Best!
Douglas

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You mention Romans 6:16 but do not mention Romans 6:17, which says “But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which your were committed,” Italics mine.

I think Romans 6:16-17 is completely consistent with the view I expressed above at the beginning of post 67. There is a free will choice as to who or what we will try to obey. But our ability to obey is a separate topic. Whenever we succeed in being obedient, it is indeed thanks to the aid of the Spirit. So 16 and 17 are bringing two different truths into harmony.

Galatians 5:17 – “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please”

Again, I would zoom in on the phrase “the things that you please.” It is another instance where the choice in the matter is indeed yours, while the ability is not.

As Jesus says in John 15:5 – “…apart from Me you can do nothing.”
Not even choose rightly.

Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body.
But then on the other hand, from where do our “righteous” works come?

And here again I see two separate things at work. We are indeed “responsible” for our choice to follow God — or something else; but our “works” are completely tied up in the “obedience” end of the equation. Our freedom to choose is completely separate from our ability to obey.

We must decide, but He already decided before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

The view that makes the most sense to me is that God, who sees our hearts, foreknew that there would be hearts in His Creation that would answer “yes” to Him. I think Ephesians is explaining that He “decided” to offer those hearts a path to reconciliation. I don’t think that Scripture is written in a way that makes it necessary for us to make assumptions about individuals. The Scripture makes complete sense when interpreting His foreknowledge as pointing to the “remnant” often described elsewhere in Scripture. His overall wish remains that everyone will choose to attempt follow Him, and, in so doing, accept His help — that of the Spirit. He wants everyone, and He’s always known for sure that some hearts were so soft already that a some “yes’s” were certain.

And with Mr. Boyd, I just don’t trust his theology. As I mentioned earlier, he quotes almost entirely from the Old Testament to support his positions in the essay link you gave me. But what of Christ?

Then it seems as though I offered you an essay that’s unusual for Greg Boyd. One of his root and theologically defining beliefs is that everything in Scripture must be interpreted through Jesus. That is, Jesus reveals God’s character fully and is the lens through which we understand all of Scripture. As an assurance of this, here’s another link… : )

It’s YouTube title is: The Old Testament Through the Lens of Jesus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQibs0mgTi8

You, of course, can listen to whomever you like. Personally, I think it’s important to see what other Christians are thinking. And to know what I think in response to their best and most sincere arguments. Hence my interest in Dr. Olasky’s blog. So, yes, it’s possible that you will disagree with any link I might provide to a Greg Boyd sermon. But I think you might feel better assured of your own theological opinions if you can provide good answers to each of his arguments — against Penal Substitution for instance. Iron sharpens iron… : )

Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body

When I read this, I’m tempted to think we’ve got a semantics issue… : )

But I do realize it’s more than that. It comes down to which explanation makes the most sense to each of us.

Grace & Peace to you, Brother!
Douglas

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Greetings. Hope work was productive and all of that.

Scripture.

You mention Romans 6:16 but do not mention Romans 6:17, which says “But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which your were committed,” Italics mine.

So sure, you are correct. I won’t argue with Scripture, but let us have it’s full context. “But thanks be to God…” which is elsewhere backed up in Romans 7:25 – “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other hand with my flesh the law of sin.”

Thanks be to God in my book means He did it, not me.

Romans 7 Doug I believe portrays this middle ground of which you speak, but I don’t think it is a third way or middle ground between sin and righteousness. What I do think it describes is our human frailty and the tension between our flesh as we are being continually sanctified by Christ through the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature in Christ, clothed with “frail humanity” the sinful flesh.
Galatians 5:17 – “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things ythat you please”

I don’t see a third, middle-ground option. I do see a continual war between flesh and Spirit, sin and righteousness, but its not being played out in some neutral ground like a Superbowl where more than likely the two teams are not from the city in which the game is being played.

Again, I fully agree with you that we are responsible moral agents who will be judged for our actions and deeds in the body.

But then on the other hand, from where do our “righteous” works come? As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:5, not from ourselves.

“Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God.”

And verse 6 says also that God “…also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

God made us adequate and the Spirit gives us life, not options, not choices, but life.

So we’ll be judged. Yes. But then it solely Christ alone Who enables us to stand in the judgment. And it is solely by His merit we obtain anything from God.

As Jesus says in John 15:5 – “…apart from Me you can do nothing.”

Not even choose rightly.

We are responsible, but God makes us adequate.

We were dead in sin, God made us alive in Christ.

We will be judged, but the Judge Himself has forgiven us in Christ.

We must decide, but He already decided before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).

Anyhow, Douglas, thanks for the links and stuff. Usually when I worry, I worry about hearing something in a sermon that’ll make me more worried. It’s difficult for me. And with Mr. Boyd, I just don’t trust his theology. As I mentioned earlier, he quotes almost entirely from the Old Testament to support his positions in the essay link you gave me. But what of Christ?

Lastly do you desire to be judged based on “your” choices or Christ’s?

Anyhow. Thanks again. It’s been great.

Dan

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Dan

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The struggle I have in embracing your postion is that history itself testifies to countless numbers of folks who were not Christians. Yes, they rejected God on their own volition, but I also believe God hardened their hearts and prepared them for destruction.

I’d just say that my belief is that, when Scripture indicates that God hardened someone’s heart, it is not to be taken as His universal practice. It is done to prepare and carry out specific plans. Judas Iscariot comes to mind. But is it safe for us to assume that even Judas didn’t come back around and repent? If he did, we would not necessarily know it. But, based on Jesus’ offering of forgiveness to his enemies while on the cross, I think the door was open for Judas to repent. Pure speculation, I know. But you see my point…? I think there is the possibility that God hardens hearts temporarily to achieve His purposes.

Again, Doug, whenever you bring this up, it appears to me to posit some sort of middle ground between sin and the Spirit, both sort of competing with each other for our allegiance.

That’s exactly how I see it. We are in the middle of a spiritual war. With everything hanging on who we choose to obey. Take Romans 6:16, for instance (The New Living Translation):

Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

I have a bit more on this… but it’ll have to wait, cuz I’ve got to hit the road for work!

Again, blessings to you!

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And, with that in mind, I keep several sermons on my iPod which speak about our worrying. I’ve posted an excerpt from one of them on YouTube. So don’t “worry” about his Open Theism while on this topic, and see if this offering from Greg Boyd is helpful… : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUmuMcMCVc

I’ve got a couple of other “worry” sermons from other pastors that I’d love to get to you. They are mp3’s, and I’d have to put them on my Web space so that you could download them. Please e-mail me at deepcoffee@yahoo.com, and we can arrange that.

Blessings to you!
Douglas

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Rough night for me. I covet your prayers. Nothing “happened” its just that I’ve been plagued with intense thoughts of my own mortality and feeling “trapped”, not sensing I can do much of anything to improve. It’s weird, the older I get, the more I can recognize when I’m depressed but still have relatively no control over how or when it manifests.

I know its a sin to worry, but I’m consumed with it. A comment in another post about something I said hasn’t helped matters. I think maybe I’ve given this blog way too much of my energy and time. That may be part of this. I’m drained mentally and that’s usually an indicator.

You all have been so kind and gracious.Thanks.

Dan

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