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New homeschool stats from Dept. of Education
Last week, the U.S. Department of Education came out with the 2009 edition of its annual report, “The Condition of Education.” I was drawn to sift through this hefty document after reading an article in USA Today, which opened with this summary:
Parents who home-school children increasingly are white, wealthy and well-educated — and their numbers have nearly doubled in a decade, a new federal government report says.
What else has nearly doubled? The percentage of girls who are home-schooled. They now outnumber home-schooled boys by a wide margin.
As of spring 2007, an estimated 1.5 million, or 2.9% of all school-age children in the USA, were home-schooled, up from 1.7% in 1999.
The new figures come from the U.S. Department of Education, which found that 36% of parents said their most important reason for home schooling was to provide “religious or moral instruction”; 21% cited concerns about school environment. Only 17% cited “dissatisfaction with academic instruction.”
Perhaps most significant: The ratio of home-schooled boys to girls has shifted significantly. In 1999, it was 49% boys, 51% girls. Now boys account for only 42%; 58% are girls.
Take a look at the full report, the brief, or the USA Today article, and tell me what you think.
back to top152 Comments to “New homeschool stats from Dept. of Education”
Home schooling is a narcissistic education system, now that I think about it.
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And the parents of those 1.5 million children continue to pay taxes to support a failing public education system that resists true reform on any and every level. Look for the numbers of homeschooled children to continue to increase for the foreseeable future.
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Interesting take on this article: USA TODAY MISSES THE MARK ON HOMESCHOOL TRENDS
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So I would be in the minority of minorities. We decided to pull our three boys out of public school because we are concerned about academic instruction – specifically the pace. Classroom instruction takes an inordinate amount of time and our boys were not able to move on once they had mastered a concept; they had to wait for everyone else. That’s when they would get in trouble!
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If I lived in Alameda, California and I had elementary school-aged children, I would begin home-schooling them. I believe that one reason so many parents are home-schooling, is because of situations like the one happening there. It should be a parent’s prerogative to decide what their children learn about moral issues and not the schools’. Your post quoted a report that said that home-schooling families are increasingly “white, wealthy and well-educated”. I think many lower income parents would like to do the same if it was possible logistically.
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“Cate says many highly educated, high-income parents are “probably people who are a little bit more comfortable in taking risks” in choosing a college or line of work. “The attributes that facilitate that might also facilitate them being more comfortable with home-schooling.”
Not sure about the risk-taking angle or the white thing, but “wealthy” people are certainly in a better circumstances to homeschool than lower income parents be they forced into double-income earing or they are sigle parents. That is probably the single biggest factor in that increase.
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Random Name, how is homeschooling narcissistic? As home-schooling parents (NOT wealthy), we sacrificed time and money, and reduced our standard of living, to provide our children with an education. You may disagree with the rationale behind home-schooling, but please don’t call us narcissistic.
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LJO, Random’s post is most likely an inside joke from another thread.
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Well, we are white anyway. As far as the sexes, glad to see we followed statistics on that one. We did three boys and a girl the first time around. Two girls and a boy the second. And we did it for all the reasons. The biggest was academic. The others played a part but with all of the schools my kids have attended or had available to them, seven school systems, academics was far and away missing. We were not looking for character development or spiritual help from any of them so that does not really count.
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Jekylldog has identified what I perceive to be a widespread problem. I know in the USA many school districts dont bring in basic algebra until 9th grade. No reason why algebraic concepts couldnt be developed and honed as early as 6th grade.
I tend to believe that the so-called higher maths should be introduced earlier. Teachers tell me that by the time kids are high school teens they are often little more than “hormones in tennis shoes” and their attentions are diverted considerably. (Which might make a good argument for gender separate schools and knee length skirts/uniforms)
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I resent too the inference that homeschooling is a white exodus phenomenon. And I dont think the percentage of homeschoolers doing so for purely religious reasons is growing either. My wife is a former SLP in a Texas school. She was vexed by how often the kids would get to watch a movie during class hours. There seems to be a lot of superfluous fluff in public schools.
The one area of concern I have with homeschooler is the quantity and quality of phys ed. But my own kids play soccer and go swimming regularly
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Sawgunner,
Job security, it is all about job security. If a fifth grade teacher teaches algebra, what would be left for the ninth grade teacher?
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#3 Derek, thank you for that link that refutes the whole, white, wealthy slant of the original story. It was quite interesting.
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This is specifically addressed to Mr. Random (no purpose) Name.
Being a SAHSM of 9, I would have to say that possibly you don’t know the meaning of that word.
Narcissism is an inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity; conceited.
I would also gather that you are not a mother, and possibly don’t even have children.
As a mother, your heart is poured out into your children. Their very existence depends on you. The “all about me” days are over and “other love” begins before that child is even born. Homeschooling takes the “Other Love” to a new level. A mother wants the best for her children. This country gives families the freedom to raise children in an environment that is most beneficial to their education, abilities, gifts and spiritual growth. Homeschooling can consume your whole life by teaching your children, and talking to them when you’re at home or away, when you lie down or get up.
It totally goes against culture and our “self first, play oriented, let the village raise my child” society.
This rattles the “me first” people. It forces them to look at their own priorities, and selfish ambitions.
That said, I can see clearly where you are coming from, and I suggest you homeschool yourself on the topic before making random (lack of purpose) comments.
Don’t just be another name by chance with an uneducated point.
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I have to say, I know some very liberal Quaker parents who homeschool and are not particularly rich. He works for the Sierra Club. They do it because their kids are bright as heck and they can learn a lot faster at home. They spend half their time in the Smithsonians.
Contrary to all the negativism about public education, our national school system does a remarkable job for the average student in most places. It does a poorer job for students who come with the disadvantages of poverty, or who have special needs. And it does a middling job with gifted kids (although there are exceptions). And year after year it must be pointed out that some of the best highschools in America are public (i.e. Bronx HS of Science, Thomas Jefferson HS for Science and Technology in VA, wealthy districts like Bronxville, NY, Scarsdale, NY, Arlington and Great Falls, VA. These schools place everyone in college and most in Ivy’s. So you really cannot generalize.
Unless, of course, your point is simply to demogogue the whole notion of public education. In which case, you’d be at severe odds with our founding fathers.
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DC Lawyer, there are some very good school in wealthy neighborhoods. Unfortunately most of us are not allowed to send our kids there.
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But, Kbells, you can’t seriously believe that all the school in small towns and rural America are bad either. The generalizations about public education is just political dogma, not fact.
Of course you are allowed to send kids there. You just have to live there or pay out of district tuition.
Some of the schools I cited, however, Bronx Science and TJ are not schools for the rich, but you do have to apply to get in. They are still public though.
I just think it makes not sense to denigrate public education. The problem is that where children have active parents and motivation, public schools do very well indeed. And yes, there is a correlation as well between income and success in school. It’s not the fault that many students are not properly prepared to learn. They do remarkably well considering.
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DCL, the TEACHERS in the school my son is zoned for said they wouldn’t send their kids there. There is a good public school two towns over but they don’t allow out of district tuition.
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I think that if school choice were allowed, some who home school would send their children to the better public schools.
As for the “white and wealthy”, perhaps in some areas. I know several home school families and all but one are wealthy. Most are one income, middle class families.
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In my case it is not a matter of the building, the teachers or my wiliness to get involved. The problem is the other kids. Public school teachers are no longer allowed to discipline. So my son would be attending school with a bunch of wild thugs, that the teachers are afraid of speaking harshly to for fear of getting sued. There is a kid on his t-ball team with a Mohawk.
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I agree whole hearted with KBELLS.
Why would anyone want to send their kids to school with kids that have no qualms about committing crimes? The public schools have all but disintegrated and should be put out of their misery. If everyone home schooled their kids we could get rid of all of the inefficient schools administrators, teachers, and faulty text books. And we could cut out the confiscatory taxes that are presently wasted on public schools.
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Generally it seems clear from this article that most who hoemeschool do so for religious reasons. This means that many of our home-schooled children are being taught by people who believe strongly in ghosts, fairies, at least one zombie, sky-daddies and miracles. They also are being taught by a fair number of people who put such beliefs ahead of their beliefs in the country, the rule of law, and respecting other people’s equally unjustifiable superstitions.
Obviously, many of these children will still be taught well. But others clearly won’t. And, there is at least some question about whether others will miss out on learning socialization skills, respect for diversity, and extra-curricular activities including such disciplines as athletics, band, drama, chess and foreign languages.
On the whole, then, I don’t see it as being good for the country.
And I note that the existance of home-schooling gives religious hierarchies and interest groups a VERY strong interest in disparaging, critcizing, de-funding and nit-picking at our public educational system. Rather than being truthful about their desire to give their kids a religiously based education, they readily attribute their decision to terrible, atrocious public schools. The worse they can make the schools look, the better their decision seems to others…
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My wife and I, in conversation with our coming 7th grade son, have decided to home school him next year. And, Arcadia, I could care less about how our decision appears to others. My wife is a school teacher, and has been in the system for almost 20 years and has seen its flaws. Will it cost us? Yes, besides paying our taxes, that go to the school system, we will have to purchase the curriculum for him. It is a cost to us, but something that we deem well worth it. Are there some good school systems out there? Absotutely! An earlier poster mentioned something about going against the founding fathers(DC lawyer I think). Do you really think that the founding fathers idea of the educational sytem is reflected in what we have today? For the first 100 years or so, education was a local issue, with power closest to the people that would hold them accountable. Local schoolhouses, (some that doubled as churches), bible reading and daily prayer, these were but some of the principles of the early educational system. How little our present day model resembles that which the founding fathers started.
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This means that many of our home-schooled children are being taught by people who believe strongly in ghosts, fairies, at least one zombie, sky-daddies and miracles. They also are being taught by a fair number of people who put such beliefs ahead of…. respecting other people’s equally unjustifiable superstitions.
I can say with great certainty that none of my home schooled friends (a group which includes one guy who, having finished his PhD at MIT, is about to take a job as a professor. And this somehow in spite of maintaining a stubborn belief in all the things you mentioned..) have ever described the beliefs of other people with such disrespect. The irony and hypocrisy would be funny if they weren’t so sad and disgusting.
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Rostin, well said.
.
The arguments for home schooling go far beyond the religious training. Even if religious training is the ‘main’ reason. Frankly except for Muslims and some fringe sects I doubt that home teaching of religion is the true reason. What would be more likely to me is that those parents don’t want the public schools inculcating the public school’s religion (read Lord of the Flies) upon their children.
.
Home schooling requires a lot from a parent. in terms of time, money, creativity home schooling is an act of love.
Socialization can happen without the public schools.
Home schooling is more custom made. And it is hoped far and away more effective than public school…. (No skid allowed to out pace any others.)
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Here are some more points I’d like to add:
Socialization
The USA Today article is just more proof that parents can provide a (gasp!) better social environment for their homeschooled students than those available at pubic schools. As the data shows, a huge reason for NOT enrolling students in public school is because homeschoolers want to AVOID the social environment at public schools.
As homeschoolers, we can dictate when, with whom, and how frequently their students will interact with others, not only in their own age group (i.e., Boy/Girl Scouts, after-school team sports, YMCA, etc.), but with others outside of their age group. With appropriate supervision, entire curriculums can be built around interacting with others such as your neighborhood postman, your local grocery cashier, or for older kids, the employees during a local corporate office tour.
In addition, since core lessons don’t typically take 6 hours to teach (like public schools), the student has even MORE time to interact with community groups, non-profit organizations, or whatever worthy social interests the student wants to pursue.
This gives the student opportunities to really build some notable accomplishments that would be tougher to achieve in a public school environment (You can just imagine this exchange from a public school student talking on the phone with her favorite charity, “What? A once-in-a-life-time series of charity events that starts at 10AM and lasts for the next 4 days? Sorry, but I don’t get out of school until 2:30PM”. Bummer).
In fact, if the social environment is designed right, the parent can BETTER prepare their students for college in this respect because college is all about interacting well with people across ALL age groups (like the real world) instead of being forced to interact 99% of the time with people within 1-4 years of the student’s actual age for 12 years of the public school student’s academic career.
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Arcadia’s #22 highlights another reason among many for abandoning public schooling. She (I think I have the gender right; sorry for forgetting) posits a big ol’ bunch of her own criteria for what comprises a good education, even extrapolating to what is good for the whole friggin’ country! The entire concept of government schooling is constructed according to just such a narrow blueprint–agnosticism–which itself is inimical to a Christian view of the world. Square peg Christians just don’t fit into that round hole, to mix metaphors, but they’re forced to pay into it anyway.
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Yeah 27,
You said what I was thinking. That is a big reason for taking them out. The attitude of my way is the right way, the things you learn at home are malarky.
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Derek’s article is enlightening. I have seen enough of the politics of the mainstream media to suspect what may be coming. For years, state educrats have failed in their attempts to significantly restrict homeschoolers. Our nation’s political climate is ripe for the use of a discrimination strategy to attempt to restrict the freedoms of families who choose to home educate and to stem the exodus of other families from the public school system. We’ll see…
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Randy: You start off as one who thinks your school system is lousy, but wind up, waaay down at the bottom, revealing your true reasons. At least, that’s the way it appears to me.
MFW: You ignore the findings clearly stated in the article. I guess all those religious homeschooling parents were lying about their reasons?
Yeah: So what? We all pay taxes for things we don’t like. Is your argument that Christians should be exempt from property taxes which mostly fund schools? Then so should everybody else who has even a vague philosophical quibble with the curriculum. Net result, is no public schools. That should do the country a world of good…
Or perhaps you just think a god should be put back in the schools. Which one? And why should a Muslim or Mormon pay for that?
Oh, then they should leave, right.
Now we’re getting somewhere…
Mumsee: Sometimes they are.
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Incidentally, yes I do find the shift toward keeping girls home while educating boys significant, but that’s for another day.
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And, from PRONTOLESSONS own commercial website:
Now, for some kids, this standard curriculum may actually be the best fit for them since there may be traits within the curriculum that match those kids’ learning styles to a T. But if the standard curriculum taught at your neighborhood elementary school is something that you don’t feel best fits into your family’s value and belief systems (i.e., for religious or other lifestyle reasons), then home school may again be a good fit for your child. In fact, one of the larger reasons for home schooling today is for religious or other beliefs.
Incidentally, Prontolessons, I did read your story, and while I could understand your being upset at one incident involving your child, that seems like a fairly thin reason for overthrowing the entire public school regime.
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Our sons went to Christian schools. I don’t want to start a discussion of the merits of Christian vs homeschooling, as I believe that every thinking person realizes that there are good reasons for both, dictated by family situations and the children’s personalities.
However, I would like to make the point that we sent our sons to Christian schools so that they WOULD be taught the very things that Arcadia derides. And we make no apologies for it.
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I agree with DCLawyer’s comments. There are many fine public schools in this country. There is no need to tear them down to build up home schooling. Unlike private schools, public schools are charged with educating all comers no matter what their abilities or disabilities are. And public education has been one of the big civic “glues” that has made America great. Public education has provided a way up for many, many people. Lets work on making it better, not tearing it down.
Given that we live in a free society, the right to home school is part of the package.
However, I think we should require all children, whether they’re educated at home, public, or private schools to take standardized testing. For example, if a parent wants to teach their kid that God made the earth in 7 days, that’s fine as long as the kid can pass a standardized science exam.
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Homeschooling is already illegal in Germany and probably elsewhere…how long before the same thing is attempted here?
Here’s a poll:
How many of you (all WMB posters) are either homeschoolers, have been homeschooled, or have kids that are homeschooled (i.e. you homeschool them)?
I belong to the first category for a little while longer until I graduate from high school sometime this year.
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Anlir, does a standardized science exam portray evolution and an old Earth as fact (or “science”)?
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However, I think we should require all children, whether they’re educated at home, public, or private schools to take standardized testing. For example, if a parent wants to teach their kid that God made the earth in 7 days, that’s fine as long as the kid can pass a standardized science exam.
Agreed. That’s the rule for Washington state, where I live, and it makes a lot of sense to me.
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Although religion is a big reason for home school or Christian private school, post 26 points out a big reason I wish I could home school. Freedom to go at the child’s own pace and freedom to teach outside the classroom. My husband’s job get us a lot of free trips and our membership with the local children’s museum gets us into other museums, science centers and planetariums all over the country.
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So, Anlir, while we’re working to make it better, what do I do with my kid?
I mean will they fix it before they mess him up or do we just caulk him up as a preliminary oops.
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Some narcissists can be responsible people. I pay my taxes. I am not in jail. I don’t steal or murder. (Except bunnies and slugs and gray squirrels.)
Some secular people, such as one of my brothers, home school their children.
Some parents do a good job of homeschooling some children. Some public schools do a good job of educating some children.
Let me point out a concept called stereotyping. You don’t like it when it is applied to you. (Some of you.)
Let me point out a concept called overgeneralizing. You don’t like it when it is applied to you. (Some of you.)
Why do you do it so much and so carelessly? (Some of you.)
NERB.
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Anlir and Cuthalion, Not all homeschooled children learn the same material at the same time as their public/private school peers. One of the great advantages of homeschooling is that we can teach to our children’s interests. Therefore, while my fourth grade son has yet to learn all the states and their capitals, he knows more about WWII than most adults. Kids learn best when they are hot about a topic. This is something that the public and private schools cannot fully use to their benefit. Forcing standardized testing on homeschoolers would require us to follow the public/private school scope and sequence. It is also important to note that the majority of home educating parents take the responsibility for their children’s education very seriously. Standardized testing is not necessary to ensure that we are doing what we have commited to do.
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Arcadia,
You add another reason for Christians to get out of public schools. When legitimate concerns are presented, you, and the rest of the entrenched state-run establishment enjoying the current comfort of having things their way, say, “So what?”
Neither Christians, nor you nor others, should have to pay for the education of other peoples’ kids. I don’t much care for taxes being used on roads and garbage art–stuff which could easily be addressed in the private sector–but we’re talking kids. That so many people, Christians or otherwise (but especially Christians), don’t blink an eye at the notion of the State educating our own at public expense, is telling as to how imbalanced the discussion is. I mean, really. The whole idea is outlandish.
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Yeah: No roads, no schools, no army (at least none that can get anywhere without roads), know nothing. It’s every man for himself, we are all islands, and beggar thy neighbor.
Yep, I get it.
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Interesting report — lots and lots of interesting statistics on homeschooling and a world of other educational aspects.
Earlier today, Derek has posted a link to Voddie Baucham’s site disputing the financial numbers. A closer look at the data reveals that the number of families homeschooling with income >$75K had nearly doubled over the period, and now makes up 33% of the total homeschooling families. In real numbers, this is a growth from 148,000 families to 501,000 families — a tripling in size. So the point of homeschooling families income trending upward does seem more than warranted.
I’m not inclined to play a class card here. Rather, I suspect this shift mirrors similar changes in the make-up of many suburban Evangelical churches. (And while the income is listed as >$75k, I would suspect most homeschooling families would be falling in the 75-150 range).
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Right, Arcadia. You got it. Without taxes and govt taking care of that stuff, we’d all just lie in bed waiting to die. It probably wouldn’t have occured to anyone that those things could even exist!
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When a 2nd grade girl mistakenly takes her mother’s lunch to school, tells her teacher and give her the butter knife. She gets suspended for bringing a knife to school. (Denver Public School)
An honor student has a random search of her car in the school parking lot, finds a Swiss army knife in the first aid kit. Suspended 2 months before graduation. (Colorado Springs)
A kindergarden boys gives a classmate a kiss, charged with sexual harassment.
These are the people you want to teach my grandchildren?
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Well, Coffeecat, we can test kids at certain steps along the way, like after grade school, middle school, and high school. So if your kid isn’t ready after grade 3 or whatever, they still have plenty of time to catch up.
Without standardized testing you could have parents who keep their kids out of school and never give them an education.
With standardized testing you ensure that every child is receiving a minimum level of education in America. It doesn’t matter how the child obtained their education (private, public, home school, virtual classroom, etc.), only that they received it.
If NCLB is good enough for public school students I think it’s good enough for all students. We do have an interest in making sure all children receive a good education in this country. It matters in many ways.
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Anlir’s another guy who can make these posts from the luxury of having things his way already. That’s why he can put the following melange into a single post without cracking a smile:
Given that we live in a free society, the right to home school is part of the package.
but
“[W]e should require” this or that; we should enforce “standardized testing”; he deigns tell us certain teaching is “fine” (thank you so much, Anlir), but only “as long as” it meets his (Anlir’s) Standardized Standard of the State (because the Christian standard undoubtedly doesn’t measure up).
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Arcadia, your post #22 is beyond disrespectful. Were I to say the same things about Islam in a public forum, not only would I have people putting a price on my head, but people like you would declare it “hate speech” and send me off to jail. Really, you do owe an apology for that.
My wife and I home school primarily because we believe it is our obligation to educate our children and secondarily because the public schools present a social environment that we find totally unacceptable. The quality of education we provide greatly exceeds the minimum standards of the state and their state-mandated annual testing clearly shows that they excel.
We are not wealthy and in fact the year we started home schooling, our combined income was well below the national “poverty” line. We made a lot of personal lifestyle sacrifices in the name of education and we’re very happy with the result.
Those who seem to think that home school kids miss out on social events, extra-curricular activities and all of that are sadly mistaken. The only thing they’ve missed out on so far is exposure to drugs, casual and overly-permissive attitudes toward sexual activity, and teachers who preach unproven scientific theories as fact while deliberately bashing the faith of the students and their parents.
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No one needs to tear down the public schools. They do that all by themselves by virtue of what they produce.
I don’t think anyone should object to standardized testing. If it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the gander, so to speak. If you’ve been taught well, there won’t be a problem whether you are in a public school or a private school or you are homeschooled. (It’s just odd to read that someone who dissed NCLB when Bush was President now calls it good education.)
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With freedom comes responsibility, Yeah.
You have the freedom to educate your child in the manner that you see fit (home school, public school, etc).
You have an obligation to provide your child with a good education.
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You can home school, Christian school, or send them to the most expensive public schools (CA) which thanks Missippi for having the worst standardized test, just below Ca.
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I have no problem with standardized testing, but one thing that has been said several times, gives me a little chuckle. That is, “It is the parents job to give the child a good education”. That is the very reason that all the parents that I know have pulled their children out of the public school and started home schooling them. Think about it for a minute, do we really believe that parents who love their children and want the best for them would pull them out of public school to give them a lesser education? Sounds pretty silly to me
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Bob2009:
I assure you that I would have made the exact same post were this a Muslim group discussing home schooling.
Same fairies, ghosts, and sky-daddy, but no zombie.
Was that the part you found “beyond disrespectful”? Or was it my comments on the lack of patriotism and respect for diversity and the law. For Muslims have the same problem. In spades.
But, as far as I know, in some countries they do not couch their attempts to undermine the state or its educational systems in deceptive terms. They seem to prefer gunpoint. Or perhaps just occupying somewhat larger educational vacuums than we have in this country.
But either group in any modern country will have a sizable number of members who simply are unlikely to provide their children with the kinds of education needed to succeed in today’s society.
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Bob2009, I agree Arcadia’s post was disrespectful, but that was the intent. That’s always the intent when the non-believers post. But they’re here for a reason, they’re looking for something.
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Great article posted by Derek (#3). The USA Today article didn’t just miss the point, it deliberately sought to create a false impression. The facts highlighted in Derek’s linked article convincingly show that the USA Today author, Greg Toppo, is more of a propagandist than a journalist.
Going on from that point, I add that the responsibility for educating one’s children belongs to the parents alone. This is part of God’s family design of one male husband and one female mother who are to “be fruitful and multiply” (Gen 1:28). God then instructs the parents to raise their children in accordance with God’s “ways” (Prov 22:6).
It follows then that the ONLY justification for ANY school, public or private, in our society is to assist the parents in fulfilling their God-given responsibility. However, our society today has a view that is 180 degrees opposed to the Christian view. Our society has gradually usurped the role of parents and now largely believes that the state is responsible for the education of children. Many Christian families have unthinkingly been drawn into this same view.
Now we see the state going far beyond basic education and INDOCTRINATING children socially, politically, and religiously (atheism) in ways that should be anathema to any thinking Christian family. The schools are no longer assisting Christian parents in fulfilling their God-given responsibility of educating their children. They are in fact doing just the opposite. The state now deliberately seeks to turn children away from Christian values and, in so doing, it undermines the authority of Christian parents and brings contradictions and confusion into the home.
In summary, all Christian parents should ask themselves the question, “Who is responsible for educating my child as God commands, me or the state?” Then ask yourself, “Are the public schools helping me or opposing me in that task?” Your children are too important to ignore the obvious answers to those questions.
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Lloyd
Here is an interesting site – notice how California stands, it’s number 4 –
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Anlir, you said,
You have an obligation to provide your child with a good education.
Surely, you’re able to anticipate the response to this.
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Don’t bet on it, Yeah.
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Rio – I am currently homeschooling my younger daughter. (Older one is finished with homeschooling.)
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NJL: Who says I’m a “non-believer”? Everybody believes something. And some even have evidence. Or the courage to say they do not know, but being wrong is dangerous.
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I hate to disappoint Michael Martin, but public schools exist to teach all children in the community, not just the fundamentalist and conservative Christian ones. Therefore, they’re obligated to remain religiously neutral.
If one is expecting the public schools to favor their particular religion and discriminate against all others, they will (thankfully!) find no comfort in the legislature or the courts of this nation.
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Apparently among many other things, Anlir doesn’t recognize that the schools already discriminate (and they do so with lots and lots of discriminatee money). But since they favor those he favors, no big deal, I guess.
Either way, abolish State schools.
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We should not abolish public schools! They have been one of the backbones of our democracy and part of the fabric of communities all over this country. They have helped to make America a “melting pot” and kept us from becoming a “balkanized” nation. Public schools have provided the great masses with an opportunity they would otherwise not have received. The public schools have contributed the the civic order and helped create the great middle class in America.
Do our public schools have problems? Obviously. Do they need to do a better job? Absolutely. But mend them, don’t end them.
Those who want to destroy our public school system are thankfully in the minority. And those who want public schools to give special rights to their sectarian beliefs and discriminate against all others are really in the minority.
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Anlir, most of us have children – we are well aware of public school education and its below average results for the most part. If you don’t have children, I doubt you understand the situations we have either faced or facing, educating our young people.
We are very blessed to have above average schools where we live, people do everything they can to buy homes here, but that is not true for the VAST schools across our country – I applaud all parents who home-school, they are giving their children something which is far better than a public education, not to mention safety, morals, and individual attention daily.
Those in my family who are home-schooling are way above average as parents, and their children are obvious examples of the individual care and schooling they receive at home.
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It’s always interesting to me how many people will say “public schools are bad”, but their own local/neighborhood school is “good”, “pretty good”, or even “great”.
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Anlir – 66
I don’t hear that at all, in fact that’s one of the reasons people home-school, the schools in their area aren’t good.
If you thought this through logically, it would make NO SENSE to home-school if the school in ones area was “great” – Think about it.
We do live in an area which has some of the best schools, not only in California but the nation – that’s why people try to buy where we live.
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#67 “If you thought this through logically, it would make NO SENSE to home-school if the school in ones area was “great” – Think about it.”
I’m not understanding this. The public schools in our town are great, but we home school. This doesn’t make sense to you? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.
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66. Read my earlier post. My local school is bad.
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I’m entering my last year of homeschooling. Why did I pull my son and daughter out and homeschool them? Because both their public school teachers TOLD me to! My daughter was diagnosed with a learning disability (later discovered to be a visual tracking problem), and the school freely admitted that it would be a year before an IEP was implemented. In the meantime, she was just expected to try her best and struggle along. Her teacher said “I would pull her out and homeschool her if it were my daughter.”
My son was ADD – inattentive. His teacher told me that when he reached the middle school, he would be left behind, and again I heard “if it were my child, I’d homeschool.” With that kind of recommendation coming from public school teachers in what is considered to be one of the “better” school systems in Tucson, why would I NOT listen? We’ve homeschooled successfully since 2002. My son just got his grades from the community college – he’s got a 3.38 GPA, and is transferring to a 4 year college next year and going into the ministry. (Sorry to those of you who are un-Christians? un-believers? Whatever you want to call yourselves)
My daughter is finally getting there with her education and will finish school early. It wasn’t until last year that we discovered her real problem and got treatment for it. (Unreimbursed by insurance for the $5000 it cost, but it was well worth it! She went from reading at a 2nd grade level to reading at a 8-9th grade level in one year!) Is she going to be a rocket scientist? No, but she will be what God wants her to be, whatever that is.
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Personally, I’d say nearly all public schools are less-than-preferable at best and awful at worst, but I really don’t want to make Opinionated Teen feel that I’m saying anything against her school…
For instance, when a student can graduate from school without being able to read (and even become a teacher), don’t you think something is lacking somewhere? And as for what’s taught in public schools…evolution takes faith too. It should be labeled as a religion, but evolutionists, unfortunately, have gotten most people to call it “science.” Well, enough if this already.
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Congrats to those homeschoolers and those homeschooling…and to some of those that don’t for seeing that homeschooling is a pretty good idea.
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Victoria,
The lastest education rating I could find was ‘06-07 and CA rated 47th overall.
LAWRENCE, KS. For the second consecutive year, Vermont has earned the title of the nation’s Smartest State. This honor was announced today in Education State Rankings 2006-2007, a new reference book from Morgan Quitno Press, a Lawrence, Kansas-based independent research and publishing company. At the opposite end of the scale, Arizona repeated as the lowest ranking state in the fifth annual survey. http://www.morganquitno.com/edpress06.htm
CA came in 47th, sorry for my miss information.
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I heartily support homeschoolers. My brother and sister-in-law homeschool their children and they have 12 (that wasn’t a type-o).
My husband and I sent our daughter (our son this next year) to public school because we live in a rural area with a small school where many of the teachers grew up, too, and the class sizes are around 12 to 18 students. It’s where my husband attended school once upon a time. The elementary, jr. high and high school buildings are all connected on the same property.
I feel for those parents who are faced with public schools plagued by poor academic performance and over crowding.
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I come from a family that is loaded with educators. Primary, secondary, special ed, etc. And I know of two that have homeschooled during a certain period of time. And none would see any detriment to it (except for the declining enrollment and a possible pay freeze).
My kids are actually at a great public school. We are blessed.
But not all are.
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Lloyd – 73
Go back and check out my post #57 – the material was for Best High Schools: State by State Statistics December 4, 2008
California came in 4th – This was published in US NEWS.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-schools/2008/12/04/best-high-schools-state-by-state-statistics.html
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Endyblue – 68
I know nothing about your schools, where you live, which city or state. I can only speak for my own experience. I guess you missed the last paragraph in my post #67.
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That said (and read) … I still don’t get it. So you homeschool your kids even though the schools are great? I just didn’t get your statement that I quoted; aside from the schools in our area.
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Endyblue – 78
We have never home-schooled, but if we had been in a position to do so, we would have. The schools where we live are highly academic, the standards are very high, parents are very involved, therefore there is NO motivation to home-school.
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Endyblue – Read the Initial post – “most important reason for home schooling was to provide ‘religious or moral instruction.’” In other words, these parents think that a great secular education is not good enough.
Arizona gets a bad rap, but there are other reasons as well. One being the high number of students that don’t speak English. Has anyone heard of the illegal alien problem down here? I have heard that this is a great problem in California as well.
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#66
Interestingly, John Stossel did a report on schools in America, and he noted the same thing. People almost always except their own schools from the rest that say are doing poorly.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
Well worth watching, whatever side you fall on.
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I found Victoria’s link interesting. It proves the case for home schooling. The ‘best’ listing is that ratio of “gold or silver” high schools versus the number of high schools allowed to be analyzed. Even in Massachusetts you have less than a one in eleven shot of getting a worthwhile high school. (of course that assumes that even a silver or gold school is worthwhile. That Massachusetts is highest in ratio makes one believe the gold /silver test has a lot to do with liberalism. ) . Home schooling beats that ratio by far.
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#41 Just an idea that popped into my head. Why not take some time and drive with your family to the state capitols near you. Not only would it reinforce the state and capitol but it would also show that all the state capitols have Mcdonald’s…. Buy a newspaper in each city (soon newspapers may be extinct.)as a souvenir (memory device). It might also make your kid the envy of a lot of other kids.
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Coffeecat #41, such a trip would also teach planning, map reading, sign reading, etc, etc, etc. And might just be a heck of a lot of fun.
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I homeschool my kids (ds17, ds12, and dd9).
I am a certified teacher, and I have worked in public schools, an Orthodox Jewish school, and a Christian school.
I really don’t have much positive to say about public schools, and would try to do just about anything to keep my kids out of one. It is largely because of the world view. Anlir says they are neutral, but this is not really the case. There is a world view, a weltanshung, that I just didn’t want my kids getting.
It is often subtle. It is not something that every teacher is even aware of (although many are.) It is not something a parent can counter by just asking, “How was your day?” or “What did you learn today?” You’d have to be there listening over your kid’s shoulder all day long, and countering the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) messages he or she was receiving.
Kids are being indoctrinated into a particular view of the world, and it is not a view I want my kids to have.
Secondarily, my kids are much better educated than most public-schooled children, and most private-schooled children as well.
However, I know there are some schools that could do better, but my kids wouldn’t be part of them in this area, and I couldn’t afford to send them either.
Still, my oldest son’s SAT scores were in the 85th percentile for math, the 95th percentile for writing, and the 98th percentile for reading. He plans on working on math more over the summer, and taking the SAT again for a better score. Still, not bad, and well within the mid-range for many selective colleges. So, we’re doing all right.
In addition, all my kids take outside classes on occasion, and my oldest takes classes at the local university and the local community college. Also, all my kids are active in sports or dance or theater, or scouts or a combination of the above.
So, they are far from “unsocialized.” In fact, we are so busy, that I sometimes think they are way TOO socialized. 
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At any rate, I freely admit that my #1 reason for homeschooling is to keep my kids from becoming “double-minded.” (i.e. believing one thing on Sunday and something else the rest of the time. Also, holding two contradictory beliefs in their heads at the same time and not realizing it.)
In other words, I want my kids to have a Christian world view, not a secular humanist or a new-age PC view.
A close second, however, is the quality of education.
Still, even if there were a #1 highest-ranked secular public school in my area, I would still likely homeschool due to the world view.
Now, if there were a #1 highest-ranked Christian school in my area — and I could afford it — I might well send my kids there.
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TRS #84, I might recommend one book for your oldest son. It is the Princeton Review book called “Cracking the SAT” # ISBN-10: 0375428569 # ISBN-13: 978-0375428562 . It does a great job of showing kids what the SAT is really all about. Well worth buying a new copy. I have used it to train teens to take the SAT. I have consistently improved their scores significantly.
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If there is not a good rated Christian school around you….. consider starting one. You might be able to find room in a church or elsewhere to use.
And if you can’t create it then you can still find and encourage others to start one.
http://www.aopschools.com/blog/school-messenger/
attend-a-how-to-start-your-own-christian-school-webinar
You may have to copy and paste that link into your browser.
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http://www.aopschools.com/blog/school-messenger/attend-a-how-to-start-your-own-christian-school-webinar
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I think we have a new worldmagblog star on our hands. How old is Monty? Monty, does your mommy know where you are at 4:12 am?
From Monty’s Flickr profile:
Woof Woof ! I love life. I love good food. I love good fun. I love good people. Give me a chance and I might love you ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
It’s OK, Monty, down boy. Please stop licking my face.
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#34 you have one wrong on your science exam. He created everything in 6 days, not 7.
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Arcadia, this is a Christian blog, so one would think if you are called a non-believer, you would realize that you are being called a non-professing Christian.
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Homeschooling keeps your smart kids from growing up thinking they are unlovable geeks.
We homeschool until our kids were teenagers, we still have one at home (three others, oldest in college). We started because the public schools in inner city Philadelphia were horrendous. There was no public option for us then.
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Arcadia -
But others clearly won’t. And, there is at least some question about whether others will miss out on learning socialization skills, respect for diversity, and extra-curricular activities including such disciplines as athletics, band, drama, chess and foreign languages.
You have a double standard. I can assure you that inner city public schools don’t come even close to this ideal, and not due to lack of funding.
You must know that these were some of the very reasons why we originally did not send our children to public school. Socialization and respect for diversity in the inner city are virtually non existent. Your assumptions regarding a lack of extra-curricular activities for homeschoolers are wrong in every particular.
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Chicago alone has over 400,000 children in mostly inferior schools. The majority of our children live in cities. Throw in New York, Houston, LA, SD, Philadelphia, Miami, Jacksonville, Dallas, St. Louis, Cleveland, Cincinnatti, Pittsburgh, Las Vegas, etc. etc. and you will find that way too many of our public school children are disadvantaged but not because of poverty, it’s because of a failed educational philosophy that goes back to the beginning of the industrial revolution.
Cars, refrigerators and televisions sets can be built on a production line conveyor belt. Educated children cannot. The few children (comparatively) who are doing well in public education, by and large are in non-traditional schools. They have been sifted out of the rest of the masses and put in magnet or charter schools that make it look like there is some possibility of success in public education. Or else they live in relatively affluent suburbs where the most educated, and innovative teachers choose to go and where parental involvement is increased. It’s still mostly putting a bow tie on a pig. It makes the pig look a little prettier, but it’s still a pig.
When I lived in Chicago I paid $3200 in property taxes. 60% of that went to public education. AT the time I would gladly have put that almost $2000 in the hands of a set of parents to invest in their children’s education in private or parochial schools.
I worked a second job to insure my children didn’t get lost in the shuffle of the public schools and today they are all college educated, successful adults who thank their parents that they didn’t have to go to public schools based on what they see in their friends who are products of public education.
My wife and I were just one out of many, many couples who sacrificed whatever had to be sacrificed to insure that our children got a balanced playing field for success. I only wish that many of my friends had the ability to do the same for their children.
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Thanks, Monty. I will look into the book.
I honestly have no desire or time to start a Christian school. There are three in my town alone. One is Classical Christian (I worked there as a teacher for 6 years until I pulled my kids out), one is nice, but not a powerhouse curricula-wise, and one just doesn’t appeal for many reasons.
Unless I work, I cannot afford any of them. And, none of them would teach my kids as well as I am teaching them (even with all my flaws.)
There are times I fear my oldest (who has never been particularly social, even when going to the Classical Christian School) is missing out on a lot of fun, but I can’t justify destroying his education, or ruining that of his brother and sister, or going back to work full time, just so he can have more “fun.” My two youngest are more than willing to make their own fun and join all sorts of activities without needing to go to school to do so.
My oldest already has enough credits to graduate, so we will be concentrating on science and math in his last year of high school here at home.
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TRS, like your eldest son (”ds” stands for “dear son?”),
I too have taken courses from a nearby community college (online courses), and I have a grand total of 27 credits. (incidentally, I am also 17)
It is largely because of the world view. Anlir says they are neutral, but this is not really the case. There is a world view, a weltanshung, that I just didn’t want my kids getting.
If you have not, I recommend you read the book, Total Truth, by Nancy Pearcey. It talks a lot about worldviews and how they tie into our culture and many of its issues, how many people have a dualistic worldview, and how to not succumb to this dualism.
On another thought:
Some people simply choose to homeschool so they can have more time to devote to the studies and activities they desire, rather than being stuck at the same pace and with the same amount of time doing what the other students do.
For instance, Hilary Hahn, one of the most famous (and one of the best, I would think) classical violinists in the world today, is a virtuoso the likes of Joshua Bell, Rachel Barton Pine, Itzhak Perlman, and others. She became homeschooled after some time so she could devote more time to the violin – five hours a day, in fact.
Well, the members of my favorite Christian band, BarlowGirl, (three sisters) were homeschooled also; that’s something I think is pretty neat. I don’t think you’ll find that many families that are homeschooling families and have a family business that they are very good at.
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Yes, ds = dear son and dd = dear daughter, although — when one is angry with them — one can substitute other adjectives.
The terms are standard “net speak” on most groups involving moms.
Also, dh = dear husband, dmil = dear mother-in-law, etc.
It’s a nice short-hand that doesn’t reveal names.
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#79 “The schools where we live are highly academic, the standards are very high, parents are very involved, therefore there is NO motivation to home-school.
Oh, I see what you’re saying now! You mean for your personally. This reasoning wouldn’t apply to everyone; it doesn’t apply to many homeschoolers, including ourselves. We have great schools in our town, and we never considered using them. We wanted to be the ones teaching our kids, guiding their learning adventure — we didn’t want to give this experience over to the school.
That’s why the argument/reasoning didn’t make sense to me; it assumes that everyone starts with public school as an assumed experience, and homeschooling as the optional route. I’m hoping the opposite comes around — that homeschooling will be what most people do, and public school is what they “pray about”.
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Did I word that well? I was saying if that’s how you made your decision, great! And we made ours a different way. Having “good schools” wasn’t enough to make us consider a public education for our kids. We homeschooled for different reasons.
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Endyblue,
Everyones situation is different, every area of the country different as well. We live in a very conservative area, (there are some left in the U.S.)
You can’t judge each person or family regarding home-schooling, based just on your situation or experience.
We still have to consider that public school will always be required as some single parents are required to work. There are those who chastize the single parents but it isn’t kind nor fair. One also has to take into consideration that some children are capable of going to excellent public schools of which our particular area is noted for. As children become older they need to understand the world around them, and that means attending public school IF it’s a good one. Socially, it is much better for the child, they learn to cope with other kids their age. We have one in our family who did very well as home-schooled, but when it was time for college (he took some courses during his last high school year at the J.C.) he was very lonely, he hadn’t learned the skills to make friends except those at his church.
We’ve all had this conversation before, I doubt anyone has changed their minds.
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Victoria, some of the things you stated as fact are not in fact fact. But if you say this has been discussed before (I don’t recall being part but that’s fine, I’ve seen the statements before), then we don’t have to go into it. Have a great evening!
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Endyblue –
YOU WRITE: “Victoria, some of the things you stated as fact are not in fact fact.”
Sorry you feel this way.
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Victoria, it’s now how I feel that matters when it comes to whether something is opinion or fact. You stated a couple of things as fact that are not in fact fact. Factually. Statistically. Experientialy. Your statements were opinion.
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Endyblue – 103
You allude to my statements being untrue – It appeaars you are anxious to get into some sort of debate – You don’t name what you are complaining about, instead you continue to complain.
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Victoria, I don’t see correcting or questioning as complaining. You’d said that this all had been talked over here before so because of that I didn’t go into details.
You did make statements of opinion (”As children become older they need to understand the world around them, and that means attending public school IF it’s a good one. Socially, it is much better for the child, they learn to cope with other kids their age“) that are not factual.
Children don’t in fact need the public school system (even if it’s a good one) to understand the world around them; and socially being in a classroom with other children their age isn’t necessarily better for children (my educated — meaning I home school and interact with hundreds of home schoolers — opinion is that it’s not).
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Endyblue – 105
Just as you have opinions so do I, based on my experience, that doesn’t have anything to do with ‘fact’ it is simply an opinion, which I hold, and you in turn have yours.
Every parent is not a candidate to be a teacher to their children, that is a fact. A parents educational background is not always the question.
My mother was a very educated woman, but would was not talented as a home-school mother. I would have been miserable had I been home-schooled, I loved constant interaction with other children from day one – both inside and outside the classroom.
I believe everyone has to evaluate their children’s needs differently. Raising children in a strong Christian home with values is the most important thing we can do. If the public schools are below educational standards other choices must be made, but in my case, both as a student and parent, home-schooling would not have been a good option.
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On that we can agree!
It was just the part about kids “needing” school to understand the world around them and about peers at school providing better social training for a child that I couldn’t agree with and didn’t like seeing stated as fact.
But yes, situations are different for all and have to be evaluated as such.
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Endyblue
I do believe, if at all possible children need to be in a school setting for their education, be it private or public. Those who wish to home-school and are educated to do so, their children are happy about the arrangement, that sounds like a good plan.
Kids who have been sheltered at home for most of their day, do not interact with other children to any great degree as they would in a classroom setting – they are used to individual attention, and a lot of mom. Yes they have sports teams, special events, picnic’s, and some special classes – but that does not take the place of a classroom where there are a variety of children. And YES they do need to understand the world around them – learning to get along with kids who aren’t very nice, who don’t believe as they do, it’s part of the coping skills everyone needs as they grow older – without these skills home-schooled kids often believe they are the center of attention, they don’t understand there are others who might come first most of the time. It’s like the kid who’s mom is out front on the lawn watching her kid ride a bike, everytime he falls down, here comes the nurse, or the parent who steps in to stop a disagreement when the kids are playing outside. That might sound trite, but I believe for the most part kids have to learn to get along in this world. Even private Christian schools have a variety of children from many walks of life – the values of course are much different which makes them an excellent choice, however the kids are forced to compete and get along as a group.
My observation has developed over time, children need to learn coping skills to live within the sphere of society if at all possible – if they have learning problems, or the public school is not up to par, that’s different.
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“I do believe, if at all possible children need to be in a school setting for their education, be it private or public. Those who wish to home-school and are educated to do so, their children are happy about the arrangement, that sounds like a good plan.”
Oh then I was wrong. We totally disagree, LOL.
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Victoria,
I’m sorry. I have to agree with Endyblue on this one. Studies have shown that homeschooled kids are BETTER socialized than kids in public or private schools. They learn to get along with ALL KINDS of people and ages of people, rather than just kids their own age. Obviously, you have never been around public schooled children who refuse to play with someone who is “too young” or “too old.” It happens all the time.
Homeschooled kids are actually out in the world, interacting with adults, and other kids of varying ages. They aren’t confined to one grade-level class.
You cannot judge an entire movement by one homeschool situation in your family.
Much of what you say about homeschooling is stereotyped opinion that is not supported by the facts.
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I meant that sweetly/funny btw, not snarky. We get nothing but huge complements about how our kids interact with others of ALL ages — not just their peers — quite frequently and so do many of the families we know. We’ve had employers, teachers, mentors, friends and more tell us they can tell when kids are homeschooled — they’re nicer, more interested in things, more confident, etc. It’s even said that many colleges are pursuing homeschooled kids and opening the door wide for them because of their social and academic excellence. Based on the writings of numerous homeschoolers with graduated students, homeschoolers for the most part do quite well interacting with the real world.
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Oh, and the idea that kids in public schools learn to get along with a “variety of children from many walks of life” has been proved incorrect in many studies. In fact, most schools are pretty homogeneous, and — even in schools where this is not true — kids still make friends and “hang” with other kids just like them. They do not normally begin to hang with other ethnic groups, or with other social groups.
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Continuing TRS’s thought, Victoria mentioned “the parent who steps in to stop a disagreement when the kids are playing outside.” I actually try to listen to the kids to see if they solve their problems on their own. If they don’t or can’t seem to figure it out, then I do my parental duty and try to teach them HOW. It’s far more valuable for them to learn how to do it right according to Biblical principle than to develop a bad habit by trying to figure it out according to playground rules (which are usually wrong — the companion of fools and all that).
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It’s far more valuable for them to learn how to do it right according to Biblical principle than to develop a bad habit by trying to figure it out according to playground rules (which are usually wrong — the companion of fools and all that).
******I agree with this! Having been a public school teacher (and a private school teacher) before homeschooling, I have to say that kids do not generally do a great job of working things out anywhere close to Biblically. In fact, it tends to be more of a “might makes right” or “who is the most popular” philosophy that kids turn to first in school to “work things out.”
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TRS, your tone is that of telling me I have no experience with children or schools which is insulting. Because you have taught school does not give you the inside scoop. As a mother, and a very active one, I have observed children doing mean things to other children of all ages, including the young, to the older. Kids can be unkind at any age to any other age, just as they often mistreat their siblings –
Of course they interact with adults, all children do, and YES they are with children within their family of all ages. That also means they are not competing and learning within their own grade level as well as those in a classroom of ’same age’ within a year or two. TRS, again you are posting to me as though I haven’t any experience or any background in home-schooling. Are you aware that almost every educated parent has a good working knowledge of the home-schooled system, how it works, and the down-side as well? – and there is a down side.
I didn’t say I judged from one situation now did I? What I did do is give several examples, and because I don’t list every example I now have only one?
There is no stereotype at all – you are supporting an educational system you believe in, but I disagree with unless it’s done for purposes when children have learning disabilities, bad public school in area, or they cannot afford private school. The FACTS are what you want to believe, my observation of those who are home-schooled do have a problem interacting with other children, YES they are very interested in talking to adults, often interrupting them, and treating them as their siblings, that is one of the obvious down-sides. When they are then enrolled in college, they have a hard time assimilating with their peers, they are used to individual attention which they won’t receive in college.
I don’t believe it’s a first choice ever, but it is an option for those who have no other alternative.
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With due respect, Victoria, you are showing that you really do not have much deep and involved knowledge of the home school world. What you believe — your arguments and concerns — are not how it’s playing out in the real world and any look into homeschooling as a whole will prove that.
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Endyblue – 116
You and I almost never agree, this is no exception – however, you couldn’t be more wrong on this issue. I do have experience and knowledge, it just doesn’t agree with yours.
Most people who home-school are adamant about the program, will admit that NOTHING can/could be wrong with it, or that there is NO DOWN SIDE. When people cannot admit that something isn’t perfect, that there are areas which leave much to be desired, one has to look no further – there is no perfect anything, and that includes home-schooling.
We are all thrilled when kids win spelling bee’s, as they did this year which represent home-school, but that isn’t the whole picture, nor does it cover even half, it’s but one piece which shines, there are others which are are sadly lacking.
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For example:
Kids who have been sheltered at home for most of their day, do not interact with other children to any great degree as they would in a classroom setting – they are used to individual attention, and a lot of mom.
You see this as negative when in fact it’s a positive thing in the individual development of the vast majority of children (the companion of fools and all that).
And YES they do need to understand the world around them – learning to get along with kids who aren’t very nice, who don’t believe as they do, it’s part of the coping skills everyone needs as they grow older
You assume that the school is the best place for this to happen when it’s isn’t. We do this in our home regularly, in a positive way (see above).
That also means they are not competing and learning within their own grade level as well as those in a classroom of ’same age’ within a year or two.
You see this as important when in fact it’s not necessarily what even well-educated parents want for their children. I’m well-educated and it’s not a goal in our homeschool (and yet our children are getting great educations).
Are you aware that almost every educated parent has a good working knowledge of the home-schooled system, how it works, and the down-side as well?
This is basically laughable. It’s so not true. The vast majority of non-homeschooling parents may be aware of homeschooling and may know a homeschooling family or two, but they do not have any knowledge of the basics, what’s required in their state, the many and varied options available to homeschoolers (from delight-directed learning to school-at-home to the Charlotte Mason method to unschooling to unit studies to ….), what the studies are proving when it comes to its success, etc.
There is no stereotype at all
Whether you realize it or not, your arguments are very stereotypical. Homeschoolers hear them over and over again, and yet they’re not proven out at all. One definition of “stereotype” is “A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group” and that’s what I’m reading in your perception.
When they are then enrolled in college, they have a hard time assimilating with their peers, they are used to individual attention which they won’t receive in college.
Again, not proven out when looking at homeschoolers as a whole.
I don’t believe it’s a first choice ever, but it is an option for those who have no other alternative.
Show me in the Bible where this is a fact. It can certainly be an opinion, which I know you know it is, but it’s also not supported by fact.
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Most people who home-school are adamant about the program, will admit that NOTHING can/could be wrong with it, or that there is NO DOWN SIDE.
This, also, isn’t true. Most homeschoolers I know, self included, are able to admit there are failures. Certainly! But when you look at the big picture, the vast majority are succeeding and their children are doing well in the world.
We are all thrilled when kids win spelling bee’s [sic], as they did this year which represent home-school, but that isn’t the whole picture, nor does it cover even half,
What doesn’t represent half? Winning spelling bees? That couldn’t be said of public schoolers either.
it’s but one piece which shines, there are others which are are sadly lacking.
Again, this can be said just as much, if not MORE so, of public schooled kids. The schools in America are failing to a huge degree; moststudents at the university level are DUMB; they can’t THINK. I sat in on a class the other day and the professor asked — after having covered this just a couple days previously — what political party Harry Truman was. Silence. 20 kids in the class and silence. For a minute. No one could name this fact, let alone tell what his policies were (again, covered just a couple of days previously).
So, what is your experience with homeschooling? Details please.
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Forgot to close-italic my first comment above; after the first paragraph. The second paragraph is my comment.
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Endyblue,
No point in wasting my time – you obviously believe my intelligence, education and experience to be sub-standard and lacking when it comes to home-schooling.
Have a nice evening.
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??
My blood pressure wasn’t up. I’ve heard the stereotypes countless times before and I just chuckle (and/or roll my eyes) when I read them.
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One of my children used to roll their eyes when they wanted to make a point, they grew up and realized how immature it was – LOL
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You’re an amazing woman, Victoria.
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I know –
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Forgive my sarcasm (#125). Trying to end the discussion with an insults thinly veiled as a joke (#124) speaks volumes.
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Good night Endyblue -
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The FACTS are what you want to believe, my observation of those who are home-schooled do have a problem interacting with other children, YES they are very interested in talking to adults, often interrupting them, and treating them as their siblings, that is one of the obvious down-sides. When they are then enrolled in college, they have a hard time assimilating with their peers, they are used to individual attention which they won’t receive in college.
******Wow. Your stereotypes are very set. They’re not true, of course, but they are certainly set.
I wonder why Harvard, the other Ivy leagues, and so many universities are actively seeking out homeschoolers when they have such a “hard time assimilating with their peers?” Hmmm??
I wonder why studies regularly show them being BETTER SOCIALIZED than their public and private schooled counterparts?
There are problems with *any* system of education, and certainly with homeschool too. But they are not what you seem to think they are. Very stereotypical, and just plain wrong.
And, I would like to remind you that I’ve done it ALL (public school, private school and homeschool.) So, I’ve seen lots and lots and lots of kids over 14 years of teaching and six years of homeschooling.
Sometimes, it is better to step back when you are less informed than you think you are.
There certainly are some homeschoolers that fit your stereotypes (stereotypes don’t get created in a vacuum after all), but the vast majority do not.
I would not choose your “elite” public school over homeschooling any day.
And, honestly, when you yourself admitted that only those with money can even buy homes in your school district, are you really going to keep trying to say that the students in your local public schools are *really* interacting with a diverse group of students?
No, they are interacting with the rest of the “well-off” who can afford to be there.
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Victoria,
I think you have missed the main information of the survey. Although educational standards are important, it is apparent that other things are more important to many homeschoolers and can cause a person to choose to homeschool even when the public schools have high academic standards.
When homeschoolers say that “their most important reason for home schooling was to provide ‘religious or moral instruction,’” it’s obvious that they feel that high academic standards are not enough.
Remember that most values are caught not taught, so the environment where the child spends the largest part of his waking hours is very important. One example is that peer pressure tends to become much more influential in a child in a school setting. And since the public schools cannot teach Christian values, the omission of them in the schools – even if those values are not being actively confronted – has an effect on the values caught in our schools. Although some children can go through that much influence with their values intact, most are much more vulnerable.
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Fuzzyface – 132
YOU WRITE: “I think you have missed the main information of the survey. Although educational standards are important, it is apparent that other things are more important to many homeschoolers and can cause a person to choose to homeschool even when the public schools have high academic standards.”
Someone disagrees, (like myself) and that translates instantly to “missed the main information of the survey” – Sorry Fuzzyface, disagreeing doesn’t equate to missing anything, or not having the intellectual capacity to understand. There are pro’s and con’s to home-schooling which no one wants to admit. This subject has caused people who disagree to be condemned because they don’t agree, based on their circumstances, place of residence and public schools – it goes right over the head of anyone who home-schools – in other words, it’s my way or the highway –
When I observe this staunch lock-step approach, I’m not surprised when people look at we who are as Christian Evangelicals and see us as being so strident, unbending and unkind, they turn away, maybe in sorrow or just plain disgust. Our witness as Christians Believers should encompass everyone — public school is not a church, too many people in many areas across America are forced in unsafe, lower income areas to send their children to sub-standard unsafe public schools, this SHOULD NOT BE. For those of us who live to the contrary I do believe it is a challenge, to show respect and kindness to others who don’t have the advantages we have. Remember one thing Fuzzyface, there will ALWAYS be public school – shouldn’t that challenge the Church of Jesus Christ to reach these kids for HIM?
Our church reaches out into the community at large with many Bible studies and clubs for all ages, activities which help children learn about Jesus Christ – this is available every night of the week and on Sunday’s – it’s not an activity center, it’s a direct approach to help children and parents alike to know Christ – Within that framework one can reach a vast number of people of every socio-economic group –
I will address the rest of your post later.
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Quick passing comment, Victoria, but when you say, “when people look at we who are as Christian Evangelicals and see us as being so strident, unbending and unkind, they turn away, maybe in sorrow or just plain disgust . . .” that is fairly consistently how you come across on this blog.
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Re home schooling: I’m glad I wasn’t homeschooled; my mom wouldn’t have done it well at all. And I’ve never wanted to homeschool my own children if/when I had any. That makes me very much a minority in my family–my siblings who homeschool say very strong things about families that don’t, going so far as to say that anyone who puts kids in a public school “hates their children.” So believe me, I know the rhetoric from both sides, and the stereotypes of both sides. My sister even urged me to homeschool foster kids, which wouldn’t have been possible on a lot of levels. (I support myself by working, and obviously couldn’t do so and homeschool troubled kids at the same time; it would be illegal; I couldn’t possibly have curriculum in my house for any age level of child I might get.)
But while I have always been glad that I went to public school, where I had opportunities to witness, and have always assumed I’d send my own kids to public school for the better part of their education, I can’t help but rethink it when I see public schools. (My thought on education has always been that I’d do a mixture of schooling types, depending on the child–I’d homeschool for kindergarten for sure, as no child that age should be in school for seven hours, and possibly for first grade too, and then put kids in public school, but pull them into a good private school by middle school–or earlier if I could afford it. If a particular child needed homeschooling or private tutoring other years, I’d work with that child’s needs.)
But really, my own social experience of public school was HORRID. I didn’t learn to make friends my own age until college, when a professor kind of took me under her wing and helped me learn a few social things (mostly about how to fit in with the group a bit better). Even before that, however, I did great at job interviews, jobs I worked at, etc.–because I could get along OK with people who were older than I was. For doing well in life, in other words, it really is more important to get along with people of a variety of ages than with people of one’s exact age. (In grade school, when you’re in third grade, kids in second grade seem childish and kids in fourth grade seem amazingly mature. That’s not a realistic picture of the world! My brother who was three years younger than me seemed like a real baby, and even my sister a year younger seemed quite immature–now, granted, she wanted to be a child and I wanted to be an adult, so there was a natural difference there. But we were so close to the same age that the age difference should have seemed irrelevant, as the two-year gaps between my sister’s homeschooled kids do.)
Anyway, to this day I have more friends who are older than me than friends my own age (I have two very close friends my own age, plus my sister and a few more casual friends). When I was in my twenties, it was the hardest thing in the world to even want to have friends my own age, since I’d already discovered the joy of having more mature friends (15 years older, even 50 years older). What I found with 20-something women in college was that they had three, and virtually only three, subjects of conversation: boys (I wasn’t dating, and these conversations bored me), music (I had different tastes, and couldn’t discuss this intelligently), and movies (which I rarely attended, and once again couldn’t discuss intelligently). I tried and tried to tell myself it was somehow “better” to have friends my own age than older friends, and that my boredom with this limited conversation range was my problem and not theirs, but in fact it was quite refreshing to make a few friends my age who could talk about other things, and to continue to make older friends as well. And today I still have mostly older friends, and nobody looks at me funny. Now, in fact, I have younger women who are looking up to me as an “older woman” from whom they can learn.
Segregation by age group, kids born between September 2001 and August 2002 or whatever, is really quite unnatural. And considering a child socially stilted because he can associate more comfortably with those of another age, for whatever reason, isn’t helpful. Again, that’s where I myself am–though I now can associate comfortable with people in their forties (my current age), associating with others of other ages has ultimately proved to be more helpful. A teen who can only associate with teens will be surly and rebellious with adults, and not a good employee. A teen who can associate politely and intelligently with all age groups is much better off–socially, in job skills, and in moral choices as well. And he will do better at being under authority and learning from them, which is an aid to spiritual growth. As a rule, homeschooling families do better here.
And that’s from someone who definitely isn’t a dyed-in-the-wool fan of homeschooling.
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You make an interesting point CherylD about the questionable effectiveness of clustering children by age, and one that I can relate to. My public school experience was often more solitary than it need have been, since I also preferred interacting with older kids and adults.
I homeschooled very briefly many years ago before it was so popular. May God give patience and wisdom to those who chose to do it regardless of the quality of the available public schools. And the same to those who don’t. This is purely a personal family choice. And I sincerely hope that homeschooling remains as unrestricted as possible so that parents who chose it are free to educate their children as they see fit—-as long as both parents are fully in agreement of course, because there is no doubt that it is a family effort that requires the support of both parents.
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“that is fairly consistently how you come across on this blog.”
23 He who guards his mouth and his tongue, Guards his soul from troubles.
24 Proud, Haughty, Scoffer, are his names, Who acts with insolent pride. Proverbs 21
It is our great concern to keep our souls from being entangled and disquieted. Pride and haughtiness make men passionate; such continually deal in wrath, as if it were their trade to be angry. Matthew Henry
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Spot on, CherylD (#134).
= = = =
Thanks for describing some of your school journey and your experience. I was a very social person in school, had a great experience (or so I thought at the time), and was a honors graduate having taken high level classes. For a public school student I was quite a success story!
And with all that I wish I’d been homeschooled. I wasted a lot of time in both high school in college learning on academics when what I really needed was moral and life skills instruction. So in our home school we make sure these things are covered too. Schools — even good ones today — focus entirely too much on academics. Or on their “no child left behind” tests. Our kids will know how to balance a checkbook, do their laundry, budget their money, prepare nutritious meals, plan ahead, be generous and more — all things I was not or could not do when I graduated. Those things in addition to the academics we feel led to guide them through.
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Like Cheryl D., I am glad I was not homeschooled simply because my mother would have been unable to do it well. She was very intelligent, but had no idea how to teach, or how to deal with children over the age of one, and she was no kind of positive role model. Her own social skills were near zero (at one point she was diagnosed with agoraphobia), and she distrusted anyone with a college education. If she had tried to homeschool me, I would have ended up mostly teaching myself – which I did anyway in public school by reading the textbooks, and I would have missed out on the positive role models I had in various teachers over the years, who were the only adults I really trusted.
My mother was far from typical (about as far as one can be!), but there are definitely some parents who should not homeschool. I would guess that the more that homeschooling is pushed, such as in some conservative churches, the more likely it is that parents who are not suited to the task will feel obligated to do it anyway. When parents are able to choose homeschooling because they really want to, they will likely do well at it, and their kids will do well. Probably the homeschooled kids who do not learn social skills well have parents who are somewhat lacking in that regard themselves. That’s one reason I would not feel comfortable homeschooling.
Also like Cheryl D., I went through public school with very few friends, and preferring the company of adults or older children. I think (from people I have known or whom I’ve read about) that is common for children of a certain temperament and who learn quickly. I had little patience with kids my own age who couldn’t understand things as well as I could, who enjoyed what I considered silly games, and who got excited over silly things. (Unfortunately, in church that included seeing other kids getting excited about God.)
It’s not the public school’s fault that I was that way, though. I had plenty of opportunities to make friends, I just didn’t want them. I liked books and learning and I was happier doing that than spending time with other people. The only person I generally played with was my sister, more than five years older than me. I think it rarely if ever occurred to me as a child that I shouldn’t be able to do whatever she could do. Not just in terms of things like a later bedtime, but being able to write and color well, and later to sew and cook and type. She taught me whatever she was learning in school – which was good because I would never have learned it from our mother.
I can imagine having done well being homeschooled with a different kind of parent, one who could involve me in social settings without pushing me beyond what I was ready for. My parents would put me on a bus and send me someplace, and when I got there I would have to deal with strangers because there was no one with me to turn to for help, but instead of learning to be comfortable in that situation I simply learned even more to retreat into myself where I felt safe. People often got the impression that I was very mature for my age, because I didn’t act silly or break rules. But inside I was terrified of adult responsibilities, because all I really knew how to do well was be a student.
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Pauline, thanks for telling your story. I personally desperately wanted friends, and tried hard to make them–sometimes in creative ways, like going out of my way to help new students, thinking that they might become my friends. But my clothes were definitely unstylish, I tended to be rather unloving in the way I witnessed (showing shock if a kid used bad language, and using that to tell them about hell, for instance–that’s a made-up example, since I don’t remember how I did it, but I don’t think I did it well), and I simply had never learned any social skills at all. And I wasn’t graceful, so I wasn’t an asset to a team in sports, other than dodgeball. It would have served me well for someone to actively teach me a few things I needed to learn, such as how to give compliments, how to use gentle speech or say nothing at all if others didn’t measure up to my standards, and how to jump rope (I wasn’t allowed to join in the game very often, and thus never learned basics other girls knew, such as how to get in and out when the rope was turning), and more. At recess, I read (if the teacher didn’t take the book away), talked to the teacher, watched other kids play, walked around picking up pretty rocks, or swung on a swing if one was available. I had a couple of kids who played with me occasionally, but usually recess wasn’t for playing; it was for wishing I had a friend to play with. My older brothers had all been promoted a grade or two when they were in school; such promotions weren’t being still done when I was in school, but I would have benefitted–more challenging schoolwork and probably a bit better chance to make friends.
Oh, and we church-hopped so much that the possibility of making friends at church simply never occurred to me.
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I’ve read many of the comments here – they are sadly lacking in joy or any sort of fulfillment.
When I read about those who have found fault with everything their parents did, everything they gave their children, be it ever so small, do any remember anything to be thankful for – was everything so one-sided that there wasn’t even a drop of responsibility on the part of the child?
Does GOD make mistakes? – what I’m reading is that everyone is at fault, everyone let down their child – the child was a wonderful and brilliant human being, most likely the most highly IQ’ed little individual in the area, but with all this intelligence couldn’t assert themselves to the point to see THEIR PROBLEM, only to blame their parent/parents – oh my, the individual claims the IQ of a genus but can’t find their way because their parents aren’t perfect. This is nothing short of nutty – there are millions of kids who have come from the worst slums, the most awful home-life, but logically figure out how they must proceed to accomplish their goals.
Brilliance is thinking in such a logical way as to come to a decision which will have the desired results. Playing with fictional ideas based on books which tickle the senses is often used by those who desire magical thinking. When all else fails, they blame their surroundings, and that of their parents when their fairy tale like plans have evaporated into thin air.
In this day an age, we have a whole generation of children/young adults/older adults who believe they too have been deprived of what’s owed them – has anything changed? – nope, not a thing, just the date and the year, it’s nothing more than the “poor me” syndrome played out year after year since Cain killed Abel.
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I’ve read many of the comments here – they are sadly lacking in joy or any sort of fulfillment.
Hi Victoria,
Are you sure you posted to the right thread? I don’t see a lack of fulfillment displayed in the comments. On the contrary, people seem to be pretty happy with their ability to choose.
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Victoria,
I have found fulfilment as an adult, once I got out on my own and found good role models. But this thread was about homeschooling, and that deals with childhood, and with one’s parents.
My parents taught me honesty – or at least they tried to. It never occurred to them than I might lie, since for the most part I was very honest. So when I chose to lie they never questioned it, because of course they knew I was honest. It was my fault I lied, but wiser parents might have considered the possibility that I was not perfectly honest. My mother expressed surprise, when as an adult I admitted this, because she had apparently thought I was perfect. I knew I wasn’t, but I couldn’t imagine talking to my parents about it. My mother suspected that I was the reincarnation of her mother, and turned to me for advice and comfort. My father just buried his nose in a book when he wasn’t at work or doing volunteer work.
They also taught, by their example, to take care of the people in society that other people ignore. We never had any company who were “normal,” only people who were blind or deaf or retarded or in wheelchairs, including one who was incontinent and always smelled of urine. I resented having them over so often, or going out to picnics with them. I knew I should feel compassion for them, but I didn’t. I felt guilty about it, but didn’t know how to change.
That was what led to my becoming a Christian, because I knew I was proud and selfish and unloving, and I wanted God to change me. My parents thought the Bible-believing church I started going to was a bunch of narrow-minded bigots, who did terrible things like telling other people they would go to hell if they didn’t believe in Jesus Christ. But they were surprisingly open to my going there, saying – as with all other decisions – it was up to me to decide for myself. They didn’t approve, precisely because they did think everyone should choose their own way to God without being told they’d go to hell if they chose a different way. But they left that choice up to me.
If they had tried to homeschool me, I think it would have been a disaster, both because of their faults and mine. My mother once said I should be interested in something besides getting better grades than the rest of the class, and in 8th grade agreed with my science teacher’s comment on my report card that he’d like to see me interact more with other students, but aside from that they rarely if ever tried to correct me.
It wasn’t until I was in college that an RA and later a professor talked to me and made me realize just how proud and selfish I was. I mean, I knew I was, but I didn’t realize how much it came across in my words and actions. I had come to faith in Christ a few years earlier, and tried to grow spiritually but without much inward change. I was unfortunately too good at doing well at outward things like memorizing Bible verses and being faithful in attendance at church and youth group, and being involved in whatever outreach programs we had, and giving my testimony in church. So people thought I was a pretty good Christian, and even though I knew I wasn’t, it was too easy to enjoy impressing people by reciting lots of bible verses.
Then my Spanish prof in college made me take a good look at myself, and I was very ashamed, and for the first time really felt awful about my sin and really grateful for forgiveness. I wish now someone had done that for me earlier in life, but I was too good, I guess, at giving the impression of the perfect daughter and perfect student. Yes, that was my fault, but like any child I needed correction. I didn’t get it at school, but at least I had examples there of adults who were not only honest and generous like my parents but also had reasonably good social and emotional skills, which my parents did not. (I’ve talked elsewhere about my father’s violent rages and my mother’s depression.)
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I appreciate the heartfelt sharing that Cheryl and Pauline did. I don’t think it is whining, because both women seem to be wonderful people now.
Victoria, some people’s parents really would have been better off to NOT be parents. And, even good parents goof up and it doesn’t help to pretend they don’t, so long as we show grace for it.
As someone who has been in public schools, taught in public and private schools, and had my kids in private school until they were homeschooled, I am one of the last to tell anyone that they HAVE to homeschool.
I truly believe that different kids have different needs…often even having different needs at different times in their lives.
If we could have afforded it, we MIGHT have put my oldest in one of the Christian private schools in the area for his last year of high school. NOT for the academics (they aren’t well-known for it), but the school does have a good heart, and he already has enough credits to graduate high school if he wanted to.
I won’t get into it more, but the thought of putting him in school for the last year was just so that he could have more fun. Unfortunately, we just can’t afford it.
However, having taught in public schools, and even in “good schools”, I know that is not where I want my kids. Still, I can imagine situations where I might have to put them there. And, I realize that some kids are definitely better off there than at home. I taught kids who had parents that I wouldn’t have let babysit a houseplant, and who should never have had kids of their own.
So, they certainly shouldn’t have been home schooling!
But, it does bug me when people pull out the stereotypes about home schooling. And, more, having worked in public schools, and had a family heavily involved in public schools, it bugs me when people are so unaware of how poor they can be — even the “good” ones, especially on a child’s world view. (My dad taught for 40 years. My mother was a teacher’s aide for 20. My sister and SIL still teach in public schools.)
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#130
You live in La Jolla, Calfornia…right? I remember from a long ago thread.
I lived in San Diego for much of my life. I know about La Jolla. I went to UCSD (which is in La Jolla). There is a reason that I brought up money in relation to La Jolla.
If you have people living around you that don’t have money, they are few and far between. (And, likely working as maids, or some other sort of servant, because they are unlikely to own property there.)
There have been some apartments built there in the last number of years, but even they are pretty ritzy, and certainly don’t have a lot of lower class persons living in them.
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And, lest I don’t look as if I know what I’m talking about:
http://www.lajolla-california-relocation.com/demo.htm
“Dominant Characteristics: The people in La Jolla are in the Top One Percent economically.
These are the wealthiest neighborhoods in the United States. Residents are older, married couples, and cosmopolitan. They drive luxury cars and visit museums. They rank highest on most consumer expenditures with families being married couples in their peak earning years. This highly educated type is the top-ranked group for investments, drinking wine, and ordering by phone.”
La Jolla also has less than 1% of Blacks, and only about 2% Mexican-Americans…and, this in a state where Mexican-Americans are the majority in many areas. It is not particularly diverse ethnically, unless you’re counting white persons from various European countries.
And, http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/La_Jolla-California-92037.aspx
In addition: “The median home cost in La Jolla (zip 92037) is $1,417,750. Home appreciation the last year has been -29.60 percent.
Compared to the rest of the country, La Jolla (zip 92037)’s cost of living is 216.60% Higher than the U.S. average.”
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So, my argument is NOT that there should be some sort of “class warfare” but rather that you really can’t call La Jolla schools “diverse” and claim that kids are learning some sort of diversity there than home schoolers can’t/aren’t getting.
Kids in your neighborhood are — for the most part with a few minor exceptions — associating with other wealthy, White, upper-class children of privilege.
If I am wrong about where you live specifically, I do remember from previous posts that you live in an area very like La Jolla, and so I just don’t buy the diversity argument.
The one or two poor, non-white children that a kid might “associate” with in such areas does not count as “diversity.”
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WRONG, I don’t live there – I have had close relatives who have lived in many areas of California, La Jolla being one of them.
YOU WRITE:I lived in San Diego for much of my life. I know about La Jolla. I went to UCSD (which is in La Jolla). There is a reason that I brought up money in relation to La Jolla. If you have people living around you that don’t have money, they are few and far between. (And, likely working as maids, or some other sort of servant, because they are unlikely to own property there.)”
Even if I did live in La Jolla your snide remark about money was uncalled for in post #129.
– - – - – - AS YOU WROTE in post 129.
TRS – 129 YOU WRITE: “And, honestly, when you yourself admitted that only those with money can even buy homes in your school district, are you really going to keep trying to say that the students in your local public schools are *really* interacting with a diverse group of students?”
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The information from the link above is laughable – The figures aren’t correct even for 2001 – the home prices were much higher and the incomes as well – the interesting part of your little LINK? – the ethnic groups are much higher, in fact the figures which your untitled undocumented material comes from is a joke. You may have lived near La Jolla, but you certainly were not acquainted with those who live there or their ethnic backgrounds.
There are a lot of people who are jealous of those who live in La Jolla – however they never take into consideration the enormous amounts of money which these people give so that hospitals, clinics and research will go on helping others – that completely goes over their heads, all they can see is the lovely homes. The rest of the list is nonsense, such as:
“Residents are older, married couples, and cosmopolitan. They drive luxury cars and visit museums. drinking wine, and ordering by phone.”
Who concocted this? – Most people of any ethnic/socio/economic group order by phone, and have for YEARS, drink wine, visit museums and countless numbers of people drive luxury cars, there are many 30 – 50 year olds who own and live in La Jolla, again your LINK isn’t true – - – - this is probably one of the silliest lists I’ve ever read, and this is your defense? – LOL
The second link is no better – home prices have gone down, just like every other city in CA.
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Whether you buy my statements or not is your choice, however you are now accusing me of being untruthful, which I am not. The area in which I live is diverse, you my dear do not know what you are talking about.
I’m not going to give you the name of the city in which I live, its none of your business. However, your comments point up a very prejudice view that people come to when they have none of the facts and ASSUME they know that of which they are ignorant. It’s a shame TRS that you think I would be untruthful. I don’t live a double standard life, sitting on the fence regarding the Bible and my life as an example.
Your statement and remarks about me are disapointing, however I should have known better than to have expected anything more, what a shame.
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Victoria,
I simply refer you to your own words: “when people look at we who are as Christian Evangelicals and see us as being so strident, unbending and unkind, they turn away, maybe in sorrow or just plain disgust . . .”
As Cheryl pointed out, this is consistently how you come across in this blog. Sometimes, you can be really nice, but you are about as strident and unbending as just about anyone I’ve ever run across. And, sometimes, you can be very, very unkind. Assumptions run both ways.
As for my point, you seemed to have missed that entirely. I would try to explain it again, but I fear it would just be more time and result in the same.
My apologies for upsetting you. I really do know better.
And, to everyone else, I apologize for continuing to try to explain something when I knew it was a lost cause, leading to some less than flattering views of Christians and their interactions.
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TRS, take the time to look at that statement I made in post #133 in context, instead of trying to use it against me to your advantage- its a cheap shot –
When I observe this staunch lock-step approach, I’m not surprised when people look at we who are as Christian Evangelicals and see us as being so strident, unbending and unkind, they turn away, maybe in sorrow or just plain disgust. ______
NOW LETS READ THE REST TRS, not your selected line out of context to use as a whipping cord against me ______
Our witness as Christians Believers should encompass everyone — public school is not a church, too many people in many areas across America are forced in unsafe, lower income areas to send their children to sub-standard unsafe public schools, this SHOULD NOT BE. For those of us who live to the contrary I do believe it is a challenge, to show respect and kindness to others who don’t have the advantages we have. Remember one thing Fuzzyface, there will ALWAYS be public school – shouldn’t that challenge the Church of Jesus Christ to reach these kids for HIM?”
As a teacher, I would have imagined you to keep things in context, and to encourage your students to do likewise, maybe that only applies to others, not you?
Very different when you put this in context – You can’t admit you are wrong, so you switch and bait back to something which is another personal attack. You and your friends can stick together and accuse me of whatever makes you feel better, it will have no effect.
You have not upset me at all TRS, but you have opened my eyes to how many feel in their hearts about people who live in areas such as La Jolla – It wasn’t a “lost cause” TRS, it was your ASSUMING to know things which you have no knowledge of.
Make no mistake, you haven’t explained anything, you’ve stuck your foot in it, and now you want to switch and bait, it’s an old game.
First you used the excuse of “money” which I never mentioned, and when that didn’t work you decided to discuss La Jolla, and since that didn’t work you have used a very small partial quote I made to try and salvage whatever you can from your accusations against me.
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