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Judge: Graduation at church OK
A federal judge ruled yesterday that a Wisconsin school district may continue to hold its graduation ceremonies at a Christian mega-church because the location doesn’t necessarily make it a religious event. The decision followed a lawsuit filed by Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) on behalf of students, alumni, and parents who are not Christians and were displeased with the arrangement.
“Graduation should be a joyous occasion for all students and their families,” said AU Senior Litigation Counsel Alex J. Luchenitser, who argued the suit before Judge Clevert on May 29. “We’re disappointed that students in these schools will have to submit to a religious environment, where they continuously face an enormous Christian cross, as the price of attending their own graduations.”
Added Luchenitser, “We will continue our fight to stop schools from forcing students to go to church in order to graduate with their classmates. We are optimistic that higher courts will declare this practice unconstitutional in the future.”
Elmbrook School District officials argue however that holding the commencement ceremonies at Elmbrook Church for the past several years has been a practical solution to provide comfortable seating for up to 3,200 people. AU plans to appeal the ruling.
back to top72 Comments to “Judge: Graduation at church OK”
So obvious that the counselor has no idea what the US Constitution says: CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW……. et al.
Wow, what a putz
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Several years back about 4 soldiers perished on a foggy day when their helicopter hit a high radio tower guy wire. Obviously with four men (some so close to retiremt) there would be lotsa folks attending the memorial service. There was no chapel on Ft Hood big enough to hold the expected mourners.
Luckily, the megachurch Christian House of Prayer (CHOP) came thru. Not sure how this could have worked if using the CHOP facilities had been off limits.
If churches want to make their facilities available rent free (as may be the case in many instances, or cheaper than any other rental price) what a great “outreach” to their community!
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It amazes me what some people will complain about. Often times (in the South) graduation is held at the school football stadium. It often happens that it rains. Many times churches are the best solution. If the biggest building in my community was a synagogue or a mosque I would be all kinds of STUPID to refuse to go. Perhaps they ought to hold a few graduations outside in the rain and that will change peoples minds.
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As a Christian I have attended services in Jewish synagogues. I have been inside a Buddhist temple and inside a mosque when it was empty.
No harm ever came to me as a result.
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It should be up to the majority of the parents and if the minority don’t want to come, don’t come.
And I would say that if the minority were Christians who didn’t want to go in a Mormon temple or something.
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Common sense, logic and reason should prevail. If this is the only building big enough to handle the number of people required, why would you anyone object to that? Well, we know why….
IT’S A BUILDING!
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NJL, unfortunately, lots of people, including Christians, think you’re going to church just by enteringa building. That’s what this is about.
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I wonder, are Christians the only group left in America who are generally accepting of diversity and tolerant and respectful to others?
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Every once in a while a common sense Judge appears on the stage. Of all the multitude of things that can harm a thin skinned person, walking into a church building is not one of them.
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If the megachurch pastor participated in the graduation ceremony by addressing the crowd or his staff otherwise served in some quite visible way as “hosts,” then I could agree with the ACLU on this one. But the bare use of this facility for an entirely secular purpose isn’t establishment.
I would think the ACLU would enhance its credibility by occasionally turning down cases like this one. But then again, this is the ACLU …
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er, AU, not ACLU.
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Around here, the high school I coach at it holds its graduation in one of the large liberal churches: ornate enough, but not an in-your-face Christian space. With the number of secularist families at school, probably a good place to hold it. I’ve been trying to convince a local Evangelical church to hold a Baccalaureate service, but so far to no avail.
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Drama Queen Syndrome.
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The church and the school district could be more accommodating by removing the Bibles, etc. and covering up the cross. I’m sure a Jewish student, Muslim student, and the non-religious students would appreciate not being forced to have their graduation picture taken underneath a gigantic cross.
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A purely secular program held in a building large enough to accommodate the guests, which happens to be a church. These students are not being forced to go to “church” by any stretch of the imagination.
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#14 – For crying out loud! It’s a building! No one’s forcing anyone to attend a religious service. This is only a problem for thin-skinned people with way too much time on their hands.
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“I’m sure a Jewish student, Muslim student, and the non-religious students would appreciate not being forced to have their graduation picture taken underneath a gigantic cross.”
Yeah.. I could sure see them covering up their religious/non-religious symbols for Christians now, couldn’t you?
NOT.
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Christians wouldn’t care. The church isn’t about the building.
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There is no building in my town–Christian or otherwise–large enough to hold our high school graduation. But if it was in mega-atheist building I would not be phased:)
The problem is that some religions believe in sacred space. Many stripes of Christianity do not. In “The Color of Water” a girl was not allowed by her Jewish parents to attend her graduation because it was in a church. Not sure some Muslims would allow their children in to a Jewish synogague for a graduation.
Common sense and sensitivity need to abound. I’d rather stand in the rain to have everyone there than to have kids miss their day.
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#14, “The church and the school district could be more accommodating by removing the Bibles, etc. and covering up the cross.”
No need to remove the Bibles. Just stick labels on their visible sides saying “Das Kapital” and all will be fine.
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I don’t have any serious objection to it being in a church building. I just think they should be accommodating to the students and their families who are of varying faiths (or no faith) and the event is supposed to be non-sectarian.
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I predict that this thread will exclusively be about whether this constitutes a violation of the separation of church and state, and this issue will be debated hotly from both the liberal side and the conservative Christian side.
Notably absent from my fellow conservative Christians will be any suggestions or discussion about the separation of school and state.
Let the pagan statists have their pagan statist schools. (And churches, stop renting your buildings out for their godless graduation ceremonies.) Come out from among them and be ye separate!
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Has the school district considered the gymnasium? That’s where most schools around here hold graduation. And this is a religious area! There just aren’t any big enough churches for the crowd.
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Hey Arcadia, where are you? Weren’t you saying something the other day about how prone religious people are to imagining discrimination?
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Isn’t anybody worried that graduating in a church means being Raptured?
Slightly more serious, this is serious drama queen territory. Whomever whines the most wins. (That is, loses.)
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“Isn’t anybody worried that graduating in a church means being Raptured?”
I only means that if the rapture happened during the graduation the complainers would than have the building to themselves.
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I don’t know, Adios. There were a lot of things I didn’t do growing up because of the church I attended. I didn’t and don’t now feel deprived. We all make choices for our beliefs.
(KBells, LOL.)
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I have to admit, I would not attend a graduation or anything else in a mosque, a Buddhist temple, or any sort of place of worship where it was specifically designed to be a place of worship of a false god-
Strange how people can sit in the rain and watch a baseball game, it can be snowing while everyone sits through football.
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Victoria: Whatever our differences, you are unquestionably consistent. So do you understand how a Muslim or Buddhist might feel if s/he wanted to attend a child’s graduation but could only do so in a false god’s place of worship?
And, I am curious. Would you allow your child to attend his/her own graduation were it in a mosque?
And I do think I agree with your implication that the reasonable solution here is have such an event outdoors.
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No my child would not be attending a graduation in a place of worship which prayed to a false god.
In this country we are all free to worship as we please, in the same way NO ONE should be made to EITHER/OR – to attend a ceremony such as a public school graduation, in a temple, church mosque, shrine, etc, or simply miss their graduation.
I have strong beliefs as do many others, and I wouldn’t sacrifice them, nor should I have to, just in case it might rain –
Some of the most prestigious universities hold there graduations outdoors – I see no need to make high school graduations and different.
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Victoria,
I think this is definitely a “meat sacrificed to idols” kind of issue. Can you explain a bit more why your scruples wouldn’t permit you to attend a graduation at a mosque?
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Rostin,
I thought I had explained my reasons. Being in a place which is used for worship to a false god would not be something I would do, my allegiance to the LORD would stop me – it has nothing to do with “meat sacrificed to idols” – I would never knowingly eat meat or anything else which had been sacrificed to idols.
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Arcadia, you are consistent, too. We don’t get everything we want in life, and if in a town the only place large enough for a graduation is the church building, if you want to go because it’s a church, don’t go. I’m sorry that a few might not be able to attend for whatever reason, but common sense says you do the best you can with what you’ve got. It’s a building. Get over it or stay home. No one is violating the Constitution here — there is no establishment of a specific religion by the government, it is not endorsing one over the other, and the function is not religious in nature.
I’m not sure I would want to go into a mosque or a Buddhist temple for this purpose, but I also wouldn’t whine about it either. I’d have to decide what was important to me. But to force a town to spend money it doesn’t have is insane.
And Victoria is right about knowingly eating food sacrifice to idols, too. I was given food from a Hindu temple and I threw it out.
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I’m missing a “don’t” at the beginning of line 3.
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Victoria,
I apologize if this seems patronizing, but I intended “meat sacrificed to idols” to be a reference to 1 Cor. 8. I only mention it because it’s hard for me to see how your scruple about entering mosques (or literally eating sacrificed meat) is not the kind of thing Paul was talking about, there.
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#28
This narcissistic personality salutes another.
Let’s do the dozens. Victoria, you are a bigger narcissistic personality than my aunts, though probably not a worse one than my grandmother.
One of these days, Victoria, you won’t get any more mileage than I will. You won’t be “reborn” that time. You will be dead, gone, finished. Deal with it.
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Rostin
I’ve made it as plain as I can as to what I believe. I know what your reference is, but my stated belief still stands, I would NEVER eat meat KNOWINGLY sacrificed to idols.
You are trying to mix and match entering a place of worship which worships false gods and food offered to idols – it doesn’t work, either way I wouldn’t be involved.
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Victoria,
Don’t get me wrong, you are welcome to your scruples. But I am not “mixing and matching” anything.
According to v.10: “For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?”
The issue Paul addressed was not limited just to eating, but included eating in the temple itself. I’ve heard/read more than one commentator suggest that Paul might even have been writing about socially taking part in pagan festivals. Again, you are obviously welcome to your scruples, but I think the bible makes it abundantly clear that there would be nothing essentially wrong with going to a mosque for a high school graduation.
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Somehow I don’t think conservative Christians would appreciate their kid’s official graduation picture having the Islamic symbol hanging over it, or being told that they have to remove their shoes before entering the Mosque for the graduation ceremony, or being told that the women in the family are required to sit behind a screen where they could only hear, but not see, the graduation ceremony.
It’s fine to have a public school graduation ceremony in a church, mosque or temple. But it should be non-sectarian, and free of religious icons and symbolism.
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Rostin,
I don’t believe for one single minute that Paul took part in pagan festivals.
The following passage of Scripture is very helpful in understanding.
“The apostle applies this to feasting with idolaters. Eating food as part of a heathen sacrifice, was worshipping the idol to whom it was made, and having fellowship or communion with it; just as he who eats the Lord’s supper, is accounted to partake in the Christian sacrifice, or as they who ate the Jewish sacrifices partook of what was offered on their altar. It was denying Christianity; for communion with Christ, and communion with devils, could never be had at once.”
Matthew Henry
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I am ssssssoooooo glad that we have federal judges to arbitrate over what we can and cannot say and what buildings we can and cannot use. A Federal Thought Police is sssssssoooooo in line with the First Amendment.
There should be a 1-800 number we can call if we think we may be doing something religious that the state might not approve of. We could also use it to turn in our comrades who don’t comply.
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Victoria, if you are covered in the blood of Christ, then you need not fear going into a building that is used to worship other gods. Also, God is pretty smart. He would realize that you went there for the graduation and not to practice idolatry. I am pretty sure that He would not hold it against you.
If we really believe that our beliefs are true and other beliefs are false, we have nothing to fear from them or from being around them.
Anlir, your post presents another good reason to have the ceremony in a church. A church would not put the same restrictions on people that a mosque would. (Besides, most mosques have nothing to sit on. Everyone would be on the floor.)
The same is true of people who disbelieve Christianity. If you don’t believe in Jesus or in God, then how can any symbol of them harm you? How can a building where people worship something that you think is nothing bring any harm to you?
I do not think I have ever heard a liberal explain how seeing a cross hurts them. All they can say is that they don’t like it. They should just ignore it.
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I used to go to a church that met in a Masonic Hall that they rented on Sundays. It’s just a building.
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Kyle A – 42
The reasons I gave are my beliefs, how you feel about the subject doesn’t have anything to do with my decision.
YOU WROTE: “I am pretty sure that He would not hold it against you.”
Kyle, that’s one of the problems, YOU DON’T KNOW, you’re guessing -
Honoring the LORD Jesus Christ is far more important to me than a graduation, or any other sort of event that would be held in a place which was used for worship to a false god.
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What is difficult for people is to accept that the times have changed and we are no longer a monolithic country when it comes to religion. Yes, at one time it was non-controversial to have a graduation in a Christian church. But public schools now have students and families of many religions and no religion now, and they cannot discriminate against them. Just because the majority is Christian (or any other faith) doesn’t mean the minority has no rights. Conservative Christians in particular have had a hard time realizing they are no longer the only kid on the block. At one time they received preferential treatment in public policy and the law. But America has become a religiously pluralistic country, with a growing non-religious community. As difficult as it is to lose that preferential treatment, it is never-the-less necessary.
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Victoria,
I have to admit to be somewhat flummoxed by Henry’s comments. Verse 28 specifically says, “eat not for his sake that showed it”. To Paul, it’s a matter of conscience, as he said in ch. 8, not a matter of “denying Christianity”. I think that comes out even more clearly if you consult a more modern translation.
From the ESV:
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Rostin,
There is no reason to be confused. I’m happy with the translation that I use, and I am satisfied with exactly what I would do if I were put in the position of going into a worship building that was used to worship false god/gods.
Rostin, this isn’t going anywhere, we don’t agree – let’s leave it there.
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Victoria,
The reason I’m confused is that in v. 29, Paul identifies eating food sacrificed to idols as something that is a matter of Christian liberty and concern for the weak consciences of others. That Henry drew from that his rant about denying Christianity and having communion with devils is very curious.
But, maybe you’re right, and we should stop.
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I think the deacons ought to pass the collection plate around.
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Rostin
You might think it clever to call Matthew Henry’s Commentary a “rant” but your comment is disrespectful –
20. I would not that ye . . . have fellowship with devils–by partaking of idol feasts (1Co 8:10).
21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord–really and spiritually; though ye may outwardly (1Ki 18:21).
cup of devils–in contrast to the cup of the Lord. At idol feasts libations were usually made from the cup to the idol first, and then the guests drank; so that in drinking they had fellowship with the idol.
the Lord’s table–The Lord’s Supper is a feast on a table, not a sacrifice on an altar. Our only altar is the cross, our only sacrifice that of Christ once for all. The Lord’s Supper stands, however, in the same relation, analogically, to Christ’s sacrifice, as the Jews’ sacrificial feasts did to their sacrifices (compare Mal 1:7, “altar . . . table of the Lord”), and the heathen idol feasts to their idolatrous sacrifices (Isa 65:11). The heathen sacrifices were offered to idol nonentities, behind which Satan lurked. The Jews’ sacrifice was but a shadow of the substance which was to come. Our one sacrifice of Christ is the only substantial reality; therefore, while the partaker of the Jew’s sacrificial feast partook rather “of the altar” (1Co 10:18) than of GOD manifested fully, and the heathen idol-feaster had fellowship really with demons, the communicant in the Lord’s Supper has in it a real communion of, or fellowship in, the body of Christ once sacrificed, and now exalted as the Head of redeemed humanity.
Jameison-Faussett-Brown Commentary
Are you a Born Again Believer Rostin? Do you belong to or affiliated with an Evangelical Church?
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Victoria,
Do you want to quit or not? If you want to continue, please stick to the point. We’re talking about what the Bible says, not whether or where I go to church. If you are that curious about it, ask me again at another time and in another context. I’m not planning on going anywhere anytime soon. At the moment, it seems like little more than a prelude to an ad hominem argument.
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Rostin,
Asking a question as to your beliefs shouldn’t compromise your logic or reason. “Ad Hominem” doesn’t apply, in fact it goes against Scripture in this case.
As a Born Again Christian I am ALWAYS willing to answer what I believe -
So now you are having a problem with Matthew Henry’s Commentary and perhaps Jameison-Faussett-Brown Commentary? And you also aren’t comfortable giving your denomination, church affiliation, or more importantly if you are a Born Again Christian?
Interesting………..
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Victoria,
My wife was invited to a teacher appreciation dinner at the local LSD church. She was sick for 3 days. She still believes it was the evil in the building that made her sick. You couldn’t get her to enter that building again for any reason.
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Lloyd –
I wouldn’t argue with your wife, I too believe we are to separate ourselves from that which isn’t of GOD – I believe we are to stay away from evil, especially when we know its right in our path.
I hope you don’t take offense to what I have posted on the other thread, education is very important, but I don’t want to hurt another brother in Christ.
What denomination or affiliation are you and your wife?
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Lloyd,
I just remembered something; a Christian man and I whom I dated before getting married, visited/toured one of the biggest Mormon temples in Los Angeles – It was the strangest feeling, I couldn’t wait to leave, I knew I was in a place which I shouldn’t have entered.
The whole experience was strange. I would never go back.
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VICTORIA,
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Victoria,
No offense taken.
I was raised Southern Baptist, but switched to PCA when I married my wife in “96. I really like the level of Biblical teaching from our Elders. We attend a large PCA church here in Colorado Springs. (Village 7 Pres) Conservation and reformed!
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Good night all.
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Rostin: Uh oh, the Grand Inquisitor is on your case.
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Thanks Lloyd – I enjoy your posts –
God bless you
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I haven’t read the entire thread. I’m tired.
But, I’m going to agree with Anlir here.
If the church is being used as a free-rent, large building for a secular graduation, there is no reason not to cover up the cross with some sort of school logo or something.
I have to say that I did something similar when I worked at the Orthodox Jewish school. I had a fish on my van, which they needed to borrow to drive around town delivering special baskets for a Jewish holiday.
No one asked me to, but I covered up the fish symbol.
It was respect…or meant to be. And, that’s how they took it. They thanked me, even though no one had dared to ask me or even suggest it.
I did more for the cause of Christianity that day by showing respect for them, then had I boldly demanded the FISH be shown to the whole world.
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Having said the above, though, I am going to agree with Adios and Victoria that the graduation would better be held outside…rain or not.
My high school graduation was outside (of course, being California, it was beautiful out.)
But, when I worked at the Orthodox Jewish School I learned that Orthodox Jews will not step into a church building. So, they would not be able to go to the graduation.
And, some people do attach significance to a building.
And, people do watch football out in the rain.
So, bring the umbrellas, and head for the nearest football field!
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I did more for the cause of Christianity that day by showing respect for them, then had I boldly demanded the FISH be shown to the whole world.
What do they call that?
A good start.
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Victoria,
And you also aren’t comfortable giving your denomination, church affiliation, or more importantly if you are a Born Again Christian?
Interesting………..
And now I see that I was completely right not to answer. You aren’t just interested in knowing, but in using what I say (or don’t say) to make insinuations about me as a person. Classy.
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And it is always possible that the people who are non-Christians can have a little respect for the church which is allowing them to use their property. Why should a church remove its cross? You leftys have tolerance for anything but the cross. Deal with it. It’s not going away.
And the town has the option of not renting the church. No one is forcing them to rent the church building, but the building is what it is.
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Victoria (52): As a Born Again Christian I am ALWAYS willing to answer what I believe …
Frank: … except for when you’re NOT!
(When I read that claim, I shot a Fruit Loop through my nose!)
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You leftys have tolerance for anything but the cross. Deal with it. It’s not going away.
Regardless of your typically inane diagnosis of “leftys,” the objection to the cross is only because it’s a church. If they were holding it in a mosque or synagogue or Buddhist temple, it would be good to cover those religious symbols too.
Why? Because the graduation is a secular ceremony involving students of various religious beliefs. You rightys have a firm belief in religious freedom — right up to the point where non-Christians exercise it. (See, I can be inane too.)
I agree with those saying it should be held outdoors at the football stadium or somewhere, if the school doesn’t have any indoor facilities large enough.
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The Cross of Christ represents where Christ died for our sins. I would be ashamed of any church who would cover it up.
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Matthew 21:13
When Jesus Christ made that statement it was in relation to the money changers, but HIS house is a house of prayer, it’s not the place to cover up what it represents. One must also remember that if you cannot pray to the GOD of the Bible in Jesus name in HIS house, it would be in opposition to what the church stood for -
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Rostin,
If it bothers you to answer as to your beliefs about Jesus Christ that’s fine, but saying – - “You aren’t just interested in knowing, but in using what I say (or don’t say) to make insinuations about me as a person.” – - is nothing more than an excuse. You are the one making “insinuations” I had/have no idea what you stand for or believe.
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Well, the interesting thing is that the early church did not use the cross as a symbol of Christianity. They used the Ichthys (Fish).
There was even a huge debate later about whether the cross symbol was appropriate at all.
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TRS
You are right about the sign of the fish, but most churches today use the Cross.
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SEPARATION OF RAUNCH AND STATE
(It’s still legal – and always God-honoring – to air messages like the following. See Ezekiel 3:18-19. In light of government backing of raunchy behavior (such offenders were even executed in early America!), maybe the separation we really need is the “separation of raunch and state”!)
In Luke 17 in the New Testament, Jesus said that one of the big “signs” that will happen shortly before His return to earth as Judge will be a repeat of the “days of Lot” (see Genesis 19 for details). So gays are actually helping to fulfill this same worldwide “sign” (and making the Bible even more believable!) and thus hurrying up the return of the Judge! They are accomplishing what many preachers haven’t accomplished! Gays couldn’t have accomplished this by just coming out of closets into bedrooms. Instead, they invented new architecture – you know, closets opening on to Main Streets where little kids would be able to watch naked men having sex with each other at festivals in places like San Francisco (where their underground saint – San Andreas – may soon get a big jolt out of what’s going on over his head!). Thanks, gays, for figuring out how to bring back our resurrected Saviour even quicker!
If you would care to learn about the depraved human “pigpen” that regularly occurs in Nancy Pelosi’s district in California, Google “Zombietime” and click on “Up Your Alley Fair” in the left column. And to think – horrors – that she is only two levels away from being President!
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