Learn it! Speak it! Live it!
Bring Christmas to a child in need!
An 'urgency': Sensing threats to institutions of society, church leaders make declaration 
Click to Print
Include Comments
Whirled Views 6.23
Good morning!
Today’s quote is from a famous Greek:
“For one swallow does not make a summer, nor does one day; and so too one day, or a short time, does not make a man blessed and happy.”
Welcome to our daily (except Sundays) open thread, where you, the commenters, choose the topics of conversation.
Topic: Watercooler Chatter, WorldMagBlog
You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
back to top91 Comments to “Whirled Views 6.23”
No comment.
Report comment to moderator
Me neither.
Take that back. I’m reading a commentary on Daniel. Very interesting.
Report comment to moderator
3. Hey, we’re studying Daniel, too.
Report comment to moderator
DC metro train crash.. they were warned by the govt regulators to fix the problem. Now folks have died. And the neat thing is, NONE of the train bosses will be fired or face a pay cut!
Report comment to moderator
“NONE of the train bosses will be fired or face a pay cut!”
Why not?
Report comment to moderator
KBells, I’m reading the book. My wife took the course. A lady in our church teaches series of Bible studies for the ladies. Man can’t attend. A man can’t learn anything from a woman in our church. I’m reading the book. It’s good that I wasn’t there though. The lady is staunch pre-trib rapture. I’m pre-wrath, and I tend not to hold my tongue.
Which book are you studying? I’m reading The Book of Daniel by Duck and Richards. They are pre-trib, as is expected.
As for the train bosses, it’s the unions and bureacracy. The problem was not their fault. They attempted to do something about it long ago. (Whenever and whatever that was.)
Report comment to moderator
Sawgunner: What?
The articles I’ve read this morning say it was a combination of signal failure and operator error (the driver of the second train apparently didn’t hit the emergency brake once it became obvious the signal system had wrongly reported the track was clear ahead.)
The only mention of government regulators was that in 2000, the Federal Railroad Administration warned all railroads everywhere that signals made by that manufacturer were prone to failure and malfunction; but WMATA had already replaced all of them in 1999, so there was nothing in that warning aimed specifically at them.
And since the woman who apparently failed to take action in time was killed, firing her would be ineffective.
Where are you getting your information?
Report comment to moderator
Zorba?
Report comment to moderator
Chas, we’re not using a book. My Bible school teacher is a converted Jew who used to teach in the synagogue and is doing his own research. He says get ready to crunch some numbers when we get to chapter nine and that the reason Jews don’t consider Daniel a prophet is that if Daniel was written before Christ it proves that He is the messiah. or something like that. We just finished chapter six.
Report comment to moderator
One swallow may not make a summer day, but we have some nice, building heat (90+ today it looks like — nothing for you folks from the South, I know). Summer definitely has arrived here.
And my wife walks through the house beaming about the roses.
Report comment to moderator
SteveG, your sources are better than mine. I’m relying on snippets on the live stream broadcast of KTSA.com down in San Antonio.
What I understood was the DC metro folks were cited and told to fix a problem. No evidence it was ever done. No evidence that any punitive action was ever imposed.
I liken this to Katrina where Army Corps of Engineers reports were concerned about the retaining walls but ACE reports were ignored. Maintenance funds were diverted to..??
Report comment to moderator
Everybody knows.
Report comment to moderator
#10 Harris here in Vernon Parish Ft Polk 90 degrees would be a cold front.
As you all know, Ft P is home to Joint Readiness Training Center. (No, that doesnt involve pot plants). Soldiers come from posts all over the USA to train up and rehearse for missions abroad.
Recently we had troops from Ft Lewis WASHINGTON come here. In the SeaTac area its a lot cooler than here. These young men arrive and often don’t get acclimatized. We’ve had about 7 or 8 “heat casualties” brought in from the field to the hospital.
Pray for diligent observant field medics and leaders who stress to their men and women the importance of water water water at ea opportunity to drink!
Report comment to moderator
#5 Kbells, were any govt employees/regulators fired when they issued entrance visas to the AlQaeda men? Anyone fired when they failed to identify/correct all the red flags of FANNIE/FREDDIE?
Incompetents are routinely relieved/reassigned/booted out of the military but I don’t see anything comparable in the civilian realms.
Report comment to moderator
Here in southern Maine, we finally have a day without rain falling – I’d begun to think we’d been transplanted to Seattle! Still overcast skies, but I think the sun is trying to peek through.
Last Friday’s very heavy rain flooded our basement and appears to have killed our furnace.
Report comment to moderator
89 percent of Americans are satisfied with their health care
http://kudlow.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGE5OWFjYWU1OWNhOTMxNzAxYzQ1ZDFlMTdhN2QyNzU=
Report comment to moderator
The DC Metro trains are operated by computers that have a failsafe that should prevent such collisions. Operators can also manually override the system to apply brakes in emergencies. One prior collision occured in which the engineer did brake enough to limit the severity of the collision and prevent any deaths.
An investigation was unable to identify the failure that led to that prior collision. It is also reported that automatic operations tend to cause the operator to “zone out” and that very human behavior probably contributed to this disaster since no brakes were applied. The train operator was one of the fatalities.
I no longer ride the DC Metro regularly but have been on that line and through those areas in the past.
Report comment to moderator
Hey, did you read the story about the cleaning woman who for 24 years cleaned at the white house, including the oval office. Each night, she would pause at the Presidents chair and pray.
Wow.
http://redletterbelievers.blogspot.com/2009/06/emma-gray-white-house-cleaning-lady.html
Report comment to moderator
I still recall the California RR guy who was text msging when the train crashed. Quite scary when you think about it. You never hear about train crashes in France or Japan where they rely on rail far more than the USA does.
Report comment to moderator
Graeter’s ice cream now available in pints in CO. Check your own grocery freezer section, because I’m not sharing.
Report comment to moderator
KBells, I would like to talk to your teacher. I didn’t know the Jews didn’t recognize Daniel as a prophet. They also wouldn’t have to recognize Isaiah 53.
But I would like to ask him about the temple. Everyone seems to agree that the temple has to be rebuilt in Jerusalem before the beginning of the tribulation.
Everyone, but me, that is.
I would like to ask him to cinsider the apocryphal book of II Macabees.
Chapter 2:
1 You will find in the records, not only that Jeremiah the prophet ordered the deportees to take some of the aforementioned fire with them,
2 but also that the prophet, in giving them the law, admonished them not to forget the commandments of the Lord or be led astray in their thoughts, when seeing the gold and silver idols and their ornaments.
3 With other similar words he urged them not to let the law depart from their hearts.
4 The same document also tells how the prophet, following a divine revelation, ordered that the tent and the ark should accompany him and how he went off to the mountain which Moses climbed to see God’s inheritance.
5 When Jeremiah arrived there, he found a room in a cave in which he put the tent, the ark, and the altar of incense; then he blocked up the entrance.
6 Some of those who followed him came up intending to mark the path, but they could not find it.
7 When Jeremiah heard of this, he reproved them: “The place is to remain unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy.
8 Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord will be seen in the cloud, just as it appeared in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the Place might be gloriously sanctified.”
The “mount of Moses” is Mt. Nebo, in Jordan. Note, especially, v. 7&8. Consider now, Zech. 12:10-14, and Romans 11:25-26f.
The writer definitely says:
1. The Tabernacle and Ark are hidden in a cave at Mt.Nebo.
2. It will someday be discovered.
3. God will gather his people again. (This was written much after the return from Babylonian captivity.)
4. God will receive them to mercy.
INTERESTING! Would this qualify concerning prophesy about “The Temple”?
Next time you see him, ask him for me. Please?
Report comment to moderator
I followed up on this, because I was just reading/watching about it this morning.
Kudlow very selectively (dishonestly, I’d say) reports the results of that survey. Here are the full results:
Thinking about health care in the country as a whole, are you generally satisfied or dissatisfied with…
(1) the total cost of health care in this country?
SATISFIED: 18%
DISSATISFIED: 80%
DON’T KNOW: 2%
(2) the quality of health care in this country?
SATISFIED: 44%
DISSATISFIED: 54%
DON’T KNOW: 2%
How satisfied are you with each of the following: (SATISFIED / DISSATISFIED)
The quality of care you receive: 89/10
Your health care costs: 57/40
——————-
Ok, now compare that 2006 survey (PDF from the Kaiser Family Foundation) to a 2003 survey by Gallup comparing satisfaction with the health care in the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain.
Are you very satisfied, somewhat satisfied, somewhat dissatisfied, or very dissatisfied with the availability of affordable health care in the nation?
UNITED STATES
Very Satisfied: 6%
Somewhat Satisfied: 19%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 28%
Very Dissatisfied: 44%
CANADA
Very Satisfied: 16%
Somewhat Satisfied: 41%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 24%
Very Dissatisfied: 17%
GREAT BRITAIN
Very Satisfied: 7%
Somewhat Satisfied: 36%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 27%
Very Dissatisfied: 25%
Are you very satisfied, somewhat satisfied, somewhat dissatisfied, or very dissatisfied with the a quality of medical care in the nation
UNITED STATES
Very Satisfied: 17%
Somewhat Satisfied: 31%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 24%
Very Dissatisfied: 36%
CANADA
Very Satisfied: 13%
Somewhat Satisfied: 39%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 26%
Very Dissatisfied: 22%
GREAT BRITAIN
Very Satisfied: 11%
Somewhat Satisfied: 31%
Somewhat Dissatisfied: 33%
Very Dissatisfied: 23%
Notice that Americans are vastly more dissatisfied with the availability of affordable health care (25% satisfied / 72% dissatisfied) than the Canadians and Brits. Also notice that the satisfaction with quality of health care is fairly consistent across all three nations — about a 50/50 split in all three.
In other words, we pay a lot more, and are unhappy about that, and are no more satisfied with the final product than the countries with universal health care.
I also found this interesting: Real News Network did some street interviews with Canadians, showing them the commercials airing in the US (claiming that Canadians don’t like their health care) and asking their response. They all expressed that while their system, like any, has flaws, they were generally happy with their health care and felt the commercials were dishonest.
Report comment to moderator
#18
I think it is admirable that the woman described in this story did her job in a faithful and competent way.
I have no problem that she took a moment to pray at the President’s chair, but neither am I inspired by it. This is a silly reference, even for worldmagblog.
Report comment to moderator
Paula #20, Graeter’s is available in Cincinnati in pints and quarts. Has been for years.
Except for one of those black raspberry chocolate chip pints. That specific pint is no longer available. Mmmmm!
Report comment to moderator
Random – For people who believe in prayer, it is not silly at all.
Your remarks of late remind me of my MIL, Mary. I wish I could tell you that this is a complement, but it’s not.
Mary was very negative, critical, & contrary. (Mary, Mary quite contrary…) She would throw in negative comments even when the subject didn’t concern her. Like when my brother got some sausage thingies (from Swiss Colony or Fiji’s) for Christmas, she blurted out, “Oh, I hate those things!”
Or if there was a discussion going on & someone asked a question, rather than remaining silent & let somebody else answer, she’d say, in a very negative, almost contemptuous tone, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” I wondered often why she couldn’t just be quiet, keep her negativity to herself, & let others enjoy their conversation.
Almost funny was the time my mom & I took her to a Ladies Brunch at church, which were quite enjoyable, with a lot of talking & laughing. Mary said to Mom that she didn’t know what she was doing there. Mom said, “Oh, you’ll have a good time.”
Mary’s reply? A scowling face, & “No I won’t!”
Anyway, you kinda remind me of her lately, interjecting your negative comments into a thread that others find meaningful or interesting.
You used to be nicer. Maybe you haven’t had enough bunnies to shoot to work off your aggression?
Report comment to moderator
Sawgunner: What I understood was the DC metro folks were cited and told to fix a problem. No evidence it was ever done. No evidence that any punitive action was ever imposed.
I’ve been following it mostly in the Washington Post, and have not seen any mention of that. If it’s correct then there’s some serious malfeasance involved, so I’ll look for more information.
This is the closest I’ve seen to what you’re saying:
During the past decade, Metro has struggled with troublesome communications relays. The agency tore out all 20,000 trackside relays in 1999 after discovering that a small portion designed to last 70 years were failing after 25. They sent erroneous instructions to trains on several occasions. One train was told to travel 45 mph on a stretch of track with a 15-mph speed limit; another was directed to travel at zero mph when it should have been ordered to move at 15 mph.
The manufacturer, Alstom Signaling, agreed to replace the relays. The company could not be reached for comment last night.
In May 2000, the Federal Railroad Administration issued a safety warning to all railroads and transit systems, saying relays manufactured between 1960 and 1985 by General Railway Signal had a tendency to stick or fail.
Alstom, which bought General Railway Signal in 1998, estimated that 2 million of the relays in question are used by railroads around the world. Federal officials said the sticking of the relays has caused the railroad administration serious concern. They said railroads using the Alstom relays should inspect and test them, but they stopped short of requiring immediate repair or replacement.
Report comment to moderator
Puppy stuff for Kbells:
http://tinyurl.com/m2phz6
Report comment to moderator
Good morning everyone.
Here’s are a couple of questions for anyone who decides to answer:
1)What are your beliefs regarding pacifism, self-defense, etc.?
2)To give one instance: If an armed thug rushes at you, a family member, a friend, or anyone else, such as a jogger, what would you do?
For the pacifists out there, I’d like to see if you don’t believe in self-defense at all, like some at my church (in response to the second question, they say “we’ll just trust God”…I guess that means just stand there and hope for a miracle), or just don’t believe in killing someone…or even injuring someone.
If you’re either of the last two types, I suggest getting a sjambok from Cold Steel, or their Inferno pepper spray. One should be less-than-lethal, and the latter leaves no permanent damage.
Got to go now.
-Death to political correctness!
Report comment to moderator
Chas,
From what I’ve seen, too many people’s understanding of the end times come from trying to cram Scripture into the flawed, somewhat anti-Semitic dispensational model (which unbiblically tries to separate Gentile believers in Jesus from Jewish believers in Jesus, apparently for all eternity). Once the blinders of dispensationalism have been removed, end-times prophecy becomes far less complex, because it surely doesn’t fit the text very well and needs a lot of twisting to make it work!
I’m not very alert yet, and can’t discuss this intelligently, but for me, the very idea of a future seven-year Tribulation fell and shattered into little tiny pieces when I realized how little biblical evidence was taken (and twisted) just to fit a pre-tribulational, keep the church distinct from Israel at all costs, dispensational model. No, the church is the bride of Christ, those redeemed from every tribe and nation . . . including Israel. And the idea of a future Tribulation is based on, I think (again, my brain isn’t working yet) on a scant two passages that easily fit other understandings. (Large parts of Revelation already happened, between the time it was written and now, with the fall of Jerusalem, according to most historians who looked at the test before the pre-trib model came on the scene, from my understanding. And I’ll be quick to say that history isn’t my specialty. But I was shocked at how few passages the whole idea of a future Tribulation was propped up against, when I looked at the text with non-dispensational eyes.)
Among the Scripture twisting used by some dispensationalists is making “the bride of Christ” and “the wife of Christ” mean two different things. I grew up with dispensationalism, but am deeply unimpressed with the system now, after studying it a few years ago.
Report comment to moderator
I meant historians “who looked at the text” of course.
Report comment to moderator
It’s interesting how dispensationalism so dominates most of modern-day evangelical Christianity. Many Christians have never heard anything else. I’m with Cheryl on this, not a big fan of that whole “system” which I also think requires a fair amount of twisting, putting an “overlay” on Scripture to make it all work.
Our pastor shares about the time he was preaching from Revelation and literally stopped in the middle of the sermon when he realized he wasn’t sure he agreed with the commentary he was quoting.
He then spent a few years studying the entire subject and concluded that the post-mil position simply was closest to what the whole of Scripture taught.
I remember reading some of the dispensational writings in the 1980s and 1990s, it all seemed like it relied heavily on reading things into the passages. God’s people are one, the church existed in Old Testament times and is unbroken and not separated.
Like with some other things, the Bible doesn’t meticulously lay out the precise events of the end of times for us, so much of it remains shrouded. But believers can all agree on this: Jesus is coming again and that no one knows the time or hour. Our call? To be faithful and to be ready.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl, your experiance may be different, but the dispensationalists I know aren’y anti-semitic. Not all pre-trib people are dispensationalists, BTW. But they tend to agree with each other.
It’s just that I can’t find a justification in scripture for that particular viewpoint. My personal view is that there will be a Great Tribulation (many scriptures). I differ with many in that I believe Christians will go through the tribulation, but will be delivered pre wrath. Marvin Rosenthal believes that it will occur at the seventh seal. I think it will occur at the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15f, I Thess 4:1, I Cor. 15:52). God seldom delivers his people from the trials of the world, but always from his wrath.
Report comment to moderator
14. I wasn’t arguing with you. I was just asking what the story was.
Report comment to moderator
Chas, dispensationalism as a system claims to be the most pro-Jewish understanding, but it isn’t. First off is the most obvious: It gives Gentiles and Jews separate eternities! How pro-Jewish is that, really?! There are other issues, but ignoring Paul’s statement that there is no Jew nor Greek but we are all one in Christ is probably the biggest travesty for a system that pretends to be the most pro-Jew on the planet. And others have pointed out that it’s dispensationalism that has most of the living Jews killed in horrid ways during the end times.
My ultimate take on end-times prophecy is this: the Old Testament was filled with Messianic prophecies, many of them quite precise (where Jesus would be born, for instance). And yet the Jews were totally caught off guard when Jesus came, because they had given their own interpretations to the prophecies . . . and because God gave some unexpected twists to them. I don’t think one person actually expected the Messiah to be God Himself, for instance. But they were so focused on their own “systems” of interpretation that many missed the big event. My understanding is thus that prophecy isn’t really meant to be fully defined in advance; it’s supposed to make sense after it has been fulfilled.
Also, it seems to me that dispensationalism makes the mistake of reverting to many false understandings of the Jews. For instance, in insisting that we need a future earthly Millennium because the Jews need to have their land, dispensationalists buy into the misunderstanding that something other than Jesus is the key part of prophecy.
What an anticlimax a thousand-year Millennium seems to me now–a thousand years of sitting around on a still-imperfect earth just so that the Jews can have their land for a while, waiting for eternity to get started (and not being able to marry or live “normal” lives because we’re part of the redeemed, and only earthly people still participate in that kind of thing). It actually sounds quite hideous now when I think of it, a thousand years of dwelling in a still-imperfect world, waiting for the real eternity to start, and between now and then the bloodiest war in earth’s history, just because somehow Israel having the land seems more crucial to some dispensationalists than the reality of Christ fulfilling prophecy in Himself. (A thousand years? That’s 25 times as long as I’ve already lived!! And I’ll be single that whole time, and dealing with imperferfect people the whole time though I myself am perfected, and at the end the world’s bloodiest war? It doesn’t sound like anything to look forward to, honestly. Or at least, while it might be better than life today, it’s an awfully long time of waiting for eternity to start. And it seems to me that it very much takes the focus off of Christ and puts it back onto the nation of Israel in some weird anticlimax. No, the cross and the empty tomb are the climax of history, not Jews having / not having the land.)
Report comment to moderator
Chas, I will try to remember to ask your question. Anyway he did say that the book of Daniel is consider history not prophecy.
Report comment to moderator
And Chas, until a few years ago I’d never heard the viewpoint that the “great tribulation” actually took place in the first century, with the fall of Jerusalem, but it actually makes a lot of sense of the texts. I think we make a mistake when we assume that all of Revelation is future. It was future when it was written, but that doesn’t mean that none of it has yet happened now.
I’m not an expert on these things, by any means, and I don’t tend to remember details on them. But one of the most eye-opening books I ever read was called Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? (by Mathison I think, I forget his first name). I was a lifelong dispensationalist with a few nagging doubts (like the falseness of the “eternal Jew/ Gentile distinction”) when I started the book, a former dispensationalist when I finished it.
Report comment to moderator
Chery,
I’m sure if the dispensational view is correct, then you won’t be sitting around thinking “this is so boring/hideous” during the Millenium (because God’s ways are not our ways, and we will all have a better understanding after we receive our glorified bodies). 
Report comment to moderator
Oops.
*Cheryl (missed the “l” in my first post)
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl raised too many points to discuss here. But I believe that there will be a great tribulation, that Israel will turn to Christ, and that there will be a millenium. I am willing to discuss these one at a time. I can’t imagine the millenial rule of Christ to be an anticlimax. But a time when the Spirit of God will guide men and that the wolf will dwell with the lamb and that “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Is. 11:9-11. Also, note Is 11:11f “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people….;”
Report comment to moderator
The Bible says so much about this. It must be important. It’s beginning to look more important every day.
Report comment to moderator
Just popping in to say that I am alive and well…
Report comment to moderator
chas- very well said
Report comment to moderator
SteveAubrey #22- Of course it’s available in Cincinnati! But Colorado? This is cause for rejoicing.
Report comment to moderator
JJF: From your post #22, it seems that as of 2.5 years ago, Americans were much more satisfied with their health care than they were several years before that.
Report comment to moderator
Do you all prefer this pic or do you like my actual one? I figure since Cheryl has a Collie, and Donna has a Border Collie, I’d feature my dog who is 1/2 American Eskimo, 1/2 Border Collie (but has all the white coat of the AE).
Report comment to moderator
Jon, what’s the temperament of an AE/BC? It’s a nice pic, too, at least for a while.
All: on the Great Healthcare Debate … can I get an “Amen” from anyone that our present system has strengths and weaknesses? And that any replacements, whether Obama’s or an entirely one-payer plan, will have their own strengths and weaknesses?
This “debate” has been so aggravating, because it seems to consist solely of advocates of one sort or the other shouting their talking points while refusing to acknowledge that what they are proposing (to change, or to keep) will be a mixed bag of plusses and minuses.
I would be a lot more eager to listen to any advocate for any position if he would come forward with a case like, “I favor Option B over the present Option A, because B’s weak points C and D, while real and quantifiable in thus-and-such a way, are to be preferred to A’s weak points E and F, in the following ways …”
Report comment to moderator
Thanks Worthygirl. How did it go Saturday and Sunday?
Also, re: Israel.
David shall be king. Ezekiel 37:24f; Jeremiah. 23:5-6; 30:9; Hosea 3:5; Announcement of Gabriel, Lk. 1:32
Mary thought the promise was to Israel. Lk. 1:54
Zacharias thought that the messiah would deliver Israel. Lk. 1:71-74.
The disciples were still looking for the earthly kingdom. Acts 1:6. Jesus did not say they were wrong; he said it wasn’t their business.
Paul said that Israel will be saved. Romans 11.
Just some thoughts. There is too much here to ignore.
Report comment to moderator
Hi Kim. Sell another Condo.
Report comment to moderator
Rupzip, it’s obvious that the woman retired, considering what we’re experiencing now — when she’s needed the most. Yours was a most appropriate post not only for WMB — a Christian website — but for Whirled Views in particular.
Report comment to moderator
Cheryl: It seems that you didn’t get enough of the end-times discussion that some of us had the last time around (when was it – a year-and-a-half ago?). I think that Chas was away at the time.
I think that the Scriptures clearly teach that God has given specific promises and blessings for Israel, and specific promises and blessings for the Church. The body of Christ consists of believing Jews and Gentiles, but we shouldn’t confuse that truth with the roles of Israel and the Church.
In our previous discussion you claimed that all of the OT prophecies have already been fulfilled. Some unanswered questions that I had at the time concerning yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecy were these: Is Jerusalem the world’s capital? Does Israel possess ALL of the promised land? Has the Holy Spirit been poured out upon all flesh? Is there universal peace and prosperity? Has the curse been lifted from the animal kingdom, and removed from nature?
Report comment to moderator
Donna (31): …the church existed in Old Testament times…
What do you mean here? I have always understood that the Church began in the book of Acts.
Report comment to moderator
Tychicus, that’s new to me. I’ve never heard anyone say that all the OT prophecies have already been fulfilled. I could list several. In fact, several from Daniel, several from Isaiah, several from Ezekiel, etc.
The Church is the “called out assembly”. Technically, all God’s people are the “church”. However, you are correct in that the concept is a NT concept. There was no “assembly” in OT times. The synagogue developed during the captivity, but it was not a model for the church. It was a place where people met, though it also had political ramifications. Because to be “put out of the synagogue deprived a person of fellowship and livelihood. pretty close here, but not the same.
Report comment to moderator
The church did not exist in the Old Testament. The New Testament was an example, a model BEFORE Pentecost. Jesus Christ took HIS disciples and trained them during HIS time on earth, and then after HE arose from the dead HE again took them for forty days to teach them (Acts 1)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
Jesus is the foundation, the Church was built upon HIM. The nation of Israel was not a church. The passage above is the first time that a ‘Church’ is mentioned in the Bible. At no time did Jesus call Israel the Church. Those will believed that Christ was the Messiah then become part of the Church.
Report comment to moderator
Chas
There are over 250 prophecies which have been fulfilled so far.
Report comment to moderator
Chas,
The one thing I was once shown is that Revelation has alot of hear one thing, see another.
For instance where John hears a lion, but turns around and sees a lamb.
For me its an indication that at least things will not happen like we think they will, but to me its also quite possible that things will occur twice in a sense?
In other words history has a tendency to repeat itself, and the localized instances in the early church vs what may be a broader world wide scale later on in our future, may very well all fit with Revelation.
But I’m also a Pan-mil…it’ll all pan out in the end
Report comment to moderator
“At no time did Jesus call Israel the Church. Those will believed that Christ was the Messiah then become part of the Church.”
Quite picky about it arent ya?
I’d say that those Israelites who looked foward in faith to Christ’s coming…were no different than us looking back in faith to Christ having come. They are still apart of the “the church” as it represents the whole of christianity and those written in the book of life.
Take Paul who talks about marriage being a reflection of Christ and his bride, the church. That was still the principle of marriage since day 1.
In other words, the Israelites are just as much apart of the church as we are now. Well those who are actually OF Israel..so to speak.
Report comment to moderator
Jesus is called a Lion several places in Scripture, but HE appears as a Lamb, the Lamb of GOD.
Christ stands as Mediator between God and both ministers and people. He is called a Lion, but he appears as a Lamb slain. He appears with the marks of his sufferings, to show that he pleads for us in heaven, in virtue of his satisfaction. He appears as a Lamb, having seven horns and seven eyes; perfect power to execute all the will of God, and perfect wisdom to understand it, and to do it in the most effectual manner. Matthew Henry
Report comment to moderator
“Jon, what’s the temperament of an AE/BC? It’s a nice pic, too, at least for a while.”
A very happy, friendly dog. But FULL of energy and the need for attention. He has the Border Collie herding tendency with humans; always wants to be part of the pack, next to someone. Grooms (i.e., licks) quite a bit.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn – 56
YOU WRITE: “Quite picky about it arent ya?”
The Church is never mentioned until the New Testament – If you study the Scriptures you will see that the church had not come to fruition until Christ died on the Cross.
It is Jesus Christ’s blood that purchased the church not the sacrifices in the OT.
Report comment to moderator
The “pan-mils’ have been correct in practice for many years in that the promise has not yet been fulfilled. However, – and this is the only reason I believe that the pre-post-mid trib rapture issue is important is that not being aware of it will find us asleep when the time comes. (I Thess. 5:6-9). The Oliviet discourse was given primarily to warn the disciples, as Jesus did in Matthew 24:32-25:46. Several parables here, but they all say the same thing:
Watch!
Report comment to moderator
Yes, but does Christ blood not cover those Israelites as well? Then those Israelites are now apart of that church…dead or alive.
Who died for Moses, but Christ? Is Moses apart of the church? Yes.
What about Rahab? What about Melkizadech(sp?)?
All apart of the church.
Report comment to moderator
I agree with you Chas, and its always fun to think about it. Being right or wrong about it, I dont worry too much about it cause its very pictoral.
I think the trump will resound and the sky will be torn back in a sense though. I dont think there will be any mistaking the coming of Christ.
Report comment to moderator
“But I’m also a Pan-mil…it’ll all pan out in the end
Report comment to moderator
Thorn
In the OT, no one was saved, however their sins were covered due to their sacrifices of animals. The final sacrifice is Christ on the Cross — Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28 — which not only proves the point but brings up proof of Christ being Deity after all the church was purchased with GOD’s own blood.
It’s by FAITH – The LORD didn’t change how HE saved people in the NT – Those who lived before Christ in the OT were looking for the Messiah, it was by faith that they waited – They looked ahead for HIS coming, we as Believers look at the Cross and wait from HIM to come – from the past looked forward, we by faith look forward as well – both by faith.
Report comment to moderator
It isn’t the trump that I’m concerned about. It’s that the man of sin (Beast, antichrist) will appear and we not be prepared. II Thess. 2:3, “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there be a fallinga away first, that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
The falling away may be happening.
Report comment to moderator
Chas – I believe the “falling away” has begun to take place. I am a Dispensationalist (pre-trib) – not sure that those of us who are -caught up in the air- will know who the antichrist is, since he comes right around that time.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn, yes, the blood of Christ covers the Old Testament saints, and they were justified by their faith in looking forward to Christ’s coming. However, they did not become born again and receive the Holy Spirit; they did not receive a new nature. The Church, the Body of Christ, is made up of New Testament regenerated saints who have believed on Him and received the Holy Spirit.
Report comment to moderator
#25 Karen,
First of all, I am not here to please people or displease people. I say what I think about what I read, and people can ignore it, or agree with it, or disagree with it, and so on.
As far as I can tell, prayer is a way of expressing your appreciation and gratitude toward God. If that is meaningful to you, that is fine. I find it difficult to believe that anyone believes that God is going to arrange anything tangibly different than He intends already because you are praying. I imagine at any given time, millions of people are praying about the President of the United States and hoping that he will act in a way compatible with their hopes and values as Christians in how he leads this country.
Even if you think this has anything to do with what actually happens to us and our country, I can’t imagine that it makes any difference whether a person praying in this regard is in the White House or on my island in Puget Sound or in Texas, or whereever. To think there is something special about a charwoman praying over the President’s chair in the white house as opposed to you praying as you read Google News or whatever, is the most arrant sentimentality, something like Catholics hoarding a Saints’ bones or relics.
If you find this meaningful, as I presume you do, my scoffing will roll off your back like water off a duck.
Report comment to moderator
I’m the opposite of Cheryl, as I was raised with amillenialist teaching but became a premillenialist and dispensationalist through my own study.
Report comment to moderator
I make no stand. I am of the opinion that we have a propensity to misaprehend prophecy.
The disciples didn’t get it. They didn’t understand, nor did they have an reason to, that the suffering servant, the son of man, and the messiah were all the same person. They thought Jesus was going to overthrow Rome, free them from the oppressors, and the Jesus would set up his own Jewish Kingdom right there on earth, and they’d get to get in on the ground floor. Obviously they were quite wrong. In retrospect they understood…
I’m quite sure there are a lot of things we think we know about future events, that we’ll be wrong about, simply because we don’t have enough information.
I’ll watch what unfolds.
Report comment to moderator
Paula #43 – seriously, that might explain the new plant they’re building. Increasing their geographic coverage means they have to increase their production capacity.
And yes, in the overall scheme of things, I’m much happier to be sharing ice cream with Colorado than to have Colorado share beer with Cincinnati.
Report comment to moderator
MiM (70): Quite true. The moment that Jesus Christ returns, it will all become very clear. The concept of the Gospel, on the other hand…
Report comment to moderator
Sawgunner: What I understood was the DC metro folks were cited and told to fix a problem. No evidence it was ever done. No evidence that any punitive action was ever imposed.
OK, I had heard nothing of the sort when I responded earlier, but now I think I know what this is about. It seems that while the system was never cited or ordered to do anything, the National Transportation Safety Board strongly advised to replace some older cars … which is, obviously, not cheap. (The WMATA is notoriously one of the less-competently managed mass transit systems in the country.)
NTSB has no power to order anything, so it was just filed away and ignored, basically. Here is the most recent article I’ve seen as the investigation continues and the facts get sorted out better.
Report comment to moderator
Tychichus,
I don’t have time to get into this, but I’ll briefly address just a few things from your post 50 (after copying it below for convenience):
Cheryl: It seems that you didn’t get enough of the end-times discussion that some of us had the last time around (when was it – a year-and-a-half ago?). I think that Chas was away at the time.
I think that the Scriptures clearly teach that God has given specific promises and blessings for Israel, and specific promises and blessings for the Church. The body of Christ consists of believing Jews and Gentiles, but we shouldn’t confuse that truth with the roles of Israel and the Church.
CD: I agree with this paragraph–Israel wasn’t all believers. But I don’t think that God continues to deal separately with Israel after their rejection of His Messiah, not in the way dispensationalists believe He does. That is, I don’t think He’ll let them be massacred, but I don’t think they’re “God’s chosen people” anymore–the church is, and believing Israel is part of it.
In our previous discussion you claimed that all of the OT prophecies have already been fulfilled. Some unanswered questions that I had at the time concerning yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecy were these: Is Jerusalem the world’s capital? Does Israel possess ALL of the promised land? Has the Holy Spirit been poured out upon all flesh? Is there universal peace and prosperity? Has the curse been lifted from the animal kingdom, and removed from nature?
Briefly, there’s a distinction between Israel (the nation) and believing Israel. Believing Israel is part of the church, or there’s much violence done to Scripture (that we’re all part of the one olive plant / vine, for just one example). We don’t have separate futures; in Christ, all believers are one, Jew and Gentile alike.
No, I never said all OT prophecy has been fulfilled. I did say that prophecies about Israel’s land were fulfilled, and I may have even said that the dispensational idea that God has to stop history for 1,000 years in the future to fulfill a prophecy of Israel being in the land forever seems weird to me–if it wasn’t fulfilled already, why does some temporary fulfillment in the end times add anything? The land quite simply is a secondary issue, and besides, Scripture clearly says (I forget the reference) that Israel had “all” the land. (There’s a passage that uses “all” six or eight times in a couple of verses–it seems to me that “literal” dispensationalists should read that sort of repetition literally.)
As to the Millennium, I don’t think there’s any real way to read it literally. For instance, the idea of the curse being lifted from the animal kingdom: Scripture makes it quite clear that Christ’s human subjects will obey outwardly, but inwardly they’re looking for a chance to rebel, and they take that chance at the end. So it seems a little unlikely that the curse has been removed from some parts of creation and not others.
Again, only the briefest of answers, because I simply don’t have extra time this week. My basic thought on prophecy is that trying to figure out all the details ahead of time is unwise. That’s not its purpose. And dispensationalists have, unfortunately, turned Revelation into a B-level horror movie and lost what seems clearly to be its real chief theme: the victory of Jesus Christ. We don’t need to figure out the details. We need to know that Jesus wins.
Report comment to moderator
In re 64
Thats exactly what I said. So my point is simply, that we are just as much Abraham’s descendents as Abraham is apart of the church, now.
If the qualifications for being in the true church are simply that God has saved you and set you free from sin, then all OT believers in Christ are just as much apart of the church now.
When they died, has no bearing on eternal things, for they are not dead in the least.
From Matt Y.
“The Church, the Body of Christ, is made up of New Testament regenerated saints who have believed on Him and received the Holy Spirit.”
Yes, and because of Christ’s work on the cross, it is now extended to all those who came before as well. The body of Christ is composed of all saints, present, past and future.
Christ discusses being born again with Nicodemus..well before he hung on the cross. Paul describes marriage as a reflection of Christ and his church, but marriage is established from the very beginning. Adam and Eve were just as much a part of the church, as we are now.
Report comment to moderator
My basic thought on prophecy is that trying to figure out all the details ahead of time is unwise. That’s not its purpose. And dispensationalists have, unfortunately, turned Revelation into a B-level horror movie and lost what seems clearly to be its real chief theme: the victory of Jesus Christ. We don’t need to figure out the details. We need to know that Jesus wins.
Well put.
Report comment to moderator
Re 75 -
I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. It depends on whether you think “the Church” includes all the redeemed from all ages, or just those who have been born again and received the Holy Spirit in the Church Age (New Testament times). Yes marriage was instituted from the beginning, but marriage was a type of the then-future relationship between Christ and the church. Jesus said, “On this rock I will build my church,” i.e., future.
Report comment to moderator
Those who are Jewish are Abraham’s descendents, those who are Gentiles are not. Jews are still Jews, Gentiles have not become Jews or descendents of Abraham because they believe in the Messiah Jesus as Savior.
Report comment to moderator
Adding to Post 88 –
Those who are Jews who accept Jesus as Savior are still Jews, they haven’t lost their Jewishness.
Report comment to moderator
Believing Israel is part of the church, or there’s much violence done to Scripture (that we’re all part of the one olive plant / vine, for just one example).
Yes I agree. But this says nothing about future prophecies and promises that yet apply to ethnic Israel. God still has something in store for them because of the promises he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He has not abandoned His promises; Israel is still His chosen nation (Romans 11:28-29; Jeremiah 31:35-37; Jeremiah 33:23-26).
As for “different futures,” I’m not sure what the typical dispensational teaching is; I think Jews will dwell in Palestine under the rule of their long-awaited Messiah descended from the Davidic line. But we all, Jews and Gentiles, will reign with Him, so I don’t know that our futures will be different as far as status.
Regarding the millenial kingdom, I don’t know how you can not interpret it literally. “The wolf will dwell with the lamb” (Isaiah 11), and prophecies thus far have been fulfilled in a mostly literal manner. For just a couple examples, Jesus was born in literal Bethlehem in literal Judah (Micah 5:2); he rode into literal Zion (Jerusalem) on a literal donkey, and the people literally rejoiced (Zechariah 9:9). Yes, there are symbols in prophecy, but this is revealed by the context – not by a systematic covenant theology reinterpreting them thousands of years later. For example, earlier in Isaiah 11, it was prophesied, “A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.” Now, people don’t usually produce branches; furthermore, the Branch is given human qualities in following verses, so the Branch is clearly symbolic of a person. (Oh, and the Branch descended from literal Jesse). The little horn in Daniel 7 and the beasts in Revelation 13 are also given human qualities.
And there is no way to square the amillenial view with Revelation 20. It just falls apart.
Report comment to moderator
Matt – good post!
Report comment to moderator
“Those who are Jewish are Abraham’s descendents, those who are Gentiles are not. Jews are still Jews, Gentiles have not become Jews or descendents of Abraham because they believe in the Messiah Jesus as Savior.”
Romans 10:
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Apparently there is no distinction. You can continue on to Romans 15:8 where Paul reminds us with a few OT passages about Gentiles.
Hebrews 11:
12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
As was told to Nicodemus, why do you only think in a physical sense Victoria? Moses, Noah, Adam, David, Samuel…and the list goes on are all apart of the church, the kingdom of God. You, me, every other true christian is apart of “innumerable grains of sand”…which all make up the church as well.
For that is what Israel is simply a reflection of, the kingdom of God, just like the church. The qualifications are the same. The applications are the same, all the people, are the same.
Report comment to moderator
“It depends on whether you think “the Church” includes all the redeemed from all ages,”
Yes. Christ work on the cross extended foward and backward. It applies to all, Jew and Gentile the same way. What we are discussing are those who are truly saved. For not all of Israel is of Israel, just like not all in church on a sunday morning are truly of the Church.
“Yes marriage was instituted from the beginning, but marriage was a type of the then-future relationship between Christ and the church.”
Aye, so God already has Israel planned to be that same representation, which we represent as well now, because there is yet our true home to come. It’s all the same because Christ’s work applies the same across time and works on an eternal, not just temporary physical scale.
If Moses was walking the earth today, would you consider him apart of the church? yes, and considering he’s not dead anyway, why should that be any different? He’s apart of the church, just like you and me.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn
There is no distinction between Jew or Greek when one comes to know Jesus Christ as Savior – that doesn’t mean that the Jew isn’t a Jew anymore. You’re mixing up their heritage with being Born Again – this happens so often when people take Romans 10 and try to, so to speak un-Jewish the Jews.
Report comment to moderator
What we see now, is a rise just as it was just before Hitler and Nazi Germany to make such a pronouncement that the Church is Spiritual Israel which is FALSE. Israel (Jews) are not just spiritual, they are a people whom GOD made and EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH
“that doesn’t mean that the Jew isn’t a Jew anymore. You’re mixing up their heritage with being Born Again – this happens so often when people take Romans 10 and try to, so to speak un-Jewish the Jews.”
That’s not waht I’m saying. I’m just as much still American as a Jew is still a Jew. But the Jew is no longer just a Jew, nor should he just be a Jew. Christ has died and risen again.
I’m not making Jews less Jewish, I’m stating that Jews who are saved by Jesus are apart of the Church. Just like, I am no less a descendent of Abraham just as Rahab is considered. The physical DNA does not matter, because the covenant is not simply physical.
So please understand my point and quit turning it into something else.
I’m not saying “a pronouncement that the Church is Spiritual Israel”
I’m saying that Israel was the early representation for the church, God’s people, his kingdom. Because that is all the Church is, but God’s people, his kingdom, of which every true Isrealite is apart of now and forever.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn,
Your inclusion of all Old Testament saints in the Church (rather than simply all of God’s people from all ages) ignores the difference: They were not born again, they were not regenerated with a new nature and did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them to guide them at all times. This is what separates Christians (the church), from God’s people in the Old Testament.
I agree that Christ’s work applies the same across time, and all are and were saved by faith. Old Testament saints, however, were required to offer sacrifices as an outward expression of their faith in a future Redeemer. Obedience and faith were valued more highly, but the requirement was still there. We are not required to do so; this is another difference.
I would consider Moses to be part of the Church today only if he was born again and indwelt with God’s Spirit. That is the requirement for this age, and it is an advantage that we have over the OT faithful.
What did you mean by “considering he’s not dead anyway”? By that standard, nobody is dead. Unless you’re thinking of Enoch and Elijah, who never died; but Moses died, and God buried him.
Report comment to moderator
Thorn,
Jesus Himself used the “He’s not dead anyway” line when He pointed out that calling God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob assumed God to be the God of the living, not the dead. He was disputing with the Sadducees about the resurrection, but I don’t remember the reference. But based on that one text alone, it’s completely legitimate to say that those who are “asleep” in the Lord are not dead.
Your dstinctions between the “church” and Old Testament saints seems trivial, by the way. “Church” simply means “assembly” and is not indued with some uniquely holy meaning. But all believers are in Christ, part of His body, part of His bride–whether they lived before or after He lived. There are no second-class believers, and “the church age” is an artificial, unbiblical, and unhelpful distinction.
Report comment to moderator
Sorry, the above post is responding to Matt Y. I’m in a hurry.
Report comment to moderator
Those of the OT are different from those of the NT – not all Scripture which referred to means both OT and NT, New Testament being those who are Born Again, filled with the Holy Spirit. One must look at the TEXT which is cited and then decide how it applies to OT and NT Believers.
Report comment to moderator
The passage below is for those who are Believers in Christ, they are New Testament Believers not to be confused with those of the Old Testament under the LAW and animal sacrifices. The KEY to this passage is “Christ be in you” -
If the Spirit be in us, Christ is in us. He dwells in the heart by faith. Grace in the soul is its new nature; the soul is alive to God, and has begun its holy happiness which shall endure for ever. The righteousness of Christ imputed, secures the soul, the better part, from death. From hence we see how much it is our duty to walk, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Matthew Henry
Report comment to moderator
back to topJoin The Conversation
You need to be a registered user of WORLDonTheWeb.com to "join the conversation."
If you are not a member yet, what are you waiting for? Register / Login Now!