From youth group to agnosticism – Part 2
“Apologetics is not the silver bullet.” I would love to shout this sentence from the rooftops of Christian communities believing that young adults walk away from the church because they’re not able to defend the faith. This is another “spirituality as theological acumen” fallacy. I know many young adults who were grounded in Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til at a Christian school still walked away in college. As we continue our conversation about evangelical youth becoming agnostic (see Part 1 here) my friend and I have uncovered a few more interesting points of tension:
(1) Christianity as a religion of “don’ts”: Being more holy than Jesus seems to be a recipe for creating resentment against what Bible teaches by focusing on what Christians avoid. As Mark Driscoll points out, trying to be more holy than Jesus is sinful. Teaching a Christianity of avoidance rather than one of discernment becomes legalistic, pharisaical, and poisonous to the heart. The Bible naturally tells us to avoid things but some communities reduce Christianity to “good Christians don’t do this or that.”
(2) Unrepentant arrogance: We have discovered that when kids grow up listening to adults constantly criticize others, focus on the problems in the church, point fingers at everyone else’s lack of orthodoxy, and develop a posture of “we’re right and everyone else is wrong,” and so on, it sets the trap to misconstrue Christianity as a faith of self-righteous defensiveness instead of humility and grace.
(3) Bible abuse: This happens when adults take Bible verses out of context to guilt manipulate kids into behavior modification. For example, misusing Bible verses to keep kids from wearing T-shirts promoting secular bands but saying nothing about shirts displaying “Ralph Lauren,” or “American Eagle.” The Bible becomes a twisted rulebook codifying cultural preferences. Or even worse, adults using the Bible to punish kids for disobedience. When a boy will not sit still in Sunday school, is it really a good idea have him write Hebrews 13:17 50 times? What do we teach about God’s word when it’s used as a means of punishing?
(4) Criticizing “culture” and not living differently from it: The confusing hypocrisy of constantly berating “culture” for its empty values while being just as materialistic, success-oriented, and safety-driven as many non-Christians. For example, it is particularly difficult to distinguish many Christians from their non-Christian neighbors in possessions, values, and lifestyle after 1 p.m. on Sundays.
(5) Faith without struggle: We also discovered profound disillusionment when kids grow up around adults who never reveal their own struggles with sin and brokenness. If sin and brokenness are true, why does cowardice trump authenticity? For example, I know of boys who never hear about real struggles of being a man from their fathers or other men. As a result, Christianity is seen as contrived, fake, sugarcoated, and incapable of addressing the real challenges of life with the truth about the lives of adults exposed.
(6) Political Christianity: There is not a single verse in the Bible that locks Christians into blanket support of a single secular political party. Christians can be in the Libertarian, Constitution, Democratic, Green, and so on, for various reasons. Hopefully, Christians are “salt and light” in all parties where possible.
There is much more to be said, but this brief unnuanced list is the beginning of a conversation that many of us are having regarding the consequences of adults digging spiritual wells for children instead of teaching kids how to dig deeply themselves. When the church’s kids mature, those shallow, spoon-fed, moralistic, legalistic wells eventually run dry and young adults walk away. Roughly 3,500 churches die and close each year in America. We must act.














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back to top63 Comments to “From youth group to agnosticism – Part 2”
Where is the biblical support for the idea that a youth group would produce godliness?
When God goes looking for the ones truly responsible for children’s turning away from Him, the list is short.
DAD
MOM
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It seems to me, the kids are not making the relationship their own. God has not become their personal God. None of the other stuff matters if that does not happen. Is God waking them from the dead?
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Reg, I believe I said this on the last thread.
There is no Biblical support for youth group. However, if a group gets together for the purpose of glorifying God, and it happens to be aimed toward teens, and they use the Bible as a foundation for growth, then of course it’s going to result in godliness!
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So, whatever we say the result should be makes it be??
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Reg,
There is no biblical support for: riding in a car, riding in an airplane, living in a home with electricity or running water, using an indoor bathroom, eating chocolate chip cookies, going to a library, mowing the lawn, riding a bike, or using a computer. But some of us do those things and God produces godliness in us sometimes even using those very things.
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Yeah! What she said!
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Wow, I’m feeling discouraged already, just from reading the list.
Mumsee, as usual, is correct–a personal relationship of their own is the only answer. So we introduce our children to the God whom we love–in church, out of church, through the darkness, in the fears, during triumphs, in spite of difficulties and with joy–and trust they’ll love our God, too.
Good insights, Anthony.
I just wish raising kids were easy–follow the recipe, train them up right and bingo! perfect people.
But life isn’t like that, and that’s part of why Jesus came–to free us from sin and give us life in abundance. “In the world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world.”
Thanks be to God!
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There may not be a single Bible verse that locks christians into support of a single political Party… but there is one that prohibits christians from supporting the Democrats and the Greens – ‘You shall not murder’ (Both the Dems and Greens support mass murder of children). To support either of these Parties would be rank hypocrisy in the eyes of discerning and caring children.
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Teaching a Christianity of avoidance rather than one of discernment becomes legalistic, pharisaical, and poisonous to the heart.
Something that amazes me about the Black church in the South is the easy co-existence of legalistic sermons with all manner of behavior in the pews — and pulpit. Depending on your point of view, this is either blatant hypocrisy or subtle wisdom. One of the black preachers in town recently lost his pulpit after the newspaper reported that he was arrested for soliciting a policewoman for prostitution. This may be a marker of some kind of line in the sand, but I think it was unusual, and inconsistent with usual practice. The fact is, Black Christians (in my town) talk about avoiding “the world” while they commonly engage in non-paternity and side relationships, co-habitation, homosexuality, and drugs.
I attended a neighbor’s funeral some time ago in a Black church. The departed’s homosexual son comforted his weeping mother in the front row, a few feet from the open casket. She was not technically a widow, because the departed had remained married to somone else for years while living with her and having three children with her, The accounting for the “survivors” in the funeral program was matter-of-fact. Standing over the mourners, the preacher used the funeral sermon to denounce homosexuality. This seemed outrageous to me, coming from a man who brags about what a “devil” he used to be when he was “out in the world.” (The good Rev. spares no detail in reliving those days, to roars of laughter in the pews.) So I asked people afterwards if they thought the preacher was wrong. They did, yet they shrugged it off. Life is a car crash that we all watch in slow motion. We can’t stop it, or get out of the way, much less prevent it with traffic regulations, traffic lights, and white lines on the asphalt. Then, I realized that the preacher’s denunciation of homosexuality may have been a feeble attempt at kindness and forgiveness, because it misdirected attention away from the sins of the dear departed. The purpose of the church is to offer a little bit of kindness after the fatalities, and to express the improbable hope for a better world to come.
I still think this preacher is something of a clown, but successful, theologically trained, white Evangelicals have something to learn from the tolerance of the Black church.
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It isn’t just our black brothers and sisters who have trouble with hypocrisy.
And being tolerant shouldn’t give one an excuse for sin.
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Wow, Scroop Moth…
I have to sit here and wonder what this thread would look like if, say, I, had *dared* to post anything like that.
I’d never hear the end of it, would I? I can only imagine the cries of “Racist!!!!!” and “How dare you imply that Black people are hypocritical!”
But what really dumbfounds me is that after all this, you actually sit there and say that all Christians should learn from this “example” of “tolerance.”
Again, I can only imagine what life would be like if we did. You’d certainly never let us forget it. Heck, you already don’t, even with the small number of Christians (taken from no particular ethnic group, thank you very much) who actually act this way.
And you actually dare to call Christians hypocritical?
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“Apologetics is not the silver bullet.”
And why not? Because evangelical belief is irrational, and there is no logical defense of it. Much better to brainwash youth into an emotional dependence on a community of believers and an imaginary friend. Easier to keep them that way.
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#5 And don’t forget – there is absolutely NO biblical support for posting on a blog.
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NOPE it’s the individual who turns from CHRIST, that’s the one who will be held accountable for THEIR sins before GOD Almighty – when I listen to kids, adults or anyone, who pins all their sin on dad and mom, I know I’m listening to a BLAME GAMER – their story is always the same, “its not my fault” –
Self responsibility isn’t thought of today, even some churches will counsel people and tell them its all their parents fault, or their spouse, …… we have to take responsibility for our own sins, our lives and who we follow, it’s no ones fault but ours if we take that wide path.
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I agree, too often people want to gloss over the fact there are parties who side with abortion.
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Anthony –
I’ve enjoyed some of your latest posts, however this one isn’t really up to speed.
I’m a mother, I know many other mothers – my mom nor I, or anyone I know would have made any child write a verse 50 times for any reason.
Isn’t your number 2 – “(2) Unrepentant arrogance:” something you might see as a mirrored image of __________. – you seem to be on a roll regarding all the negatives you can dream up, is there anything right that parents are doing – Are you a parent?
How are you acting out this long list of accusations against parents? -
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“Apologetics is not the silver bullet.”
Hmmm… I’m not so sure… The problem I’ve seen is that churches are so intent on bringing in new people and running fun Sunday School that they end up teaching no apologetics whatsoever. The kids grow up, and, if they’re lucky, remember it as a fun day care program. I would argue that more theology and apologetics should be taught. If you don’t know what you believe, and can’t defend it, then the first reasonable-sounding argument against Christianity you run into in life will shatter your faith.
I’ve heard it said that you don’t really understand something until you have to teach it. I think that this might be applied to religion as well: you don’t really understand what you believe until you have to defend it.
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Some of this may be due to the Sunday school curriculum out there. My husband spent quite a bit of time examining the most popular, and many were “no Lordship”–didn’t emphasize Jesus was Lord. We rejected it and returned to the simple curriculum produced by Concordia Publishing House, but some of the major ones preach a Jesus gentle and mild.
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Mr. Spinoza:
Greetings sir. I’ve posted in part one in response to your comments of recent.
I thought I’d take a moment to perhaps ask you about your comment in here about evangelicalism being “irrational”.
Is it ok to ask you what you perceive to be “rational”? What is your standard against which you measure our beliefs?
And in regard to your remark on brainwashing. Since there are many cerebral detergents in the marketplace of ideas nowadays, how does one know which to avoid and which to use? How do you know that the cleansing agent by which you’ve scrubbed your noggin with was the right one?
Which would you recommend to a person visiting the detergent isle in the marketplace of ideas for the first time?
And about theology of blogging, I would tend to agree with you there, save perhaps that as 1 Corinthians 10:31 says, we should do all to the glory of God. So, blogging for Jesus, while not perhaps the “best” means of communication, is nonetheless useful for conveying one’s thoughts and beliefs, prayer requests and various and sundry ad homs and non sequetirs.
Toodles for now.
Dan
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But to this article here.
Let me endanger myself by oversimplifying the whole matter perhaps (of people walking away from the faith, that is, of any age or demographic or race or socioeconomic status).
Mark 4 and the parable of the sower. Some seeds will do this, even in the best or worst of circumstances. What Mr. Bradley says here are good points of course and are issues to be sure, but they’re the fruit of something deeper.
There’s a great book out there about folks giving up their faith. It’s called Walking Away from Faith, Unraveling the Mystery of Belief and Unbelief by Ruth A. Tucker.
I didn’t see Mark 4 on the list Mr. Bradley has been compliling. And no, of course its not apologetics or lack thereof that’s “the” issue. But neither is it really any of those other things; things which perhaps are merely fruit of a much more foundational level issue of simply having unconverted churchgoers in the congregations. I’ve often thought I might be one. It’s frightened me to some degree, especially being a teacher.
The 1st Great Awakening struggled with the issue of uncoverted pastors and churchgoers.
It will continue to be an issue until Jesus returns, I’m sure. It’s nothing new. It’s tragic, certainly, and very sad, but its not a novel sort of thing.
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Yes, Victoria. Defend away.
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Fatigue or not!
Dan
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Whatever!
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Is that a dismissive, hateful “Whatever!” or a funny-ha-ha-it’s-we’re-good “Whatever!”?
Unfortuneatly the facial expressions, vocal timbre and body language are unavailable for me to determine where I stand with you. I’m trying to be personable, forgiving and willing to “be friends” here. Really.
Help me out with determining what you mean by “Whatever!”
Dan
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“I’m a mother, I know many other mothers – my mom nor I, or anyone I know would have made any child write a verse 50 times for any reason.”
Umm…heh, heh….
When I was young, stubborn, and disobediant, my parents found that the only way to get me to remember to have self-control was to write out the fruits of the Spirit.
Is writing out verses repeatedly a good or bad punishment? Eh. Depends on the kid, I guess. It did me good.
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Had to put your foot into it, didn’t you , OT?
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Writing out Scripture shouldn’t be a punishment – GOD’s Word needs to be in our hearts, not 50 plus times on a piece of paper.
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Scripture is a wonderful source of comfort and of basis for action.
I was never punished by copying verses. however over the years I have written several verses several times.
#29 Victoria, you are absolutely correct. God’’s word needs to be in our heart , our mind, and our spirit. It is a support and shield. It is the water which brings forth fruit in the desert.
And it is only 66 books long! Books which tell us more each time we read them.
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Joshua 24:15
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
truly a beautiful verse. It behooves every leader of a family to take a good hard look at themselves. To look at their own Christian walk. And to show the way for the rest of the family and employees. A prayerful and dutiful life. Where you practice and preach and practice what you preach. Where you avoid the items in Anthony’s list but instead live life abundantly in Jesus and give God the glory.
If a parent has a shallow walk then how shall the children know the depths?
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#3 Op Teen,
Biblical support for youth group.
Joel 1:3 Tell it to your children, and let your children tell it to their children, and their children to the next generation.
Mark 7:27″First let the children eat all they want,”
Remember Joseph served in Pharaoh’s courts.
In the old testament you read about the Children of Israel did this. The children of Israel did that. You start to wonder if the adults did anything!
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#9 Scroop Moth,,
Life is a car crash that we all watch in slow motion
What a sad life you lead! ! ! I rarely respond to your posts SM because of how sad and twisted your posts usually are. But I can’t help but weep for you here.
Some people look out and see the rain. Others look for the rainbow. Your words seem to indicate that you are stuck in the tar pits!
And it seems like you are surprised with others when they don’t agree with you that everyone should be in the tar pits. I pray that the love of Christ be manifest in you and that you be raised out of the tar pits into the light of day.
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#8 Joy
You are absolutely correct!
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MFW, 32, is that a tongue-in-cheek “support” for youth group, considering that Joel 1:3 is to parents? (I know the rest of it is tongue-in-cheek, but I wasn’t sure about that first part.)
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#21 OldHickory,
parables are extremely fascinating. This one particularly so!
1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3“Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times.”
9Then Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Verse 9 is the kicker!
Parables have a lot of meat to them for those who can taste it!
What to do what to do? Sew more seeds ! Build proper scarecrows ! (show how to defeat the arguments of the devil) Add more soil! (Comfort and lead , don’t assume that new Christians have much depth. Maturity comes with time and knowledge as well as with example and explanations!) Clear out the Thorns! Preach against the thorns! Don’t let the thorns show up in your own life. (kick immoral people out of government positions!) Create an atmosphere of good soil. For with good soil you will see tremendous harvest!
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Victoria, for certain kids (like me, at the tender age of 8), Scripture needs to penetrate the mind before it can make its way to the heart.
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Mr. Bradley,
I’d like to thank you for these very important posts on youth. I have enjoyed both of them very much, and no doubt they’ve struck a deep, resonating cord in my fellow Christians.
Your points about Bible abuse and political Christianity are very accurate. I have heard youth point to those very things as stumbling blocks. Sometimes it is because of real ignorance combined with arrogance on the part of the Christian that young ones are driven away.
We should be mindful how we use the scriptures, and mindful of our attitude when we wield their power. For Jesus clearly stated: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:16
We will certainly answer for our carelessness if we drive them away with our arrogance and self-willed opinions. And that speaks to political Christianity. Christianity is not the property of any political party, and I believe that all of our parties contain real Christians, because I know some of them. Those who believe otherwise are certainly entitled to their opinion. But we are all to be mindful that we do not substitute our own opinions for truth, for this is just the sort of thing that drives youth away, because they see right through it.
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Cheryl,
yes it is mostly tongue in cheek. For the bible is a source of joy as well as a manual for life. Jesus himself made a pun (or so it seems) when he said of peter, on this rock will I build my church! But even if it were a pun there is a lot that can be gained.
Life is to be enjoyed! God wants us to live life abundantly! Life without God though is greatly shallow.
Children are a special joy. They are a source of great things.
They need good soil, as do we all.
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Is there biblical support for housework????????
Well there is one verse….. Jesus swept ??
.
.
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TJSCAT — What I was trying to say is that Black Christians declare all the same mores as y’all do, but have a sane appreciation for the fact that rules don’t prevent disaster, frankly accept their own frailty, and hope for a better world to come. I can understand why you’re driven to call that hypocrisy (as I did), but one could argue that it’s different, because Black Christians waging a culture war, and they don’t make fancy excuses about progressive sanctification (or whatever) and they plead guilty to the inevitable slippage between norms and practice.
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For Jesus clearly stated: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matt. 18:16 (should be Matt 18 :6)
Certainly a very clear argument against abortion!
The next verse 18:7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! is a certain condemnation of the Democratic party !
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#41 Again back to racism. Black Christians , Yellow Christians, Red Christians and White Christians all face life every day. We all shall be judged by Jesus. On a case by case basis, not a race by race basis.
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Mr. FisherWoof: [on Matt. 18:6] “Certainly a very clear argument against abortion!”
Umm…no, that’s out of context. The NIV version says, “anyone who causes one of these little ones…to sin” rather than “offend one of these little ones”. Means the same thing, but you used it the wrong way.
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Scroop: So, you’re saying that these particular Christians have an excuse for hypocrisy, because they’re honest about it? Correct me if I’m wrong.
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You’re a sharp whip, OT.
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Exactly right, OT. No pretenses. That goes a long way towards reducing the charge of hypocrisy down to simple inconsistency. Plus, while believing the same things you do, Black Christians didn’t start a culture war over absolute morality. They don’t write books against relativism and secular humanism.
There’s another lesson to be learned from the experience of poor Blacks. You won’t like it any better. In my observations, the most moralistic and judgmental denunciations of misbehavior to be heard anywhere in America are continuously uttered in the worst sections of the worst housing projects. Whatever you think of the people who live there, you cannot explain their dysfunction on false “messages.”
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Op Teen,
You are correct. The passage does indeed refer to causing people to sin. And yes I used it in a non traditional sense. And you have made me happy that you have seen that and pointed it out.
It also points out that it is best to go back to the original Greek to find the real meanings.
In my defense I was cutting and pasting what 30 pieces of silver posted, which is from the King James. The 30 pieces of silver used it to imply that it meant to drive away by giving offense. Which is also not the traditional interpretation. Although by a stretch it could mean that. I stretched it in a slightly different direction. As killing (abortion) is definitely something that offends the little ones.
My defense is a thin one though and I ask you to forgive my tongue in cheek on this one.
Of the English translations that I have only the Darby expresses it in the way that the King James does. Others correctly say “to sin” some say “to stumble”
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#47 Scroop Moth,
You cannot be accused of looking at the world through rose colored glasses. But color does affect your view of the world.
Consider the implications of the following words : “Lamentations” and “Voices in the whirlwinds”.
They don’t write books against relativism and secular humanism. Yes ‘they’ do.
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Scroop Moth: admission of faults is fine: it’s the first step.
But one must actually be repentant.
It still remains that the behavior you describe is most definitely condemned by the Bible, and Christians should not be involved in any of that. One cannot claim to be a Christian and then turn around and solicit a policewoman for prostitution, or remain married to one woman while living with, and having three kids with, another. If they were actually repentant, and ceased this behavior, that would simply be an example of the fallacy of humans, but you gave no indication that this was the case.
Instead, you seem to have stated that all Christians should behave like this, because we’re sinners anyway, so what’s the point of being repentant?
Furthermore, perhaps because I do believe this sort of behavior is absolutely wrong, I found your assertion that this is especially predominant in the Black church to be rather repugnant and racist. The sad fact of the matter is that all Christians, all people, can be hypocritical and fall away.
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. . . you seem to have stated that all Christians should behave like this . .
That’s false. Check again, and please correct this misstatement.
I suspect you’re just nervous in the absence of moral denunciations.
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TJSCATLOVER,
You say (post 50), “Furthermore, perhaps because I do believe this sort of behavior is absolutely wrong, I found your assertion that this is especially predominant in the Black church to be rather repugnant and racist.” Why? It doesn’t follow that since these are sins, it’s racist to say they’re more prevalent in the black community. In fact, most of them generally are more prevalent in the black community; that’s simple truth, not racism. (I’m not arguing one way or another whether Scroop Moth is racist, but this statement doesn’t follow. And I personally, as one who was an “insider” in Chicago’s inner city for seven years and saw the devastation in its children, despise the idea that we’re being more loving if we pretend that “the black community” isn’t dysfunctional. It is. The reason white people react differently to a group of rowdy black teenagers than to white teens acting the same way is that the black teens are far more dangerous, statistically. That’s reality; a group of rowdy white teen boys in the city probably won’t have guns on them, a group of rowdy black teens possibly will.)
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I have to hand it to you Cheryl – you are right on this one. It takes a great deal of backbone to post what you’ve just posted in #52-
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Ok, Cheryl. I’ll bow to your experience, as I admit that I have none here.
I still think he could have said it better, if it was not his intent to make judgments about Black Christians. Plus, as I originally posted, imagine the uproar if someone professing to be Christian posted something like that.
Scroop Moth: You posted, and I quote, “…theologically trained, white Evangelicals have something to learn from the tolerance of the Black church.” Forgive me for interpreting that to mean… exactly what it says.
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CAT#54- Look up behavior and tolerance in the dictionary. They ain’t synonyms.
White Evangelicals have something to learn about tolerance, exactly. You are mistaken in saying I “. . . stated that all Christians should behave like this . . .” In fact, I called the behavior “dysfunction” #47. That isn’t a recommendation. What I advocated was an attitude — tolerance. That’s not “exactly” the same, as you claim. It’s dishonest of you to persist in twisting my words after I corrected your error.
If I treated anyone else’s comments like you did, I’d expect to be corrected, and would acknowledge.
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#26 That explains so much!
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Which is why, Scroop Moth, I originally put “tolerance” in quotation marks. Plus, *you’re* now misquoting *me.*
What I stated is that you *seem* to have said that Christians could learn from the Black Church’s behavior. As in, that was the implication, not the statement.
Yes, what you actually posted was that Christians should learn from the “tolerance of the black Church.” Well, this begs the question: what is this so-called “tolerance” that the Black Church supposedly has?
The answer that you provide in your original post: “The fact is, Black Christians (in my town) talk about avoiding “the world” while they commonly engage in non-paternity and side relationships, co-habitation, homosexuality, and drugs.”
That would be what my old English teacher would call a “thesis statement.” This is, as I see it, the main point of your post, and the rest is supporting arguments and conclusion. (Which in turn would be that bit about Christians needing to follow the Black Church’s example.)
What you focused on in the post was behavior. The thesis was about behavior. The only (flimsy) excuse for bringing up tolerance in the conclusion would be that the Black Church is tolerant… *of this behavior.* Thus, your use of the word “tolerance” is in reference to the practice amongst Christians of behavior you describe, and you are indeed implying that Christianity at large should allow such behavior to continue unopposed amongst Christians. Otherwise, your conclusion would be completely unrelated to your post, and the two (now unrelated) parts would be respectively pointless and baseless.
If you would like to change your tune later, and say that that is not at all what you meant to imply, or that that wasn’t meant to be your thesis, then you certainly can. I have no way to disprove you. But you don’t get to claim that I’m “twisting” your words, if it was you that goofed up and implied something you shouldn’t have, or used the wrong thesis.
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Scroop and the black Christians he describes may be on the right track:
Luke 18:9-14
Those of you who insist one must stop all sinning in order to be forgiven had better be exacting in your examination of your own lives; because you’re dangerously close to arguing salvation by works, not grace.
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Salvation is by grace alone, not works. But I agree with Michelle’s point earlier about the importance of knowing and teaching that Christ cannot be one’s savior without also being one’s Lord.
If one is saved, Christ is both to the believer. We continually strive to put to death the sin that remains in us. But we know that will never be a finished work in this life.
Anthony also mentioned the religion of “don’ts,” of our desire to somehow be “holier” than Jesus. Our pastor tells a humorous story of being rejected for enrollment at a particular seminary because he answered a question about whether he drinks wine with a ‘yes.’ Jesus did, after all.
As for politics, I agree that abortion is one of those ‘lines-in-the-sand’ issues. What a horror to see something like that become so acceptable in a so-called civilized society. It is the primary reason I felt compelled to resign from the Democrat party some 15-20 years ago.
However ….. I also know pro-life Democrats and genuine Christians who remain in the Democrat fold and are working within the party for change (and obviously there are many Independent/decline-to-state Christians as well). Blessings on them all.
But mostly, for young people to embrace Christ, Christ must first call and embrace them. If they are raised in the faith, I think parents have good reason to lean on Christ’s faithfulness to complete that work in their offspring.
But it is, after all, his work and his alone. We can’t “make” someone a believer. Only God can do that. And in his hands we must ultimately leave it.
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Christian conversion is fundamentally a work of God. So I hesitate to blame parents or the church for kids who don’t take on their parent’s faith. On the other hand parents and churches are not without shortcomings.
There is a natural tendency for children to push away and rebel from their parent’s faith. It is a good thing actually, as they spread their wings and begin to make their lives their own. If they were taught to love the truth, then they will find the truth, even if they reject certain religious rituals and programs. If they were merely forced to “go to church” then they may have little to hang on to out in the world.
Two things are most important about the Christian faith, especially to kids setting out on their own: it is true and it is relevant.
Christianity is not about sitting in a pew, going through the same program once a week. It isn’t confined to the walls of a church building. Isaac Newton viewed the universe like a boy playing on a seashore turning over a pebble here and there while the whole ocean of truth lay before him. Even so-called atheists feel this wonder. Rom 1:20 says that God has appeared to all men so that they are without excuse. Have our children lost their child-like wonder about God?
Christianity addresses the big questions about life and death and afterlife. Are 20 year olds asking the big questions? You bet they are. Are churches addressing their questions? You decide.
Churches so easily become comfortable and petty, avoiding the hard questions. How many teens enjoy ice cream socials and bean suppers? If the Bible is true (and it is), then it is profound. How many parents are strong in their faith? it requires exercising one’s faith. How many have the joy of faith, or has it become a chore?
Paul’s attitude was that truth is more important than religion. (1 Cor 1:1-15) If it isn’t true, our faith is vain. And if we don’t live it, our faith is in vain. (James 1:26, 2:17; 1 John 3:18). There are many things that the Church focuses on (as Anthony pointed out), such as politics which have nothing to do with faith (other than being good citizens).
Jesus taught Grace and Truth. That is where churches need to focus. Churches should be equipping the saints to stand on their own and to stay focused on what is important in the midst of a corrupt and vain world.
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Why thank you, Mr. OfSilver.
Mr. FisherWoof: No worries!
Spinoza: Would you care to elaborate?
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I’m with OT. Writing verses is a great way to help you learn them, whether by punishment or not. Writing it 50 times will seem like punishment to a kid anyway.
But writing something down even once, goes along way to memorizing and learning.
I also think that for most Gen Y’ers, college is a prime test of whether their faith was legit to begin with. It’s easy to be the “christian kid” leading youth groups, in such a protected environment.
My youth group experience did not fall prey to most of Mr. Anthony’s list. It preached Christ as the center focus. We had parental testimonies with those who had been drug addicts, fornicators, etc. Elders and other parents and other church memebers would sit in, help and mentor. However, despite that, you still had kids coming through it that did not follow Christ afterwards, and many who did not follow Christ while there.
I dont know that we actually had anyone who was a “leader” though that fell away later. However, many had had communicates class, professed at some point, but were obviously and outspokenly opposed to Christ even while in youth group, and were only there at their parents requirement.
Especially the group after mine, and why that was, I dont know. The overall noticeable theme was their parents, but then again, we might have just judged that based on their kids.
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Really good church men and women will tell you up front that their mission is to SUPPORT AND REINFORCE what young folks learn at home. If we as Christians have bought into this myth of “Oh, the church youth pastor and staff will teach them all they need to know to embrace a Christian life and worldview”, then shame on us all!!
So what we need then is better educated parents. Kids should always direct their God and Bible questions to us parents. If we are stymied we could then say “Well, perhaps we can go talk with Bro Smith at church and see how he understands XYZ topic.”
But again, it gets back to the hymn I learned where the lyrics say “God give us Christian homes”. The moral/spiritual upbringing of sons and daughters simply cannot be subcontracted out to camp counselors, youth ministry team etc.
Mom and Dad, you more than anyone make sure the Gospel is caught not taught.
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