I’m glad your sister had the support and loving sacrifice of so many. Love is after all, the church’s greatest apologetic.

I happen to believe wholeheartedly in the sovereignty of God concerning salvation. My post above was not a denial of biblical truth. Nor was I criticizing those believers who are commited to upholding and teaching doctrine without compromise.

Rather I was stressing the point that doctrine is used by some to lord authority over others and hide their own disobedience in sanctimonious posturing which hurts our fellow believers in Christ and damages our witness to the watching world.

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I’m not a member of a Reformed or “Calvinist” church, but I know for a certainty their doctrine does not remotely excuse such attitudes as are slapped on them above. And I’m pretty sure the stereotyping and sanctimonious trashing of the “many” unnamed, straw-man malefactors who are guilty, ipso facto, of pride and sloth because they hold to doctrines that are well within the bounds of orthodoxy, is not pleasing to Our Lord.

This is false witness in action, not to mention bigotry. I’m amazed at what I’m reading!

May I add that historically, Presbyterian and other Reformed churches were at the forefront of global missions. South Korea, for example: “Within the major Protestant traditions there are a total of 121 denominations, approximately 90 percent of which are separate Presbyterian groups.” (Wiki)

May I also add that my sister, who died last week, was an ordinary member of a conservative Presbyterian church and the practical, organized, hands-on help lavished on her and her family on a daily basis over a four-year battle with cancer is the most astonishing, hard-working, sustained love I have EVER witnessed.

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Montyfisherwoof – 74

Thank you for your kindness – let’s keep on telling everyone about our Savior. God bless you

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Deet – 66

Thank you for your post and kind words.

You remarked…. “It seems to me, you’ve been offended perhaps deeply hurt by some from the various churches you’ve mentioned attending in the past. I’m sorry for that.

The church is too often a place, unfortunately, where the wounded are routinely shot and our “childlike” faith is manifested as nothing more than childishness.”

My hurt has been for others, and perhaps myself – however I am convinced that the discussion of predestination serves no purpose to a hurting world, those who have yet come to Christ as Savior and repented. It does nothing but wound those who look at those who profess to be Christian Believers as elitist, and that is something we should avoid, WE don’t know how all this has come about…. after all GOD’s thoughts are far about ours – only GOD knew before the foundation of the world who would and would not believe, and therefore would come to HIM.

Let us spread the Gospel, that is what we are called to do.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

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Deet, I thought you expressed yourself marvelously.

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I am not alluding to their being a problem. I am putting forth what I believe and if the shoe fits then think about it a bit. We should not be calling ourselves names.
(Now Barack Obama is a different kettle of fish. You have my permission to call him anything you want )
Kyle,
Stauch and extreme? I am not sure what you mean . Staunch as in staunch ally, I can see that. Extreme? I am extremely happy. I am extremely at peace. I feel extremely well. As far as philosophy I would hope that what I expressed would be accepted as universal. That to be a Christian we need to accept Jesus as our personal lord and saviour.
As far as denominations go I think we are all a pinch of Presbyterian, a bit of Baptist, a little Lutheran, an angstrom of Anglican, and a half cup of Catholic. The portions may vary from person to person, but our common ground is Jesus.

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I was walking across a bridge one day and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said,
“Stop! Don’t do it!”
“Why shouldn’t I?” he said.
“Well, there is so much to live for.”
“Like what?”
“Well, are you religious?”
He said yes.
I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?”
“Christian.”
“Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?”
“Protestant.”
“Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?”
“Baptist.”
“Wow, me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?”
“Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?”
“Reformed Baptist Church of God.”
“Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?”
He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.”
So I said, “Die, heretic scum!” and pushed him off.

~ Emo Phillips

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I have run into such staunch and extreme views primarily among radical Baptist people and among Grace Brethren people as well. In general I have not seen it among Presbyterians, although I actually have not known very many Presbyterians in real life.

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Those ideas are fine, but how do Calvinists misuse labels, or violate any of the sentiments you mention; and if you know of examples, can you post a few indicating it’s a far-reaching thing? I’m a “Reformed” believer, and I don’t claim I or similar believers are perfect, but I don’t commonly see the problems you or others have alluded to.

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