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	<title>Comments on: Why suffering means success</title>
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		<title>By: buddyglass</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429762</link>
		<dc:creator>buddyglass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is one reason I can&#039;t get &lt;i&gt;too&lt;/i&gt; upset about X or Y which supposedly amounts to Christians being &quot;persecuted&quot; in this country.  As much as I mourn the fact that it could result in harm to innocents, maybe some good old fashioned &quot;persecution&quot; is just what the American Church needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one reason I can&#8217;t get <i>too</i> upset about X or Y which supposedly amounts to Christians being &#8220;persecuted&#8221; in this country.  As much as I mourn the fact that it could result in harm to innocents, maybe some good old fashioned &#8220;persecution&#8221; is just what the American Church needs.
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		<title>By: kBells</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429366</link>
		<dc:creator>kBells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 19:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis.&quot;

Then the law should address the number of cars. As I said before the reason for the cars is none of anyones business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then the law should address the number of cars. As I said before the reason for the cars is none of anyones business.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429321</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 15:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis. 

It does sound to me like &quot;religious assembly&quot; is defined too vaguely in the law. If somebody&#039;s using their house as a church or a synagogue or Buddhist temple or mosque or whatever, that&#039;s not practical for a residential neighborhood, especially if it catches on and becomes popular. 

But I fully agree, if it&#039;s 10 or 15 people gathering for an informal Bible study and discussion, that should just be considered someone having some friends over. I do hope they will revise the definition to make that clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I think all of us who live in suburbs benefit from zoning laws that keep our neighbors from doing things that would draw a hundred cars all needing street parking on a regular basis. </p>
<p>It does sound to me like &#8220;religious assembly&#8221; is defined too vaguely in the law. If somebody&#8217;s using their house as a church or a synagogue or Buddhist temple or mosque or whatever, that&#8217;s not practical for a residential neighborhood, especially if it catches on and becomes popular. </p>
<p>But I fully agree, if it&#8217;s 10 or 15 people gathering for an informal Bible study and discussion, that should just be considered someone having some friends over. I do hope they will revise the definition to make that clear.
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		<title>By: kBells</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429306</link>
		<dc:creator>kBells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 11:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The story doesn&#039;t bother me as a religious freedom issue as much as a freedom of speech and assembly issue. If they need laws about parking than make laws about parking. The reason people are parking and what they are talking about inside the house is none of the state&#039;s business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The story doesn&#8217;t bother me as a religious freedom issue as much as a freedom of speech and assembly issue. If they need laws about parking than make laws about parking. The reason people are parking and what they are talking about inside the house is none of the state&#8217;s business.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429278</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 04:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>OK, I looked it up: Turns out I&#039;m partly right and partly wrong. 

According to the San Diego County zoning regulations, &quot;religious assembly&quot; does indeed require a major use permit if it takes place in a structure zoned for residential use. 

HOWEVER, religious assembly is defined as: &quot;religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples and churches.&quot; 

So now it sounds like a case of overzealous enforcement. It sounds like the law is aimed at people creating actual home churches that could draw dozens of people, not a small discussion group. So ok, I believe the story now, but I seriously doubt it will lead anywhere. I&#039;d bet the county will drop it and maybe refine the wording to prevent a recurrence. 

I think that because the other activities that require the major use permit include things such as providing parking services, community recreation or a lodge or fraternal assembly. It&#039;s clearly intended to control large numbers of people packing into a space that wasn&#039;t meant to accommodate so many. 

It still isn&#039;t religious persecution. 

The various residential zones and the lists of activities that require permits in each one is here: 
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z2000.pdf 

The definition of &quot;religious assembly&quot; is section 1370 here:
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z1000.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I looked it up: Turns out I&#8217;m partly right and partly wrong. </p>
<p>According to the San Diego County zoning regulations, &#8220;religious assembly&#8221; does indeed require a major use permit if it takes place in a structure zoned for residential use. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, religious assembly is defined as: &#8220;religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples and churches.&#8221; </p>
<p>So now it sounds like a case of overzealous enforcement. It sounds like the law is aimed at people creating actual home churches that could draw dozens of people, not a small discussion group. So ok, I believe the story now, but I seriously doubt it will lead anywhere. I&#8217;d bet the county will drop it and maybe refine the wording to prevent a recurrence. </p>
<p>I think that because the other activities that require the major use permit include things such as providing parking services, community recreation or a lodge or fraternal assembly. It&#8217;s clearly intended to control large numbers of people packing into a space that wasn&#8217;t meant to accommodate so many. </p>
<p>It still isn&#8217;t religious persecution. </p>
<p>The various residential zones and the lists of activities that require permits in each one is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z2000.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z2000.pdf</a> </p>
<p>The definition of &#8220;religious assembly&#8221; is section 1370 here:<br />
<a href="http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z1000.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z1000.pdf</a>
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429275</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 04:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>KBells: No, of course not. However, I remain skeptical that this was about religion at all. I think it is likely one of those cases where people claim a man was arrested &quot;just for praying in public&quot; and then it turns out he was kneeling in the middle of the street and refusing police orders to get out of the road. 

I already said, and since nobody ever seems to pay attention, I&#039;ll say it again: IF the county targeted this group specificially because it was a religious gathering, that&#039;s clearly unconstitutional and should be laughed out of court, if it ever even gets that far. And if that is the case, it will create a truckload of deserved bad PR. 

But I believe it is much more likely that it truly is just about traffic flow in a residential neighborhood, where 15 or 20 cars parking on a regular basis can disrupt things for all the neighbors. I do not really believe that the officer asked those questions. I think if it was a book club or a poker game that was drawing that many visitors every single week, the same rules would apply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KBells: No, of course not. However, I remain skeptical that this was about religion at all. I think it is likely one of those cases where people claim a man was arrested &#8220;just for praying in public&#8221; and then it turns out he was kneeling in the middle of the street and refusing police orders to get out of the road. </p>
<p>I already said, and since nobody ever seems to pay attention, I&#8217;ll say it again: IF the county targeted this group specificially because it was a religious gathering, that&#8217;s clearly unconstitutional and should be laughed out of court, if it ever even gets that far. And if that is the case, it will create a truckload of deserved bad PR. </p>
<p>But I believe it is much more likely that it truly is just about traffic flow in a residential neighborhood, where 15 or 20 cars parking on a regular basis can disrupt things for all the neighbors. I do not really believe that the officer asked those questions. I think if it was a book club or a poker game that was drawing that many visitors every single week, the same rules would apply.
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		<title>By: kBells</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429268</link>
		<dc:creator>kBells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 03:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>SteveG. do you really believe the county has a right to zone what you say, read or discuss in your own house? How is this different from a book club or a weekly football game. The only difference I see is that it is about religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveG. do you really believe the county has a right to zone what you say, read or discuss in your own house? How is this different from a book club or a weekly football game. The only difference I see is that it is about religion.
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		<title>By: SteveG</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-429035</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 15:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>KBells: The article you yourself linked to has the county official explaining that the officer would need to know what kind of assembly it was to know what part of the county code it falls under. 

The official wasn&#039;t there and didn&#039;t hear the actual questions, but I still don&#039;t believe the pastor&#039;s account. He says the officer asked &quot;Do you say &#039;praise the Lord&#039;&quot; and &quot;Do you say &#039;Amen?&#039;&quot;

That&#039;s a very unnatural and specific-sounding way to get at it. It would be much more likely he would just have asked whether it was a religious meeting. I mean, what if it were a Quaker group, or some other Christian group that&#039;s much less likely to use &quot;praise the Lord&quot; as a common phrase? Or a non-Christian religion? 

The other important thing, in terms of judging the effects on the neighborhood, would be whether it&#039;s a frequent regular thing or less often. Once a week is obviously more of an effect than once a month or twice a year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KBells: The article you yourself linked to has the county official explaining that the officer would need to know what kind of assembly it was to know what part of the county code it falls under. </p>
<p>The official wasn&#8217;t there and didn&#8217;t hear the actual questions, but I still don&#8217;t believe the pastor&#8217;s account. He says the officer asked &#8220;Do you say &#8216;praise the Lord&#8217;&#8221; and &#8220;Do you say &#8216;Amen?&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a very unnatural and specific-sounding way to get at it. It would be much more likely he would just have asked whether it was a religious meeting. I mean, what if it were a Quaker group, or some other Christian group that&#8217;s much less likely to use &#8220;praise the Lord&#8221; as a common phrase? Or a non-Christian religion? </p>
<p>The other important thing, in terms of judging the effects on the neighborhood, would be whether it&#8217;s a frequent regular thing or less often. Once a week is obviously more of an effect than once a month or twice a year.
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		<title>By: kBells</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-428997</link>
		<dc:creator>kBells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>28. Not exactly. If it was just about parking then why bring up the subject of the gathering at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>28. Not exactly. If it was just about parking then why bring up the subject of the gathering at all.
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		<title>By: kBells</title>
		<link>http://online.worldmag.com/2009/05/28/why-suffering-means-success/comment-page-1/#comment-428996</link>
		<dc:creator>kBells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This was not a religious assembly, it was a gathering of friends in a private home. Are you saying the state should be able to zone for what we say in our own homes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was not a religious assembly, it was a gathering of friends in a private home. Are you saying the state should be able to zone for what we say in our own homes?
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