The canon
I knew John Frame was busy writing a book called Doctrine of the Word of God, so I thought he might be able to help me with my canon problem (see yesterday’s post). It was vexing me: How do we know for sure that we have the right Scripture canon? What unknown oddities or political shenanigans, now shrouded in the mists of history, may have coughed up the present fixed compendium of books?
Frame sent me Chapter 22 of the not-yet-published book. He did not approach the subject at all as I had expected. I was hunkering down for an exhaustive survey of the history of theological opinion on the subject of canon, a debate addressing every detail of every scholarly debunking of the certainty of our 66-book authority. I expected Frame to say, with all the other theologians on the block, that this was a formidably difficult task.
Instead, he said that while such a ponderous inductive study certainly yields interesting facts, he is “inclined to think that such a study is unfruitful. . . . [I]nductive study alone is unlikely to show us with certainty which books God has given to the church.” Frame’s plan was rather “to present the teachings of Scripture itself relevant to the doctrine of the word of God, and now relevant to the specific question of canonicity.”
Can you do that! Can you let the Scripture speak for itself about a matter in which we are examining the Scripture? I mean, who is going to evaluate the claims of Scripture? Don’t we need an outside arbiter of truth? (Whoa! An outside arbiter of truth? Listen to what we’re saying!) Frame writes:
“The problem with much current literature on the canon is that it does not take account of God’s expressed intentions [He is referring to God’s pervasively passionate intention to speak personally to his church throughout history.] It seeks, rather, through autonomous reasoning . . . to determine if any first century books deserve canonical status, and using that method it arrives at conclusions that are uncertain at best. But once we understand God’s use of a canon from the time of Moses, we just approach our present problem with a presupposition: that God will not let his people walk in darkness, that he will provide for us the words we need to have, within our reach.”
How was the canon’s final form congealed, when the dust settled? Frame answers this with statements such as these:
“What happened? Jesus’ sheep heard his voice (John 10:27). . . . How can we be sure that the voice is God? . . . [O]ur assurance is supernatural. When God speaks, he at the same time assures us that he is speaking. . . .”
This kind of writing will never fly at a conference of modern secular biblical theologians. What I am wondering is if it will even fly at a conference of self-styled orthodox theologians, who may have become just a little too eager to be loved by their Enlightenment colleagues than is good for them.
Frame knows a lot of stuff. He could show off if he wanted. But he ends up satisfying me on the question of canon, not by dashing mano a mano against every over-educated seminary skeptic to come down the pike, but by laying out the internal evidences of the Bible, and by presuppositional biblical reasoning. It is reasoning in a circle—as all reasoning is. The only difference is that, as Frame knows, we Christians have the better circle.
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back to top76 Comments to “The canon”
Circular reasoning.
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God took the initiative and revealed Himself to mankind. The best way to approach the canon is to understand the character of God Himself.
It is He who sustains and preserves His Word, from the barrage of doubt and denial begun by Satan when he assailed Eve’s trust with “Hath God really said…” in Genesis 3 to the skeptics and intellectuals of our day.
“The Word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8).
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One of the pastors at my church put it this way. “The church does not make the canon, the canon makes the church.” (He might have been quoting someone else, can’t remember).
If you read say, the Gospel of Mark, and then read one of the gnostic gospels, you can tell the difference. God’s inspired word resonates with the Holy Spirit living inside the believer.
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Andree concludes: It is reasoning in a circle—as all reasoning is.
No Andree, all reasoning is not circular. Valid reasoning is linear. Valid reasoning begins with the available evidence and draws a conclusion from it. The conclusion rests on the evidence.
In circular reasoning, the conclusion rests on an assumption which can be true only if the conclusion is also true. It is a guess and a hope wearing reason’s clothes.
It is arguments like this one that make skeptics laugh at us and consider themselves superior. I don’t question your sincerity; I do question your grasp of elementary logic.
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The assumption of reasoning is that logic is true and provides true results. But one cannot attempt to prove logic to be true without assuming first that it is true. Can anyone show us how to prove the truthfullness of logic without using logic? Reasoning itself is an unprovable discipline.
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Francis Schaeffer said something like: The next great debate will be about how we know and how we know we know. We are certainly in the middle of that debate.
What did the readers of Paul’s original letters think of them? Did they think of them as Canon? (though they didn’t use the specific term)
We have evidence: “And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.” 1Thess 2:13
Is there evidence of the uniqueness of the Bible text? Yes, linguistic, historical, archaeological, anecdotal, abounding. But in the final analysis it is God’s awesome mind and heart communicating with the mind and heart He created in us. And in the same way that human children can be stubborn, willful, and blind to their parents communication, we can be blind to God’s communication to us. And, lots of really smart children don’t communicate with their parents.
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This reminds me of the current pastor-ette in my old hometown church when I last visited. She read a section of an epistle in a sermon, then said, “Of course, Paul didn’t know he was writing scripture.” The very next verse (which she didn’t read) stated that “All scripture is inspired by God… .”
Years ago I was asked to teach a class on canonicity. After several hundred hours research I simply presented the Word of God as “that which is preeminent, persuasive and productive.” Scary as it may be, we can forget about what councils of mostly godless, argumentative men in a power struggle decided centuries ago and examine each book indivudlaly and the current canon du jour ourselves to see if they are “up to standards”.
That’s primarily the reason I studied Greek and Hebrew in Europe and am now teaching Greek and Hebrew to all believers that are willing. Here’s a secret, though: You could study the Bible in any foreign language, carefully comparing it to English and looking up what the words mean and get the same result. “Careful” reading of the Bible exposes the qualities that it possesses and makes it easy to decide for yourselves.
If readers do not “believe that God ‘is’ and God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him”, then many will conclude that the Bible is just words. But those who wish to hear from God will in fact hear Him. And most of those will come away more confident than ever that we have a reliable canon in the 66 books commonly called the Bible.
But this is just my opinion.
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Steve,
Your post in this thread is exactly what I’ve been referring to for so long about your “Enlightenment” epistemological assumptions. ODannyboy articulated your problem most succinctly.
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CaptainFaris,
From the first thread on the canon.
I guess I’m still confused because I don’t know which comment by which person you’re suggesting implied that. But I would also dispute the idea that people aren’t converted on the basis of their observation of the changed lives of others. The Scriptures indicate that our lives should be a witness to the faith, and the church grows in leaps and bounds because of the witness of believers with their lives. Obviously it’s not a statistical game, though. In fact, I think that the life of one godly Christian in the midst of thousands of worldly ones can persuade an unbeliever of the truth of the faith.
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Well Ree, what should I replace it with? And don’t tell me to just “believe God,” because before I can do that I have to have some way to tell genuine words of God from false ones.
How to do that?
What ODannyBoy articulated is more post-modernism than anything. If we follow that train of thought, then we could know nothing about anything and we could just argue endlessly that our beliefs about what is true are the right ones because we believe them.
Which is what a lot of the debates around religion devolve into anyway. So thanks, but I’ll stick with my “Enlightenment assumptions” so that I can actually offer reasons for believing what I do.
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“What ODannyBoy articulated is more post-modernism than anything. If we follow that train of thought, then we could know nothing about anything and we could just argue endlessly that our beliefs about what is true are the right ones because we believe them.”
It’s not post modernism. It’s simply consistent with reformed theology. Anything real and true must come from God, it cannot come from man. The only one who can know anything, has to know everything…or must know the one who knows everything. (Actually, I would assert that we can know truth because God infiltrates our world with it. We just cannot “know” that we know truth. LOL.)
This doesn’t mean that logic is not true. It just means we can only assume it to be true…which I do. However, logic is only as good as its assumptions or the information with which it has to work. And the biggest assumption of logic is that it can be used to discover truth.
Does one know the Truth because one is intelligent and logical, or does one know he Truth because he has been regenerated “from above.” Jn. 3:3.
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Of course, I cannot prove a word I’ve written.
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#9 Ree,
Oh, sorry. It was the blog itself that brought up the idea that the Bible must be reliable since it had made such an impact on a certain individual.
And I agree with your arguments as stated all along. Yes, many or most conversions are triggered by someone first seeing something in the testimony of a believer they come in contact with. We’re pondering, however, how believers can have confidence in the canon in these threads. That’s another story.
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#12 “can’t prove a word”…
That’s a key point in debates about truth. Our own ability or inability to prove something we recognize (rightly or wrongly) as truth is not evidence of whether or not something is true.
But your allusion to “reformed” theology interested me. I see “logic” and various deductions, inductions and proofs as being the foundation for reformed theology. I should add that’s why I don’t worry about it–but I still enjoy fellowship with most reformed individuals. But elsewhere in digital land I recently asserted that Calvin’s theology was an inversion of Manichaeism and still a version of dualism. I thought I should appologize to a Calvinist somewhere so I’ll do that here. (g)
And I’m thinking that we aren’t getting through to the Steve’s of the world in a clear way. He has valid questions but these shoot from the hip threads aren’t really engaging them, I fear. (Hi, Steve.)
Phil
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Please don’t call me a Calvinist…I’m more of a Hobbs.
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I gotta learn to spell better.
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Andree the book you are referring to “Doctrine of the Word of God” by John Frame was published six years ago (2002)-
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I wonder if God could swear by someone greater than Himself? For instance, does the Uncreated have to appeal to creation in order to substantiate Himself? Do we?
This is why the conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary to actually believe the canon is the canon. We can’t appeal to things lesser than God in order to establish what God’s Word is. Nevertheless none of this negates the evidences we do find in creation.
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CORRECTION:
Post – 17 Should read, “was published seven years ago (2002)”-
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Captain Faris: And I’m thinking that we aren’t getting through to the Steve’s of the world in a clear way. He has valid questions but these shoot from the hip threads aren’t really engaging them, I fear. (Hi, Steve.)
Hi Cap’n!
On this particular issue, I don’t really have questions. I think the canon is pretty well chosen and have no problem accepting it.
But I do note that there’s never been unanimity about it, even early on. The early Church fathers debated some books hotly, and to so-called “catholic epistles” (the ones not written by Paul) were either in or out at various times during the first few centuries. And even some scholars who argued that they should stay in were iffy on it. Eusebius called them “disputed texts.”
Of course the Protestants removed the apocrypha; Luther called James “the straw epistle” for its emphasis on good works, and didn’t like Hebrews, Jude or Revelation much either — although he did leave them in the canon.
So while I think God speaks to me through all the scriptures, I don’t think it’s a good answer to the question to just say “God said so.” Given that many devout men have had sharp disagreements about it, that answer suggests that God was either not speaking clearly to all of them.
The truth is that the selection process was done by human beings who, while guided by the Spirit, also applied reason and theological doctrine in the course of making their decisions. Asserting that God just clearly told them what to include and that there was never any doubt about it is simply mistaken.
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Steve,
Right; I don’t think the others here would assert that God told the councils what to do, either. My answer, elsewhere, puts each of us in the driving seat to make that decision for ourselves–or to trust a friend or pastor to advise us. However, I admit that my “answer” is calculated; I wish to enourage all to read and think about the scriptures using all the talent for critical thinking that they can muster.
I have another agenda. I don’t think we as individuals always have enough confidence in the truth of scripture and don’t grasp the power that it contains. So agreeing with a canon or even a doctrine usually viewed as orthodox is kind of wimpy if you haven’t wrestled with the text and with putting that text into action personally.
But, contrary to what you seem to suggest, I am confident that the difference between the commonly recognized 66 books and any other contenders is obvious–after one has taken a few years to investigate.
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Returning to Andrée Seu’s original question: “Can we do that? Can we let scripture speak for itself?”
That is exactly what the councils did to make their decisions. AFTER they made the decision they imposed it by the sword, so to speak. Which is why I reject all of the councils and hold them in contempt. I’m sure their ghosts are quaking in their boots at my condemnation.
Hmmm. I’m not sure my satirical train of thought is clear. Please disregard this post.
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SteveG #20
Very well said. I agree entirely.
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I am dyslexic. I thought this thread had something to do with someone being shot out of a cannon. I will have to rethink everything I thought about this post and the accompanying comments.
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Captain Faris – 21
I am an Evangelical Believer, we are affiliated with a Bible Believing church ,….. what church or denomination are you affliated with?
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When did Jesus mention the Bible, or explain what would be in the canon?
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Steve,
I don’t know what you mean by “of course the Protestants removed the apocrypha,” but I suspect you mean exactly what Roman Catholics mean. Removed it in what sense?
You might want to read Luther’s View of the Canon of Scripture for a much deeper and truer understanding of the canon at the time of the Protestant Reformation and of Luther’s view. It just isn’t what RCs say it is.
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And to #10,
If you’re talking about separating the “genuine words” from the “false ones,” within the Christian Scriptures, my response is that you don’t. We trust in the integrity of God and recognize that He’s always spoken collectively to His people and we accept the Scriptures as we’ve received them. But if you’re talking about how to recognize whether God speaks through the Q’uran, the Book of Mormon, or the Vedas, then you do so through the message. The confirmation of the Bible as the Word of God to any given person is not done by some simple falsifiable scientific test. The Spirit convicts us by revealing both our desperate condition and the goodness of God through them. But as we grow in understanding, it becomes more and more apparent that interpreting reality through the lens of Scripture is the only way reality is intelligible. All truth claims, wherever one finds them, can be evaluated on both their internal and external consistency. Externally, with our basic unassailable presuppositions from which we reason, and internaly, with their own claims about reality.
Postmodernism is just the logical conclusion of modernism. It correctly identifies the problem with modernist assumptions, but it still fails to acknowledge the God by whom knowledge is made possible. That’s why it subverts knowledge instead of discovering it. It’s the blatant embodiment of the truth that without God, man will ever by “always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.”
Christianity says that the knowledge of God is the beginning of wisdom and understanding. Postmodernism says that man is inherently incapable of knowing anything. So the difference between postmodern epistemology and Christian epistemology is that Christian epistemology acknowledges that presupposing the existence of a Being with all the attributes the Bible ascribes to the triune God is the only way to make sense of reality. And starting with that truth, Scripture reveals truths about God and His relationship to us that are unknowable apart from special revelation. We can’t know the gospel without Scripture, but we can certainly know from natural revelation that we’re our condition is utterly hopeless without God’s gracious intervention to save us. Scripture reveals to us the history of God’s dealings with man and shows us how we can be saved to know God.
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Ree: I don’t know what you mean by “of course the Protestants removed the apocrypha,” but I suspect you mean exactly what Roman Catholics mean. Removed it in what sense?
I only mean that devout men honestly trying to decide correctly were disagreeing over parts of the canon for centuries after Christ, and even as late as Luther’s time another thousand years later, it was still subject to change and dispute.
My only point here is that the content of the canon was not immediately obvious and without controversy, although many Bible-believers today seem to think it was.
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And by the way, you’ve misdiagnosed me to some extent. I believe in God, and Christ, because of Spirit-given faith. My announcement of a few months ago about my ‘reversion’ was not due to any external evidences, but to my giving up my resistance to the pull I’d been feeling for some years.
But that doesn’t require me to give up thinking, so I am not about to stop asking questions to see if specific things that some, but not all, Christians believe are tenable.
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Re #26
The same. I attended WCBS in Portland in the 70’s. Plymouth Brethren in VA and England for a while until they died as a movement. Now helping plant a non-denominational church and teaching Greek and Hebrew.
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Steve,
We may not be in disagreement on this, although there might be some differences under the surface of your statement. Most of the canon was never in dispute in the church. Only blatant heretics like Marcion (whose doctrine of God and view of the canon seem to me to be fairly consistent with yours) and the Gnostics, had substantial differences over the canon. The disputes among the orthodox church were only over a few books, and these disputes amounted to nothing in regard to doctrine. And as I alluded to earlier, even the word canon, itself, does not always refer to the same thing. The church father and translator of the Latin Vulgate version, Jerome, articulated the concept of canonical, as Protestants use it, when he spoke of a few apocryphal books this way,
“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” – Jerome (Prefaces to the Books of the Vulgate Version of the Old Testament, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs).
But it was also common to speak of “canonical” as those books that were used in the liturgy. In this sense, those books that were so used (such as the ones mentioned by Jerome above and others), but were not suitable for settling doctrine are those that RCs refer to as deuterocanonical. By using different terminology, even they acknowledge a historical distinction between these books and the rest. But since they have a different rule of faith that ultimately boils down to sola ecclesia, the distinction isn’t that important to them. The apologists just bring up issues of the canon to bolster their sophist arguments. (And this is an indictment against a certain, very common kind of RC apologist, not against RCs in general.)
I understand all this, but what I’m always talking about is the “Enlightenment” distinction you make between the intellectual knowledge we can gain through logic and knowledge about God.
And if you think that I’ve “given up on thinking, then I don’t really understand why you continue to converse with me about these things. And if you don’t believe that I have, then perhaps you should at least consider the possibility that there might actually be something to my challenges to your assumed epistemology.
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Captain Faris – 32
Thanks for replying, after reading some of your posts I was curious.
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Ree,
I follow your exchanges with SteveG here and on other threads with interest. Can you suggest any book or other resources to help explain your view of epistemology?
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Hi Pauline,
I’m convinced by the arguments of the presuppositionalists that the existence of the triune God is a necessary prerequisite for reason, and that even those who don’t explicitly acknowledge God, implicitly presuppose Him in their own reasoning processes. I was first exposed to presuppositionalist arguments through Greg Bahnsen–especially his book, Always Ready. But it seems to me that C.S. Lewis, although not a presuppositionalist himself, also touches on presuppositional defenses for the faith.
Pastor Douglas Wilson also defends the truth of God presuppositionally in his three responses to the three attacks by prominent atheists, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens. His responses used be available in installments on his blog, but once they were published, he took them down.
John Frame, whom Andree Seu mentions in this post, is also a presuppositionalist, I believe, but I haven’t read him.
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Of course, you don’t stop thinking, SteveG — what is the greatest commandment? to love God with all your mind…, etc.
I have several Bibles with the Apocrypha in the middle. Basically, it’s more history.
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Hi Pauline and Ree,
Pauline, in addition to Ree’s recommendations, a number of good websites discuss and explain presuppositional apologetics. To me, the topic really comes to life in a discussion format; here are a few links I find entertaining, enlightening, and edifying:
Here’s a collection of logs from chat room discussions. Each is good, but a few of particular interest are these(pardon the cutesy titles–I didn’t write them):
• AINT – argument on the insufficiency of the non-transcendent
• supremacy of Christian theism
• a rebuttal of naturalistic fundamentalism – part one and part two
Also, a pretty good discussion took place over here. Watch for Jim Hilston’s contributions. Disclaimer: This site espouses the Open Theism heresy, but Hilston is no proponent of it, as his posts elsewhere at that site attest…although he holds to some strange version of dispensationalism, but I digress.
Related to the current thread, Hilston also demonstrates the ultimate circularity of any epistemology here and here.
Ree, what’s your stance on Doug Wilson’s New Perspective views?
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Ree: Presupposition is fine as long as you’re in conversation with people who share the same presuppositions.
How do you make your case to people who don’t?
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#38 SteveG
You realize the irony of your statement?
It would strike me as a little odd that a religion of faith should try and rest it head on evidential argumentation.
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Mike: The whole field of apologetics is premised on the idea that the faith can be defended and argued by evidence, for the purpose of answering critics and persuading skpetics. So no, I don’t see any particular irony.
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Hi SteveG,
The field of apologetics is not solely premised on evidence; in fact, it can’t ultimately be “premised” on evidence at all. It’s one’s presuppositions that frame and shape her interpretation of evidence. The theist and atheist look at the same body of evidence; it’s their presuppositions that result in their different conclusions. The question is, who’s presuppositions are warranted?
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Anyone know how to get the moderator to move on a submitted post? I supplied some links a few hours ago and I wonder how long before they’re allowed in. They’re harmless.
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“The whole field of apologetics is premised on the idea that the faith can be defended and argued by evidence….”
And this is the “presupposition” of apologetics.
Faith can be defended and argued by evidence. However, as the Scriptures point out in Hebrews 11:1, faith is itself evidence; it is substantial. This is because faith is not generated by a person responding to arguments and evidence. Faith is a gift, given by God and that is what makes it evidence “of things unseen.” The fact that someone has faith in Jesus is evidence that Jesus is real. (Really, who in his right mind can believe that Jesus came back to life unless God has enabled him to do so…and, yes, I do believe their is good evidence for believing it.)
That does not mean apologetics is useless because God makes us, his followers, part of his process of drawing people to himself. Apologetics is a relational process meant to build up the body of Christ. But unless God himself is doing the apologetics in someone’s heart, it will be fruitless.
Take Nicodemus in John 3:1-3 as an example. I grew up thinking that Jesus was making an effort to get Nick to understand that he needed to be born again. He needed to respond to the evidence and believe. Now, I see it as being exactly the opposite. Jesus is playfully helping Nick to understand that something has already happened to him.
Nick comes to him saying that Jesus must be from God since he’s doing these miracles. Jesus (smiling IMHO) tells Nick that he must be born “anothen” (greek for again or from above) to “eido” (see, perceive or recognize) the kingdom of God. In essence, Jesus is telling Nick that since he recognizes that Jesus is from God, he must have necessarily have already been “born again.” Otherwise, he would not perceive that Jesus is “from God.” Jesus’ apologetic here is being used to help someone along who has come to faith, but just does not yet know it.
And that is, again IMHO, how we should see apolgetics. As a tool for building up those who are coming or have come to faith. Of course, we don’t know until after the fact who has faith and who doesn’t so we cast our nets far and wide. Then we see what we’ve caught. Apologetic is useless unless God is doing the work in the heart.
(As an aside, when you get 10 Greek scholars together you get 50 different opinions. LOL.)
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I need an editing tool so I can correct my spelling. My brain flies on ahead of my fingers.
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ODannyBoy,
You’re right that God provides evidence for belief and that He enables the believer to rightly interpret the evidence, but the false assumption of the modernist is that man can take a position of neutrality toward God and that he can examine evidence for truth from this position of neutrality. His understanding of “facts” and of “proof” are colored by this false notion of neutrality.
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. . faith is not generated by a person responding to arguments and evidence. Faith is a gift, given by God and that is what makes it evidence “of things unseen.” The fact that someone has faith in Jesus is evidence that Jesus is real.
STEVE G sounds like the postmodernist on this thread, and if he’s not more careful, he’ll get the Moth Prize for Corruption of Religion.
Steve seems to be saying that, without the gift of faith, a person can’t believe something he or she cannot understand. The gift of faith is supernatural, because faith cannot be explained by evidence and reason. Where there’s faith, there’s a faith-giver.
I really like Steve’s argument that faith is independent, self-standing evidence of the truth of what it affirms. Unfortunately, this departs from the traditional understanding of faith. There are two problems with Steve’s depiction of faith as “substance.” The first is that faith is a gift to the intellect. The result of faith is a mind that finally understands the evidence and the reason for church teachings. Secondly, and more importantly, faith doesn’t “trick” the will into assenting to something that’s impossible. Rather, it gives the intellect light, and the will to use it. Faith isn’t the aphrodisiac of the soul’s devotion. The heathen enjoy that. Rather, faith shines a light on things that are reasonable. The heathen also exercise this virtue, to a lesser extent.
Steve implies that belief despite reason is evidence for the supernatural origin of faith. He suggests that faith is both improbable and independent of reason. The church teaches they are mutually indispensable. Faith is a virtue, not a miracle. The Christian receives faith in order to understand. Without understanding, faith is superstition. Faith becomes the substance of things not seen by illuminating them in the darkness this side of the angels. But faith is a gift to the understanding, not to clairvoyance.
I don’t believe any of it, but have to admit that it’s very good. It’s as subtle and powerful as the theory of relativity (which starts from the supposition that the laws of physics are the same everywhere). I certainly would have fallen for it in the 13th and 14th centuries.
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Scroop: Huh?
I think you may be talking about ODannyBoy. He was the one who spoke of “substance.”
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Apologies.
That shoe should be tossed.
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For those of us who believe the Bible we do have some internal help.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son
The canon is closed with Jesus. To be a NT writer we need first hand evidence. Luke gets off because he recorded what the first hand witness said and there was plenty of chance for them to review what he wrote. Paul is also somewhat of an exception but was indeed an eye witness to the resurrected Christ. This notion is also mentioned in Acts 1.
Acts 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”
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#46
Scroop, you seem to limit the definition of faith to “belief” when it is much more. While it includes belief, the definition of faith is more relational. It’s main characteristic is “trust”…the ability to have confidence in and reliance upon a person, in this case God. To say I have faith in my wife does not mean I believe she exists. It means I trust her. Of course, faith in another human does not come about in the same way as faith in God.
Now, you have put words in my mouth…or I simply have been unclear. You describe me as thinking or implying that “the gift of faith is supernatural, because faith cannot be explained by evidence and reason.” In actuality, I would say that the gift of faith (the ability to believe, trust in and rely upon God) is supernatural because it cannot be “obtained” by reasoning. One, using evidence and reason, should come to the point of belief that God exists, as Paul points out in Romans. But that is merely an assent to evidence, not faith. Satan believes the evidential truth about God. Mere acceptance of “facts” is not faith. (I would assume none of this is new to you, but I do want to try and be clear since I’m relatively new to responding here. I would rather not have you infer what I’m saying.)
While faith is “a gift to the intellect,” is not by any means limited to that. It is true that one of the results of faith “is a mind that finally understands the evidence” or at least some of the evidence, to some extent. But one does not trust or have confidence in God because of evidence or reason. One can only come to that part of faith when God enlivens his whole being with a new relationship. This is true now, in the 13th century as well as in the 1st (when there was no NT canon.)
To understand the Bible, one needs to understand the culture from which it came. The Bible was written in a culture of relationship and cannot be interpreted by logic and reason alone. A good read on this is Foreign to Familiar: A Guide to Understanding Hot – And Cold – Climate Cultures by Sarah A. Lanier.
I hope I spelled everything right.
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What a revoltin’ development. In the couple days since I posted the 1st set of links in #36, the domain expired. I’ll link to Google’s cache when I can. The last 3 links in that post still work, though. Kinda late; oh well.
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“Ree: Presupposition is fine as long as you’re in conversation with people who share the same presuppositions.
How do you make your case to people who don’t?”
By challenging them on the basis of their own presuppositions. In most cases we are unaware of our own presuppositions. They seem so commonsensical to us. And yet the prevailing modern materialist preconception, and its corrollary empiricist and historical progressivist preunderstandings rest on shakier ground than we realize. Once we provisionally accept the reasonableness of another set of presuppositions and allow ourselves to reason from that starting point, we can honestly engage the apologetic arguments. “Come let us reason together, and “Taste and see that the Lord is good
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Danny,
Trust may help switch on the will to receive faith in that which reason previously couldn’t understand. Once you believe, however, the illuminated intellect takes over. The proper object of faith is church teaching — the Holy Trinity and so forth. The object of faith isn’t superstition. The Faith (noun) is reasonable. The result of faith (verb) is an angelic doctor of the church who can ride a bike without training wheels, and switch to all-electric drive like a hybrid vehicle!
Satan’s lack of faith isn’t a defect . . in a supernatural being. His problem is disobedience. The angels lack faith, too. Both the devil and the angels enjoy direct access to the truth. Faith is a human virtue which the supernaturals can’t experience.
You see, Danny, I took a course in medieval culture & learning.
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54
I thought I detected sarcasm in your first post, but wasn’t sure. Thanks for the clarification.
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No problem, Danny. Sarcasm is a crutch for the writer rather than an aid to the reader, so I can’t expect you to like it, or to read my next post. If you’re still reading, I think I agree with you more than may seem. However, unlike you, I think that faith is a natural attribute of humans, and unbelief is the real “gift” to understanding.
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Scroop Moth,
You took a course, huh? Well then, you’ve got it all figured out. There’s no disputing with you. LOL
You really believe that you can understand medieval thought from “taking a course.” The Medievals didn’t have one single strand of thought, and historians study for years and years understanding the different intellectual strands of thought within the medieval church. But even if you did have such thorough knowledge, the medieval world wasn’t the beginning and the end of Biblical understanding.
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And to your next post, “faith” is a prerequisite for functioning–everyone has it. It’s right faith that’s a gift, because man’s natural condition is rebellion.
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“It was vexing me: How do we know for sure that we have the right Scripture canon?”
You can’t ’cause there’s no such thing. All scriptures are man-written and man-selected.
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“faith” is a prerequisite for functioning–everyone has it. It’s right faith that’s a gift, because man’s natural condition is rebellion.
“Right” faith should consist of believing things that are likely to be true, rather than “believin’ what you know ain’t true.” (i.e. the Bible!) And then you go tellin’ all the honest people that they’re in “rebellion.” What nonsense!
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Spinoza uses the terms “should”, “likely” and “nonsense” and is lost entirely to the irony of it.
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Ree: man’s natural condition is rebellion.
Not according to Genesis 1-3.
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SteveG,
And then Adam fell. You sound like a Pelagian.
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No I don’t. Pelagians believed that Adam’s sin didn’t affect human nature. I am pointing out that man’s “natural condition” is as he was created to be. Sin is real and inescapable, but it is not part of the essential nature of man, no more than cancer is.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I think the Orthodox are on the right track with their theology of ancestral sin, contrasted to Western (Augustinian) doctrine of original sin. The key difference: “… the doctrine of ancestral sin naturally leads to a focus on human death and Divine compassion as the inheritance from Adam, while the doctrine of original sin shifts the center of attention to human guilt and Divine wrath.”
That is not a heresy; it was the view of the Church prior to Augustine, and still is the view of the Eastern Church.
This paper discusses the difference in some detail. Another quote:
The Eastern Church, unlike its Western counterpart, never speaks of guilt being passed from Adam and Eve to their progeny, as did Augustine. Instead, it is posited that each person bears the guilt of his or her own sin. The question becomes, “What then is the inheritance of humanity from Adam and Eve if not guilt?” The Orthodox Fathers answer as one: death. …. It is not guilt that is passed on, for the Orthodox Fathers; it is a condition, a disease.
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SteveG,
But what would be your intent in equivocating on the word nature? I’m obviously referring to man’s sinful nature–the post-fallen nature as referred to in various verses such as Romans 8:9. I’m sure you understood that when you read it.
And I know that the Eastern church was never big on Augustine’s exegesis, but I don’t see how their view has any bearing on my point.
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Ree: What I am objecting to is the phrase “natural condition.” Sin is not natural. I think that is pretty much the whole point of the Gospel.
It may seem like a small point, but I think to say it’s human nature to rebel is different than saying that rebellion is the natural condition. And I brought up Augustine and the Orthodox because I think the Augustinian view, which pervades most of historic Protestantism as well as the RC, would be that mankind is inherently sinful, which is what I think “natural condition” implies. The Eastern view is that man is inevitably affected by sin, which corrupts the natural condition, rather than becomes the natural condition — the natural condition, and the state to which Christ’s atoning work restores us, is the imago dei.
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SteveG, just wanted to say thanks for posting the link in #64. I have been discovering the truths presented therein recently and appreciate learning more about our human nature, the nature of sin, and God’s remedy.
I loved especially this quote: “In the crucified Christ forgiveness is offered and life is given. For humanity it is no longer a matter of fearing judgment or of meriting salvation, but of welcoming love in trust and humility.”
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Thanks for commenting, EndyBlue. It is enlightening to me, as this view more closely accords with my own sense of what makes sense … it’s good to learn that it’s rooted in good, sound historical doctrine, even if it’s a less common view in the Western hemisphere.
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Amen to that. I also quoted the paper you linked in Tony’s post of yesterday on sin. It’s such a paradigm shift, but a welcome one!
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Steve,
Your response to Endyblue is consistent with your whole manner of thinking. You’re drawn to the Eastern view because it “more closely accords with [your] own sense of what makes sense,” rather as a result of careful Scriptural exegesis.
The Scriptures are clear that we are by nature objects of wrath, that we’re sinful right from conception, that we sin because of our nature, etc. But that “doesn’t make sense” to you, so you reject it in favor of another view. You appeal to EO teaching to give some authority to your view, but when you hold views that are contrary to all of Scripture and history, both East and West, that’s okay too, because God has given us greater enlightenment that He did to the apostles, according to you. There are no grounds for proving truth with you because you have no firm standard of any kind. Whatever sits right with you is what you believe–with seemingly no openness to “the renewing of your mind,” based on God’s explicit revelation.
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We’re all “drawn to the [whatever] view because it “more closely accords with [our] own sense of what makes sense.” I’ve studied under a myriad of professors of greek, hebrew,systematic theology, apologetics, etc.,etc., etc. [In short, I've taken lots of courses. LOL.]Most of them loved the Lord and served him well but disagreed on vast numbers of things such as are being discussed here. They all claimed accurate exegesis. And most of them admitted that it was very likely they were doing eisogesis at least some of the time.
Personally, I agree with Barth on the most important theological statement he could make. Fits in well with Matt. 18:3.
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Ree, I don’t think the Scriptures on these things are as “clear” as you propose. I see as I read Scripture that sin is death-producing, but not guilt-producing. I don’t see that we need someone to take our punishment, but rather to provide our healing, our deliverance from death (which Jesus did on the cross).
My best “argument” as it were for this line of thinking is the story of the prodigal son in Luke. This is an entire picture of us, our life, our sin and our need for mercy and forgiveness. It’s the best Scriptural picture of sin and salvation that God has provided, in my opinion.
And no where in this parable that Jesus told do I see the idea of sin being there from conception, that God has a wrathful approach to our sin (or that we’re “by nature objects of wrath”), or that someone needs to be punished to appease this wrathful God and to make all things good again.
I do see two brothers, one who started looking self-ward and who started making some bad choices; I see the results of those choices (the muck and the mire); I see him opening his eyes to the point he’s gotten to, and realizing the best place to be is back with his father; I see his humility in returning; I see that because of his father’s true LOVE, the father comes running to him as the son makes his way back; and I see a party thrown as a result. Where in that is the father’s wrath? Where does it show the need for punishment?
SteveG’s choice of words about it “making sense to him” aren’t so off the wall, really. We all do this to a degree; we read the Word and we move on what “makes sense” to us (another way to say it might be “what God spoke to my heart”). Apparently the things you describe above (sin from conception, us being objects of God’s wrath, etc.) make sense to you even though Scripture doesn’t clearly spell them out those ways. Yes, you can find some verses that might be able to be read that way — but they might be able to be read another way too. And that’s why I put the Prodigal Son story above; because when it comes to sin/forgiveness/salvation, this is a complete picture of these very things. It’s not verses and chunks pulled from here and there that might be able to be put together to speak about these things.
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Ree: So the Orthdoox, who probably have the greatest claim to apostolic succession in all of Christendom, whose doctrines originated as close to the apostolic age as it’s possible to get, are a bunch of heretics because they don’t agree with you?
Try looking in a mirror before you lecture me on how I’m wrong. You’re doing exactly what you accuse me of, and I’m actually not.
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Ree: The Scriptures are clear that we are by nature objects of wrath
You might try reading the entire arc of Paul’s argument in the passage from Romans you’re referencing here. Read en toto, it does not end up making the point you’re trying to use it for here. It ends with Paul’s declaration that while we’re all sinners (and he speaks in turn of pagans, Jews and Christians to hammer that home) and that God could very justifiably see us as objects of wrath, He chose instead to die for us to free us to salvation.
Tell you what: I think we should re-set our interactions and start from the floor. You’ve encountered me as I’ve been recovering a faith I’d shelved for many, many years, and I am admittedly stumbling toward clarity. I have said some things without fully thinking them through and don’t wish to be held to, and other things that while I stand by, I don’t accept your diagnosis of my route to getting to them.
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And Ree, we’ve been having discussions piecemeal. Even my reforming faith has not come through as well as I’d like in our exchanges.
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Steve,
I didn’t say anything about EOs being “a bunch of heretics.” I questioned the legitimacy of you claiming them for your authority when it’s convenient while rejecting their authority in other matters that don’t agree with you.
If I were discussing the issue with an EO, I would challenge them on different grounds.
In regard to Paul’s argument, his doesn’t say that God could see us as objects of wrath, but that apart from Christ, we are objects of wrath. In Christ, we’re given a new nature.
In regard to your faith, my impression is that you don’t understand the nature of my challenges to you and that you think I’m accusing you of things that I’m not. Also, I know that your faith is in the process of being formed, but I think that’s a good time to challenge you. If you don’t like it, then perhaps you shouldn’t be participating in these kinds of discussions. I’m not encouraging you to stop participating, but if you do, you should expect your feet to be held to fire. And you’re welcome to do the same to me.
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