Frank Schaeffer’s culpability, and ours
The logic goes like this: If you call abortion murder you are now an accomplice to homicide. This is because, according to Francis Schaeffer’s renegade son Frank, the logical conclusion of such talk is violence against abortionists like George Tiller. Here rests the case of the pro-abortion movement in all its irrational glory. It’s not killing to puncture the base of an infant’s skull in order to suck out his brains, but calling such an act murder is malicious and irresponsible.
The non-Christian can be forgiven for acceding to Schaeffer’s rhetorical sleight of hand, even if Schaeffer himself ought to know better. The beautiful scandal of the Christian faith is precisely that it rejects what is logical to men like Schaeffer. Christian churches taught from the earliest days that abortion is a vile thing, yet they also taught that we are to love our wicked neighbor, and that to murder him is a terrible sin. While believing that abortion is murder logically leads, in Schaeffer’s worldview, to violence, in the proper Christian worldview it leads to grieving, and prayer, and love for victims and perpetrators alike. In fact, the very revelation that drives the Christian to speak out against abortion—that all humans are created in the image of a loving God—is what compels him to resist unlawful violence against even a blood-soaked killer.
This has always been the teaching of the Church, that there are narrow allowances for the taking of life, and that even a lawful killing must be mourned. The man who brutally murdered George Tiller was either poorly taught by the churches he attended or inadequately vigilant against wicked-mindedness, or both. Anyone in the vicinity of Christian teaching ought to learn first and foremost that God is love, and that the chief calling of the Christian is likewise to love and forgive as he is loved and forgiven. Insofar as any of us fails to live this out so that others come to know it, all of us are culpable not only in Tiller’s death, but also in all the sin of this world. It’s the reason we ought to have perpetually penitent hearts and never hold ourselves above others. In that sense I suppose Schaeffer doesn’t go far enough.
Schaeffer, however, purports in his essay to apologize for his part in teaching that violence to stop abortion is a proper Christian response. There seems—to me, at least—to be less penitence in his words, than yet another round of score-settling with his long list of enemies, tinged with a not so subtle effort to sell his books.
But the world is what it is, and perhaps it’s too much to expect Frankie Schaeffer to finally grow up and stop trading on his father’s name to make a buck. We can congratulate him, at least, on acknowledging that insofar as he advocated violence to stop abortion, he is indeed culpable in George Tiller’s murder. But we can also tell him—those of us who hew to the proper Christian teaching on this subject—to speak for himself. This is especially the case now that he advocates in favor of abortion rights while still claiming allegiance to the Christian Church. Most Christians I know believe that poisoning or dismembering an infant in the womb is a sin, just as we believe that unlawful violence is a sin. It’s a shame that Schaeffer has set aside one wicked belief only to embrace another.














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back to top98 Comments to “Frank Schaeffer’s culpability, and ours”
Good post,TONY.
Frankie Schaeffer rightly points out that violence in response to abortion is wrong, but fails to mention the violence of abortion itself and why it is wrong.
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Well said.
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As a person who personally has read all of the books that Frankie Schaeffer is talking about, I think he is a little irrational. What Francis Schaeffer spoke about is truth. The progression he talked about is true. He spoke about the straying of truth being like a snowflake that divides on the Alps, half going one way and half another. A little bit of error seems so unimportant, but like that divided snowflake each half of which ends up thousands of miles apart in totally different oceans, a little error can lead to great error down the road. We have seen that truth in the years since Francis Schaeffer spoke.
We have seen the progression so that individual life is becoming less and less important. On what basis should abortion be restricted? Because older fetuses look more human and therefore, we would not have people emotionally upset?
None of these books or movies or people made this man commit murder. Thousands of us have read them and seen the movie. We are not murdering. How interesting that the same people who will not acknowledge that all the garbage games, movies, books etc. that glorify violence and sex effect those who watch them, yet will believe this tripe from Frankie Schaeffer?
If more people saw the error and embraced truth in all of life, not just as a Sunday morning event, we would not be in the handbasket we are in, in this country.
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“The man who brutally murdered George Tiller was either poorly taught by the churches he attended or inadequately vigilant against wicked-mindedness, or both.”
the church is not that powerful. I wonder what the man’s home life was life growing up? What relational patterns were happening?
None of us can say all that needs to be said on any issue.
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” . . . and perhaps it’s too much to expect Frankie Schaeffer to finally grow up and stop trading on his father’s name to make a buck.”
That’s it right there Tony. Frank rants. He is not the intellect his father was, though he tries pretend. He never would have sold a book without his given name. He seems stuck in adolescent rebellion. If dad said it I’m going to argue the opposite no matter how illogical I sound. I pity his stuckness. And I also can’t believe any still reads him.
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to say that he was poorly taught by the church rather than his home is like saying that we have nutritional deficeincies because we eat in restaurants with poor food. If we eat at home most of the time, then we are what we eat at home.
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aios, Adios, I read Frank. I pay attention when someone talks about beating a wife, relationship boundary issues, educational neglect, and over emphasising organized religion, there are a whole lot of themes here that tend to go together for some reason, and not just in this family.
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I liken Schaeffer to the now forgotten eldest son of John Lennon who briefly cashed-in on his father’s legacy (that is until folks realized Julian just couldnt sing!)
We in the church have failed all those women who trod sadly into the abortion mill. Instead of preaching about murderous infanticide we should have all along (even before Roe) been proclaiming that women truly deserve better than abortion. Is this the best society can offer you if you carry an un-expected/unwanted child? Women deserve so much more than a sterile procedure room in a so-called clinic (and one oddly exempt from the regs governing hospitals or other medical/dental offices).
Bullhorns outside clinics, graphic posters of dismembered children or prayer vigils wherein we ask that a proLifer makes it to the court to tip and overturn Roe are strategies which havent worked. Operation Ultrasound has much promise. Bigger commitmt to unwed mother’s homes and ministries to their residents might be the chance for the churches to render Roe to be irrelevant. But all of that requires money. Money not spent on expanding the youth building or refurbishing the sanctuary or paying for elderly package tours to the Holy Land. Can we do such a loving sacrifice?
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Tony,
In all seriousness, not playing devil’s advocate, this is an issue that troubles me deeply.
First of all, you (and most of the Christian Right) inconsistently apply your logic. You say that “While believing that abortion is murder logically leads, in Schaeffer’s worldview, to violence, in the proper Christian worldview it leads to grieving, and prayer, and love for victims and perpetrators alike.” So you seem to believe that the Christian’s proper response to a murderer running rampant is to grieve and pray for him and his victims, but explicitly not to take violent action against him.
And yet how many on this site did and still to this day rejoice in our attacking Iraq to kill wicked men, exult in the execution of Saddam Hussein, hope that we catch and kill Osama bin Laden?
That’s different, you probably say. That’s war and capital punishment. Then you must amend your proposition: the Christian’s proper response to a murderer running rampant is to grieve and pray, but not to employ violence, unless violence is sanctioned by the State. This seems to me a very strange position for the Christian to be in: part-time pacifism. God calls me to peace and prayer… until Uncle Sam says otherwise.
But even with that qualifier, I don’t think most of the Christian Right believes that the Christian’s proper response to a murderer running rampant is to grieve and pray, but not to employ violence, unless violence is sanctioned by the State. I think most of us would agree with Schaeffer’s assumed premise: Even when the State refuses to act, moral men have an obligation to use violence against the wicked in defense of the innocent.
In other words, would you commit unsanctioned or even illegal violence to save innocent lives? To my mind, there are only two honorable Christian responses to this question. (1) Yes, in certain cases. (2) I am a pacifist, so though I would sacrifice my own life in defense of the innocent, I would not take or condone the taking of another life. The response mainline Christianity has settled on — (3) No, I’ll only commit violence if the State says it’s OK (and then I’ll cheer it on with nationalistic gusto) — seems to me craven and servile.
So as far as I can see, Franky Schaeffer is right, if you grant his assumed premise (which, again, is this: (A) Even when the State refuses to act, moral men have an obligation to use violence against the wicked in defense of the innocent).
Add to that the premise that Schaeffer says causes all this trouble so we should not accept it: (B) George Tiller was a mass murderer.
And you arrive with the force of logical necessity at this conclusion: Even when the State refuses to act, moral men have an obligation to use violence against George Tiller in defense of the innocent.
Now prove me wrong. Please do, because I cannot condone that conclusion, but I can’t bring myself to disagree with either premise A or premise B.
And just as a postscript, it frankly baffles me to see the Christian Right trip over itself unequivocally condemning the slaying of one murderer, but shrug at the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian deaths in Iraq as “just the price of doing business.”
I realize this post probably makes me look very bad, so I should say that I’m finding pacifism more and more an attractive philosophy. I would still allow for a very few exceptions, but by and large I’m thinking the Christian’s response should be to abhor violence of all kinds, individual or State. As it is, I can’t see how what the guy who killed Tiller did is much different than what any loyal American soldier does every day in Iraq or Afghanistan.
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It is too bad that some see only from afar and in theory when thinking of Frank.
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On the other hand, one can be properly taught, at home & at church, & still choose to do the wrong thing.
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While I don’t agree with everything that Frankie said, Tony’s article is no less reckless.
First, I give you credit for implicitly acknowledging that Protestants have not historically recognized abortion as murder. We may have considered it to be a “vile thing,” as you say, but we have acknowledged that there are severe problems with having a legal definition of murder that extends too far before birth. After all, the murder-from-conception argument would require us to investigate every miscarriage as a potential homicide and to ban birth control pills (which function as an abortificant some portion of the time).
The only value of the abortion-as-murder argument to the so-called pro-life movement is rhetorical. In the culture wars, we can feel more comfortable hating our neighbors if we can suppose that they are the kind of people who condone the slaughter of innocent people. The abortion-as-murder had no progeny in Protestant circles before the rise of the culture wars. Those of us who live outside of the evangelical echo-chamber recognize the coincidence. The main reason for the rise of the culture wars — the end of white evangelicals’ cultural dominance — had certain PR shortcomings. Abortion came to the rescue! It allowed us to feel justified for retreating from the culture into the bubble of the evangelical ghetto. We could now see ourselves as would-be abolitionists, instead of as a bunch of spoiled, whiny, white people who are unhappy because our “privilege passes” expired.
Further, you miss the point that Dr. Tiller provided services to many women who faced possible death from a problem pregnancy. I recognize that this was not the exclusive focus of his practice. Nevertheless, I am not ready to see a wife and mother die while giving birth to a severely deformed, stillborn fetus. Therefore, there is an appropriate place for some aspect of Dr. Tiller’s practice. If you are honest, you must evaluate the man with honest and sober judgment. Tony’s article failed in that respect.
Lastly, your article is unfair to Frankie Schaeffer. His father did, in fact, argue that acts such as Roeder’s are justified. That’s the problem with evangelicals’ abortion rhetoric: None of it is intended to be taken at face value. Paul Hill, after all, was tossed out of Francis Schaeffer’s denomination for expressing views identical to those of Schaeffer. The difference was that Hill intended to act on his words, while Schaeffer did not.
I believe that abortion is vile. I would like to see its practice substantially curtailed in this country. On the other hand, I recognize that criminalizing early-term abortion (and some types of late-term abortion) is legally problematic. Therefore, I long for a pro-life movement that is ready to stray out of the evangelical ghetto and dialogue with others on this issue. Until that happens, it makes me suspicious of evangelicals’ real intentions. It makes me wonder whether evangelicalism has not morphed into a subculture of angry, middle-aged white folks who are still crying over the loss of the cultural privileges they once enjoyed.
Anyway, these are the thoughts of an urban, Coastal (East), professional, 30-something evangelical who goes to a church that is part of Francis Schaeffer’s (not Frankie’s) denomination.
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So this is the logic of the atheists who deny God by the presence of evil. As they imagine god in their own image: destroying the will destroy sin, instead of allowing sin with the understanding that it must be punished. No wonder they conclude such a god is false.
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JJF,
I appreciate your questions and the tone you used in asking them. Myself, I’d choose option one or two. And I agree that Christians are too often too quick to condone or defend whatever the US military does. In recent months I’ve found myself edging toward the Roman Catholic view of issues like just war and the death penalty, partly because the worldview of much of American evangelicalism is incoherent, timid, shallow and faithless.
I’ll be back to elaborate when I’m not so busy.
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Reg – Because of your past experiences, you are sensitive to anything that may indicate abuse in a relationship. That is a good thing, in some ways, but can also lead you to be deceived by another’s manipulation.
My SIL was sexually abused while growing up. She has battled compulsive overeating her whole life. Years ago, in a support group for compulsive overeaters, she learned that many women who were sexually abused as children or teens have this problem. She now sees every overweight woman as a victim of abuse. And if they say they weren’t abused, she figures they have blocked it out.
I’m just relaying this to you to urge you to be careful in whom you believe & trust. And if you already are aware of this, then forgive me for bring it up.
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Would it have been immoral to pull the sniper rifle’s trigger if you had Hitler in the cross hairs of your sniper scope? Why or why not?
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In re 12:
So are you saying that a Tiller is justified, or an abortionist, because its simply too difficult to define abortion??????
It’s very easy to regulate abortion providers. We just like lousy excuses.
I dont think very many pro lifer’s are after prosecuting the mother. I’m not.
I’m not worried about purposeful miscarriages. No point in prosecuting them.
But to get up off your butt, go down to the local clinic, and have somebody carve a child out of your belly is pretty obvious. It’s pretty obvious the abortion provider does it on a consistant basis.
Considering that we do at least have some definition of child/life, we can at least go ahead and move to the end of protecting what everyone for suredly can agree on.
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Thanks, David L. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.
Moore’s Law notwithstanding, Sawgunner asks a pertinent question. I’d appreciate hearing answers to it, or explanations as to why that’s a totally different case.
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Why not? In this, too, you (and many other pro-lifers) are logically inconsistent.
This is from a blog post I wrote when I was wrestling through these questions before the 2008 election:
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Even staunchly pro-life people adopt logically inconsistent “middle ground” stances that are intended to make their views more palatable to the public, but that actually betray their lukewarm belief in the rhetoric they’re using.
Here’s what I mean. The key issue is whether the fetus is a human person. If the fetus is not a human person, but merely a collection of human tissue, then discarding it is of no moral consequence. If the fetus is fully a human person, then it is fully entitled to the basic human right of life.
Fully entitled, regardless or rape, incest, or health of the mother. None of those circumstances, horrible as they are, would justify depriving an innocent person of life. If I need a heart transplant to live, I am not justified in killing you and taking yours. If I am brutally victimized and require a live-in nurse, the fact that I don’t want him there and didn’t ask for my life to be changed this way does not justify my killing him. The immorality of those killings is so self-evident that no one would seriously argue for exceptions to murder laws in those cases.
If the fetus is a human person, then people who kill it are guilty of murder (or, arguably, manslaughter). Impartial justice demands that they be punished accordingly. This means women who seek professional abortions must be punished with the same severity as women who seek professional help to murder their husbands. If we are to be consistent at all, women must be thrown in jail.
If the fetus is a human person, then every citizen has a moral obligation to employ as much lawlessness as your conscience allows in protecting it. If your neighborhood doctor’s office were murdering a dozen toddlers a week, would you be content to sit at home, express your milquetoast sadness on blogs, and vote once every four years for the “pro-toddlers” candidate?
Abortion & Politics: part 1
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(So no one thinks I’m encouraging violence, I should quote the rest of my post):
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My point is this: there is a glaring disconnect between the rhetoric we pro-lifers employ and the way we live.
We do not act like we really believe the fetus is fully human life. We act like Sarah Palin:
This does not sound like someone who believes the fetus is a human person. Imagine someone saying that about lynchings.
See what I mean?
We accept the fetus’ full humanity on some purely theoretical level, but we do not believe it with our blood and gut. If toddlers were being killed, you would not find endlessly repeated debates about the sanctity of human life. There would be riots.
Since we we seem unable to live as we believe, we need to take a step back and revisit our premises. We say that the fetus is fully a human person from the moment of conception.
What makes us think that? How do we know?
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So this Frank fellow has problems with dear old dad Francis (not to mention God) and the rest of us are supposed to follow him (or his followers here) down his road to destruction? I don’t think so.
Sawgunner, it depends on what point in time you are talking about Hitler. When he was first elected, I doubt I would say you could justify killing him; in time, I think I would have been willing to take the consequences for doing so. And there would be consequences, legal and before God.
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Most Christians I know believe that poisoning or dismembering an infant in the womb is a sin, just as we believe that unlawful violence is a sin.
No, the Christians you know believe that abortion is murder, the ultimate crime against persons. If they merely believed that abortion were a sin, they couldn’t demand the keys to the jail house.
Also, the Christians you know believe that violent action to save life is justifiable, even if it may be illegal. The founding document of the anti-abortion movement, “A Christian Manifesto,” asserts that Christians have a duty to take any measures to stop abortion that they could have taken to stop Hitler, according to Frankie Schaeffer. What’s illogical about this?
Murder demands more than “grieving, and prayer, and love for victims and perpetrators alike.” Since Tony truly believes that persons will be murdered at 8 a.m. M-F at the Women’s Clinic, he has to get up off his knees and do something to save life. Blogging about bloody murder doesn’t count. He’s got to prevent and obstruct. According to Francis Schaeffer.
If abortion destroys a person, it’s certainly murder. Most of the Christians who believe this aren’t pacifists. Therefore, anti-abortion leaders like Albert Mohler are writing essays about John Brown. What they say is, abortion really is a vile sin, but it’s not literally murder. This makes sense. By all appearances, the human fetus is not yet a person, and abortion isn’t personal injury.
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Where Rsd does Francis Schaeffer argue that an act such as Roeder’s in justified, or that he advocated such acts? Give the book, page number and post it so we can all read it. This accusation has tumbled about, so where is it? Not just hear say, but where?
I have read most of Francis Schaeffer’s, I have never read anything which comes close to what you have written.
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#9 JJF:
There is no inconsistency in a Christian believing on the one hand that the Christian’s proper response to a murderer running rampant is to grieve and pray, but not to employ violence, and on the other hand believing that the state’s proper response to a murderer is capital punishment, and that war is the proper response by the state in some circumstances (I will not try to define the circumstances or analyze any particular war). A Christian who recognizes that violence by the state is proper where violence by the individual is not, is in no way looking to the state to dictate when violence is proper. I can believe the execution of a murderer is just, and the prosecution of a war just, and at the same time mourn the loss of life. The joy of justice is often solemn, and accompanied by sadness and compassion for those who receive the just punishment.
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And I take no joy, solemn or otherwise, in the murder of Dr. Tiller. It was wrong.
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RKG:
Would you take joy in the murder of Osama bin Laden? Would you call that wrong? (Assume it were done by a private citizen rather than a soldier to avoid the “prosecution of a war” angle).
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For JJF – #9
How we respond to murder rests on the authorization (authority) God gives.
He authorizes anybody to defend against immediate attack. If a thief breaks into your home in the night, & you kill him, that’s justified. But it’s only justified during the attack. If you go out & find the thief the next day & kill him, you are a murderer. (Exodus 22:2-3). In self-defence or defence of the innocent, you may kill. In vengeance, repayment, no.
But God charges judges, the government, to defend the people through war & to execute justice against offenders. The government has authority to arrest an abortionist, charge him, & if he is indeed guilty, punish him. Nobody acting as an individual has that authority, but only as an officer of the state.
That’s why the Christian response to a Dr. Tiller is grief, prayer, attempts to teach people against abortion, provision for women in difficult circumstances so they will not feel the need for abortion, etc., but not to kill the abortionist. Christians in government may pursue laws which make abortion illegal. If those laws are enacted, as officers of the government, they may seek the arrest, trial & suitable punishment of abortionists. But they are not justified in taking the law into their own hands as private citizens.
With all due respect, the pacifist approach will not do. I say that as one who leaned that way at one point. The examples of David, Joshua, Gideon, Barak, Abraham & a host of others, all approved by God, disallow it. Even more, when the Roman soldiers asked John the Baptist, “what shall we do?”, he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14). He did not tell them to leave the army.
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Thanks, TruthVsChaos. That’s a good answer. I’ll definitely be mulling it over.
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It sounds like you’re disputing this premise:
(A) Even when the State refuses to act, moral men have an obligation to use violence against the wicked in defense of the innocent).
You’re saying that Christians not only have no obligation, but in fact are forbidden to use violence against the wicked in defense of the innocent, unless that violence occurs during an attack.
So “preventive slaying” is not just. Even if you know someone will certainly murder hundreds, you can’t go find him and kill him to prevent that.
But you make an exception for actually being there when the attack is taking place, which leads me to wonder: what if a Christian is present during an abortion.
If you walked into a room and saw a rape taking place, would you have an obligation to commit violence in the woman’s defense? I think we all (except the committed pacifist) would say “yes.”
If you walked into a room and saw an abortion taking place, would you have an obligation to commit violence in the baby’s defense?
I suspect there would be a lot more “no’s” here. Why is that? Simply because we’d have society’s approval in the first case but not in the second? Or because at some instinctual level, despite our rhetoric, we don’t treat the fetus the same as the woman?
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#27 TRUTHVSCHAOS,
Good post.
NJLAWYER makes a good point about Hitler. Looking back from 2009, we have the benefit of 60 plus years of hindsight. The evidence of his ruthlessness can’t be denied;we have the photos, survivors and soldiers’ eye-witness accounts and the physical locations of his atrocities besides the fact that he pursued a “war of aggression” against his neighbors with disregard to lives lost.
With all that, I’d say his death would’ve been justified. Decades ago, it was hard to determine the “right” action to take and who should take it. A military action would’ve been heralded as a triumph, but an individual? That’s tough.
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Thorn (17),
Thanks for the comment. I think I’m saying that the issue is much more complex than the simplistic slogans that the pro-life movement tosses about.
I also agree with JJF. If one has no doubts that abortion is murder, then one should also be advocating that the mother and the doctor face the most severe criminal punishment available. For example, I believe that the death penalty is justified. Therefore, if I believed that abortion were murder (I don’t), I’d be asking for the execution of all women who have abortions and their doctors. But pro-lifers who favor the death penalty are not crying out for the execution of the mothers and doctors. Why not? Above (12), I point out why I believe that this is the case: Saying, “Abortion is murder,” has simply become part of the idiolect by which one identifies oneself with the evangelical side of the culture war. In other words, the phrase has come to have no real meaning except as a sociological identifier.
I consistently hold to a qualified pro-life view. I believe that war, the death penalty, and abortion are justified in some circumstances. Devout Roman Catholics hold that war, the death penalty, and abortion are never justified. There is no sound basis for holding a qualified pro-life view in some circumstances and an absolutist view in other circumstances. (The “innocent life” argument fails because of original sin. Also, many “innocent” people are killed in wars.) The wierd politics of the culture wars explain why evangelicals may vacillate between qualified and absolutist pro-life views. Without questioning whether secularists are right or wrong, many evangelicals have simply adopted views that they see as contrary to what secularists espouse. If secularists say “Stop,” we’ll say “Go,” and so on.
That’s why we’ll never move beyond the current abortion impasse until the Baby Boomers die. Over-40 evangelicals have bought into an identity that depends on a secular opposition for its definition. Thus, their worldview is largely an anti-secular worldview, and not necessarily a Christian worldview.
I believe that most evangelicals truly hold to a qualified pro-life view, even on abortion. So, I agree that evangelicals are right to condemn Roeder’s actions. But because of the pernicious identity politics that have grown out of the culture war, many will never admit that they truly don’t believe that abortion is murder.
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In self-defence or defence of the innocent, you may kill. In vengeance, repayment, no.
“Preventive” killing of an abortionist isn’t vengeance, but obstruction of further and certain “murder.” It is justified in the same way that saboteurs would have been justified in killing a train crew that was hauling cattle cars full of people to a death camp. The killing wouldn’t stop the holocaust, but it would obstruct it.
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But according to TruthVsChaos’ answer, saboteurs would not have been justified in killing that train crew, unless they were soldiers acting under orders from their government in its prosecution of a just war.
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RSD (12),
I think we have to untangle legal and theological lines of thought. The state offers a legal definition of murder, and in most of western civilization this comports fairly well with the Church’s definition of murder (allow me to elide for a moment, until I address JJF below, the critical question of what constitutes, in this age of fragmented sects and denominations, “the Church”). When the state redefined murder in 1973 to exclude the execution of infants in the womb, we opened up a gap between the legal definition of murder and the Church’s definition of murder. The man who killed George Tiller will now be held accountable by the State of Kansas for his crime. George Tiller was convicted of no crimes by the State of Kansas. He will now be held accountable for the blood he legally shed on earth before the judgment seat of God.
You are right, there would be significant challenges to a legal definition of murder that fully comports with the Church’s sanction against killing innocents. I don’t think the solution is to modify the language of Christian discourse until those gaps are eliminated. We all of us must one day stand before the judgment seat, and not a one of us on that day will be able to say, “Well, the State said it was okay.”
As for cases where a woman’s physical health is in danger in the third trimester such that intact dilation and extraction seems necessary, even the AMA has been squeamish on this. If you read the JAMA literature you’ll see that those cases are pretty darn rare. That aside, recognize you are making a case for killing an infant to spare the life of his mother. I don’t know what the right answer is. I honestly don’t. I tremble at the thought of ever having to decide. If only we could approach every abortion with that fear, and that recognition of what is actually about to take place by our hands.
Finally, if you’ll re-read my essay you’ll see I don’t dispute Frank’s characterization of his father’s position. I even say that insofar as he did advocate, with his father, violence to stop abortion, then he is indeed culpable. My point is that no Christian I know ever advocated such a thing in my presence, so Frank’s bitter “apology” on behalf of the people he despises is unwarranted.
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#26 & 29 JJF: The non-self-defense killing of bin Laden by a private citizen would be wrong. I should not take joy in his death, and hope that I would not. It’s a good question.
This is also a good question: “But you make an exception for actually being there when the attack is taking place, which leads me to wonder: what if a Christian is present during an abortion.”
I think the answer is: When we speak of comitting violence to protect the innocent in the midst of an attack, we are almost always speaking of an attack that is itself illegal. Violence against the attacker in that situation is legally excused. Thus, the violent response is both just and legal. A violent response that is just in a metaphysical sense, but nonetheless illegal, would be sinful.
Violence against an abortion provider in the midst of an abortion is different as long as the abortion itself is legal. If the abortion were deemed an illegal killing of a person, then I think violence against the abortionist to stop the killing would probably, though not necessarily, be legally excused. Whether it is legally excused must be determined by legislative enactment (or possibly a court).
All this being said, I’m not sure I am satisfied with my answer. It begs the question: Does God’s law obligate, or at least allow, the Christian to use violence to defend the innocent from attack when the attack against the innocent is not itself illegal? If so, the Christian who believes abortion is an attack on an innocent (or, murder), and is present for the attack, would be obligated or allowed, whatever the case may be, to use violence to stop the attack. If not, then that Christian could rely on the legal vs. illegal attack distinction, and not act.
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Among the late-term abortions that Dr. Tiller performed were 11-year-old rape victims who hid their pregnancies, women who acquired fatal diseases after they got pregnant, and cases of fetal demise.
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TruthVChaos,
Consider these two scenarios:
1. X is a reputed serial killer who has killed several families in your neighborhood. His photo has appeared on the news and you are familiar with his appearance. As you take your garbage to the curb at 4 am, you see X entering your neighbor’s bedroom window. Your state only allows you to use deadly force when one is inside of the structure that is being breached. You have a handgun on you. Do you fire?
2. Dr. Y is a reputed abortion provider, and specializes in late-term abortions. He provides no other medical service except performing late-term abortions. You know what he looks like. It is legal in your state to perform late-term abortions in a home setting, so that women can avoid protesters at the clinic. The single woman next door is pregnant, and in her second trimester. She has said that she wishes that she’d asked her ex-boyfriend to use a condom because she really doesn’t want to go through with a pregnancy. Dr. Y pulls into her driveway in his new Lexus. He gets out with his medical tools in hand, and a nurse in tow. He says, “I got here as fast as I could; I didn’t want you to get cold feet and change your mind.” Your neighbor says, “No, I haven’t. Let’s do this.” You are standing in your driveway with your handgun. Do you shoot Dr. Y?
In the first instance, I would shoot. In the second instance, I would grieve, but not shoot. I think that most evangelicals would do the same. But if you believe that abortion is murder, you must act consistently in both instances.
Also, your argument relies too heavily on divine command ethics for my liking. Because we don’t live in an utterly depraved world, we are generally to rely on the light of nature (i.e., common grace) to guide us in civil governance in a pluralistic society. Of course, the Mosaic covenant can give us insights on how we can use natural principles to argue for good laws.
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JJF,
Your thoughtful questions deserve more thought than I can give them, so I hope smarter people will come in to fill the gaps in my thinking. The glaring dilemma we face is that we have fragmented what Christ established as one Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. You are asking questions that a Christian centuries ago could rightly have taken to the Holy Spirit-filled Church for guidance. But nowadays anyone can file an IRS 501c3 form and start himself a church. I’m comfortable with Augustine’s thoughts on war and violence, but not Pastor Billy down at the Foursquare Gospel Church.
I guess my point is that I think you are using the language of logic and philosophy to address a question that ultimately must be taken to Scripture and the Church. I say that with fear, because in Kansas alone there is a church led by a hate-filled homophobic bigot named Fred Phelps, and a church that afforded the likes of George Tiller holy communion. The Church, in other words, has been substantially weakened and fragmented, which means we end up trying to answer these questions by lining up verses from Scripture, or reading our favorite theologian or spiritual writer, or asking our preacher who may or may not be grounded in valid Christian teaching.
Church teaching and tradition, someone wise once explained to me, is like a river. The Church fathers argued with one another, and some of them were wrong about some things, but the Church overall maintained the Truth handed down to it by Christ and His apostles. Once it began to fragment, however, all these tributaries shot out from the river, so that now all we who call ourselves Christians stand in our streams and puddles and imagine that we have our feet firmly planted in the great river of Church teaching and Christian dogma.
One thing we can do is go back to the early Church fathers. What did Athanasius and John Chrysostom and Basil the Great teach about violence? What did Augustine say about war? We can still find ways to argue even as we go to these fathers for guidance in understanding Scripture, but I suspect if we begin there we are far less likely to stride far from the river of faith.
With all that said, I don’t think I have logically ironclad answers for you. Does the Church ever allow killing? Absolutely. A great many saints were warriors who defended the Church against infidel Muslims and other marauders. Does the Church teach that the death of any human being is to be mourned? Absolutely. Does this lead to quandaries? Yes, as you amply demonstrate.
What we must cling to above all else is that we are to love our fellow man. Love him when he falls, love him when he sins, pray for him when he strikes us down. Can I do that consistently? Absolutely not. Would I kill anyone who tried to harm my family? Without hesitation. But I am not, thank God, the arbiter of good and evil. We can only go on what Scripture and the fathers teach us (I know many of my Protestant friends will take issue with that), and I think the answers regarding abortion, and when killing is or is not sacntioned, have been fairly consistent and clear.
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Scroop Moth 35,
…and perfectly healthy, viable babies. Sixty thousand (that’s 60,000) is a large enough number or accommodate all kinds.
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Tony,
Thanks for the response. But the problem your logic is that Roe did not redefine murder in 1973. Anti-abortion statutes in many states did not punish abortion as murder, or even as a serious felony. Moreover, Anglo-American common law did not punish early-term abortion with criminal sanctions.
I agree that Frankie’s article was a bit too sanctimonious. I don’t care much for the guy.
On the other hand, I think that evangelicals need to get beyond the 5-word slogans that have come to characterize our public discourse during the culture-war era. We have become a bit too concerned with beating secularists over the head, and have not given adequate attention to discussing these kinds of issues within the evangelical community. I agree that secularists could probably use a few knocks on the head. But there are just better things for us to be doing.
I long for a day when the silly identity politics of the culture war can come to an end. I don’t see it happening, though.
I know that your generation sees things differently than mine does. I see secularists as a pretty small, innocuous band of Subaru-driving odd-balls. I couldn’t care less about what they do or say. I see most people in our society as pretty reasonable. If you can make sound, pragmatic (inductive) arguments for your proposed policies, then you have a decent chance. If you are too ideological and deductive, you will lose out.
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The movie and book about a Bush assassination were just “pointed political commentary” by liberals, but let something awful happen that might possibly be construed as part of a right wing conspiracy, and boy, the liberals start screaming about language creating negative climates…
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Tony,
Nice response to JJF. I generally agree. Nevertheless, I submit that common grace allows us to draw from the world around us and make inductive arguments for our positions. This allows you, Pastor Billy, Joe Secularist, and I to draw from the same basic set of facts. In making such arguments, the “true” argument will be that which best accounts for the data around us. Besides, we have an advantage: Scripture gives us a clue on what the answer should be.
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Thanks for the response, Tony.
This is, I believe, the best discussion about abortion that I’ve ever been involved in. I much appreciate the thoughtful posts from everyone.
As I understand it, Church tradition is less clear on the issue that you think. The medieval and ancient Church has always held abortion to be a sin, but they considered it not the sin of murder, but the sin of contraception (something we Protestants don’t even recognize as sin).
Augustine and Aquinas believed that “ensoulment” did not occur until around 40 days into the pregnancy. Augustine said:
St. Bede spells it out pretty plainly:
Tertullian also seems to recognize some noteworthy difference between abortion and murder:
I’m on shakier ground with this one, since it requires a bit of speculative extrapolation, but it seems to me that “even” implies much, like saying, “No, I don’t do pot. I’ve never even smoked a cigarette.” It’s saying you go above and beyond what is being asked. In saying that, you are recognizing some substantive difference between the two.
And I’ve read (and heard in a lecture) what RSD is saying, too, that abortion did not become a political flashpoint issue until 10 years after Roe v. Wade, when it was co-opted by conservatives as part of the much broader culture wars. I’m a little dubious, but I’d like to see more argument and evidence on both sides of that issue.
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TONY #33: My point is that no Christian I know ever advocated such a thing in my presence, so Frank’s bitter “apology” on behalf of the people he despises is unwarranted.
Frank Schaeffer apologized on behalf of himself, and no one else, not even his father, so it’s odd that Tony says otherwise.
Tony protests too much about never hearing violence recommended. Did he read “A Christian Manifesto” and “A Time for Anger”? Then he read a justification for vigilantism. Did he hear James Dobson’s radio program? Then he heard an imprimatur of that ethic. Did he hear abortion described with incendiary language, as murder? Of course he did. He heard the hate that fed the brains of the people who did what they felt compelled to do to stop King Herod’s slaughter.
Tony is shocked. Good.
If the shoe fits: Schaeffer blames his father, Dr. C. Everett Koop, “people like Jerry Falwell, Ronald Reagan and countless Republican leaders,” Dr. James Dobson, and other “leaders.” He singles out for special blame the theorists of vigilantism.
. . my father and I would have been shocked that someone took us at our word. . Words are spoken which — when taken seriously — lead directly to violence by the unhinged and/or the truly committed.
Frank also blames the “hate machine” that attacks abortionists as “murderers.” I guess that means WorldMag, too, Tony.
But at least, he’ll let you make your own apologies.
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It’s been a while since I’ve seen the work of the young Frankie Schaeffer, ideological bomb thrower that he once was. His full-throated engagement on the culture wars of the early 80s was pretty well known. Should he repent of that?
I would be more accommodating of his viewpoint if for no other reason than this: to the degree he recognizes his own intemperate words, it is probably good. Does this apology make it easier for others to hear the Good News, especially those of the cultured elite? Maybe. And here, I didn’t read him as all that different from Tony’s own advocacy of compassion — that view, too, seems to implicitly acknowledge that some of the earlier, more confrontational style of rhetoric may have generated its own difficulties. (I seem to recall some other posts of his exploring the impact of words).
One area perhaps yet to be explored — Tony, I would encourage this — is how to respond to the human situation of these women who sought Dr. Tiller’s “services.” The stories put forth are not of monsters, but of rather deeply anguished women. These past days I have been thinking quite a bit about how do we speak compassionately and faithfully to such women in the context of their very difficult pregnancies. We need that word.
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Please give the exact quote, name of book, page number where Schaeffer gives “justification for vigilantism” – keep in mind what the definition of “vigilantism” means.
vigilantism definition
1. law-enforcing citizen: somebody who punishes lawbreakers personally rather than relying on the legal authorities
2. U.S. vigilance committee member: a member of a vigilance committee
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JJF — To me, the salient feature of Augustine’s teaching is his anxiety about the possibility of certainty in the interpretation of scriptures. Exposition does little more than fill the world with books, which themselves require explication.
Augustine considers early spontaneous abortions to be utterly perished “like seeds that have never fructified.” He says the resurrection of a more fully formed fetus is a question about which ” I do not know whether it is in man’s power to resolve it.”
These quotes are from a book of Augustine that has been accessed online 528241 times!
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.ii.lxxxvii.html
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From Frank Schaeffer’s article at Huffington Post:
In the early 80s my father followed up with a book that sold over a million copies called A Christian Manifesto. In certain passages he advocated force if all other methods for rolling back the abortion ruling of Roe v. Wade failed. He compared America and its legalized abortion to Hitler’s Germany and said that whatever tactics would have been morally justified in removing Hitler would be justified in trying to stop abortion. I said the same thing in a book I wrote (A Time For Anger) that right wing evangelicals made into a best seller. For instance Dr. James Dobson (of the Focus On the Family radio show) gave away over 100,000 copies.
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#49 — your dispute is with Frank Schaeffer. For my part, I accept his representation of his father’s book. You have the book. If Frank misrepresents it, Tony and millions of Evangelicals would be thrilled to know.
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Moth,
I don’t find anything in Francis Schaeffer’s books which would label him advocating “vigilantism”</b. that Moth is what you wrote in your post #44 Moth – YOU WRITE: “Tony protests too much about never hearing violence recommended. Did he read “A Christian Manifesto” and “A Time for Anger”? Then he read a justification for vigilantism.”
I ask again, where is it in “A Christian Manifesto” ? – it’s up to you to provide the proof of which YOU SPEAK. BTW do you have a copy of the book “A Christian Manifesto” ? – did you read it, if you did, why not prove your point.
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Moth – 50
YOU WRITE: “your dispute is with Frank Schaeffer. For my part, I accept his representation of his father’s book. You have the book. If Frank misrepresents it, Tony and millions of Evangelicals would be thrilled to know.”
So you accept something without proof? – you like what Frank says, it sounds good to you, so you believe it?
Can anyone give a complete paragraphs or two of exactly what they are accusing Francis Schaeffer of?
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David L,
Your stereotypical and sweeping accusations against American evangelicalism were quite harsh and unkind, not to mention irresponsibly broad-brushed. Do you not still feel a need to come back and elaborate, or are you among the countless who would never accuse any other American group so broadly and harshly but feel it’s fine to do so to American evangelicals?
I’ll be back to elaborate when I’m not so busy.
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Scroopy, there is NOTHING you can say that will justify the killing of a perfectly healthy child prior to death by dismembership or sucking his brains out. That’s murder and it’s heartless to think otherwise. This person is innocent and it is dishonest to call this child anything other than a person.
When we speak of Hitler or bin Laden — these were/are men who are guilty. They certainly do not lack mens rea — the guilty mind. There is no way you can compare the murder of either of these people to the unmerited death of an infant in a late term abortion and/or partial birth abortion. There is no mens rea in the innocent child.
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RSD, #37, I think I have to take your last point first, because it is the key.
The fundamental issue at stake in it is how we determine right from wrong. When God gave us his law, in the Old Testament, he said in various ways & places, “You shall not add to nor take away from it”. What he was saying was that his law is the only standard of right & wrong. People may have preferences in areas that he does not specify, but any attempt to claim those preferences are morally right (required) or wrong (forbidden) is itself morally wrong.
When you talk about determining by the light of nature, you take away any line between right & wrong. Nature knows nothing of right & wrong. It only consists of what is. If you mean by the light of nature the human conscience which all of us have, then anything goes. Most if not all of the worst horror figures in human history would tell you that they believed that their actions were morally right.
The only reliable standard for right & wrong is God’s teaching in the Bible. Tell me something is right or wrong for some other reason, & you cannot show any compelling reason that your neighbour should accept your statement.
On to your dilemma:
#1. The reputed serial killer breaking in. You are not yet in the combat situation, dealing with an invader whose intentions are unknown & who may seriously injure or kill some or all in the house. That’s the situation in which God says you are innocent if you kill him. I’d suggest the obvious response is to draw your gun & shout, “Stop, or I’ll shoot!” That does two things. First, it makes plain that this time he will not get away with killing people in that house, because you know & can be a witness against him. Second, it offers a credible threat to his own safety if he does not stop. If he does not stop, you should try to shoot him in the leg, rather than shooting to kill him. Whether I would think fast enough & clearly enough to do these things, in that situation, is another question. I might well just shoot, but I think I would be wrong to do that.
#2. The abortionist entering the home is a different situation, not because the state allows abortion, but because he is legally entering that home. He is not coming armed, threatening the lives of anybody in his way to woman’s side where he can slaughter her child. If I were in the home, I would stand in the way. He would have to use violence to proceed, but he would not do that; he’d c all the police to remove me, or more likely the woman would. That would probably mean that I wound up in jail, but that’s another issue.
Let me add that there is no question that you can set up situations in which it is very hard to determine what is right & what is wrong. That goes back to the problem with the light of nature. We are all corrupt. That means we do not see clearly. Some people are red or green colour blind. That does not mean the traffic light is useless, flawed. Finding a situation in which people of good faith & good understanding differ as to what the Bible requires does not show a problem with the standard.
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RE: Schaeffer & the use of force.
Chapter 9 of “A Christian Manifesto” is entitled, “The use of force”. It begins, “There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate. The Christian is not to take the law into his own hands & become a law unto himself. But when all avenues to flight & protest are closed, force in the defensive posture is appropriate. This was the situation in the American Revolution.”
Does Schaeffer advocate force to end abortion? Yes, in the extreme situation. But he does not advocate vigilantism. He goes on to discuss just war theology, and refers to Samuel Rutherford’s classic study, “Lex Rex”. In classic Christian understanding of the biblical teaching on just war, one of the requirements is that it be called for by leaders in the community. A second pertinent requirement for our discussion on abortion is that it be winnable. If you can’t win, your war just causes more pain & suffering, & so is unjust.
But back to the requirement for leadership by the leaders of the community. Before Schaeffer would countenance the use of force against abortionists, he would require that well-known, well-established leaders step forward to engage, not in terrorist attacks, but in a war against the enemy. Franky Schaeffer, assuming the report of his remarks is correct, was slandering his father, because his father never to my knowledge would have accepted somebody going out to murder an abortionist. As a last resort, he would agree to a civil war led by those of good reputation (if it were winnable, among other requirements), against a government that was fundamentally unjust, but not to individuals committing murder or vandalism, nor to small groups choosing the path of terrorism.
That, by the way, would be his answer & mine to some individual going out to assassinate Hitler.
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TruthVsChaos – 56
You cite a quote in your first paragraph, – - BUT does this connect within the context of abortion? Does Francis Schaeffer say anything which you are quoting or other material using abortion or those who perform them in the same quote, or context which cannot be construed to mean something else?
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Yes, Victoria (#57), it connects in the context of abortion. On the very next page of the chapter, he wrote: “This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States — the issue of abortion. … Christians must come to the children’s defense, and Christians must come to the defense of human life as such.”
Schaeffer then specified four fronts on which that defense should be carried on. The end of them is civil disobedience, and clearly in this chapter, for Schaeffer civil disobedience could in the right circumstances go as far as civil war, revolution. But not vigilante individual “justice” nor terrorism.
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TruthVsChaos – 56
Here we have an extension of the quote you used, but failed to quote enough to make the point Francis Schaeffer was making in his book “A Christian Manifesto” you end your quote with “American Revolution” but the quote should have been further posted to give the true spirit of Dr. Schaeffer’s thought. So read on, and then go to the next paragraph which will give his true intentions as to its meaning –
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TruthVsChaos – 58
Stay on the quote above Chaos, and then read what he had to say about Hitler – and try and remember the point Schaeffer was making – don’t mix and match his remarks –
Most all Christians have read “The Hiding Place” by Corrie ten Boom and watched the film of her life. She and her sister Betsey hid Jews, they had a room built to hide them. Schaeffer knew all about that story and Corrie, and most likely was thinking about it when he wrote this part of his book.
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It’s vitally important to know that vigilantes aren’t lone rangers but members of self-appointed groups of citizens who undertake law enforcement without legal authority, typically because the duly constituted authorities are thought to be inadequate or unresponsive.
A vigilante needs his group to lift the tabu against killing by individual initiative.
Dr. Tiller’s assassin may not have acted alone, and the FBI is investigating his “connections” with pro-life groups. There very likely may be a closer order of “connection” between the assassin and WorldMag than there was between Saddam and Al Qaeda. In any case, the assassin was in operational communication with pro-life groups. This is a crucial feature of a political crime.
Abortion rights advocates need to seize this opportunity to educate the public. Advocates can dramatize the ironic links between the “pro-life” rhetoric of murder and the assassination of abortion doctors. Americans must think of abortion protesters as the KKK. They’re free to express their opinions, but they’re not respectable. Shame-creating language, the “pro-life” weapon of choice, can easily be turned around and used against them.
During Dr. Tiller’s funeral, “pro-life” groups will stage a nationwide commemoration of Conn. v. Griswold with placards that say “Pills Kill” or something like that. Pills save lives. Abortion protesters kill.
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Steveg, that is a terrible thing to say – I can’t think of one person on this blog who would have any connection to the assassin.
Where have you received this information?
Those who are anti-abortion, or protest abortion, are now referred to as killers?
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#63 Darn right it should! I would never say any such thing.
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Steveg,
Are you going to forgive me, I am sorry, I KNOW you would not say something like that – When I realized my mistake I felt very badly, please accept my apology.
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I found all of this thought provoking, and I thank those of you who provided interesting and insightful comments.
As one who got involved in the pro-life movement in 1979 after hearing Francis Schaeffer and C. Everett Koop, I can assure you I was not looking to become a vigilante or to harm anyone. I’ve spent most of the last 22 years as a volunteer at pregnancy counseling centers trying to provide a practical and life-affirming alternative to terminating the life of a fetus.
I’m also, however, a woman who carried a baby at the same she had a suspicious lump in her breast. For six months we weren’t sure if I had cancer or not–and it was a difficult time; weighing the worth of my life against that of the growing baby.
The first thing the surgeon and I discussed was I would not abort. We moved on from there–and had a happy ending.
I’m sensitive to the argument someone made about reaching out to the women in need whom Dr. Tiller “cared” for. I’m not sure how to do that effectively, other than to weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn.
The percentage of women whose physical lives are threatened by carrying a child to term is close to zero. The percentage of women who carry a horrifically malformed child is small, but they still are grieving families. We don’t need to add to their horror by condemning them as evil.
So, I’ll spend the next couple days thinking through a lot of these comments–I may print this whole series out (first time ever). And, again, I thank you.
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Karen,
Thanks once again for showing up to correct me and warn others why they should not listen to what I say!!
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Good post, MICHELLE.
Meeting the needs of women in these situations should be one of the top priorities.
SCROOP,
Roeder may not have acted alone. I think Frankie Schaeffer confessed recently to aiding him (a little sarcasm there), but seriously, we mustn’t forget that abortion and complications thereof has killed many women not to mention those who are permanently injured.
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STEVE G: I would never say any such thing.
Be careful. Franky Schaeffer has already said such a thing, and who knows if you might have to as well. All someone has to “know” in order to assert a link between WorldMag and Roeder is that sombody said that someone who “associates” with Roeder had a meeting in Prague with someone who wrote for WorldMag. If that order of “connection” justified the invasion of Iraq, it probably can justify the kind of accusations that Franky makes.
DEET: thanks but I would think that more women die from pregnancy than from birth control pills — especially in poor countries. The Griswold protesters don’t want us to consider that, however. They only want you to sense guilt that taking the pill turns you into a murderer of the tiny people in your body.
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PS. Maybe Roeder read WorldMag and posted a comment? In the context of terrorism, that counts as conspiracy! The no-fly list, minimum.
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Well, Scroop Moth, you’ve read and commented here too, so what does that say about you?
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The Griswold protesters don’t want us to consider that, however.
Park’s closed. The moose outside should’ve told you.
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Reg – My goodness! That was not my intent at all!
I find you an interesting & sensitive person, & often your brief comments pique my curiosity (as in – What does she mean? Where is she “coming from” with that?).
Unfortunately, you often don’t engage in deeper “conversation” here, or instead of explaining your position, you refer to a book. (I did finally read Pagan Christianity just so I could understand what your various, almost cryptic comments were about.)
My above comment to you was not intended as a put-down, but as an observation. We are all products of our experiences, & often those experiences can bias us on certain issues.
I am truly sorry if my comment offended you – it was truly not intended the way you took it.
If it is your wish, I will not engage with you anymore on this blog. But that would be too bad, because in replying to one another we here on WMB often have a chance to either help someone see things from our own perspective, or to learn about other perspectives.
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TruthVChaos (55):
Your response to my two scenarios is telling. You did not consider whether the fetus would have authorized Dr. Y’s entry to the property to commit the act that he is about to commit. Perhaps that’s because you don’t really believe that the law ought to consider what the fetus would desire? Thus, you made my point for me: We find ourselves in a legal mess when we start conferring rights to unborn fetuses.
Also, your Bible-only view of ethics flies in the face of 2000 years of Christian ethical teaching. Certainly, your views on ethics place you well outside of Protestant orthodoxy. Of the various Protestant traditions, the Reformed tradition has historically placed the greatest emphasis on the role of the Mosaic covenant in Christian ethics. But your view goes well beyond anything that any mainstream conservative Presbyterian would propose. Please read Stephen Grabill’s recent book and David Gordon’s article entitled “The Insufficiency of Scripture”.
Furthermore, you have placed certain criteria on whether an ethical rule is useful. You appear to believe that an ethical principle has value only insofar as it makes black-and-white distinctions between right and wrong. Well, the real world is simply messier than that. Yet because of common grace, we can still make wise judgments (even if they are necessarily contingent in certain respects). In other words, we don’t live in a world in which we have to make a Hobson’s choice between truth and chaos (as your handle suggests we do).
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Yes, SCROOP, death does lie close to us, and the physical process of bringing new life into the world is fraught with difficulty, start to finish for both mother and child.
So why court the death that abortion brings? What does it satisfy? I agree with some of the earlier posts here that called for dialogue away from the emotionally charged rhetoric and the political quagmire created by both sides.
Abortion must be recognized for what it is: an attitude of the heart, first and foremost. It is a symptom, not the disease.
Criminalizing it, labeling those involved as “murderers” is quite effective in “rallying the troops” and raising money (for both sides) but it does not address the problem itself.
I’m not sure overturning Roe v. Wade would solve a whole lot either. It would be like taking an aspirin for a brain tumor. The headache may go away temporarily, but you’re going to die unless the real problem is dealt with.
People’s hearts are not changed by politics. Only the Gospel can do that.
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Michelle — liked your comment. I believe mine @ 45 was the comment about considering the women.
I, too, think this has been an interesting discussion.
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I have always avoided calling abortion murder because that plunges one into judgements regarding motives and into legal definitions. I suspose if it could be demonstrated that the motive of the mother was greed or convenience then a case could be made for calling it “murder”, at least to the mind and conscience of many people. Of course, abortion isn’t against the law so it isn’t murder (legal definition) until it is.
I’ve always used the term killing to describe what happens when a baby is aborted, because thats what does happen.
PS
Franky Schaeffer is just another liberal-type that fits well over on Huffpo. Yawn.
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Although I may have made somewhat of a reputation for myself as a slightly paranoid conspiracy theorist or something like that, I will give a few of my thoughts here, especially since this is one of my favorite topics to discuss.
In response to Sawgunner’s question:
Would it have been immoral to pull the sniper rifle’s trigger if you had Hitler in the cross hairs of your sniper scope? Why or why not?
I say “no,” it would not be immoral, and I would pull the trigger as soon as I had a clear shot. As many have “heard” me say before, I believe that having bin Laden, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, or any other tyrannical mass-murderer, assassinating him/her would prevent many other people from being killed, tortured, and imprisoned. Basically, the assassination of such a person would free people from oppression, but it would not be an act of vengeance. If, however, the “bad guy” was already caught, and then someone killed him (like Jack Ruby did), that wouldn’t be right, because he would already be going to meet with justice after being tried for his crimes. While capturing the murderer is preferable to killing them, in many cases it’s impossible or nearly so (for instance, you may be able to shoot Hitler with a sniper rifle, but you can’t take him out of Germany alive; it’s just too difficult).
To further elaborate:
Assassinating Hitler and other leaders would likely prove effective, since they were responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people, and they were the ones that their henchmen looked up to; taking them out might throw the ranks into confusion for some time…unless Himmler takes over, but then he can be taken care of also.
I don’t believe in vengeance, so, for instance, if someone like Ted Bundy killed someone (in this case, a girl) who was one of my friends, I would try to take him alive and hand him over to the law to mete out justice to if I caught him. (i.e. Taser him and drop him off at the police station, handcuffed) I might have a personal interest in the matter, but that wouldn’t be vengeance, since it would be the law, not me, that would be executing justice on the criminal.
However, I’m not entire sure what I would do if a murderer such as Bundy had already killed someone and I arrived (armed) too late to stop him, but he was getting away and was at a distance that I was pretty sure I could hit him, bit it might be fatally.
I think I would probably have to take the shot, or I would have the measure of guilt in the future if he struck again and I had the knowledge that I could have stopped him.
As much as I dislike what the government is becoming (”Big Brother is watching you”), it’s still not entirely evil, so I believe it is still the job of the government to mete out justice (even with the legal system the way it is) – right now.
Once vigilantism (even well-intentioned vigilantism, as in The Boondock Saints) starts, it can get well out of hand and create chaos, especially when people aren’t governed by any law or moral standards.
I do believe there is a time to resist a tyrannical government, but that time has not come yet, and domestic terrorists such as Bill Ayers killed innocent people…I suppose one difference in the future will be that there will be no innocent people?
See Judges 3:15-30, which tells about how Ehud assassinated Eglon and freed Israel from oppression (be warned, it’s slightly gross in one verse).
Any thoughts? I hope I wasn’t too incoherent.
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Bill Ayers killed no one, RIO.
I congratulate JACK for avoiding the word “murder” in describing abortion.
Although some states would make abortion a crime if they could — say the crime of “abortion” — it’s hard to think of any state that would make abortion the equivalent of homicide. In order to do that, abortion would have to be treated as a form of murder for hire, and there’s no logical way of absolving the party that initiates and pays the contract. Either the abortionist and the mother are both killers, or neither are.
Abjuring the rhetoric of murder sets the pro-life movement on course to acknowledge that abortion is not a crime against persons. You have to admit that, if abortion isn’t murder, it can’t be a form of assault and battery, either. (Conversely, if abortion is assault, it must be murder.) Whatever the crime of “abortion” may be, it is not a crime against persons.
The logical way for the pro-life movement to think of abortion is as a misdeed against community sensibility in locales where people take offense. Abortion would be a social breach like nudity or urinating in public, an unwonted remainder of animality. A bit worse than a faux pas, such misbehavior would be disgusting but it would not constitute a moral defect, as Aristotle defines morality.
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Scroop,
Another logical way for the prolife community to think of abortion—particularly abortion of a viable fetus—is as voluntary manslaughter. This takes into account the mothers state of mind and allows for varying degrees of mitigation.
But for an abortion provider, voluntary manslaughter would not fit. Because someone who is making a profitable living from performing those abortions, would not have the same state of mind at all that the mother is laboring under. So the provider would be likely be liable for a heavier consequence.
Or it also could be considered as a form of infanticide, particularly in the cases of the abortion of a healthy, viable fetus. These are just a couple of very reasonable alternatives to first degree murder.
Any serious comparison of the deliberate death of a viable human being—regardless of age— to nudity or urinating in public, would certainly qualify as a depraved idea I think. And as such, not worthy of serious consideration.
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DJ —
Prosecuting the mother for anything at all is a huge political problem. Regardless, it sounds like you are willing to charge her with voluntary manslaughter (killing without malice). That’s a tough position — but still a cop-out.
In most cases of homicide, wanting to get rid of an inconvenience and being mentally distraught count as motives for the crime and evidence of guilt, not as exculpation and mitigation. In most homicides, the degree of the crime is determined by the premeditation, not the developmental status of the victim.
Not prosecuting the mother for murder alleviates a political problem but creates a cognitive problem.
In cases of contract killing, the makers of the contract are considered to be the bearers of the malice. The professional killers are necessary but not sufficient to the crime — they’re in it for the money. Abortion doctors have even less “malice.” Where is the malice of a doctor who doesn’t consider the fetus to be a person, and wouldn’t perform the operation without pay or a belief in the service? Why isn’t that state of mind also mitigating?
I agree that killing a person is a depraved thing to do. I have been less disposed to justify it than many other posters on this blog, in the circumstances that are frequently discussed (death penalty, collateral casualties in war, perimeter defense of one’s home, etc.).
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I don’t think of blacks as people. Therefore, if I kill one it shouldn’t count as murder.
Makes perfect sense.
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Scroop,
I think in your post #82 you’re trying a little too hard to force the prolife community into a necessary claim of murder, so that you can more easily topple the reasoning behind it. I’m not going to argue the fine points of law because I’m not a lawyer, but I still maintain that involuntary manslaughter for the “crime” of late term abortion’ (which you mentioned in your post #80) would fit, and would still allow mitigation for women who are traumatized. And that, given such a law, abortionists would bear a greater guilt, since they are profiteering from a ‘crime’ of desperation and have no mitigating circumstances.
You mentioned on another thread that you were interested in discussing the concept of personhood. I think that is really what we are talking about here. I think such a law as I’m talking about would indicate that actual ‘personhood’ be defined as viability. Morally, I find that more than a little slippery, but it has a certain practicality to its advantage.
What do you think is required for ‘personhood’?
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Sorry, that should be “I still maintain that voluntary manslaughter…” not involuntary.
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There was a time in this country when abortion was not legal. I vote we go back to that time and then start discussing the whole thing over from that time period—adding what we know scienctifically about babies in the womb, of course.
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Ha! You have my vote, Ki. I only wish time moved in that direction occasionally. I’d do a whole lot of things differently.
As for abortion, it seems we have learned so much about fetal development and have fewer and fewer culturally acceptable mores to deal with that knowledge.
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So sadly true, DJ.
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DJ – Presence in society is a sufficient condition for legal recognition of a person. Birth is the beginning of human nurture and nature, as distinct from our mammalian development. The newborn acquires mental characteristics of personhood during the first months of life. But of course the community already regards the newborn as a person. It’s fortunately impossible for us not to respond to the big eyes, round heads, and high voices. Nevertheless, humane people have argued that the child doesn’t have a sense of self (spirit?) until the age of seven.
St. Augustine hypothesized a fetus without a soul, which was probably his marker for what i call “personhood.” His platonism enabled him to distinguish conception and ensoulment. If you can do that, you don’t need to think of abortion as a violation of the personal destiny of a unique ego, because that spiritual dimension of personhood has not yet incarnated into our biology. Christian mystics, Rosicrucians, and theosophists have thought in these terms.
This isn’t a justification for infanticide, only an argument that the fetus certainly does not attain personhood at any stage of gestation. Further, I think the concept of “viability” supports abortion rights throughout pregnancy. Compared with other mammals, the human fetus is never viable. Every human is born premature. This is the trick of nature that allows passage of the head through the birth canal before it becomes too large, so that the final stages of “gestation” can occur in human society.
Another way of defining personhood is to contrast ourselves with chimps, whom we consider not to be persons. Looking at examples of our distant ancestors, we’d probably assign homo habilis to a zoo but homo erectus to an asylum.
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Scroop,
Sounds so logical. Is such nonsense.
A human fetus is a living human being–a person. And though deliberately killing that very young person may not legally be murder, in every meaningful way (morally and in God’s eyes) it is murder. And yes, if abortion were ever made illegal again, the mother should be prosecuted–other than personal discomfort with the idea, there’s no good reason not to, any more than we exempt morhers who kill their two-year-olds from murder charges. If the charge is something less than murder, I might be able to live with that–but not with her being considered innocent. She isn’t.
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We can sear our conscience to anything to justify our behavior. Nazi death camps are a classic example or more recently the genocide between Hutu and Tutsi or the random raining of rockets and suicide bombers on civilians. We have been brainwashed by a constant mantra to deaden our common sense. Ask the two happy boys known as snowflake babies who were embryos resued in Katrina and now live happy healthy lives when life begins.
We went to war and spend billions of dollars because terrorists killed 3,000 innocent souls. Who will stand up for the 49,000,000 innocent Americans who have lost their lives to abortion. For those who are still to die. That is the REAL inconvenient truth.
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Interesting variety of points of view and much more civil than many blogs, but at some point, we need to stop talking about “them” and “us.” A much more germane question is: What is the church doing within the church? Does our preaching and concern for social justice begin when we walk out the door? What about Christians who make bad choices and face the reality of economic destitution and single-parenting? Do they find solace and grace “in” the church? Do women who have had abortions find a place for repentance and healing? The reality is that we are not going to change our culture until we ourselves have changed.
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This Sermon for the President–and for the People of God by Presbyterian Pastor David Bayly is very relevant to this discussion. I think it further articulates the principles TruthvsChaos is advocating, although TruthvsChaos can correct me if I’m wrong.
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Ree, (#93) I don’t agree with everything in Bayly’s sermon – for example, I think Phinehas’ action was justified because Phinehas, as a high ranking priest, was automatically a senior magistrate in that time. However the general thrust of what he says is good.
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Different times the “hard case” situation has been raised. Is it OK to abort to save a mother’s life?
The simplest answer has appeared – there is almost never such a case. There have been for many years a considerable number of highly knowledgeable medical doctors in my congregation. Years back, at a social event, we got into discussion about this. After considerable thought they could only come up with one condition which would require “abortion” to save a mother’s life, & they were of the opinion that a woman with that condition would not be able to conceive. Essentially, they agreed that it was never a real issue.
However, there is also another answer that covers even the almost impossible case. Thirty years ago the Presbyterian Church in America produced what I consider the best available study paper on this whole subject. http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-015.doc. That paper put forward a very simple answer to the supposed hard case. We are to remember that both mother & child are patients. We do our very best to protect both. If the mother requires an operation that threatens the life of the unborn child, the goal would be to delay the operation as long as was safe for the mother, to give that child the best possible chance of survival, & then to give the mother the medical treatment she required, while doing all that was possible to protect the child as well. In other words, you do not perform an abortion, but try to save both lives. If the child’s life cannot be saved, we grieve & recognize that we are limited. Doctors do that all the time, as their patients come with diseases or injuries we cannot yet cure.
In the hard case, you try to save both, but if only one can be saved, you save that one. You do not deliberately sacrifice either, though a mother might choose to sacrifice her life for her child, in some cases. But then she has the choice, just as a soldier may choose to fall on a grenade to protect his companion(s).
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RSD (#75)
I don’t really understand your comment about my response to your dilemma. You appear to expect me to claim that the unborn child’s presumed dissent to Dr. Y’s entry makes it illegal for him to enter. If that’s right, I reject your expectation. The mother’s consent makes it legal for Dr. Y to enter. The only question mark would be if the father were present & dissented. If they had a 25 year old child still living with them, that young adult could say, I object to Dr. Y coming in here, but his entry would still be legal, because one of the owners of the place permitted it. By your reasoning, as it reads to me, you would think that I am allowing that adult young man no rights, which I hope you know to be ridiculous.
However, let me approach this in a different way. Given my choice, I would reject all discussion of rights. Instead of a bill of rights, we need a bill of responsibilities. Why? Because with rights, we inevitably come to conflicts about where one person’s rights stop & another’s begin.
Turn all the rights into responsibilities, & things start to look very different. Instead of a right to life, in this case, we set a responsibility. Individuals are responsible to do nothing which brings harm to another person or takes that person’s life other than in self-defence or defence of another person who is directly threatened. Government has the same responsibility, with the exception for penalties incurred by illegal action, after guilt is proven in court of law.
Instead of a right to be free from harm, we have a responsibility to do good to others, not harm.
That’s what we see in biblical teaching: not a right to be loved, but a responsibility to love God & love others, a responsibility which is explained in more detail in the ten commandments, & in still more detail through the rest of the Bible.
Regarding the question of morals & ethics & the Bible. You are very mistaken in thinking my view is anything but Protestant orthodoxy. David Gordon’s article does not attack my claim in the least. He agrees that the Bible is sufficient for faith & practice – which certainly includes ethics & morals. The Bible’s own testimony is clear on the subject: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). There is enough in the Bible to equip God’s people “thoroughly” “for every good work”. While I agree with David Gordon that it is wise to listen to others, etc., that it makes life easier if you do, I would suggest that if he is in fact saying that that means there is not sufficient in the Bible to find your way to every good work, he has departed from the Bible & from orthodoxy. But I don’t think he is saying that.
Further: Deuteronomy 4:1-2 “Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” If you read on through chapter 4 you discover it is the introduction to Moses’ rehearsal of the 10 commandments. God tells us what is right & what is wrong, & we are not free to add or subtract.
Now here is where David Gordon’s argument comes into play. God does not directly address the protection of a composer’s interest in his music or a writer’s interest in what he has written. He gives us a simple law, “you shall not steal” & some specific applications of that law in the tribal, agricultural society which his church formed in the early Old Testament period. If by referring to the light of nature, you are arguing that we have to think out how to apply that in our present very different cultural situation, we have no argument. That’s where our copyright laws developed, for example.
But if you think we can come up with our own ethics apart from God’s law, we are in total disagreement. If that’s your claim, I’ll invite you to test it. Propose a “light of nature” law, & give convincing reason why I or anybody else should agree to it. In the end, you will have John’s opinion against Sally’s, & neither has any obligation to accept the other as an authority.
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Tony equates the terms “killing” and “murder” …
A cow is killed to make your hamburger, Tony.
Is this also “murder?”
Please answer …
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Killing a cow and not knowing if it is murder is what happens when you don’t have a reason to believe there is any significant difference between animals and human beings.
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