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Christians fasting for Ramadan
Some Christians, USA Today reports, are fasting alongside Muslims during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. One of the more prominent ones is emergent church leader Brian McLaren, who recently wrote on his blog:
“We are not doing so in order to become Muslims: we are deeply committed Christians. But as Christians, we want to come close to our Muslim neighbors and to share this important part of life with them.”
McLaren went on to write that the goal was to join Muslims in an observance of “a God-honoring expression of peace, fellowship and neighborliness.”
Albert Mohler, the president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, believes the activity demonstrates far more than that:
“The logic of Islam is obedience and submission. It’s by following these practices that a Muslim demonstrates his obedience to the rule of the law through the Quran. For a Christian to do the same automatically implies a submission to the same rule. And beyond that, it’s an explicit affirmation that this is a good and holy thing. From a New Testament perspective, it is not a good and holy thing.”
Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, says it is OK to have friendships with people of other faiths, but this type of involvement in each other’s worship practices is problematic, mainly because Christians and Muslim fast for different reasons and do not worship the same God. He called Christians observing a Ramadan fast . . .
“insane at best … Sad, tragic, horrific, misguided, dangerous, wrong. If Christians want to pray during Ramadan, they should pray not with Muslims but for Muslims — that Muslims would come to know Jesus. To pray with Muslims absolutely dishonors Jesus.”
For Christians, is this a healthy way to break down religious barriers and prejudice, or is it a dangerous compromising of your faith?
back to top103 Comments to “Christians fasting for Ramadan”
Has Brian been entertaining the potential for a secretive conversational dialogue with a female Endorian?
“And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.” (1Sa 28:5)
Let’s hope not.
Yikes!
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I’m actually surprised to see that it wasn’t Saddleback Pastor Rick Warren who decided to fast with muslims. He seemed at best to be the sort who would cavort. As a huge fan of Albert Mohler’s teachings, I also agree 100% with him. Islam is so diametrically opposed to Christianity, it’s like equating the darkness (Islam)
to the Light (Christ). The act of fasting is something people do to spend more time seeking God’s face than having a lunch. Since only christianity worships the true God, I would doubt any muslim could appease their dead god.
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#2 Justus331
The dig about Rick Warren was not justified. Albert Mohler is from the same denomination, Southern Baptist, as Warren. Their teachings might not be much different.
I keep looking for what is so bad about Warren but haven’t been able to find much. What do you know that I don’t? Please let me know.
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Mickey, you need a question mark at the end.
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I don’t believe Muslims worship the same God that I do, so if I were to fast with them, it would seem to me that I would be violating the commandment to worship no other gods. I don’t participate in Hindu ceremonies to get closer to them either.
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It doesn’t affect religious barriers in any way. When my Jewish colleague had lunch with us at work, I ate pork just the same. He did his thing, I did mine. The difference doesn’t make a difference. If I prayed in either a mosque or synagogue, I would pray in Jesus’s name. Because that’s the way I pray.
A Christian fasting during Ramadan doesn’t do any harm. It also doesn’t do any good.
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Fasting sucks, but I’d drink a beer with anyone from any religion or tribe, and that definitely includes the Endorians. Kardassians and Orcs, not so much…
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A good way to handle this would be to agree to fast with any Muslim who agrees to attend church with you.
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Kyle, I used to have that philosophy when I was young and Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses came by. My philosophy was “I’ll listen to anyone who will listen to me.” We had some interesting discussions, but no one coverted anyone else. So, I politely send them on their way now.
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McLaren has never read the Bible OR he doesn’t comprehend what it says when he does read it. Jesus says something far different than McLaren.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:28
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I know who the Endorians and the Kardassians are, but who are the Orcs?
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He is an existentialist … nothing he does or says should surprise. He is the product of a culture that has worshiped the feeling of religion rather than the God of religion.
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Luke 17 (NIV) Jesus said to his disciples;
“Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”
Victoria, I don’t know anything about Brian McLaren except what you and Mickey just said. But if that reflects his teaching, I fear for him.
NJL, Orcs are the creatures in the Lord of the Rings trilogy who were once Elves, but were captured, or otherwise come under the dominion of the Dark Lord.
Now, who are the Endorians and Dardassians?
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Isn’t one of the basic principles of fasting not to draw attention to yourself?
Mt. 6.16-18
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I don’t know much about McLaren, but I did just get back from Egypt and what I think about this is based on that. I was there for the beginning of Ramadan. The Muslim religion is a beautiful attempt at pleasing Allah by law keeping. The American stereotype of the terrorist–and I understand why we do that–is not any truer than Ann Coulter representing Evangelical Christianity. Islam, Judaism, and much of Christianity is the attempt to earn God’s favor through good works.
My time in Egypt was spent with the fastest growing church in the Arab world. They do not fast with their Muslim country men as a congregation, but they do hold all night prayer meetings for them. They cannot preach publically so they pray–especially during Ramadan–for God to send visions and dreams to Muslims to see Christ. They have Muslims almost daily knocking on their door because they don’t know where else to go and they have seen Jesus. I have met some of them and heard firsthand; it is better than the Egyptian Christians just telling me their stories. This church doesn’t fast per se during Ramadan, but many choose to. They do not eat in front of their countrymen during Ramadan. Nor do they ever put their Bibles on the floor or set a cup of coffee on it. Not because the physical Book is sacred, but because a good Muslim reveres the Qu’ran and to abase the Bible in that way is offensive too them.
Paul became all things to all men that me might save some. By their fruit you will know them.
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To those who say that Muslims don’t worship the same God as we Christians, my question is this: How many Gods are there?
If like me you think there is one God, then they are worshipping the same God. Now, granted, I believe they have a profound misunderstanding of God, but it’s God nonetheless.
By the way, I don’t take credit for this line of reasoning – it’s lifted from Fr. Neuhaus.
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Thanks, Adios, for that interesting comment.
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I’m not sure we can really say that the Muslims don’t worship the same God that we do. On a purely semantic basis, this is true, because we know that only one god ACTUALLY EXISTS, and that is the triune godhead of whom Christ is a part. Given that the Muslims don’t recognize the divinity of Jesus, we can say that they’re not worshiping the “same” godhead.
But if we can agree that the thing they worship is essentially non-existent, akin to the tooth fairy or a Leprachuan, the question becomes “Who do they THINK they are worshiping?” And if you were to ask them if they worship Yahweh, Jehovah, etc, I think they would say yes, but the Arabic word for him is just “Allah”, the same way the Japanese word is “Kami-sama” or the French word is “Deu”.
I also believe I’ve heard that Arabic speaking Christians use “Allah” when speaking of Yahweh. Is that not correct?
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MWT,
But are they worshiping God? There is indeed only one true God, but that doesn’t mean that if I think I’m worshiping my belly button I’m really worshiping God. No, I’m worshiping something that is not God, worshiping an idol.
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ADIOS
That’s fascinating. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
OH
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Cheryl,
Are Jews worshipping an idol or false God? After all, they reject (most) of our understanding of God.
MWT
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MWT
Not intending to oversimplify your question, I’d start with 1 John 2.22-23
“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son has not the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
No Jesus, no Father. What’s left?
Idolatry I’d suspect.
Just a thought. Didn’t know where you were going with the question. Don’t want to be intrusive or any such thing.
OH
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Why would any real Believer in Jesus Christ as Savior of the world, think there is any reason to save other religions? God Almighty isn’t a religion HE is GOD, HIS Son is the Savior ——– why would McLaren see the need to save other religions? – was this his purpose in celebrating Ramadan? – to save Islam?
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Anything for a little publicity, Mr. McLaren?
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From Fr. Neuhaus in the Feb. 2004 issue of First Things:
“Islam is a religion of peace,” President Bush has said on several occasions. One fervently wishes there were more evidence to support that assertion, but I understand that there are compelling reasons for Bush to avoid any suggestion that the war on terrorism is, at bottom, a religious war between Christianity and Islam. Then, at a news conference during the state visit to Britain, a reporter asked whether “Muslims worship the same Almighty.” Bush replied, “I do say that freedom is the Almighty’s gift to every person. I also condition it by saying freedom is not America’s gift to the world. It’s much greater than that, of course.” Then there was a definite pause, as though he knew he might get in trouble for saying, “And I believe we worship the same God.” That did ruffle some Christian feathers in this country. An official of the Southern Baptist Convention said Bush “is simply mistaken.” He added, “We should always remember that he is commander in chief, not theologian in chief. The Bible is clear on this: the one and true God is Jehovah, and his only begotten Son is Jesus Christ.” The president of the National Association of Evangelicals issued a statement: “The Chris-tian God encourages freedom, love, forgiveness, prosperity, and health. The Muslim god appears to value the opposite. The personalities of each god are evident in the cultures, civilizations, and dispositions of the people that serve them. Muhammad’s central message was submission; Jesus’ central message was love. They seem to be very different personalities.” If I understand our separated brethren, we got a competition between gods going here, with our God (upper case) being much nicer than their god, as revealed, so to speak, in the superior niceness of those of us who serve Him. Of course this is theological nonsense. It would seem to suggest a kind of polytheism. Christians confess that there is one God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jews worship the one God whom Jesus called Father and taught us to worship, although Jews do not recognize that the God whom we both worship has revealed himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Muslims worship the same God (although calling him Allah, as do Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians), believing that His definitive revelation was given through Muhammad. So also St. Paul preaching in the Areopagus: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth.” The dispute between Jews, Muslims, and Christians is not over whether they worship the same God, but over how the one God is rightly understood and worshiped. It is true that Bush is commander in chief, not theologian in chief, but on this question he is a better theologian than some of his evangelical critics.
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Another gem from McLaren
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In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate
[Quran_chapter 112]
1] SAY: “He is the One God:
2] God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
3]”He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
4]”and there is nothing that could be compared with Him
[Quran_chapter 23-90,92]
1] We have sent them the Truth: but they indeed practise falsehood!
2]No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
3]He knows what is hidden and what is open: too high is He for the partners they attribute to Him!
[Quran_chapter 2-255]
“ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious”
Without describing how Allah (swt) looks or giving him human form we can still know a lot about him.
Allah (swt) has at least 99 names or attributes.
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-’Awwal meaning
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
Allah (swt) is also known as Al-’Akhir meaning
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
Allah (swt) is also known as Az-Zaahir meaning
The Manifest, The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without a place. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributes of bodies.
[Quran_chapter 4-171]
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
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My first reaction is revulsion. Then I think, “What would Jesus do?”
Jesus was a friend of sinners. I have Muslims friends. Would I take part in their customs? I probably would. Why? Because I like them. They are my friends. This wouldn’t be a ploy. I genuinely like one colleague in particular. We discuss the history of Muhammad and Jesus together. Islam is a detestable religion, but my friendship takes precedence.
He doesn’t entirely disagree when I tell him that Muhammad lied, cheated, stole, murdered, tortured and desired to overthrow the world. He justifies by saying that Muhammad was a political leader who waged war, which is different than Jesus’ religious ministry.
We will probably never agree. He gets his news from Al Jazeera. He regularly partakes in anti-Israel protests. His name is identical to one of the 9/11 terrorists. His religious and historical perspectives are warped. But he likes me and I like him. We talk freely. I doubt he’ll behead me.
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This is even more fun than watching you guys pick the best “values” candidate.
Of course, one of those candidates will eventually win. Some kind of truth or resolution will be had.
All of these interpreters of the divine have been beating each others brains in for milennia and nobody’s won yet, nor will anybody. That might say something about the absence of any, rather than the correctness of one, mightn’t it?
Everybody is an atheist with respect to everybody else’s god. And no promoter of any particular god would ever have it any other way. It’s bad for business.
Just look at how many of the Christian god’s ten demands deal not with man’s behavior but with exclusivity and fealty and ritual.
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MWT,
Neuhaus is mistaken, biblically. There is only one true God, and those who worship another do not worship Him. I’m not theologian enough to answer the question about whether Jews worship the true God; it would seem that they worship the true God, but do not worship Him correctly if they do not come to Him through Jesus. But Muslims claim to believe in the God of the Old Testament also, and like Jews deny the deity of Jesus. Again, I don’t know the distinctions here, but we simply cannot say that since there IS only one God, any and all worship is accounted as worship of the one true God. That’s nonsense. Those who worship a false god worship a false god, as did the Baal worshipers Elijah debated with fire.
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Cheryl,
What’s difference between worshiping a false god and worshiping God incorrectly?
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There are many religions as you know – Christ died for my sins, it is through HIM that I have Salvation. There is no point in celebrating Ramadan for a true Christian Believer – WHY? because my allegiance is to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -
To the Muslim, Ramadan is the holiest time of the year, it is a time to worship Allah – I don’t worship Allah, it would be sinful for me to celebrate worship to a false god.
Christians have no reason to placate those whom they know who worship false gods, by joining their celebrations -
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Victoria,
If you were a Christian living in the Middle East you’d worship Allah because that’s what they call Him.
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[Xion-wrote]
“He doesn’t entirely disagree when I tell him that Muhammad lied, cheated, stole, murdered, tortured and desired to overthrow the world. He justifies by saying that Muhammad was a political leader who waged war, which is different than Jesus’ religious ministry.”
Abdullah Ibn-Amr, May Allah be pleased with both, reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:
“He who kills a promisor (a non-Muslim living among Muslims where he is promised to have protection, and he promises not to help enemies against Muslims, hence, he is called ‘a promisor’), will not smell the fragrance of paradise, though its fragrance is recognizable from a distance of forty years.” narrated by Al Bukhari.
Thomas Carlyle in ‘Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,’ 1840
“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.”
The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History is a 1978 book by Michael H. Hart.
1]Muhammad (570–632)
2]Isaac Newton (1643–1727)
3]Jesus Christ (7–2 BC – AD 26–36)
“My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential person may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence, which I feel, entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.”
Annie Besant in “The Life and Teachings of Mohammad”
“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knew how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel, whenever I reread them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”
De Lacy O’Leary in ‘Islam at the Crossroads,’ London, 1923.
“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”
“The Sayings of Muhammad” by Sir Abdullah Suhrawardy (1882-1935)
Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first
I am no more than man; when I order you anything respecting religion, receive it; and when I order you anything about the affairs of the world, then I am nothing more than man
Muhammad(s) once said to Anas, “Son, if you are able, keep your heart from morning till night and from night till morning, free from malice towards anyone;” then he said, “Oh! my son, this is one of my laws, and he who loveth my laws verily loveth me.”
He is not a good Mumin who committeth adultery or getteth drunk, who stealeth,or plundereth, or who embezzleth; beware, beware
When you speak, speak the truth; perform when you promise; discharge your trust; commit not fornication; be chaste; have no impure desires; withold your hands from striking, and from taking that which is unlawful or evil. The best of God’s servants are those who, when seen, remind of God; and the worst of God’s servants are those who carry tales about to do mischief and separate friends, and seek for the defects of the good.
That person is not a perfect Muslim who eatheth his fill, and leaveth his neighbors hungry
Verily, god is mild, and is fond of mildness, and he giveth to the mild what he doth not to the harsh
The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self.
Shall I not inform you of a better act than fasting, alms, and prayers? Making peace between one another: enmity and malice tear up heavenly rewards by the roots.
All God’s creatures are His family; and he is the most beloved of God who doeth most good to God’s creatures.
A man is bound to do good to his parents, although they may have injured him.
The proud will not enter Paradis, nor a violent speaker.
He is not of me who, when he speaketh, speaketh falsely; who, when he promiseth, breaketh his promises; and who, when trust is reposed in him, faileth in his trust.
God hath not created anything better than Reason, or anything more perfect, or more beautiful than Reason; the benefits which God giveth are on its account; and understanding is by it, and God’s wrath is caused by disregard of it.
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What Arcadia said.
Also, if you remove the superstitious “I believe because my superstitious belief is truer than your superstitious belief because it JUST IS” statements from this web site, not much is left.
At one time or another, I’ve seen Mormons, Catholics, and a “Moonie” posting at worldmagblog, but you valiantly repelled them all from your walls. I am waiting for a Muslim to show up so you can have an “interfaith dialog.”
The world is full of people with irreconcilably beliefs. How do we keep from destroying each other in the “Name of God?”
I know you beaver away converting everyone to your flavor of Christianity, and someone wrote a good comment about salesmanship recently, but the conservative Christian solution to all the ills of the world is convert everyone, not only to evangelical Christianity but also to be libertarian Republican voters as well.
Just not going to happen. Any other ideas?
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MWT – 33
The Muslims can call their god whatever they like, my GOD is GOD Almighty, HIS Son died on the Cross – - – - Allah didn’t die for anyone, he doesn’t have a son.
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#34 Thank you Ajaz for your effort, but you are ignoring history and your prophet’s own words.
Read hear about the torture Muhammad proscribed.
Read here of Muhammad’s commands to murder
Read here of his instruction to lie and decieve.
Read here of his abuse of women.
Read here of his commands to fight Jihad.
Read here of his hatred toward Christians.
Read here of his hatred toward Jews.
Muhammad was a villain, a highway bandit, an assassin, a murderer, a liar, a thief, a terrorist and a false prophet.
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MWT, I don’t know you, don’t know if you’re a Christian. If you are, you worship the one true God. Do you always worship Him correctly? See the distinction?
We can only come to God through Jesus–even if we want to come to the true Father directly, we cannot do so. Today’s Jewish people don’t even worship the Father with Old Testament modes of worship, since they attempt to come without a sacrifice. The worship they offer, apart from Christ, is false worship. They are worshiping (more or less) the God of the Old Testament, but an incomplete and ultimately inaccurate picture of Him. Beyond that I simply cannot go. But I can say for sure that worshiping one’s belly button is no worship of the true God in any form or fashion, and worshiping a made-up false god isn’t worshiping the real god, even misguidedly. That’s why I’m hesitant to make any pronouncement at all on the Jews who worship the revealed God of the Old Testament, but without Jesus. Without Jesus, they’re lost, and their view of God is incomplete, but they are worshiping (inaccurately) the true God on some level, not a made-up deity. Again, I cannot go beyond that. The Muslim god, the Mormon god, etc. are based loosely on the God of the Old Testament (with some NT thrown in for the Mormons), but are not Yahweh.
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Victoria,
I wasn’t clear. Allah is Arabic for God. Arabic-speaking Christians (not just Muslims) use the term Allah. So, yes you worship Allah.
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Cheryl,
There is no Muslim god or Mormon god – there one God. There are Muslim or Mormom interpretations or understandings of God. See the distinction?
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No, MWT, it isn’t a legitimate distinction. I could say that my toenail is God, but would you say my problem is mere misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the true God, or that my toenail is not God at all, in any way, shape, or form? It simply cannot be said that any being called god is the true God, but just a “misunderstanding.” More often than not, it’s an altogether false god. Blue is not just another shade of pink.
Let’s put it another way. I truly believe Satan stands behind much false worship. If people are worshiping a false god that can actually sometimes provide wonders and signs, but those signs are Satan’s miracles, are they really only worshiping the true God in the wrong way, or are they worshiping a god who is not God at all? I believe it is truly possible to worship Satan, knowingly or unknowingly–and to say one who is doing so is worshiping God, just incorrectly, is far more than a semantic difference.
I believe the whole concept of idolatry is because it is possible to worship a god that is no God at all, not just a false “portrayal” of God. In a college English class I taught, I had a student argue that anything and everything was art, that the chalkboard was art. I told him if anything and everything is art, the word itself is made meaningless. One might just as well say everything is a pencil as to say everything is God–in fact, claiming my toothpaste is a pencil has no danger of blasphemy, so it’s rather safer.
I’ll say the same thing here as I said to my student; one simply cannot say that anything and everything is God, but simply sometimes a misinterpretation of God. My toenail is not God. The god of the Mormons is not the true God. I truly don’t care if he’s “based on” the true God. He’s a false god and thus no God at all. He never existed at all. He is not the true and living God. Period.
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And MWT, I don’t think you ever answered my question (I don’t remember if I stated it directly): Are you a Christian? Is this an academic exercise only, or a theological issue that actually matters to you?
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Cheryl,
Read post #16 for your answer. By the way, what is the denomination of the church you I attend?
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Cheryl,
You said in a previous post:
It would seem that they (Jews) worship the true God, but do not worship Him correctly if they do not come to Him through Jesus.
This seems to contradict post 41. In other words, how wrong do you have to be to be an idolator?
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All of these interpreters of the divine have been beating each others brains in for milennia and nobody’s won yet, nor will anybody.
The Lord Jesus Christ has won, Arcadia.
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power.How we thank God, who gives us victory over sin and death through Jesus Christ our Lord! – 1 Corinthians 15:54-56
Your response to the Gospel Arcadia is nothing new.
And the men who held him mocked him, beating Him; and covering Him up, asked Him saying, Prophesy, who is it that struck thee? And they said many other injurious things to him.” – Luke 22:63-65
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If they made fun of Jesus, God incarnate, then it’s safe to say in my estimation people will continue to mock and ridicule those who believe in His name, the name above all names, the Lord Jesus Christ.
“And they clothe him with purple, and bind round on him a crown of thorns which they had plaited. And they began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews! And they struck his head with a reed, and spat on him, and, bending the knee, did him homage. And when they had mocked him, they took the purple off him, and put his own clothes on him; and they lead him out that they may crucify him.” – Mark 15:17-20
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I just noticed that for the first time (as far as I know) Muslims are now posting comments on worldmagblog.
The issue remains: in a world full of people who all are sure they alone know the “true God,” how can they live together without killing each other?
Or does it boil down to a case of “last man or woman standing wins?”
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Arcadia & Random
Your tone is a mocking one. Most of your posts to me indicate you both seem to have the moral, rational high ground in the “religious” debate. Arcadia, when I ask you basic questions about empiricism and what you believe, you ignore me.
Random, when I press you for empirical evidence of what you believe and how you know, you back into a corner and tell me its all a matter of opinion.
You may continue to mock and ridicule all you wish, of course. That’s up to you. But at least for me in what I continue to read from both of you, I do not see any sort of pursuasive agnostic or atheistic alternative which doesn’t eventually end up contradicting itself or begging questions.
Arcadia, you have yet to tell me how it is you can prove empirically that empiricism is the only means we have as humans in understanding the truth of reality.
Random, at least you’ve admitted its just your opinion.
Arcadia, you keep throwing around the word “dangerous”, bringing up this whole “killing is bad” “death is bad” but have failed to inform any of us where you get that notion. You’ve yet to define what good and evil are and from where they come.
You of course are free to ignore me. This is an open forum. And while I can only speak for myself, the ridicule and scorn you bring here toward Christianity and Christians is unbecoming of someone who has yet to articulate how and why you believe what “truth” is.
Random, you told me truth is “tentative” but I reminded you that saying such a thing is not a tentative truth, it has to be an absolute.
Anyhow, thems my thoughts.
OH
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Perhaps we should all re-read Adios at #15. This is happening, not only in Egypt, but all over the world. I had the privilage od listening to an ex-Hindu monk who had a divine encounter with Jesus. He relates of the time that he and many of his fellow monks were in prayer, seeking the ‘truth’ As they were crying out to whomever they believed was God, Jesus appeared in their midst, revealing the Truth to them. Mass conversion! God is God, and we are not! We are only to be ambassadors for Christ and leave the rest to Him. It is a ministry that I often fail in. Jesus said “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as sepents and harmless as doves.” Matt. 10:16 He also said, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their frrt, and turn and tear you in pieces.” Matt. 7:6
I must repent of being argumentative, and return to my first duty.
Blessings
Roger
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Roger
Much wisdom in what you say. I needed to be reminded of the possibility of being trampled and torn.
Much of what this blog ends up becoming for me is a trampling and tearing of my time and for what?
Nothing much at all.
Thank you sir for the reminder.
OH
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Jesus Christ is the Lord to the glory of God.
Amen.
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Mt apologies to Bob Buckles and Rick Warren. I reckon it was somebody else I was thinking of falsely.
Maybe it is just time for me to clam up, since I usually get into trouble over these matters.
keep the peace.
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Cherly,
I mostly agree with you and MWT too. However, by saying everyone else worships God inaccurately, you are implying that you worship him accurately. I have a slight problem with that.
No one worships God “accurately”. No one has a complete understanding of him, nor will we ever. He chose to reveal himself slowly over thousands of years.
Romans 1 ways that God has revealed himself to all men, so they are without excuse. Ask anyone on earth about God and they will have a reaction. No one is ignorant of the concept. Yet Romans 1 goes on to say they became vain in their imagination. Their view of God became warped and they started worshiping other things.
But since God has revealed himself spiritually to all living things, then it is possible for any living things to worship him even though they don’t fully understand him.
All people who worship God do so with an incomplete understanding of him, i.e. an image or concept of him in their heads. The danger is when people start to think this image or imaginary view is actually him. Some people think that this image talks to them, the little voice in their heads. People start to think that their imaginary view is correct and all others are wrong. It is a form of idolatry.
We must be willing to acknowledge that our view of God is only a minuscule understanding. We must be willing to continually abandon old ways of thinking as we seek his face and learn more about him.
And so, I am not so quick to say that everyone who is not a Christian worships a false god. Muhammad got one thing right. He got the idea of monotheism from the Jews. And aside from occasional digression into idolatry, the Jews worship the one true God.
Allah means God in Arabic, similar to the Aramaic Eloah. Arabic New Testaments call God Allah. Their view of him is warped, but I wouldn’t presume to know the relationship between every creature and their Creator.
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XION
What of 1 John 2.22-23? What do you think of that in relation to Judaism and Islam?
”Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son has not the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
What’s left if there’s a denial of Christ? No Son, no Father.
I agree there ain’t a one of us who worships absolutely correctly. Our margin of error in this respect is why Christ had to die. But an out and out denial of the Lord Jesus regarding His divinity and sonship is something. Jesus Christ as Lord being replaced by the idea of someone or something else seems to be indicative to me of idolatry.
OH
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Cheryl,
I don’t understand the standard you have for whether or not a faith is worshiping God. For example:
Mormons – believe Jesus is the Son of God, but add a bunch of extra-biblical stuff — you say they don’t worship the one, true God
Jews – reject Jesus, but provide Christians with their “foundation” — you don’t know if they worship the one, true God despite their outright rejection of Jesus as Messiah
Muslims – reject Jesus as Son of God, but believe in the same Old Testament God who is the creator of heaven and earth, etc. — You say they don’t worship the one, true God.
See what I mean?
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MWT
Mormon’s final authority is the Book of Mormon, not Scripture. Many who claim to know Christ will in the end, not be known of Him.
Jews – the foundation is not provided by Jews, for God can make children of Abraham come from stones. The foundation is the Word. You can say the foundation came through the Jews, but ultimately the foundation for Christianity is Christ before the foundation of the World (Ephesians 1).
Muslims can say all they wish they worship the God of the OT, but if they aren’t adhering to Exodus, the Law, Leviticus and all the rest of the glorious and, well, bloody and arduous requirements for worshipping YHWH back then, they aren’t.
Just some thoughts.
OH
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The problem for Muslims is that they do not recognize Christ as the Savior, or the Way to God (Allah). So, yes, they’re seeking God, but not in the name of Jesus. Biblically, they are like thieves trying to climb over the fence into the sheepfold instead of using the Door (Jesus.)
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Victoria: Thanks for your good info on McLaren.
OldHickory: I appreciate your keeping us on track with the Scriptures. McLaren and others seem to wander far astray from that sure foundation.
Adios: Your Egyptian visit and reference to prayers for Christ’s message to be delivered to Muslims via dreams reminds me of an excellent and current (2006) video, More Than Dreams. The one true God is not limited to the physical presence of Christian missionaries to deliver His message in “closed” lands. The video details the cases of five Muslims who were confronted by Jesus (the Holy Spirit) in dreams and were thereby led to seek the assistance of Christians in learning the more complete message as found in the Scriptures. The case of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 shows the Holy Spirit acting independently (and outside of traditional human methods) in the lives of these two men to accomplish His purposes regardless of physical obstacles. Are such things also happening today? Yes, and it is encouraging to me to see evidence of that, not only from videos like More Than Dreams, but also from first-hand reports from missionaries to the Muslim world.
Ajaz: Your Islamic apologetics are inconsistent with the bulk of worldwide Muslim behavior and the overwhelming majority of Islamic writing and speaking. Muslim behavior is atrocious in more ways than can be counted. The majority of Islamic writing and speaking is exactly opposite to your feeble claims of peace, good will, and harmony. No one with eyes to see and ears to hear believes your picture of Islam.
Xion Many thanks for your good links to the truths of Islam and the evils of Muhammad. That’s an excellent website for future reference. You say that, “Muhammad was a villain, a highway bandit, an assassin, a murderer, a liar, a thief, a terrorist and a false prophet.” To your list I would add, pedophile.
Many comments have been made on this thread about true and false religions. Here is an excellent illustration. Counterfeits, to be credible, are absolutely dependent upon their imitation of the truth, but a little bit of falsehood renders the whole product unacceptable. For example, a counterfeit fifty dollar bill is intended by its maker to be as close as possible to the real thing and it will fool many; but somewhere in its makeup is a flaw that will, to the discerning eye, reveal that it is not the genuine article coming from the ONE authorized source. Some counterfeits are as clumsy and obvious as a crayon drawing, while others are so slick and sophisticated that they are almost impossible to detect. But in either case, it is a counterfeit, a fake, and it is not acceptable as legal tender.
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MWT,
I’ve said very, very clearly that I cannot draw in all the lines. I’ve said what I’m willing to declare (that it’s possible to worship a false god that is not God) and what I’m suggesting only as a possibility (how Judaism fits in). I don’t see anything more I can add. BTW, your earlier post didn’t definitively declare yourself to be a Christian; you seemed to be speaking of others (though possibly, not certainly, including yourself) in the declaration of being a Christian. Of your own belief, you said certainly in post 16 only that you believe in one God. I’ll accept that you meant to declare yourself a Christian, but the ambiguity is why I asked for clarification. I’m PCA, raised Baptist. And you?
Xion, I don’t understand what you’re calling me on. Even as I was posting I was thinking of some poem (by C. S. Lewis, I think) that all of us tend to worship our own image of God more than we worship God accurately. I never claimed otherwise. I do claim to have come to God through Jesus, not my own intelligence or my own merit. That I’m a sinner and imperfect in my understanding of God isn’t really relevant to the question of whether it’s possible to worship a false god. I already said that even those of us who worship the true God worship Him inaccurately, but that’s not the real point. The Bible talks about idolatry, so such a thing must be possible.
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I said “we Christians” in post 16 – that seems clear with regard to whether or not I’m a Christian. I belong to a UMC church though I was raised Southern Baptist.
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MWT,
Random Name (no Christian) could say your first sentence in post 16. Taking it from an indirect quote to a direct quote will show you (grammatically) what I mean:
To those who say that Muslims don’t worship the same God as we Christians . . .
becomes, with no change in meaning,
To those who say, “Muslims don’t worship the same God as we Christians . . .”
I wasn’t trying to be nitpicky, but the sentence itself really doesn’t definitively put you in the “we,” because “those” means “other people.” It might suggest you’re a Christian, but it doesn’t state it. (I’m an editor, and part of my job is clearing up such ambiguities with authors.)
Thanks for your clarification. I really did think you were a Christian, but in the past I have thought some posters on here were Christians and responded to them as though they were, to be told by them that they were not. It’s easier to know how to speak to someone (what presuppositions to use and not use) if you know.
Blessings on you.
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I can see how my sentence is unclear. I assumed that without quotes it would be read as example #1 not #2 where “we Christians” meant us – i.e., Christians. But, you’ve got an editor’s eyes.
By the way, I’m not arguing for any sort of religious pluralism. It seems like if you say anything positive about another religion certain Christians get really jumpy. C.S. Lewis said that being a Christian didn’t mean rejecting everything about others religions, just what contradicts Christianity.
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All the people I’ve know who were missionaries in Muslim lands have kept Ramadan – not for Ramadan’s sake, but for the sake of the Gospel. It allowed them times of focused prayer for the people around them, enhanced understanding of the lives of their neighbors (and the joyous evening meals), and sometimes, opportunities to explain why, as a Christian, they were entering into a “Muslim” ritual. They didn’t do it for ritual. They did it for the Gospel. I personally think Paul would be proud.
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#58 Michael Martin
Excellent post!
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Cheryl, I understood your points.
Romans 1.21-22 does shed more light on the discussion. At least for me it provides a rationale for the diversity of ways in which man attempts to articulate his dimmed knowledge of God apart from Christ. I’d agree with MWT regarding what C.S. Lewis said. If we look closely at the divine impulse within every religion, we’ll see similar expressions.
“—for from the world’s creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, —so as to render them inexcusable.”
So while there is a knowledge of God which exists tacitly within every human being, such a knowledge is not sufficient for salvation. It is, however, sufficient for holding man accountable.
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The counterfeit wishes to deceive the very elect of GOD the Father – there are many gods and religions in this world, but there is only ONE true GOD. The antichrist will be the greatest deserver of all, he will emulate GOD in every way possible.
There is nothing in the word of GOD, that comes close to what the above quote from the Qur’an states – for this reason and many others, the GOD of the Bible is not the same GOD as Allah.
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OH: Empiricism is the way humans sort out reality every day, from empirically observing the alarm clock on the bedstand and believing from past experience that it is correct and that if you reach over to push the button it will cease ringing, to determing that eating is the best way to alleviate hunger pangs.
All else is guesswork.
You choose to live your life and determine your course of action millions of times every day using your ability to observe and react. Your life, and the lives of others depends upon that.
Yet as this subject comes up, you rely exclusively on some kind movie that runs exclusively in your own head. It is certainly not the exact same movie that runs in anybody else’s head. That, to me, comes very close to meeting the definition of insanity.
And when that movie in your head tells you to force me to behave or not to behave in x way, you can hardly expect me, who sees no movie, or other people who see a very different movie from obeying you.
There is no way for me or any of the others to convince you that your movie does not exist or that it is different from what you think it is.
And if the movie tells you that the alarm clock is wrong or a heretical device, so you ignore it, you will miss work, or your kids won’t get breakfast, or other “real” consequences will ensue. No matter what your movie told you.
That’s your choice.
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Arcadia
I do not argue against the practical benefits of empirical knowledge.
What cannot be proven with empiricism Arcadia, is that empiricism is the sole, foundational determinant for understanding truth and reality, especially when we discuss good and evil. And since you’ve made it abundantly clear religions are “dangerous” and the likes, I would thus suspect you could prove your moral assertions empirically.
Morality does not submit itself nicely to the empirical process. One must take a definition of good or evil upon faith in an authority, whether it be yourself or a source outside yourself. What’s yours?
For example, make an attempt to prove to me, using empiricism, your own definitions of good and evil, right and wrong, truth and falsehood. If this is the way you opperate Arcadia, then be consistent and let us see empirically tested moral truths of yours and let us compare them to what you demand of the Christian faith.
you rely exclusively on some kind movie that runs exclusively in your own head. It is certainly not the exact same movie that runs in anybody else’s head. That, to me, comes very close to meeting the definition of insanity.
Differences of thought and belief equating to insanity? You have an exclusive take on things, different from others. So does this qualify people with different points of view as nearly insane or just religious people? Pardon me for not fully comprehending what you’re saying here.
Thank you for the response, though. I appreciate it. Sometimes I do get a bit frustrated by your critiques. I think its easy to criticize. My interest is in trying to see what it actually is you believe about good, evil, morality and truth if the Christian faith isn’t true. What informs your worldview? We know what you think of Christianity, how about a bit of insight into what Arcadia thinks constitutes reality, morals, etc.
Thanks again. Hope you sold a few houses today or at least were working on it to your satisfaction!
OH
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Interesting that MacLaren would feel that the Koran ought to be observed by non-Muslims when the emergent church has such a lackadaisical attitude towards requiring Christians to observe the Bible.
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KRM, interesting obervation.
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I am not starting a religion. I am not leading a political party.
I try to lead a decent life (without having an impeccable or infallible definition of what that means). I grew up in a damaged family as did my wife. We tried to create a constructive family with our child and we are pleased that she seems to be doing the same with her partner and their child.
I am not an expert on Islam, and obviously there is a strong streak of homicidal and deranged behavior in that religion, though I have been around a lot of Muslims who seem to speak and at in a perfectly reasonable way.
I have met plenty of Christians who seem fine to me and I have met some who seem a bit deranged and disturbing. The sect at worldmagblog presents itself as having some special insight about reality and special claim to organizing and directing our society. I find your claims dubious in general. Hickory, you seem to be a fairly polite and gentle person. However, you make claims that I consider dubious and I have said so, though without malice, I think.
I feel no obligation to offer you a global and more grandiose description of reality than the myth you believe, and I will consider to criticize and mock (usually following TOS) the nonsense (to me) I see posted here because it satisfies and amuses me to do so. I am old, I will croak one of these days or years; lots of other people will come along who disagree with you and find much about evangelical Christianity incoherent, ridiculous, mostly untrue, and will say so, sometimes politely, sometimes vehemently.
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random,
As far as the Muslims posting on WM, they consider Jesus Christ as one of the prophets.
If they keep reading here they’ll realize that the infallible Bible is THE final authority on the Person, Life, and Work of Jesus Christ.
Yippee!
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (1Ti 3:16)
And soon, they might have so much joy, in the liberty found in Christ, that they just might want to drop by for a ham sandwich.
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Random –
I say nothing derogatorily about you as a person and shall forever by God’s grace remain coridal to you as we engage from time to time. Thanks.
You say this –
I feel no obligation to offer you a global and more grandiose description of reality than the myth you believe…
That’s too bad. A nice dodge, but too bad. I was looking forward to a short post on the world according to Random. It’d be a refreshing change from the same sort of jejune criticisms with which you so courteously and continuously offer the WMB. Then we could start critiquing your beliefs. It would only be fair.
and I will consider to criticize and mock (usually following TOS) the nonsense (to me) I see posted here because it satisfies and amuses me to do so.
Is that because you derive a sense of superiority from putting others down or what? Seems petty for someone of your standing, a grandpa nonetheless, to spend time mocking Christians on a blog. I mean really. It strikes me as absolutely ridiculous. I’ve expressed to you before that it makes it inherently difficult for me to take your criticisms seriously. Are you thinking that such banalities with which from time to time you share with us are actually effectual in helping us change our minds about stuff? I could understand this coming from a twenty-something collegiate agnostic, but not a grandpa with a plethora of unique life experiences.
I can only speak for myself, but for someone who goes out of their way to find articles about people who claim to be Christians doing or saying outrageous things that make headlines and suggesting, even remotely, that such behavior for a majority of Christians is normal or a sign that Christianity isn’t true is ridiculous. I’m not saying you personally are ridiculous Random, although you might be, I am from time to time, but some of the stuff you put up in here and the things you say seem utterly ridiculous.
Especially if it’s some attempt at convincing folks on WMB that it’s some sort of “evidence” that the Bible isn’t true or that true believers are wackos. The only comments in my book that are lookin’ a bit sketchy at this point are yours, Bubba. Childish and silly, but nothing significantly substantial.
You wish to convince me of my ignorance, show me your truth. It’s easy to ridicule and criticize Random. It’s a bit more challenging to articulate an alternative. I wish you would. I’d love to read it.
Till next time!
OH
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Personal post script –
Random. No you have not been malicious to me personally. I remain steadfast in my belief you mock and ridicule Christianity and sometimes Christians or people who call themselves as such, but I’ve never thought you were ever being malcious to me at any time. You have been candid with me and I appreciate it. No personal fouls, no ad homs. I think what you say is nuts o sometimes, but whether or not you are actually nuts o is not my call to make. I’m a bit of a loon myself. My judgments sometimes resemble the justice of an ostrich.
OH
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OH: Since you utterly reject empiricism when it comes to this one subject, while using it constantly in the rest of your life, why in …ugh…heaven’s name should I bother trying to proove empirically the existance or non-existance of anything or any proposition you regard as a matter of faith.
I can certainly to some extent provide empirical evidence of the evils done by believers in the name or practice of their faith, and do so fairly regularly. Overall, I find that balance sheet somewhat lacking.
I think our fundamental difference is different definitions of morality. I define the ultimate morality in more or less altruistic ways–the greatest good for the greatest number of human beings in the world I know. The humans are here and they are real and they suffer and I don’t like that and urge actions to prevent it.
You define it as whatever it is you think your god wants.
You truly don’t care if people die, if that is what your god tells you is right. Even a cursory reading of your book makes it clear that genocide, torture, rape, slavery, terrible diseases and a host of other nasty practices are A)committed by your god or B) encouraged by your god, depending on the circumstances. If you believe the bible, you must believe that.
Even though Christians in general make a big deal over “family” values, their own purported saviour makes it clear that even family doesn’t matter–only obedience and fealty to the god do.
Nothing else matters when it comes to this god–all the empirical observations and empirically derived rules of conduct mean nothing depending on his or his interpreter-of-the-day’s whim.
Thus every man becomes his own god in your system, accountable to no other person.
Least of all anyone who seeks to live in a rational, emprirical world.
While I do not know enough about other religions, it is pelucidly clear to me that true faith in either the Christian or the Muslim god demands that the believer exercise dominion and control over others, simply because their unconverted existance is an insult or a threat to that god.
Your own god killed every living human being save two or three and you refuse to condemn him. He has deliberately visited plagues, diseases, tortures and horrible deaths upon billions, and promises eternal torture for those who survive without belief. And you refuse to condemn him for that merely because YOU will be spared. So please don’t speak to me about morality. When it comes to anyone outside of your circle of like-minded people, you have none.
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Arcadia -
Good evening and thanks for taking the time to respond once more.
Not all of our knowledge we have as human beings Arcadia is of the empirical sort. Since you are the empiricist, demanding you have proof of God’s existence, I simply turned the tables and demanded proof from you about right and wrong, that’s all. If your world is staunchly empirical, so must your morality be. If not, your “morality” becomes rather a matter of personal subjectivity. Ok fine. But note that it thus seems a bit silly for critiquing people who don’t believe what you believe. There’s no danger, just a matter of differring opinions. We all die and no one wins. Who cares?
I think our fundamental difference is different definitions of morality.
This is apparent and I agree.
I define the ultimate morality in more or less altruistic ways–the greatest good for the greatest number of human beings in the world I know.
Who says that’s what morality is? You? You say I define…so then do you mean to imply you also would then want to share this belief or definition with others I assume? Who would you include in your “greatest number of human beings” or would you individually select the recipients of your beneficence? Why should others accept your notion of goodness? What’s so unique and transforming about it? So your morality comes from you, then? Not a book, not a philosopher, not a teacher, government or religion. Just you. Ok.
You have mentioned this to me before, but I’m still hung up on what you mean by “good” though. Although now I do see it a bit more clearly. You seem to make it up. Here’s the struggle I have with your posts, Arcadia. You obviously opperate from a certain set of moral presuppositions of good and evil but have not clearly articulated where you get those definitions.You chastise, ridicule and hurl vitriol against the faith, saying its “dangerous” “evil” and all of that but what are your standards? It appears to me you’re sort of making them up to suit your arguments and somewhat borrowing from the traditional notion of the Judeo-Christian definition of the word which has permeated Western Civ now for some 2,000 years.
Your “greatest good for the greatest number” says nothing about goodness or badness in any degree.
Evolutionarily speaking, if man is the direct or indirect result of matter, plus time, plus chance, with no inherent meaning given to him upon his existence, then he must construct his own set of values, meaning and purpose, which is what I believe you do. In this you are consistent. Morality, as you say above, is how you define it.
This however puts you in the incovenient position of being wholly unable to judge or assess the rightness, goodness, meaning or intent of other peoples, cultures, times or beliefs of man in general, for he’s done the same thing you have an no one is “wrong”. We might be wrong according to a few people and right according to a few others, but in the end, evolution and natural selection do not provide an arbiter to settle our differences. We exist in man-made moral constructs and must fight for survival.
You posit Christianity is man-made. How is it you feel your morality is somehow above that claim? How is is not? And why do you think your definition of morality can or should be universally applied to others?
I can certainly to some extent provide empirical evidence of the evils done by believers in the name or practice of their faith, and do so fairly regularly.
You do this, it is true. But I’m still not sure what you mean by “evils”. Your idea of evil, certainly. But does your definition merit universal application? Again, what is evil and from where does it originate for you to be so certain something is in fact evil? Who do you think is evil and why? Killing, death and murder, evil? How so? What if that’s the right thing to do? Oh, no wait, you think its wrong so it must be wrong. I get it.
The rest of your post is relatively unrelated to the questions I asked you. We aren’t debating Christianity, Arcadia. We’re talking about what you believe. I’m well aware of your criticisms of the faith. The very fact you feel it necessary that I condemn God, however, is proof positive you opperate from a worldview which has its own presuppositions. I’ve seen them before in philosophy, especially Neitchze. Fine, have them, but note they are purely your own.
Your own god killed every living human being save two or three and you refuse to condemn him. He has deliberately visited plagues, diseases, tortures and horrible deaths upon billions, and promises eternal torture for those who survive without belief. And you refuse to condemn him for that merely because YOU will be spared. So please don’t speak to me about morality. When it comes to anyone outside of your circle of like-minded people, you have none.
Now, here is another inconsistency I’ve seen in your posts, Arcadia. You mention that God does not exist, that Scripture is fiction but then write something like this as though God really did do all that as you say. So what’ll it be?
A) It didn’t really happen.
B) It did really happen.
I shall not trouble you any more about morality. It is obvious to me you and I have reached the end of the line, given this last comment and I shall respect it.
It’s easy to criticize, Arcadia. Very easy. It’s more difficult to articulate a sound alternative, which in my estimation, from what you’ve posted here and else where, only ends up begging questions and creating contradictions.
But I shall graciously heed to your wishes to not speak to you any longer about morality. It’s not worth either of our time as we are never going to agree.
With all due respect, my best to you Arcadia.
Sincerely,
OH
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#59 CherlyD “Xion, I don’t understand what you’re calling me on.”
I mostly agreed with you, but went off on a very subtle point. Probably not that important. I was simply trying to say that everyone who is not a Christian does not worship a false God. And everyone who is a Christian does not have a perfect understanding of him.
According to Romans 1 the real God has made himself known to everyone, but their view of him devolved for various reasons. And so I would not presume to know what goes on between any creature and his Creator.
That is something quite different than false doctrine and history, which I can debate. I can point out some false doctrine of Catholics, but I wouldn’t say they worship a false God. Same goes for Mormons, Muslims and Jews. Hindus and animists and others actually do worship false gods. Though the one true God has also made himself known to them.
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[quote=Victoria] “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” Sura 5:51[/quote]
Another misunderstood,out of context, islamophobia generating quote.
Friendship with Non-Muslims according to the Qur’an
http://tinyurl.com/mhsuak
Quote = Victoria
“There is nothing in the word of GOD, that comes close to what the above quote from the Qur’an states – for this reason and many others, the GOD of the Bible is not the same GOD as Allah”
Is this the word of your god?
Genesis 19:31,36
The older daughter said to the younger one, “Our father is old. No men are here. We can’t get married as other people do.
Let’s give our father wine to drink.
Then we’ll go to bed with him so that we’ll be able to preserve our family line through our father.”
……
So Lot’s two daughters became pregnant by their father.
PROPHETS OF GOD SLEPT WITH THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS
is this how prophets of god behave?
Isaiah 36:12
But the field commander asked, “Did my master send me to tell these things only to you and your master? Didn’t he send me to the men sitting on the wall who will have to eat their own excrement and drink their own urine with you?”
Song of Solomon 8:1
If only you were my brother, one who nursed at my mother’s breasts. If I saw you on the street, I would kiss you, and no one would look down on me.
Song of Solomon 4:5
Your bre*sts are like two fawns, like twin gazelles grazing among the lilies.
2 Samuel 11:4
So David sent messengers and took her. She came to him, and he went to bed with her. (She had just cleansed herself after her monthly period.) Then she went home.
prophet of god committing adultery?
1 Samuel 18:27
David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.
Luke 19:27
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
By the way we muslims never take the name of Jesus(pbuh) with out saying peace be upon him
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By the way we muslims never take the name of Jesus(pbuh) with out saying peace be upon him
That’s small comfort for Christians who have converted from Islam, and now find their lives in danger.
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Lot wasn’t a prophet.
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I took nothing out of context – have you bothered to read the Qur’an? – if not, I would highly suggest you either pull the one out you have from your shelf or buy one.
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Victoria wrote:
“I took nothing out of context – have you bothered to read the Qur’an? – if not, I would highly suggest you either pull the one out you have from your shelf or buy one. ”
Have you bother to read ?
Friendship with Non-Muslims according to the Qur’an
http://tinyurl.com/mhsuak
I ask you again are these the word of you god?
KILLING OF JEWS IN THE BIBLE
2 Chronicles 13:18
The Israelites fled before Judah, and God delivered them into their hands.
Abijah and his men inflicted heavy losses on them, so that there were five hundred thousand casualties among Israel’s able men.
The men of Israel were subdued on that occasion, and the men of Judah were victorious because they relied on the LORD, the God of their fathers.
MASSACRE IN BIBLE
Numbers 31:21
Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them.
…
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives.
…
Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses
Joshua 6:21,24
They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it–men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
Joshua said to the two men who had spied out the land, “Go into the prostitute’s house and bring her out and all who belong to her, in accordance with your oath to her.
…
Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the LORD’s house.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
Numbers 5:14,21
and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure–or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure-
then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
…
After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you
But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband”–
here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath–”may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell
HUMILIATING JEWS
Ezekiel 4:13
Eat the food as you would a barley cake; bake it in the sight of the people, using human excrement for fuel.
The LORD said, “In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them
Song of Solomon 7:7
Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit
I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples,
PORNOGRAPHY,BESTIALITY IN BIBLE
Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
CHRISTIAN WOMEN BETTER WEAR HIJAB!
OTHERWISE YOU PUNISHMENT IS..
1 Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
.
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Ringbearer wrote:
Lot wasn’t a prophet.
OK!
INCEST IN BIBLE.
Genesis 19:31,36
So Lot’s two daughters became pregnant by their father.
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Incest is not PROMOTED in the Bible, it is recorded as having happened, Ajaz. Your arguments show that you have no understanding of the Scripture.
Islam seems to be a very violent faith when practiced according to the Quran. Why do Muslims kill or persecute Christians who have converted from Islam?
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Ajaz,
The Bible is THE final authority on the Person, Life, and Work of Jesus Christ.
The qur’an is not.
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.’ (1Jo 2:2)
It’s time for you receive Christ.
THEN you’ll be Heaven-bound.
AND you’ll have forgiveness, peace, and joy IN Jesus Christ.
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Ajaz – 82
As far as your post number 82, you haven’t read or understood the Bible, if you had you wouldn’t have written such a jumbled mess.
Many Christian Believers have taken the time to read the Qur’ran, they know what’s in it – The Old Testament and the New Testament represent Law and Grace, which means the Jews were under the Law in the Old Testament, however when Christ died on the cross for our sins we who have believed on HIM for Salvation are now under HIS Grace -
Ajaz, if you want to understand the Bible you need to study it as many of us have taken the time to read and understand the Qur’an. There is no quick way to do this. The problem with many people like yourself, … you have used what you consider clever answers from the internet, using Scripture from the Bible when you have no idea what you’re copy pasting.
Do you own a Bible? – have you ever read it?
The comment you made in your post #78 which I answered in post number 81 –
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BY DJ
“Incest is not PROMOTED in the Bible, it is recorded as having happened, Ajaz. Your arguments show that you have no understanding of the Scripture.”
Bible is inspiration to the Christians, are you not inspired by it?
If men of god in bible can get away with adultery, incest, massacre of men ,women ,children ,and even infants, then what about the average Joe?
Since his sins are already forgiven, he has a free license for, incest, fornication, murder and rape.
No wonder the western society is riddled with adultery, incest, child abuse, teenage pregnancies
“Pastor’s sex with dauther inspired by Bible”
http://tinyurl.com/ybgwarv
“The Christian book was drawn into a row over indecent publications after a sex column in a student magazine was branded too disturbing for young eyes.
The article in “Student Press,” published by students at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, asked readers whether they had fantasized about incest and bestiality. Last week the Obscene Articles Tribunal labelled it “indecent”, meaning that the publication must carry a warning label and can only be sold to over-18s.”
http://tinyurl.com/yeobymn
BY DJ
“Islam seems to be a very violent faith when practiced according to the Quran. Why do Muslims kill or persecute Christians who have converted from Islam?”
Apostates in Islam explained
http://tinyurl.com/3mal4t
“History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”
De Lacy O’Leary, Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p.8.
“The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only…A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so.”
Thomas Carlyle in ‘Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History’, 1840
“The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we cannot go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Koran.”
Johann Goethe, cited in Sir Henry Elliot’s Letters of Johann Goethe, 1865.
THE MOST DANGEROUS BOOK ON
EARTH “ (the Bible), KEEP IT UNDER LOCK AND KEY.”
Keep the Bible out of your children’s reach
sir George Bernard Shaw
.
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BY mytoosense
It’s time for you receive Christ.
THEN you’ll be Heaven-bound.
AND you’ll have forgiveness, peace, and joy IN Jesus Christ
Forgiveness from what?
When Adam and eve committed sin I was non-existing
Why should I be punished for crime which I didn’t even witness?
By the way eve is blamed for the sin by Adam in the bible
And because of this the loving father declared that husband will rule over his wife
Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
Where as in Islam
Both Adam and eve are held responsible for the sin
They said: “Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost.”
Quran(chapter 7,verse 23)
Also there is no original sin in Islam
There is only original goodness
Every child born in this world is sinless in Islam; if a child dies he/she goes to heaven directly
The Christians claim the heavenly father is forgiving
Please show me where is the forgiveness?
Since Jesus (pubh) has already been punished and killed for the sins
If you forgive someone you do not punish and if you punish someone then you have not forgiven
Plain and simple.
So the heavenly father is not so forgiving after all
.
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AJAZ,
You do cut and paste well, but you didn’t answer my question. And you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. But you really should read the Bible. You can not expect to understand the Scriptures if you do not study them.
I wish you no harm. I pray that God will bless you with visions and dreams and insight into the mercy and forgivness that He offers you and all of us through his Son, Jesus (Yahshua). If you pursue this revelation of mercy through Jesus, I believe you will find it. I pray you chose to do so.
Be well.
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#58 Michael Martin
Thank you. You say, “Counterfeits, to be credible, are absolutely dependent upon their imitation of the truth, but a little bit of falsehood renders the whole product unacceptable”.
I agree, of course. Islam, Mormonism and many others are false religions because they are untrue. I can criticize false doctrine. I can debate nuances of good doctrine. But from my understanding of Romans 1, I look at all mankind as having a common bond, as creatures made in the image of their Creator. I won’t deny them this, regardless of how far astray their theology or worldview have taken them.
God claims to have revealed himself to every creature so that they are without excuse. But on their deathbeds, some may remember.
I hesitate to presume to know the heart of every creature. People become vain in their minds and worship other things and deny self-evident truth. It takes a massive amount of self deception to believe the following:
They stand, synapses flashing in their minds, blood coursing through their veins, nerves communicating, muscle fibers coordinating to keep balance, taking in a landscape through the eyes, smelling the air, feeling a cool breeze, contemplating existence. Then they use their lips to form words to deny what they know in their hearts to be true. Contrary to all reason they declare it all a cosmic accident.
Judaism is not a false religion inasmuch as they have the Word of God. However, they added their own false rules that Jesus was highly critical of. But he did not say their God was a false God. I could also criticize the false additions made by Catholics and others, but I would not say their God was not the true God.
I wonder even about aborigines and people to whom the Word of God has never reached. God claims to have revealed himself to them as well. Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus is God. And so who exactly made himself known to all creatures under heaven? Who knows the mind of the one true God? I can only trust that God is good and just in all he does.
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Fasting is a serious subject, it isn’t something we take lightly nor do we use it as a means to cozy up to those who worship a false god.
Religious fasting is a duty required of the disciples of Christ, but it is not so much a duty itself, as a means to dispose us for other duties. Fasting is the humbling of the soul, Psalms 35:13. that is the inside of the duty; let that, therefore, be thy principal care, and as to the outside of it, covet not to let it be seen. God sees in secret, and will reward openly. Matthew Henry
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Xion says
Thank you Ajaz for your effort, but you are ignoring history and your prophet’s own words.
Read hear about the torture Muhammad proscribed.
Read here of Muhammad’s commands to murder
Read here of his instruction to lie and decieve.
Read here of his abuse of women.
Read here of his commands to fight Jihad.
Read here of his hatred toward Christians.
Read here of his hatred toward Jews.
So you are fanboy of anti-Islam hate spreading sites?
No wonder the content and tone of your postings reflects it.
The website that you refer to is well known for its anti Islam propaganda.
Any one who visits this site will know it agenda is to spread hate against Islam
The person craig winn has been thoroughly exposed
You are exposing yourself only to the Tails side of the coin; turn the coin expose yourself to the HEADS side of the coin.
Rebuttals to Craig Winn’s “The Prophet of Doom” book
http://tinyurl.com/yd3yn2l
The Deception of Craig Winn Revealed by Bassam Zawadi
http://tinyurl.com/yba4n78
Answers to Questions & Criticisms of Islam
http://tinyurl.com/ya3nekp
“The Koran abounds in excellent moral suggestions and precepts, its composition is so fragmentary that we cannot turn to a single page without finding maxims of which all men must approve. This fragmentary construction yields texts, and mottoes, and rules complete in themselves, suitable for common men in any of the incidents of life.”
(From John William Draper’s book, A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe)
“I was a bit hesitant because it was to write about a religion I do not profess”
“By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad’s heart flowed with affection and he declared, “This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free.” “This day” he proclaimed, “I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man.”
This was one of the chief objects why he permitted war in self defense, that is to unite human beings. And when once this object was achieved, even his worst enemies were pardoned. Even those who killed his beloved uncle, Hamazah, mangled his body, ripped it open, even chewed a piece of his liver.”
By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy
Government College for Women University of Mysore
Comment 86: Victoria says
“Many Christian Believers have taken the time to read the Qur’ran, they know what’s in it”
Yeah sure! And if they read without preconceived notions and bias, this is the result.
Dr. Jerald Dirks
Dr. Dirks is a former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master’s degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver.
Now if you can stomach the truth watch him.
From Jesus to Muhammad (Pbut)- http://tinyurl.com/y8w4wul
Sue Watson
Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master’s degree in Divinity
Idris Tawfiq
Has a degree in English language and Literature from the University of Manchester and a degree in Sacred Theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome. For many years he was Head of Religious Studies in different schools in England and Wales and has much experience of teaching, both in the UK and Egypt. Before embracing Islam, Idris was a Roman Catholic priest.
Gary Miller
Is a mathematician and a theologian. He was active Christian missionary.
In 1978, he happened to read the Qur’an expecting that it, too, would contain a mixture of truth and falsehood. But ended up being Muslim.
Anselm Tormeeda
14th century CE Majorcan priest and scholar. After embracing Islam, he was known as Abu Muhammad bin Abdullah Al-Tarjuman
Kenneth L. Jenkins
Former Minister and Elder of Church, Indiana USA
Viacheslav Polosin
Former Archpriest of the Russian Orthodox Church
Martin John Mwaipopo
Former Lutheran Archbishop
George Anthony
Former Catholic priest
This is by no means end of list, but enough for now.
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Ajaz,
It’s very good that you can post a list of names of people who converted from Christianity to Islam. Their lives are not in danger for converting. There are plenty of people who have converted to Christianity from Islam, but their lives are often in danger because they convert. Do you agree with killing or persecuting those who convert to Christianity from Islam?
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#92 Ajaz “So you are fanboy of anti-Islam hate spreading sites?”
Those are direct quotes. It isn’t hate if I am merely quoting Muhammad’s own words. You should be able to answer these questions easily. It is part of your own Islamic history.
Please explain to us why Muhammad did these things and why his followers still do them today. If we are ignorant of your religion then please educate us.
- Muhammad robbed camel trains. Why did he do this? Is this OK with you?
- He had people assassinated. Do you approve?
- He ordered Jews to be beheaded. Is that a good thing?
- He advocated torture by cutting of hands and feet and by crucifixion. Why are your brethren still doing this today?
- He promoted terror. Do you support terror?
- He ordered subjugation of all infidels. Do you support this policy?
- He ordered the beating of women. Do you support the beating of women? Do you support honor killings?
- Imams in America have preached the overthrow of America and have plotted terror? Do you support this?
Why do your brethren insist on killing thousands of people in the name of Allah? Can you please explain this to us? We would like to be educated. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things.
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Is that what you do when you read the Bible (that is if you have one and you read it) answer with “preconceived notions”?
After 9-11 there were many people around the world who bought the Qur’an and read it – I was one of those people – I wasn’t a novice as to the beliefs of Islam, but I had never read everything the Qur’an said regarding other people, than those who are Muslim.
I don’t trust Muslim’s, plain and simple – when they make excuses for their beliefs and play games with what they believe the Qur’an to say regarding Jihad I don’t believe a word of it. They danced in the streets of Muslim countries with the towers fell in New York City – of course those who live in the U.S. (Muslims and Muslim sympathizers) don’t admit they had anything to do with the jubilant circus of party time during the hatred and death in NYC. nay that was all happening somewhere else on the planet.
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93 DJ says:
“Do you agree with killing or persecuting those who convert to Christianity from Islam?”
My answer to your question is in this article read it and come back here again.
http://tinyurl.com/ygzv2s
Let me tell you something of what I believe as a Muslim
I believe that Jesus (pubh) was born to Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) without any male intervention.
And did you know?
Not even Christian honor Mary (Allah be pleased with her) as
Islam honors her.
“‘Behold’! the angels said: ‘O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee, and chosen thee above the women of all nations (Holy Quran chapter 3: verse 42) ,”
Above women of all nations? What an honor, don’t you agree!
Hey, but why not Prophet Mohammad’s (pubh) mother? Or his wife? Or any other Muslim women?
But a Jewess?
So much for hating Jews!
As a Muslim I believe that Jesus (pbuh) healed the leapers, performed miracles, even gave life to the dead , but with Allah’s(swt) permission.
I do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) is god and since he is dead if he was god then god is dead.
Are you a good Christian?
And surely you do follow the teaching of your lord and god Jesus.
Matthew 5:17:20
“Don’t ever think that I came to set aside Moses’ Teachings or the Prophets. I didn’t come to set them aside but to make them come true.”
“I can guarantee this truth: Until the earth and the heavens disappear, neither a period nor a comma will disappear from Moses’ Teachings before everything has come true.”
“So whoever sets aside any command that seems unimportant and teaches others to do the same will be unimportant in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches what the commands say will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
“I can guarantee that unless you live a life that has God’s approval and do it more faithfully than the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Deuteronomy 13:4
“It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.”
Now if you really are a good Christian?
Leviticus 24:16
“anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.”
Deuteronomy 13:6:11
“If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other
“do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him.”
“You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.”
“Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.”
“Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.”
Deuteronomy 17:2:5
“If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant,”
“and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky,”
“and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,’
“take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.”
So are you a practicing Christian?
very inspiring i must say.
.
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oh! i forgot
should i be stoned to death?
Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery
.
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AJAZ,
Again, you have failed to answer my very simple question. I will not follow the links to the sites you provide. If you cannot speak for yourself, then I guess we have nothing else to say to each other.
I wish that you will come to know Christ as your Savior. We are all mortals trying to know God. He has provided a way for us to be forgiven of our sins through Jesus. I hope that you find this Him.
Be well.
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98 DJ says
AJAZ,
Again, you have failed to answer my very simple question. I will not follow the links to the sites you provide. If you cannot speak for yourself, then I guess we have nothing else to say to each other.
If I ask you a question
Is your mother out of jail?
Answer yes or no only.
What will be you answer?
The article explains everything beautifully; I don’t want to repeat all that here.
The article speaks for me.
you too be well
i have nothing personal against you or your belief
all i can say what the Holy Quran says
Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship
And I shall not worship that which ye worship
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
chapter 6
.
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95 BY Victoria
“They danced in the streets of Muslim countries with the towers fell in New York City – of course those who live in the U.S. (Muslims and Muslim sympathizers) don’t admit they had anything to do with the jubilant circus of party time during the hatred and death in NYC. nay that was all happening somewhere else on the planet.”
Hmm! So you can’t handle truth, and ignorant as well.
Poll: 93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks – 0% Approve of Attacks on Religious Grounds
One of the largest-ever opinion polls conducted in the Islamic world found that seven percent of Muslims condoned the Sep 11, 2001, attacks on the US, but none of them gave religious justification for their beliefs
http://tinyurl.com/2vbyj7
Statements from Leading Islamic International Academic Organizations on 9/11
http://tinyurl.com/c9pdm
Osama bin laden is blamed for everything from twin towers to the gas leak in your kitchen
But do you know?
He was never charged of 9/11 by the FBI!
“He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”
http://tinyurl.com/y9hgc54
This is not even funny, so much organized misinformation and islamophobia has been spread
That
If a Muslim farts loudly he is accused of exploding a bomb.
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58 BY Michael Martin
“Counterfeits, to be credible, are absolutely dependent upon their imitation of the truth, but a little bit of falsehood renders the whole product unacceptable”
2 Kings 9:29
“And in the eleventh year of Joram the son of Ahab began Ahaziah to reign over Judah”
2 Kings 8:25
“In the twelfth year of Joram son of Ahab king of Israel, Ahaziah son of Jehoram king of Judah began to reign.”
which one is FALSE?
2 Chronicles 36:9
“Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem, and he did evil in the sight of the LORD”
2 Kings 24:8
“Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem; and his mother’s name was Nehushta the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
which one is FALSE?
2 Chronicles 22:2
“Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri.”
2 Kings 8:26
“Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.”
which one is FALSE?
2 Chronicles 8:18
“And Hiram sent him ships commanded by his own officers, men who knew the sea. These, with Solomon’s men, sailed to Ophir and brought back four hundred and fifty talents of gold, which they delivered to King Solomon.”
1 Kings 9:28
“They sailed to Ophir and brought back 420 talents of gold, which they delivered to King Solomon”
which one is FALSE?
2 Samuel 8:4
“David captured from him 1,700 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers; and David hamstrung the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.”
1 Chronicles 18:4
“David took from him 1,000 chariots and 7,000 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers, and David hamstrung all the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.”
which one is FALSE?
Matthew 8:6
“When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”
Luke 7:4
“The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant.
When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this”
which one is FALSE?
Acts 1:18
“(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.”
Matthew 27:5
“So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.”
which one is FALSE?
John 19:30
“When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
Luke 23:46
“Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.”
which one is FALSE?
Leviticus 11:13-19
“These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, … any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat “
FALSE,Bat is not a bird.
Leviticus 11:6
“The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; …”
FALSE, Rabbits do not chew their cud.
1 Chronicles 21:1
“Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel”
2 Samuel 24:1
“Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.””
which one is FALSE?
Now with a little bit of encouragement from you I can go on and on.
58 BY Michael Martin
“a little bit of falsehood renders the whole product unacceptable”
“Some counterfeits are as clumsy and obvious as a crayon drawing, while others are so slick and sophisticated that they are almost impossible to detect. But in either case, it is a counterfeit, a fake, and it is not acceptable as legal tender.”
So Dear Michael which one is COUNTERFEIT to you?
.
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94 BY Xion
“Those are direct quotes. It isn’t hate if I am merely quoting Muhammad’s own words. You should be able to answer these questions easily. It is part of your own Islamic history..”
You have not provided any direct quotes brother.
What you have provided are some links to hate spreading site.
Here are some direct quotes from the bible.
Subjugating and degrading women.
Genesis 3:16
“To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.</b?"”
Genesis 29:26,27
“Laban replied, "It is not our custom here to give the younger daughter in marriage before the older one.”
“Finish this daughter’s bridal week; then we will give you the younger one also, in return for another seven years of work.”
Exodus 21:7
“”If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.”
Deuteronomy 25:11
“If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts,”
“you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.”
2 Samuel 24:1
“”If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.”
“If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins”
Exodus 34:16
“And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same”
Leviticus 19:20
“”‘If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed.”
Numbers 5:22
“May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away.” “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”’
Deuteronomy 21: 11,14
“if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife”
“Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails”
…….
“If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.”
Deuteronomy 24:1
“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,”
1 Kings 1:1,2
“When King David was old and well advanced in years, he could not keep warm even when they put covers over him.”
“So his servants said to him, “Let us look for a young virgin to attend the king and take care of him. She can lie beside him so that our lord the king may keep warm.”’
Genesis 38:8
“Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.””
DIRECT QUOTE FROM QURAN AND HADITHS
Quran chapter 16, verse 97
” Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did.”
“O Mankind, keep your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate (of same kind) and from them twain has spread a multitude of men and women” (Qur’an 4: 1).
It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): “If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful.” (Qur’an 7:189)
…So their Lord accepted their prayers, (saying): I will not suffer to be lost the work of any of you whether male or female. You proceed one from another …(Qur’an 3: 195)
When news is brought to one of them, of (the Birth of) a female (child), his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? Ah! What an evil (choice) they decide on? (Qur’an 16: 58-59).
Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, God will enter him into Paradise. (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957).
“Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim”. (AlBayhaqi). Muslim as used here including both males and females.
“And among His signs is this: That He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest, peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.” (Qur’an 30:2 1).
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of God, Muhammad (P.), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: “Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)” (Ibn Maja, No. 1873).
“And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a degree above them.” (Qur’an 2:228)
Such degree is Quiwama (maintenance and protection) and not of superiority
“…But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good.” (Qur’an 4: l9).
Prophet Muhammad. (P) said:
The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family
The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)
When you divorce women, and they reach their prescribed term, then retain them in kindness and retain them not for injury so that you transgress (the limits). (Qur’an 2:231). (See also Qur’an 2:229 and 33:49).
“And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness…” (Qur’an 31:14) (See also Qur’an 46:15, 29:8).
O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else? Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The Prophet said: ‘The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: ‘Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.’ (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: ‘The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.’ (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
The Prophet said: ‘Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.’ (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)
A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah’s Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, “This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur’an.” After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, ” You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them.” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said: ‘There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.’ (Musnad Ahmad)
The Prophet said: ‘God has revealed to me that you must be humble, so that no one oppresses another and boasts over another.’ (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The Prophet said: ‘The believer is not the one who eats his fill when the neighbour beside him is hungry.’ (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)
The Prophet said: ‘Pay the laborer his due before his sweat dries.’ (Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
A’isha said: ‘I was once riding a difficult (slow-moving) camel, so I kept hitting it. When the Prophet saw me, he said: ‘Be gentle, for gentleness adorns everything in which it is found, and its absence leaves everything tainted.’ (Musnad Ahmad)
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72 BY mytoosense
“If they keep reading here they’ll realize that the infallible Bible is THE final authority on the Person, Life, and Work of Jesus Christ.”
The world’s oldest known Christian Bible goes online Monday — but the 1,600-year-old text doesn’t match the one you’ll find in churches today.
“according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences”
“very important — passages are missing, including verses dealing with the resurrection of Jesus, they said.”
“the British Library project curator, said it should be no surprise that the ancient text is not quite the same as the modern one, since the Bible has developed and changed over the years.’
Now append all the contradiction and errors and profanity and pornography in the bible which are listed above in the posts.
I haven’t even mentioned the banned books from the bible you can watch this documentary
By history channel
tinyurl.c o m/y96qtzn
considering all this do you honestly believe bible is infallible and word of god and final authority on jesus(pbuh)?
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