On the death of the wicked
My wife wept when she heard that abortionist George Tiller had been murdered. She cried out and left the sanctuary of our church, perhaps for fear of hearing that God had ordained it, that it was all part of His plan. When a tidal wave kills thousands, or when a child is stricken with cancer, or even when a wicked killer is struck down with unlawful violence, it is hard to hear that this is part of God’s plan to glorify Himself, as if all this bloodshed and misery is what He intended from the beginning.
“‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord God, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live’?” Perhaps more chilling, for a Bible-toting assassin, would be Christ’s promise: “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” Perhaps this is why George Tiller’s murderer did not stand beside his freshly fallen corpse, but fled like a coward. Perhaps as he saw firsthand what it feels like to unjustly take up the Judge’s sword, he felt the cold shadow of it cross over his own neck.
And so now a killer is dead and a murderer imprisoned and God knows how many people grief-stricken or furious or—God have mercy on their souls—exultant. A gunshot took a death merchant from the earth, but who knows what evil it has unleashed?
But worst of all, which is what grieved my wife, is that George Tiller was sent to fall before the judgment seat of God, where even a righteous man must tremble. Whatever might have been for him is ended. Perhaps he would have continued to shed the blood of innocents. Perhaps he would have repented, to the rejoicing of angels. None of that is for us to know.
We can know this, however: George Tiller was fashioned in the image of God and he was cut down by the unlawful hand of man. He is no martyr. But he is not so different from you or I. And where might we go, God have mercy on our souls, were we slaughtered in the midst of our unrepentance?
It is an awful thing indeed to slay a wicked man. Who dares claim that authority? Who aspires to sit in the judgment seat of the Living God? Better instead to pray, all of us, for ourselves and our loved ones and our enemies alike, because all of us will one day give an accounting. God have mercy on those of us who must give that accounting with bloody hands.














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back to top102 Comments to “On the death of the wicked”
Praise the Lord that Tiller will never kill again!
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Well, the murderer did take away any opportunity for Tiller to repent. However, we must all live our lives with the idea that we might be called to account at any moment. God will sort it all out.
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He lived by the sword.
Lord have mercy on him.
In the era of “Plan B” or RU486 what possible good could arise from his execution?
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So what. Repentance was Tiller’s responsibility long before the “murderer” got to him.
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4 was for #2
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Tony, you expressed my thoughts in your words.
“Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” And the sword is never satisfied.
Biana, “Praise the Lord” is usually an expression of joy. There is no joy in the death of this man. His murder was not a righteous act.
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he was ripped out of the womb of his existence
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Good post, Tony. Thank you.
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Adios (6) When I said praise the Lord I clearly said Tiller will never kill again. Why isn’t that something to rejoice in? He won’t be killing anymore babies. Isn’t that a good thing?
Sometimes I wonder if I should believe Christians when they claim to be pro-life. With attitudes like this, folks can pray for the Lord to end abortion all they want. But if his people can’t even rejoice in God’s sovereign Hand in Tiller’s death (regardless of how it happened) then we have no right to expect the Lord to sheathe his sword regarding infanticide. It will continue as long as Christians are idiots about the 6th commandment.
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Are you now going to invade China, the world leader in abortions?
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Perhaps, Bianca, this is an opportunity for all of us to consider our own state of sin and remember that we, too, may be called to account. There’s always that proverbial truck the judge used to talk about.
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From a web site on abortion:
54 countries allow abortion, which is about 61 percent of the world population. 97 countries, about 39 percent of the population, have abortion laws that make it illegal according to the pro-abortion Center for Reproductive Law and Policy in New York.
The Alan Guttmacher Institute reports approximately 22 million legal abortions were reported in 1987.
It is estimated that between four and nine million were not reported, totaling of 26-31 million legal abortions in 1987 alone.
There were a total of 10-22 million “clandestine” abortions, bringing the total worldwide figure to 36 and 53 million abortions.
You have your work cut out for you. Besides converting everyone to Christianity, you have 50 million abortions to prevent. Get to work. Stop lallygallying around posting blog comments. Stop an abortion now!
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While I disagree with Tiller’s actions as an abortionist, no man should have taken it upon himself to remove him from this world. I don’t revel in Dr. Tiller’s death. Sure, I’m glad he can’t kill anymore, but this was not the proper path to venture down.
And Bianca, I agree. As I mature as a Christian, I find that not only am I pro-life about babies, but murderers as well. I fall more on the side of Chuck Colson. Murder is murder, period, and it’s God’s right to judge, not ours. Who are we to end a life? That’s not to say that I’m 100% against the death penalty, but it should be used rarely and only when it’s obvious. But then, who decides that, eh? A hard topic, to say the least.
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#10 Bush designated it our Most Favored Nation.
Who here in 1933 woulda pulled the trigger on the long range sniper rifle had you managed to get Der Fuhrer in your scope cross-hairs? Why or why not?
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The death penalty should be safe, legal and rare. But certain crimes are so evil and vicious (one thinks of the Manson gal who stabbed the 8 mos pregnant Sharon Tate) that anything less than execution would dishonor our memory of the victim(s)
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From the same web site:
China reports the highest number of abortions, with 10,394,500 abortions reported in 1987.
In China a pro-abortions stance has been enforced for many years, but it has been masked in the laws of the provinces. The National law instructs doctor’s to recommend abortion when ever the baby has a serious hereditary disease, a “serious deformity”, or the pregnancy endangers the mothers health [108]. National law also provides for incentives for abortion. As pro-abortion as this is, it is not even close to the provincial laws, where the true aim of the government is obvious.
In provincial law there are many “reasons” set by the province that the state require an abortion. Such “reasons” include “unauthorized pregnancies, failure to obtain birth certificates, or improper timing for a second child. In some provinces you must have an abortion if you are young or unmarried and the state will provide incentives for the poor to have abortions. With such broad laws the provinces are able to require abortions for anyone they choose.
Where do we sign up for the invasion of China? How many of you are boycotting Chinese products?
By the way, homosexuals are not the cause of a large number of abortions. I suspect you have your priorities mixed up a bit.
Remember, if you want me to go away, don’t reply to me or comment on my comments for 30 days, starting today, June 1.
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My reaction was similar to Tony’s wife, one of shock. As Jennimiki said (#13), it was God’s place to remove him from this world, not any man’s. Shouldn’t our reaction be like David’s when hearing of Saul’s death in 2 Sam. 1 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=2+Samuel+1%3A1-15), one of grief, even when the death of one’s enemy betters one’s situation?
Thanks Tony for a great post.
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While the anti-choice movement will issue their platitude of regret over his assassination, in their hearts they’re rejoicing that he’s dead. If we could be a fly on the wall, we’d see them “high-fiveing” each other over Dr. Tiller’s death.
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Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition?
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God bless you, Tony, for you post. And God bless you, Mrs. Tony, for your response.
Last night I blogged about the matter a bit: Lengthy Career Ends.
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18. 19. Y’all don’t believe in miracles, but you do think you can rad other people minds. I hate that this happened. It will hurt the cause.
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The last paragraph of Tony’s article is correct. Who has the authority but God?
Much harm in the world has been done by people trying to help God:
Crusades, witch bruning, lynchings, etc. None of which God ordained. He can handle it in His own time.
This is especially bad because it will give support to so-called “Hate” speech legislation. Look for more legislation against “hate crimes” now. This will evolve into action against “hate speech” so tht if you say something about abortion, homosexuals, Muslims, and everything else but Christians and Jews, you are guilty of hate.
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She cried out and left the sanctuary of our church, perhaps for fear of hearing that God had ordained it, that it was all part of His plan.
I’d flee too, and not go back.
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I have yet to read about any of our modern day John Browns who execute abortionists and not view them as somewhat out of balance. America must be fertile soil for messianic dreamer/reformers willing to employ violence. Paul Hill seemed like the ultimate committed True Believer
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“Perhaps he would have repented, to the rejoicing of angels.”
I tend to think that God would not let anyone die if that person will eventually repent. He knows who will & who won’t.
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23. But did that happen?
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Good post Tony. I don’t think there’s anything else to say.
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Kbells has a good question. Did the pastor indeed say that God had ordained it?
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Good post, Tony. I know that many on this blog don’t want him to be called “wicked” now that he’s dead, but we must grieve for both–the evils of his life and of the way he died.
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I’m a little puzzled,TONY, about your fourth paragraph.
“Whatever might have been for him is ended.”
Did this murderer somehow rob God? If God is sovereign over life and death, if He measured out our days before the foundations of the world were laid, was He somehow surprised by this violent act and Dr. Tiller “died before his time” as you hear people often say after someone’s death?
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Tiller is gone. The merits of that truly late term abortion (the guy practiced abortions for over three decades…. and late term abortions at that.) are academic now. What I would like to see is that people do not automatically assume that the guy the police decided to go after was guilty of the act. Innocent until proven guilty.
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Anlir – you wouldn’t be satisfied with any response from Christians to Tiller’s death. You would disparage regardless of what was said. You’d also complain if you were hung with a new rope.
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Klasko,
I think he might be satisfied if we agreed that Tiller was a martyr to a noble cause, that his practice was good for women across America and that we need to train up more wonderful men like George Tiller. Oh, and if we took personal responsibility for his death, and repented ever using the word “murder” for abortion. Short of that, probably not. We can call this killing murder and condemn it all we want, but until we are willing to acquit Tiller himself of his wickedness, we too share in the blame for Tiller’s murder.
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As news of Roeder’s arrest traveled, Kansas City activist Regina Dinwiddie remembered the day a dozen years ago when Roeder hugged her in glee after trying to frighten an abortion provider by staring him down inside a Planned Parenthood clinic.
“He grabbed me and said, ‘I’ve read the Defensive Action Statement and I love what you’re doing,’ ” Dinwiddie said in a telephone interview. She was a signer of the 1990s statement, which declares that the use of force is justified.
“I said, ‘You need to get out of here. You can get in a lot of trouble,’ ” Dinwiddie recalled.
Dinwiddie said she does not consider death of Tiller, the nation’s most prominent provider of controversial late-term abortions, to be a homicide.
“I don’t think he was murdered. I believe he was absolutely stopped in his tracks and it was long overdue,” Dinwiddie said.
Washington Post.
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SteveG: So they found someone who sympathizes with the killer. I’m a reporter and I know from experience that you can find folks to say just about anything about anything.
But the point is this: How widespread do you think those attitudes are among Christians? Not very, I’m quite confident.
If course you can find sympathizers. That’s easy. But do these people fairly reflect the vast numbers of people who believe abortion is wrong? Hardly.
I’ve not read the entire article, but I’m hoping it contained some balance. ?
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It’s also a strong temptation among those of us in journalism to go after the most extreme voices. They’re shocking, they make a good read. Great quotes, it really punches up the story.
It’s the nature of the beast, I suppose. Your average, mainstream folks with less outrageous views are really quite boring, though they always far outnumber the extremists, of course. It can all result in a very skewed public perception.
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I have no doubt we’ll be doing our own ‘local angle’ on all this today. Will we look for and (secretly) hope to find someone who will say something completely outrageous? Probably.
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Thanks for your “insider perspective,” Donna. Hopefully it takes out a little of the sense that many people have that what is in the news is a statistically accurate portrayal of reality!
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Donna: I am too (reporter/editor, 22 years’ experience).
I don’t think the reporter’s goal was to find an extreme view. This person is someone whose views Roeder applauds, so it helps provide a peek into his mindset.
OF COURSE I don’t think most Christians share that attitude. My point in posting the article excerpt is that some of them do, and those are the ones Roeder was listening to.
I think on such inflammatory issues, toning down the rhetoric is helpful. On both sides.
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Steve: I agree with toning down rhetoric. And I am not saying the quote used in the WP wasn’t valid, especially since the woman had some dealings with this guy. But after reading the the story, I felt it could have been balanced with what I think is a much more common reaction among the pro-life community and Christians in general — that this was a despicable act and we disavow it completely.
It is times like this, by the way, that I wish more newsrooms had more diversity. I believe I may be the only pro-life person here, it becomes human nature to view things threw our own lenses. Thus stories often (I think) lean toward giving credence to the more extremist pro-life voices.
I don’t think it’s intentional so much as a natural reaction stemming from a particular world view held by the writer and supported by virtually everyone he or she works with.
I enjoy your posts because you are not “knee-jerk.” When I disagree with you, I still feel you’re being thoughtful and nuanced. One side is not automatically “always” wrong, the other side always right. And I think you for that.
Following up also on Victoria’s post #40, good scriptures, as well as the one that we are to overcome evil with good.
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‘thank’ you i meant.
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Cheryl,
“I know that many on this blog don’t want him to be called “wicked” now that he’s dead”
what do you mean by this? Is he nuetral now that he is dead?
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Reg,
On another thread, Anlir berated me violently for calling Tiller a murderer, and basically said it was disrespectful to the dead and un-American. I asked him, if the guy who murdered Tiller was himself killed by an assassin, could we continue to call the guy who murdered Tiller a murderer, or would he too be moved into a “no-negativity” zone. He didn’t answer me. Basically, of course, Anlir has spent a lot of time recently praising Tiller’s courage and blah, blah, blah. The issue isn’t really that we can’t speak bad of any dead person, but that he demands we follow his own moral code and accept abortion. But he’s making the excuse that speaking badly of a man the day of his death is somehow inappropriate.
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TONY: But he is not so different from you or I.
The assassin is reported to have been well-known to Operation Rescue.
I’d like to know if the pro-life movement has trouble identifying schizophrenics taking away their guns.
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Adios said:
“There is no joy in the death of this man.”
Then what do you think God meant when He said:
“When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.”
Proverbs 11:10
?
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Jennimiki said,
“As a mature as a Christian, I find that not only am I pro-life about babies, but murderers as well. I fall more on the side of Chuck Colson. Murder is murder, period, and it’s God’s right to judge, not ours. Who are we to end a life?”
Then why does God say, “For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.”
?
I wish Christians would start thinking Biblically before making their opinions public.
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David, the government has the sword, and otherwise only God justly has the power over life and death. I personally think that had Tiller died naturally (with a heart attack, for example), then we could thank God. If he’d been given justice by the state, we could rejoice. But we can never rejoice in murder.
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Cheryl D.,
The passage from Proverbs doesn’t speak of the manner of the wicked one’s death, only of its fact.
You don’t need to rejoice that Tiller was murdered (contrary to God’s will as it is), but don’t be quick to condemn those who are glad that he is free to kill no more.
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Random, your post (No. 16) is the most peculiar negative-option offer I have ever heard: “If you want me to go away don’t respond to my posts.” Why not instead, “If you want me to hang around, tell me so.”
I cannot claim to have read all of your many posts, but it seems obvious that you want us to know you have lived a pretty self-satisfying life for some 60 years which enables you to speak as an authority on matters of faith. Am I to believe there is no God because you tell me there isn’t, or am I merely weak and ignorant to believe in Someone I cannot see, hear, or touch? Neither you nor I can prove the existence of gravity except by the measurable effects on certain objects. So am I to deny gravity because it is not detected by my normal senses? The Christian faith could hardly have survived for some 2000 years if there was no substance to it. Some people — including former atheists — are now believers who were unbelievers. You cannot extinguish the sun by saying it’s just an illusion; neither can you deny God’s existence because He doesn’t fulfill your wishes.
I remarked in another thread (somewhere) that I believe you are a hopeful atheist. Christianity interests you because many wise people believe in it and you are unable to learn its “secret.” I read your comments just as I am unable to resists tearing off a scab: No good comes of it, but I seem unable to resist the temptation.
Keep on posting, there’s hope for you as long as you are interested. But be assured, if you accept Christ’s offer you will be changed.
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Tony, your commentary really struck me. Thank you for that.
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CherylD and others who are calling Dr. Tiller a “murderer” and comparing him to Hitler are just like Rev. Phelps and his gang of “God Hates Fags” that show up at the funerals of soldiers. They have no sense of human decency or honor. A man was murdered yesterday. A wife lost her husband. Some children lost their father. And all CherylD and some other can do is scream “murderer!”. How low-down can they go? And these are people who claim to belong to Christ. Unbelievable.
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Cheryl,
Ok, now I see where you are coming from. Thanks.
I guess that there is no point in arguing with someone who disagrees on a crucial point? When you are not in the same reality, why dispute?
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I haven’t read Anlir’s posts on this thread. I have had enough stress in my life that I do not have the energy for nor can I handle such heavy badgering back and forth. However, I do recall when Anlir wrote about Anlir’s own upbrining and the abuse involved was intense. I have learned a lot about abuse and the lasting affects. I try to see where people are coming from in that regard and if we disagree on basic principles, not to argue.
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Thank you, Tony, for your commentary. Of all of the comments made about this incident, yours puts it all into perspective very nicely.
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Allen Wrench, he’s too chicken to accept the offer. Everyone here has mentioned one time or another that once you take the offer, you “suffer.” Someone who has lived a self-satisfying life, as you put it, probably won’t want tomake the effort, but as you point out, he’s still here……
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Every week George Tiller brutalised and murdered innocent disabled people. Then he went to church and ‘worshipped’ the God who made his victims. I wish he had repented long before. I wish he was not suffering in hell for his crimes. But I am glad that there is one less serial killer of diabled people on the loose. We all need to pray that the children scheduled to be killed by Tiller this week will not be taken somewhere else to be killed.
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Imagine women having to get health care under the protection of Federal Marshals because the anti-choice crazies are threatening to murder them. The so-called “pro-life” movement has lost their collective minds!
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Allen Wrench,
Thank you for your post #50.
There are various curious (in the sense of odd) characteristics to this web site.
For example, a typical line of argument runs something like: I feel and think a certain way; therefore everybody else should feel and think the way I do; if they don’t, there is something lacking or wrong in them. Just try thinking and feeling as I do, the you will feel wonderful.
An obvious implication of this idea is If I learn to think and feel as you do, I will then feel a restless obsession with convincing other people to think and feel as I do.
I hang out with a number of Christians in real life, my neighbor and volunteers in a wood ministry group. They are not particularly “liberals” (in the sense of the cliche of that word so popular here) either in their politics or their religious belief. I don’t “preach” atheism at them. If they asked me about my religious beliefs I would tell them calmly and concisely. They talk about their church and their religious experiences, but they are not obsessively concerned with converting everyone they meet. I would guess they believe in letting their deeds speak louder than their words.
There are some attractive and likable people at worldmagblog. However, the overwhelming impression most participants make is of unhappy and tormented people who don’t find whatever they are looking for in their own churches and and off line life activities. They then ceaselessly harangue other people like themselves and people who don’t agree with them. The overall impression conveyed is not confidence and joy in your faith; it’s restless anguish and unhappiness. You said, I read your comments just as I am unable to resists tearing off a scab: No good comes of it, but I seem unable to resist the temptation.
Think about what you said. The wound and the scab does not come from me. I just provoke the itching in a sore that is already there in you. I am not “selling” a belief system. Your belief system may not be meeting your needs as well as you tell yourself. Trying to get me to adopt your unsatisfying one does not solve your problem.
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Very interesting article. The writer never did tell us whether his wife left crying for nothing. Christianity is not for the faint of heart. I guess my thing is, who can know the mind of God? How can we say whether or not this was ordained of him or not? I mean, I’m not sure I understand the oversensitivity here. When you read the Old Testament, God did not spare women and children from the sword. He commanded the Israelites to kill women and children. God did not spare the first child of David and Bathsheba. Remember as punishment for killing Uriah, God told him their child would not live. I struggled with that when I first read it. David did everything he could to get God to change his mind. And the child still died. And lest we forget, look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira when they came to church with their lying selves. They both dropped dead in church. Who was responsible for that? What I find disturbing is that a man who performed late term abortions was an usher in church. How did that happen? What kind of church or denomination would allow a member like this? I have to give it to the Catholics. They would have ex-communicated him long ago. I don’t advocate violence by any means. But lets not pretend that God has not called some to pick up the sword. I suppose it would have been easier if God just let him die of a heart attack. I don’t know. This is not an easy thing to answer. We are told in Scripture to rescue those being led away to death. I’m reminded of the holocaust and Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s involvement to assassinate Hitler. Was he wrong to try and kill someone that was murdering Jews by the thousands? He got caught and paid the price for his action. But I can admire what he did when you look at the fact that so many others, including Christians looked the other way and did nothing. The holocaust is one of the black eyes on the church. At least I’m glad that Christians have learned their lesson and have gotten involved in actually helping women with keeping their babies. I was a counselor once too. And I know for a fact that if it weren’t for the kindness and love of Christians, more babies would have died. I just pray the work continues.
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Random (10),
In two or three threads where Tiller’s death and abortion are being discussed, you have raised the rhetorical question of “our” (pro-lifer’s’) responsibility re. China’s abortion record:
“Are you now going to invade China, the world leader in abortions?”
You conveniently overlook the vital issue of legitimate jurisdiction.
Just as Tiller’s murderer had no legitimate jurisdiction to judge Tiller and end his life for the thousands of lives he ended, likewise “we” (pro-lifers, the US of A, etc.) have no legitimate jurisdiction to do anything to China in response to their abortion policy and record.
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Why do people refer to abortion as “health care”? Nothing irritates me more than folks who consider abortion “health care”. It is not health care. I don’t understand how killing your unborn baby is a health option? Believe me, the women I counseled were not concerned about their health. They abort because its someone else’s baby other than their boyfried or husband. They abort because they are afraid to tell their Christian Mom and Dad that they are pregnant. They abort because they don’t want a baby “right now” or the birth control failed. These aren’t health issues. Cancer is a health issue. Let’s remember that the abortion industry is unregulated. And you do not have to be a health care professional to run a clinic. They don’t do ultrasounds, and they can’t see what they are doing. They only know the abortion is successful by the body parts they count. They don’t always get everything. And in some cases, women aren’t even pregnant. As a Crisis Pregnancy Counselor I’ve seen many women who underwent botched abortions by so called professionals in these clinics. Many of these “professionals” don’t even have hospital privileges. With the privacy of pills like Plan B or RU-486, you won’t be seeing women escorted into clinics by federal marshals anytime soon.
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BY Bianca 06.01.09 AT 9:00 AM
Praise the Lord that Tiller will never kill again!
As a Christian, I am apalled that the first response to the death of Tiller praises the Lord for Tiller’s death. Even though Tiller was a medical doctor who performed late term abortions, no Christian should sing “praises” to the Lord for his death. That is most certainly blasphemy.
I, too, am appalled by Tiller’s craft. Yet, he is, whether one approves or not, was by profession of faith, a Christian. Christian love demands that we love him in spite of the fact we disagree with his “business”.
Each one of us must rely on the Grace, Mercy and Peace God showers upon us daily in our Lord Jesus. Tiller, me, you and anyone who lives are all in the same boat. The wage we earn is death, save for the death of Jesus Christ.
First John is a great book of the Bible to read at a time like this. “If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us; but if we confess our sin, God who is merciful will forgive our sin and cleanse us of all righteousness.”
As a fellow Lutheran, I know nearly every worship service begins with the service of confession and forgiveness. The announcement of forgiveness spoken by the Pastor are not his/her words, but rather the Word of God spoken to the penitent with no strings attached. Was Tiller a sinner? Certainly. Does he deserve to go to hell for his sin? I’ll leave that up to God, with one caveat. If God is the God of mercy who is abounding in steadfast love is true to Himself, he has removed Tiller’s sin from his sight. After all, didn’t Jesus die for folks like Tiller? Which means like me? like you?
Praise God for Tiller’s death? Absolutely not. Praise God for the end of his torturous work? Most certainly!
But don’t praise God for anybody’s death. That is entirely in the God’s job description. I most fervently praise God for that!
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“Even though Tiller was a medical doctor who performed late term abortions, no Christian should sing ‘praises’ to the Lord for his death. That is most certainly blasphemy.”
“When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.”
Proverbs 11:10
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Anlir and Random Name,
Do you love disabled people? Or do you agree with Tiller that they should be killed?
Let us not forget the very precious disabled children that Tiller had intended to kill, that now have a chance.
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Crystal, I know two women who went for an abortion and didn’t know they were carrying twins. The abortionist only got one. One girl miscarried the twin in gym class, the other woman’s second baby survive and both mother and daughter are now outspoken pro-lifer. The girl named her twin brother Matthew.
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David L.
“I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.” Jeremiah 33:11.
Your dancing on Tiller’s grave is a terrible, terrible witness for your faith. As much as you may hate what he did, failing to love your enemies is itself a sin. You are showing none of the grace of Christ, only gleeful gloating over the death of a human being.
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Reply to #4
__________________________________________________________________
So what. Repentance was Tiller’s responsibility long before the “murderer” got to him.
__________________________________________________________________
Of course repentance was Tiller’s responsibility. Repentance is your (and my) responsibiility as well. I have no doubt that you have repented many times for many sins. Have any of those sins returned after repentance? Do you still struggle with sins of the heart you have already confessed before God? Or perhaps the most poingnant question of all: Have you done anything in your life that others would find objectionable (a sin) that you believed to be perfectly proper?
With a “no” response “you lie and the truth is not in you.”
If I were to trust in my correct judgment (that is, whether or not my actions are Godly), I would far from the certainty of salvation God freely gives in our Lord Jesus. Or did Jesus die for nothing?
It is very unscriptural for me or you or anybody to judge an individual’s conscience (heart). We cannot see into anybody’s heart and soul, only God is able to do that. We cannot judge another’s relationship with God by outward appearances, for only God can judge the heart. For any of us to do so is to make ourselves gods, for we are treading on God’s turf.
Our time to “speak the truth in love” is now. Once death has occurred, it is time for us to entrust to the Lord the soul of the one with whom we disagree. It is no longer our time to judge. Now is the time to leave that up to our Lord and His wisdom. After all, isn’t He much mor intelligent than any of us? Isn’t He the final judge and jury? I comment George Tillman to God’s eternal wisdom. And I pray that his sin, too, is covered by the blood of the Lamb. Otherwise, how can I be certain that God will have mercy on me — or you?
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“However, the overwhelming impression most participants make is of unhappy and tormented people who don’t find whatever they are looking for in their own … off line life activities.”
Oddly, that is the impression I get from most non-Christians here, though you a little less than some.
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KBells: Oddly, that is the impression I get from most non-Christians here, though you a little less than some.
Every online forum I’ve ever participated in has had its own cast of characters. Everyone has the particular issues of interest and positions on them, and the conversation is generally pretty much the same, over and over and over.
We’re all here every day, or most days, filling our roles, saying our expected lines and rarely does anyone do anything unexpected. I can pretty much predict who will take part in any given thread and what they will say.
And yet we must all get something out of it, because we’re always here. Occasionally someone will get bored and drift away, or fed up and storm off in a huff, but otherwise, we all show up to play our roles.
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#64 DAVID L, the verse in Proverbs speaks about the need for society to recognize right and wrong and reward and retribution if it is to be a functioning, lasting society. Vindictive revenge is not part of it.
What Roeder did was usurp the authority of God in order to assuage his own frustration and indignation.
God is not glorified by the murder of Dr. Tiller. Murder does not glorify God. Now, God can and will use this evil act for His good purpose but that doesn’t absolve the murderer of his guilt. And in turn, God will be gloried by the just punishment of Dr. Tiller’s murderer for that is the purpose and authority of government as instituted by God.
Tiller’s death didn’t solve anything. There will be other doctors, some who may feel called to carry on Tiller’s work because of the manner of his death.
This act of fanaticism has cast a pall of suspicion and blame on the people who do the very real work of ministering to the needs of women and the unborn. They are volunteers at crisis pregnancy centers and womens’ shelters. They are people who donate everything from diapers to baby furniture. They are those who seek to aid women and young families in practical ways.
That job is now that much harder. It’s not just a vague, rhetorical commitment to “life” when it’s time to vote or answer polls. It’s a labor of love demonstrated by rolling up their sleeves and helping people where they are.
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Response to 64:
“When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.”
Proverbs 11:10
Your interpretation of Proverbs 11:10 is missing something. Who are the righteous? What does the Bible tell us?
“Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you” (Psalm 143:2).
Deuteronomy 9:6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people (perhaps referring to their unrighteousness?).
Isaiah 64:5-7 (New International Version)
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins.
Romans 3:10-12:
“As it is written:
‘There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one’.”
Romans 4:5-7:
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.”
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Deet (70): Well said.
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Anlir, if post #52 (and others like it on multiple other threads) isn’t a personal attack, then I don’t understand the term. I call a man who has murdered thousands of innocents a “murderer” (an accurate term, not some hyperbolic slam), and that subjects me to that kind of rhetoric?
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SteveG,
Get over yourself. All I did was quote Scripture. I’m not “gleeful” or “dancing.” Murder is always terrible, but to say, as some here are constantly saying, that to rejoice that Tiller’s killing is over is “blasphemy” is absolutely ridiculous and actually borders on the blasphemous itself insofar as it second-guesses the inspired Word of God Itself.
And who are you to talk about “witness”? Who are you to talk about God’s judgment? You don’t believe God separates the sheep from goats, anyway. You don’t believe in the outer dark or weeping and gnashing of teeth. I always find it utterly risible when liberals try to co-opt orthodox religion in order to defame their political opponents. Laughably ironic.
You show where your heart truly is by forever giving the benefit of the doubt to Christ’s enemies while lashing out at those of us who actually try to live by his revealed Word. And so your moralistic finger-wagging here is absolutely meaningless.
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Deet #71,
All I did was quote Scripture, so your argument seems to be with that, not with me.
Anyway, where did I say anything about “vindictive revenge”? Tiller is gone, and although the means by which he is gone are reprehensible, to act, as so many here do, as if it’s sinful to rejoice in this fact is wrong is simply not Biblical. Can we acknowledge, as Christians, that our standarnd and our judge is Christ and His Word, and not the spirit of the age, please?
Anyway, I don’t think your pat interpretation of that verse from Proverbs is necessarily the most accurate one, but whatever. I also don’t think Tiller’s death (not his murder, mind you) doesn’t bring glory to God, because it clearly vindicates the truth of God’s Word in many areas, e.g., God is not mocked, those who live by the sword will die by the sword, wickedness will not go unpunished, etc.
But then again, these are unpleasant truths that American evangelicals are highly invested in ignoring today.
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Kleimoladmk #72,
You commented on the wrong half of the verse.
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Robert George said:
“Whoever murdered George Tiller has done a gravely wicked thing. The evil of this action is in no way diminished by the blood George Tiller had on his own hands. No private individual had the right to execute judgment against him. We are a nation of laws. Lawless violence breeds only more lawless violence. Rightly or wrongly, George Tilller was acquitted by a jury of his peers. ‘Vengeance is mine, says the Lord.’ For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller’s life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our ‘weapons’ in the fight to defend the lives of abortion’s tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit.” (Via First Things)
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DAVID L,
I think I’ve misunderstood your use of the Proverbs verse when you quoted it early on. And I think you’ve misunderstood the point I and some others were making.
While his death was tragic and criminal, I do not mourn the death of Tiller as if his life and work was a betterment to society now lost. And while his murder did not glorify God, his life didn’t either.
The point I (and others) was emphasizing was that no matter how wicked Tiller was, there was no justification for Roeder do to what he did. As I read on another blog recently, “Breaking the law of God (murder) in order to advance the law of God (punishing a murderer:Tiller) is lawlessness.”
You’re right that God is not mocked and that whatever a man sows so shall he reap. Scripture is replete with verses warning the wicked and disobedient that their destruction is sure. For God alone is the True Judge, the only one who metes out perfect justice.
And so we do find assurance in knowing that God will rightly punish those who refuse to repent and glory in their defiance, we do not delight in it. When we see the fruition of a life marked by violence come to such an end, it is more of an occasion for humility than glee.
Unfortunately, Roeder’s actions have allowed the press and the public to ignore what the real debate is about and that is the wrongful killing of babies. And if we can be distracted by how horrible Tiller’s murder was, then we don’t have to look too closely at how horrible abortion is.
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David L. And who are you to talk about “witness”? Who are you to talk about God’s judgment? You don’t believe God separates the sheep from goats, anyway. You don’t believe in the outer dark or weeping and gnashing of teeth. I always find it utterly risible when liberals try to co-opt orthodox religion in order to defame their political opponents.
I don’t? That’s news to me. Where did you get that idea?
I do, actually.
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“Where did you get that idea?”
Possibly from the fact that you identified yourself as a universalist.
So what, you believe Republicans are the goats and Democrats are the sheep? Is that Christ’s judgment?
My final paragraph in 75 still stands.
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What I believe is that it’s nowhere near as simplistic as that. But as long as you’re addressing me with bristling hostility, I think I’ll not get involved.
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SteveG,
You accused me of gleefully dancing on someone’s grave and of gloating over someone’s death. You said I had a terrible, terrible witness and was failing to show the grace and love of Christ to my enemies. Your comments came out of the blue and were directed unlovingly, ungraciously and with bristling hostility to me for no good reason.
Now when I respond in kind, you pick up your ball and go home?
If I haven’t understood what you actually believe, maybe it’s your own fault. Maybe it’s because you spend so much time and energy criticizing, nitpicking and judging the Christians here that you’ve rarely, if ever, made a positive statement about what you do actually believe.
But as long as you feel morally superior to us, I guess that’s all that matters.
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David: You posted a verse from Proverbs, twice, that spoke of taking joy in the death of the wicked. You cited it specifically as a rebuttal to the notion that “there is no joy in the death of this man” (#46 and #49 make that very clear.)
How else are we supposed to take it, if not a defense of being pleased that he’s dead? And while you’re outraged at my comment in #67, you’ve ignored the verse I quoted there.
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77 BY David L. 06.02.09 AT 8:36 AM
Kleimoladmk #72,
“When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.”
Proverbs 11:10
You commented on the wrong half of the verse.
“When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting.”
Proverbs 11:10
Your interpretation of Proverbs 11:10 is missing something. Who are the righteous? What does the Bible tell us?
Though you think I commented on the wrong half of the verse, I was commenting on the entire verse. My question was “Who are the righteous?” Are they Christians? Are they Christians who embrace a pro-life stance? Are they Christians who abstain from drinking, dancing, movies, gluttony, sexual impurity, wearing juwlery, cutting or not cutting their hair? [Of course, now I’ve gone over-board.)
When it is all said and done, no one is righteous before God. We are all “beggars and thieves” (I think C.S. Lewis wrote that) before God. Our righteousness is not what we do, but rather what God has done for us in Jesus.
I do not know if George Tillman was righteous or wicked IN THE EYES OF GOD. That is a question that can only be answered by God. We can say Tillman’s activeties (late term abortions) were evil. We can say Tillman was wrong for performing late term abortions. We can say Tillman sinned in the eyes of God for performing late term abortions. However, because George Tillman was baptized, made a profession of faith and trusted in Jesus as his Savior, from OUR vantage point, we cannot judge him to not be a Christian. We can say we don’t agree with his decisions, his choices and the rest because they are contrary to what we believe Scripture tells us. But it is improper to say he was not “righteous” or not a Christian. My righteousness, your righteousness, every Christian’s righteousness comes from God through Jesus Christ.
Only God can judge the heart. In the end, only God is able to separate the righteous from the unrighteous.
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SteveG,
If you’d like to continue discussing this or anything else, I’d be happy to have you email me: lehr2000 at hotmail.com.
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kleimoladmk,
I disagree with your entire approach. You have constructed a theology than conveniently excuses you from ever having to exercise discernment or to make a negative judgment about anyone else. This is just not proper for a follower of Christ, Who said:
“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.”
Tiller’s life bore rancid fruit. I don’t care if he was baptized, because baptism doesn’t save. Nor does praying the sinner’s prayer, and nor does “committing one’s life to Jesus,” if that Jesus is an idol manufactured to silence a guilty conscience or fit in with the spirit of the age rather than the true Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Besides, if you’re right, then the verse from Proverbs is blasphemous, because none of those in the city can properly rejoice when a wicked man dies, because they could never recognize a wicked man when they see one.
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kleimoladmk – 85
YOU WRITE: “However, because George Tillman was baptized, made a profession of faith and trusted in Jesus as his Savior, from OUR vantage point, we cannot judge him to not be a Christian.”
We will know them by their FRUIT – Where was the fruit?
Paul is making clear he isn’t judging those outside the church, but those who are on the INSIDE of Church. Evil is to be judged within the church,
If a person is professing to be a believer, but their doctrine doesn’t line up with Scripture we can judge whether it be TRUE or FALSE – it’s not complicated.
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David L – EXCELLENT post!
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Thank you, Victoria. I also meant to ask kleimoladmk how he/she knows so certainly that Tillman “was baptized, made a profession of faith and trusted in Jesus as his Savior.” That’s hardly something you can know about a person unless you’re very close to him.
One ironic thing I always notice in comments like kleimoladmk’s is how they self-righteously claim that we can never know another person’s actual standing with God, but invariably they are always sure the person IS a Christian. It always goes like this:
“How dare you question that person’s salvation! We can’t know whether he is saved. He says he is, so he must be!”
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VICTORIA, DAVID L,
Good posts, both.
Church discipline is not even possible without evaluation of members to a certain degree. I think people rely too often on a one-time event or profession of faith as if that’s all that is required. They said a prayer, signed a card, went forward at a crusade so they’re covered. Saving faith proves itself out through obedience.
You have to dismiss a lot of Scripture to say a person whose life’s work was to dismember unborn babies was a follower of Christ.
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Regarding church discipline, so many of the popular evangelical churches nowadays do not “believe” in formal membership, therefore have no authority to discipline members. It’s a way for the church to hold each other accountable, to help nurture straying members back into the fold.
Church discipline is for our good, of course. But in our independent, autonomous society, it’s not viewed very favorably even among Christians anymore, which is unfortunate.
The Christian life is a “life,” a walk, not a mere verbal profession alone or one-time event, as Deet pointed out in Post 91.
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Responses 86-92: David L, Victoria, Deet and Donna J:
I believe you totally missed my point. I did not say the church cannot judge another Christian as being a Christian or not IN THE EYES OF GOD. That judgment belongs entirely to God, not us.
I did say “we can say Tillman’s activeties (late term abortions) were evil. We can say Tillman was wrong for performing late term abortions. We can say Tillman sinned in the eyes of God for performing late term abortions. [And we can even say, due to your apparent lack of repentance, you are removed from the Church.] An addition to my original comment. [See note below] However, because George Tillman was baptized, made a profession of faith and trusted in Jesus as his Savior, from OUR vantage point, we cannot judge him to not be a Christian. We can say we don’t agree with his decisions, his choices and the rest because they are contrary to what we believe Scripture tells us. But it is improper to say he was not “righteous” or not a Christian. My righteousness, your righteousness, every Christian’s righteousness comes from God through Jesus Christ.
Only God can judge the heart. In the end, only God is able to separate the righteous from the unrighteous.
However, because George Tillman was baptized, made a profession of faith and trusted in Jesus as his Savior, from OUR vantage point, we cannot judge him to not be a Christian.
Note 1 Peter 3:21
“Baptism, which is like that water [my note: like the water from the great flood], now saves you [just as it saved Noah and his family.] Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.” 1 Peter 3:21 (GW)
You should realize that I am a Lutheran, who speaks as a Lutheran. While my comments are a bit rambling, and perhaps unclear, I stand by them. Except for the verses taken from 1 Corinthians,
“12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5). (read 2 Corinthians 2:5-9: 5 If someone caused distress, I’m not the one really affected. To some extent—although I don’t want to emphasize this too much—it has affected all of you. 6 The majority of you have imposed a severe enough punishment on that person. 7 So now forgive and comfort him. Such distress could overwhelm someone like that if he’s not forgiven and comforted. 8 That is why I urge you to assure him that you love him. 9 I had also written to you to test you. I wanted to see if you would be obedient in every way.
Most Biblical theologians are in agreement that Paul is referring back to 1 Corinthians 5 and the expulsion of the adulterous man. Clearly he came to repentance, but the Corinthians did not respond as they should have. The did not receive him back into the fellowship of the Christian community, but “locked him in his sin” (of couse my interpretation of the verse) which resulted in helplessness and hopelessness–which come with a harshness that looks only to the law and not the gospel.
I also disagree with Deet: Saving faith proves itself out through obedience. When you get down to spiritual reality, who among us can claim obedience? If anyone thinks so, then for that person, Jesus died a useless death. We can strive, pray and work toward obedience, but it is like the carrot before the pony — we never reach obedience. But Jesus’ death brings us something far better than obedience. He brings us His own righteousness. Righteousness (in the Biblical sence) means God’s righteousness given to disobedient humanity so humanity can stand before God in the perfection found in Jesus.
But enough of this. I think I’ve given you enough to chew on (and more than enough!) And in so doing, probably have proved even more that I am an anti-nomian, while I am, in fact, pointing out the role of the gospel in the Christian community.
Thanks for reading. I don’t have to say, please respond, because I know you will!
Dale
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The baptism that saves is not the baptism of water on the body but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter takes pains to make that clear.
Getting dipped in water doesn’t save you. The belief that it does is the heresy of baptismal regeneration taught by the Roman Catholic Church and others.
As for Tiller’s salvation, all I care to say is that he was a bad tree and that he was unrepentant after being excommunicated from one church because of his abortion practice. The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that one doesn’t sin while the other does, but that the Christian’s life is a life of repenting from his sin.
Besides, in giving the church the responsibility of disciplining its members, Christ essentially commands us to make judgments about people’s souls. If Tiller had repented, he would have been received with joy like the Lost Son in Jesus’ parable. But he didn’t.
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Talk about judgmental! How do you know, Tony, or anyone else that in the minutes before he was slain that he did not repent for his “sins”. How dare you judge him and pretend to know what the relationship was between Tiller and the good Lord. Christians, HA!
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95 BY David L.
The baptism that saves is not the baptism of water on the body but the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Peter takes pains to make that clear.
I beg to differ. Infant baptism ,and adult converts, was the only practice of the Church until the rise of the various Baptist sects and their offspring. The concept of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a new theology which was begun by the various Baptist sects and their offspring.
I understand the reasoning behind the novel understanding and approach. It happens all to frequently. That is, the baptized abandon their faith in the pursuit of the pleasures of the world, in defiance against a “Christian” church which has become legalistic and law-bound, and in defiance of the parental or grandparental rule “You must go to church, whether you like it or not.” All of this, of course, undermiines the clear Word of God.
Further more,
“The belief that it does is the heresy of baptismal regeneration taught by the Roman Catholic Church and others.” David, by that flippant remark, you have condemned all Christians prior to the reformation “heretics” and all Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Orthodox and Lutheran Christians as “heretics”. That is pure arrogance!
When you put the Biblical teaching of Baptism “getting dipped in water [as you irreverently speak of God's action by water and the Word] doesn’t save you,” you, sir, are speaking heresy. I will continue to maintain that the Word of God in 1 Peter 3:21 does, indeed speak of being “dipped in water” for salvation.
May I remind you of Jesus’ institution of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism? “18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ?19? Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in ?a? the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ?20? and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Let me draw your attention to verse 9: “baptizing them in ?a? the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Hear Jesus clearly tells us that baptism is given in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Not only the Holy Spirit.
The only exception to this invitation to be baptized is found at the end of Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentcost: And Peter said to them, ? “38 Repent and ?be baptized every one of you ?in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive s?the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For t?the promise is for you and ?for your children and for all vwho are far off, everyone ?whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is referred to in only a few places in Scripture. One useage which is relevant to our dialog is: “Then Peter said, 47 ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have’.” Note the order. These people first received the Holy Spirit, then they received baptism with water. If being baptized by the Holy Spirit creates Christians, then why does Peter write, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water?”
As I understand the concept of the baptism by the Holy Spirit, this refers to the primary function of the Holy Spirit. That is, His work of sanctification, or enabling Christians to strive toward serving God in words and in actions.
As for Tiller’s salvation, all I care to say is that he was a bad tree and that he was unrepentant after being excommunicated from one church because of his abortion practice. The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that one doesn’t sin while the other does, but that the Christian’s life is a life of repenting from his sin.
Besides, in giving the church the responsibility of disciplining its members, Christ essentially commands us to make judgments about people’s souls. If Tiller had repented, he would have been received with joy like the Lost Son in Jesus’ parable. But he didn’t.
Your paragraphs quoted above distort the clear intention of excommunication. We do not judge “souls but actions. If it were a judgment again a person’s soul, he would surely be damned to hell. “22 Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” (John 20:22-23); and 18 “18 I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Mat 18:18).
Permit me to read your mind. The previous verse reads, “17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17). Jesus instruction is clear. “Treat him (the one who refuses to repent) as you would a pagan or tax collector.” Jesus always honored the pagans and tax collectors as the one’s who were particularly invited to receive His forgiveness. Jesus had a very loving heart for these social outcasts. This is surprising because one would expect Jesus to give the religious leaders the greater attention. But he knew the hardness of their hearts, and went to bring the Gospel of Peace to the most unlikely af all, the pagans and the tax collectors.
Finally, let you remind you of my primary point when I joined this dialog. We cannot read the mind of God. Neither you nor I cannot say “If Tiller had repented, he would have been received with joy like the Lost Son in Jesus’ parable. But he didn’t.” How do you know Tiller did not repent? Can you read his mind? Can your read God’s mind? Where in Scripture are we given the authority of judge whether or not a brother or sister in Christ “truly repented”?
As always, may God’s peace rest and remain with you always.
Dale
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David:
Sorry to add more to my already too long response, but I shall.
As for Tiller’s salvation, all I care to say is that he was a bad tree and that he was unrepentant after being excommunicated from one church because of his abortion practice. The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that one doesn’t sin while the other does, but that the Christian’s life is a life of repenting from his sin.
No doubt he was a “bad tree”. Aren’t you also a bad tree? Do you consider yourself above those Christians who acknowldge and confess to be sinful from birth, and continue to sin against God and neighbor by thought, word and deed?
“He was excommunicated from the church.” What gives you the authority to declare that he was excommunicated from the church? Is this pronouncement your own? The authority to excommunicate is given to the congregation where Tiller had his membership. As far as I can tell, he was not excommunicated. After all, last Sunday he was an usher for the worship service. A very unlikely scenario had this congregation excommunicated him.
God be with you through all your days.
Dale
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Dale: I appreciate your thoughts here, and largely agree. Are you Roman Catholic? I am not but my oldest and best friend is devoutly so.
One word of advice for posting, if I may: When you quote others, especially if the quote comes in the middle of your own post, it helps to set the quote off somehow. I use HTML tags to put quoted material into italics. Others use the HTML blockquote tag for a similar effect. If nothing else, you could insert some symbol like ##### to designate the start and end of a quote of someone else.
It helps make it clear at a glance which words are yours and which come from the post you’re responding to. Without that, it can become confusing, especially for people who didn’t see or remember the post you’re referring to.
So for example, in #96 we encounter this:
As I understand the concept of the baptism by the Holy Spirit, this refers to the primary function of the Holy Spirit. That is, His work of sanctification, or enabling Christians to strive toward serving God in words and in actions.
As for Tiller’s salvation, all I care to say is that he was a bad tree and that he was unrepentant after being excommunicated from one church because of his abortion practice. The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that one doesn’t sin while the other does, but that the Christian’s life is a life of repenting from his sin.
Besides, in giving the church the responsibility of disciplining its members, Christ essentially commands us to make judgments about people’s souls. If Tiller had repented, he would have been received with joy like the Lost Son in Jesus’ parable. But he didn’t.
Your paragraphs quoted above distort the clear intention of excommunication. We do not judge “souls but actions. If it were a judgment again a person’s soul, he would surely be damned to hell. “22 Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” (John 20:22-23); and 18 “18 I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Mat 18:18).
….
It’s more clear what’s what like this:
As I understand the concept of the baptism by the Holy Spirit, this refers to the primary function of the Holy Spirit. That is, His work of sanctification, or enabling Christians to strive toward serving God in words and in actions.
As for Tiller’s salvation, all I care to say is that he was a bad tree and that he was unrepentant after being excommunicated from one church because of his abortion practice. The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is not that one doesn’t sin while the other does, but that the Christian’s life is a life of repenting from his sin.
Besides, in giving the church the responsibility of disciplining its members, Christ essentially commands us to make judgments about people’s souls. If Tiller had repented, he would have been received with joy like the Lost Son in Jesus’ parable. But he didn’t.
Your paragraphs quoted above distort the clear intention of excommunication. We do not judge “souls but actions. If it were a judgment again a person’s soul, he would surely be damned to hell. “22 Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven” (John 20:22-23); and 18 “18 I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Mat 18:18).
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SteveG
Thank you, kind sir, for your suggestions. I was trying to figure out how to differentiate my thoughts from the original author’s thoughts, especially since I am HTML illiterate, and the coment section doesn’t show me how to do italics, and the like.
Note to self: Always remember . . . look for the simplest solution first!
In answer to your question, I am not Roman Catholic, but a Lutheran pastor. That accounts for much of the difference of opinion I have with some of the other commentators.
Dale
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Italics are easy. Use the angle brackets (the symbols above the comma and period on your keyboard.) Use an i inside the angle brackets to start the italics and /i to revert to normal type.
It looks like this, just use the angle brackets instead of the parentheses I’ll use to demonstrate.
(i)This text will appear in italics.(/i)
Done correctly: This text will appear in italics.
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Dale, yes, Lutherans do believe in baptismal regeneration . . . which is why I could never consider being a Lutheran. I am a Presbyterian, and we don’t.
Tiller had been (rightly) excommunicated by a previous church. And no, there was no evidence that he was a Christian; it’s fair to assume he was not, baptism or no. BTW, striving too hard to say, “Yes, he was a sinner, but so are you” is nonsense. His fruit was the very opposite of what a believer’s should be. By this argument, one needn’t even strive to live a holy, obedient life, because “no one is perfect” and anyway, “I’ve been baptized.” This is completely contrary to Scripture on so many levels.
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kleimoladmk,
Responding to all your many errors-Biblical, historical and theological (not to mention personal)–would constitute a part-time job, at least. Sorry, but I have neither the spare time nor the inclination to do so right now.
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