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Endangerment or not?
When Montana mother Bridget Kevane dropped her three kids and two of their friends — two 12-year-old girls, and three younger kids, age 8, 7, and 3 — off at a mall in 2007, little did she know that authorities would soon arrest her on child endangerment charges. According to authorities, the two 12-year-olds left their young charges unsupervised in Macy’s, spurring store employees to contact the police, who then summoned Kevane and her husband to the mall where they arrested Kevane.
Kevane, 45, who wrote in an essay published in this month’s issue of parenting magazine “Brain, Child,” said that her decision to let the kids go to the mall unsupervised stemmed from the fact that “the children wanted an activity, and I wanted a couple of hours of quiet and rest.”
Further justifying her decision was the fact that the two older girls had both completed a babysitting certification course at a nearby hospital and that the group of five children consistently spent time together and were like “extended family” to one another.
“I have faith in my daughter… I had no reason to doubt her,” Kevane said.
Kevane’s story is grabbing the attention of parenting groups that are (perhaps surprisingly) rallying to support her, saying the charges were an “abuse of power” since Kevane wasn’t “intentionally trying to harm” the children. What’s your take on the situation?
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They’re her children. She knows them better than anyone else. They were not malnourished, abused, or in a life threatening situation. The state should stay out of it.
I am frankly frightened of the State’s unaccountable power in child protection cases. I’ve heard enough stories about mere accusations, though unfounded, putting families through hell.
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There are 12 year olds and then there are 12 year olds. I probably wouldn’t do it, but I don’t think, in the absence of something more, it should be a crime.
I can remember getting accidentally separated from my kid or kids several times while shopping in a department store.
The media have trained an awful lot of people to believe that there is a predator lurking behind every dress rack.
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If it weren’t for the three year old I might agree with her. I wouldn’t have done this. I don’t have a lot of faith in 12 year olds.
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Taking care of children in a home and taking care of the same children in a mall are rather different. The babysitting course would have been oriented toward the former situation.
There are a lot of distractions in a mall, both for the 12-year-olds and the younger children. Like Arcadia, and probably most parents, I’ve “lost” my child while shopping, and while I found him myself most of the times, a couple times (once with each son) it was store employees who located him.
Of course, to me that shows the greater difficulty of watching children in a store, and the lack of wisdom in leaving them with a couple of 12-year-olds. Most of the time, such situations will end as this one did, with responsible adults getting the kids safely back to their parents. But unfortunately there are the exceptions, when a predator does take advantage of such an opportunity, or a curious child simply ventures outdoors and wanders into traffic.
I don’t think criminal charges are necessary, but the incident may help, for a while, for adults to pay closer attention to children in public places.
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One twelve year old should have been responsible for the three year old, the other for the other two. If they were sent as a group with no specifics like that, chaos can quickly ensue. As mentioned, there are twelve year olds and twelve year olds. Only the parents know the responsibility level of the ones in charge and the behavior of the other three. I don’t think I would have done the same but more because I did not have any children interested in hanging out in a mall. They would have prefered a park.
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Why do folks expect strangers to care more about their children than they do??
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Unsupervised minors, of any age, in a mall is never a good idea. Way too many things can go wrong.
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I have an almost 12 yr old girl and I would not drop her and a friend off by themselves much less with other children to keep up with. That being said, I don’t think this is an arrestable offense. I just think she was guilty of poor judgement. On the other hand what would she have done if something happened to one of the children.
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This strikes me as very poor judgment, especially in a climate like we have today when parents are almost under suspicion for leaving a 16-year-old in a fenced backyard without a babysitter. (Tongue in cheek.)
I know of a case much more “benign” than this in which the parents ludicrously ended up on charges of child endangerment (the parents paid their 14 or 15-year-old son to watch the two younger children, neither of them a toddler or baby, in a van on a 70-degree day, with water to drink, full instructions, and the van parked right outside the office where the parents were in a business meeting). What I learned from that experience, in which the parents went to jail for a couple of days until they posted bail, was that in today’s society it is not enough for parents to use their own judgment about what is safe. They simply must treat their children as much younger and less responsible than they are in terms of when to safely leave them alone. In a day when kids get pregnant daily in large numbers, and drunk, and high, etc., you would think the police would have too much to do to go after responsible parents, but you’d be wrong.
I agree that this was irresponsible, especially when it involved a three-year-old, but probably not arrestable.
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As Iunderstand it, Kevane is not the mother of the 8, 7 and one 12 year, only one 12 year old and the three year old. It seems to me that she made an assumption that because she was comfortable with the two 12 year olds watching these kids, that the parents of the 8 and 7 year olds wouldn’t have a problem with it either. 12 year old girls are easily diverted by the products sold in a mall and can forget their major responsibility — the little kids. I hated going to the mall with my sister and her three. She led the way, the kids were in the middle, and I was always bringing up the rear.
This was poor judgment, but I don’t see overwhelming stupidity or malicious intent. I wouldn’t have done it.
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Of course, there are malls and there are malls. We have a mall in Lewiston where there are seldom more than twenty five customers in the whole place. Each store has a couple of employees or more. There is a Macy’s. In a mall like that, I would have no problem leaving the five together with instructions if the older two were responsible. There are other malls that I would not. Lots of unknowns for making decisions here.
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Yeah, this was pretty irresponsible of Mom. But what about the older two?
“12 year old girls are easily diverted by the products sold in a mall and can forget their major responsibility — the little kids.” With all due respect, Ms. Lawyer, that’s bull. The 12-year-olds should be facing charges along with Mom! If they’ve been entrusted with a task they don’t fulfill, they’re just as responsible as the assigner of the task, whether or not the task was fair or stupid.
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I don’t think the charges are that ridiculous. My understanding is that “endangerment” requires the acts to be not malicious, just criminally irresponsible. And this seems AWFULLY irresponsible. Whether it’s criminally irresponsible or not is the proper jurisdiction of a jury, so I won’t give an opinion
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I do not understand how people are concluding this is irresponsible unless they are also saying it is irresponsible to have a 12 year old babysit in the home. Either the 12 is responsible or is not. The environment is not that critical (though there are exceptions) if the sitter is responsible. I have seen sitters I would not allow near my child and they are often much older than that.
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Too true, Mumsee!
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On that note, Mumsee, I have a friend who is now past ninety. She told me that when she was ten, she was the babysitter for a couple, and years later (when she was an adult), she happened to run into the mother, who recognized her voice and queried if she’d been that same babysitter, and then told her she was the best babysitter they ever had. Now, I’m not sure I’d trust a ten-year-old to know what to do in case of an emergency, but I wouldn’t trust most 30-year-olds, either!
When I was about 18, I did occasional babysitting for a family down the street, who had two children nine months apart (the younger one born two months premature). One day when the children were toddlers–let’s say about 15 and 24 months, something like that, but for sure the younger one was well under two and not yet completely walking on her own–I went to babysit the kids, and the father came out to let me in, and spent a few minutes telling me everything that I needed to know for the evening. And then he casually told me the children were in the tub, which immediately frightened me, because the older child could easily have accidentally drowned his little sister by that time if he had fallen on her. Either could have drowned. Yet here I was, the 18-year-old babysitter who would never so much as answer the phone while these little ones were in the tub, and their own father had left them unsupervised for several minutes.
Responsibility, wisdom, and common sense really do matter more than age, though I would tend to assume that two twelve-year-olds are highly unlikely to have the necessary wisdom and maturity to do this even if nothing goes wrong, and highly unlikely to handle it if anything does go wrong.
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“I do not understand how people are concluding this is irresponsible unless they are also saying it is irresponsible to have a 12 year old babysit in the home. Either the 12 is responsible or is not. The environment is not that critical.”
That’s incredibly untrue. Unless you have strangers parading about your home, doors unlocked, public restrooms, and a lot of breakable stuff lining shelves.
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Cheryl,
Not knowing anything more about the story than the information you’ve given, I believe those two parents should definitely have been punished in some way. The interior of parked cars can climb to incredible heats, even if the windows are open and water is provided. 70 degree heat outside could easily climb to over 100 degrees inside, and very quickly.
It’s one thing for parents to use their own judgment regarding their own children and it’s another when that judgment is so faulty that it endangers the children.
Here are some articles about it for you.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/parked-cars-could-kill-you-in-8-minutes-3920.html
http://www.dasnr.okstate.edu/Members/trisha.gedon-40okstate.edu/heat-in-parked-cars-can-be-deadly-for-children/
http://www.orangecountyfl.net/cms/dept/cesrvcs/animal/petsinhotcars.htm
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I wouldn’t have EVER allowed a 12 year old to baby sit a 3 year old, except at home as siblings – further more there would have been no other visiting children – and this only for an hour.
Twelve year olds are not competent to care for such young children for any extended length of time – it’s not fair to the 12 year old to have such responsibility. If this happened in California the mother most certainly would have been arrested.
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Really, OT? Tell me about how we prosecute people under the age of 14 in this country? What are the rules?
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Mumsee,
Environment makes a difference, because the range of possible situations that could arise in a public area such as a store is much different, and probably much wider, than what could happen in a home, especially one that is familiar to the children (both the sitters and the sitted).
In the home, there are already established rules of what is permitted and what is not. The sitters have to enforce those rules, which can be difficult enough, but it’s a lot more difficult to decide on the spur of the moment whether a small child should be allowed to do something or go somewhere, in a new environment, and then figuring out what to do when the child does not obey. Discipline in public is hard enough for many parents, and would be harder for a couple of 12-year-olds.
I’m not excusing the 12-year-olds – you’d think that whatever course they took in babysitting would have made them realize that leaving younger children unsupervised in Macy’s was a bad idea. But they may well have reasoned (perhaps unconsciously) that the adult who put them there must have thought it was a safe enough place that they didn’t have to keep the little ones under constant attention. After all, in the house, they could let a younger child go into another room without following every step, especially if the younger ones were not known for getting into trouble.
An adult or an older and more experienced teen would realize that’s not the case, that young children need closer supervision in new and unfamiliar situations, especially in public. But that kind of wisdom comes from age and experience.
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Well, let me think back. Yes, I do believe I left children unattended in a store while I tried on a piece of clothing. They were told to sit on the chairs outside the waiting room and wait for me. They did. So, in the world a lot of you live in, I should have been arrested? That is so bizarre to me! And I am one of the ones working regularly with the “troubled” elements of society! This is mindboggling that you folks are so scared of your fellow man that it has come to the point where a trusted twelve year old cannot take responsibility for a younger sibling for a couple of hours.
As far as the mall or home. In my experience, a sitter at home is more distracted by tv or telephone than these two exhibited by leaving their charges outside the door while they tried on shirts. It is not like the little ones you see running about the stores getting into things while mom or dad is selecting a movie. It is three little kids waiting for their sitters to come out of the dressing room. A responsible eight year old can certainly watch a well behaved three year old for five minutes if it was even that long.
I am surprised anybody ever leaves their homes.
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From what I read about the town and the Mall, this doesn’t seem that much different than five kids walking to the park or to school together. I think the police and the mall employees overreacted. My siblings and I were younger than this when we used to walk three blocks from Grandmother’s house to the park or five blocks to the store.
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Mumsee,
I hadn’t read the linked article before. If the three kids were simply waiting on a bench outside the dressing room, that would be little different than if they were waiting for a parent in the dressing room. (Though all the article says is that they were “unsupervised,” not whether they were waiting quietly where the babysitters left them.)
I do think where you live makes a lot of difference. Here in rural Iowa, people tend to be more trusting of one another, presumably because experience has not taught them to be as suspicious as people were in the more densely populated areas on the east coast where I used to live. (You can actually pump your gas without prepaying here. I forget that when we go somewhere on vacation, and I can’t understand why the gas pump won’t work until I notice the “prepayment required” sign.)
A few years ago, when I was still fairly new in this community, I had a car accident on the way to drop off my kindergarten son at school. While I was waiting for the police to arrive, a man stopped and offered to take my son to school for me. When I hesitated, he showed me his badge, indicating that he worked at the school and knew my son. I let him, because I recognized the badge as that of school staff/faculty, and I didn’t want to teach my son to distrust everyone. But I still worried a little, because I could imagine the possibility that a predator could have made a badge that looked similar to the real ones.
I once lived in what I was told was a safe neighborhood. I felt safe until one night a man broke into my apartment at night and raped me. Probably hundreds or thousands of young women have lived in similar neighborhoods without ever being raped, and I don’t want them to live in fear of it. But those bad things do happen, even in our own homes, and it’s not always to someone else that you read about in the news.
I do my best to find a balance between caution and just going about life as though it were as safe as it seems, knowing that the only real security is in God (who does not always keep those bad things from happening to us or those we love). Caution and experience, however, have taught me to take young children into the changing room with me.
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Mumsee – trying on a piece of clothing, leaving children outside the dressing room for a few minutes is a far cry from dropping kids aged 3 – 12 off at the mall – no comparison –
And the mother says:
“the children wanted an activity, and I wanted a couple of hours of quiet and rest.”
So the stores, employees, shoppers could watch the kids while the 12 year olds took off to do their thing –
The stores where I live would have taken the children, tried to find who was in charge – if they weren’t found right away, the police would have been called – stores do not want the responsibility of children running up and down the escalator, which is dangerous going backwards falling, etc. Children not being able to find their sitter, trying to go out heavy glass doors with little fingers being harmed –
Mama’s rest was first, the kids safety wasn’t considered.
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Pauline,
That was my point earlier, we don’t know the situation or the kids. The mom seems to be a good mom, involved with her kids, caring and giving a responsibility like that to a growing one is a way to help them grow up into contributing citizens. I am concerned that we are developing a country where children are not trusted until they are eighteen and then thrust out into the world and expected to handle it all. Growing responsible is a process and it appears this child had shown herself responsible in the past, thereby warranting this arrangement. When my kids act responsibly, they are given more responsibilities. When they act irresponsibly, they lose responibility and privilege. That is how one trains up a child. The mother is responsible to do what she thinks is right. She knows her neighborhood. Are we saying that no child should be allowed out the door without an adult? Are we saying nobody should be allowed to drive a car because their are accidents? Yours was a worse case scenario and we should all be alert for that and aware and take precautions. But I do not think you are advocating total secutiry on every home because of it. You warn people, you let them know it can happen, and that is what you should do. Parents need to take the information they have and do the best they can to raise up a child.
Twelve is not so young. My ten and eleven year olds were helping with haying season the past couple of weeks. They did things I would not allow my twelve year old to do as she has not proven a willingness to follow directions implicitly. It is a case by case question.
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oops, for spelling patrol: I caught the error of there/their.
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Victoria,
Have you been to the mall in question? Many malls do not have escalators or a lot of people. A well trained child can sit by the dressing room door with an older child. A brat does not sit for anybody. We see brats a lot, they are running around stores while mom chats on the phone, or handles the merchandise, or dad tries out lawn furninture, or whatever. I do not know that these children were brats. My children are fairly well behaved, I therefore conclude it is possible that somebody else could have well behaved trustworthy children. Sorry to hear there are so many others with uncontrolled children who seem unable to fathom the idea of a three year old behaving in a store without constant vigilance.
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Are we then saying that children should not go outside to shoot hoops? Or ride a bike? Or play tag? Or go fishing? Or read a book in the tree? Or go to the park? Or play on the playground? Or go to a friend’s house? Or walk the dog? At what age are they allowed to be in life?
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I think we may have found one of my hot buttons.
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Mumsee – lets not get carried away – children playing outside, tag, reading under a tree? – you’re mixing the activities and ages up.
Malls aren’t baby-sitters – even good kids don’t belong in a mall at 12 without adults – Our malls were experiencing lots of kids being dropped off to amuse themselves, many who shop became tired of kids running through the stores. Thankfully we don’t have to put up with it anymore.
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Child endangerment sounds a little excessive as a charge, but some lesser sort of child neglect might be appropriate.
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No, malls are not babysitters. They are inanimate objects. Nor are they casinos or bars. They are stores. Are we saying a twelve year old cannot take a younger sibling to the store for an ice cream cone? There was no part of the story saying these children were racing through stores wreaking havoc. Are you telling me, Victoria, that you do not believe a twelve year old is responsible? Is a thirteen year old? What about a fourteen year old mother, should she be required to have a babysitter if she is strolling with her toddler through the mall?
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Mumsee –
No I don’t believe a twelve year olds should be taking a three year old to the mall to babysit, because mama wants to take a nap and relax.
Again you are mix-matching all sorts of ages and activities -
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At what age should a child be given responsiblity? Or do we prefer children of that age to be free to do the things so many irresponsible kids do? Yes, twelve year olds do drugs and drink and have sex. I would prefer to have them taking some responsibility and learning from it then to treat them as babies to the point where they feel of no value and slip into these other negative behaviors.
Last week, a woman was down by the river playing with her two children. The kids had on life jackets. The younger was caught by the current and swept away though the mom tried to pull her back as did other bystanders. Eventually, the child was pulled out quite some distance away and is fine. Her core temp was 88 but the life jacket was of the kind that held her head up. Should the mom be charged with something? We are all celebrating the child is alive and the deputies who leaped into the water to rescue her.
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Victoria, so what should the twelve year old do? Or is she too young to watch her sister?
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If malls are so dangerous, we should enact legislation requiring id checks at the door, making certain nobody under the age of eighteen is allowed in. Or twenty one if we are going with the drinking age rather than the ability to go fight in a war age.
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I had babysitters as young as 12 and found them to be very responsible. Of course, I knew their parents or them and knew them before I had them. And yes, I had them even babysit an infant. This was before cell phones, but they always knew where we could be reached and they had emergency numbers and all information that they would need. They usually also had their parents they could have called.
We found that after sitters turned fifteen or sixteen they were usually too involved in a lot of stuff to babysit much anymore. We did have one that we were able to have for years and were quite grateful.
One of our neighbors had a ten year old babysit several children during the day as she worked. I thought that was a bit young, but all went fine.
Some very young children can be very responsible. We have gotten a little ridiculous. I agree with “there are twelve year olds and their are twelve year olds”. If all twelve year olds are too young to babysit, there should not be classes to train them in it. In fact, shouldn’t whoever trained these children to babysit be prosecuted also, since they contributed to the idea that they could babysit?
I don’t think leaving these children at the mall was a good idea, but to think anyone should be prosecuted is ridiculous. But then, I am with mumsee that I wouldn’t have wanted mine hanging out at the mall. One of mine did go to the library after school from the time of third grade on, since it was right across from the school and we picked her up there. We always tried to be there on time.
I shudder over what some of my children or grandchildren may be prosecuted for in this over-zealous era. I look back and find that many, many young people could have ended up being seriously traumatized over some stupid thing they did, but society realized everything isn’t done with evil intent.
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I had a divorced boss who almost lost her children for leaving an 8 year old and a 10 years alone each day from the time the got home from school to when she got off work. (about 3:30 to 8:00). She could afford to quit work and she couldn’t afford a sitter.
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WOW ! Strong posts! And I am finding myself agreeing with people I don’t usually agree with. I am frankly frightened of the State’s unaccountable power in child protection cases. I’ve heard enough stories about mere accusations, though unfounded, putting families through hell. I absolutely agree with you here JJF.
) when she says, “ I wouldn’t have done this. I don’t have a lot of faith in 12 year olds. “. Pauline gets it right when she says ,” Taking care of children in a home and taking care of the same children in a mall are rather different. The babysitting course would have been oriented toward the former situation. ” Mumsee shows insight when he says ,” Lots of unknowns for making decisions here. “
I also agree with Kbells (I usually agree with kbells
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she not he.
Frankly I am grateful that the police were called by the mall. I think it is horrid to assume that the mall be responsible for unattended kids. Maturity is a process where some obtain it earlier than others. Some twelve year olds are incredibly mature. I know that I was. But I also see many twelve year olds that are immature as three year olds. (By the way , how old is Arcadia?)
As to whether it was or wasn’t child endangerment I lean towards Mumsee. There are a lot of variables. I am not convinced that the mother took into account all of the variables. The sensible thing to have done is for her to hire someone to go with the kids. Someone old enough and mature enough to get the kids out of the way if trouble came down. No arguments about ‘We can’t afford it!” There are plenty of people around that would take the kids for nothing or a nominal fee. Grand parents especially. Youth ministers also. And if you can’t afford or have been unwise enough not to find good additional support, then you shouldn’t drop the kids off anywhere. Malls and libraries are not in the baby sitting business.
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Unwise, yes. Criminal, not really. Stupid, maybe. Arrestible, judgment call there.
Despite the fact that Hillary Clinton was a plagiarist with “It takes a village” it really does take a village in a village. We live in a country that has a variety of people. But does everyone take good advantage of that? When I take a friend out they always seemed surprised by how many clerks and store managers know me by name. And that I know the managers’ and clerks’ names and a little bit about them. Develop your village. Not everyone in the village needs to be a Calvinist. (Nor a snail.) Relish that God has placed many people around you and that more likely than not most of them have good hearts. (At least in the USA) Don’t be afraid to talk with people. See them as people. Talk to your kids about them. Pray over all of them.
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Mynock, I agree with you when you say ,” And this seems AWFULLY irresponsible. Whether it’s criminally irresponsible or not is the proper jurisdiction of a jury, so I won’t give an opinion ” I also agree with your post #17.
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Mumsee, I completely agree with you that it is a case by case basis. A parent needs to know their own children. And what they can and cannot be trusted with. And that takes time and energy. Time and energy that is one of the best investments that can be made.
.
I think I would love to be one of your kids, Mumsee
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So, is this the consensus? The majority of folks here think a child of twelve should not be responsible for a three year old sister in a mall for a couple of hours? And I ask again: where should a twelve year old be practicing these skills? Do we all know and understand that the majority of child molestations and other abuses by babysitters happen in the home? I know that I would prefer to have a responsible sitter watching my child in a public place where help could be obtained in a moment. There are far more incidents of things happening in the home than in the mall. And as someone mentioned, younger sitters seem to be more diligent than older as far as following direction and common sense. Now, if it is one of those big malls with a thousand people, that would be different. But if it is just a local mall with fifty employees and twenty patrons and most of the patrons know each other, what is the difficulty? I am trying but not getting it. I hear the same thing: this is terrible and poor judgement. Why?
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Montyfisherwoof,
Thank you, very kind. I have heard that before and yet my kids tell me I am scarey. They say it is because I know things, like when they do what they ought not, and that I will follow through. But they like it.
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Lia, post 18, OK, so let me give you “more of the story.” It’s a myth that a van in the shade on a 70-degree day with the windows down a bit can get to a deadly internal temperature during a 45-minute meeting, or that kids in such a situation within view of their parents are in danger. (Locking a baby in a carseat and leaving him would be a whole different situation. That wasn’t anything close to the case here.) It’s a myth that a 15-year-old sitting in that vehicle with his younger siblings isn’t old enough to be responsible for them. It’s a myth that children in such a setting with water to drink, the doors locked, and a responsible young adult in charge of them are in any real danger.
Guess what? I grew up in Phoenix, which happens to be much hotter than the California town where this event happened. And my parents occasionally left us three younger ones in the car while they went into the store for a few minutes. They would never have done it in the summer, but for guaranteed sure they did it on 70-degree days. (There’s almost no such thing as a day that doesn’t reach 70 in Phoenix!) I’m not saying they were wise to do this. In fact they probably were not. But I can tell you as the kid who sat in the car on many such days, hotter than 70 degrees and possibly not in a shaded car, and certainly left without water to drink or any responsible teen to supervise us, that the children in their brother’s care were not in any danger. And also, at 15 he was old enough to be a paid babysitter for another family, and his parents were paying him to babysit his siblings–that it should be legal to babysit in such a situation for another family, but dangerous because they were his siblings, is stupid beyond words, and an arrogant assumption by the state. He was already six feet tall by the way, no mere child and no reason for onlookers to be concerned in the first place, except for the ridiculousness of California society.
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Mumsee, I didn’t read the linked story, but what is reported here (leaving the children unsupervised in Macey’s) suggested leaving the kids in one store to be rid of the little pests, and going on to another store by themselves. I’d say the average 12-year-old with a friend would be quite likely to do such a thing, and a parent who had trusted a kid who later did this would possibly be showing parental error in judgment.
I myself was babysitting occasionally at 12 or 13, and doing so responsibly–but looking back now, I know how woefully I would have been prepared for any emergencies (a bleeding child, a seizure, a fire)–most likely I could have kept the kids safe, but I don’t know that I could have handled a situation with any real wisdom. The particular child I babysat lived next door to my home, so it was actually ideal training, except that the child was so horribly disobedient to the grandparents who had custody that no teen had any possible chance of gaining good obedience.
I’d be inclined to think 12 is too young for public supervision of children except in a small town where other adults know the kids and will be watching out for them (and reporting to parents if the 12-year-olds are indeed not being responsible).
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45. Personally, most 12 year olds I know would not be responsible enough, however, unless the kids were causes problem or in danger it certainly shouldn’t be against the law.
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47. My mother almost always left us in the car when she did her weekly grocery shopping. The worse that happened is that we fought the whole time.
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Cheryl D,
I did read the article. The five were in one store together and the two 12’s went in to try on shirts. That may have been one minute, may have been two hours. Not enough info. The kids may have been wreaking havoc, crying because older sis did not buy them a toy, or sitting quietly reading a book. Not enough info. The mall may have been a mega mall or may have been what I have described where the kids were the only customers in the store. Not enough info. Are there parents who leave six, eight, five year olds unattended in stores? Sure. Are there parents whose six, eight, and five are for all intents and purposes, unattended in stores with their parents there? Sure. Should they be prosecuted for not keeping a certain standard of eye contact with said child? Should they be holding hands while paying the bill? Where is the line being drawn? Or can a parent make a judgement call? If a twelve year old is responsible enough to babysit (as are some younger children) they should be able to handle it in a public forum. If a child is not, then he should not be babysitting anywhere. Yes, there are occassions that arise and the sitter is not prepared emotionally or cognitively to deal with it. Same with parents. But the vast majority of the time, the child just needs a familiar face to keep him in line. Do we do our children a service by not allowing them to exercise responsibility until they leave the home? We see that in parents who are filling out their kids college applications!! What kind of preparedness is that? Do they do the kids schoolwork as well? Do they go to work for them so they can play and be safe?
I was a babysitter at sixteen and on and do not think I would have hired me! I was about the most irresponsible person out there. I had no awareness of the kids or their needs, just in it for the money. But there are some responsible types out there and by nurturing that, we can help them develop into very capable adults.
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KBells,
I think that is why kids were left in cars, to get the fighting done without the parents involvement.
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Malls aren’t dangerous, they aren’t areas for pre-teens to baby sit either.
Baby sitting one’s younger sibling at home is a whole different story than dropping them off at a mall to be cared for – TWO entirely different situations.
Shoving children off to a Macy’s because you want to take a ‘break’ from them doesn’t impress me at all. Obviously the mother –
The kids were probably noisy, – so that would mean they were quite little angels once they jumped out of the car at the mall? LOL -
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A follow little league told this story on her SIL. It is great for those who dislike busy bodies. She was in a restaurant with her two children and her daughter started acting up. Meaning dessert, she said to her “If you don’t straighten up you’re not getting anything.” A woman walking by stopped and told “You know it’s against the law to deny food to a child in Alabama”.
The SIL said nothing but watch the woman have a drink at the bar then leave. SIL followed her to the parking lot and just before she pulled out tapped on the window and said You know it’s against the law to drink and drive in Alabama.”
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Victoria,
Why are they not areas for pre-teens to baby sit?
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Mumsee, because the stores where I live say so!
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53. Having been a working mom and a SAHM without backup, I doubt she was being just lazy. She probably really needed a couple of hours of quiet and rest.
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56. Was there a sign that said kids could not come in without their parents?
Though I do like the sign I saw recently in a store, “Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.”
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Victoria 56,
That is a totally different reason. Of course, the mall owners get to decide what is acceptable in their store and if they choose to ban unattended customers, that is their call. But there was nothing in this story that indicated it was against the store policy to have young customers without an adult in attendance.
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Perhaps, Victoria, you are refering to loitering laws? But if they were shopping while babysitting, is that loitering? Do they check you when you leave to make certain you bought something and fine you or cart you off to jail if you didn’t?
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Where we live, people are encouraged to go into the mall to get out of the heat. Especially old people and people with small children. I guess it is because they care about their fellow man. There are many benches for sitting down and waiting for shoppers, or to just enjoy the coolness inside for a bit. People walk by and smile pleasantly or issue a greeting. People with strollers amble along, people with walkers and in wheelchairs. It seems like a very pleasant place to let a child practice independence. Not all malls are like that.
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Mumsee
No I wasn’t refering to “loitering laws” LOL -
LOL – going astray from the subject –
Gotta run, we are going to dinner, and I am shopping for the new harem pants that are so popular this summer -
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Might want to stay out of the mall, don’t want to get carded..
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Hmm….
I live in the DFW area, and I once tried to go to a (large indoor) mall during the day right around the time the public schools were getting out for the summer. I was a legal adult, as were the two people with me. One of them was a member of the Air Force. We were driving a car with a high school parking sticker. The security guard at the entrance to the mall parking lot told us to turn around, we weren’t wanted. We ended up parking elsewhere and walking into the mall a different way, and we found many kids much younger than we were. Obviously, if high schoolers aren’t wanted, twelve year olds who are unattended won’t be wanted either!
In my area, there is no mall where it would be remotely safe to leave two twelve year olds with three younger children, no matter how responsible those twelve year olds are. It would be much too easy for them to simply disappear. I was allowed to babysit when I was twelve, but only at home and only with my slightly older younger siblings.
As for leaving children in cars – I haven’t actually looked up the TX law, but I believe the children must be accompanied by an adult if they are under 14 years of age. My mother has called the police about children left in cars before, and the police actually came.
However, I live in TX and I have sat in a parked car before; I’ve had long discussions in parked cars, actually. I have also sat down in a parked car right after opening the doors. There is no way that a car would become deadly hot in 70 degree weather with the windows down! Actually, I can almost always get straight into a car which has been sitting in the sun in 70 degree weather, because it does NOT get that hot inside. Children should NEVER be left alone in a car. If they are attended by adult siblings, or near adult (16 or up) siblings, and the windows are down and it is for a short time, I see NO reason why it shouldn’t be okay, especially if plenty of water is available. It is still not ideal, though.
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Now that kind of mall, I would not go to ever unless God made me. Eeewww. Again, not enough info. What kind of mall was it where the kids were alone? There are malls that are very very quiet, so quiet you wonder how they are still in existence. And very clean and very well stocked. And you don’t worry about somebody snagging your wallet or child.
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HannahLisa:
I live in DFW as well. Nice to meet you. Name’s Dan.Moved to Texas two years ago from Tennessee.
Where in DFW? I’m in Benbrook, just outside of Fort Worth.
Did you get some of the much-needed rain in your area?
And I would agree with you about the malls out here. That and I think we see 70 degree weather for like what? a day or two in December?
I teach and work construction in the summer, mostly painting. I also DJ – weddings, parties, live trivia, etc.
Anyhow. Hello to a fellow Texan.
Seen the new Jerry Jones temple by the way (New Cowboys stadium for those not familiar)? My goodness its massive, looks like a space ship landed in Arlington.
Happy trails.
Dan
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Ms. Lawyer, quite honestly, I don’t know how we prosecute really-minors. That’s beside the point. They left three little kids alone. That’s not a good thing to do, and they should get in trouble for it. I know, there may or may not be allowances in the law for such trespasses. I don’t care. They should get in trouble too.
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Though I do like the sign I saw recently in a store, “Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy.”
I LOVE THAT ! ! ! Kbells, you are worth twice your weight in gold !
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Hey Old Hickory,
I have swum and fished in Benbrook Lake. Have bought stuff in the stores on 377. And conducted a mini revival at ZBoaz Park. I have eaten at a picnic under the trees just east of the soccer fields. And have followed both 377 and 1187 out of town at times. I have a lot of fond memories from that area of the world.
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Op Teen,
I understand your feelings. The twelve year olds should be educated as to the consequences of actions.
I am not for locking them up and throwing away the key.
Twelve year olds can be responsible. I know that I was. In this case we don’t have enough information as to what actually happened as Mumsee has pointed out.
As a society we don’t need to always be paranoid. That is no way in which to grow good responsible children. We need to love our children and talk about things both pleasant and otherwise. At the level at which they can understand.
As I have said above I do not like the idea of dumping children at the mall or even at the library. That said I was responsible enough at 12 to have my own library card and to read in the library by myself. But my parents knew all of the librarians as did the librarians know me.
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New harem pants
….. Victoria 
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Mr. FisherWoof, a library isn’t exactly a place one goes to kidnap people. All you’d have to do is scream and half the place would be looking your way.
I’m not for locking them up either. But nobody is blaming them. That’s what bugs me; it’s their fault too.
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Good point, OT.
Responsibility is necessary, but “child protective services” has way too much power and can easily destroy a family by taking away kids from their parents if someone says the kids are being abused (and if it’s not true, it’s too late).
Another “helpful” government subsidiary (for lack of any better words that come to mind)…
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As I tell my kids, with responsibility comes responsibility. Yes, profound, I know.
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Thanks, Rio! So smart, and I bet you’re cute, too.
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