Translating the president
Few Americans could understand the words of the Norwegian parliamentarian who stepped forward in Oslo last week to announce that the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize had been awarded to President Barack Obama. But we all recognized the name and marveled at the press corps’ stunned reaction: They gasped.
We need to do a lot more translating these days. President Obama is a practiced wordsmith. His words are carefully constructed. Not all Americans have yet learned to interpret what those words mean. For example, the fine you will have to pay if you do not sign up for the healthcare plan he’s preparing is not a tax. It could be thousands of dollars per family, the IRS will collect it, but it is not a tax. It just looks like one.
Americans needed to be wearing those headphones that are so popular at the UN to receive a translation of the president’s speech last Saturday night to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC)—first of all, to help us with the name of the group. The Human Rights Campaign is one of the richest and most powerful of homosexual advocacy organizations. There is no human right properly understood that gays and lesbians have not had in this country, but the name “human rights” lends their aggressive agenda a moral patina.
President Obama hailed the “Stonewall protests, when a group of citizens . . . stood up against discrimination to inspire a movement.”
The riots in Lower Manhattan in the summer of 1969 did indeed spark the “gay rights” movement. But the transvestites who rioted against police were not the usual sort of civil rights pioneers. They were fighting against a New York law that said men could not dress as women. They were also battling against New York laws against solicitation for prostitution. They were also fighting against the exploitation of the mob-owned Stonewall Bar that was a public health hazard.
For those of us who remember Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers’ brave stand at the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Ala, those screaming, kicking, biting “drag queens” in Manhattan seem pretty far from civil rights pioneers.
The president translates the ban on homosexual conduct in the military as a form of employment discrimination:
“My expectation is that when you look back on these years, you will see a time in which we put a stop to discrimination against gays and lesbians—whether in the office or on the battlefield.” (Applause.)
But it’s not discrimination. First of all, nobody has a right to serve in our all-volunteer military.
Second, many exemplary Americans are excluded from military service. Consider, for starters, Americans who are color-blind, or who have diabetes. Third, the reason the military exists is to defend all of us, including gays and lesbians. If the military shield should be broken, all our human and civil rights would be in jeopardy.
Since 1775, the U.S. military has prohibited homosexual conduct. The current policy of “Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell” was a bi-partisan compromise fashioned by President Bill Clinton and a Democratic Congress in 1993. Obama said Saturday:
“I will end Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. That’s my commitment to you.” (Applause.)
If President Obama and the liberals in Congress do this, then military recruiters will seek to enlist gays and lesbians by quota. All recruiting for our all-volunteer military is done by quota—so many black, Hispanic, Asian, female, and now, gay and lesbian signups will be needed.
What will that quota be? Although the most reliable numbers put America’s gay and lesbian population at less than 4 percent, President Obama’s high profile choice for Safe Schools czar, Kevin Jennings, continues to use the discredited figure of 10 percent. His book One Teacher in Ten is premised on Alfred Kinsey’s long since exploded claim that one in 10 American men are homosexual.
If you give military recruiters a task, you must give them a numerical goal. President Obama’s outrageous selection of Jennings shows he’s unwilling to stand up to the most extreme demands of the homosexual movement. Then he moved on to same-sex marriage:
“You will see a time in which we as a nation finally recognize relationships between two men or two women as just as real and admirable as relationships between a man and a woman. (Applause.) . . . I’ve called on Congress to repeal the so-called Defense of Marriage Act. . . .
“And we must all stand together against divisive and deceptive efforts to feed people’s lingering fears for political and ideological gain.”
In this passage, the president did not exactly say he would abolish marriage as a civil institution in the United States. What he will do is support all efforts to counterfeit marriage and oppose all efforts to support it. It means the end of marriage as an institution. That’s because when everyone can marry, no one can marry. There is no longer anything recognizable as marriage.
His obvious contempt for the Defense of Marriage Act—which was passed with strong bi-partisan majorities in 1996 and signed by Democratic President Bill Clinton—shows how truly radical on this issue he is. It passed the House on a vote of 342-67; the Senate approved it 85-14.
Despite his strong liberal majorities in both houses of Congress, there is no measure he has proposed or is likely to propose that could command the kind of support we saw for the Defense of Marriage Act. Liberals and conservatives; Democrats and Republicans; black, Hispanic, Asian, and white members of Congress backed it; even gay and lesbian lawmakers supported the Defense of Marriage Act.
The president calls efforts to support marriage “divisive and deceptive.” Defenders of marriage have won 30 statewide contests. Wherever liberal legislators would allow marriage to be voted on, marriage has won. It is no “wedge” issue, as he suggests, it is a bridge issue that brings together Americans of every race, color, and creed.
President Obama may indeed abolish marriage and use the U.S. military for his brand of social engineering, but it’s hard to believe that this is the “change” Americans voted for last year.

















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back to top80 Comments to “Translating the president”
You better be careful Mr. Blackwell. Expect the attacks that are going to come because you are going to absolutely get hammered for telling the truth about what words mean.
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Q: Now, why was he elected?
A: Because God allowed it.
We need to seek God. We need to encourage others to seek God. We need to pray for our gov’t. We need to plead with God for our friends and families and strangers.
This President was quite clear on his agenda for those who were listening. He was quite soothing for those who were dreaming.
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No, Mumsee, maybe we’re just getting what we deserve. America has turned it’s back on God for years, why would we not think that he would allow us to suffer the consequences for our decisions. Just as ancient Israel was punished for her idolatry, perhaps America is being punished for our many idolatries: greed, abortion, slavery, child abuse, pornography – the list is endless.
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I am fully convinced we are reaping what we sowed. But there is always time for individuals to come to Him. Until He calls it over. In my estimation, America will soon be like all of the other nations and China or whatever will be in charge. But God is in charge of that and He will not forsake us.
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I was talking with one of the bankruptcy lawyers at my wife’s law firm yesterday evening and we got to talking about what would happen if the United States had to declare bankruptcy because of all the spending and he said that there is already modeling going on because of the amount of currency bonds that China owns. He said that most likely first we will see the Middle East detach from using the dollar for oil prices (already in the works) and that sometime in the next 3-5 years when it will be proven that the stimulus hasn’t worked and that we aren’t creating enough private sector jobs to pay for all the government programs that it is very likely that the Chinese will force a sale of bonds and if the U.S. can’t come through with hard currency (in some other currency than dollar) that the U.S. would be taken to bankruptcy court by the Chinese.
I only say this in response to #4 and the whole “China or whatever will be in charge”. You don’t know just how accurate you could be and how close we are as a country to being in the same position as Iceland. Spending our way into oblivion.
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So let me see, if I choose to park my car incorrectly the fine I get is not a fine but a tax.
And we can continue.
You are correct, however, compared to the imprecision which many conservatives use words, Obama is extremely careful. Which of course means if you are a careful user of language, you can actually understand what he says.
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ItsAboutFreedom popst 5,
when the US economy was 50% of the worlds GDP (say at the Bretton Woods ocnference) the dollar made a great deal of sense as the worlds reserve curncy.
At this point the US is perhaps 25% of twods GDP and by necessity this will slip lower as China and India raise their standard of living.
Already the European Union is a larger econoy than the US and mostly operates under the Euro.
So the era of the US dollar as the reserve currency clearly has an end coming.
The real question of course is when the US takes its place as another country, and not the preeminent country, how will the US adapt?
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I agree that God has allowed this to happen.I have always been told that when you are at the bottom, the only direction to look is up. I think that is what God is forcing America to do. We have locked him out of our schools, our politics and our lives. We will be forced to look to Him to clean up the mess America has made. God is trying to get our attention.
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Whether or not America remains a power or not is irrelevant though. It is what the individual does about Christ.
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ken blackwell,
of course when you say there is no human right that homosexuals do not have in this country, I am assuming then that marriage is not in your opinion a human right.
Now that is indeed a reasonable and supportable position, but if you downgrade the importance of marriage like this be aware that the side effects of your down grading marriage then are not in your province to complain about.
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ken blaskweel,
much of your argument for maintaing the restrictions on homosexuals seem to have been the same argument against civil rights in the 60s and womens rights in the 70s and 80s.
It is fun to hear the same refrain over and over.
Particularly when the historical perspective is that the outocme will in all cases be the saem.
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I’m not seeing your points to Mr. Blackwell (that’s Blackwell with a “C” not blaskweel) so maybe you could show where you are taking your comments from in posts #10 and 11 please?
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Perhaps there is no God and we are on our own to make the best of the only life we have.
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“So let me see, if I choose to park my car incorrectly the fine I get is not a fine but a tax.”
That is absolutely correct. Traffic fines are merely ways to fund the government coffers so that they can build and repairs roads and bridges, etc. so that YOU can driver YOUR car on them. If there were no “fines” then some other tax would simply be increased to pay for these things.
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Also Musing I corrected some of your mis-translation of Medicare surplus in the “Insurers Weigh In” thread.
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If the government says I have to pee every 5 minutes or else I have to pay $5 is that a fine or tax? I say who cares — it seems obvious the government is overstepping its bounds.
So goes Musings brain.
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ItsAboutFreedom post 12,
the quote which begins this portion of the discussion is:
“There is no human right properly understood that gays and lesbians have not had in this country”
and the rest of my comments lead from this.
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mommy post 14,
so fines are not costs I incur if I break the law, but are actually taxes.
Very good, mommy. I suggest you try this on the IRS when you knowlingly fail to pay a portion of your income tax.
It is nice that Obama speaks with clear meaning to his words, it would appear that as mommy demonstrates, conserrvatives do not seem to.
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normp post 16,
fo4r the government to be overstepping its bound requjires that eiother:
1) the legislation not be passed by an appropriate authority, for the Federal government generally congress
or
2) that it violate the constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court
Now I suspect that no court would give you trouble over pee breaks, although the might be concerned at where you pee.
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Musing,
Each level of government needs a certain amount of money to function and they have a variety of ways of getting it. Some are taxes, others are couched as “fines.” Call them what you want – they are all funding the government. If I were to stoop to your level of personal attack, I’d be tempted to say, “Gee, just like a liberal to try to call something other than what it really is.”
Reminds me of the old joke, “If you call a horse’s tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have?”
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So basically you are saying that marriage is a right? Would that be marriage as defined by the Defense of Marriage Act (which I am assuming since you always argue for the government law)? If so, are you suggesting that this law would need to be repealed in order for homosexuals to serve in the military? If that is true then it is a lot more than “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” which could simply be repealed by another executive order.
If we are defining marriage as defined by the Bible, then we would have to repeal the Bible and I don’t see that happening any time soon. Unless of course you know something else that President Obama is going to attack once he has health care on its way to government takeover.
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It could be thousands of dollars per family, the IRS will collect it, but it is not a tax. It just looks like one.
It not only looks like one, it is one. And as such, it is a clear betrayal of one of Obama’s oft repeated refrains: if you make under 250k a year, you will not see your taxes increase one dime.
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mommy post 20,
you are of course correct, all governments need revenues.
But fines are penalties imposed if you break the law. If you choose not to break the law, the fine is not imposed.
By contrast, taxes are not penalties imposed by breaking the law, but are applied as part of governmental revenue generation.
Now you are correct, fines may be used to correct defficiencies cause by your neglect to comply with the law. But that still does not make them taxes.
And you can always avoid fines by scrupulously following the law.
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ItsAboutFreedom post 21,
from a civil law perspective marriage most certainly is a right.
This was of course tested during the era of Jim Crow under miscegenation laws. The supreme court overthrew these laws, although techically such laws were on the books of certain states, although not enforced, until relatively recently.
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DJ post 22,
ah the continuing injured model because you do not want to have health insruance.
We have discussed this before, and not having helath insurance is both irresponsible and places a potential burden on society: hence the mandate. It is in this way analogous to car insurance. And yes, there are options to avoiud health insurance if you can truyly demonstrate that you will never place a health care burden on the US.
Further, I suggest your concern must be taken with a grain of salt: it is well established that it will be effectively impossible to ensure coverage for preexisitng conditions unless a health mandate is included.
The real issue of course is the size and form of the subsidy for those who may have trouble paying the bill. This continues to be a see saw, and htose who complain about both cost and subsidies are being a bit disingenuous, but it looks like the winds are blowing towards larger subsidies which should largely address this concern.
But seriously now, if the entire extra costs were borne by taxes on those earning over $250K (effectively HR 3200) are you seriously arguing that you would not still be complaining?
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ItsAboutFreedom post 21,
so you are arguing that DOMA actually matches our posited positon on human rights?
NO, I am against DOMA and I am reasonably confident that it will either be found unconstitutional or will be repealed.
I am actually betting on the former.
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ItsAboutFreedom post 21,
buyt when you say:
“If we are defining marriage as defined by the Bible, ”
I merely note that marriage as we are discussing it is a civil status, not a religious status. And it would seem that the first amendment would preclude us from imposing a religiously driven view of marriage: hence my belief that DOMA will be found unconsitutional.
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“of course when you say there is no human right that homosexuals do not have in this country, I am assuming then that marriage is not in your opinion a human right.”
It certainly isn’t listed in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. It is an institution and a social arrangement whose benefits governments find important enough to protect, but to classify entering into marriage as a basic human right is to debase the language. Human rights are those intrinsic, unalienable rights that are recognized and protected from the coercive powers of government. Family Law, insofar as it involves the reach of government, involves our fundamental human rights, but to assert that we have an inalienable right to marry makes no mmore sense than to assert we have such a right to be a parent or a niece or a cousin, regardless of biology or social circumstances.
But that is irrelevant. Homosexuals have the exact same opportunity to marry as any other person in this country, under the same requirements.
Ending the Do not ask, Do not tell policy (which is an executive order, not a federal law) does not alter the relevant laws which prohibit homosexuals from serving in the military. DNADNT was a compromise offered by Pres Clinton that directs the military to ignore the Uniform Code of Military Justice and federal law enacted by Congress unless the violation is especially flagrant, sort of a signing statement on steroids.
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Unfortunately Musing I agree with Ken in post #28. Marriage cannot be a right, it is not an individual right and I cannot see how you can argue that it is. He is also correct on the DNADNT policy as it was a compromise to go around the federal law and the UCMJ. So, if you want homosexual marriage to be a right it would seem that you are going to have convince President Obama to repeal the Bible since the Bible in our country was in the past what we based our social arrangements around. The constant arguing and comparing to Jim Crow laws doesn’t cut it for me. Homosexuals choose their sexual orientation. You can’t choose whether to be born black or not.
To me (once again my personal opinion) to compare a sexual choice to being born white, black, yellow or red is at best a real push. I choose to have a heterosexual relationship just as somebody CHOOSES to have a homosexual relationship. Just as there are social consequences with my choice there are social consequences to a homosexual’s choice.
To try and compare homosexuality with the civil rights movement demeans the civil rights movement and everything that it entailed and continues to do great in our country. Black people are born that way, they didn’t choose to be black.
Please try and enlighten me on where I am missing something here because I just can’t see the stretch from choice to how you were born.
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if one believes in the God of the Bible, one cannot accept the word marriage to be applied to homosexual unions
if we are talking about the civil status, not how it all looks in the eye of God, let’s call it civil union
where is the problem?
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ken 28,
ah but as I noted with the miscegenation argument, the courts have already opened marriage as a civil right.
Now it is worth noting that all the present activity is occurring at the state level, which is not governed by the bill of rights.
However, as the granting of marriage as a civil right is increasilgy granted by a number of states, this will make it increasingly diufficult for the other states to maintin their restrictions.
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reader post 30,
now your argument may be correct for reliigous marriage, but we are talking civil marriage. Marriage as commonly understood is a civil institution which can not be constrained by religious laws.
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ItsAboutFreedom post 29,
now when you say:
“Unfortunately Musing I agree with Ken in post #28. Marriage cannot be a right, it is not an individual right and I cannot see how you can argue that it is.”
I suggest that increasingly the courts are disagreeing with you.
And the state constitutions are interpreted by the State Supreme Courts, not you or ken.
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“It certainly isn’t listed in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.”
I’d like to take this opportunity to say that, as I understand it, that shouldn’t make a difference to whether it’s a right or not. The Constitution grants the government the authority to do nothing except what it states government can do. It does not say that the government can do anything except what it says government can’t do. See the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.
That said, I think marriage is hardly a “right” that homosexuals are being “denied.” They could get married (to a member of the opposite sex), just like anyone else. I don’t see why they want to be married to each other anyway. Enlighten me: what benefits does the state give married couples?
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TJS Catlover post 34,
th ediscussion of the tenth ammendment is becoming an increasingly interesting discussion among conservatives.
Among the rest of the country, the commerce clause and its interpretation by the Supreme Court is perhaps the more useful legal interpretation.
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TJ Catlover post 34,
when you say:
“what benefits does the state give married couples?”
let me think:
1) p[roperty rights
2) medical visitation rights
3) tax benefits
Do I need to continue?
and as such, I suggest equla protection clauses are also possibly appropriate here.
Suffice it to say, state courts are increasingly finding that marriage among homosexuals is indeed a protected civil right.
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Property rights? You mean like property going to a spouse upon death? I don’t really see a problem with having that for homosexual people. But I thought wills took care of that already.
Medical visitation rights? I didn’t think that was denied to homosexuals. If it is, I’m thinking that could also be given to them. You don’t need marriage for that.
I know next to nothing about taxes, so someone else is going to have to explain why married couples get tax benefits.
But marriage? Why? I’ve always seen marriage as a bond before God. Few homosexual people claim to worship a god who requires such a bond.
I think what they really want is to be accepted as normal. That is something they cannot have. It would take the Thought Police.
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TJS Catlover post 37,
wh indeed yes!
Yes wills take care of it, but married people do not need wills and even with wills, marriage gives the spoouse increased rights.
so we seem to have agreed on one aspect where the government does provide rights to married people which are denied hoomosexuals.
You are not aware of the reduced tax rate for married people with one person working?
As your examples actually show, there are a number of legal advantages granted to married people. Homosexueals would appear to be denied these rights.
Of course we could remove these rights form married people …
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TJS Catl;over post 37,
now normal is an interesting term with potentially many meanings.
but right now, I suggest all they want is legal equality. As your dicussion actualy addresses these problems, observationally they do not have full legal rights now.
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Wow, what an insightful post Ken Blackwell. Dead on!
“We need to do a lot more translating these days. President Obama is a practiced wordsmith. His words are carefully constructed. Not all Americans have yet learned to interpret what those words mean.”
How true!
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#3
What is a “BOYGRANDMOTHER?”
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Thank you Mr. Blackwell! You speak my mind better than I can.
(Random, I wondered too.)
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Musing: I’m going to admit that my experience fails me. I’ve never died, or had a spouse die, or had trouble visiting anyone in a hospital, or even been married in the first place. (BTW, I’ve referred to a “family” before: I was talking about my parents, siblings, etc.)
So I can’t really say for sure what benefits married couples get, and what would be appropriate to give to homosexuals. As I’ve seen the issues you presented described before, I don’t see that it would be a problem to give those benefits to homosexuals. But perhaps people were misleading me.
I can say that homosexuals’ desire to be completely accepted as just as admirable and normal as heterosexuals can’t happen, nor do I want it to. It’s their choice to live a deviant lifestyle. They can and should be protected from abuse, (just like anyone else: i.e. not with special privileges). As I said, it would take something like the Orwellian Thought Police to do more.
I can also say that, unless I have been the victim of a massive cover-up, they aren’t denied basic rights: just maybe trivial ones. The whole “Gay Rights” issue, the marching, screaming, etc. and the equating of the issue with that of black people is way over the top.
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The actual thread: I too think this thread was very apt. People need to learn to hear what is really meant by these speeches.
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One of the problems here, as I’ve frequently pointed out, is the use of emblems, similar to stereotyping, where an extreme member of a group is offered as representative of the group.
Conservative Christians are very sensitive when it happens to them, but perfectly willing to slop the paint all over groups they don’t like.
I pointed out that some Puritans hanged some Quakers. Joel Mark got very huffy, arguing that these extremists were not typical of the Puritans as a whole.
Perhaps so. Yet he and you are perfectly willing to choose homosexuals who engage in extreme behavior and portray them as typical of the homosexual community. For whatever reason, long before my daughter’s domestic relationship with another woman, I have known quite a few homosexual people. Most were ordinary people living ordinary lives and mostly “passing” in ways their co-workers and family members had no idea.
In the last couple of decades these ordinary people are the ones who have really “come out of the closet” and are being accepted in ordinary society by everyday people. The homo-hysteric people here with the wild religious ranting are really the ones who will be creeping into the closet.
I don’t know of any of my family members who were victims of the holocaust, but some were victims of Russian pogroms. I’ve only read the Diary of Anne Frank; I never met her or any of her family. Much as you want to posture as a persecuted religious minority, you are no Anne Franks.
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However, it is entirely possible as things collapse that evangelical Christianity will come to be regarded as the “deviant lifestyle.” Carelessly calling names and affixing labels is a dangerous hobby.
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This wonderfully written article makes me shudder! *shudder*
Thanks World!
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Blackwell is crying into a hurricain as the world changes. His apparent assertion that marriage is not a right is, I suggest, orhtogonal to America as we no it today.
But keep yelling into that hurricaine!
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Is the word “deviant” really “labelling” or “calling names”?…how does homosexual behavior not deviate from the witheringly obvious norm?
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and the tongue-in-cheek “threat” at 46. hints at exactly what we conservative Christians have been talking about when we’ve cried “persecution”… bu like the boy who cried “wolf”….
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Gudmundsson post 49/50,
but of course homosexual behavior is not witheringly obviously outside the norm.
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Musing: But it is. Homosexuals comprise what, 4% of the population?
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Random: If you have a problem with a stereotype, point it out.
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TJS Catlover post 52,
numbers vary but I typically use the number of 10%.
Given, however, the wide distribution of human behavior, arguing that homosexuality is witheringly outside the norm, is quite simply not true. The Kinsey materials are perhps interesting here.
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TJS Catlover,
so one considers the issue of human rights based on their percentage in the population?
I sense you need to be careful if you seriously support this model: as Robespierre discovered, the committee often comes back to eat its own.
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Musing: the “norm” is defined as heterosexual in both Christian and evolutionary worldviews, for differing reasons. Also, we can observationally conclude that heterosexuality is the norm: homosexual behavior is comparatively rare, whether it is due to genes or choice.
I never mentioned human rights in conjunction with “deviant.” That is a textbook example of putting words in my mouth. I was just pointing out that “deviant” is appropriate. What you do with the information that homosexual behavior is “deviant” is, I suppose, largely up to you. You won’t catch me arguing that because they’re a minority, they should be denied human rights.
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TJS Catlover post 56,
it may or may not be the norm in Christinaity.
but you have no data to show that it is not the norm in evolutionary worldviews. Indeed the scientific data includes many exmaples of homosexual behavior in the mamalian kingdom.
So I suggest your norm argument is arguably false on its face unless you can provide more data.
Ah so based on your correcting comment it would seem you do support:
1) homosecxual marriages
2) repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell
My apologies here.
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TJS Catlover,
perhaps it is worth noting that inter racial couples are not very common, and hence not the norm by your standards. Does that mean they should be denied marriage rights? Ostensibly the Supreme Court addressed this quite a while ago but:
Inter Racial Couple denied marriage license
Now by your logic this type of marriager is not common and therefore as you entered the word deviant. And it follows based on your comment that restricting it should be appropriate.
And indeed others agree.
Now seriously are you going to argue that because interracial couples like this are unusual, and therefore not the norm, and that this couple should be denied a marriage license?
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Musing: I suppose I should elaborate: in the Christian worldview, everyone is a sinner and therefore constantly tempted to sin. Therefore, homosexual temptations might be described as the “norm” in that it is another ubiquitous sinful temptation. However. God created us to be heterosexual.
In the evolutionary worldview, homosexuality is a fluke. Natural selection “demands” propagation of the species.
Again, I said nothing about rights. Just that Gudmundsson was correct. I do not approve of homosexual marriages: what I said was that the issues you raised could and should be addressed without marriage. If, then, they are addressed outside of marriage, homosexuals should not need it anyway, and I don’t see why they’d want it.
As for DADT, I wonder why they feel the need to have it repealed. No one said homosexuals couldn’t or shouldn’t serve. They absolutely must have sex with each other in the context of the military? I’d think that was a private thing. I don’t really think heterosexual people shoudl be doing that either.
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TJS CAtlover post 59,
I already pointed out and have posted links to demonstrations of homosexuality in nature: your evolutionary world view argument is therefore false.
You asserted that since homosexuals were about 4% in your model they were not the norm.
I present an example of an inter racial couple. Inter-racial couples are small numbers, and therefore by your logic also out side the norm.
Your numerical argument is the same for both cases.
It would seem that there is a problem with your numerical argument OR your numerical argument is seriously incomplete.
Your move. You arguement that the homosexual issues could be addressed outside of marriage, I suggest also hold for inter-racial marriages (be careful here there is a logical issue you must surmount to make the simlistic argument).
And of course you argument has been addressed in this country for some time and been found seriously wanting.
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TJS Catlover,
but for completeness, should this inter-racial couple be allowed to get a marriage license?
Why?
And your response?
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Race has nothing to do with it, Musing. It’s still a man and a woman: skin color is next to meaningless, and is meaningless on anything important. I’m sure marriages between people with blue eyes are also a small percentage.
Notice I never said that being a small percentage was bad. I have other reasons, (namely and most importantly God said so), for believing homosexuality to be a sin.
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The red herrings are piling up here. Normal sexuality, human or otherwise, totally apart from anybody’s ideological predilections, is observably heterosexual. It’s hard to imagine this is even under discussion. All it takes is a middle-school-level grasp of human anatomy and physiology to get this. How on earth could anyone suggest homosexual behavior is anything other than deviant?
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If MUSING thinks the president is saying what he really means “speaking clearly”, then there is no reason to have a discussion with him. It’s just a circular discussion. MUSING says we keep saying the same things and we hear MUSING saying the same things. He won’t hear until his ears are opened. MUSING can’t hear the Doublespeak by Obama. Obama is NOT SAYING exactly what he means. (That last sentence says exactly what I mean.)
“3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NIV
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TJS Catlover post 62,
but of course just because you argue that the racial analogy does not have anything to do with it, does not mean that the racial analogy does not hold.
You based your argument apparenlty on the concept of “norm”.
This couple is clearly not the “norm”.
If your argument was not about the “norm” then enterin g this into the discussion woullld seem dilatory,.
And I note you did not answert on whether this couple should be allowed to marry. I suggest much as your siulence on oral contraception until pushed, this pretty much says it all.
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gummundson p[ost 63,
when you say:
“The red herrings are piling up here. Normal sexuality, human or otherwise, totally apart from anybody’s ideological predilections, is observably heterosexual.”
based on the Kinsey studies, I suggest you are show to be in error and your case is refuted. Further, as noted in earlier posts both bonobos and sheep show homosexual behavior.
In short the research and the data does not support your position.
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news2me,
the difference being I suggest, that topse with opposing ideas do not seem to be able to refute my arguments based on the data.
We have seen this clearly with gudmundsson. We have seen this in the health debate.
The strong social conservative position is a minority position in this country. They represent in many cases ideas whose time has long gone, with the lack of respect for homosexuals being one of them.
We are seeing the present administration slowly over turning the social conservative agenda which was fitfully supported for the last eight years under the bush administration, and no poorly formed and unsupported arguments are going to stop that.
If the social conservatives hope to make any progress then rather than providing the same old hackneyed discussion, they are going to have to reformulate thier argument in a form wich is supported by data and which does recognize the present situation.
Nah, never happen.
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But seriously now, if the entire extra costs were borne by taxes on those earning over $250K (effectively HR 3200) are you seriously arguing that you would not still be complaining?
Musing #25,
As long as there are no mandates forcing people to purchase (or hidden penalties if they don’t), no tax on health benefits for people earning under 250k, and the government subsidies of various sorts specifically exclude abortion, no I wouldn’t be complaining–or certainly not as much. I do not support a single payer system in general, but some kind of public option might not be a bad thing for the poor or those on the margin.
I was somewhat comfortable supporting Obama’s ideas regarding healthcare reform during the campaign , because I thought his reforms would be less restrictive than McCain’s. I thought McCain would both tax everyone’s health benefits, and mandate the purchase of an insurance product, and end up being the most regressive. I may have been wrong about that. Obama specifically opposed BOTH of those things. The current health reforms seem to be over-reaching to me. But it’s not a done deal yet.
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Oh, and any claims that NOT purchasing an insurance product is somehow “irresponsible”, is just complete hooey. I pay my healthcare costs. That’s REAL responsibility.
If you want to talk about real irresponsibility, lets talk about hookup bars, prostitution, sex among teens, gay sex —indiscriminate sex of all kinds that is more likely to result in stds, AIDS, pregnancy, abortions, broken lives, and untold millions of dollars in healthcare costs. How about taxing those people for REAL irresponsibility that has an influence on healthcare costs. Irresponsible sex is an easy one, and is just one issue that pops to mind, but I have to run for now. (And by the way, I DON’T advocate taxing those people; it was a rhetorical statement.)
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When I lived in Russia I had the opportunity to speak with a couple of people who were in their 80’s and 90’s. They remembered when Lenin came to power. People worshipped Lenin, he was their Savior. He was going to deliver them from all the hateful money changers and industrialists giving them unions and social equality. There would be no “have’s” and “have not’s”, everybody would be equal and there would finally be justice in the world. These people will tell you that as long as Lenin was alive that there was a lot of that happening. They will also tell you that instead of having lots of newspapers they had one “national” newspaper called Pravda meaning Truth. They will also tell you that the Lenin led leadership team which contained many people who the public never knew about (we call them czars today in our American political system) were very radical and these were the people that scared them the most. They will tell you that after WWI, many of the younger people started disappearing off the streets, especially those who questioned the Marxist leaders. The most intelligent people were forced into service to the country and they were not allowed to choose where they went to work. In the later Lenin years, it became obvious that the all important state would be the one to decide what career you would go into. Then came Stalin. Stalin started out as a young idealist in the Lenin camp but he had a mean streak and when he came into power that mean streak resulted in millions of Russian citizens being shipped off to gulags and loosing their lives.
So just keep supporting Obama. He reminds me very much of what I have read and heard of Lenin. He also is a wonderful speaker, a great family man and from outward appearances a very charismatic figure able to speak and draw people of all walks of life into his fold. But who surrounds Obama? Who are the radical Marxist idealogues who surround him? Who is bank rolling him? We know who was bank rolling Lenin….it was people who knew that in their country they could never bring about the revolutionary change they could manipulate into another country and control their industries through a Lenin type figure. The people who enriched themselves on the commoners backs when the great socialist revolution came around never lived in Russia, they didn’t have to. In return for bringing Lenin to power they were awarded millions of dollars (in Russian ruble of course) and never a dime dropped into the Russian economy, always taking never giving.
That is what you are supporting. It is not Obama, he is just a very intelligent idealogue who the money men have brought to power so they could bring a revolution to America and take down her largest industries for self gain. It is not Obama we must be afraid of, it is the people behind Obama. So keep supporting health care, keep supporting cap and trade, keep supporting card check and all the other wonderful “changes” Obama wants to bring to our country. When you look around and realize the utopia you thought you were ushering in is a nightmare don’t blame me. The Russians who are leaving our shores (remember I still speak Russian just as well as them and I am a part of the Russian social circles) tells a lot more than what is happening. They voted for “anybody but Obama” during the election and when Obama got elected they began preparing their families to leave our shores with tears in their eyes. Russian families are leaving every day. They are leaving for countries like Poland, Bulgaria, and other former Russian colonies that have some semblance of freedom. They are leaving not because they are worried about Obama but because they love freedom and they know what follows Obama will be worse because the men that are bank rolling Obama won’t stop until they have sucked America dry of every bit of resource they can.
And you will wake up just like us conservatives and Christians you ridicule and you will realize that you supported this. You supported giving a government rule and reign over your life for a mere pittance….some free health care, some trees that get saved, for wars that won’t be fought…..and maybe then like us conservatives and Christians you will realize that you gave away freedom for what? For some handouts from a government that is supported by people who hate you also? For some handouts from a government because you hate the people who worked hard and achieved success and instead of realizing that you once could work hard and achieve success also, you rolled over and told the government to take from them and give it to you.
I hope you find it is worth it for your children to grow up in a totalitarian society ruled by iron fisted rulers who will not let a single voice of opposition grow.
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Well said, ItsAboutFreedom. I don’t speak Russian (does nyet count?) and I am not as familiar with history as I ought to be but you pretty well summed up what I see with the whole thing.
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In WV I posted pretty much the same thing from a conversation with some Russian friends last night who are immigrating from here to Poland. When the Russians are leaving it has to make you wonder, they are some of the most hardy people I have ever known. I have great admiration for their ability to cope with hardship.
And DA, nyet counts.
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Musing is tragically a-musing me. Kinsey’s methodological shortcomings are well-documented, and need not be repeated here. Musing should do some more complete research on that incomplete research.
Beyond that, I don’t need penguins to tell me what is normal. My wife and I have children; I’m familiar enough with the equipment each of us has to be able to tell what normal sex is. Even a farmer knows the difference between a bull and a cow; a plumber between a male fitting and a female; an electrician between a female outlet and a male plug. This is not rocket science. Advanced studies in demographics and/or animal behavior are not needed. The simple statement was that homosexual behavior deviates from the norm; by definition, it is deviant. I can’t for the life of me imagine why that statement is offensive.
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Excuse me. Musing referred to sheep and bonobos, not penguins. I have heard people point out that some penguins have also been observed to exhibit homosexual behavior from time to time.
But so what? Penguins, sheep, bonobos, and humans all exhibit heterosexual behavior as the norm. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t last long as species. Homosexual behavior is is a deviation from the norm in any species. Again, not rocket science.
Not a serious point, but still amusing: the fact that my dog sometimes humps my daughter’s oversized Eeyore doll doesn’t prove that dog-donkey sex is just as normal as regular dog sex; it just proves that he needs to get out and run a little more.
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Gudmundsson – don’t worry too much about Musing, he is delusional in that he thinks he is way more intelligent than anybody else on this site. He is also an Obamabot – wind him up and watch him rant about our wonderful leader and how everything he does is so good.
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Musing
Merely expressing your disagreement with the assertions of another neither disproves their assertions nor proves your counter-assertions. You make vague references to examples of homosexual behavior in the mammalian kingdom and to the Kinsey reports. So what? That there may be examples of such behavior does not establish it as a “norm” — either culturally or statistically. As far as evolution goes, put homosexual men on one island and homosexual women on a separate island, and let’s see how effectively they propagate the species without intervention.
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“It could be thousands of dollars per family, the IRS will collect it, but it is not a tax.”
So let me see, if I choose to park my car incorrectly the fine I get is not a fine but a tax.
You mean that money you pay to the IRS for parking in a red zone? That fine?
I guess I can’t speak for where you live, but where I live, parking fines are collected by the city, the county, the public university, etc., but never by the IRS.
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Sorry, I accidentally bolded instead of blockquoted. And not only that, I forgot to close the bolding at the end of Musing’s sentence. Oh well, you get the gist, I’m sure. This site really needs an edit feature though.
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67..Musing. .”The strong social conservative position is a minority position in this country. They represent in many cases ideas whose time has long gone, with the lack of respect for homosexuals being one of them.”
Where, oh where do you get your information? Didn’t you tell me that only 20% of the population is in Sarah Palin’s corner? You haven’t answered that one yet.
Where do you get that social conservatism is a minority position? According to a Washington Post poll; http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/23/ST2008062300818.html 92% of Americans believe in GOD and included is one in five atheists do too. Most Social Conservatives have high moral principles and believe in GOD. This is a far cry from a minority. …
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Oh, before I forget; homosexuality is a ‘learned trait.’ Just looking at the gay pride parades, that seem to be a magnet for them; it appears it is a lifestyle choice, not a birthed-condition. It’s just another anchor into a sexual deviate world of sexual permissiveness. . . ..Oh, I am sure there are some ‘real’ homosexuals out there; cross-pollinated-morphed-DNA-cell-split polymorphisms with a small hypothalamus gland, but unless everyone was sucking the liquid from a DDT canister, there really can’t be that many.
I am afraid that the military will ‘opt-out’ for a bunk-mate mentality in our modern military. Why do you think the policy of ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ was instituted? For the straights?
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