but God must be amazed
When they don’t look beyond that door. Because…
Jesus has left the building
He’s back out on the street
He’s busy dealing His mercy
To every hurting soul He meets.
He’s out helping the homeless find shelter
He’s out helping the jobless find work
He’s donating His time to the feeble of mind
And for this some people think He’s berserk
But He’s just helping the helpless find justice
And mercy in a cold, cruel world
You see, His heart aches for all kinds of people
For every man, woman, boy, and girl
And that’s why…
Chorus
He meets with His saints on Sunday
To remind us of all He has done
To save us from our place of suffering
To let us know He is the One
Who has shone His light into our darkness
And given us all of His blessings so we
Can be blessings to the ones
Who need to know God’s only Son
Is in the business of setting people free. And, that’s why..
Chorus
Back inside some people just keep on waiting
And prayin’ that He would come down
But Jesus has left the building
He’s out spreading His love all around.
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Tima,
Kinda’ funny and sad tune, but it sets up a false dichotomy, as if God is not present in the church-temple. I agree with you that the pew-pulpit thing is a tragedy if that is ALL that occurs. However, to imply that one-way communication is somehow wrong is to overstate the case. God gives the Church the means to worship Him, and the Church returns the worship. This is two-way communication between God and man. At the same time, there is also Scriptural and traditional precedent for one-way communication between men in teaching and two-way communication between men in encouragement and the building up of each other. To say that two-way communication between men is the proper way to “do church” or that God is to be found only outside the church-temple in the poor, the imprisoned, the widow, etc. is to ignore other important elements of the mission and purpose of the Church.
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We gather to worship God in Word and Sacrament. The church also is to minister to those all around us, to “be Christ to our neighbor” as Luther put it.
It’s not an either-or. It’s both and all of the above. The gospel message goes with us, in all our travels throughout the week.
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Jonny
“it sets up a false dichotomy, as if God is not present in the church-temple.”
This is not a false dichotomy. You have a false understanding of God’s presence in regards to buildings or temples. Have you heard of the phrase from scripture that says “God does not dwell in buildings made with hands.” Acts 7:48 This is from Stephen’s sermon when he was stoned. Are you not familiar with Paul’s teaching that believers are God’s temple, not a building? 1Cor 3.16. Whatever belief you have about church building = God’s house, it is driven totally by tradition and contradicts the scriptures. The new covenant changes everything about any need for a building temple.
“there is also Scriptural and traditional precedent for one-way communication between men in teaching”
I don’t know if you are a protestant or a Catholic, but if you are a protestant, faith is founded on “sola scriptura”, meaning faith is based only on scripture. Tradition has no validity of it’s own. There is no scripture that designates specifically the pulpit/pew dimension and the lecture orientation to teaching /preaching. Institutionalized protestants who no longer have the ability to test and protest bogus traditions accept the tradition that preaching = lecture/ one-way communication. It means no such thing. Only traditions of men drive this assumption – not scripture. “Preach the word in season and out of season” does not mean “lecture the Word…” unless you are driven by tradition. The fact that something has been considered true for a long time, and godly people have considered it true, does not make it true. The Pharisees in Jesus time used this bogus logic as basis for truth, and He called them “white washed sepulchers” and many other things.
“To say that two-way communication between men is the proper way to “do church” … is to ignore other important elements of the mission and purpose of the Church.”
You did not give me any scripture to support this. I’m waiting. There is a ton of scripture on two-way communication. I’ll put it out there if I need to. God is a two-way communication God. He never communicates in one-way communication. He always receives whatever response people give to him and responds back to them.
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TIMA,
As Hank Hanegraaf (sp?) is fond of saying: “A text taken out of context is a pretext for proof-text.”
I am neither Protestant nor Roman Catholic. I don’t buy sola scriptura– it fails on its own principles. I agree regarding lecture-orientation and pulpit/pews (in fact, I personally dislike pews). I am delighted to see you use the terms bogus traditions/traditions of men and leave room open for holy traditions/traditions of God. I think your antagonism toward lecturing drives you to a position that is unwarranted– complete rejection of any lecturing whatsoever; what do we do in that case with the Apostle Paul who constantly lectured? Pharisees were called a lot of nasty things, but God’s judgment was well-deserved. However, it had nothing to do with the forms of their meetings or their respect for tradition (in fact, Christ instructed his followers to follow the Godly traditions) but the state of their sinful hearts
You ask for Scriptural proof from me regarding the mission and purpose of the Church, offer to put out Scripture on two-way communication, and then claim that God NEVER communicates unidirectionally. NEVER is a pretty strong claim and, I doubt, Biblically supportable. I’d discuss the “mission and purposes” item but that’s an extensive discussion for which I unfortunately don’t have time right now. I’ve have covered that extensively in past posts with others.
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Jesus left an apathetic church…..
he said he would spit it out of his mouth!
We are really good at fighting evil, but do we fight apathy?
Heres a blog post about this:
http://redletterbelievers.blogspot.com/2009/04/apathy.html
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Jonny
What does Hank’s statement about context have to do with anything said so far? If something is out of context, demonstrate that fact, don’t just claim it.
“I think your antagonism toward lecturing drives you to a position that is unwarranted– complete rejection of any lecturing whatsoever; what do we do in that case with the Apostle Paul who constantly lectured?”
Maybe you could show me where the Bible says Paul constantly lectured. I have looked for it but have not found it. At various times some folks on this blog have put up scripture to prove lecturing is in there. I then show them how it is not there at all. The big one is the night Eutichus fell out of the window when Paul “talked on and on”. Educators all know that lecturing accomplishes the least learning of all other methods known. Biblically it leaves out clear Biblical instruction that learning is found in example setting in active relationship. Lecturing and lecturers most always leave this out completely. It’s not in their job description.
When you say, “Pharisees were called a lot of nasty things, but God’s judgment was well-deserved. However, it had nothing to do with the forms of their meetings or their respect for tradition”, it’s clear you didn’t understand why I brought up the Pharisees. Read what I said again and see if you get the point about tradition as your basis for saying something is true.
Let’s try again on this one: “You ask for Scriptural proof from me regarding the mission and purpose of the Church..”
I didn’t request statements from you on the general “mission and purpose of the church. I asked for you to demonstrate that two-way communication is not the only way demonstrated in scripture for doing church because you claim it is not the only way from the “mission and purpose of the church”. If you claim something, back it up. Start with just one example, not 10 paragraphs. In my original post here I showed very simply from Heb. 10:24,25 that one another communication is spelled out specifically for what it means to “meet”.
“…claim that God NEVER communicates unidirectionally. NEVER is a pretty strong claim and, I doubt, Biblically supportable”
It is a very strong claim. It goes to the nature of God and why He made us in His own image – for two-way communication of the love kind. The two commands that sum up them all are commands of relationship. There is no relationship in one-way communication. The whole Bible documents the ongong two-way relationship between God and man, it’s failures and successes. God noted David as a man after God’s own heart. Notice Davids intimate two-way communication with God. This is what God is after with you. Jesus, the chief shepherd is ALWAYS in two-way communication with ALL his sheep. God has designed for human shepherds/pastors/overseers to be no different. Unfortunately both shepherds and sheep prefer a system of church where a crowd of people (100 – 20,000) call one man “their pastor”, and he has no possible way of maintaining this kind of two-way relationship with them. So most believers only experience a ritual/ceremonial relationship with a shepherd rather than a personal/intimate one. Now they tend to think that a ceremonial/ritual relationship with God is what pleases Him.
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Jonny and Tima
Victoria
Nice work in digging out some original greek meanings. I”m glad you picked this one. You have confirmed that this, and many other scriptures refer to teaching, instruction, in the form of oral communication. I think even you see that these greek terms do not specify lecture. I don’t know if you noticed that one of the words here (koinoneo) demonstrates that the learners are speaking, communicating, sharing “all good things” back to the teacher – thus two-way communication. Wow! The learners are to communicate with their teacher! Have you ever offered back to your teacher, and to all the saints listening, a personal example of a point he made, an additional scripture that God gave you that reflects on his point, offered a scripture that demonstrated his point may be off set a little and that he might correct his perspective… while sitting in the pew? We all know tradition does not allow for this. Maybe your church is different. I have no doubt that if believers were allowed / encouraged / urged to do exactly as this verse says when they are being taught, the the level of learning taking place would sky-rocket and actually accomplish the goal of teaching which is to “fully train” believers so they are “like” their teacher. In other words, able to teach to others what they have been taught. Luke 6:40; 2Tim. 2:2 The goal of teaching is reproductivity, not perpetual dependency. God has not designed his all His people to need a hired lecture every week of their whole lives.
I’m sure many english dictionaries would define the word lecture as teaching and instruction. But this in no way means the Bible means lecture by the variety of greek words it uses to say teach / preach / etc.
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Tima – 65
Victoria
Once again you refuse to acknowledge that the very scripture you give to say teaching /preaching = lecture says the opposite. The very words describe two-way communication escape your understanding. Each time I show you, you suddenly become quiet on the point and end with an accusation. Again here you speak up for lecture. Your own verse shows your error. Why? You are held in the power of the traditions of men rather than God’s Word. I know it’s hard to break free of tradition. It has a powerful grip.
“Two way communication within a Worship service where a teacher/pastor could be interrupted serves no purpose, becomes chaotic- I have witnessed this time and again…”
Your concern for interruptions is purely tradition driven and ignores specific instructions from the scriptures. Are you ready for this?
1 Cor. 14:29-33
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
These verses are rendered meaningless in your preferred approach to the instructing of believers.
1. Fulfilling what this says is what God considers order and peace in a gathering. One man doing all the talking and no participation from anyone else is not an option in God’s book for order. God’s order for the church is for participation to be orderly, not for participation to be squelched.
2. The instruction is for the “interrupter” to have priority, not the first speaker. Wow!
Don’t try to tell my that “prophets” are different than “teachers” or “preachers” because it states the result of their speaking is instruction and encouragement.
Galations 1 is a masterpiece from Paul. It’s not in your best interest to want to read in lecture. Reading into the Word is a work of The deceiver. I am guilty of it from time to time, and I appreciate it when someone calls me on it. That’s one thing believers are supposed to “weigh” when they listen to others speaking.
Jesus wants His followers to participate when they gather. He won’t leave when His body is building His body.
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Tima – 67
I’m not quite at all – however you have used this approach in the past when you can’t elicit the answers you are looking for. The accusation is one which you can’t answer but throw it back like a ping pong ball – it’s a light weight Tima.
It is the accusation above in BOLD, which lends your words meaningless to me. I am under the power of GOD, if that is something you are unable to understand and grasp so be it.
Twisting what I have written in my post above won’t work. You might try breaking free of judging ones heart, and their devotion to GOD……
You can believe that ‘house churches’ are the only way to come together as a body of Believers, but there is not one piece of Scripture which says people can’t meet in a building, church, school. grassy slope, lake or anywhere else. The Bible doesn’t reference whether someone should sit on a couch, chair, pew, floor grass, or any number of places. We’ve had these discussions before, it all leads to your idea of ‘house church’ which I don’t agree with.
Your traditions are starting to show Tima –
One has to ask themselves what is the “Emergent Church” – Frank Viola and George Barna? -
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Victoria
“It is the accusation above in BOLD, which lends your words meaningless to me”
I am not much concerned that my words are meaningless to you. I do care that key parts of God’s words are meaningless to you. I take the time to appeal to you with them. When they show you what you don’t want to see, you become unable to acknowledge their meaning.
“…there is not one piece of Scripture which says people can’t meet in a building, church, school. grassy slope, lake or anywhere else. The Bible doesn’t reference whether someone should sit on a couch, chair, pew, floor grass, or any number of places…”
Here is your straw man argument. I have never suggested there is scripture that says you can’t meet in a church, building, school… nor that how you must sit. The only things I have shown from the scripture is what believers are supposed to DO when they meet. Once someone is able to acknowledge this, they have no issue WANTING to meet somewhere other than where there is a pulpit and pews laid out for the exact opposite dynamic to occur. Don’t distract yourself from the real issue in the course of the discussion.
I am not a fan of the Emerging church. Viola and Barna are not key players in this movement. I suspect they are only there because they want to help straighten out the weak points in the movement. One of the key weak points of this movement is that they maintain the pulpit / pew routines and bogus approaches to perpetual dependency leadership, consuming large percentages of the giving to buy stuff for the givers, and gatherings dominated by lecture, just like your church does. The emerging church emerges from your kind of church without fixing any of the existing significant problems.
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Tima
Tima, you blew it – you don’t know what my church does…you accuse without proof. Does the Bible warn against charging without proof?
Check out this blog back in January “Getting Real” – this should save you lots of time. You start out in post #6 —
http://online.worldmag.com/2009/01/14/getting-real/#comments
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Victoria
Another dodge of the scripture given so far on it’s instruction on two-way communication.
“The Getting Real” blog was on the beauty of two-way communication when the saints gather.
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Tima
Here is my post #70 once again, in response to your post 69
You used the same approach on the thread back in January – you don’t know what EVERY and ALL other churches are doing, IF you did you would be embarrassed at all the accusations you make against them. The whole conversation was much like this one, you didn’t make your points then, nor have you been able to do it on this thread either.
Know the truth before you accuse, this is a big country with lots of churches. You speak without knowledge, and accuse without proof. The LORD doesn’t teach us we can do that, ONLY HE, knows what each church is doing, and how they are serving HIM and preaching the Gospel.
Have a nice week.
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Victoria
Again, you are dodging the implications of the scripture that has been brought to bear on your assumptions about church. I don’t need to visit your church to know what is happening there.
1. You have told us about what you believe about church. You would not attend a church different than that.
2. If your church was different than what I have said in any specific way, you would have said so long ago.
I give you credit for not intentionally lying about your church to “prove me wrong”, but your clinging to your claim that I have to visit your church to know is an empty claim. The foundational assumptions of the institutionalized form of church life are 99% the same no matter what name is on the door, no matter what size, no matter what color of people go there. It’s been this way for thousands of years.
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Tima –
My posts #70, #72, are copy pasted from your statement, post #69 last paragraph which I’ve pointed repeatedly – and YOU CANNOT ANSWER. – - – what is your excuse?
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