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Good morning!
Today’s quote is from an early church father:
“I exhort you, press on in your course, and exhort all men that they may be saved.”
Welcome to our daily (except Sundays) open thread, where you, the commenters, choose the topics of conversation.
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back to top155 Comments to “Whirled Views 6.3”
As usual, I don’t know the name of the auther of the quote, and care less. Was it Groucho Marx?
The Groucho Marx radio and television quiz show You Bet Your Life featured asecret word.. When a contestant blurted the word accidentally, a toy duck descended from the ceiling to indicate a team of contestants had just won $100, as the studio audience screamed with glee.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Bet_Your_Life
Peter L’s comment yesterday in Whirled Views, directed at me: You are a nattering nabob of narcissism. wins yesterday’s edition of You Bet Your Soul on worldmagblog for accurately describing me as a narcissistic personality.
I don’t deliver the prizes. Only Jesus can do that.
However, I will announce a preliminary, provisional award.
My grandmother Agnes (my father’s mother) was a dreadful monster of narcissism. My father’s three sisters (my aunts) were quite narcissistic, also, though not quite as bad as Grandma Agnes.
With genes such as that, I didn’t have much chance. For the last several months, I have been contemplating the idea that I am in fact a serious narcissistic personality. For various reasons, it seems obvious to me that worldmagblog is a very bad place for a person with such a personality defect to hang out. After thinking it over, I’ve decided to pander to myself in one last dreadful orgy of narcissistic self-indulgence through the end of June and then take six months off from posting at wmb…except for one last scorpion stinger to make everyone suffer.
Be ready to scroll. Be ready to scroll quickly, without reading.
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Narcissism is a term used to describe a focus on the self and self-admiration that is taken to an extreme. The word “narcissism” comes from a Greek myth in which a handsome young man named Narcissus sees his reflection in a pool of water and falls in love with it.
Narcissistic personality disorder is one of a group of conditions called dramatic personality disorders. People with these disorders have intense, unstable emotions, and a distorted self-image. Narcissistic personality disorder is further characterized by an abnormal love of self, an exaggerated sense of superiority and importance, and a preoccupation with success and power. However, these attitudes and behaviors do not reflect true self-confidence. Instead, the attitudes conceal a deep sense of insecurity and a fragile self-esteem. People with this personality disorder also tend to set unrealistic goals.
What are the symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder?
In many cases, people with narcissistic personality disorder:
Are self-centered and boastful
Seek constant attention and admiration
Consider themselves better than others
Exaggerate their talents and achievements
Believe that they are entitled to special treatment
Are easily hurt but might not show it
Might take advantage of others to achieve their goals
Other common traits of narcissistic personality disorder include the following:
Preoccupation with fantasies that focus on unlimited success, power, intelligence, beauty, or love
Belief that he or she is “special” and unique, and can only be understood by other special people
Expectation that others will automatically go along with what he or she wants
Inability to recognize or identify with the feelings, needs, and viewpoints of others
Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her
Hypersensitivity to insults (real or imagined), criticism, or defeat, possibly reacting with rage, shame, and humiliation
Arrogant behavior and/or attitude
What causes narcissistic personality disorder?
The exact cause of narcissistic personality disorder is not known. However, many mental health professionals believe it results from extremes in child rearing. For example, the disorder might develop as the result of excessive pampering, or when a child’s parents have a need for their children to be talented or special in order to maintain their own self-esteem. On the other end of the spectrum, narcissistic personality disorder might develop as the result of neglect or abuse and trauma inflicted by parents or other authority figures during childhood. The disorder usually is evident by early adulthood.
How is narcissistic personality disorder diagnosed?
If symptoms are present, the doctor will begin an evaluation by performing a complete medical history and physical exam. Although there are no laboratory tests to specifically diagnose personality disorders, the doctor might use various diagnostic tests—such as X-rays and blood tests—to rule out a physical illness as the cause of the symptoms.
If the doctor finds no physical reason for the symptoms, he or she might refer the person to a psychiatrist or psychologist, health care professionals who are specially trained to diagnose and treat mental illnesses. Psychiatrists and psychologists use specially designed interview and assessment tools to evaluate a person for a personality disorder.
How is narcissistic personality disorder treated?
There is no known cure for narcissistic personality disorder, but psychotherapy (a type of counseling) might help the person learn to relate to others in a more positive and rewarding way. Psychotherapy tries to provide the person with greater insight into his or her problems and attitudes in the hope that this will change behavior. The goal of therapy is to help the person develop a better self-esteem and more realistic expectations of others. Medicine might be used to treat the distressing symptoms, such as behavioral problems, that might occur with this disorder.
What are the complications of narcissistic personality disorder?
People with narcissistic personality disorder might abuse drugs and/or alcohol as a way of coping with their symptoms. The disorder also might interfere with the development of healthy relationships with others.
What is the outlook for people with narcissistic personality disorder?
The prognosis depends on the severity of the disorder.
Can narcissistic personality disorder be prevented?
There is no known way to prevent narcissistic personality disorder.
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Oh, I think you can choose not to think about yourself so much.
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Thank you, Kim.
Only Jesus can prevent narcissistic personality disorder. I shall call upon Victoria to help me.
Pray for me, Victoria. Pray hard. Pray very hard.
Among Catholics, de-narcissm/b> will replace exorcism as the most frequent activity by which carefully trained and selected priests will battle Satan.
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2. That certainly explains several Producers I’ve worked with.
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As a narcissist, I will try that again.
Among Catholics, exnarcissism will replace exorcism as the most frequent activity by which carefully trained and selected priests will battle Satan.
(Satan messed up my typing and HTML coding in my previous comment.)
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Zen Buddhists ask, What is the sound of one hand clapping?
Zen bloggers ask what is the sound of an empty comment?
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So, what’s this with hating such a vibrant color as ORANGE? Granted, it doesn’t work in all instances, but it’s a great color! And I can see patent shoes, too.
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Be encouraged, RANDOM, we all suffer from narcissism to one degree or other;it’s rooted in pride.
Even the person who degrades himself, “Nobody likes me, I can’t do anything right.” is preoccupied with self. Some may mistake it for humility because he’s not boasting about accomplishment but rather admitting faults. But it’s really about “Look at me, look at how much I’ve suffered.”
Maybe you’re just a crotchety kind of guy. Rough around the edges but overall, harmless.
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I just caught up on the last 50 or so posts in yesterday’s WV. At the risk of starting up another fashion thread, I have to comment on the “orange” thing. If you live in Baltimore, as I do, you must own and wear orange apparel. Anyone care to take a guess why?
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Looks like it’s back to pink pumps.
Kim, I doubt that anyone outside the South knows what a RC Cola is.
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8. It was my high school color and I had to wear it every Friday night for three years. Plus (speaking of narcissism) I am a Winter and I have been told it does not go with my skin tone.
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“So, what’s this with hating such a vibrant color as ORANGE?”
Only you minority folks with Flaming Autumn skin colors can get away with wearing it. The rest of us (99%) winter colored folks look hideous in Orange…
NO ORANGE. (Besides, those are UFL colors!
)
Black, White, Red, Navy Blue, and Ash… Classic colors for winters. Stick with ‘em I say…. (Besides, Red and Black are UGA colors
)
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9. Reminds me of a quote by Ann Lamont, that she considered herself a “A piece of s… around which the world revolved.
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Anybody else being overrun with rodents this year? We have a huge overpopulation of mice, voles, and gophers this year. I have an interesting line of mouse holes out in the yard. A fairly straight line stretching about ten feet with about eight neat little holes. That expanded in the past couple of days to closer to thirty feet and a whole lot more holes but still in the straight line. It is like they have laid out a new city complete with surveyed roads. Anyway, everywhere we turn they are out there. Happily, not in the house for quite some time. None of them have been wearing orange or pink, more of a gray and black season with some white for contrast.
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Sometimes I read stuff here that is exactly what I was thinking, but I’m terrible at putting it to words.
Cheryl D’s posts on the Tiller thread are very good. Her responses and reaction to the Dr’s death were a fine representation of the pro-life view, despite what some of the pro-abortion people think. I would like to thank her. Thank you Cheryl D
And you can take heart in knowing that lots of people, even some we wouldn’t agree with in most instances, such as James Kirchick, know that we “Christianists” are not to blame for this.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124398690567579389.html#mod=rss_opinion_main
“I happen to support a legal regime that would, in Bill Clinton’s famous words, keep abortion safe, legal and rare. I hold no brief for the religious right, and its views on homosexuality in particular offend (and affect) me personally. But it’s precisely because of my identity that I consider comparisons between so-called Christianists (who seek to limit my rights via the ballot box) and Islamic fundamentalists (who seek to limit my rights via decapitation) to be fatuous.
In the coming days, we will hear more about how mainstream conservative organizations and media personalities created an “environment” in which the murder of an abortion doctor became an inevitability. Just as talk radio was blamed for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, an attempt will be made to extend the guilt for this crime from the individual who pulled the trigger to the conservative movement writ large. But the Christian right’s responsible reaction to the death of George Tiller should put to rest the lie that Judeo-Christian extremists are anywhere near as numerous or dangerous as those of the Muslim variety.”
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#10, Mommy—
A lot of Dutch people live there?
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The soil in these mountains wouldn’t support a mole, very few earthworms.
I hate orange, it reminds me of Tigers.
But I like to eat them (oranges, that is).
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So, no one has yet tried to guess today’s quote.
I really have no idea. I’ll guess Clement of Rome.
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Ok, I Googled it. My guess was wrong. Now it’s someone else’s turn.
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The quote sounded an awful lot like the Apostle Paul to me.. but it ain’t.
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I figured it had something to do with Orioles but, as I am not a sports fan and did live in Baltimore at one time and did not wear orange, but did not stay longer than having a baby takes, don’t actually know.
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From the White House website:
President Barack Hussein Obama said the following to a French jouranlist on June 1, 2009.
“…I think that the United States and the West generally, we have to educate ourselves more effectively on Islam.”
I agree and that education should begin with the President himself so that he can better protect us from the many real and rising dangers that radical Islam presents to innocent people world-wide and that he learn how widespread radical forms of Islam are in today’s world (including Arkansas).
The President continued;
“…if you actually took the number of Muslims Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.”
Here is a perfect example of why this President desperately needs an education on Islam (and America, for that matter). This is simply not true. We have a tiny Muslim population and even liberal estimates do not put us on the population map anywhere near other Muslim nations (as if we should even be referred to as a “Muslim country”, let alone one of the “largest” ones in the world).
______
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Mommy,
Or is it an Irish Protestent thing?
Chas,
We have Royal Crown Cola in the Golden State.
As for the wearing of orange, my first granddaughter is half black and her skin makes her look fantastic on orange. I can’t wear it until I have my summer tan and then I go for the most garrish shake.
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No moles, but we have a terrible problem with ants. We have tried everything. Sometimes they go away for awhile but they just keep coming back.
Am I the only one who thinks it’s weird that Make-it-man know so much about skin tone types and the colors they should wear. (see post 13)
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What can I say? I bought “Color Me Beautiful” for all the women in my life…
It’s not weird.
I not only like to make things, I’m an artist (or at least a wannabee). Artists notice things like that.
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KBells,
Another vote? I don’t think it is weird. Perhaps you are weird to think it is though. But I can say that as everybody who knows me thinks me to be one of the odder people on the planet, in a weird sort of way.
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Random Name at #7 reminds me of my favorite Zen koan:
If a man speaks in a forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?
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I like orange – for oranges, orange juice, and safety vests. Also good for stuffed animals such as tigers and Garfields. Very good color for jack-o-lanterns and Halloween T-shirts and sweatshirts. And my older son just got his jazz choir T-shirt this week, which is orange with white lettering. I’m sure if I were in his jazz choir I’d be proud to wear it.
Today I’m actually wearing a shirt which is mostly brown with various shades of dark red and orange, though I’d say the orange is more of a “pumpkin” shade. Other than that, I think the only (non-Halloween) clothing I have with orange on it is a VOLS T-shirt my husband got me when we were in Knoxville (he went to grad school there).
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KBells, I’m with you on orange. I’m a winter, too, and it is not my color.
Thanks for the sensible quote AJ.
Mumsee, my niece just had a huge bull snake removed from her yard here in MN. The man removing it, asked if he could keep it. Apparently, he has gophers. My daughter in TN also had her husband remove a snake last year. Now she has gophers. I told her she needs to get the snake back–just not in her garage.
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KI,
Yes, I have realized my mistake and after careful consideration, did not kill the rattlesnake by the mailbox this year. I do regret my rash actions with the shovel last year but had I not done it, my kids would have been scared to step out the door and they have enough fears as it is.
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AJ, quoting Kirchcik: In the coming days, we will hear more about how mainstream conservative organizations and media personalities created an “environment” in which the murder of an abortion doctor became an inevitability. Just as talk radio was blamed for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, an attempt will be made to extend the guilt for this crime from the individual who pulled the trigger to the conservative movement writ large. But the Christian right’s responsible reaction to the death of George Tiller should put to rest the lie that Judeo-Christian extremists are anywhere near as numerous or dangerous as those of the Muslim variety.
I’m not sure anyone has said that they are “as dangerous” as “the Muslim variety.” I also don’t fully agree with Anlir’s view on the matter.
However, I think some are brushing away much too easily any consideration that rhetoric, yes, does matter. You cannot have entire organizations calling abortion providers “murderers” and “butchers,” putting out “wanted” posters with their pictures, stalking them at their homes, confronting them at their clinics, committing smaller acts of vandalism like pouring glue into the locks, referring to abortion as “America’s Holocaust” or “genocide” … and then pretend to be surprised when some individual with a screw loose takes all that to heart and decides an assassination is called for.
I will not blame the pro-life movement for Tiller’s murder — the murderer is the one who made the decision — but I do not think its more radical elements can get off the hook entirely.
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Mumsee, I think you did the right thing, I would rather face an army of gophers than one rattlesnake.
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SteveG. “If a man speaks in a forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?”
Well,yeah. What’s he doing in the forest anyway, when the grass needs to be cut and the dryer is broken.
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I stand by the points I’ve made this week:
1. Language does matter.
2. Language motivates people to take action.
3. The anti-choice movement has used intemperate language which caused one of their followers to take action.
4. The anti-choice movement needs to rid itself of the language of extremism that leads to violence and murder, and the radicals within it’s movement.
5. It’s wrong to denigrate someone who’s been murdered. Decent people don’t do such things.
I don’t care how much I’m ridiculed for it – I’m not going to back down one bit.
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“If a man speaks in a forest and no woman is there to hear him, is he still wrong?”
Depends. Is he still related to a SWMBO? If so, he’s still wrong, but at least he has peace for a while….
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“9. Reminds me of a quote by Ann Lamont, that she considered herself a “A piece of s… around which the world revolved.”
I cannot remember the play or novel that contained this line to give proper citation (or verify the name):
Edith was a small continent, bordered on the north, south, east, and west by Edith.
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Anlir,
Of course language matters. That’s why you should stop spewing your rhetoric at conservative Christians even though you have not basis for it.
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You do realize that your assertions about language are undermining your own position?
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I have to applaud Steve G for his balanced assessment of the situation. Kudos and a hat tip…
And I BOO Anlir right off the stage for his unbalanced, unfair, and hate filled rhetoric.
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“4. The anti-choice movement needs to rid itself of the language of extremism that leads to violence and murder, and the radicals within it’s movement.”
You’re asking us to violate our conscience. We cannot in good conscience simply ignore what we consider to be murder.
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In the last election members of a group known as The New Black Panther party (disavowed by Old Black Panthers who founded THAT group in the 60s) evidently intimidated voters in Philadelphia. The Panther men were at a polling place with firearms. They taunted voters: “Now you’ll know what its like to be under the rule of the black man!” One attorney who’d been a campaigner for RFK and had fought voter discrimination in the 60s said it was blatantly a violation of civil rights laws.
But now I read that Eric Holder has elected not to persecute the Panther bullies.
Is no one else tracking this?
See the story at WSJ opinionjournal dot com
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Change “persecute” to “prosecute”!! I hate it when that happens.
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What’s funny, MIM, is that he actually thinks he made those points.
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Words do matter. However, I can’t recall a single time when conservatives or anti-abortioniste have encouraged violence.
However, every Muslim is enjoined by the Koran and numerous fatwas to commit violence against unblievers. And Bill Ayres is proud of his attempts to bomb the Pentagon.
KBells, #34. I just finished cutting front and back. Now quit hollering at me.
Pauline: A VOLS t-shirt!
Take that shirt off rite now!
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Maybe Random isn’t the only NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) on WMB
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Yes, Mumsee, it’s “dem O’s”
Orioles, in Baltimorese).
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KBells, just this morning at BNI the guy from Wayne’s Environmental was talking about ants in the house. He said to cut your bushes and plantings back a foot from the house.
I have noticed that when we don’t have enough rain, I have more ants in the house and there is an old wives tale that a house with ants won’t have roaches.
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Okay, Make It Man, I’ll take a wild guess. I might’ve guessed Clement of Rome if you hadn’t already, but I’ll try Ignatius of Antioch just because I think the earlier church fathers tended to sound more like the New Testament epistles than the ones a century or two later, and he wrote lots of epistles.
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Oh man, so close! I was even thinking when I guessed Ignatius that the actual author of the quote was probably the recipient. Oh well.
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Mumsee, I sure wasn’t talking rattlesnakes. I don’t have to worry about them here. All of our snakes are harmless.
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SteveG says,
All of those activities are not equivalent, and while some are over the top, other are perfectly justifiable. Are you suggesting that we should refrain from using strong rhetoric even to describe great evil because some people might go off the rails when they hear it?
It’s not that the people who engage in the crazy stuff are inciting violence against abortionists. Rather, I would assume that they’re the very ones who are most likely committing it. Do you really think that perhaps this guy saw a wanted poster and then decided to go kill George Tiller. More likely, he would be the kind of person who would make the poster.
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MiM @#36: What is a SWMBO? A couple of guesses:
Single, Woman whose Man is Beyond Ordinary?
Single, White Male w/Body Odor?
Single, Wedded Male BBQ Operator?
RN- Thank you for the award. I guess my joke took on quite a life, eh?
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Peter L, it’s She Who Must Be Obeyed. From an English author I can’t remember.
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Ree: All of those activities are not equivalent, and while some are over the top, other are perfectly justifiable. Are you suggesting that we should refrain from using strong rhetoric even to describe great evil because some people might go off the rails when they hear it?
I am saying that the cumulative effect of all of these things creates a very distinct implication that abortion is such a great moral evil that violence might be justified to stop it.
Ultimately the killer is the one who went over the edge, and bears the sole responsibility for that. But standing behind him are the people who nudged him along, probably unintentionally, but still through deliberate decisions about the messages they sent, and I do not see how they’re not partly to blame.
You don’t get to stand in a crowd on the ground loudly chanting “jump! jump!” to a person standing on a ledge 15 stories up and then disclaim any responsibility when he jumps.
Exactly what the solution is, I don’t presume to know. I do think both sides should ratchet down the hysrteria, and let’s maybe agree that abortion rights supporters don’t think of it as murdering babies, and abortion rights opponents don’t think of their position as turning women into baby factories, and try actually talking to each other, rather than screaming at each other.
If you believe abortion is murdering babies, you’re not doing one bit of good at changing someone’s mind by screaming “killer!” at them.
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#35, Anlir wrote; “I stand by the points I’ve made this week: 1. Language does matter.”
But, Anlir, you specifically cited my comments in particular as an explanation for “how you end up with Christian Militias that start killing people.” That specific and personal accusation demands evidence, Anlir, not just a beligerant expression about standing by your points and making a vague proposition about human language in general.
Anlir wrote; “The anti-choice movement needs to rid itself of the language of extremism that leads to violence and murder, and the radicals within it’s movement.”
But Anlir, your specific acccusation against me were in reference to comments I made that had NOTHING to do with choice or abortion. I was asking a fair question about democracy itself and I gave specific examples about recent challenges to authentic democratic principle & practice.
I ask you:
* How does that lead to “killing people?”
* What other forms of free speech and genuine dissent do you think leads to “killing people?”
* Why couldn’t you actually deal with my specific examples reasonably?
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“My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be
unpopular.”~ ~Adlai Stevenson
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I call abortionists murderers all the time because that’s what they are. They are killers. You have never heard me advocate that they be murdered themselves. I have never incited anyone to go out and murder anyone, but I refuse to be silenced by people who just don’t want the truth to be said. Too bad.
This desire to squelch free speech on the part of liberals is most distasteful, not to mention unconstitutional.
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Deet says to Random Name, “Maybe you’re just a crotchety kind of guy. Rough around the edges but overall, harmless.”
Oh yeah? Try telling that to the cute little bunnies he’s killed merely for wanting a little meal in his garden!
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Chas – I’ve heard of RC (Royal Crown) Cola. Maybe it’s from when I was little & we lived in Tenn. or Ohio. Not sure if we have it here in Conn.
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Random kills bunnies?
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Interesting topic on speech and its possible impact on inciting people to violence. I lean toward thinking that in a society where free speech is a cornerstone, we should not be restricting it. I liked the Stevenson quote in #57.
However, I’ve also been bothered when I read of groups putting up web pages targeting specific abortion doctors with personal information posted on them (at least that is my impression of what’s been done, I’ve never really seen any of them to be honest).
I agree with Ree, though, that those are likely the people (the more unstable among them anyway) who would commit violence, they’re not going to push someone else over the edge who wasn’t over the edge already. Crazies exist touting all kinds of causes, they usually have a whole bunch of other personal issues going on that truly drive their actions.
But still, speech and its impact for good or ill is a worthy topic for all of us to consider and think about.
Again I appreciate those on wmb who offer reasoned, fair-minded posts. It’s OK to disagree, it’s OK to disagree strongly and in no uncertain terms. But we should be able to do so without personal attacks or demonizing the “other” side. Passion is OK, sometimes we all feel the need to speak bluntly to get a point across, but it might help to always remember to be respectful of the person/people we’re addressing.
I try to presume that those who feel strongly about something have well-intentioned motives, even if I think they’re entirely wrong about something.
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Lynn is channeling through Donna.
This is another way of saying “hate the sin, love the sinner”, which is where we come down on Tiller and his murderer. Both of those men sinned, and took lives in a morally wrong way (I’m speaking for Christian regulars here). But none of us wanted to personally take a weapon in out hands and cause them to stop breathing.
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(62). Yeah, I’m getting one of those short cute ‘dos today, too.
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Okay, Donna, tell us: What’s Sarah Palin really like? Now that you’re spending all that time with her and all . . .
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I call abortionists murderers all the time because that’s what they are.
See, that right there stops all dialogue period. End of discussion. It’s exactly what I’m talking about. It’s as offensive as walking up to a black person and calling them the “N” word. If y’all want to call those of us on the pro-choice side “murderers” then all bets are off. Them’s fightin’ words as they say.
I’ve always said that when it comes to abortion, this site is home to some of the most radical anti-choice folk around. I’ve been proven right in spades over the last few days.
And let’s look at the records:
The pro-choice side has not bombed (or threatened to bomb) your clinics and your crisis pregnancy centers. The pro-choice side has not murdered (or threaten to murder) your clinic workers and volunteers. The pro-choice side has not blockaded your clinics and centers, thrown nails in the driveway, harassed your workers and volunteers, picketed the homes of your clinic workers or volunteers, made harassing phone calls, or mailed threatening letters to their homes.
The anti-choice side has done all those things and more.
If the anti-choice side will renounce the language of extremism, the tactics of terrorism, and rid themselves of their radical element, we might have a basis for discussion. Otherwise, no deal.
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Right, everyone. We should all look to Anlir as our example for how to carry on a peaceful, reasoned discussion.
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Donna at #62,
I agree with you for the most part. Especially this part.
“However, I’ve also been bothered when I read of groups putting up web pages targeting specific abortion doctors with personal information posted on them (at least that is my impression of what’s been done, I’ve never really seen any of them to be honest).”
I think most here would agree that this is wrong. But what I’d like to point out is the hypocrisy from the other side. While they agree that it’s wrong in cases such as abortion, they have no problem with it when their side does it in other cases. While they decry it in this case, they have no problem with it when those on the recieving end are people like AIG executives. They had no problem when AIG execs. were getting protested at their homes, threatened with bodily harm, and having their properties vandalized. Then it’s OK. I’d like to see them be more consistent. Either it’s wrong, or it’s not. I think it’s wrong in both cases.
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68. Not to mention people who contributed to Prop 8 and were protested out of their jobs.
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What I really don’t understand is how Anlir can say that strong language motivates others to kill, and that those who use the strong language are responsible for the murders when others do kill . . . and then repeatedly use the most vicious language for Christians. According to his own argument, he’s motivating other people to kill Christians. Is that deliberate, or is it hypocrisy?
And honestly, according to one article that I read about Tiller, he killed 60,000 times. We’re really supposed to sit back and not say anything about that on the basis that pointing it out might anger someone enough to go kill him? Why does a killer of thousands get a free pass from strong language, while Christians who oppose murder do not?
BTW, if an article I read from a generally reliable source is accurate, Tiller knew he was killing human beings with souls. After each of his murders, he would baptize the babies. How much greater an indication of blood guilt can a man give than that?!
I oppose murder, categorically, and have said so repeatedly. But why oh why should we be more concerned for the life of the murderer (not calling him a murderer lest it endanger him) than for the lives of the thousands he killed? Life doesn’t work that way, that we shield wicked people by pretending that they aren’t wicked people. Even Anlir himself isn’t willing to shield “wicked Christianists” from violent lunatics by toning down his rhetoric, for all his insistence that we do so.
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#59. OH MY GOSH, KAREN, you’re right!! How could I forget that. And what about the “genocide” RANDOM proposed against slugs!?
Change his designation to “Crotchety and Dangerous”!
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Yeah 67,
chuckle..tee hee…chuckle chuckle..chortle..uproarious laughter. Thank you for that, now it is back to the battle of the weeds. Of course, if I take out the weeds, I will be able to see the rattle snakes. But I need the rattlesnakes to balance the gopher/vole/mouse population. So many quandaries in life.
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Anlir says,
“The pro-choice side has not bombed (or threatened to bomb) your clinics and your crisis pregnancy centers. The pro-choice side has not murdered (or threaten to murder) your clinic workers and volunteers.”
To which I say,
You”re right, they haven’t. And 99.9999% of pro-lifers haven’t either. And while your side may not have murdered any clinic workers, the same cannot be said about babies. You whine about the deaths of about 10 people in the history of the abortion debate, and completely ignore the millions of deaths your side has actually inflicted, and continues to inflict daily. Your comparing grains of sand to huge boulders. Somebody has a broken compass alright. And it’s not us.
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Wow, 60,000 to 1. Thats comparing a grain of sand to an entire planet Anlir. No gnashing of teeth and wailing for the 60,000. Only for the 1 who inflicted it huh Anlir?
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Thoughtful Quotes:
* “It would be considered a disgrace if an umpire in a baseball game let his “empathy” determine whether a pitch was called a ball or strike. Surely we should accept nothing less from a judge. ” ~ Thomas Sowell, June 2, 2009.
* “Laws are made for the benefit of the citizens, not for the self-indulgences of judges. Making excuses for such self-indulgences and calling them “inevitable” is part of the cleverness that has eroded the rule of law and undermined respect for the law. ” ~ Thomas Sowell, June 2, 2009.
________________
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Do you think there might have been at least 10 cases where a woman died from substandard care in an abortion clinic or 10 cases where a baby survived an abortion but lives with a handicap from damage inflicted in him by the abortionist or 10 cases where an abortion clinic broke the law and sent a young girl back to a pedophile after her abortion?
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Anlir, since I posted this in the middle of the night on yesterday’s Whirled Views, there’s a good chance you haven’t seen it, so I’ll copy it here.
So, Anlir, next time a man is guilty of murdering 60,000 unborn babies, many of them viable outside the womb, the Christian community must not mention the fact, lest someone kill the man and the Christian community be shown to be the guilty ones (not the blood-drenched abortionist, not the one who kills him–neither one is as guilty as the Christians who dared call the abortionist guilty of murder). Understood, I think. But we do indeed live in a different moral universe, if you think such wickedness can simply be ignored. Christians simply don’t ignore such atrocities. Aren’t you glad Christians were willing to speak up and act to protect Jews during the (government-approved) Holocaust?
Do you really want to live in a world without Christians to speak up for the innocent? I know it makes you uncomfortable to think of Christians who have unwavering convictions–recently you’ve shown increasing rage over the idea. But Christian morality is the best protection any nation can have against tyrants, whether you like all aspects of our moral choices or not. (They’re really not our moral choices at all, of course–they were given to us. We can take neither credit nor blame for them.)
Oh Anlir, if you only had eyes to see! I pray that God will open them. Christians are not your enemies. And in this life, God is not your enemy either. His own Son was killed for those who would be His enemies, calling them friends instead. The hate you see is a boomerang returning to you; it is not coming from us. In spite of your anger toward us and our gracious God, people on this blog love you and care for you, and we will continue to do so as long as you’re here. Where we’ve spoken out of other attitudes than love, forgive us–but in spite of your rage, we love you, and we long for you to know our God and His great mercy.
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Anlir’s hypocrisy is showing. He’s only interested in putting a gag on the Christian/conservative/republican/right leaning side of the argument while engaging in the same kind of inflamatory rhetoric himself.
Anlir says language matters, and rather than using the terminology the pro-life side uses to describe themselves, he uses the term inflamatory term “anti-choice.”
Here are some quote from our dear Anlir cut and pasted right out of WMB:
Fear mongering Rhetoric:
“The scariest thing for many of us is that if Obama wins, the conservative Christians, who have become quite radicalized, will resort to violence. We’ll have our own Christian Taliban in America.”
Yes, Ive been reading news reports about radical conservative Christians who have taken to the streets to violently overthrow President Obama. :sarcasm off:
And note that it was not the Christians or the Conservatives or the Republicans resorting to violence when Prop 8 was not defeated.
“You tear at the bonds of our democracy. It serves no purpose other than to further the division and encourages people to fight rather than find ways to cooperate. It’s very selfish, because it puts your party above the good of the nation as a whole.”
Yes, Anlir would like to tear at the first ammendment. And who’s being selfish here?
“Take a lesson from someone who spent 8 long years in the political minority: you don’t win by tearing people down. You win by reaching out and finding common ground with people who will not agree with you on everything.”
Way to reach out to those who disagree with you, Anlir. And you have never ever here on WMB torn anyone or any group of people down, have you?
And, BTW, Anlir – just because something in legal does not make it morally right. The two are not always the same thing.
Anlir – I think you have a credibility problem.
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I would call Dr. Tiller a murderer. People who still want to insist that the being in the womb, especially in the third trimester is not human, simply amaze me. They are like flat-earth people. People who think that all those woman needed those fetuses killed because of health reasons amaze me also. Some of those babies were in the womb longer than my grandchild, if not two of them. Yet they had no right to be born.
And then to hear the man baptized them! I’m so glad I left that particular denomination when I saw the handwriting on the wall. I do know many wonderful people still in it. I pray they will wake up from their slumber.
I also have been on protests and marches for life. Never have I hollared, “killer’, to anyone. I don’t think of every pro-choice person as a killer. They are rather aiders and abetters. Some know better and many are ignorant.
And yes, when my brother returned from seeing Auschwitz and asked how people could be silent, my mind immediately turned to my own country, which had allowed more than 50,000,000 to be killed in the womb.
I have no problem with doctors who really need to remove a baby from the womb to save the mother’s life. That has never been an issue in reality. I also do not believe in playing judge and jury or in harming anyone. In our country we have the privilege to work for change. There are many who would like to keep that privilege to themselves and their pet causes. They are the ones who will cease on this particular murder and try to stifle legitimate speech.
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A couple of things are painfully clear:
1. Nothing good can come out of a discussion about abortion on Worldmag. The issue is too “charged” to be discussed rationally, and the sides are abosolutely irreconcilable.
2. There is no civil dialogue possible on here regarding the issue of abortion between the two sides. Both sides speak a different language and there is no way to bridge the gap.
3. Taking the pro-choice side on Worldmag earns you a special emnity, unlike none other on here. I’m probably one of the most despised people on here right now because of my pro-choice stance.
Be it therefore resolved that, having stated my principles in #35, I will not endeavor to discuss the issue of abortion any further.
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Is the arson at this topless coffee shop more right wing vigilantism? I bet it was burned down by some right winger imposing his morality.
A murder and an arson, and it’s only Wednesday.
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Anlir, I don’t dispise you and I doubt if the others do either.
RPN, where are all the links to the pro-life groups that you spoke of the other day? I see there seems to be more to the lone gunman in the recruiting murder. I haven’t seen the links in the abortion case.
BTW, I am personally a little sick and tired of you coming here and imposing your morality on us.
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Links to pro-life groups? Not sure what you mean.
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Sorry, KI. I was thinking you meant links like clicky links that take you to websites. Roeder has been linked to Operation Rescue. Aren’t they an anti-abortion group?
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KI-
Were you aware that Operation Rescue’s Senior Policy Adviser has a criminal record, and has served jail time, for conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic? No great surprise, is it?
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DEVIL’S ADVOCATE ALERT
Ok. I’ll bite. As I said the other day on the Tiller thread, TWO WRONGS DON’T MAKE A RIGHT.
Hello, my name is Kim and I used to be Pro-Choice. Yep. You heard it here first. Kim was Pro-Choice. Who was I to sit in judgement of what someone else did with their own body. Yes, it was probably a sin but see we Episcopalians prefer to let the individual work it out with God their personal sins and such. I personally wasn’t planning on ever having an abortion, but really, who was I to tell …OK let’s go waayyy waayyy out on a limb here, say CherylD that she couldn’t have one. She is a single woman who is quite active in her church, wouldn’t it just be the most embarrassing thing in the world if she were to pop up preggers with no husband in sight? Heck, she could go have the procedure done and none of us would ever be the wiser.
Who was I to sit in judgement of the woman who was in an abusive relationship and was trying to get out when she discovered she was pregnant? If it is hard for her to get out alive, what will it be like if she brings a child into the situation?
Who was I to sit in judgement over anyone. I mean if the woman is going to do drugs, not want the child, raise it with all sorts of problems and beat the hell out of it on a daily basis, isn’t it better that she abort it now? I mean, what is worse kill it before it has ever really lived or wait for it to get here and torture and kill it?
Truly, these were things that were between the individual and God. Not any of my business.
WHAT CHANGED MY MIND?
1. Watching a friend of mine who had had an abortion in college struggle with infertility. Somewhere my mind thought, hmmm I wonder if God is punishing her for killing the other one, I am happy to report that today she is active in her church and is the proud mother of two children.
2. Talking to another friend who had had an abortion in high school and was tortured every day by that decision. She and her husband are now missionaries.
3. Being 18 weeks pregnant and having an amniocentesis. I watched the sonogram screen as the LOONNNG needle entered the placenta to take the fluid and test it. I also watched the “fetus” take her little hands and bat the needle away from her. I thought then and there…I don’t care if you have Down’s, are severely retarded and have three heads. If you are going to fight that hard so am I.
4. Most recently I had a BAD alcoholic enter my life. She picks up her one year chip from AA this coming Friday. Part of what she traces her alcoholism to is the abortion she had when she was 16. (The other part was the narcissistic personality she had an affair with that ended her marriage)
So, yeah, I have been on the Pro-choice side. You can’t judge me. I will end by saying, “It’s a baby, not a choice”
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Funniest thing I’ve seen all day. Nothing offense, just funny. Ladies and gents I give you the new 2012 Pelosi GTxi SS/RT Sport Edition from the new GM(Govt. Motors).
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/03/video-congressional-motors-and-its-one-model/
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Poser.
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RPN at 85,
Are you aware that President Obama’s Political Adviser and friend Bill Ayers was involved with, and actually carried out, the bombing of police stations? No great surprise, is it?
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So you are saying Operation Rescue is a terrorist org?
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Give people reasons not to perform abortions. Win-win solution.
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So are you saying Obama is a terrorist because he associates with known terrorists, and got his start at the home of one?
This is fun! Pointless, but fun!
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In re: 80
Fine, go away…
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All babies are narcissistic personalities. Just as a child can usually be toilet trained around the age of two, though some take longer, children should outgrow their narcissism by the age of five or so, though in some cases it will take longer. In my case, I am still working on it at the age of 65.
However, if no one ever took the trouble to toilet train a child, it would take him or her a long time how to figure out 1) they would need find an appropriate place to of their bodily excretions and 2) to actually locate (or maybe even invent) such an appropriate place.
That’s me, at the age of 65. Still working on toilet training myself. Don’t tell anybody else at worldmagblog about this problem. Let’s just keep it between you and me.
So to speak.
If you laughed at this comment, you either need to pray a lot or to consult a mental health professional.
Brought to you by Narcissists for Empathic and Responsible Behavior (NERB).
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#46 Kim
Groucho Marx’s toy duck just descended from the ceiling and announced you are another secret word sinner.
I meant to type “winner” but Christians here might like my dyslexic typographic error better. Only God can measure your mileage accurately, but he is keeping it close to his vest.
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Random!!! What more can we do? I know plenty of people who would love or would have loved to adopt and we (the govt) made it too difficult. One lady I know would have made a wonderful mother but she was disqualified from going through the state because she had a relative who worked for that arm of the govt and it would have looked like favoritism.
A LOT and I don’t have actual percentages here of the little girls in my town are from China. I think ever year my daughter has had a little girl of Chinese descent in her classroom. Some famililies in town have gone two or three times and brought their daughters home.
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Re: #93
I’m not going anywhere Thorn. I’m just not discussing the “A” topic. Sorry to disappoint you.
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AJ- 89
Since Sunday the anti-abortion crowd has decided the actions of an individual may not be associated with anyone else.
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Once again, I will engage in redundant rhetoric, just like a few of our resident liberals (albeit mine is shorter rhetoric), in the case that anyone has yet to read it.
Here is an interesting essay about free speech…
http://www.dontdenythetruth.com/dload.php?file=Sinner_Essay.pdf
Get it here if you like:
http://www.dontdenythetruth.com/main.php
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In re 97:
Your still talking.
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And I thought SWMBO stood for Supreme World Messiah Barack Obama…
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Scott Roeder’s wearing orange this season too.
Police have not disclosed a possible motive in Tiller’s killing. But associates have told CNN that Roeder was a regular among the anti-abortion protesters who routinely gathered at Tiller’s Wichita clinic, Women’s Health Care Services.
And records and interviews with family and fellow abortion protesters suggest Roeder had a fanatical preoccupation with abortion and used Christianity to support his beliefs.
In 1996, he was arrested in Topeka, Kansas, with explosives, a military rifle, ammunition and a gas mask in his car, according to records.
His ex-wife said that at that time he intended to blow up an abortion clinic.
He became known as a regular at protests outside abortion clinics, say those who rallied alongside him. Anti-abortion activists Anthony Leake and Regina Dinwiddie told CNN that Tiller had strong beliefs.
“He was a confessing Christian,” Leake continued. “He always had his Bible, which wasn’t uncommon. He professed faith in Jesus Christ.”
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Oh happy day!
New Hampshire’s legislature just passed the compromise marriage equality bill and the governor has said he will sign it.
Today, June 3, 2009 for gay people in America:
6 “free” states
44 “slave” states
The long march toward liberty and justice for all continues!
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Congratulations, Anlir!
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“I’m probably one of the most despised people on here right now because of my pro-choice stance.”
Um… NO. It’s because you engage in the hateful rhetoric you accuse us of….
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Maybe the rest of them can move to New Hampshire -
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“Give people reasons not to perform abortions. Win-win solution”
Great idea Random!
Unfortunately we’ve already beat you to it. Christians do this in many different ways already.
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From the article I read Anlir, the bill seems to only make marriage relative. They did nothing to define it, like California. In other words, each church or entity can call it whatever the heck they want.
In other words, it doesnt seem you gained much of anything here, as it provides opt outs for everything, and has the pride to say religions can control their ceremonies as they see fit…
Did you really achieve your “equality and liberty” when no one gives a flip whether you call it marriage or gayrriage or civil unions….
Kinda redundant since New Hampshire shouldnt have any control over religion in the first place though.
BTW, Tiller is a mass murderer and gays beat up old women…
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#98, RPN wrote; “Since Sunday the anti-abortion crowd has decided the actions of an individual may not be associated with anyone else.”
Nonsense. Since fair-minded thinking was invented, RPN, pro-life supporters have thought that the actions of an individual should not necessarily be associated or attached to others who did not take part in those actions (and who also condemn those actions clearly in the Tiller killing case). It’s just common decency and honesty, RPN. Are you suggesting the pro-abortion side does not think that way and DOES think that non-perpetrators should be blamed for actions of others over which they had no control? I hope not.
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Re: #108
It provides for civil marriage for gay people, which is all we are asking for. Under the law in New Hampshire, gay people will be able to get civilly married, and churches will be free to marry or not marry whomever they want. It’s a win all the way around.
Oh happy day!
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A 23 year old United States of America Army soldier was brutally murdered on U.S. soil just a couple days ago by a Muslim convert who targeted him and another soldier, and I have not heard a statement by President Barack Hussein Obama expressing concern over this (perhaps he has, I don’t know). But he did express his shock and outrage (rightly) over the Tiller killing and his Atty. Gen dispatched federal protection for abortion industry centers.
Let me know if the President has uttered anything of concern over a U.S. army soldier on duty being cut down murderously (and on the one seriously injured) by a terrorist on U.S. soil.
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I especially enjoyed posts 78 and 79.
I met a woman today who is in recruiting. She told me there are now 4 people for every job opening. This will not be goingaway any time soon.
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Soldier William Long should be honorably remembered for his service and his sacrifice. He was the victim of a cowardly attack by a vicious and hateful piece of scum who blamed Long for things he never did, simply because Long wore a uniform that the murderer had been taught to hate with a murderous passion.
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Thanks for your story, Kim. I found it interesting. I started out pro-choice too, until I got educated on the issue.
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While I found #78, #79, and #80 all very well written arguments/views, I found this one to be the most entertaining:
“Right, everyone. We should all look to Anlir as our example for how to carry on a peaceful, reasoned discussion.”
Your reputation precedes you Anlir. Why should anyone listen to you now that you call for reasonable discussion? Especially in light of your unreasonableness, in the face of reasonable discussion, pertinent points, and good questions. Instead you just refuse to talk about it now.
That’s as good an argument as you’ve ever had….
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If Roeder is a confessing Christian, he seems to have missed the point.
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NJL – He sure did.
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Thanks KI. I recently had a conversation with a woman who is about 10-12 years or more older than me. Her view on the who things was of women in college going to back alley abortionist and all of her friends praying she would live. I think in today’s society is would be much more acceptable to have and keep or have and give up the baby. There are so many loving homes out there.
I personally am not in a position to take a baby, but it isn’t that the one I have doesn’t beg. She wants a baby brother. I explain and explain that without a daddy in the picture it really isn’t possible and I also explain that at her age by the time he was old enough to be any fun she would be away at college and here I would be with a baby boy who would love and adore me and not her.
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Joel-
What I find most glaring is both the killers were religious extremists. One Muslim, one Christian. Rational moderates of both faiths rightly distance themselves from the violent acts carried out by their faith’s extremists, saying they do not properly practice tenets of the religion.
Early this morning there was an arson set at a topless coffee shop in Maine. It will be interesting to learn whether the perpetrator had obsessively held religious beliefs that led him/her to this act of violent extremism, endangering many lives, and costing many people their jobs in a bad economy.
How do we stop religious extremism?
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When I started to read #113, at first I thought another silly piece of tripe by Joel Mark, and then I saw that Joel is supporting a point I often make.
My way of putting it is that people may not have “free will.” I also say, if I had control of raiding a couple hundred of children from infancy, I could turn most of them into sociopaths or decent people as adults.
Joel’s way of putting it is … the murderer had been taught to hate with a murderous passion.
Exactly. Muslim terrorists are made more than they are born.
I was in contact with quite a few Muslims in the last few years of my job. None of them ever gave any indication that they intended to kill me, though if they hated me for being American, or for having Jewish ancestors, how would I have known.
This is not to defend Islam–I think all religion is mostly nonsense–but to argue that most people turn out as they are shaped by their genetics and environment.
Even though I agree with a statement Joel made, I don’t think he understands the implication of what he said. I suspect from reading his comment that a)Joel Mark may be as dumb as a post and b) his congregation doesn’t give him enough to do. Perhaps they want as much separation from him as they can get. However, that doesn’t make sense either. It’s a free country. Most of us can change churches, or not go to one at all, as we please.
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I have just been informed by “Barrister Jerry Falwell” that I have won 3 million dollars in Africa. I’m too busy to collect my winnings, but if anyone here could use a little spending money let me know and I’ll pass the winning ticket on to you. you’ll just need to email him at jerryfalwell57@gmail.com
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#96
Kim, I don’t know. I don’t claim to have a solution to the issue of abortion.
I don’t understand Christian thinking. I don’t think people have souls. I don’t murder people (though I have thought about it at times) because I would not like to have someone kill me or someone I love. This is called empathy, a word that has become the latest curse word for many conservatives.
You would not murder people because God tells you not to. This is a common ground for different reasons. I would not feel afraid around you, though I might of a few people around here.
I am much more bothered by murder of living post-born humans than I am of pre-born humans, but I consider abortion a “slippery slope.” I live near a steep slope and we sometimes get snow and ice on it. I drive very slowly and carefully in those situations. Sometimes I stay home instead of driving.
When my wife became unexpectedly and unintentionally pregnant on our honeymoon, we did not abort. My daughter (and her partner and her partner’s five year old daughter created by artificial insemination) are coming over Sunday. I see nothing to regret in our decision.
On the other hand, I don’t know why so many babies die of miscarriages or if you really hate abortion you are not at the very least boycotting every Chinese item.
And they call me “incoherent.”
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The governor of New Hampshire has officially signed the marriage equality bill. The law becomes effective on January 1st.
I thank the legislature and governor for doing the right thing and upholding the legal and fundamental rights of all it’s citizens.
Liberty and justice for all!
Oh happy day!
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Joel Mark: Nonsense. Since fair-minded thinking was invented, RPN, pro-life supporters have thought that the actions of an individual should not necessarily be associated or attached to others who did not take part in those actions
Then explain the constant harping on Obama’s associations with William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright. Back then, you were all assuring us that there was no possible way Obama could have attended Wright’s church for years without absorbing his beliefs … and that his loose connection to Ayers long years after Ayers had left his radical days behind him was still bad, in some vague way you all could never really explain.
Sounds like you DO believe an individual should be judged based on the beliefs of people he interacts with … unless it’s an individual you want to distance yourself from.
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Joel Mark: I have not heard a statement by President Barack Hussein Obama expressing concern over this (perhaps he has, I don’t know)
He has.
I am deeply saddened by this senseless act of violence against two brave young soldiers who were doing their part to strengthen our armed forces and keep our country safe. I would like to wish Quinton Ezeagwula a speedy recovery, and to offer my condolences and prayers to William Long’s family as they mourn the loss of their son.
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Speaking of quality thinking, here is the latest “moral” pronouncement of “Carlos the Jackal.
http://tiny.cc/jackal133
As Victoria the Bold (more narcissistic and incoherent than even I) would say,
“Why not?”
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#118, RPN wrote; “How do we stop religious extremism?”
First find a way to stop secular and atheist extremism, which has been far far nore bloody and murderous than religious extremeists throughout the last century (Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler — who hated Christians and leaned pagan –, Pol Pot, and many nore atheists and secularist mass genocidal nurderers). Even Saddam was, in practical reality, nore of a secular tyrant than a Muslim one (his Islam was apparently opportunistic).
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#119, Random, you are free to read my posts, but I would prefer you didn’t. You never seem to have the slightest idea of what I am trying to say. Could be my communication skills, but I’m not so sure.
I saw my name in your post (used in vain, in my view, as usual), so I read it, which is very atypical for me. I also often havn’t a clear idea of what you are trying to say either, so, hey, we’re even.
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#123, SteveG asked, “Then explain the constant harping on Obama’s associations with William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright.”
SteveG, it’s simple. Obama is NOT responsible for the actions of those men. Is that clear enough? However, he may well be responsible for his own knowing choice to associate so closely with them (for two decades he regarded Jeremiah Wright as a “memtor”).
I think Obama probably did absorb and identify with Jeremiah Wright’s beliefs, but that does not mean that Obama is responsible for Jeremiah Wright’s actions. I never said he was.
SteveG, you are trying to mix apples and oranges. These murders that all of us condemn are actions and no one should be condemned for those actions except the actors themselves. Other guilty parties in some cases might be any who may have actively conspired, planned and orchestrated (not beliefs, but) criminal actions.
There is such a thing as evil influence and I also condemn any who would teach the hateful killing of abortion doctors as much as I condemn those who would teach the hateful murder of soldiers at a recruiting station.
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SteveG, thanks for the link and I commend President Obama for recognizing the tragedy of the soldier too. As i said, I just hadn’t heard it yet. Thanks again.
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The way to stop religious extremism is for those who aren’t to speak up loudly and resist religious tyranny. We’ve seen down through history what religious extremism leads to, and it’s important to keep reminding people of that. All religions have their extremists. The trick is to keep them from getting the upper hand in a religion, a society, or a country. Given that Americans are for the most part practical and moderate, I have hope that we will always keep our extremists at bay.
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The Bible ordains that governing authorities wield the sword against evil-doers (Romans 13). Thus, it is not the role of the church or Christians to weild that sword in the name of faith or for their notion of justice. God gave that role to governing authorities and we cannot take it on ourselves to usurp that role, even if we don’t think the governing authorities are doing it right or enough. So it’s wrong and unbiblical for anyone who claims to be a Christian to willfully murder an abortion doctor or anyone they think is an evil-doer. It was God who ordained that role for the state, like it or not. But we can work hard to lawfully seek justice or progress through (or in spite of) the state and its policies as best we can without usurping it’s God-ordained role of punishing evil-doers.
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#102
Tiller had strong beliefs.
“He was a confessing Christian,” Leake continued. “He always had his Bible, which wasn’t uncommon. He professed faith in Jesus Christ.”
RPN,
To “profess” faith is one thing but to “possess” faith is something else entirely. A majority of American claim to be Christians but the sin in our country makes it hard to take that seriously.
The center of the Christian life is love for Christ and obedience. Jesus says, “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15). Belief and obedience go hand-in-hand. And because Jesus is God, His commandments are found Genesis through Revelation (not just the red-letter verses, folks).
You strike me an an intelligent person, RPN, shrewd in your observations. Do you really believe Tiller possessed saving faith just because he owned a Bible, went to church and claimed to be a Christian when day-in and day-out he dismembered the bodies of unborn babies as his life’s work?
I stated clearly yesterday that God was not glorified by Tiller’s death. But neither was God glorified by his life.
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Victoria,
Here’s my reply to your post on the Prop. 8 thread.
Rio, I re-read your bio, very intersting – I too like great cars (yep I bet the blog is surpised) – on to more important matters. Do you believe the Bible to be the inerrant inspired Word of God? You might have answered this question on another post which I might have missed. I do believe it is the inerrant inspired Word of God.
So that I don’t have to go back and read all the posts – could you tell me how you believe regarding Creation?
I believe the Bible is inspired, without error.
Thanks Rio.
What?!? Nice cars are extremely important!
You’re welcome.
About my views regarding creation:
1) I believe in a literal six-day (24-hour days) creation,
2) I believe God created various animals and people as they are without the use of evolution.
Of course, there has been change in species over time, such as different kinds of dogs, from German Shepherds to Golden Retrievers, and the human race now has man different races descended from Adam and Eve (note, they weren’t Adam and Steve)
3) I believe God did everything right, and what he had made was indeed “very good.” However, we were made in the image of God (how can we be made in the image of God if we descended from a common ancestor with the apes? they’re made in the image of God too?), and we have free will.
Without prolonging it, those are my views on Creation.
I hope this was what you were looking for.
So, regarding creation, I guess you can call me a conservative Christian. I still am wary of labels, though…
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Anlir never answered my question about equal rights, as far as I can tell…
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#102 and #132: I think that quote pertains to Roeder, not Tiller, and the writer just mistakenly typed in the wrong name there. In every other reference, Leake and Dinwiddie are talking about Roeder, whom they knew, not Tiller, and I doubt that, being sympathetic to Roeder, they would be crediting Tiller with having faith.
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“How do we stop religious extremism?
Make it against the law to shoot people or set buildings on fire.
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Thanks for the info, STEVE, perhaps you’re right that the wrong name was used in reference to the quote.
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Steve and Deet-
Thanks for pointing that out. I had read right over that several times and never noticed the mistake. In the context of the article, it’s clear they are discussing what people knew and recall about Roeder, and I read it as such even when looking for it. The author must have transposed the names.
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Can anyone explain why the military recruiters shooter is being charged with terrorism, while Dr. Tiller’s shooter is not, so far? It’s an honest question.
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RPN: I will speak up for holding Roeder innocent until proven guilty (though I think the case against him is pretty strong.) Has he been charged with anything yet?
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Steve:
I understand, Steve, as should we all.
From Tuesday’s UPI:
Roeder, 51, was charged with one count of first-degree murder and two counts of aggravated assault in the Sunday slaying of Dr. George Tiller, The Wichita Eagle reported.
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Rio:
I can’t find your questions. Please re-post them and I’ll take a look.
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Rio – 133
Looks like we have the SAME beliefs regarding GOD’s Word – YES those are my views on Creation.
I loved your remark — “What?!? Nice cars are extremely important!
You’re welcome.” —
YEP, I do like cars, and so does my husband.
Rio, I thought we agreed on most Biblical issues, but it appears we agree on most all –
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Why is Victoria up and posting at 1:46 in the morning?
Why am I up and posting at 3:57 in the morning Pacific Time?
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Funniest post I have read so far this morning, but, hey, it’s early.
#127
Best out of context smip.
You never seem to have the slightest idea of what I am trying to say.
Perhaps I do…perhaps it is pure, unadulterated nonsense…
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The way to stop non-religious tyrrany is to speak up loudly and resist that, too. Just sayin’ — considering we have a free exercise clause and all in our Constitution.
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Joel Mark: SteveG, it’s simple. Obama is NOT responsible for the actions of those men. Is that clear enough? However, he may well be responsible for his own knowing choice to associate so closely with them (for two decades he regarded Jeremiah Wright as a “memtor”).
I think Obama probably did absorb and identify with Jeremiah Wright’s beliefs, but that does not mean that Obama is responsible for Jeremiah Wright’s actions. I never said he was.
That’s not quite what I meant. All through the campaign, I kept hearing comments along the lines of, “There’s no way he attended that church and didn’t get influenced by those ideas.”
Not that Obama’s responsible for Wright, but rather, the other way around … that Obama must have been influenced by Wright. As you said yourself again in this post.
And yet you want us to believe that Roeder spent years hearing about how abortion providers are genocidal Holocaust perpetrators, but that couldn’t possibly have anything to do with pushing him over the edge.
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“Can anyone explain why the military recruiters shooter is being charged with terrorism, while Dr. Tiller’s shooter is not, so far? It’s an honest question.”
A pointed, clear, direct shot at one man…is not terrorism.
At most, its assassination. The accused did not shoot anyone else or attempt to blow up anyone else, his attack was not against any sort of nation, but one man.
Was it terrifying? Yes. But would you rather have him charged with first degree murder, where he will actually get a trial under due process…or would you rather have him charged with terrorism and shipped off to our favorite terrorist camp to sit around without trial for years?
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RPN #138,
The main gist of y post #132 applies equally to Roeder as well. This was obviously an angry man, angry at government, angry at the rule of law, angry about abortion, and ultimately, angry at God.
As far as using the word “terrorism” to describe Roeder’s deed, while it’s true, crime does “terrorize” (just ask anyone who has been on the receiving end), I think overuse of the word to categorize every unlawful act or just the ones we find personally egregious would soon render the word meaningless.
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“It provides for civil marriage for gay people, which is all we are asking for. Under the law in New Hampshire, gay people will be able to get civilly married, and churches will be free to marry or not marry whomever they want. It’s a win all the way around.”
It provides for civil unions and has left it up to the ceremonial entities like a church to label it what they want. You call it marriage, but on the same street you may find one church that does and one church that does not and one that calls it sin. Since the state did not define it, its really all smoke and mirrors to make gays feel better while at the same time, accomplishing nothing binding on the state.
But hey, pat yourself on the back.
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“Not that Obama’s responsible for Wright, but rather, the other way around … that Obama must have been influenced by Wright. As you said yourself again in this post.
And yet you want us to believe that Roeder spent years hearing about how abortion providers are genocidal Holocaust perpetrators, but that couldn’t possibly have anything to do with pushing him over the edge.”
Each side always plays the other. As the conservative side consistantly said Obama would be influenced by Wright or Ayers, the liberal side said despite long term associations it has not affected Obama or his character.
Now, its of course the conservative side saying that the anti abortion movement has not influenced this man to such an extent, while the liberal side says it is.
So its all drivel over and over again.
I do think that putting yourself under any group or influence especially for many years can rub off on you at least. It rose flags about Obama for me personally, but at the same time, I’ve never seen Obama approve or act in a similiar way as an Ayers or Wright.
However, the comparison here is really that Roeder is not influenced like Obama may be, but that Roeder is an extremist like an Ayers or Wright. He is a guy that would be influencing others, and not vice versa. He has an obvious screw loose, and his own beliefs are what pushed him over the edge, not anyone elses coercion or influence.
What little we know of Roeder it seems he’s always held this view, rightly or wrongly. There is no long term established link to any other pro life organizations, only his subscription to a newsletter that already agrees with his views.
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Thorn,
You’re wrong about New Hampshire. The new law did exactly the opposite of what you’re claiming.
The bill the governor signed provides for civil marriage, and converts all existing civil unions to civil marriages. The marriage law takes effect on 1/1/10. Civil unions will no longer exist under the legislation the governor signed.
The application form will allow you to choose either “bride and groom” or “spouse”. But the certificate/license will be identical and will have the word “marriage” on it.
You can call it whatever you want, but under the law it’s a marriage. And the law is what really matters.
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From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31090983/
“The revised bill added a sentence specifying that all religious organizations, associations or societies have exclusive control over their religious doctrines, policies, teachings and beliefs on marriage.
It also clarified that church-related organizations that serve charitable or educational purposes are exempt from having to provide insurance and other benefits to same-sex spouses of employees.”
My apologies though, the first few articles i found on the subject yesterday never stated “civil marriages”, and you provided no links. They only discussed the loopholes like above.
But considering civil unions have been legal for the the past 2 years, and the people who have an issue with it, are still not required to recognize it as “marriage”, youve gained nothing.
“You can call it whatever you want, but under the law it’s a marriage. And the law is what really matters.”
In New Hampshire, yes. In California, marriage is defined differently. Glad you agree that the law should be what matters.
If this is the case you should have no qualms against California as it has been defined by law.
I have no qualms with NH, since it was a legislature passage. I dont agree with NH, but I dont have to live there either.
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Well, gee, Thorn, you didn’t get a response on this:
“Glad you agree that the law should be what matters.
If this is the case you should have no qualms against California as it has been defined by law.”
I wonder why.
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