Reasoning in a circle
As I was saying Friday, all reasoning is in a circle. All reasoning is circular—no exception—at the fundamental level.
I am not talking about common logical fallacies people commit, such as begging the question, or tautologies, or other ways of assuming the very conclusion one is trying to prove: “Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania because it’s not in Michigan.” “The use of cell phones while driving can’t be wrong because it’s legal.” “God does not exist because the universe evolved from nothing.”
Everyone has a final reference point that he relates all stray “facts” to. At the end of that enjoyable philosophical discussion at Starbucks, one always returns to his starting point (unless God breaks into the circle with grace to open his eyes). If you begin with the presupposition that there is no God, or that He is not knowable, then everything you see and hear and read will confirm your presupposition. That is reasoning in a circle. No miracle will persuade you, as Abraham told the rich man in hell who begged for a miracle as proof (Luke 16). “Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed” (verse 26). This is not only a chasm of space and time but of epistemology.
My college boyfriend said to me, when I showed incipient interest in Christianity, “I don’t believe in Christianity because men don’t rise from the dead.” If Talero had been a C student, I would have thought he really didn’t see the silliness of that argument. But he was the smartest kid on campus, so I can’t help but think that he himself was aware of the irony of his statement, and said it just to get my goat.
John Frame writes in The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God:
“No system can avoid circularity, because all systems (as we have seen)—non-Christian as well as Christian—are based on presuppositions that control their epistemologies, argumentation, and use of evidence. Thus a rationalist can prove the primacy of reason only by using a rational argument. An empiricist can prove the primacy of sense-experience only by some kind of appeal to sense-experience. A Muslim can prove the primacy of the Koran only by appealing to the Koran. But if all systems are circular in that way, then such circularity can hardly be urged against Christianity. The critic will inevitably be just as ‘guilty’ of circularity as the Christian is. . . .”
Are we all hopelessly lost in our respective “circles” then, the Muslim and the Rationalist and the Empiricist and the Christian? No, the God of Truth reveals Himself to the one who comes to Him in repentance and submission and faith. If that seems backwards to you, your quarrel is with God. In my experience, the certainties of His kingdom come post-facto. This is God’s doing, because He is God and draws us to Himself on His terms, not ours.
He says to those who would come, “Taste and see,” not “See and taste.”
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back to top68 Comments to “Reasoning in a circle”
Except that you cannot prove the primacy of the koran by using the koran as the koran has too many errors and contradictions as well as spurious nonsense. To prove that the koran has primacy you must first show yourself to be an idiot.
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Some people believe. Some people do not. Why are so many people in each group so agitated about those in the other group, and so desperate to prove to them they are wrong?
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Philadelphis can’t be in Pennsylvania because it’s in Asia. My Bible says that, and I believe it.
(almost) Everybody, sometime or other, breaks out of his circle of reasoning, if only briefly. At that time, he is vulnerable to other thought systems, good and bad. If you’re thoughtful, or attend higher education, it happens often.
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Random, you’re still in the “prove right” (or wrong) mode. For Christians it isn’t the issue of proving right/wrong anymore, but presenting and offering the experience of knowing Jesus the Christ.
But, as for persuading, Christians have the Spirit of God () and as Romans 8:16 says, “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.”
You have probably gathered already that some of us are impervious to your system of thought. And when Ed calls us “idiots”, it has the same effect that rain does to a duck.
There is more to this than you understand. But Andree understands. And she understands why you don’t understand and we love you just the same.
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Here’s part of a post I made in another thread that touched on the subject of circular reasoning. It was held up for moderation and got buried. It’s actually more fitting for this thread, anyway.
…a pretty good discussion took place over here. Watch for Jim Hilston’s contributions. Disclaimer: This site espouses the Open Theism heresy, but Hilston is no proponent of it, as his posts elsewhere at that site attest…although he holds to some strange version of dispensationalism, but I digress.
Related to the current thread, Hilston also demonstrates the ultimate circularity of any epistemology here and here.
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Apologies–I’m scrambling to post before going to work. The first link above concerns the broader subject of presuppositional apologetics; the latter 2, circular reasoning.
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Random, I hope I am not desperate simply to prove others wrong, but yearning to see their heart and mind changed because I sincerely believe that their very life is at stake. Believing what the Bible says about Jesus compels us compel others. We undoubtedly often do it poorly, but surely you cannot fault us for caring deeply about others.
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Fisherman, I do not fault you for caring deeply about others.
I simply disagree with your beliefs. As to why I post on a web site where most believe differently than I do, soon I won’t.
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Andree: “If you begin with the presupposition that there is no God, or that He is not knowable, then everything you see and hear and read will confirm your presupposition.”
Even if you begin with the presupposition that there is a God and that He is knowable (as I and many, many others have), everything you see and hear and read will frequently lead you to the idea that God is apathetic at best and nonexistent at worst.
Andree: “That is reasoning in a circle.”
It’s not circular reasoning when an honest investigation of the evidence confirms your suspicions. Suppose I reach for a sealed soda can with the presupposition that there is soda inside it. Upon opening it and taking a sip, I recognize the taste of a sugary carbonated beverage. Is this circular reasoning because of my presupposition?
Frame: “Thus a rationalist can prove the primacy of reason only by using a rational argument. An empiricist can prove the primacy of sense-experience only by some kind of appeal to sense-experience.”
The thing that separates rationalism and empiricism from the rest of the pack is that they work. It may be philosopically sloppy to say that empiricism has been proven empirically, but the fact is that knowledge generated from testing and observation is extraordinarily reliable and can be used to make predictions about the universe. Most other methods of obtaining knowledge are significantly less useful and cannot be used to make reliable predictions.
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I agree with GWF. The scientific method is one of the great triumphs of humanity.
Unfortunately, the scientific method does not answer questions such as “why live?” and “How should I live?”
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Random: As to why I post on a web site where most believe differently than I do, soon I won’t.
But why did you ever?
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GWF81,
testing and observing the physical universe is valuable only for the physical universe. If there is a spiritual dimension to human existence, physical testing and observing is inadequate. I believe that that Bible uniquely combines the two dimensions and is a reasonable (rational in each sphere) explanation for the world which God has created for spirit/body beings to live and relate in.
“Testing and observing” offer poor explanations of love, hate, honor, guilt, forgiveness, beauty, or a multitude of other real human relational experiences.
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Random, since you are going on Hiatus soon, (hmm six months, that means your return will be a good Christmas present.) have someone you know , let us know that you are ok. We will miss you.
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Fisherman,
I completely disagree. Even though the “spiritual” side of the human experience cannot be isolated in the laboratory, we still develop spiritual knowledge through empirical means. Our interactions with other human beings and internal thoughts and emotions are very much testing and observation (preferably more observation than testing
). At any rate, I don’t find the Bible to be terribly useful physically or spiritually.
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Hmmmmm Circular reasoning? Don’t some people think in Triangles? Or maybe rhombuses?
Wasn’t the MTV generation supposed to have an attention span of 20 minutes? I am given to understand that the new MTV generation only has an attention span slightly longer than three minutes.
That is hardly enough time to go completely around a circle. Maybe they think in arcs instead ???
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GWF81,
Only if the God one presupposes is not the God who’s revealed Himself. None of us is immune from the tendency toward idolatry.
But the ones who conclude that God doesn’t exist can neither think nor live consistently with that conclusion–a good indication that their conclusion is wrong.
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Ree,
You seem to be suggesting that the members of both the church I attended from childhood to college and the church I attended throughout college were under a misapprehension about which god they were worshiping. I don’t think that’s the case and I think it’s quite presumptuous of you to assume so.
As for my ability to think and live consistently with my conclusion, I think we have been down this road before. I remain entirely unconvinced by these types of arguments and I am not alone.
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Random Name,
Keep posting. You keep us all on our toes!
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GWF81,
Did everyone in both of your former churches apostasize?
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#11 SteveG
But why did you ever?
As the saying goes, be careful what you ask for…you might get it.
Although I do not ever remember not being an atheist, this attitude was certainly set in my mind by the time I was ten years old. One day when I was a high school teacher (at the time I was in my mid thirties), I had a conversation one day with the teacher of the “senior issues” teacher. He was an interesting fellow who had been an electrician who in later life went back to school and became a counselor and also got a teaching certificate. Anyway, by the time students became seniors, the administration decided it was safe to let them talk about issues such as life and death, sex and birth, and so on…the type of decision many people think only parents should deal with.
One day I said about religion, “I’ve never been impressed with wish-washy, ‘go to church on Sunday and forget it the rest of the week’ Christianity. If I were a Christian I would be a hard-core, practice my religion every minute of the day fanatic Christian. However, I am not. I am a hard-core atheist.”
When I came across worldmagblog one day by accident doing a web search, I thought to myself Here are the real “hard-core dedicated Christians” I joked about thirty years ago. So I stuck around and started to read.
Of course, by then I had became an agnostic. (Another story, I’ve already told.) Ed accused me of being a wishy-washy atheist so I became a radical agnostic. I bore my hostages to death.
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#13
Thank you for your concern and good wishes. A few people at wmb read my blog so they may know if their is a big change in my life. However, if I drop dead suddenly (always a possibility at the age of 65, or for that matter at anya age) I am not sure how to make sure you will find out. Many people disappear from worldmagblog suddenly and nobody knows where they went.
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Sam,
Thank you. Time for the jumping jacks so you don’t become a couch potato. Also, my wife told me before she left for her volunteer work with people with Alheimer’s, “The potatoes are covered with slugs. Please go out and dispose of them.”
I have been given my slug genocide marching orders. I need to start marching.
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Ree (#19),
I am not sure how many people from my previous two churches have since apostatized. Both buildings still stand and seem to have populated parking lots on Sunday morning, so I would wager that there are at least a few people who still attend that were in the same congregation as I was. I don’t see how that’s terribly relevant unless you contend that I was participating in worship services, Bible studies, service projects, and youth groups with “true believers,” yet somehow worshiping a false god.
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Seu, you’ve confused circularity with the fact that all deductive arguments have premises. These are not the same, unless the premise is accepted solely because it is also a conclusion.
Your point is merely the old “presuppositions” one, but you confuse it by misusing the word “circularity.”
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In response to Random saying if he was a Christian he’d be a hard-core fanatic…
Guess we all need a little of the apostles zeal in us.
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I don’t know that it’s circularity that is the problem so much as it is that the universe is fundamentally a closed system. so all the transcendent questions finally get washed out — yet, we keep asking them. The why, the how, the wonder: what are these but thinking the pattern is bigger than what we see?
It is revelation that opens the universe, less word-oriented than deed. It’s the rising from the dead that breaks in and breaks the mold, that says that all these hints might just be true.
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GWF81,
As John Calvin famously observed, “the human heart it a perpetual factory of idols.” To one degree or another, virtually all churches impart some wrong ideas about God either implicitly, explictly, or both. And to one degree or another, virtually all individual Christians absorb and/or create wrong ideas about the nature of God. Many who have responded in faith to the gospel will never apostasize, but only by the grace of God.
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That should say “is,” not “it,” in the Calvin quote.
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The weakness of rationalism is the tendency to build arguments upon unsupported premises and to engage in lines of reasoning requiring definitions and tautologies. Within systems founded by rationalism, especially prevelant in any form of theology, circular reasoning is entirely possible and the most likely result. Empiricism has the inherent advantage of being based on observation and past experience. However, empiricism and its off-spring, modern science, run into problems when constrained by method. The result should not be appeal to divine inspiration which only returns you to a circular argument, per the opening post, rather a post-modern awareness of pragmatic solutions as oultined by Richard Rorty; what is true is what works.
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I read #27 and #29, and neither made much sense to me.
This may be the fault of the reader.
Even so, in a book written by God, or inspired by God, I would think He could have written or dictated or inspired clearly enough there would not be a need for so much confusion and so much argument and so much apology and so much explanation of what God really meant by all His followers in all their different sects and denominations and schisms.
As I’ve said before, it is still not clear to me how Christianity evolved from a time when quite a few Catholics and Protestants killed each other and tortured each other with considerable enthusiasm and delight into a religion where different sects co-exist with a reasonable amount of civility and tolerance.
As I don’t believe in people being born of virgins and rising from the dead, etc., etc., no matter how many times you insist on it, etc., etc., etc., I think it possible that Islam may also evolve. After all, as much as you insist that Islam is a religion of hate, etc., etc., the Old Testament is not exactly a tolerance picnic. If Christians could dream up a “New Covenant,” perhaps the idea will strike Muslims as well.
“What strange beast crawls toward Tehran to be born…? Why not?
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Ree (#27),
This sounds an awful lot like No true Scotsman. I urge you to consider the possibility that many people have had the right ideas about God and still found the evidence for him to be severely lacking.
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GWF81,
The “right ideas about God” according to what standard?
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As John Calvin famously observed, “the human heart it a perpetual factory of idols.” To one degree or another, virtually all churches impart some wrong ideas about God
And none more so than John Calvin!
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#31 This sounds an awful lot like No true Scotsman.
Which could’ve been better named the “No true Christian” fallacy.
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Ree: “The “right ideas about God” according to what standard?”
Use whatever standard you prefer. You can even use what you perceive to be God’s standard.
I think this will be my last reply to you in this thread. If you are only going to offer equivocation fallacies and ask arbitrary questions in an attempt to support them, we cannot have a meaningful discussion.
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Spinoza (#34),
So true!
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Spinoza and GWF,
Do neither of you even see the irony when you talk about right and wrong views of God while rejecting God’s existence. Between the two of you, your arguments rest on the idea that, “There’s no God, and my view of God is right, and yours (and Calvin’s) is wrong.”
No wonder GWF doesn’t want to respond anymore. You have to recognize the absurdity of your position.
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Ree: “Between the two of you, your arguments rest on the idea that, “There’s no God, and my view of God is right, and yours (and Calvin’s) is wrong.””
Where did you get that? My conclusion is that there are probably no gods. My argument rests on the lack of evidence for a god, not my disbelief in one (although I consider the argument from nonbelief to be fairly convincing). You were the one who introduced the phrases “wrong ideas about God” and “the God who’s revealed Himself.” I am merely adopting your terminology to respond to your posts. I thought my post at #35 would have illustrated that I don’t have much of an opinion on what constitutes the “right” or “wrong” ideas about God. I am happy to have you insert whatever you consider to be the “right” ideas about God, because they are probably very close, if not identical, to the ideas I was brought up with in a protestant and conservative church.
Ree: “No wonder GWF doesn’t want to respond anymore. You have to recognize the absurdity of your position.”
I didn’t want to reply anymore because you weren’t offering anything of substance. I am happy to see that you clarified your position and provided something that I can reply to.
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GFW,
When you say that you weren’t holding a wrong view of God, then you’re necessarily implying that you were holding a right one.
But even if both of your former churches formally held to a fully Biblical view of God, that doesn’t mean that all of its members did. I know that I’m constantly struggling against projecting my own feelings and ways of thinking onto God, and I know that all Christians do that to one degree or another. Knowing God is a process of continuous study and, more importantly, continuous obedience. In fact, without obedience, it’s impossible to know God.
The other point that’s been made over and over on these threads by lots of people though, is that you can’t start with the idea that you can take a position of neutrality toward God and then examine a body of evidence for His existence to come to a right conclusion because your starting premise is fundamentally opposed to the triune God of Scripture. You’ve ruled Him out from the get-go.
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Ree,
You are still harping on terminology, but I think I have been pretty clear. At this point, I do not recognize the “right” or “wrong” ideas about God any more than you recognize the “right” or “wrong” ideas about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. All I have to go on is what you consider to be “right” or “wrong.”
My point in this thread has been that I have had what I believe you would consider the “right” ideas about God for a significant portion of my life. During this time, I certainly had a Biblical view of God and “knew” him as you describe. I don’t know how this starting point can be considered a “position of neutrality”.
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Gwf,
“My conclusion is that there are probably no gods. My argument rests on the lack of evidence for a god, not my disbelief in one”
“During this time, I certainly had a Biblical view of God and “knew” him as you describe.”
If you knew God,how can you say “my argument rests on the lack of evidence for a god”? what lack of evidence? Could you give me an example?
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If you knew God,how can you say “my argument rests on the lack of evidence for a god”? what lack of evidence?
This is the same quandry people against the Iraqi war faced — “there is a lack of evidence for the existence of WMD” to which pro war people said “where is your lack of evidence”.
You can’t prove the non-existence of a non-existent quality, state or being. It is incumbent upon the people making a claim of existence to provide the evidence — WMD or god. If no evidence is offered, than no debate can be started.
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Okay GWF, let’s stop talking in generalities. When you “knew God” as you say you did, what convinced you that the God you supposedly knew did not really exist?
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Ree,
There were many things that were involved with me abandoning my faith. In no particular order, here are some of the major contributors to my weakened faith:
• From a young age, I understood that there are many different religions and that what religion you are raised with is largely due to wherever you happen to be born. As I got older, I came to the realization that people all over the world believe in the power of their religion just as fervently as I believed in mine. Every religion has incredible stories of divine revelation and near-death experiences, but the interesting thing is that the experience nearly always reinforces the religion that the subject already holds. It was then that I realized that “knowing” God is not unique to Christianity.
• After repeated readings, I realized that the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, does not have anything in it to separate it from other bronze age documents. There is an awful lot about what not to do with your privates and elaborate instructions on how to sacrifice animals, but there is nothing that couldn’t have been concocted by desert nomads. Any scientific information in the book is consistent with the best guesses of the time period. One would think that God could have revealed something amazing (heliocentricity, DNA, germ theory, electricity, the actual cause of rainbows) that would have bolstered the authority of the Bible, but instead we find a series of verses that directly contradict much of what we now know about the universe.
• I discovered that Christians do not have a monopoly on morality. In fact, many Christians (not to mention God, himself) behave immorally under the cover of divine authority. One particular case involves my wife’s old roommate reading loudly from the Bible as we moved my wife’s things out of the apartment. This was after the roommate had stolen a significant amount of money, locked my wife out of the apartment, and pulled me aside to let me know (falsely) that my wife had been cheating on me with several different men. Since the roommate is a blood relative, we still have minimal contact with her and she is still a devout Christian, even sending us a Christian book as a wedding gift. If this had happened while I was still strong in my faith, it probably wouldn’t have affected me much. However, this episode found me at a time of weakening faith, and it only weakened my faith further.
• As I mentioned in a previous thread, discovering how the Bible was assembled by a committee was pretty damaging to my weakening faith. The Bible is not a magic book. It was cobbled together from ancient texts and the consistency is far from perfect, even amongst the chapters that made the cut. The apocryphal texts were rejected for no reason other than that their content is incompatible with the message the Council of Nicea was aiming to spread.
All of this, among other things, pushed me to a state of doubt and eventually a realization that the world makes so much more sense when you eliminate a personal god from the equation.
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Sansend: “If you knew God,how can you say “my argument rests on the lack of evidence for a god”? what lack of evidence? Could you give me an example?”
HRW gave a good answer to your question, but I actually do have a few things that I would consider evidence of absence beyond absence of evidence.
As I said in my previous post, hardly any of the scientific information in the Bible is consistent with reality. According to the Bible, the earth is flat with a firmament which has holes for the Sun and Moon to pass in and out of, rainbows are placed in the sky by God, pi and three are the same number, the entire diversity of life on this planet was created over a six day period, and leprosy can be cured by slaughtering birds and lambs. None of this points to a divinely inspired author. In fact, I would argue just the opposite. Why would the all knowing, all loving creator of the universe write a book that has so much bad advice and misinformation?
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GFW,
This is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. The Scriptural revelation teaches the sovereignty of God over all things, and it specifically talks about God appointing the times and the places in which people are born. Nothing that you observed was inconsistent with what Scripture already acknowledges–the people follow the gods of their fathers, yet you saw that as evidence against the truth of Christianity. I suspect that’s a failure of both the church and your personal faith. Contemporary evangelicalism leans way to the Arminian side, and people are inclined to think that they have much more to do with their own salvation that Scripture teaches that they do.
This is so presumptuous. The truth of God is validated in every fiber of the universe. Apart from Him, the transcendent truths that we take for granted are incoherent. Truly you need God as a foundation in order to even coherently question Him. But modernists think that he needs to prove His existence by wowing them with some secret information. Agaign, this is exactly what I was talking about. The assumption that God has to do this is inconsistent with the God of Scripture. If God did what you want Him to, He wouldn’t be God.
Also, Christians don’t have a monopoly on morality, but they have the only coherent explanation for its existence. Without God, there is no moral imperative.
And the Bible wasn’t “assembled by committee.” The Scriptures were regarded as Scripture long before the councils. The councils were assembled to deal with a few disputed books.
Just as I supposed, your fundamental presuppositions were contrary to God. But your questions about reality don’t even make sense if God doesn’t exist. Even the expectation that questions about reality can make morally and logically sense relies on the existence of God. The Bible is certainly true when it says that the knowledge of God is innate and that we’re convicted by what we know.
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Gfw,
“hardly any of the scientific information in the Bible is consistent with reality.” Could you give me specific examples of where in the bible it is not consistent whit reality? As for the word is flat, this nowhere in the Bible. the Bible actually suggests the world is round. (Isaiah 40:22) Also the bible does not say you can cure leprosy by slaughtering birds and lambs.If the person was healed,then they would sacrifice animals afterward.(Leviticus 14) Pi is not mentioned in the bible. I was not there when the world came into existence, but I believe the Bible. What proof do you have that the word wasn’t created in six days? What would you except as evidence that the Bible is consistent with reality?
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Ree,
You seem to have missed my points by a fairly large margin. Additionally, I was merely listing the things that weakened my faith, not the things that I expect will weaken yours.
When I discussed the different world religions, the meat of the argument was in the part you neatly snipped out and ignored. The whole reason I cited the different religions was to point out that Christianity is not special or unique when it comes to transcendent experiences. This is a fairly big deal. If there is one true God, why does worshiping him feel exactly the same way as worshiping a false god?
I fully admit that it is presumptuous of me to expect something about DNA or electricity in the Bible. However, with so much focus on homosexuality, emissions and discharges of all sorts, and how to properly sacrifice animals, one would think that God could have sprinkled some nuggets of timeless wisdom amongst the tribal superstitions. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that the Bible is outright wrong on certain issues that the creator of the universe should be an expert on. I don’t expect this to convince you or anyone else, but it did contribute to my crisis of faith.
The idea that morality cannot exist without a god is absurd. The Euthyphro dilemma is probably the best philosophical example of this, but morality can also be discussed from a biological or psychological basis. The only type of morality that requires a god is the arbitrary and absolute variety. I will also mention that most other religions have just as coherent of an explanation for morality as Christianity does.
Even if I accept that the canon of the Bible was fairly well established before the Council of Nicea, it was still cobbled together by human beings throughout history. The fact that we have documented disagreements about what belongs in the Bible should give most people pause, but it rarely seems to.
Failing to ignore reality is contrary to God? You must realize that any religion is obviously true if you ignore any evidence that contradicts it. Your fundamental presuppositions run contrary to Allah, Thor, Zeus, and Vishnu in far larger a way than mine ran contrary to Yahweh, but that doesn’t seem to concern you.
As I feared, you still seem to be making an elaborate No true Scotsman argument. Furthermore, your continual appeal to TAG does not strengthen your position. The fact that you cannot imagine making sense of anything without God is a failure of the imagination, not a cohesive argument. As I said before, it was when I finally lost my faith that the world started to make sense.
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Sansend,
Isaiah 40:22 is one of the most egregious examples of a flat-Earth understanding of the world. Round (or specifically “circle” in the verse) is not the same as spherical. Furthermore, the use of words such as “tent” and “canopy” does not reflect an understanding of the Earth as a globe. You also neglected to mention the notion of a firmament which is clearly incompatible with what we now know about our atmosphere. The clearest picture we can get from the Bible is the Earth as a disc with a hemispherical dome over it which is consistent with the prevailing theories of that time and place.
I guess I should have been clearer about the leprosy protocol. The slaughtered animals are part of a ritual to “cleanse” the leper by sprinkling bird’s blood on him, shaving him, making him sleep outside for a week, and shaving him again. If you think this is (or was) good advice, then I probably won’t be able to convince you otherwise, but I would wager that most medical professionals would just recommend antibiotics and forgo the whole blood sprinkling and shaving bit.
Pi is most certainly involved with the Bible, but not by name. In 1 Kings 7:23, a part of the temple is constructed that is 10 cubits in diameter and 30 cubits in circumference. High school math will tell us that both 31 and 32 would have been better integer approximations for the actual circumference and that 31.4159 is close to what it actually would have been (an error of nearly 5%).
This isn’t the thread to debate the merits of the theory of evolution in, but just know that there is not a single shred of evidence that corroborates the Genesis story of creation. Meanwhile, the theory of evolution (a very fragile theory, if false) continues to be validated with every fossil we find. To adhere to the Genesis account of creation requires that you ignore nearly everything we know about biology, geology, and cosmology.
Additionally, I mentioned rainbows, which we now know are caused by refraction and reflection of light, but the Bible describes as a sign of God’s promise to Noah to never flood the world again. Did God first invent the physical properties of light and water with the rainbow in mind all along or did he reinvent them after the flood? It would be awfully strange if rainbows appeared during showers before the flood, but it would also be strange for God to reinvent physics to simply put his bow in the sky.
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GFW,
Well, I disagree with just about everything you said,(especially “To adhere to the Genesis account of creation requires that you ignore nearly everything we know about biology, geology, and cosmology.” )but we are getting off course of the article. If you would like to continue this discussion, I will give you my E-mail address.
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Sansend,
I sincerely appreciate the offer to take this to e-mail, but quite honestly, it is a complete waste of time to debate creationists in private conversations. The only reason I will debate creationists in public forums is in hopes of convincing any silent observers to go out and do their homework. The facts are out there and easily accessible for anyone who really cares about the true history of life on this planet. You can disagree with me all you want, but my statement about Genesis is about as accurate as any statement can get.
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Gfw,
OK. Cool. you probably know where I stand. It would be easy for you to question my views and watch while I defend them.I need to know where you stand… What is the “true history” of this planet? how do you think the world came in to existence?
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Sansend,
The earth came into existence approximately 4.5 billion years ago. The oldest fossils we have found are 3.5 billions years old so evolution by natural selection has been occurring for at least that long. Vertebrates originated approximately 500 million years ago, mammals – 50 million years ago, and humans – 200 thousand years ago. This is roughly the stance that is held by 99.9% of scientists.
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GFW,
“Meanwhile, the theory of evolution (a very fragile theory, if false) continues to be validated with every fossil we find.”
So, you believe in, by your own admission,”a very fragile theory, if false.” As for the fossil record, that works against evolution. If we took millions of years to evolve, It should be verified by a reasonable amount of fossils. The few fossils we find that some claim to be evidence evolution, are still in debate and are sketchy at best.They hardly make up for the millions of years that are missing from the fossil record. Natural selection is microevolution. Not macroevolution. there is only so much information in genetic codes. Animals can adapt to their surrounding through natural selection.(microevolution) They have enough information in there genetic codes to do that, but their change stays within the species.Genetic information must be added to change do any more than that.which doesn’t happen.
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Oh goody, another Creationist armed with the standard issue half-truths and misinformation.
This is why the argument’s not worth wasting time on.
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SEVEG,
Wow, that was pretty bias. If you would like to join us, feel welcome. If not, and “the argument’s not worth wasting time on.” why did you post? were you just trying to get me flustered?
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Sansend, I’ll put it like this: Are you open to changing your mind if you are shown good evidence that you’re mistaken? Or are you so certain you’re right that you can’t forsee anything that would cause you to rethink?
You made two incorrect assertions in #54. The fossil record is much better and much more supportive of evolution than you suggest. And the “genetic information” point is based on a false premise. Nevertheless, creationists continue to say these things with an air of great authority, and usually refuse to even consider they might be mistaken.
If you’re not willing, then there’s not point in my saying anything more than, be well.
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Sansend,
SteveG really hit the nail on the head. The only people who make the claims you did in #54 are creationist propagandists. If you investigated this topic in an honest attempt to discover the truth, as opposed to merely trying to reinforce a position you already hold, you would understand how poor your argument is.
The theory of evolution is only fragile in the sense that there are many ways in which it could be proven false, if not fundamentally accurate. The theory of evolution has survived for 150 years, in spite of all of the advances in biology and the discovery of DNA. In fact, the discovery of DNA neatly filled a gap in evolutionary theory by providing a mechanism for mutation and inheritance.
You are woefully misinformed about the fossil record. First of all, no scientist would ever expect us to find a complete set of fossils that chronicles every step in evolutionary history. Fossilization is simply too rare of an event and there are far too many steps. Regardless, we still have an incredible number of fossils that provide overwhelming evidence for evolution. This is not a point of debate in the scientific community and the fossils are certainly not “sketchy.” If you elaborate further, I may be able to provide counter examples to where you think the fossil record falls short.
Microevolution and macroevolution are exactly the same thing. The only difference is scale. Believing in one and not the other is like accepting inches, but rejecting miles.
The “genetic information” argument indicates that you have never read anything about genetics or evolution other than creationist propaganda. The truth of the matter is that there are a number of verified mechanisms that can add “information” to the genome. I am not sure why this point has so much traction in the creationist camp, but it really doesn’t hold any water. I can give you examples of novel morphological traits observed to have evolved in a population and I can give you examples of events that produce novel sequences of DNA. Where does your objection lie in regards to “genetic information?”
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STEVEG,
I am open to to change If I am shown good evidence. I welcome fresh view points.
“The fossil record is much better and much more supportive of evolution than you suggest.”
Could you give me one example? I’m not being conceited, I just don’t want to be overwhelmed and appear to be ignoring some of your arguments.
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Sansend,
This may be more than you are looking for, but TalkOrigins has an extensive archive of evidence for evolution. The following link gives five clear examples of the fossil record supporting evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates
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GFW,
OK, Archaeopteryx, for example, is believed to be a one of the missing links because of it’s teeth and claws.It’s supposedly the transitional form between birds and reptiles.Here are two main problems with this interpretation. one, it assumes that the birds we see to day are the only representation of proper birds. Two,the Archeopteryx was not the only bird with teeth. there is a subclass Ordontornithes, that is devoted to birds with teeth. So, the teeth aren’t all that special. Also, there are some birds that hatch with claws and lose them when they reach maturity and no longer need them.the Ostrich have structures on there wings that some call claws.(although better called spurs in my opinion)You might say these similarities support evolution, which brings us back to macroevolution.
“Microevolution and macroevolution are exactly the same thing. The only difference is scale. Believing in one and not the other is like accepting inches, but rejecting miles.”
Microevolution – the theory that natural selection can,over time,take an organism and transform it into a more specialized species of that organism.
Macroevolution – the theory that natural selection can, over eons of time, can transform an organism into a completely different organism.
“The “genetic information” argument indicates that you have never read anything about genetics or evolution other than creationist propaganda”
Indeed, you are an evolutionist. you hardly know anything about me,and you make an assumption based on what little you do
(sorry if that offends you,you left yourself asking for that comment,and I mean it only in fun) your assumption holds a little merit, but is far from accurate.
know.
“The truth of the matter is that there are a number of verified mechanisms that can add “information” to the genome. I am not sure why this point has so much traction in the creationist camp, but it really doesn’t hold any water. I can give you examples of novel morphological traits observed to have evolved in a population and I can give you examples of events that produce novel sequences of DNA.”
Please do.I’m open.
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GFW,
As for the link, thank. I’ll check it out
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Sansend:
OK, Archaeopteryx, for example, is believed to be a one of the missing links because of it’s teeth and claws.It’s supposedly the transitional form between birds and reptiles.Here are two main problems with this interpretation. one, it assumes that the birds we see to day are the only representation of proper birds.
What do you mean, the “only representation of proper birds?”
Archeopteryx is, in fact, a clear case of the transitional forms that creationists are forever claiming do not exist. It shares some characteristics with birds and some with reptiles. And it’s not limited to the obvious things like wings or teeth … it includes bone structure, the shape of the hips, etc.
Two,the Archeopteryx was not the only bird with teeth. there is a subclass Ordontornithes, that is devoted to birds with teeth. So, the teeth aren’t all that special.
Which shows that there are a good number of transitional forms for creationists to deny.
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Sansend,
I think the Archaeopteryx bit is fairly well covered in the TalkOrigins link under the reptiles to birds example. Archaeopteryx is but one of many fossils that illustrate the smooth transition from bipedal dinosaurs to birds. The teeth alone are not significant in and of themselves.
Sansend: “well said but not quite accurate.There is a difference.
Microevolution – the theory that natural selection can,over time,take an organism and transform it into a more specialized species of that organism.
Macroevolution – the theory that natural selection can, over eons of time, can transform an organism into a completely different organism.”
Again, even as you have defined them, the only thing that separates these two concepts is scale. If enough small changes accumulate, it results in a large change. There is no barrier to the amount of change that can accumulate.
Sansend: “Indeed, you are an evolutionist. you hardly know anything about me,and you make an assumption based on what little you do know.
(sorry if that offends you,you left yourself asking for that comment,and I mean it only in fun) your assumption holds a little merit, but is far from accurate.”
I do apologize for coming off harsh and presumptuous, but honestly, only someone completely unfamiliar with genetics and evolution would make such a statement.
Sansend: “Please do.I’m open.”
At the DNA level we have gene duplications and insertions combined with deletions or point mutations, all which have been observed and can produce novel sequences of DNA. There are also cases of horizontal gene transfer, where one organism injects a portion of its DNA into another.
At the morphological level, there has been an observed instance of a wild population of lizards developing a new structure in their digestive tract.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html
Another example is Richard Lenski’s experiment that shows a population of E. coli developing the ability to consume citrate.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
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STEVEG,
“it assumes that the birds we see to day are the only representation of proper birds.”
What I mean is, from a creationist viewpoint, all bird were created at once. The all lived at the same time. Some have gone extinct since then. They’re not missing links because they no longer exist and have claws and teeth. All birds were created on the same day, and the Archaeopteryx, was part of the wide bird verity that once existed and is still shrinking to day. The Archaeopteryx is (from a creationist viewpoint still) simply a bird God created with wings and claws. Similarities we see between species are not because of a common ancestor, but a common Creator. Like an architect with a common theme in all his work.
Oh, STEVEG and GFW, Do you really believe you evolved from shear random chance?
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GFW,
Oh yeah, talkorigins. I’ve been there. It is a little more than I was looking for.If we debated on whats on that site it would take years.
as for the links,
“What could be debated, however, is how those changes are interpreted—whether or not they had a genetic basis and not a “plastic response to the environment,”
“‘All of this might be evolution,” Hendry said. “The logical next step would be to confirm the genetic basis for these changes.’”
genetics. Well actually, I get to that later.
one of the questions I have, is what was their former environment like in comparison to the new one? Were there the same kind of plants on the first Island as the second? To further Illustrate my point I’ll tell you a quick story. I lived in an environment where, I was allergic to things that are around me pollen, etc. I also have difficulty breathing in Humidity.When I visited a relative in Arizona I found I could breath very freely and could do much more with out getting out of breath, etc.I was all around healthier. Why? Because I was in an environment that better suited my needs.
Also,
“Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on.”
PRIMARILY insect-eating lizards.
what they don’t give is information like; were the plants that were on the second island on the first? and what was the insect population on the first island compared to the second?
Many carnivores can eat plants.
As far as genetics are concerned,The ability to switch from a primary insect-eating diet to a plant eating diet may very well have already been in their metabolism.The fact that the lizard survived and adjusted so quickly supports this. That information was probably already there. Extra information doesn’t just appear, even if you wait a million years. Something out of the ordinary must happen.Information must be added, which is not ordinary. I’m surprised you still try to explain evolution using the macroevolution theory. Most have switch to using mutation.
As for the second link,
Information can be added through several ways.One, in conjugation,a bacterium that has a certain gene can give it to one that doesn’t.Two,in transformation, a bacterium that doesn’t have a gene can get it from a dead bacterium. Three,in transduction, information is in a virus that that infects the bacteria.If they survive,they can have extra genetic information as a result.
Any of this could have happened if the E-coli was exposed to anything,even air,just once. And in an experiment that lasted twenty years, odds are that was the case.
“To find out which, Lenski turned to his freezer, where he had saved samples of each population every 500 generations”
He saved samples and put them in his freezer. He interacted with them and could have exposed them to other bacteria.
He also fed them. Bacteria could have gotten in that way too.
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Sansend: “Oh, STEVEG and GFW, Do you really believe you evolved from shear random chance?”
The only people who claim evolution is a theory of chance are creationists. Your statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory of evolution.
Sansend: “one of the questions I have, is what was their former environment like in comparison to the new one? Were there the same kind of plants on the first Island as the second? To further Illustrate my point I’ll tell you a quick story. I lived in an environment where, I was allergic to things that are around me pollen, etc. I also have difficulty breathing in Humidity.When I visited a relative in Arizona I found I could breath very freely and could do much more with out getting out of breath, etc.I was all around healthier. Why? Because I was in an environment that better suited my needs.”
The lizards developed new structures in their digestive tracts due to different selection pressure in the new environment. This has nothing to do with a single individual reacting differently to various situations. Again, I don’t think you have an understanding of how evolution works.
Sansend: “what they don’t give is information like; were the plants that were on the second island on the first? and what was the insect population on the first island compared to the second?
Many carnivores can eat plants.”
The point is not that the lizards ate plants. The point is that the lizards developed significant morphological changes to assist them with eating plants under selection pressure.
Sansend: “As far as genetics are concerned,The ability to switch from a primary insect-eating diet to a plant eating diet may very well have already been in their metabolism.The fact that the lizard survived and adjusted so quickly supports this. That information was probably already there.”
You are using terms like “may very well” and “probably,” but you have nothing to support this hypothesis. Besides, it does not address the morphological changes to the lizards’ digestive tracts.
Sansend: “Extra information doesn’t just appear, even if you wait a million years. Something out of the ordinary must happen.Information must be added, which is not ordinary.”
You really need to get your information from someone who knows what they are talking about. Genetic “information” (which is a poor choice of term) gets added ALL THE TIME through well understood and documented mechanisms. I explained this and gave examples in my previous post. It is not out of the ordinary at all for novel sequences of DNA to emerge from a series of mutations.
Sansend: “I’m surprised you still try to explain evolution using the macroevolution theory. Most have switch to using mutation.”
I’m sorry, but this doesn’t even make sense. Mutation describes a copying error in the genome. This can be a gene duplication, a point mutation, an insertion, a deletion, etc. Macroevolution describes evolution above the species level (which is the result of accumulated mutations, just like microevolution).
Sansend: “Information can be added through several ways.One, in conjugation,a bacterium that has a certain gene can give it to one that doesn’t.Two,in transformation, a bacterium that doesn’t have a gene can get it from a dead bacterium. Three,in transduction, information is in a virus that that infects the bacteria.If they survive,they can have extra genetic information as a result.
Any of this could have happened if the E-coli was exposed to anything,even air,just once. And in an experiment that lasted twenty years, odds are that was the case.”
“Odds are?” This wasn’t a science fair project. This was a controlled, meticulously documented, real live scientific experiment. Do you really think that a research biologist didn’t take the proper precautions to protect twenty years of work from getting ruined by contaminants? Odds are that the populations of E. coli were routinely tested for contaminants and the experiment would be rolled back to the most recent “clean” version if any were found. Why on Earth do you think he was saving samples of bacteria populations?
This is exactly why it is so useless to debate creationists. I provided you with real examples of evolution occurring before our eyes and all you bother to respond with is misinformed nonsense about genetics and a bunch of baseless conjecture regarding the robustness of the findings. You aren’t interested in the truth. You are only interested in reinforcing ideas you already hold. Furthermore, in this entire exchange, you have not presented a single shred of evidence that supports your 6-day creation hypothesis. I will continue to respond to your posts if you have genuine questions about evolution, but I don’t think you do.
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GWF,
“This is exactly why it is so useless to debate creationists.”
I can see how you would think that. But what you don’t know is that I already, in what little we have covered so far, have a better understanding of your views, where you are coming from,and am more open to seeing the merit of your views as well. I actually believe there is a slim chance that the E-coli could have mutated into what it is today.
“odds are that was the case.”
That wasn’t a good choice of words. I knew it isn’t a science fair project. what I meant was, over twenty years, there is a decent chance a very small mistake involving microscopic organisms could have happened. Mistakes happen to the best of us.
This could have been the case.
“You are using terms like “may very well” and “probably,” but you have nothing to support this hypothesis.”
The reason I use those terms is because I do not wish to hang myself with my own words by stating possibilities as fact when I have not personally studied the lizards.
“but you have nothing to support this hypothesis.”
The ability to switch from a PRIMARILY insect-eating diet to a plant eating diet may very well have already been in their metabolism. The fact that the lizard survived and adjusted so quickly SUPPORTS
this.
“The only people who claim evolution is a theory of chance are creationists. Your statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the theory of evolution.”
My apologies. I am honestly curious. Unless natural selection is some kind of Guiding force, Isn’t It chance? If evolution wasn’t guided, and was just left to itself with nothing guiding it, isn’t that kind of selection based on random chance?
“Furthermore, in this entire exchange, you have not presented a single shred of evidence that supports your 6-day creation hypothesis.”
OK. my bad. I’ll start simple.
1. In archaeological finds, we see very complected languages and culture all of a sudden there. With little or no singe of development.
2.in 1988, a 90% complete T rex skeleton was discovered in which there were red blood cells still in the partially fossilized femur. These red blood cells provide excellent evidence that the fossils found are not millions of years old, but are no more than a few thousand years old.
I definitely have more, but for now,that’s enough to start with.
“You aren’t interested in the truth.”
That’s a pretty significant statement. Please do this simple thing. Define “truth” for me.
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