Liberty’s champion

For the non-Calvinists or anti-Calvinists among us who may have worried that the July 4 issue of WORLD had several articles about John Calvin or that this blog featured a number of posts about the Reformer this week, be not afraid: It happens only once every 500 years. Today brings the 500th anniversary of John Calvin’s birth—and the great theologian, even with his warts, deserves a better press than he has typically received in recent decades.
Calvin was a fallen sinner, as all of us are, but was he especially mean-spirited? He taught that God created the world out of love and loved the world so much that Christ came down from the glorious kingdom of heaven and plunged into this world’s muck. Calvin saw God as a generous giver and His mercy as an abundant resource. Jehovah’s Witnesses would later insist that heaven has room for only 144,000, but Calvin understood that God’s grace is infinite.
Did Calvin emphasize in-group harshness toward the poor and the alien? No: He wrote, “We cannot but behold our own face as it were in a glass in the person that is poor and despised . . . though he were the furthest stranger in the world. Let a Moor or a barbarian come among us, and yet inasmuch as he is a man, he brings with him a looking glass wherein we may see that he is our brother and neighbor.” Everyone is created in God’s image and worthy of respect.
Did Calvin want us to abstain from all material pleasures? He wrote that God “meant not only to provide for necessity but also for delight and good cheer. . . . Has the Lord clothed the flowers with the great beauty that greets our eyes, the sweetness of smell that is wafted upon our nostrils, and yet will it be unlawful for our eyes to be affected by that beauty, or our sense of smell by the sweetness of that odor?” He opposed any doctrine that “deprives us of the lawful fruit of God’s beneficence.”
Calvin also opposed doctrines that deprive us of political liberty. His understandings—that God-given laws are superior to those of the state, the king, and any other institution, and that individuals have direct access to the Bible, without dependence on pope or priest—are common now, but compare them to the political and theological theories fashionable before his time. In ancient times, pagan states revered leaders as semi-divine. Those who argued with such bosses were seen as deserving death. In medieval times, the interpretations of church officials often trumped the words of the Bible itself (which few people could read). They identified God’s kingdom on earth with a church monopoly, and hanged, burned, or decapitated some with other ideas.
Calvin and other Reformation leaders, though, separated church and state while emphasizing the importance of believers working to lead the state. Calvin contended that, since God reigns everywhere, His followers should be entrepreneurs in every strategic institution, including government, civil society, commerce, media, law, education, the church, and the arts. This emphasis led directly to what has become known as the “Protestant ethic,” with its unleashing of individual initiative and its emphasis on hard work in purportedly secular areas. Many kinds of labor are equally worthy, Calvin argued, and those in charge of one activity should not dictate to others.
Calvin’s writings also had an implicit anti-statism. Since fundamental law comes from God, obeying the law means obeying God, not necessarily the state. Rebellion against an unlawful state act, led by “lesser magistrates” such as local leaders, is really a justifiable maintenance of true law. One Calvin disciple in 1579 wrote Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (”Vindication Against Tyrants”), which emphasized the limits of power.
Would freedom ring? The English jurist Blackstone called “the power and jurisdiction of Parliament transcendent and absolute . . . sovereign and uncontrollable.” English lawyers joked that “Parliament can do everything except make a woman a man, or a man a woman.” (Some of our jurists and legislators are more ambitious.) But generation after generation of Calvinists read Vindiciae and emphasized that government must be under God. According to John Adams, its doctrines greatly influenced Americans of the 1760s and 1770s.
Calvin’s birthday comes six days after the Independence Day that owes much to his teaching. Bake a cake and know that Calvin was not against enjoying it.
RELATED ARTICLES AND VIDEO COMMENTARIES:
“America’s debt to John Calvin: The personal pervasiveness of God’s sovereignty,” by John Piper (WORLD, July 4, 2009)
“Sticking by the Bible: A 500th birthday biography of Calvin shows complex man with singular belief,” by Marvin Olasky (WORLD, July 4, 2009)
“Holiday reading: Two views of America and some worthwhile investigations of John Calvin,” by Marvin Olasky (WORLD, July 4, 2009)
Video: “Why Marvin Olasky?” by John Piper and Marvin Olasky
Video: “What Calvin teaches us about writing,” by Marvin Olasky
Video: “Calvin and Servetus,” by Marvin Olasky
Video: “Calvin and politics,” by Marvin Olasky
Video: “How Calvin influenced WORLD Magazine,” by Marvin Olasky
Video: “How The King’s College expresses the Reformed worldview,” by Marvin Olasky
Video: “Christians as salt in the world,” by Marvin Olasky




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back to top78 Comments to “Liberty’s champion”
I think Dr. Olasky should consider seriously that what was written in the Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos was not authentic Calvinism (what Calvin himself believed) but “living Calvinism.” Calvin most certainly did NOT believe lesser magistrates could “rebel” against the King. Rather, he believed lower magistrates could REMOVE a King pursuant a PROCESS already carved out in the governing POSITIVE LAW. This is not unlike the Constitutional provisions for Congress impeaching and removing the President. They are NOT “rebelling” against the President. Calvin was against rebellion period. And, according to his own principles, he would have supported the British during the American revolution. Calvin was one of the strongest believers in NO RIGHT to REBEL AGAINST TYRANTS.
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Did we celebrate Martin Luther’s birthday this much?
(Lutherans want to know).
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Michelle (can’t say or write that song without hearing Paul McCartney singing it in my noggin)
We are all Lutherans to one extent or another.
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Michelle,
Interesting you should ask that. I, as a Lutheran (not of the ELCA derivation) have wondered that same question. But I have to remind myself that the vast majority of America’s evangelical Christian publishing is coming from that reformed perspective. I value Calvin’s broad benefit to the church and am grateful for it. But it does sadden me that much of the ground-breaking benefit that Luther brought has been overshadowed by the liberalism that has come through those who claim his name.
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MICHELLE: The short answer is that WORLD and WORLDmag.com didn’t exist in 1983, Luther’s 500 birthday.
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Did his Anabaptist contemporaries celebrate his birthday?
Did they think of him as liberty’s champion?
Did he champion liberty for Anabaptists?
(I guess I’m too lazy and/or care-less and/or busy to find the answers on my own.)
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WorldMag needs to tell us about the relationship between American Calvinism and The Family, the secret cult of fundamentalist autocrats who are “at the heart” of political power. http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060560053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247241448&sr=1-1
This fundamentalist Opus Dei may not represent tyranny strictly speaking, but a faction of actors who think God chose them to be little Pol Pots doesn’t seem like much of an improvement, to me.
What’s up with Sen. Coburn’s immunity from answering questions about things he’s previously discussed with the media?
Inclusion of the poor in the government’s promotion of the general welfare is both fair and Constitutional. Promotion of the general welfare isn’t “statism” nor is it incompatible with liberty and justice for all.
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Oh wait conspiracy theories now? LOL
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LOL indeed.
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We at least Dr. Olasky’s post rightly informs us that Blackstone was NOT the principle ideological force behind the Founding. He was an English Tory who was against the American Revolution and preached Parliament Supremacy. The Founding Fathers were, at heart, rationalists who believed man’s reason could pick and choose whatever it saw “rational” from all world history sources including the Bible, Calvin, Blackstone, Arminus, Socinius, Arius, Aristotle, Cicero, Seneca, Socrates, etc. etc., and discard whatever in those sources “reason” deemed “irrational.”
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The happy birthday post above with all the highlights, links are all well and good if Calvin is the center, however there certainly wasn’t a big deal over Christ’s Birthday, CHRISTMAS last December (yes I know, we don’t know the exact date of Christ’s birth) Who is at the center here at WMB? Christ barely gets a mention during Christmas however Calvin with his warts? (is that what we call it now) gets a huge splash not to mention we should all bake a cake – very sad when it is CHRIST who died for our sins, it’s the Bible that speaks to man’s heart, not the man Calvin.
Since it’s Calvin’s birthday, we have a number of threads to chose from in his honor – When I checked the line-up for Christmas 12-24-09 this is what I found – the exact line-up as of December 24, 2008 12:13 PM, Christmas Eve. Two frivolous threads – two extra added – Mobile manger and The Christmas letter no editorial furor, no links — 0 –
Better to demonstrate than berate
Channeling Lincoln
Lone Ranger: U.S. is only western nation to refuse to condemn laws that criminalize homosexuality
Something Light: Cyber Scrabble
Taking the hick out of the word “evangelical”
Whirled Views 12.23
From out of the darkness
Something Light: Childhood Christmas
Sobriety test
The need to worry
Illinois’ morning after pill
White House accuses NYTimes of “gross negligence”
Recession reducing divorce
Death by location
Baby Palin due
The death of the Good Samaritan
If we can’t do mangers
Reining in Bill
It’s a terrifying life
Is the pope Catholic?
Dating’s demise
Do men hurt?
Rick Warren on gay marriage vs. divorce
Warren says Obama has “courage”
Congress gets a raise
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MATTY, RINGBEARER– I’m talking about the intellectual and emotional influence of Jonathan Edwards upon an organization that WorldMag has reported on, not about a conspiracy.
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Allegations about a secret cult at the heart of political power whose agenda is not “much of an improvement” over tyranny? No, no, not a conspiracy theory at all!
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Ok, Matt Y, I’ll revise it: An autocracy of divinely elected politicians who admire totalitarian supermen is a vast improvement over an actual tyranny.
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Well as the discussion here and in other threads clearly shows (c.f. comments on servetus) it would seem that as a minimum Calvin did not believe in religious freedom as we think of it in America today. In this sense at least it does not appear that Calvin was a champion of liberty.
Perhpas I overstate the belief in religious freedom today, however. If one looks at some of the posts in this blog it would appear that true religious freedom is not looked on by some with favor.
Hmmm, is there perhaps a relationship between these examples of distaste for religious freedom, and Calvin?
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Scroop – Sharlet is looking for conspiracies, and should be read with a block of salt. Jonathan Edwards? Dick Halverson? World Vision is a CIA front?
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MOUNTAINEER —
The Family is a secretive organization. Members of Congress who belong/ed to the family say it’s secret. There’s nothing wrong with that. Citizens have the right to form secret associations (although Evangelicals at one time were dead set against them).
Secret organizations are not conspiracies unless they are devoted to illegal activities. Sharlet doesn’t try to claim that The Family is involved in criminal activities. His criticism is that The Family is devoted to undemocratic (small d) principles of government.
The right-wing rap against Sharlet so far seems to consist of three lines of attack. 1.) The very high quality of reporting makes the book especially reprehensible, because it shows the public an ugly picture. 2.) Sharlet’s reading of Jonathan Edwards is not Olasky’s reading, so it’s wrong. 3.) There possibly could be plausible excuses and ameliorations for the teachings, practice, and historical record of The Family. None of these attacks seem to have much positive going for them, but if truth is on their side, WorldMag bloggers will come up with something better, doubtlessly.
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hmmm, based on the present news materials, it would not see m that:
- the Family will remain secret much longer
- the Family will maintain their reputation in the upcoming media frenzy
A typical response would be to come clean (or at least reasonably clean) to forestall the rumors.
Nah, will never happen.
And you think scroop is being a conspiracy theorist???
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Olasky writes:
“Calvin contended that, since God reigns everywhere, His followers should be entrepreneurs in every strategic institution, including government, civil society, commerce, media, law, education, the church, and the arts.”
While it is certainly true that God reigns everywhere, I think we also know that, because of the gift of Free Will, there are aspects of Creation that do not receive God’s full protection — where, by choice, His full reign isn’t exercised.
Under the New Covenant we are informed that Satan is the Ruler or Prince of this fallen Age. We readily acknowledge this, of course, when we need to explain why disease, natural disasters and death are a part of Creation. But we should also pay attention to Christ’s temptations in the Wilderness, where Satan offers Jesus powers over the nations of this world. Satan insists these powers are his to give. And Christ not only grants him this claim (by not refuting it), but He also refuses to take the reigns of worldly power (i.e. political and nationalistic power). Worldly power is thus painted in Scripture as a temptation to Christ’s followers.
Christ’s kingdom is spread through peaceful, self-sacrificial service to the world. That was Jesus’ example to us. Even as He hung on the cross, He sought forgiveness for those who has unjustly put Him there.
This is completely counter to the way our fallen world operates. The world doesn’t see the “power” in Jesus’s kind of self-sacrificial service. But Christians should understand this sort of power. It’s the power that broke Death’s claim to Creation. It was a Deeper Magic, as C.S. Lewis labeled it (allegorically) in The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.
And when Christians choose to give their lives to Christ, to live as He lived; and to serve sinners sacrificially rather than to try to rule over them, the spiritual power that is unleashed is doubtlessly incredible.
So, I can’t go along with Calvin when he argues that Christians should take the reins of government. I think we ignore Jesus’ lesson to us in the Wilderness if we do so. Getting involved in government is to dive head first into an aspect of Creation that is heavily influenced by Satan while this Age lasts. Jesus refused to do it, and so should we.
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A champion of words, I am weary of them, words that wear you down,
Truth is demonstrated in the life, by the life, actions, helping the poor, true religion,
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WWJCD?
What would John Calving do??
He would contribute to history in his context.
What are you doing/what am I doing, to the glory of God, to contribute to history where we are?
I got sick of being in churches where we couldn’t think a thought that was not John Calvin’s own. I am so sorry, but GOD gave ME a brain and I am to use it!!
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Satan offers Jesus powers over the nations of this world. Satan insists these powers are his to give.
You’re arguing Satan wouldn’t have made a phony offer, because Jesus knew who actually had title to the kingdoms of the earth, and was not about to buy the Brooklyn Bridge, no matter how many days and nights He fasted in the wilderness.
Nevertheless, the “Brooklyn Bridge” is bought and sold all the time, under different rubrics. Call it hostile take-overs, leveraged buy-outs, or derivatives. The kingdoms of the earth may have been a toxic asset, but there was still big money and power in it, and a lot of souls in the bargain. Jesus and Satan together could have made their own market, and shut God out of whatever claim He still could defend. God had been in centuries of quiet decline by that time, and His promises to watch over His people as well as His threats to stop the world He claimed to have created, were looking pretty remote.
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Douglas:
You mention “the gift of Free Will” and suggest that where Satan reigns, God does not. “His full reign isn’t exercised” in this world apparently.
Perhpas it would be well to consider Pilate. In John 19, Pilate wonders why Jesus isn’t responding to his questions and asks Jesus, “Do you not know I have the power to crucify or to release you?”
Jesus responds by reminding Pilate he would have no power over Him at all if it were not given to him from above.
Or in the opening chapters of Job, where despite the devil’s desires and accusations, he still must ultimately submit to God’s decree.
Or of the demon possessed man named Legion. The demons ask Jesus’ permission to go into the swine. They begged Him.
Or of the disciples recognizing Jesus’ power over the wind and the waves.
Or of Pharaoh and his God-given hard heart.
Or of Esther and God’s sovereignty even in Haman’s evil plotting.
Or of Joseph’s “evil” treatment by his brothers, where Joseph admits “God MEANT it for good.”
Or Paul’s “messenger of Satan” that was ordained of Christ to keep the Apostle in check and dependent on God’s grace.
I would hate to think, even for a second Douglas, that there was some aspect of this fallen world where God was not totally, sovereignly ruling.
Romans 8:28, as well. ALL THINGS work together for good…which means God is sovereignly orchestrating and intending things “for good”.
And demonstrated by these and many other passages of Scripture, I would conclude that we are not in possession of “Free Will”. We are either slaves to Christ (which is only by grace) or slaves to sin (which is our natural condition from birth). From what is our will free? Free from what?
Also, Satan is full of wrath because for starters, he knows he has a limited amount of time and even in his rebellion, still must serve God.
God rules everywhere. There is not one sphere or realm where His reign is diminished.
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24 OldHickory68 writes…
I would conclude that we are not in possession of “Free Will”. We are either slaves to Christ (which is only by grace) or slaves to sin (which is our natural condition from birth). From what is our will free?
My view is that the Fall itself is evidence of our free will. God insists that we choose Him, or that we don’t. The fact that Satan didn’t, and the fact that we didn’t (in Eden) points to our freedom to choose to get Life from God — or from elsewhere.
In fact, my view of Love is that it cannot be coerced. It must be a choice. And so, when God asks that we “Love” Him first, He is asking that we choose to love Him above all other things. This is the first of the 10 Commandments, as well as the first clause in Jesus’ summary of the Law, because it’s the most fundamental reason for our Fall. We chose our own counsel over and against God’s.
Under the New Covenant, Grace offers cleanses our senses a bit. It allows us to perceive that we have a choice to make. It doesn’t eliminate our fallen natures completely — not by a long shot. But it allows our free will enough clarity to reconsider our choice before the Fall — before we became complete slaves to sin for an age (the age of the Old Covenant).
On the one hand, we cannot choose God without His help. But on the other, He is not “helping” us to the point of coercion. He is improving our state just enough to allow us to make a genuine choice.
So I, like you, believe God is the sovereign ruler of Creation. This sovereignty is complete and entirely thorough. However, because God insists that we truly Love Him, and because Love — genuine Love! — is only possible if it is the result of a choice, God has gifted us free will.
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Douglas (25), I could not agree with you more. In fact, I could have written your response if I were as clear as you are. I can also imagine that you are a reader of C S Lewis (as I am) because he thinks like you. Lewis says in one place: “God cannot ravish, He can only woo.” The language is somewhat dated but I believe we understand it. In one of Lewis’s space trilogy stories he imagines a planet very recently populated only by one man and one woman, but neither of them has sinned. The woman is confronted by an emissary of Satan who tempts her as Satan tempted Eve in the Garden. Her priceless reply, “How could I not but love Him [the Lord],” defeats her enemy.
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Allen (26)…
Yes, no question I’m a fan of C.S. Lewis. And, thanks to Lewis, I’ve recently added George MacDonald to my list of favorite Christian authors. I started with The Maiden’s Bequest, the Minister’s Restoration, the Laird’s Inheritance: Three Novels in One Volume. An amazing collection of novels! I highly recommend it. The Maiden’s Bequest is particularly powerful for anyone who has a daughter.
I’m also getting into MacDonald’s Unspoken Sermons and fantasy books.
Thanks, Allen, for your compliments…!
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Douglas, I am unfamiliar with the MacDonald novels you mentioned, although I have some of his other books. Lewis himself had great admiration for MacDonald and pays him high tribute in The Great Divorce.
A small correction to my earlier thread (26): I knew my quote came from Perelandra but I searched high and low for it before finding this: “How can we not obey what we love?” p. 116 (Macmillan Publishing Edition, 1974.)
It’s always good to meet another individual who enjoys C S Lewis.
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It’s always good to meet another individual who enjoys C S Lewis.
You bet!
Say… going back up to my post at 25, I’d like to add something. And I can’t remember if I read it in C.S. Lewis or heard it somewhere else. It concerns our call to love God first in our lives.
We are not called to love our wives, husbands, family, friends, etc., any less than we already do. That is, we are not to replace those people with God. We are to allow God’s Spirit to “grow” our capacity for love to the point that our love for Him surpasses all of our other loves.
But our other loves remain every bit as deep and genuine as they ever were.
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Douglas:
Thanks for your thoughtful and courteous replies. You have very clearly articulated the doctrine of prevenient grace and C.S. Lewis’ Anglican/Armenian theology.
I would perhaps assume you are familiar with the Reformed position on free will, given your understanding of what you’ve mentioned.
I will concur with you about Adam’s choice. But once sin entered the picture, that freedom was lost.
From my limited understanding of it, if what you say is true, then Christ’s death was simply a “help” to our already “free” nature, rather than a “rescue”. But after the fall, Scripture is expicit in ascribing man to being in bondage to sin. The Law? Yes, it is good, but without Christ, we can do nothing toward obeying it. Jesus tells His disciples that He chose them, not the other way around.
In my book, if it required the death of God to set us free from sin, then we’re a bit beyond merely needing an “enhancement” to our free will. That’s not what Christ’s attoning work was about. “We” and our “wills” were utterly put to death, not enhanced or helped. That was “us” on the cross.
Again, my original question posits the difficulty of the Armenian position of “freedom”. Freedom from what? Are we between God and the devil with just our wills and a bit of Jesus’ encouragement to choose the right way?
Jesus did not die to give me a choice, but to give me life. There’s no stepping down out of heaven and doing what Jesus did if it all just boiled down to man simply making a decision on his own with a little bit of wooing on God’s part thrown in the mix.
I think the Armenian doctrine which you’ve clearly articulated falls short in addressing the seriousness of sin and how it has rendered us absolutely morally incapable of “choosing” to accept Christ. For then, if what you say is in fact the case, I could technically say I’m smarter than an unbeliever for chosing to follow Christ. I could “boast” that “I” had something to do with being saved. That “I” made the wise decision.
But I don’t think salvation is a matter of simply reading Consumer Reports and deciding between A or B options. Salvation belongs to God and it is a gift none of us deserve. Not simply a choice.
I will agree with you though that man is accountable for his actions. Yes. Amen. But when it comes down to it, when God crowned me with salvation, I’m going to take that crown and lay it at His feet. As Augustine wrote, “God rewards His own work.”
God is sovereign and yet man remains responsible. I know this enigma has torn apart the church over the centuries and with all due respect Douglas, I would think we both know the counter and counter-counter arguments and I don’t want to enter into a posting war, if you will! I do like C.S. Lewis, but I don’t agree with his theology in some respects.
And because I don’t know you and want to honor the good-naturedness of this community, I agree not to be a cold,hard Calvinist who derives pleasure from Armenian bashing. Been there, done that to my own shame. Thanks Douglas, again. We shall agree to disagree and focus on what Christ has done for us.
Dan
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Old Hickory,
“Anglican/Arminian”
Other than that, fine job.
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Yes. I love to read but am the worst of spellers when I don’t have it all in front of me. Arminian, Armenian is one of those which I never get it lodged into my brain. You think I would. I have a tough go with anything that has a double letter in it or the “ie” and “ei”. Tis rather embar…you see, embarassing, embarrasing or embarrassing. It’s the last one I believe.
Thanks for the correction. Spelling, or the lack thereof, keeps me humble.
By the way, how does one italicize and put smilies in posts in here? Hadn’t figured that out.
Dan
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This might be a helpful mnemonic:
ArMEnians are from ArMEnia.
And ArMInians are from Hell.
But seriously folks …
And as for italicizing, bolding, etc., …
… see the link “WEBSITE HELP” at the bottom of each and every WMB page … even this one!
(Oh, and welcome aboard!)
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30 Hi there, Dan… I enjoyed your post!
I agree with you on the degree to which we were in bondage to sin after the Fall. But I’m not sure why you believe our “wills” were put to death on the cross. Of course, I adhere to the Christus Victor view of the atonement. The Ransom view of the Early Church. So we may very well part ways right there.
And, when I see Scriptures like Ephesians 4:17-19, where unbelievers are described as having “given themselves over” to sin, I think there’s an implication that free will is in play and that we are personally responsibility for our choices. At the same time, there are plenty of Scriptures that point to God’s helping us make decisions. For me, these varying explanations in Scripture can’t be reconciled without the Arminian explanation.
But maybe our fundamental difference is in our definition of Love. I think God wants to receive genuine love from us. And I don’t know that love can be genuine if the person offering the love is remotely controlled into doing so by the recipient — like a robot.
Another thing that catches my eye in your post is the implication that “choosing” God would lead to boasting among believers that they are smarter or wiser than non-believers. If anything, I think intelligence is more often a barrier to belief — for the blessing of high aptitude often leads to a dangerously high level of pride. So, at least in my case, that wouldn’t be an operating assumption.
Actually, my view is that, when a believer ponders his or her own conversion, the last thing he should attribute that decision to is his own intelligence. I think the nexus of that decision is the realization the he needs help — that his own resources haven’t proven to be enough. The clarity needed to perceive this need is indeed a gift from God. But the decision to act upon this understanding remains our own. But that gets back to my definition of love, of course… : )
Grace and Peace to you, Dan!
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Douglas – I agree with you that loving God first does not diminish the love we have for others. In fact, it seems to me that when we truly love God, He causes us to love others even better & deeper & truer than we did before.
Kind of unrelated but here goes anyway…When we have & express to God our gratitude for His various daily blessings (big & small), that gratitude “doubles back” & enhances the blessing for which we were grateful.
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I’m with you, Karen… I like the way you put that. Thanks!
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Douglas:
You’re a good sport. Thanks for your graciousness. Yes, we do part ways on the Ransom view, simply because I’m a bit put off by the fact that God would resort to “tricking” the devil or use Jesus as some sort of “bait”, which the theory seems to imply. In addition, there seems to be some sort of necessity for God to transact with the devil, as if God “owed” Satan something. Whereas I see in Genesis, God telling the serpent right from the beginning his head will eventually be crushed.No secrets there.
God wasn’t “in debt” to any created being. He had no reason or need to plea bargain for any of us.
I’m a good old fashioned substitutionary attonement believer.God took the penalty of sin upon Himself, willingly, and not out of compulsion. He laid His life down of His own will, not out of a prior necessity of satisfying the demands of the devil.I believe Isaiah 53 fundamentally outlines a fairly concise argument for substitutionary attonement.
But what you say of love is where the Arminian position confuses me most.
For where in Scripture does one see a man or woman “free” from sin after the fall and before salvation? Our very natures love the creature not the Creator. We aren’t free from anything but righteousness when we are in sin.
Where does Scripture attest to our wills being “free”? Again, I still posit the question, from what are our wills “free”? I grant you we can be free from righteousness (in sin) and free from sin’s power (in righteousness) but I find no middle ground of a self-will that is somehow “neutral” and “free”.
What of Romans 7? What is Paul saying then? Doesn’t sound like there is any freedom in his “body of death” save in Christ.
But love. You say we must be free to choose in order for our love to be genuine.
But consider. We loved because He first loved us. He initiated the process, Douglas. Philipians 1:6 He who began a good work in you…God began the work. He chose us and appointed us and called us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, as you know. We were dead in sins and trespasses. Christ made us alive, not we ourselves. Will you suggest the murderous Saul who was later transformed miraculously on the Damascus road became a Christian by choice?
If God didn’t love us first, we’d have no choice, Douglas, save being a slave to sin.
Seems like the cross was a bit over the top if all God needed to do was “woo” our free wills.
We are agreed that we are responsible for our sins. Romans 1 says enough about that, as well as the second part of Psalm 50. Yes.
But again, as Paul says in 1 Cor 13, without love we are nothing. Am I to conclude that the love I have for Jesus was something I chose, that I went from nothing to something by my own decision making process? Considering the fact I hadn’t ever had it previously? It was given to me by God as a gift. The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. God chose us before the foundation of the world to do good works that He prepared for us beforehand that we may walk in them.
Whose to say that God giving us His love so that we may love Him in turn is a robotic process?
Will you suggest that your life is not “authentic” or “genuine” because God gave it to you? Will you go so far as to say everything else God has given you which makes up your person is “robotic” simply because it has first come from His hand?
I wouldn’t. So why stop short at love? He first gave it to us so that we can have something to give back to Him. As Jesus says in John 15 I think it is, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” That sounds “robotic”, but I don’t think you’re ready to suggest that’s what Jesus means, there, are you?
My love for Him is utterly dependent upon His love for me, Douglas. Without Him I’m nothing.
But if you would, help me to understand what you mean by “free” when you speak of a “free” will. Because in my limited understanding, our wills “act” based on a prior inclination toward something.The will is a servant, always acted upon from interior or exterior factors and motivations. So again, from exactly what is our will free? I don’t see there being a middle ground between sin and righteousness regarding our wills. It’s one or the other.
Anyhow, sir. Thank you for your cordiality and candid replies.
Dan
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Hi, again, Dan…!
I’m a bit confused by this question, which you say is the thing that confuses you about Arminian thinking:
For where in Scripture does one see a man or woman “free” from sin after the fall and before salvation?
Because I’m not sure where I’ve indicated that I believe that man was was in any way free from sin after the fall. Nor do I believe man is completely free from sin after Calvery. Not while he walks in the Flesh, anyway. I think it would help me to explain myself better if you could clarify the above.
Also, let me point you to something in response to this:
Yes, we do part ways on the Ransom view, simply because I’m a bit put off by the fact that God would resort to “tricking” the devil or use Jesus as some sort of “bait”, which the theory seems to imply.
For a good explanation of my view of the Fall, please check the section titled, “Sin, Salvation and Incarnation,” at this link (it amounts to three or four brief paragraphs):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
I’m not Eastern Orthodox, but in this instance, I agree with Eastern Orthodox theology. And might I add that this understanding of the Fall, which lays the groundwork for Christus Victor, is a bit “older fashioned” than substitution theory — since it was the prevalent view of the Early Church… : )
The Early Church often receives my sympathies, since I assume they were privy to an oral tradition passed directly from the Apostles and thus from Jesus Himself. Penal substitution, just war, etc., gain popularity later, and thus receive my skepticism. Though I fully understand that sincere Christians can disagree on these things!
And just to be clear, I don’t view God as “in debt” to any created being. Nor do I think He resorted to trickery. I think God chose a plan that would allow for the redeeming of His Creation without His having to throw the entire thing in the trash and start over. Created beings, certainly not the devil, wouldn’t be the objects of trickery. God’s plan simply takes advantage of their ignorance.
For an explanation of why Penal Substitution isn’t consistent with the character of God as revealed in Jesus, I’d like to point you to this essay by Greg Boyd:
http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/jesus/what-do-you-think-of-the-“penal-substitutionary”-view-of-the-atonement/
I apologize for sending you a couple of links, but I think they’ll be helpful to us; mainly because I think you assume some things about my position that I don’t believe. I’m hoping these links will help things without me having to post a book… ha!
Best…!
Douglas
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Also, Dan…
This blog post might interest you, because it shows where aspects of Penal Substitution actually compliment Christus Victor:
http://www.gregboyd.org/uncategorized/a-christus-victor-and-penal-substitution-view-of-the-atonement/
Interesting stuff!!!
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Douglas –
Greetings sir. And thanks for the replies.
My original question to you about the “freedom” bit. You posit “free” will. So in as simple of terms as I can couch this, I’d ask you what part of the will is actually free? And from what is it free? I don’t see any realistic chance of their being any “freedom”, true freedom anyway, save in Christ. It is the center of confusion for me regarding the Arminian position.
Also, Mr. Boyd. Did he not pen the book “God of the Possible”? Correct me if I’m mistaken but I think Mr. Boyd is an advocate of “open theology” or something to that effect, wherein God is seen as changing His mind and doesn’t really know the future to the extent that much depends on the creatures’ actions.
Eek. No thanks. I poked around in that area several years ago as I was doing research on Calvinism and the Reformed tradition. It’s been a while.
But another thing I wanted to see if you’d answer.
We chatted about “love”. You said that if we didn’t have a choice our love to Christ would not be genuine but rather “robotic”.
But let me ask you, would it be the same to say that because God made me and sustains me with every breath and heartbeat I take that I’m not a genuine person? So if I need God to live, I think I’d need God to love as well.
I see nothing wrong with God giving me the love I need to love Him, for He gave me the life I need to live for Him and without Him I can do nothing. This is not robotic coercion as the Arminians suggest, but compassionate provision. I cannot love unless He first loves me. You know your Calvinism, I am sure. Run the TULIP gauntlet. “I” is Irresistable grace, is it not?
And as far as early church history goes, several different trains of theological thought developed early one, one being the penal substitutionary attonement; God sastisfying His own demands. I think this developed further as Western legal canon was being codified in the 12th and 13th centuries if I’m not mistaken.
Anyhow Douglas, thanks much. I will be honest and tell you I’m not fond of Mr. Boyd’s theology. I don’t judge the man, I just think process or open theology falls quite short of a comprehensive theological paradigm.
But if you could better fill me in on what exactly you mean by a “free” will I’d be interested. In your own words, if possible! That and what you think about what I mentioned above about love.
Kudos, my cyber-friend.
Dan
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Hey there, again, Dan!
I have several friends who are extremely wary of Open Theism. Been there… : ) But I would encourage you to check out the links in my previous post, nevertheless. After all, I think it is seldom that any of us agrees 100 percent with any particular pastor, scholar or theologian. I myself love C.S. Lewis, but, for instance, I disagree with him that military service is consistent with God’s teachings under the New Covenant. I think non-violence is at the very core of Jesus’ example on Calvary. So my disagreement with Lewis on that count is a serious one. But that doesn’t get in the way of my enjoyment of many of his other thoughts on Christianity.
In any case, Greg Boyd has several essays posted online that explain his views on Open Theism. Here’s a basic one:
http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-open-theism/response-to-critics/
I think it would be worth your while to see how his arguments, with full Scriptural backing, differ from many common misconceptions about Open Theism and its claims. I think a lot of people who reject Open Theism are actually rejecting silly versions of Open Theism that people like Greg Boyd don’t adhere to.
Most importantly, though, I would challenge you to see if you have answers to his Scriptural objections to Penal Substitution. You’ll grow one direction (or the other) as a result of that exercise… : )
I’d ask you what part of the will is actually free? And from what is it free? I don’t see any realistic chance of their being any “freedom”, true freedom anyway, save in Christ. It is the center of confusion for me regarding the Arminian position.
Simply stated, I think we are created as independent creatures, capable of making our own decisions — even the worst one: choosing to separate from our Creator. If we weren’t independent free agents, then we wouldn’t have been capable of the Fall.
I find Scriptural support for this in Genesis 1:26-27, where we are told that we are made in God’s image — that is, like Him. I believe we are “like” Him in that we can make our own decisions.
Now, it still remains true that God is Love. We can only love, because God gives that part of Himself to us. The underlying truth is that we are independent creatures designed to feed, or “get life,” from God (my C.S. Lewis showing through, don’t you know). However, as evidenced by the Fall, we can choose to attempt to get life elsewhere. We can do so to such a degree that our very existence could be someday extinguished. For a creature to be capable of a choice that would lead to its non-existence is an example of “free will,” to my reckoning.
Here I must apologize, because I’ve got to cut this short and head to the office. I’ll try to return later if I get some down time!
: )
Best to you, Dan!
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Looks like I didn’t close my italics at the end of my previous post. I really only meant to italicize “choose.”
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Hey again, Dan… I’m stealing a minute here at work before I completely dive in… ; )
You wrote:
And as far as early church history goes, several different trains of theological thought developed early one, one being the penal substitutionary attonement; God sastisfying His own demands.
I was just getting a refresher on this at Wikipedia (which, granted, can be wrong — or not completely thorough). And Penal Substitution’s early history is much sketchier than the Ransom theory. You find many church fathers, mirroring New Testament Scripture, in using all manner of terminology — including ransom, substitution and reconciliation. But Penal Substitution is “derived” centuries later.
What’s important to me is that, while Ransom can accommodate aspects of substitution, I don’t think the reverse is true. And once you get to the legalistic substitutionary interpretations of Calvin, I think you must abandon aspects of the New Testament that lean Ransom (and I’m not willing to do that).
One key caveat, though. I’m not a strict Ransom adherent. Like I wrote in earlier posts, it’s more accurate to say I accept Christus Victor. To quote from Wikipedia’s entry on Christus Victor:
[Gustaf] Aulén argues that theologians have misunderstood the view of the early Church Fathers in seeing their view of the Atonement in terms of a Ransom Theory arguing that a proper understanding of their view is not concerned with the payment of ransom to the devil, but with the motif of the liberation of humanity from the bondage of sin, death, and the devil. As the term Christus Victor (Christ the Victor) indicates, the idea of “ransom” should not be seen in terms (as Anselm did) of a business transaction, but more in the terms of a rescue or liberation of humanity from the slavery of sin.
Hence my referral to the Eastern Orthodox Church’s view of ““Sin, Salvation and Incarnation,” at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
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Thanks Douglas!
Hey, I know I don’t know you at all, but I’m finding your exchanges to be refreshingly full of good-sportedness and all of that. This is on a completely different level and I’d appreciate some feedback.
On another thread in here by Andre Seu, where she talkes about being “bonecrushingly lonely” one Sunday, I started sharing my own experiences with depression.
The discussion whittled down to this one particular gal who thought I was “angry”. Now, I know you might have some points of contention with my theological observations contained therein, but if you’d have the time, I wouldn’t mind your opinion as to whether or not my comments reflected any “anger”or what you thought of the exchanges.
It was, by the way, depression which lead me to study Luther’s life and that’s pretty much how I got into Reformed theology. Take a peak if you’ve got the time. I harbor no grudges toward the woman, but in blog lingo, whenever someone’s bolding and ALL CAPSing you frequently, it tends to get a bit irksome. We were just not understanding each other, bottom line.
Oh, and by the way, would you think it reasonable to conclude that after 40 days in the wilderness without food, that Jesus might’ve been “fatigued”? I got taken to task for suggesting He was fatigued. What do you think? No, Scripture only says He was “hungry”. Can we infer He was tired or fatigued, too?
But back to our business. I look at it this way with the word “Ransom”. We were ransomed by God for God from sin. I have no problem with using that term in that way. But I also believe that Jesus was “bruised” for our transgressions and by His “stripes” we are healed.
He was hung between two ordinary criminals as a criminal Himself. He was put to death by the Roman authorities in the way they put many criminals to death.
I grant you Calvin was a lawyer and I know that it probably had much to do with his penal theology. But Douglas, we did, all of us, in the final analysis, break the “Law.”
I’m not a stickler for specifics in this case. I’d agree with your sentiment that it is perhaps wise to consider the early church fathers’ views on the matter, but in the end, we have Scripture as our final authority, and I think you can make a case for a “ransom” the way I mentioned it or for Calvin’s system.
And simply because there are a few distinct views of Jesus’ death as it pertains to us, I think both would have some merit of course.
Your response to “freedom”. Interesting word, “independent”. I thought we were to be “dependent” on Christ. So we get back to the nature of my original question.
From what are we “independent”? This, to me, suggests some sort of third way, or half-way position between sin and righteousness – a neutral, free and independent individual mulling over the options with a power to choose not of God or of the devil but of his own accord. But I still am not sure I’m following you on this. I apologize.
I’ll take a look at the last link you posted.
Thanks again Doug. Hope your day was productive.
Dan
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Douglas:
Just read some of Mr. Boyd’s article you posted for me.
Right off the bat, I must say that he cites mostly Old Testament passages to support his views of Scripture. That, to me, is something to consider.
I’ll have to read more in detail later. But for now, I just wanted to mention I noticed that.
Dan
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OLDHICKORY68 (44): The discussion whittled down to this one particular gal who thought I was “angry”. … I wouldn’t mind your opinion as to whether or not my comments reflected any “anger”or what you thought of the exchanges.
Frank: If I may?
Dan, I’d been following several threads on which you’ve posted over the last … what, week or two? You come across as an extremely gracious — to a fault! (If grace could ever be considered a fault!) I look forward to reading more from you in the weeks and months ahead.
But as far as TOPG (this one particular gal) goes, I hadn’t read that thread, so I just went there and read your exchange w/her.
And, umm … well, let’s just say that that is her (TOPG’s) “way,” shall we? I’ve gotten more lumps on my forehead than I care to count from banging my head against that particular brick wall!
When she’s gotten irritated with me in the past, I would have granted that it could very well have been because I might have been less than gracious in the exchange. But when I read her replies to you re. your depression, and arguing whether or not it was legitimate to surmise that Jesus was “fatigued” when tempted in the wilderness, in contrast to your extremely kind and gracious manner … I have to wonder just how culpable I’ve actually been in many of our past exchanges!
To put it another way, reading your exchange with TOPG, it certainly does seem like she’s often spoiling for a rhetorical scrap from which she can come away vindicated (if only in her own mind).
I’ll be looking for your posts, and hoping to glean lessons on how to deal more graciously with my fellow WMG posters — most especially those of the household of faith (including TOPG).
Blessings …
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… all of which is to say: No, I saw no indication of “anger” on your part.
(But alot of what might be construed as “anger,” or at least stridence, on the part of TOPG — what with her penchant for the use of ALL CAPS and bold!)
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BTW Dan,
Did you check out the link re. how to bold and ital? (”Website Help,” below.)
Enjoy in moderation, of course!
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Frank:
Thanks.
I learned my lumps in a Richard Dawkins web blog. I got pounded, but I enjoyed being gracious to folks. Praise God. He’s tempering me. I aksed for patience a long time ago, and Lo!
But thank you for your graciousness and kind words. I went to bed praying for Victoria and told Jesus I could’ve been hasty in my conclusions. Sure.
Underneath my cyber demeanor, their lurks the flesh of a man who likes to be right all the time too!
Your a gem Frank. I envy the cooler temps in Spokane. Nothing like Texas heat to temper the soul.
Have a great day.
Dan
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Dan/OH: Frank is right, you were more than gracious on the thread regarding depression. (Offered by one with a few head knots herself!) And your thoughtful comments on that topic were enlightening and much appreciated by many of us.
And I have to say that I’ve also thoroughly enjoyed ‘lurking’ and reading the back-and-forth between you and Douglas on this thread this week, what a breath of fresh air to see this very important doctrinal topic discussed with such depth, understanding, kindness and gentleness between brothers who may disagree but never lose sight of the love we are to have for one another — because we are His.
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Hi there again, Dan…! I’m liking our conversation as well… in fact, I’ve been bragging to friends on your behalf! You’ve been an absolute pleasure to chat with!
In the interest of full disclosure: I should confess that, like you, I’ve made it a goal to stay gentle with my brothers and sisters on Christian message boards! I’ve certainly been guilty of some snide and angry comments in the past during these sorts of conversations. And I’ve always felt awful about it immediately afterwards. It’s not just an awful feeling, I believe the Spirit convicts me — and not in any ambiguous way.
I think you can make a case for a “ransom” the way I mentioned it or for Calvin’s system.
Yes… the bottom line is that both explanations seem extremely reasonable to their adherents. So what are you going to do? heh-heh.
Can we infer He was tired or fatigued, too?
I don’t think it can be ruled out. And if we assume that Jesus was fatigued, it just speaks all the more forcefully to the nourishment the Spirit offers us — when we give ourselves entirely over to it, as Jesus was doing. Even when the flesh is in a starving, fatigued and otherwise physically dilapidated condition, the Spirit is sufficient.
Your response to “freedom”. Interesting word, “independent”. I thought we were to be “dependent” on Christ. So we get back to the nature of my original question.
I have two key influences on this topic. Before I ever became a Christian, I had a roommate who was an Orthodox Jew — even to the extent that he didn’t use electricity on Saturdays. His view of Torah Law was that its purpose was to give humanity a glimpse of its own blue print — its make-up. Through the Law, God was telling us how the human “machine” works best. We can choose live life without following the Law, but, inevitably, any path apart from the Law will result in us having created problems for ourselves. However, if we follow the Law, and thus stay within the parameters of our blue print (or operating instructions, if you will); then we will limit our problems in life.
That’s my first influence. And it really resonated with me.
Later I became a Christian and, when reading Mere Christianity, I was struck by C.S. Lewis’ contention that we are beings created to feed on God’s love. That is, if we were machines, then our fuel would be God’s love.
To the degree that we choose to get our fuel away from God, we’ll create problems for ourselves. To the extent that we open ourselves to God’s Spirit, we’ll create fewer problems for ourselves.
I immediately saw how “following Torah Law” and “getting Life from God” are fundamentally connected. The first explains how to DO the other.
So, like you, Dan, I believe we are dependent on Christ. But I also believe it takes an act of free will to choose to “feed” on God’s love.
Then you throw in the complication of the Fall, which damaged our ability to make that choice.
And then there’s one more caveat, which you touched on here:
But Douglas, we did, all of us, in the final analysis, break the “Law.”
Since I adhere to the explanation of the Fall found under the sub-heading “Sin, Salvation and Incarnation,” at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church
… I don’t view the Fall as a breaking of the Law. The Fall was a choice to break our spiritual tether to God — that tether was the “fuel line” through which we “fed” from God’s spirit.
The Law was given to humanity after the Fall; and, as it turns out, it’s main purpose wasn’t, as my Jewish friend explained, to give us operating instructions. No, it’s chief purpose was to show us, without any shadow of a doubt, that we cannot connect to God without that original pre-Fall spiritual tether having been healed or reestablished.
And that’s one of the key consequences of Calvary. Through the gift of the Spirit, our spiritual tether to God has been reestablished. HOWEVER… we remain in the Flesh; that is, our bodies are Fallen vessels. And our minds remain tainted with innumerable Fallen (i.e. Worldly) misconceptions. We “improve” or “grow” as Christians to the extent that we make a conscience effort to get Life through our spiritual tether rather than from the World.
And that’s how I see us as being dependent on Christ, while at the same time, we must choose to accept that we are dependent on Him. And that choice is an exercising of our Free Will.
You know, I should point you to something else that influences my opinion on this topic. On YouTube, I’ve posted a couple of excerpts from a Greg Boyd sermon that offers an explanation of how Jesus’ teachings help us stay open to the Spirit. The first excerpt is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9TytMyGpuU
And the second is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM8bbwKughc
When you connect all three of the dots above, I’m not saying you’ll switch to my way of thinking, but hopefully you’ll see why I believe what I believe… : )
Now… off to work… I’ll make a point to check that other message thread for alleged “anger”!
Grace & Peace!
Douglas
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And here we have a new angle – an area for gossip, innocent questions? – no surprises here as to those who participate – predictable.
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Hi Dan,
I thought that I would jump into this conversation as I feel fairly strongly about the open view and know it fairly well, so maybe I can shed some light on the subject.
“Also, Mr. Boyd. Did he not pen the book “God of the Possible”? Correct me if I’m mistaken but I think Mr. Boyd is an advocate of “open theology” or something to that effect, wherein God is seen as changing His mind and doesn’t really know the future to the extent that much depends on the creatures’ actions.
Eek. No thanks. I poked around in that area several years ago as I was doing research on Calvinism and the Reformed tradition. It’s been a while. “
It is not that God does not “know” the some of the actions of a free will agent as if they were there to know but that he is incapable. But that the decisions are not actually there to know in the first place. I would define God’s omniscience as knowing all truths as true and all falsehoods as false. So if I am presented with a choice between A and B, God does not know that what I am going to choose because there is not a truth value attached to that choice yet. So God is not lacking any knowledge in that situation. There is much more that can be said, but I will start with this and see if you would like to continue.
“I see nothing wrong with God giving me the love I need to love Him, for He gave me the life I need to live for Him and without Him I can do nothing. This is not robotic coercion as the Arminians suggest, but compassionate provision. I cannot love unless He first loves me. You know your Calvinism, I am sure. Run the TULIP gauntlet. “I” is Irresistable grace, is it not?”
Why then would you believe that an all loving God would not give everyone that same love that he gave you? And if God is capable of giving you this love (even in your fallen state) is he not just as capable of giving it to everyone else? If so, and the grace that he gives you is irresistible, then why is it that everyone is not a christian?
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Ephraim:
Thanks for joining in. Your last paragraph. You have come to the edge of what man cannot answer, I don’t think. Indeed, why does God save some and not others?
I do not know myself. Why does God save any of us? I think this is where the “fear and trembling” ought to begin.
I do not know why God does not give that love to everyone. My Dad died an unbeliever, tragically.
I do think, though, that God does know what I’ll choose. For as Ephesians says, He chose me before the foundation of the world. And Psalm 139 says that God fashioned my days beforehand before there were any of them.
We enter into a realm that, believe it or not, Calvin didn’t go, even though people have accused him of doing so. We just don’t know God’s knowledge beyond what Scripture reveals. There are paradoxes and enigmas. Jesus says as much in John 3 about the Holy Spirit.
So I stand at the same precipe you do, my cyber compatriot in the faith. I cannot, in good faith, answer the questions you posit in your last paragraph. If we were arm wrestling, you’d win!
Thanks for jumpin’ in. No worries. Good stuff.
Victoria:
Hello! I have nothing to hide. My reasons for posting in here what I did was to get multiple opinions of others about my dialogue with you. I was holding myself accountable. I’m again, sorry you see this as an offense or as “gossip”. Perhaps I’ve overstepped my bounds once more as I see you’re upset by what I’ve done to some degree.
My sincerest apologies once more. I’m not trying to be contentious, hateful, argumentative or arrogant, eventhough I know I can be. Everything I wrote to Doug I would have said to you. And I know the nature of these blogs. Everyone and anyone may read them. I figured you probably would. You knew I was put off by your ALL CAPS and bolding and I apologized to you for misunderstanding your use of them.
I’ve asked for your forgiveness in causing any offenses. I wanted others to tell me what they thought about how I was coming across and about our discussion related to Jesus’ temptation. I admitted to you multiple times where I was coming from. You’ll note my question to Doug about fatigue. I realize that I could very well be wrong for making the inference.
Victoria, I hope I have demonstrated my willingness to admit wrong, apologize, repent and ask forgiveness for offending you in any way. No amount of blogging is worth having someone have a low opinion of other brothers or sisters in Christ. I mean that.
If you feel that strongly about my postings, please report me to the moderator and I will take my lumps for gossipping, being “angry” and the likes. As far as we go, again, I apologize and ask your forgiveness. I’m not hiding a thing from you.
Douglas:
Evening, my new chum. I am DJing a wedding tomorrow and I had the rehearsal tonight. I’ll be out of the loop till Sunday night. Thanks for the info.
You come close to what they call the “here and now” and the “not yet”. It is the deposit of the Spirit as Ephesians mentions, and the “groaning” of our incomplete natures as Romans says. I love what Romans 8 says (I think it’s 8), where it says something like we’ve been subject to “vanity” as one of my translations puts it, so that we may not put our ultimate hope in our selves or this world.
And I think that’s another reason I embrace the reformed course. The depression with which I struggle at times has forced me to hope in something beyond myself. As a new believer I was a zealot! But God has tempered me severely. I can say with Paul that I know in my flesh dweleth no good thing. Romans 7, I believe.
Or elsewhere in one of the Corinthian epistles, Paul speaks about why we have this “treasure” of God’s love within “clay vessels”. It is so we know it all comes from Him.
Someone once quipped to me about Arminian/open theology (and I mean to offend in the most loving of ways, here!) that saying we can “make a choice” toward righteousness would be akin to the stone waterpots at the Cana wedding taking credit for selecting the vintage contained within themselves.
I like that. It goes along with Lamentations 5:21 I think it is, where the people petition the LORD, “Turn us, and we shall be turned.”As with the waterpots, “Fill us, and we shall be filled.”
To look at myself as an empty vessel really puts me in a state of dependency on Christ that I would never have chosen for myself. I must admit that my “experience” as a new believer quickly turned to frustration within a year or two. It wasn’t until I’d read Luther’s “Bondage of the Will” that I’d finally discovered some theology which spoke directly to what I’d experienced but couldn’t articulate theologically.
The reformed tradition seemed to reach forward from the past and lay hold of me. I can certainly say it wasn’t a decision to accept it so much as it was the truth of my own struggle.
I think Arminian/open theology suits folks well for whom God has given perhaps a measure of delight in doing His will so that the choices, if you will, come more fluidly, more easily, perhaps. Jesus does say His yoke is easy and His burden light.Those are your gifts.
What I also find intriguing is that the list of melancholy believers who’ve embraced the reformed tradition is impressive. There may be a personality trait at the heart of the different theological systems. At least that’s what I’ve come to accept. You Arminians are often warm, charismatic, personable, loving folks. Easy-going maybe.
Us reformed folks are introspective, opinionated, rigid, sometimes cold, worriers, brooding, intense and perfectionists. God has used many a saint of differing theological stripe to soften my edges.
I know these are generalizations, but I’ve seen it enough times to have at least a thesis statement about it.
Anyhow, Doug. You made me laugh. Bragging on a Calvinist! Better be careful about that! Thanks though. It made my evening. You are too kind.
Y’all have a great weekend. I’ll poke back around Sunday or thereabouts.
Dan
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Donna:
Didn’t mean to leave out responding to you.
Thanks for your comments. I was surprise, really to find such an interest in what I was writing.
But it gave me a momentary lift. I saw a little light in the darkness, perhaps something indicative of what I’ve been praying will come to pass.
Namely that God will use what I’ve been through to lovingly encourage others who pass through the dark night of the soul.
By the way, I’ve never asked and we’ve chatted enough so I ought to. What is it you do? In what state do you live? If I haven’t mentioned it already, I live in Texas and teach history, math and English (whatever is needed, basically) and do construction and painting in the summers.
Thanks again Donna. I really do appreciate your kind words.
Dan
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Doug:
About the “Law” comment. We’re brothers in agreement on the specific intent of the Law – namely to reveal sin.
What I meant was that in Adam, as the early primer says, “we all fell” or “we all fall.” Something like that. The law brings it home. No. I’m up with you there.
And I bring this up because its the crux of the Arminian enigma for me. You’ll admit the Law reveals sin and that its not a “to-do list”. It is in fact a “cannot-do-and-have-not-done” list. So why does the good Arminian insist on a “free will” given what you admit know of the Law? I like what how you word it. The fall “complicated” our choice making!
You prove yourself adept at political rhetoric! Admit sin’s influence, but somehow retain some sort of tiny archepelago of human will in the vast ocean of our moral inability.
Doug, it is all in good taste and humor. You know I mean no ill. I do love it when we get down to the law with your folk on this. It posits a quandry. Yes. How do we choose when the law says we can’t obey? Can’t I choose to honor my mother and father and not lie, lust, steal or covet?
Apparently not.
Anyhow, I’m off to bed. Have a wonderful weekend.
Dan
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Old Hickory: I do hope you stick around, your voice has been a good addition to many of these discussions. Douglas & Ephraim, ditto. Always fun to see some new perspectives from new people. Grace & peace to you. Sometimes these discussions can get contentious, so it’s wonderful to be reminded how we can lower our tone, put on humility and (thereby) make our points effectively.
I’m in Southern California, am a newspaper reporter (which pretty much means I’ll be extinct & unemployed probably sooner rather than later!). Sigh. I’ve only been to Texas once, and briefly at that, for a Ligonier Conference back in the early 1990s in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, then flew out just 2 days later for a long-overdue visit with my Quaker friends who live on a farm in upstate NY.
So I didn’t really see much of Texas, but there sure were plenty of very tall buildings. Love those conferences, you meet so many people from all over the country.
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Thanks for joining in. Your last paragraph. You have come to the edge of what man cannot answer, I don’t think. Indeed, why does God save some and not others?
I do not know myself. Why does God save any of us? I think this is where the “fear and trembling” ought to begin.
I do not know why God does not give that love to everyone. My Dad died an unbeliever, tragically.
Hi Dan,
I would say that the bible is pretty clear that God wishes no man should parish but all should have eternal life. This contradicts the idea that God chooses some and not others. If it is a matter of God not being able to choose some, then you would have to ask yourself what “force” is over powering God in that he wants to choose all but is not able to?
I do think, though, that God does know what I’ll choose. For as Ephesians says, He chose me before the foundation of the world. And Psalm 139 says that God fashioned my days beforehand before there were any of them.
If this is true, and God knowing that you will choose God and then subsequently he chose you, are end up exactly where you were trying to avoid being. You are now in a position where it is “us” and not God that is making the choice. You also fall into a contradiction. If one cannot choose God with God first choose that person, then how could God know that you would choose him? It would be impossible to say that God could know someone would choose him on their own, if the only way one could choose God is if God chooses him first. Now you are right back to God arbitrarily choosing one over another, which is of course no very loving.
Thanks for joining in. Your last paragraph. You have come to the edge of what man cannot answer, I don’t think. Indeed, why does God save some and not others?
I feel these questions can most certainly be answered. I think that as a good follower of Christ we should examine everyone of our beliefs and when we get to a point that there does not seem to be answer ask ourselves, “is this because there is no answer, or because my theology is faulty?” I feel that it is an inevitable conclusion with Calvinism that either we hit a contradiction or we are left with a God that is not all loving.
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Hello Ephraim:
You have some good thoughts.
But as I mentioned with the good Mr. Douglas, the Arminian camp dictates that it is “unloving” and “robotic” for God to be preselecting people’s eternal fate.
I, along with Calvin, do not and cannot traverse the barrier of “how” God sorts people, if you will.
But He does. For such a time as this. For reasons beyond our limited comprehension.
You posit God as “stuck” between “having” to choose, like you or I would be in cosidering whether to invite Jim or Sue to a party. Ariminian theology creates a false necessity of God “having” to make choices. God is not obligated out of necessity to anyone to save them, but He does. So your picture of God in defense of your position is a false premise, at least one that cannot, in my estimation, be adequately portrayed. There is nothing arbitrary about God’s acions and I believe Scripture is abundantly clear on God selecting some but not others.
I do not, however, and cannot, speculate on the mechanics or decision making behind God’s acts. I will admit my own limitation here. I don’t know “how” or “why” for example that God “chose” me but did not “choose” my father.
You may sing all you wish about whatever “choices” I had in the matter, but I can tell you experentially, my conversion was not “my” decision.
And the bottom line for me is this, Ephraim. While I fully comprehend the Arminian position on “free will” I would say nevertheless that it’s not ultimately what the Christian life is about. It is merely a “means” not an end. But in Arminian camps, “free will” receives almost as much attention and praise as God does. The “will” is not the primary issue. The glory of God is. And while I’m not at all suggesting your or Douglas have a low view of God (heaven knows I do too often), but to me, when it comes down to it, “free will” I believe takes away from God’s glory in giving salvation to whomever He wishes.
The offer of mercy is free to those whom God has chosen. How and why He chooses are beyond my realm of understanding, Ephraim. If you wish to posit that my theology is at fault because I cannot answer the how and why, that is for you to decide. I’m ok with being considered “lacking” in some areas. Reminds me I’m human (so does golf).
Scripture, as I mentioned to Douglas, demonstrates that we are responsible moral agents. It says we cannot live up to the standards of the law and are thus going to be judged accordingly.
But on the other hand, eternal life and the continuing process of sanctification do not depend upon our limited, dare I say, depraved moral sense, but wholly upon the grace and mercy of the Lord Jesus.
Scripture makes me lean upon Christ and His finished work, not me or the choices I make.
And as I mentioned to Doug, do you think Ephraim, because God gave you what you needed in order to live, because He created you and gave you life and not another (by life I simply mean your physical life) that God is “arbitrary”?
God is arbitrary in selecting some to be saved, but He’s not arbitrary in creating some but not others.
My mom, for instance, had a miscarriage before I was born. It would’ve been an older brother, I think. She didn’t tell me this until I was much older.
Why did I come into the world and not him?
I don’t know. It scares me sometimes. Was God being “arbitrary”?
Simply because I believe God chose me and gave me the love I needed to love Him and others doesn’t mean I’m a robot. It means I’m loved. Does an infant acquire things on his own or is he given what he needs to live?
If Christianity begins a “new birth” I think one ought to ponder the nature of physical birth and our relative helpless condition in which man finds himself and translate that to our “new birth”. The parallels are, I believe, informative.
Anyhow Ephraim, as I told Doug, I’m on the up and up with avoiding ad homs and ridicule and the likes as well as “arguing”. I know you’re not doing any of those. But I am committed to recognizing when we’ll have to sort of just lay it down and avoid going back and forth and agree to disagree before we begin to lose sight of our good-naturedness.
Like Doug, I know I’m beyond being able to convince you of my positions. I will continue to discuss of course, by all means, but it is obvious you both are well-oiled for defending your positions and I know in my own stubborn pride, I’d tire myself out with attempts to prove I’m “right” which would never be productive.
Thanks for jumping in again.
Dan
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OLDHICKORY68 (60): If Christianity begins a “new birth” I think one ought to ponder the nature of physical birth and our relative helpless condition in which man finds himself and translate that to our “new birth”. The parallels are, I believe, informative.
Frank: Thanks for bringing that up. The Scriptures make several comparisons between our physical and our spiritual birth, and I wonder why it is our arminian/baptistic brothers don’t seem to stop to consider them.
E.g., when relating my conversion experience, I used to say, “I was born again in a Baptist church Germany in February 1981.”
But since “going Reformed” about ten years ago, I’ve realized that I was probably not relating when I was born again, but rather, when I became aware that I had already been born again.
Likewise, when we discuss our earliest memories, we don’t follow by saying, ” … and that’s when I was born.” I tend to think that, just as we become self-aware — aware that we are living beings — some time after we’ve been born, we may also very well become spiritually self-aware — i.e., aware that we believe the Gospel, and love and want to give our lives to the One who gave Himself for us — sometime after the Holy Spirit has caused us to be born again.
We don’t beget ourselves, we are begotten of God.
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Frank: “I’ve realized that I was probably not relating when I was born again, but rather, when I became aware that I had already been born again.”
Excellent point — I remember some 15-20 years ago I’d volunteered to be a “counselor” at one of the big stadium revivals in our area. Looking back, this may have been presumptuous of me to say at the time, but I told the one gal I’d been paired up with that God had already chosen her in eternity, but on this night she was “let in” on that information.
She was so excited & I pray that her faith was genuine, those events were always so chaotic and (in my opinion now) relied heavily on emotionalism and peer pressure.
Thank you for bringing up how often the Bible does compare our physical birth to our spiritual birth. Neither of which, in my understanding, we had anything to do with!
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I still remember when my journey began how strange I felt perusing the shelves of Bibles in the secular bookstore at the local mall. What if someone I know sees me? Or, What if some “Christian” starts trying to talk to me??
From there, I began reading through the New Testament for the first time as an adult — not quickly, perhaps taking only a chapter or two or three a week.
It wasn’t until a year or two later that I actually realized (and could openly say) that I was a “born-again” Christian. But in reality, God had already regenerated me, moving me to go to that bookstore and buy a Bible, something that was really quite unthinkable to me at that time in my life.
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Hello Douglas, Ephraim, Frank and Donna:
Happy Sunday!
Pastor today preached on 1 Corinthians 2 and true Christian wisdom. He focused on the revelatory emphasis on wisdom, how it is truly a gift.
I thought of our exchanges in here and to me, despite our different perspectives on the matter, the fact that we can all agree on the “foolishness” of the cross, of what it meant for us and how it applies to all aspects of our lives, is demonstrative I think that we’ve all been recipients of that gift.
Another encouraging thing about Christian wisdom is the willingness to “love” even when you might think you have all the “facts” in your corner.
I think we’ve all, however abstractly within this forum, realized that we share enough of a bond of Christian unity that reflects true Christian wisdom. There are Christian essentials, enough to unify us. The “test” is in loving, which is knowledge rightly lived. I think we’ve all done that in here and are continuing to strive toward that end if what we say here is any indication of how each of us lives.
Jesus says we will be known primarily by the love for which we have for one another. I think we’ve perhaps unconsciously absorbed much of the modern paradigm which tends to sort, classify and separate every aspect of our lives to such an extent that we divide ourselves from ourselves and others.
Think of medicine. On TV you can note that there is a drug for just about everything, but that if one was on a variety of different medications for individual symptoms and maladies that it is often the case they don’t interact very well. It’s my guess that it’s because modern medicine doesn’t have “whole-istic” view of man, but a compartmentalized one. We sneeze, burp, pass gas, have heartburn, allergies, sexual dysfunctions, sadness, joint pain, headaches, etc. and there’s a pill for every one of them! But this a very narrow view of our humanity which fails to address all of who we are as created in the image of God.
But I would say this is also how we view culture. We have our institutions, church, theology, science, economics, politics, entertainment, law, government, education, nationalism, philosophy, industry, etc. and we somehow think they’re all separate and distinct each with their own internal mechanisms that don’t interact with other aspects of culture.
Wisdom I believe recognizes that culture is simply a reflection of how we view ourselves. If the self is cut off and compartmentalized, so shall that self’s culture. How we attempt to alleviate sneezing and allergies is how we’ll address our political and social problems.
That’s why a “stimulus” will never “fix” anything. It’s like a massive allergy pill, narrowly focusing on one aspect of our dilemma while ignoring all the other complexities of human nature and exposure to sin and the elements which have yielded our collective sneezing fits.
I’m not saying we abandon the pursuit of right doctrine or that truth is unimportant. There are essentials to the Christian faith that cannot be subjective. But such a pursuit of the truth must incorporate a love for one another and have a much broader view that simply tightly nuanced theological argumentation. So even though I believe the Reformed tradition reflects the truth of Scripture much better than an Arminian position, I can, by God’s grace, still embrace an Arminian and truly love the person as Christ has loved me. It also provides for a much richer and far more interesting interaction with our surrounding culture and its institutions.
I think love, the Christian sort, enables brothers and sisters in Christ to live more comfortably with paradox and enigma. Because we see in Christ’s love for us just how much of a contradiction in terms we are to ourselves! And through such revelatory love and knowledge, we can also the paradoxes and enigmas of our fellow man and his institutions in which he labors.
Anyhow. Thanks so much for all the encouraging posts so far. It’s been great.
Dan Ray
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So refreshing to see the polite & respectful tone of the dialogue on this thread. Thanks.
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Karen, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Hey there, Dan… : ) (I took the weekend off… heh-heh).
You know I mean no ill. I do love it when we get down to the law with your folk on this. It posits a quandry. Yes. How do we choose when the law says we can’t obey? Can’t I choose to honor my mother and father and not lie, lust, steal or covet??
I think we can choose to try to honor our mothers and fathers — and try to never lie, lust, steal and covet. And our decision to make those attempts is indeed an exercise in free will.
At the same time, our inability to successfully follow through on those decisions is due to our fallen nature.
Now… why do some people not even care to make an attempt at never lusting or coveting? That’s where I’m pretty sure we both have different explanations.
I would say that this is due to the fact that God gifted us all with the freedom to reject Him.
I cannot bring myself to believe that God made the decision for those people — by withholding sufficient love from them. This belief is inconsistent with Scripture, I think. For Scripture is clear that, at Calvary, God gave His life for everyone (”for He so loved the [entire] World”). This truth is driven home when Jesus asks forgiveness for the very people who had unjustly convicted Him**, then tortured Him, and finally hung Him on the cross.
His is a limitless love; and it is extended to everyone.
You know, I think I could believe in Universal Salvation (that God’s love is ultimately irresistible, and that not one of us can refuse it for all of eternity), before I could believe the God described in Scripture would arbitrarily choose to put creatures He says He loves through lives of suffering, pain, disease and death. And then hold them in existence so that they might endure an afterlife of punishment….before finally extinguishing them altogether.
I don’t think that’s consistent with God’s character as revealed in Christ.
**And the unjust conviction, of course, is a broader commentary on the Law itself. A combination of Torah Law and man-invented laws sent a completely innocent man to His death. And thus sin was defeated and the Law shown to be insufficient — a stop-gap teaching tool for a fallen world. Hence the term “Christus Victor.”
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Douglas:
Greetings, sir.
I should probably take some time away from this myself.
Anyhow. Hope you had a good restful weekend. I golfed, DJ’d a wedding and swam 1600 meters. Then blogged some with Arcadia. I enjoy talking to her. At least I think she’s a her.
But to your thoughts here.
“Arbitrary” seems to be a common understanding in the Arminian camp as to how God would “decide” or “choose” to save some and not everyone.
First, I do not believe God is ever arbitrary in what He does. As I mentioned to Ephraim, suggesting God arbitrarily “chooses” between say Jim or Sue is a false conception. It’s too human. Makes God seem like He is strapped by a necessity, like we are, that he must decide as a man does. While I ‘m not saying God doesn’t act or “decide” things. I’m simply suggesting the difference between our limited, fallen nature and our understanding and familiarity with our own decision making process which is tainted by sin and God’s perfect will.God can decide things in ways we haven’t and cannot presently exhaustively comprehend because of our finite natures. Your position suggests also that God isn’t sure. The very notion of God making a “decision” (as we make decisions) between who’ll be saved and who won’t suggests salvation to be an up-in-the-air-wait-and-see sort of deal rather than established before the foundation of the world, as Ephesians says.
Second, I don’t believe that the Reformed position posits that we can know who God’s “elect” are. So there’s a veil. God does love the world and has the perogative to do whatever He so determines to do and that salvation is available to all, but as Jesus said, the road is narrow and there are few who find it.So we cannot tell who will be saved. From our vantage point on the earth (Ecc. 5:2) the offer is open to everyone and we are to go to “everyone” and extend the invitation. We simply do not know who is and who isn’t going to be saved. Calvin is misunderstood I think when people argue against his concept of an elect, which is found in Scripture very plainly.See Romans 8:28-30. And backward looking through history we do see not everyone does accept the Christian faith.
As I posted to Ephraim, we must accept a paradox here. For we can go no further. We are responsible moral agents who will be held accountable for our actions and for whether we accept or reject God’s offer of salvation. But on the other hand it is plain as well in Scripture that God is the only one with sufficient means of enacting salvation within a soul. He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. As Jesus says to His disciples “You did not choose Me, but I chose you…”
That’s as far as I can go with it.
The struggle I have in embracing your postion is that history itself testifies to countless numbers of folks who were not Christians. Yes, they rejected God on their own volition, but I also believe God hardened their hearts and prepared them for destruction. The entire chapter of Romans 9 is instructive here. In verse 22, we read that there are “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and in verse 11 we read of Esau and Jacob and how before they were born, God had already determined which of the two would be the recipient of His grace and blessings. And in verse 15 (the ALL CAPS here is not my emphasis, but it’s what’s in my Bible. I’m not yelling at you, Doug!) “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY…” The next verse says this, “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
And in verse 18, it says, “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”
So there’s that. But again, I agree with you that we are also responsible for consciously making the “choice” to accept or reject God and His Word, His offer of salvation. So again, the paradox. We are responsible, but we can only be saved and sanctified by something beyond our own human volition.
As Paul asks rhetorically in Romans 9,(and I paraphrase here) does the potter have the right to do what he wishes with his clay? Doesn’t he make tea cups and chamber pots? One for honorable things, one for dishonrable things?
I’ve not the mind of God on His selection process Douglas. I admit it and stop short at the enigmatic paradox of it all. The bottom line for me is to refrain from speculation, which is tough because I’m curious, and to wholly lean on Jesus, not my “free will” which I think perished in Eden behind some fig leaves.
We have this sentence of death in ourselves so that we may not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead. 2 Corinthians 1:9
And by the way, “freedom to reject” God. Is that “freedom” “free” from sin? Is that freedom “free” from God’s influence in “drawing all men” to Himself via the cross? Again, Doug, whenever you bring this up, it appears to me to posit some sort of middle ground between sin and the Spirit, both sort of competing with each other for our allegiance.
Here’s another rub. If we have free wills as you say, if our wills are truly free,then why the need of Christ to save us?
Anyhow, my good man. That’s what I’ve got this evening. Good to hear from you once more.
Dan
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Woah. Forgot to take the italics off. Sorry brother. I was not italicizing you with attitude or anything.
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Folks:
Rough night for me. I covet your prayers. Nothing “happened” its just that I’ve been plagued with intense thoughts of my own mortality and feeling “trapped”, not sensing I can do much of anything to improve. It’s weird, the older I get, the more I can recognize when I’m depressed but still have relatively no control over how or when it manifests.
I know its a sin to worry, but I’m consumed with it. A comment in another post about something I said hasn’t helped matters. I think maybe I’ve given this blog way too much of my energy and time. That may be part of this. I’m drained mentally and that’s usually an indicator.
You all have been so kind and gracious.Thanks.
Dan
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Praying for you.
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Hey there, Dan… I, too, have a huge propensity to worry.
And, with that in mind, I keep several sermons on my iPod which speak about our worrying. I’ve posted an excerpt from one of them on YouTube. So don’t “worry” about his Open Theism while on this topic, and see if this offering from Greg Boyd is helpful… : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUmuMcMCVc
I’ve got a couple of other “worry” sermons from other pastors that I’d love to get to you. They are mp3’s, and I’d have to put them on my Web space so that you could download them. Please e-mail me at deepcoffee@yahoo.com, and we can arrange that.
Blessings to you!
Douglas
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On our other topic, Dan…
The struggle I have in embracing your postion is that history itself testifies to countless numbers of folks who were not Christians. Yes, they rejected God on their own volition, but I also believe God hardened their hearts and prepared them for destruction.
I’d just say that my belief is that, when Scripture indicates that God hardened someone’s heart, it is not to be taken as His universal practice. It is done to prepare and carry out specific plans. Judas Iscariot comes to mind. But is it safe for us to assume that even Judas didn’t come back around and repent? If he did, we would not necessarily know it. But, based on Jesus’ offering of forgiveness to his enemies while on the cross, I think the door was open for Judas to repent. Pure speculation, I know. But you see my point…? I think there is the possibility that God hardens hearts temporarily to achieve His purposes.
Again, Doug, whenever you bring this up, it appears to me to posit some sort of middle ground between sin and the Spirit, both sort of competing with each other for our allegiance.
That’s exactly how I see it. We are in the middle of a spiritual war. With everything hanging on who we choose to obey. Take Romans 6:16, for instance (The New Living Translation):
Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
I have a bit more on this… but it’ll have to wait, cuz I’ve got to hit the road for work!
Again, blessings to you!
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Doug, thanks. I’ve got to boogie too, I do have some thoughts for later.
Dan
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Spurgeon.
(For incredible sermons)
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Douglas:
Greetings. Hope work was productive and all of that.
Scripture.
You mention Romans 6:16 but do not mention Romans 6:17, which says “But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which your were committed,” Italics mine.
So sure, you are correct. I won’t argue with Scripture, but let us have it’s full context. “But thanks be to God…” which is elsewhere backed up in Romans 7:25 – “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other hand with my flesh the law of sin.”
Thanks be to God in my book means He did it, not me.
Romans 7 Doug I believe portrays this middle ground of which you speak, but I don’t think it is a third way or middle ground between sin and righteousness. What I do think it describes is our human frailty and the tension between our flesh as we are being continually sanctified by Christ through the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature in Christ, clothed with “frail humanity” the sinful flesh.
Galatians 5:17 – “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things ythat you please”
I don’t see a third, middle-ground option. I do see a continual war between flesh and Spirit, sin and righteousness, but its not being played out in some neutral ground like a Superbowl where more than likely the two teams are not from the city in which the game is being played.
Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body.
But then on the other hand, from where do our “righteous” works come? As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:5, not from ourselves.
“Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God.”
And verse 6 says also that God “…also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”
God made us adequate and the Spirit gives us life, not options, not choices, but life.
So we’ll be judged. Yes. But then it solely Christ alone Who enables us to stand in the judgment. And it is solely by His merit we obtain anything from God.
As Jesus says in John 15:5 – “…apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Not even choose rightly.
We are responsible, but God makes us adequate.
We were dead in sin, God made us alive in Christ.
We will be judged, but the Judge Himself has forgiven us in Christ.
We must decide, but He already decided before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).
Anyhow, Douglas, thanks for the links and stuff. Usually when I worry, I worry about hearing something in a sermon that’ll make me more worried. It’s difficult for me. And with Mr. Boyd, I just don’t trust his theology. As I mentioned earlier, he quotes almost entirely from the Old Testament to support his positions in the essay link you gave me. But what of Christ?
Lastly do you desire to be judged based on “your” choices or Christ’s?
Anyhow. Thanks again. It’s been great.
Dan
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hey again, Dan! Been very busy the last couple of days… so sorry it’s taken me a while to get back to you!
You mention Romans 6:16 but do not mention Romans 6:17, which says “But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which your were committed,” Italics mine.
I think Romans 6:16-17 is completely consistent with the view I expressed above at the beginning of post 67. There is a free will choice as to who or what we will try to obey. But our ability to obey is a separate topic. Whenever we succeed in being obedient, it is indeed thanks to the aid of the Spirit. So 16 and 17 are bringing two different truths into harmony.
Galatians 5:17 – “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please”
Again, I would zoom in on the phrase “the things that you please.” It is another instance where the choice in the matter is indeed yours, while the ability is not.
As Jesus says in John 15:5 – “…apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Not even choose rightly.
But I don’t think John 15:5 is saying we can’t “choose,” it’s just saying we can’t follow through (i.e. “do”) on that choice.
Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body.
But then on the other hand, from where do our “righteous” works come?
And here again I see two separate things at work. We are indeed “responsible” for our choice to follow God — or something else; but our “works” are completely tied up in the “obedience” end of the equation. Our freedom to choose is completely separate from our ability to obey.
We must decide, but He already decided before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).
The view that makes the most sense to me is that God, who sees our hearts, foreknew that there would be hearts in His Creation that would answer “yes” to Him. I think Ephesians is explaining that He “decided” to offer those hearts a path to reconciliation. I don’t think that Scripture is written in a way that makes it necessary for us to make assumptions about individuals. The Scripture makes complete sense when interpreting His foreknowledge as pointing to the “remnant” often described elsewhere in Scripture. His overall wish remains that everyone will choose to attempt follow Him, and, in so doing, accept His help — that of the Spirit. He wants everyone, and He’s always known for sure that some hearts were so soft already that a some “yes’s” were certain.
And with Mr. Boyd, I just don’t trust his theology. As I mentioned earlier, he quotes almost entirely from the Old Testament to support his positions in the essay link you gave me. But what of Christ?
Then it seems as though I offered you an essay that’s unusual for Greg Boyd. One of his root and theologically defining beliefs is that everything in Scripture must be interpreted through Jesus. That is, Jesus reveals God’s character fully and is the lens through which we understand all of Scripture. As an assurance of this, here’s another link… : )
It’s YouTube title is: The Old Testament Through the Lens of Jesus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQibs0mgTi8
You, of course, can listen to whomever you like. Personally, I think it’s important to see what other Christians are thinking. And to know what I think in response to their best and most sincere arguments. Hence my interest in Dr. Olasky’s blog. So, yes, it’s possible that you will disagree with any link I might provide to a Greg Boyd sermon. But I think you might feel better assured of your own theological opinions if you can provide good answers to each of his arguments — against Penal Substitution for instance. Iron sharpens iron… : )
Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body
When I read this, I’m tempted to think we’ve got a semantics issue… : )
But I do realize it’s more than that. It comes down to which explanation makes the most sense to each of us.
Grace & Peace to you, Brother!
Douglas
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By the way, Dan… certainly feel free to zap me an e-mail sometime. I think it’s interesting that we both swim and that we’re both in Texas. I was a competitive swimmer growing up…
Best!
Douglas
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