Following Jesus in the Real World: Humility is disarming in this culture
Once the word gets out that I am a practicing “evangelical,” I get lots of comments about the church. I hear about hypocrites in the church and about national leaders whose lives fall far short of their rhetoric. A lot of the comments are true. So how do you handle those accusations? Ideally you can reach a point where you can explain the Christian theology of original sin and that redemption is only because of Christ and not because of works. But the old bumper sticker argument that “I am not perfect . . . just forgiven” is not a compelling defense for those who don’t understand the gospel and who witness the daily shortcomings of Christians.
I thought about a church in my town that decided last fall to own up to their failures. They made a bold decision to confess in humility and see what might happen.
The headline in an ad that ran in The Dallas Morning News screamed out in big, bold letters:
We Were Wrong
We followed trends when we should have followed Jesus. We told others how to live but did not listen ourselves. We live in the land of plenty, denying ourselves nothing, while ignoring our neighbors who actually have nothing. We sat on the sidelines doing nothing while AIDS ravaged Africa. We were wrong; we’re sorry. Please forgive us.
That is a powerful and sobering admission. I was shocked. And I was greatly encouraged by the courage and the humility needed to admit such an embarrassing message to the public.
I opened my first book When Bad Christians Happen to Good People back in 2002 with these words:
I must begin with some words of disclosure. I am a hypocrite. I can be arrogant and selfish. I have been known to stretch, conceal, or slightly massage the truth. I am sometimes inconsiderate and insecure. I struggle with lust and impure thoughts. My ego often rages out of control, and I battle foolish pride. I can be lazy and foolhardy with my time. I get angry, petty, and ill tempered. I am sarcastic and cynical.
I am a Christian.
Does that surprise you? It shouldn’t. If there is one theme about our faith that should be communicated, it is that we all fall short of the goal spelled out in Christ’s teachings. Author Max Lucado has a wonderful line. He says that God loves you just the way you are, but He refuses to leave you that way. So all of us believers are somewhere on that continuum of where we started and where God wants us to be. But that realization seems to penetrate our thinking only sporadically. In fact, there are those among us who will call me a counterfeit since I admit to such unflattering traits. They will write and tell me that if I had their brand of faith I would be above any of these sins all of the time. I believe they would be wrong.
Obviously a “bad Christian” like me was intrigued to hear how Springcreek Church explained their very public confession. Senior Pastor Keith Stewart wrote this in an open letter on the church website:
No one is perfect. No one lives sin-free. You blow it. I blow it. And the church does, too. I’m sure that you (like me) have, on more than one occasion, had to make something right by apologizing. So why is it so rare to hear a church apologize? The truth is, an apology from the church should not “stand out.” It should not make the community sit up and take notice. But it does, precisely because that the church rarely does what it tells others to do.
In all sincerity, we want to change that. The church in America has a serious credibility problem. Those outside the church look at us and often don’t see anything that even remotely resembles Jesus. Instead they see judgment, hypocrisy, and very little compassion. They hear our words, but don’t see a lifestyle that aligns with those words.
Is this very public mea culpa Godly, or is it a gimmick? Pastor Stewart began his open letter with this Scripture:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives (1 John 1, NIV).
I would love to go to a church that can confess with humility and grace that they have erred. I trust that Pastor Stewart’s heart is sincere and his congregation shares his authenticity. I rarely write in absolutes but one thing I have found is that truly Godly people always demonstrate humility. From reading the comments at the church website I am struck by the humility of Pastor Keith Stewart.
If I may gracefully add one caution to my fellow sojourners here in scenic Garland, Texas, it would be this lesson I learned the hard way. I am responding to a couple of lines that appeared in the open letter. I hasten to add that their leadership may be well ahead of your humble correspondent on this point. Here are the sentences that caused me to recall my long journey to practice grace:
The only way the community will ever believe our words is if our behavior backs it up. With the help of God, we want to become a community of believers that lives out its creed.
May I suggest with all the grace I can muster the following thoughts? The community will believe your words if you create an environment of grace and from that safety you can live out your creed. A place where you can walk in flawed and hurting and be accepted for who you are and where you are in your journey. A place where you don’t have to wear a mask to be accepted. That is when, in my humble opinion, the community will believe your words. I am praying for you daredevils at Springcreek Church. I pray that many of us will follow your example both personally and corporately. I think it is a good example of humility that the rest of us can take to the workplace and into our own circle of influence. Your thoughts?














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back to top74 Comments to “Following Jesus in the Real World: Humility is disarming in this culture”
I think humility in others is so attractive to me because it is an honest reflection of what God sees in a person (or a church). God sees us accurately, warts and beauty marks. The absence of humility reveals a lack or seeing ourselves as God sees us. I often find myself being more concerned about what others think of me than what God thinks. That’s when I put on the mask, and any trace of genuine humility vanishes.
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Humility may or may not be disarming in this culture, depending on how you define it. I don’t see that you’ve distinguished true humility from false.
At any rate, moral virtues are not the possessions–primarily, at least–of corporate bodies. They’re the possessions of individuals first and foremost. If you want to argue that humility is disarming, you might use a personal illustration rather than this advertising gimmick, this showmanship, this pandering to the spirit of the age, that’s all to predictable in the current atmosphere. That kind of humility is quite “in” these days, just the like the “humility” in this post that is forever trembling to make a truth statement lest someone somewhere be offended.
There is a sorry tendency in the thinking that’s exemplified in this post to confer truth on the world’s perspective rather than the Bible’s. Thus, Christians are always hypocritical failures. Victories, healings, transformations, successes are never asserted when the world’s and the devil’s accusations come up. Moreover, words like “humility,” “judgment,” “compassion” and “hypocrite” are all defined in the world’s terms, not in the Bible’s. People who would condemn the church for these behaviors (if they ever actually exist and aren’t just delusions or projections) would just as quickly condemn not only the apostles but Jesus Himself for them.
If a church, as a corporate entity, is going to apologize publicly in the pages of the world’s newspapers, I’d rather they apologized for diluting the Gospel, for being ashamed of its power, for trimming the edges off God’s truth in order to be more favorably viewed by “those who are without,” for denying the transcendence of the entire Word of God–not for failing to live up to the world’s petty morality.
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All I have to say is if you are within 100 miles of Springcreek Church (and it sounds like you are close by, Dave B), you should come and experience the church yourself. And then make your assessments.
It is a really incredible place. Check out this testimony from this weekend: http://www.springcreekchurch.org/thisweek.html It is after the announcements that start the mp3 off and after the song “I Will Remember You.” This is the kind of church I go to. How ’bout you?
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Humility is of primary benefit to the one(s) being humble. People looking for it (judging its presence or absence) will likely not really see it. It is infectious and freeing. And, of course like all of God’s good things widely sought after in it’ counterfeit forms.
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Well, two weeks ago Dave B got hit from the left, and now this week we see a jab from the right… probably a good sign that you’re doing the right thing. : )
In all seriousness, I think that being open, honest, and humble about our sins is an important priority in reaching people today. We certainly see it modeled in Scripture, and while there have been many excesses in excusing sin, I don’t think that’s where most worldmagblog readers have fallen. One can certainly be too open with certain things, but people will always be hungry for the true Gospel– and I think one of the best ways to apply Gospel truth from the Bible is to take a great big magnifying glass on our sins. Not the sins of other churches, or Christians we don’t like, or non-Christians. Our sins. When people hear us talk about the magnitude of our sin and the suffering that Christ went through on our behalf and the power of His grace to free us– this, I think, is powerful.
Given that confession & repentance are at the heart of our faith and often the repentant faithful apologize on behalf of their unfaithful forefathers (look at all the prophets & kings who do so throughout the OT!), I think that what Dave is talking about and Spring Creek is trying is a very faithful application of the powerful Word of God.
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#3 Kelly…..
Thanks for the link. That was great! God is at work in peoples lives everywhere. We tend to be so critical, and looking for the perfect church that we don’t settle in and let God change ourselves.
A young man appeared in our church auditorium the other day. I was here all alone and I heard someone playing the piano. I walked in and saw a stranger at the keyboard. I think I startled him and he asked if he should leave. I said: “no, you are welcome to play as long as you like.” We chatted briefly and I found out that he was a HS drop out working on his alternate HS studies at a university near by. He played the piano beautifully, all by ear. I returned to what I was doing and he continued to play. He left after awhile and I watched out the window as he rode away on a bicycle. How I wish I had engaged him further in conversation. What drew him to an unfamiliar church? Why was he so far from home? (10 mi.) What was going on in his life that God might have used for our mutual encouragement or challenge. I pray for Jose, I hope I have a chance to meet him again and this time I will give more time.
It sounds like your church does that well.
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Jesus was humble; however, it didn’t necessarily improve his credibility in his community.
gaining favor in our individual communities cannot be our objective in being humble. it may be a side product, but our goal should be avoiding God’s opposition and gaining his favor. he knows the depths of our hypocrisy and sin.
looking at what i’ve written and what precedes it, i see that i am mainly restating fisherman’s comments. humility is good for me, and helps me to see myself and God as he sees.
comment #4 resonates with me.
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Admittedly I’m a bit wary of newspaper ads like this. You could easily say it is just more words since you can’t print actions.
I’m also very wary of people who seek forgiveness from everyone and no one at the same time.
However, the spirit of the ad has some truth. I think Gerstener once said something like this with respect to sanctification:
“The strongest argument against Christianity is that one the hand there are so many Christians in the world that are jerks and on the other hand there are som many nice people that are non-Christians.”
Mike
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Thanks Trees!!!! I told you I could offend both sides! Pretty cool to be described by a stranger as “trembling”.
Love the drive-bys!
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Right on, Dave. Keep refusing to hear what doesn’t sit well with you. Dismiss it humorously, and belittle the critic. Excellent strategy.
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Right on, Dave.
Keep refusing to hear what doesn’t sit well with you.
Dismiss it humorously, and belittle the critic.
Excellent strategy.
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Hello? Comments?
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Wow… real respectable.
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Why aren’t my comments showing up?
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#9…drivebys?
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Drive-bys – the people that read the blog post with intent to get upset/offended. Typically the drive-by isn’t interested in the content of the blog, or contributing to the community. They just look to flex their spiritual muscle by dissecting the works of others.
David L. – here is why you were tagged as a drive-by. If you had read any of Dave’s previous posts, or even his blog you would know that authentic humility is something he strives for. If you knew the man personally, you would know that he is genuinely at least close to living it out daily. If you read this post a little deeper you would’ve at least caught a glimpse of that.
Please understand, this church might be still following a trend by submitting such an article to the newspaper. I work for a church, I know how creative & branding departments think. They know that this sort of thing has worked with other churches, and it’s attractive. I do, however, trust the previous statement by Kelly on her church, as well as the group of guests that likely flowed into the church. They sound like they are reaching the lost with the gospel. Lives are being changed, for the sake of Christ.
Which points in any of that church’s confession qualified as “watering down the gospel?” The only “edges” I saw cut off in the article were the sharp bits of religiosity that push non-believers away.
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There are simply too many Daves and Davids to keep straight around here anymore.
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Speaking as the head “Goat” on WMB, I thank Dave Burchett for his comments. He represents the hope that Christianity might be worth saving after-all.
Of course, The Queen hasn’t weighed in yet…
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From Dave the blogger to David L the poster…
A little investigative work will reveal that I often resort to a sense of humor. Sometimes it works. For the record, I do not refuse to hear what doesn’t sit well with me. I do prefer that the truth be communicated with grace.
I think you were a bit judgmental of the Springcreek Church and me without knowing much about either. I don’t think that helps the dialogue.
Blessings and grace,
Dave
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From Dave the blogger to David J…
Thanks. I appreciate the encouragement and kind words.
Blessings,
Dave
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The ad may be just rhetoric, but if people who have read it happen to meet people from the church and can see them interacting with humility, the cumulative effect could be powerful.
I think the hardest thing about believing you know what is right and moral is to resist the temptation to bring imprecations down on the heads of everyone you perceive as doing wrong.
We’ve all been forgiven of an awful lot, so we have no right to look down on people that we are, if we are honest, no better than. And one of the greatest impediments to Christian witness is being perceived as smug or self-righteous. People, quite rightly, perceive that we have no place to hold ourselves up as better than they.
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So, who’s the drive-by? I’ve been reading and commenting on WorldMagBlog for years. My pastor used to blog here. And I happen to have read all the previous posts in this series. None of them struck me as particularly solid or even insightful; they all smell of the same timid, seeker-sensitive, watered-down sensibility that evangelicalism has become known for in recent years, and none of them really made any points I cared to comment on.
In this post however, Dave asked a specific question and I took the opportunity to respond to it. (Won’t make that mistake again.) I seem to remember him soliciting comments openly back in his first post, but I must have missed the section where he said critical comments would be snidely dismissed.
What I criticized mainly was the action of this church–not the writer of this post or the church as a whole. And that because Dave B. brought it to light and asked for comments. How absurd to solicit comments and then get all huffy when someone posts one.
Further, it’s absolutely absurd to say that one’s ideas can only be critiqued by readers who know the writer personally. That’s another irritating post-modern fallacy that makes me suspect unbiblical thinking. I don’t need to know anyone personally in order to make a judgment (or discernment) about the quality of his ideas. If you don’t like readers responding to your posts, I can give you a couple of suggestions on how to avoid it in the future….
But then, you don’t know me personally, and you felt it appropriate to “tag” me. I think I made some valid points in response to your post, and all I get by way of response is this juvenile dismissal. Classy.
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Hey David L…
Fair enough. I ask your forgiveness for the drive-by comment. My friend David tried to give you a little background on me. You are right that you don’t have to know a person to judge the quality of their ideas. I do think you have to know a fellow follower of Christ to judge their heart and motives.
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I feel I either misspoke or was misunderstood (most likely the former). I wasn’t intending to say that you have to know the person in order to make a comment. I was making those statements from my personal experience of my friend. I meant to say that if you look a little deeper, and into other posts, you’d find what you were looking for. However, reading your latter posts showed that it wasn’t the case.
In the realm that I work, I have a ton of experience with people that dismiss “new” techniques or ideas as unbiblical, simply because they go against tradition. Their religion has become their idol. I tend to have a very short fuse with these attitudes. I seem to have lumped you in that group, David L, and didn’t handle it with grace. I realize that you aren’t necessarily one of those people.
In defense of the “same timid, seeker-sensitive, watered-down sensibility that evangelicalism has become known for in recent years,” there is definitely a place for that now, but by a different definition. The church has over-intellectualized and religified their faith so much that they’ve missed out on doing the basics. It’s very convicting to me to go back through the life of Christ, and see the very same actions & attitudes of the Pharisees active in the lives of Christians. (Please don’t read into this, I’m not calling anyone a Pharisee).
The churches that are going back to the basics are the ones that are growing and genuinely changing lives. Most of the churches stuck in tradition are in decline.
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Several things come to mind on this topic.
Lives that demonstrate a wholeness or a settled-ness (Benedict called it stability) are attractive — or at least they were for me. It was this lived witness of two high school classmates that first made the faith credible for a yearning house (Campus Crusade a year later sealed the deal).
I have often been lured by the engagement of some great (or not so great) issue. In fairness, I think this is part of the sheer joy of young adulthood. Still, for me, it is easy to to make this external, public stance be my “true” self — it creates that instability in my heart that has emptied my life in God. The external often is what gets validated by others.
Humility, like anything else, of course, can be mimicked. It’s not immune from performance. Thus for me, the pursuit of integrity, humility, this stability brings me face-to-inward-face with what it means to trust God. Do I trust God with my words? My actions? Of course, I also wonder, do I say this because I’m not 35 and in the fullness of my strength? Maybe it’s just my getting old.
Maybe.
But I think learning to walk like this is a discipline, and some things (at least for me) take time.
.
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David Johnson wrote,
The church has over-intellectualized and religified their faith so much that they’ve missed out on doing the basics.
This could use some fleshing-out. I see little of this anywhere I look, and a lot more of the opposite.
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Ok, I’ll take a swing at it. I’m not going to say that there aren’t a plethora of churches that are over-simplifying faith, making bad doctrinal choices for the sake of popularity. However, the church that I work for right now has had to take a very hard look at itself and the reason for its decline.
I work for a large Southern Baptist church stuck right in the middle of the largest growth development in my part of the state. I think they said there’s 40,000 houses built in a 5 mile radius from our church in 10 years (since we’ve moved to this property). We had good community, great in-depth historical Bible teaching, world class preschool & children’s programs, an unbelievably huge missions program, but our church was in decline. We should’ve been growing exponentially.
We became so focused on learning more & more of the history of passages, digging so deep that we missed out on the simple application. Our church became inwardly focused and over-intellectualized. We slowly built ourselves into a bubble, where we were completely irrelevant to the culture around us. It was a very “us vs. them” mentality.
I came in with the wave of change, with the people that question why we do certain things. Honestly, most of the time the answer was because we’ve always done it that way.
You wouldn’t believe the grief we went through when we changed worship styles. Some of the members thought we were going to hell because we didn’t have 3 hymns, a praise chorus, a choir special, deacon prayer, and then a sermon. I won’t tell you what happened when we changed to more colored lighting. Most of all, though, we changed how we deal with people, especially guests. Guys wearing shorts with tattoos are no longer turned away at the door (yes that actually happened). We’ve began actually seeking to love those placed around us, not view them as “the others.”
We’re shifting from a selfish inward focus (what we want & have always had) to an outward focus (what’s going to reach the next generation and our community), and we’re back in steady growth.
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David L – I’m interested in what in particular in Dave B’s posts you find to be “timid, seeker-sensitive, watered-down sensibility”. I am always interested in differing points of view, but find that often people don’t flesh out what they’re writing about.
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Dave B – David L does have a point about the mistake of seeing things in the world’s perspective. (Not saying you’re doing that, but that it is a danger.)
Often, people “in the world”, especially those who happen to be under conviction of the Holy Spirit, will have a harsh judgment about anything a Christian says or does. Sometimes just a casual reference to church or God is taken as “pushing religion”. Merely expressing one’s opinion, even gently, can be seen as being judgmental.
Here on WMB, I have often been shocked, after reading a gracious, respectable comment by a fellow Christian, to then read a response by a non-Christian accusing the comment of being judgmental or even hateful. It is through their anti-Christian preconceptions that they are reading. (And we Christians need to be careful that we read what is really being said by others & not see the words through our perception of what we think they are saying.)
(And isn’t accusing someone of being judgmental, especially when the accuser looks down on that one, also being judgmental?)
In my own non-Christian extended family, there are often anti-Christian “zingers” that are thrown out to bait me. I have learned (through the urging of the Holy Spirit) to ignore most of them, but that there are times when a soft, gracious, but firm answer is required.
When I do give one of those answers, even though it is in response to their words, I am still seen as “pushing my religion”.
BUT – Years of trying to be as gentle, loving, & gracious as possible has paid off, in that my SIL sees God working in me, though she doesn’t want to admit it.
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Well said Karen. I love being challenged. I really do. But I find that I respond much better when the challenge is framed in grace as you have done. My rule of thumb for “judging” is that I can judge actions and ideas based on Biblical principles and truth. I think I cross the line when I judge motives and hearts. While David L and I might disagree on approach I do not presume to question his heart for God or his desire to serve Him. I really feel bad that he was offended by my “drive-by” comment. I should not have judged him to be in that category so quickly. I will show more grace on that issue in the future. Thanks for your questions and your cautions.
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Peter L. – 2
I read your post – I find what you have written to be true, at least as far as I’ve observed since childhood, as a pastor’s daughter. I post your last paragraph below because I believe it’s vitally important in our churches.
Jesus was humble, however HE was straightforward as to HIS teaching, Salvation, repentance, turning from sin, “sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee” – these are all but forgotten in our churches today.
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David Johnson – are you part of the “Emergent Church” movement?
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Thanks for your response to me in #27, David Johnson. The flaws you decry don’t strike me as byproducts of over-intellectualization or religification (to coin a form of your term). They don’t seem like much more than your basic stick-in-the-mud-ism. Objecting to church lighting is a facet of intellectualization? That’s more a case of anti-intellectualism, no?
In a post meant to extol the virtues of humility, it’s ironic that you and Mr. Burchett failed to exercise same (toward David L.) in the very same thread accompanying it. Maybe because of a misdiagnosis.
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Victoria, I’m not as much a part of the emergent church. I’m a Southern Baptist/Independant Bible Church doctrinally, but I tend to be sympathetic to a lot of the emergent methods. If you were to tag me, I’d say I’m Missional Bible Church. Most of my doctrine comes from my Baptist roots, I just disagree with how the Baptists tend to segment themselves away from the rest of the denominations. It’s a pride & superiority complex that I feel is largely unbiblical.
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David Johnson – 34
YOU WRITE: “I’m not as much a part of the emergent church. I’m a Southern Baptist/Independant Bible Church doctrinally, but I tend to be sympathetic to a lot of the emergent methods.”
Which methods are you sympathetic to regarding the Emergent Church movement?
Are you an advocate of Rick Warren, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Tony Campolo or Dallas Willard,
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Sorry, Yeah, I tend to chase rabbits. The lighting complaints didn’t come from the over-intellectualization… it was the same crowd that seemed to have a problem with it, though. The main part of the over-intellectualization, that I didn’t emphasize enough, is that the people sought such a knowledge in the history and deepest meanings of scriptures that they put actual application at risk.
I’m not demonizing knowledge of the Bible… trust me, I’m a huge theology/history/Biblical nerd. I love knowing as much as I possibly can, but in the right context.
Knowledge without application is useless. I just see how in this particular situation knowledge got in the way of reaching people. In fact, many of the people have such an air of superiority over others because they know of certain historical facts/nuances.
This is the manner of Christianity that kept my brother away from the church for over 10 years. He’s just now found a congregation to participate in. I recognize now that I didn’t show the humility that the article is talking about. I see my flawed nature, coming out against what I perceived was a manner of faith that has kept many friends and family away from the church.
Fun conversation, though… thanks for prodding into my comments, Yeah, and helping me make sense, if only just a little more.
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Victoria, I haven’t studied enough into any of those men to make an adequate comparison with where I stand. I read a little bit of one of Brian McLaren’s books, but didn’t make it very far. It just didn’t gel with me. Here are some of the books in my reading list right now, and maybe that will help you get a better picture:
“The Shaping of Things to Come” – Frost & Hirsch
“Jesus Wants to Save Christians” – Bell & Golden
“Crazy Love” – Francis Chan
“Monkey and the Fish” – Dave Gibbons
“Blue Like Jazz” changed my life. It actually reignited my passion for the church in a time that I was very cynical & burnt out (BTW, I found out about the book from Dave Burchett). Mark Driscoll is my hero. So much of his teachings just blow me away.
I’m sympathetic towards the idea of basic community & of the missional lifestyle. I think that the church should stop building fortresses to draw people in (the attractional method), but should create a body of missionaries willing to go out & absolutely love people to Christ (missional method). Go out and love people sacrificially, without an agenda, and see the amazing results that God brings from it. It is one of the easiest things to say, and one of the hardest things for me to put into practice… but that’s what I’m striving for.
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I certainly don’t find Driscoll to be a hero.
When I’ve read “I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.” Driscoll couldn’t beat up Jesus Christ if he tried, Jesus Christ was beaten, nailed and hung on a Cross for Driscoll’s sins, and ours as well – that sort of macho statement is unlearned, it’s not humor, or satire it’s out of line.
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VICTORIA #38
I think you are misunderstanding Mark Dricoll’s statement. I think he is saying that he cannot beat up the real Jesus of the Bible, that the culturalized Jesus some people worship is not Him.
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Fisherman – 39
I don’t misunderstand at all, it’s very clear, I am more than able to comprehend what Driscoll stated. There are many people who feel the same way, they too understand English.
It’s a very crude, self promoting statement, which appears to raise lots of attention from the audience, but has zero respect or truth regarding the LORD Jesus Christ.
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Victoria: I don’t misunderstand at all, it’s very clear, I am more than able to comprehend what Driscoll stated. There are many people who feel the same way, they too understand English.
You apparently do not understand English. If you did, and if you had read ONE SENTENCE past the one you bolded, you would have seen this:
I fear some are becoming more cultural than Christian, and without a big Jesus who has authority and hates sin as revealed in the Bible, we will have less and less Christians, and more and more confused, spiritually self-righteous blogger critics of Christianity.”
Got that, Queenie? He says we need THE JESUS OF THE BIBLE and not the easy, soft, weak Jesus of too much popular
Christianity.
You are one of the most harsh, self-righteous, prideful, meanspirited “Christians” I have ever encountered, and it’s really funny because you are so completely wrong about half the time from simply not bothering to read what people actually write.
And now I will wait for you to spin like a dervish trying to insist you really did understand and how you are right even though everyone with one eye and half a brain can see you completely misunderstood the quote you objected to.
I apologize for the outburst, it is probably not appropriate, particularly in a thread about humility, but on the other hand, you could use some humility.
I mena, good grief, Driscoll actually agrees with you about the emergent movement, but you are so eager to show how much more righteous and theologically correct you are that you don’t even bother to figure that out before letting fly.
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In Revelation, Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship.
Victoria – This portion of the quote seems to indicate that Driscoll does in fact worship the real Jesus of the Bible.
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So anyway…
Good post at #36, David Johnson. Thanks for bearing with me to make clarification. I appreciate your desire to put rubber to the road. I’ve got a lot of growth to do in that regard and your articulation is encouraging.
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david burchett, now that the discussion has died down, i would like to make a comment that isn’t really pertinent to this particular article, but is an observation in general about blogging for world magazine. you may be experiencing culture shock. you seem to be having a hard time realizing that people are addressing you with grace and humility from their own cultural norms. even though we all speak english, we come from the northeast, the midwest, the mountain west, the pacific northwest, the southwest, and the Bible belt south.
i would like to (graciously, by my own culture) suggest that you try to read people’s comments assuming that people are trying to be gracious and helpful.
i think that you are doing a good job stimulating robust and vigorous conversation, which is one of the objectives of worldmagblog.
congratulations.
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It is good to give people the benefit of the doubt. But sometimes people think they are being gracious and helpful when in fact they are not. It is possible (and probably common) for people to be sincerely wrong. The challenge is knowing how to most effectively respond to them. Do we ignore them, castigate them, try to inform and teach them, pray for them? I suppose every situation is different. And in a situation like a blog where we really know very little about each other it is even more difficult. Once in a while a comment like SteveG #41 seems appropriate. We will see whether it is effective or not.
I think I would like to know if I am sincerely wrong in something I say. Well, maybe. It depends on how you tell me. Actually, I think I am quite content in my sincerity whether I am right or wrong. Wow, that is a dumb place to be isn’t it.
Dear God, help me be truly gracious and helpful to others. And help me respond with grace (humility) to people trying to help me see my blind spots. Neither of these things are natural for me.
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fisherman, #46, if you were responding to my comment, i was referring to david’s comments in #9, 23, and 30. if you weren’t responding to my comment, this one is irrelevant.
i would agree with you that steveg’s comment does seem appropriate.
“Dear God, help me be truly gracious and helpful to others. And help me respond with grace (humility) to people trying to help me see my blind spots. Neither of these things are natural for me.”
amen.
the reason i made the comment in #45 — i followed your link, and realized that you are apparently from my cultural norm–my husband is a pastor in Montana. so your posts resonate with me more than some.
i’ve lived in most of the regions in the US, as well as living in Brazil for several years, so i understand a little about cultural adaptation. when i first started reading the posts on worldmagblog, i tended to freak out at some. but when i figured out, “oh, that person is from the Bible belt,” then his/her comment made more sense. or “oh, that person is from california.” sometimes the cultural context helps.
all the discussion on true humility throughout this post was very helpful to me. the apologies illustrated the point better than the article itself, imo. david burchett was willing to practice what he preached.
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Thanks, Tammie. I have lived in Eastern Oregon my whole adult life. Just recently moved to Idaho. I really enjoy MT too. I am sure that I don’t really understand life in other places. i.e.: NYC, DC, LA
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What a charming and humble way of expressing yourself, who would have ever guessed.
I’ve never found anything like that appropriate. Perhaps after all the years I have been around Christians, those who are studied in the Word of God, I have been privileged to miss such behavior.
I made that comment after months of watching Victoria belittle, insult and airily dismiss everything which doesn’t meet her standards. If it seems unduly harsh, it’s because it’s been pent up for a while.
But as #49 proves, it falls on deaf ears. Victoria is simply incapable of ever introspectively considering that maybe, just maybe, she might be wrong once in a while.
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Victoria
I am sorry that you are unreceptive to the comments about the way you come across to us.
You obviously have studied the Bible and know lots of facts about it. There are self-proclaimed unbelievers who are regulars here that know Bible facts well also. Unfortunately, it is not our knowledge that has the primary impact on others. Jesus said: “the world will know that you are my disciples by the way that you love one another.” Paul said: “… if I … have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, … but have not love … I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal, … I am nothing, … I gain nothing.”
Of course knowing the Word of God is important. It is crucial! But so is doing it. Speaking to believers, James said: “be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” (James 1:19-27)
While your Bible references are often appropriate, your attitude, I believe, does not represent the Lord Jesus well. I know that you are often called names. That is not appropriate either, but it does not excuse your critical spirit. Jesus was sometimes very critical of people but he did it, I believe, with a broken heart for their blindness. Jesus could never be seen as having a critical spirit. Too many Christians do have critical spirits. And while they always seem to have their comrades, their path is littered with battered brothers and sisters, and turned off non-believers.
God and His Word are fully capable of defending themselves. What God really needs is an army of servants, transformed by His Spirit, accurately demonstrating Jesus to the people around us.
I write this sincerely because Jesus Christ loves us, and I love you.
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This being the proof: Many strong Evangelical Churches have not adopted the ways of the “Emergent Church” nor do they support their leaders. For this reason many within the Emergent Church become angry only because we disagree. The excuse is, it’s the way we disagree, it’s not what we say but the way we say it….. a handy excuse when responding to those with whom the Emergent Church disagrees.
Fisherman rejected being labeled ‘emergent,’ and mentioned an author who criticizes the emergent movement just as much as Victoria does and for many of the same reasons .. but once having jumped to conclusions and reacted as if the agreement were disagreement, Victoria cannot find the humility to admit she simply misread and misunderstood. Now she will fight to the end insisting that she was right despite the plain English that everyone else here is quite capable of understanding proving her to be wrong.
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I don’t read every single post on the threads I post on. There are some people whom I find interesting to read, and others I skip over, either because of time restraints, or because I choose not to.
I find many on this blog to be very interesting, well studied in the Bible and other areas, their posts are informative, no matter whether I appreciate their delivery or not.
There are a fair number of false teachers today within the Christian community. They spout their doctrine, write books as though no one should question or refute what they say. Paul was never someone to dodge, he spoke up and talked about it often. I would imagine he would be as popular a wild boar on this blog. I am certain he would not make any sort of statement that “Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down His leg” – Paul didn’t go to outlandish lengths to get his point across for attention. I also believe he would have chastised anyone for making such a statement.
When those who have made a sport of mocking our LORD and Savior need to be reminded that it doesn’t line up with Scripture, no matter how hip and clever they believe themselves to be. Paul made it clear in 2 Timothy what we should do, however there are a great many Believers who think otherwise.
You can’t mold another person to write, post, or speak as you would – I certainly wouldn’t think of telling someone off, as the person has done on this thread, with some of you as supporters. In another venue, this would be noting more than a girlie cat fight, which is pathetic – it’s play ground tactics.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Matthew 7:3
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I’m truly excited! We now have a chance to get back on topic, especially since my statements were responsible for this huge detour.
Victoria, I appreciate your questions, and your attempt to defend your take on our faith. When you began (#32 & 35), everything was discussed with civility, and everyone responded with civility. You asked me questions about my theological background & practices, and I explained them to you calmly with the best of my ability.
However, it seems that you were drawing me in with your questions just to disprove my theology and prove why yours is better. I had a feeling of this (since you listed a slew of leaders, I figured you have quotes in the wings to disprove all of them, too), but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I fully believe that you missed the point with the Driscoll quote, so in my mind that piece of evidence is out the window. I’m willing to listen to other quotes, but preferably in another setting.
This proves my point, though, in what I was stating in my earlier posts. You’re not accomplishing anything by dissecting my views. I’m not going to continue in the conversation, when you’re acting like you’re superior to me. We’re all human, we’re all on the same level, and we all worship the same Jesus.
Now back on track, it shows when we deal with each other with respect & humility we truly get something accomplished. Lives are more open to be changed, and more people experience the relentless unbelievably amazing love that the rest of us know. As the representatives of Christ, how will anyone see His love if we aren’t the ones to show it?
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In response to post #43: Revelation 19:11-18
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
King of Kings and Lord of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”
Driscoll’s quote:
“In Revelation, Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed.”
That sounds like a pretty accurate paraphrase to me. And it very much is in scripture. Forgive me for not being able to bold the text to highlight the point, I’m pretty new to this. With all respect, you misinterpreted Driscoll’s statement.
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David Johnson – 54
YOU WRITE: “However, it seems that you were drawing me in with your questions just to disprove my theology and prove why yours is better.”
You’re wrong, what I read from your post led me to believe you are pro “Emergent Church” so, instead of guessing I asked you a straight question, which you answered. I had no way of knowing you would count Mark Driscoll – “Mark Driscoll is my hero. So much of his teachings just blow me away.”
When I read your post #27 it sounded very much like Rick Warren. Hence, the question in post #32.
“Drawing me in” as you say, wasn’t the reason – there’s no need to jump to conclusions as to why someone asks a question, unless you are touchy about the answer and the discussion that might follow.
There is nothing uncivil about discussing the Emergent Church or why many people do not agree with it, or some of its leaders. It’s brought up all the time in different ways on this blog. We back up our beliefs with Scripture, and quotes from those who’s doctrinal beliefs don’t line up with Scripture.
YOU WRITE: “This proves my point, though, in what I was stating in my earlier posts. You’re not accomplishing anything by dissecting my views. I’m not going to continue in the conversation, when you’re acting like you’re superior to me. We’re all human, we’re all on the same level, and we all worship the same Jesus.”
Stating my views, using Scripture to back it up, quotes from someone who doesn’t line up with the Bible isn’t an act of ’superior’ at all, its stating what I believe. It’s not a matter of ’same level’ its whether or not what we believe is factual, whether it can be proven using Scripture. Many people are afraid of discussion, rather choosing to use ideas rather than what stated by those who were inspired to pen the pages of Scripture from Christ.
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David Johnson
YOU WRITE: “Driscoll’s quote: “In Revelation, Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed.” —- That sounds like a pretty accurate paraphrase to me.”
I don’t consider that a paraphrase at all – taking the hip hop dude mentality and applying it to Scripture.
I have no idea how “KING OF KINGS” will be written on the LORD’s vesture or his thigh, I wouldn’t want to venture a ‘guess’ as we aren’t to add to the Word of GOD –
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But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:28
21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1 Peter 2:2
NO, Christ Jesus didn’t want to have sexual relations with a woman,<b. if HE had lusted after a woman HE would have committed adultery in HIS heart, which obviously HE DID NOT DO. Here again ‘lust’ and ‘tempted’ confused to make a story which isn’t true. Jesus was GOD the SON, HE was tempted, “yet without sin.”
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21
So here we see clearly that Jesus was without sin, the Bible does address this point, however Driscoll either doesn’t know this, or ignores it. Without searching out the Scriptures, one can’t know what’s in them.
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I don’t know anything about Driscoll except what has been quoted here, but regarding the question “Could Jesus have sinned?” –
There are two views on this, both of which agree that Jesus never sinned.
One view says that Jesus was not able to sin.
The other says that Jesus was able not to sin. (Fallen man, on the other hand, is not able not to sin, which is why we all do.)
The latter view says that, having a human nature, it was theoretically possible for Jesus to sin, but that in every case he chose to do what was right. That would mean that he “could have sinned” – but never did. That would be like Adam in the garden (who obviously could sin, since he did), if he had never chosen to disobey.
I would agree with Driscoll that the Bible does not address the question of whether Jesus was not able to sin or able not to sin. It clearly says that he did not sin.
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Pauline,
Jesus was GOD the SON, being DEITY, HE was unable to sin. There are many passages of Scripture which point to Jesus being part of the GODHEAD, therefore unable to sin.
Can you think of any passage of Scripture which says that GOD can sin? – do you think it possible Pauline? If GOD can or could have sinned, than HE too would have needed a Savior, have you given that any thought?
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GOD calls His SON GOD, and His SON calls His FATHER GOD!
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Victoria,
Jesus was also human, and humans are able to sin. I’m not saying He was able to sin, but I don’t think that the fact He was God necessarily meant that He could not. God is a spirit and does not have a physical body; Jesus clearly had a physical body. In some ways He was like all other humans, in other ways He was not. Some people interpret Hebrews 4:15, saying that He was like us in all ways, yet without sin, to mean that the capability to sin existed but that it was never exercised.
You say “If GOD can or could have sinned, than HE too would have needed a Savior.” No, only if He did actually sin. The capability to sin, if never exercised, does not require a Savior. Would Adam have needed a Savior if he had never sinned?
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Pauline,
Jesus had a physical body but at the same time HE was still GOD the SON, HE didn’t stop being part of the GODHEAD.
When Jesus Christ uttered these words, it became clear who HE was. Jesus was GOD in the flesh.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:9
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
GOD was either manifest in the flesh, or HE wasn’t – Jesus made it clear in John 14:9 – I’m sure not going to argue with GOD the Son.
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“Did Jesus justify HIS DEITY?”
God’s Holy Spirit is part of the triune Godhead, the Holy Ghost is God’s Spirit.
In verse 33 that the Jews realized immediately that Jesus was saying that HE was God “I and my Father are one” the Jews knew what that meant, it meant that Jesus was making Himself God, as in verse 33. The Jews knew what Blasphemy meant, and as far as they were concerned Jesus had committed blasphemy.
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#63 “Jesus was GOD in the flesh.”
Victoria,
Yes, I agree with you. Nothing I said is arguing against that point.
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Pauline,
That’s great, I’m happy you believe it.
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Victoria: I apologize for my outburst at you earlier. It was ungracious and unbecoming.
You do frustrate me, though. I think you are so certain you are right — about everything — that you are never open to seriously considering any other opinions. And when you are wrong because you’ve misunderstood what someone said, as is evidence happened in this thread, you never muster the humility to simply admit it.
Speaking as your fellow Christian, I do think you should actually reflect on this rather than simply insist you’re right and I’m wrong. I’m hardly the only person who has noticed it or pointed it out to you.
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Steveg,
I accept your apology, thank you so much.
I do believe that what I have come to believe is true, when it comes to Biblical doctrine. I have spent almost seven years now in constant research and study of the Bible – 4 to 12 hours per day – it is my joy having the privilege to spend this time to study.
I no longer question the doctrine which I hold to be true, I’ve been over it many times, it’s now what I believe without a shadow of a doubt. It’s because of this secure knowledge of GOD’s Word that I most likely come across as not accepting another doctrine, I don’t.
There comes a time when we know why we believe and what we believe – it’s not that one knows EVERYTHING in the Bible, but they are secure in the essential doctrines of the faith.
You and I agree on very little Biblical doctrine. That doesn’t mean we can’t be friends, but it does mean I won’t change my mind about what I believe. This may cause you to become frustrated, but it will not change my mind as to what I believe. Whether there is just one person (you) or a dozen on this blog makes no difference, I won’t change my beliefs nor the doctrine which I know to be true regarding the Word of GOD.
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Well I wasn’t talking just about whether you agree with me. I don’t expect you to. I was more talking about cases where you misread someone and then refuse to simply admit you made a mistake.
But I will leave it.
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I resonate to the idea that we have different cultural ways of expressing ourselves. Myself, I also think it goes with the medium — it’s not uncommon to read people being very bold online in ways that they are not in person. (See: flaming blogger in pajamaz).
I like passion, I like conviction, but truth is, I probably treat it as a kind of entertainment. Specifically, it reminds me a lot of particularly aggressive rock: lots of noise and often with a fairly fun back beat to it. But I’m an old guy, with old ears, so I tend to gloss over it. Or change the channels. It’s not the music that inspires me with my wife, or pumps me up for work (although I know plenty for whom the latter does work — this is about me).
A long metaphor: humility can back us away from our rock-n-roll nature. Humility invites us to step outside, go down the hall where we can talk. My rock nature is all too ready to crush the already bruised reed and snuff the smoking wick — but as I go on, I learn that’s not the way of Jesus. Besides, too much rock and I lose my hearing…
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Steveg
It could very well happen that I have misread someone, I’m certainly not perfect.
So often times when I have been accused of just what you are citing, I go back re-read the post or paragraph a few times, and still find that I disagree – then there are times I have made a mistake a big one,– have you never read where I’ve apologized? – I have Steveg….. I want you to know that your apology meant a lot to me, I hope in the future we can get along better, I would like to be your friend.
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Sorry I haven’t been able to continue with the conversation. I had to get back to work. It seems this thread has taken another detour, and I’m very behind for the week, so I’m removing myself from the conversation.
Victoria, I greatly appreciate your fervor and your knowledge of the Word. It’s been fun going back & forth with you. Clearly we will have disagreements, but I really respect you. I look forward to talking with you in future posts.
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Thanks David, I appreciate your kind words. I respect you too, hope you come back again soon.
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#70, harris; that was insightful. i’ll be thinking about that.
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