Why suffering means success
An evolutionary anthropologist is exploring a paradox embraced by Christians for centuries: religious suffering actually strengthens religion. According to an article in the New Scientist:
When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers – even young children – quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment. … The more costly the behaviour, the more likely it is to be sincere: few would willingly give their life for an ideal they did not believe in, and devotees who take vows of poverty or chastity are clearly putting their money where their mouth is.
This is something Christians have understood for a couple thousand years, and a classic argument for the resurrection of Christ: If the tomb was empty not because Jesus rose but because his disciples hid His body, why would those disciples later die for something they knew was a lie?
The article makes a cogent application to the current religious climate:
But if [researcher Joseph] Henrich is right, churches that liberalise their behavioural codes may be sabotaging themselves by reducing their followers’ commitment. This may explain why strict evangelical Christian churches are expanding in the US at the expense of mainstream denominations. “To be a member you’ve got to walk the walk and talk the talk,” says Henrich. “And this transmits deeper faith to the children.”














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back to top40 Comments to “Why suffering means success”
I love the Isaac Watts lyric in the humn, “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross:”
“…Sorrow and love flow mingled down.”
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It’s closely related to the concept of martyrdom and and the incessant demand of the relgious that they are constantly being persecuted and discriminated against. After all, the worse people are treating you, the more you are suffering and the “righter” you must be.
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2. You mean like Judy Blume?
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2. You mean like Michael Newdow?
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Simple nonconformity with a religion’s demands gets translated instantaneously into “religious discrimination”. The recent thread involving the pastor who was regularly clogging residential street parking by having evening meetings is a good example. Several folks here immediately claimed that the zoning people were discriminating against the religion. It seemed to me that the same complaint involving a small business or any other kind of non-profit would in all likelihood have resulted in the same enforcement action.
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Isn’t it funny how this can be couched in pragmatic terms for the liberal churches? You must be a committed Christian to get more followers because if you aren’t well then no one will commit.
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5. I see your point. I, too, often defend the sweeping generalizations I make about billions of people by appealing to what several people on a blog have said.
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Persecution will help strengthen people’s faith only up to a point. The church in Japan was so severely decimated in the middle ages by persecution that the few who survived had to bury their faith so deeply, and were able to practice it so seldom, that it fell into error and heresy. The situation is not fully recovered even today.
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5. Can you show me anywhere, where this had anything to do with parking. If everyone meet somewhere else and rode to the house together would they still need the permit?
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kbells: I don’t know how much it did have to do with parking, but zoning was mentioned and the main reason for a lot of zoning is available parking.
As for “if everyone met somewhere and rode to the house together”, how many busloads are you talking about? Both zoning and occupancy permit law may come into play at some point.
Having a couple (or even a lot) of people over for a party once or twice a year is one thing; doing it every week is another. Assuming this pastor had a church, he should have been conducting this church related function in a structure and area zoned for it.
What bothered me about that thread was the assertion by several (not all) people that this was some kind of anti-christian discrimination.
John M: There was Christian church in Japan during the Middle Ages? What kinds of heresy and error did they fall into?
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Arcadia,
If it was a weekly book club, do you think they should have a special permit?
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“how many busloads are you talking about?”
15 people could fit in one van.
Is there a law against how many parties you can have a year?
Getting together to pray and study a book should be zoned? Should book clubs be zoned?
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I have a neighbor that has parties every weekend. If I have someone over; if they aren’t there by 6pm, they can’t park in front of my house. Inconvenient but no big deal.
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The classic portrayal of success through suffering is the cross. That sets the template for us.
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Arcadia; not: the couple received a written warning that listed “unlawful use of land” and told them to “stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit” — a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
Notice the “stop religious assembly” part. Apparently a secular assembly would be fine; thus religious discrimination.
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Keep a LOG in your neighborhood of how many cars, and how many people enter a home at any given hour. We WANT/NEED TO KNOW!
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Arcadia, keep your pencil and paper handy – take notes, don’t miss one single car who parks and then goes to the entry of any home. If it’s more than 10 people in a week on the same night, you _______________, fill in the blanks.
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This raced to the bottom in 19 posts. But, who’s counting?
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I have a neighbor who has frequent parties–weekly parties in the summer is not unusual. And the cars are enough to park all over his front yard and in front of several houses. At least once nce cars were parked in such a way that I couldn’t have gotten out of my driveway had I needed to (parked on each side of my driveway almost touching it and immediately across from it–I have a narrow driveway and not much room to maneuver). And except for that time when people parked thoughtlessly, the parking simply isn’t an issue, and it must be at least 15 cars (not 15 individuals). Now, the loud music till two or three in the morning, that has at times been an issue, but fortunately he’s now holding his parties earlier in the day, and a bit quieter. Honestly, I don’t see even a potential zoning issue here; a homeowner is allowed to have people come to his house. And 15 people is not sufficient to go beyond basic hospitality, though of course 200 people might be enough to have to change the venue.
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In many religions, people are willing to die for their faith because they assume it to be true. In Islam, martyrdom is the only sure method of getting to heaven and so it has become popular. They have a rude awakening as they blast themselves into eternity.
Christianity is different. According to history, all of Jesus’ disciples were martyred except John. The disciples would have known whether the resurrection was true or whether they had stolen the body and made the rest up. And so, many men will die for what they believe is true, but no one will choose to die for what they know to be a lie.
Christians who follow them do so based on the “more sure word of their testimony”. One can know that the Bible is true. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The strength of Christianity is not based on our willingness to die, but on a deep understanding of meaning of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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I remain skeptical of the home Bible study story. We have only the word of the pastor and the lawyer that there was any religious component to it. I frankly do NOT believe that the police asked questions like “Do you say ‘praise the Lord?’”
If “religious assembly” is subject to some zoning law in San Diego that another kind of regular assembly is not, then that’s clearly unconstitutional and I would hope they would fight it as far into the court system as necessary to get it overturned.
But again, I doubt that’s the case.
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There must be more to this story, because as reported not only are there First Amendment issues, but there may also be violations of RLUIPA, a federal law governing religious land use issues.
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Losing to Barrack Obama doesn’t count as The Cross.
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Forgetting how to spell does.
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Looks like the county overreacted to a parking complaint and may be backing down now.
http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html
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#27 Looks like Arcadia had it right from the beginning …
Islam is a better demonstration of this point than evangelicalism. Moreover, Bush policies of war and torture made sure that fundamentalist muslims have even more martyric cause for recruiting and expanding their base!
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My guess is that there is specific zoning category for “religious assembly” and that is why the code official used that term (if s/he really did). And yes, even places of religious assembly must follow the laws. They may think they are closer to god, but zoning officials know better.
Poker games, now THOSE are sacrosanct. Especially if one of the commissioners plays.
As I think I wrote, living in the immediate vicinity of a church can be a real pain in the neck.
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How is this evolutionary psychology?
Ideas are transmitted verbally or by writing, not biologically. Don’t claim that children have biological inclinations in this respect either. Christianity didn’t conquer Rome by out reproducing.
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This was not a religious assembly, it was a gathering of friends in a private home. Are you saying the state should be able to zone for what we say in our own homes?
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28. Not exactly. If it was just about parking then why bring up the subject of the gathering at all.
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KBells: The article you yourself linked to has the county official explaining that the officer would need to know what kind of assembly it was to know what part of the county code it falls under.
The official wasn’t there and didn’t hear the actual questions, but I still don’t believe the pastor’s account. He says the officer asked “Do you say ‘praise the Lord’” and “Do you say ‘Amen?’”
That’s a very unnatural and specific-sounding way to get at it. It would be much more likely he would just have asked whether it was a religious meeting. I mean, what if it were a Quaker group, or some other Christian group that’s much less likely to use “praise the Lord” as a common phrase? Or a non-Christian religion?
The other important thing, in terms of judging the effects on the neighborhood, would be whether it’s a frequent regular thing or less often. Once a week is obviously more of an effect than once a month or twice a year.
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SteveG. do you really believe the county has a right to zone what you say, read or discuss in your own house? How is this different from a book club or a weekly football game. The only difference I see is that it is about religion.
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KBells: No, of course not. However, I remain skeptical that this was about religion at all. I think it is likely one of those cases where people claim a man was arrested “just for praying in public” and then it turns out he was kneeling in the middle of the street and refusing police orders to get out of the road.
I already said, and since nobody ever seems to pay attention, I’ll say it again: IF the county targeted this group specificially because it was a religious gathering, that’s clearly unconstitutional and should be laughed out of court, if it ever even gets that far. And if that is the case, it will create a truckload of deserved bad PR.
But I believe it is much more likely that it truly is just about traffic flow in a residential neighborhood, where 15 or 20 cars parking on a regular basis can disrupt things for all the neighbors. I do not really believe that the officer asked those questions. I think if it was a book club or a poker game that was drawing that many visitors every single week, the same rules would apply.
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OK, I looked it up: Turns out I’m partly right and partly wrong.
According to the San Diego County zoning regulations, “religious assembly” does indeed require a major use permit if it takes place in a structure zoned for residential use.
HOWEVER, religious assembly is defined as: “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples and churches.”
So now it sounds like a case of overzealous enforcement. It sounds like the law is aimed at people creating actual home churches that could draw dozens of people, not a small discussion group. So ok, I believe the story now, but I seriously doubt it will lead anywhere. I’d bet the county will drop it and maybe refine the wording to prevent a recurrence.
I think that because the other activities that require the major use permit include things such as providing parking services, community recreation or a lodge or fraternal assembly. It’s clearly intended to control large numbers of people packing into a space that wasn’t meant to accommodate so many.
It still isn’t religious persecution.
The various residential zones and the lists of activities that require permits in each one is here:
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z2000.pdf
The definition of “religious assembly” is section 1370 here:
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z1000.pdf
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The story doesn’t bother me as a religious freedom issue as much as a freedom of speech and assembly issue. If they need laws about parking than make laws about parking. The reason people are parking and what they are talking about inside the house is none of the state’s business.
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Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis.
It does sound to me like “religious assembly” is defined too vaguely in the law. If somebody’s using their house as a church or a synagogue or Buddhist temple or mosque or whatever, that’s not practical for a residential neighborhood, especially if it catches on and becomes popular.
But I fully agree, if it’s 10 or 15 people gathering for an informal Bible study and discussion, that should just be considered someone having some friends over. I do hope they will revise the definition to make that clear.
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“Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis.”
Then the law should address the number of cars. As I said before the reason for the cars is none of anyones business.
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This is one reason I can’t get too upset about X or Y which supposedly amounts to Christians being “persecuted” in this country. As much as I mourn the fact that it could result in harm to innocents, maybe some good old fashioned “persecution” is just what the American Church needs.
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