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Islamic Saudi Academy may expand
A controversial Saudi-funded school is trying to expand and drawing opposition, reports the New York Times. The Virginia-based Islamic Saudi Academy is trying to build a new classroom building to consolidate students from two campuses onto one campus in Fairfax, Virginia. Some residents are concerned about the noise and the traffic, but others call the school a “madrassa.”
Get Religion points out some of the gaps in the NYT’s reporting of the school’s background. A year ago, WMB reported that the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom collected 17 textbooks containing passages that justified intolerance, violence and murder. This was after it recommended the school close until the Saudis kept a promise to excise any passages promoting violence. The Academy said that the Commission’s findings were based on “mistranslated and misinterpreted texts, and references to textbooks that are no longer in use at the Academy.”
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This was after it recommended the school close until the Saudis kept a promise to excise any passages promoting violence.
I can only imagine the histrionics which would ensue if a Christian School were directed by a US Commission to close until it excised “passages promoting violence” from the Christian bible used in a Christian school.
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The problem with Arcadia’s “analysis” is that it’s based on an apples to oranges comparison. There are no comparable passages promoting violence against “infidels” in the Bible. On the other hand, there are in the Koran.
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The city needs to donate land for a Shiite school across town. I already see a day when a Shiite gal falls for a Sunni boy. Leonard Bernstein is dead but I can almost hear: “Nabila, I’ve just met a girl named Nabila!..”
Seriously, if you’re going to permit a muslim school, require it to teach Shiite, Sufi and other versions as well.
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Beware the “unfalsifiable” nature of Koranic literature.
The Academy said that the Commission’s findings were based on “mistranslated and misinterpreted texts, and references to textbooks that are no longer in use at the Academy.”
If you do not read Arabic, then of course you can always be accused of “mintranslating” or “misinterpret-[ing]” the text of the Koran. (I’m not sure how that applies to “textbooks” that are based on the Koran.) My understanding is the the “official” stance is that the Koran cannot be understood unless you read the original Arabic. No translation allowed in argumentation apparently.
Not so with the Bible. Just another huge difference….
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We do have laws against sedition, Arcadia.
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We don’t make the Catholics teach Baptist or Reformed or Lutheran, etc.
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“Seriously, if you’re going to permit a muslim school, require it to teach Shiite, Sufi and other versions as well.”
That would be unconstitutional, unless you think it’s also possible to force an Evangelical school to teach the Roman Catholic catechism.
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#7 Mynock, Quite true.
But just as cancer is taught in medical schools, so too should any person of faith have familiarity with the rudimentary claims of competing faiths. Dr Richard Land references papal encyclicals and other documts even though as a Baptist he presumably (like Michael Vick) doesnt have a dog in that fight
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#7 cont’d:
I would hope that muslim parents would demand that the full gamut of muslim theology be given to their kids.
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#1 There are no passages in the Bible promoting violence today. There are historical passages about the laws of an ancient civilization which have no relevance to modern life other than as a teaching tool about old testament justice and messianic deliverance.
As for this case, I don’t see why the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom is in the business of censorship. What they should be doing is informing American citizens about what these people are saying. That is providing more information, not less.
Promoting terror against the United States is a civil matter. Could the school be shut down for teaching students to murder and commit acts of terror?
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I would have to see what the text books actually said, but Arcadia does make a good point that if passages are taken too literally this could be used against Christian schools,;especially in light of the recent “Right Wing Extremist” hysteria.,
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“The Academy said that the Commission’s findings were based on “mistranslated and misinterpreted texts, and references to textbooks that are no longer in use at the Academy.” ”
You know you’re getting close to the truth when this accusation comes out.
My Arabic reading acquaintences tell me the Koran is ever bit as broad-based gruesome/violent as the critics of Islam say.
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Oh, go ahead and bash Muslims all you want. I don’t have a horse in that race.
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I thought you were leaving….guess you’re addicted.
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I studied Arabic while at the Defense Language Institute. Never read the Quran in Arabic but I did read the Bible or a few books out of it in Arabic.
Amazing thing to me is that worldwide muslims must learn Arabic to read and recite the Quran. I went to a Catholic church as a guest where no one had a Bible with them. Far worse to have a “holy book” but not be able to read it in your own language.
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Not a whole lot of ancient Greek readers in these parts. Or Aramaic either.
Xion #1 There are no passages in the Bible promoting violence today. There are historical passages about the laws of an ancient civilization which have no relevance to modern life other than as a teaching tool about old testament justice and messianic deliverance.
As you well know, there are passages containing, supporting and encouraging some truly gruesome violence which are frequently interpreted and cited by people as justifying violence today. Your bible’s condemnation and calls for elimination of rival groups are just as forceful as those of the koran.
(The other day I posted a quote from a contemporary rabbi, who advocated that Israel mete out some of what he calls “Jewish Justice” which involved the killing of children and the burning of their parents’ livestock and crops).
And if the question involves the exposure of children to such sadistic, eugenic literature, I think it’s an excellent idea to ban both.
The idea that vile, hateful and sadistic literature should be presented to children, just because it is in a book regarded by some as “holy”, is ridiculous. Unless, of course, one just wants to scare them into belief…
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Wow. If I ever wanted an example of a straw man argument I need look no further than Acradia’s post.
Christianity get’s it’s name because Christians follow the teachings of Christ. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ that advocate that His followers use violence in any way to influence change.
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16 is an example of what I was talking about. This could be twisted to ban certain teachings in the Bible in school. The commission mentions “passages that justified intolerance”. The word “intolerance’ has been used to justify all kinds of suppression.
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PPat: Did not Jesus tell his followers to honor the laws and teachings of the Prophets? Is that not a teaching?
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, he that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
That’s just great stuff for reading to school kids.
And isn’t the primary object of Christian worship the god, who most here believe is the “author” of the entire bible? Or do you think there are two different gods–one responsible for the OT and one different one whom Jesus teaches you to honor?
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This topic has nothing to do with the Bible, but the anti-Christian bigots cannot rest until they express their intolerance and spew their hate.
No Christian interprets the Bible today as Arcadia does. If the rabbi Arcadia quotes were to carry out those verdicts he would promptly be arrested. And so Arcadia’s extremist position has no foundation in reality.
Arcadia fails to understand a God who who has power to give life and to take it away. Justice taken to its logical limits is severe. That does not make it wrong. It simply makes mercy that much more powerful and appreciated.
But Arcadia is simply on a rampage of rage and cares nothing for what Christians worldwide actually think and believe. For this reason he/she lurks about to sabotage the beliefs of all who would dare to disagree with him/her.
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Xion,
Don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think about Arcadia.
By the way, most of her post #19 is just quoting the Bible.
No Christian interprets the Bible today as Arcadia does.
I believe this is usually called “spin.”
Xion, you’re not as obnoxious as Solon/Peter Leavitt was (who was the Babe Ruth of insulting people who don’t hold to the angry, hostile “love” of the Christians here, but your failure to match him is not because you don’t try real hard, and it’s not because you are not full of bile and anger parading itself as “love.”
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Talitha koum. or in the Greek “?????? ????”.
Arcadia, I studied New Testament Greek and Aramaic many years ago. Don’t presume that you know everything, Arcadia. It just makes you look even more , uh, less knowledgeable.
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rats the greek letters did not show up…
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The problem is that it is being built on conserved land, which the Fairfax Christian Academy used to own, and eventually sold when the local government repeatedly denied them the right to expand their campus on it. Although that same local government seems to be in a huge rush to grant that right to the Islamic Saudi Academy. Snapped Shot lives in the area and has been following the story for some time:
http://snappedshot.com/?serendipityaction=search&serendipitysearchTerm=islamic+saudi+academy
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Here is a publication by the Center for Religious Freedom on the virulent form of Wahhabi hate that is being spread by Saudi Arabia in American cities.
This is not about an ancient book or ancient beliefs. This is about modern textbooks and material that advocate violence and terror in America today.
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intolerance, violence and murder
worldmagblog argument: See, there are groups even worse than us! We only indulge in intolerance most of the time; we seldom engage in violence and murder
Conservative Christians: the not so bad fanatics.
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Islam must be recognized as both a religion and a political movement. Their politics are as abominable and seditious as those of the Nazis. We did not allow Nazi politics in the U.S. when we were at war with them. Allowing Nazi politics in the U.S. during WWII would have crippled our war effort and eventual victory. In contrast, we allowed Communist politics here during the Vietnam era and we lost that war largely because of it.
Yet we now allow Islamic politics under the deceitful cover of their religious “rights”—rights that they claim only to their advantage and then routinely deny to everyone else when they gain power. They are not true believers in religious rights and we should not accept the lie that they are, just so that our freedoms can be used to eventually destroy those same freedoms. We are at war with political Islam (regardless of all the foolish statements to the contrary) just as surely as we were at war with the Nazis in WWII and the Communists in Vietnam.
Any expression of Islamic politics should be prohibited in this country, and that should include the shut down of their Islamic Academy in Virginia. Are we going to follow the example of our victory in WWII or our defeat in Vietnam?
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#27 Michael. Your assessment of Islam is correct. However, you can’t and shouldn’t suppress political or religious speech. Nor can you shut down a school that has broken no laws.
The answer is for Obama to stop bowing low and kissing Saudi princes who are building these terrorist schools and mosques. Obama should allow America to increase oil and coal production and begin to ween ourselves from Saudi oil. Obama could stop selling off America to foreign countries and going into debt to them. The legislature could pass laws disallowing foreign governments from building organizations in America that undermine America. Obama could publicly discuss his disapproval of the over 200 textbooks condoning murder and hate.
Instead, Obama sends terrorists to tropical islands and kisses the hands of princes who desire to overthrow America. Instead he is spending billions to support terrorists and terrorist nations using taxpayer debt.
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Xion (#28):
I agree with you completely on the subject of religious speech. However, political speech in time of war is another matter.
Do you think that we were wrong in suppressing Nazi political speech during WWII?
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#29 I don’t know the legality of that Michael. Perhaps NJLawyer could weigh in.
I have been reading Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism, which discusses the Sedition Act of 1918 passed at the urging of the socialist Woodrow Wilson.
I oppose Wilson’s Sedition Act. Censorship is typically a tool used by the soft fascism of the big government left. I prefer to have more information if perchance the truth might also get through.
The battle with Islam is an ideological one. The problem is that we have no warriors on that front and opposition to Islam is considered hate speech. The problem is not that there is too much speech, but too little. I think Saudi Arabia should be blasted and shamed for their duplicitous agenda. Islamic extremism should be exposed and condemned. But the press is too timid. And Obama is a champion of their cause.
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Xion (#30):
I did a little research on the the Espionage Act of 1917 and its amendment known as the Sedition Act of 1918. Most of their provisions were repealed in 1921 as they were viewed to be in conflict with the First Amendment.
The Smith Act of 1940 is still on the books and a group of Nazi sympathizers were tried for sedition under its provisions in 1944. That affair ended in a mistrial. The Smith Act states that it is against the law to:
Even with this straightforward provision and the bitter war against the Nazis still in progress in 1944, we were unable to get a conviction against their sympathizers here at home. That surprised me. I had wrongly assumed that we had stronger and more vigorously enforced laws against sedition during that conflict.
We were however, able to obtain convictions for actual treason against Mildred Gillars (aka “Axis Sally”) and Robert Best. Their offenses were propaganda broadcasts for the Nazis. Gillars was sentenced to 10-30 years in prison and Best to life in prison. Even though their offense was only “speech,” they did it in direct consort with our wartime enemy. Apparently, that is what made the difference between mere sedition and treason. It appears that it is next to impossible to convict anyone of sedition and extremely difficult to convict anyone of treason, unless they actually commit a destructive act.
Obviously the current situation with the Islamic Saudi Academy does not rise to the level of offense in any of the above precedents. As much as I would like to see them shut down, my proposal of limiting their “political speech” is not the correct approach. Yet, I still believe that my thoughts are correct regarding their use of religion as a cover for unconstitutional political aims.
Your last paragraph pretty well sums up the current situation, especially the last two sentences on the press and Obama.
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#31 Thanks for your research Michael. Nicely stated.
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