Understanding the “worship wars”
A recent Religion News Service dispatch caught my attention. Under the headline “Missouri Synod Leaders Declare Worship Wars ‘Sinful’” came an article (subscription required) announcing the conservative Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod’s eight-page “Theses on Worship.” The document was adopted unanimously in September by the denomination’s Council of Presidents, which includes its top officials and leaders of its 35 regional districts.
The Theses on Worship took two years to complete, and—according to the RNS report—“describes worship as a command of God but says the Scriptures and doctrinal statements permit ‘considerable freedom’ in choosing the rites and ceremonies used for worship.”
The document itself declares: “The polarization that is affecting the church concerning the issue of forms, rites and ceremonies is sinful and hinders the proclamation of the gospel.”
True enough. These intramural conflicts consume a lot of energy, and to the outside world they can often appear to be irrelevant to the point of silliness. Jesus Himself, near the end of his earthly ministry and during one of his most impassioned and emotional moments, prayed that we, his followers, would “be one,” as he was indeed one with God. Elsewhere in Scripture, we read that it is “good and pleasant” for believers to “dwell in unity.”
But it is important to be clear about one point: A dwelling of unity that is not built on a foundation of truth is nothing more than a house of straw that will blow over with the first strong wind. That’s why it’s important that we realize that many of us on the “traditional” side of the so-called “worship wars” understand that much more is at stake than what style of music we’ll sing on Sunday morning. The worship wars, properly understood, are not about taste, but about theology—and about protecting the core doctrines of the faith.
To get a glimpse into what I mean, consider how modern worship songs make their way into contemporary worship services. The songs generally are first heard and popularized on contemporary Christian radio stations. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, except that survey after survey shows that at least a third of Christian radio listeners are not Christians. They are overwhelmingly female, and they are mostly in their middle 30s. Again, nothing wrong with any of that; I’m glad there is a radio station for these people.
But what happens next? The popular songs are then promoted relentlessly to “worship leaders,” with sheet music and instrumental tracks pushed in a steady stream of catalogues and advertisements in magazines with titles like Worship Leader. Are the songs theologically solid? Do they teach the core doctrines of the Christian faith, or the specific distinctives of your denomination? Are they the highest and best our generation has to contribute to the great musical tradition of the church? But none of that seems to matter: If they’re a hit on Christian radio this week, they get performed in church the next.
Contrast that to the way music has historically been chosen for the church. The process has involved some of the greatest theologians and musicologists of our denominations who carefully deliberate matters of theology and discipleship. They ask: Does this song reflect our beliefs? Does this song deepen our understanding of poorly understood doctrines? Does this song unite old and young, black and white, or is it so stylistically specific that its attempt to be “relevant” to some alienates everyone else?
Certainly there are limitations to the slow-changing, sometimes bureaucratic way new music has historically made its way into Psalters and hymnals. And I want to be clear that I’m not advocating tradition for tradition’s sake. But let’s get to the point: Christianity is a religion based on history and tradition. The Resurrection is not an idea; it was an historical event. Jesus was not just a great teacher; He was God Incarnate. He chose to reveal Himself to us in history. That’s why when we throw over the highest and best traditions and practices of our faith in the never-ending pursuit of what’s new, what’s relevant, what’s “hip” or “cool,” we inadvertently but no less certainly erode core doctrines of the faith. We say to ourselves and to our children: History doesn’t matter. The testimony of the faithful men and women who came before us doesn’t matter. The highest and best thinking of our greatest minds—well, what was so great about them anyway?
This is cultural arrogance of the worst kind. And, as everyone from the author of Hebrews to George Orwell has made clear, when we cut ourselves off from the lessons of history, we quickly become victims of the worst kinds of intellectual and spiritual fascism.
So, are the “worship wars” unfortunate? Most certainly. But let us not shrink from these battles for the sake of a false and temporary “unity.” Let us instead use them as an opportunity to come to agreement not about how we can be relevant to the culture, but rather about how we can bring what is permanent and eternal to a culture otherwise headed for the trash-bin of history.

















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back to top349 Comments to “Understanding the “worship wars””
“One verse three times…” Chas
Me too!
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/n/oncetoev.htm
I know it’s a misuse of the hymn, but there is still truth in it’s application.
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But let’s get to the point: Christianity is a religion based on history and tradition.
Uh……no.
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I really am tired of the dumbing down of church music. All my adult life, part of what has attracted me to a specific church has been its music . . . and after a few years in attendance, the music has begun to drift, until eventually it’s horrid. We’re about halfway down the slide now, in my current church. Most of the music is still fairly good, but we aren’t using many hymns (and rarely the best of the hymns), and some is downright awful.
One of the worst things to me about the new music is that very lack of tradition. We sing a song maybe five times over the course of a year, and then never sing it again. And most of them aren’t really worth singing anyway–and for me personally that tends to mean I no longer sing during the week, in my own home, because music no longer runs through my mind as it did when we sang the same songs for two hundred years or more, and not just for six months to a year. Sometimes I read through the newer songs looking for theology, and occasionally it’s there. But usually it doesn’t get any deeper than “I love you” and “You’re special to me,” and sometimes it looks like nothing more than a sappy, poorly written love song. And yet somehow we consider it “worship.” Can’t we give God better than this? Even before Jesus came, He demanded the best. Now that He has given us His very best, His Son, why would we even consider giving Him second-rate nonsense?
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Thanks, Stubob!
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Gregorian Chants
The Old Rugged Cross
How Great is Our God
Do they not all give glory to God?
“Come let us worship and bow down…” to our God, not to style.
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We really need to look at the cult of new and novel across the church, not just in music. Walk into a Christian bookstore. It is all about marketing and money. If you actually read most of the stuff, what isn’t garbage is re-packaged classics…John of the Cross, Augustine, etc….
We must fight the idea that “new=good.” It doesn’t necessarily mean bad, either, but that isn’t an issue for 90% of us it seems.
Christianity is a historic, historically-based religion. To say it’s not is to create a new religion. Read some J. Gresham Machen to get the details. (yeah, probably won’t find that one in your local Christian bookstore, either.)
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Pardon my own ignorance, but I wasn’t sure offhand which group was meant “Missouri Synod” and “the conservative denomination.” I had to click the link to find out the article was referring to the Lutheran church. I hope WORLD understands that some readers belong to unaffiliated, independent, non-denominational churches, and and should write articles be more clear for those of us who aren’t up on things in the denominational world.
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Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
James 1
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BTW, I get the writer’s point, but I resist this notion that all new music is bad. Contemporary worship leaders from Mark Altrogge to Matt Redman have written Biblically-based praise and worship music with a catchy beat. Some of this music starts out in church and makes its way onto the radio, not only the other way, as the author suggests. I seem to have read somewhere that we should “sing to the LORD a new song.”
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(continued) I’m also not so sure of the historical vetting process described by the author. Which denominations? Lutheran or others? I’m sure the music of Charles Wesley and Isaac Watts was considered “contemporary” in their generation, though that time has passed. Of the 700 hymns written by Watts, how many are generally well known today? Also, as devoted and inspired as he was, Watts confessed to doubts regarding the doctrine of the Trinity.
But to clarfiy, I do agree about these monotonous, repetitious, dumbed-down, romantic love songs to Jesus, as are so common today. But we should be careful with throwing around generalizations.
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Jesus Is Just Alright (Doobie Brothers)
Are the songs theologically solid? Check.
Do they teach the core doctrines of the Christian faith, or the specific distinctives of your denomination? Yes, Check again.
Are they the highest and best our generation has to contribute to the great musical tradition of the church? Checkmate!
The process has involved some of the greatest theologians and musicologists of our denominations who carefully deliberate matters of theology and discipleship.
“More cowbell!” sayeth the Reverend Birkenstock.
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JayFC, good qualifications.
One thing I find frustrating about these conversations on worship is that broad and falsifiable generalizations are rarely challenged.
In the present case, it would be helpful for those who accept the thesis that the evangelical church is overrun with syrupy Jesus-is-my-boyfriend songs pushed upon them by the CCM industry, to provide some examples of songs that meet all the criteria:
1. First published and popularized on Christian radio
2. Marketed aggressively to churches based upon that notoriety.
3. Demonstrably vapid and/or theologically dubious lyrics.
I’m willing to believe there are quite a few such songs. Yet I suspect that in many cases there will commenters defending songs on theological grounds that others detest, or that the true origins of the song are a local church worship context (as per Jay’s Altrogge and Redman examples above).
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JAYFROMCLEVELAND: You are right. We should have noted that we were talking about a Lutheran denomination. It has been added.
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As a married in Lutheran, not born to it, I can add something to this conversation. By the way, I am a Christian first and a Lutheran second.
I grew up in the Methodist church singing some very doctrinally sound hymns. I have since left the Methodist church, but not my love for the hymnody with which I grew up.
As a military wife, I attended the chapel’s general protestant service and sang most of the hymns in the Armed Forces Hymnal I already loved and also I learned some new ones. Again, from other denominations and doctrinally sound. And all very singable arrangements.
When we began to attend a Misouri Synod Lutheran church, one of my biggest frustrations and a huge obstacle to worchip for me was (and sometimes still is) that most of the Lutheran hymns were unfamiliar and (at least in the hymnals I was given to use) very complicated and unsingable arrangements. But they were so doctrinally sound that even some of the familiar ones I was used to the words were changed so as to be more Lutheranized. If it wasn’t expressly corporate in nature and could not be made more corporate by the changing the words then we did not sing it no matter how doctrinally sound. So I was trying to sing hymns that obstructed my worship. It has always been a frustration.
I am not a fan of the Jesus is my boyfriend music that is repetitive and vapid and rampant in many churches today, but neither am I in favor of the exclusion of some very good traditional hymns that have not been suficiently Lutheranized. The LCMS could stand to lighten up just a little. (I think they believe it’s syncretism to sing an unLutheranized version of a non-Lutheran hymn.)
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To those critical of “Jesus is my boyfriend” music, I feel a need to point out that Jesus is actually your husband. Not to defend bad music, but it’s good to remember that this is a love affair.
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CherylD, I understand what you are saying, and I would have been more with you a few years back.
We currently attend a Sovereign Grace Ministries affiliated church (speaking of Mark Altrogge). We’ve been described as the place for Charismatics who want more doctrine and Presbyterians who want more passion. This group is committed to serious gospel centered music, whether old or new. Coming from a long conservative background, I had some doubts when it seemed that God was directing us here when it became clear He had a change for us. I was really quite surprised on our first visit to find that there is indeed contemporary worship music with real meat.
We sing new songs, old hymns with new tunes, old hymns with traditional tunes, and a lot of Psalms-based songs both old and new. The constant is that they magnify the Savior, His work, and His worth. To borrow a concept from I don’t remember who, the focus is much more on “Oh how He loves me” than on “Oh how I love Him”. It’s not “He is wonderful because I think He is” but “He is more wonderful than I can think”.
I said most of that to say this: we have in our church a lady who is about as joyous in Christ as they come, growing in her appreciation for the Cross and in her sanctification–clearly the Holy Spirit dwells in her. But, her background is the polar opposite of ours; she had never been exposed to hymns for worship before she came to our church. The really funny realization between her and my wife–who had quickly developed a close bond in the faith–was that while my wife was struggling with the contemporary stuff and finding it off-putting, this delightful saint was having the same struggle with the traditional hymns.
So yes, we want to avoid being market-driven in our worship, but we don’t want to be artificially restricted. The music is to honor the Creator. Drawing people in is the job of the Spirit.
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#2
Stubob,
Yes, Christianity is based on history and tradition in the sense that it was stated in the post. The history referred to is not church history, but the historical facts of Jesus life, death, and resurrection. And the fact that the teachings of the apostles were incorporated into the Bible doesn’t mean they’re not traditions. Smith’s point is that, unlike something like New Age religion that can borrow from other traditions or make completely new stuff up, Christianity cannot be divorced from its roots in the past, or it ceases to be Christianity.
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Jesus liked making merry, Jews have always enjoyed music. I agree with StuBob. Some of the current songs may be simplistic and seem to just say “I love you, Jesus” but that’s who we worship. It’s about him, not us. We remember the hymns we grew up with and the old music sounds classic and holy, but a lot of those songs aren’t as “deep” as we’d like to think and many of the current songs if you stop to think about them reading only the words are thought provoking, too.
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Jalex, I’m not opposed to new music. I’ve learned several songs in the past decade that are well worth singing. But all the music sung in the church should be “worth singing,” not just some of it. If it doesn’t pass theological muster, don’t sing it. There’s so much great music out there that we don’t need to “settle” for mediocre stuff. And since we’re using it to worship God, we should bring our best.
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I appreciate all kinds of worship music, but do we have to play any of it so loudly. Even an organ can be played too loud.
We usually go to the traditional service. Our worship leader introduces new stuff and sometimes rushes thru the old hymns.
I used to think that repeating a verse in a song 3X was just the new songs. Then I was reminded of an old hymn that repeats a phrase 3X. Oops!
I once had someone tell me that if the organ wasn’t playing in service that it wasn’t worth going to church. She was upset that they chose not to play the organ that day.
DID YOU KNOW–the ORGAN was rejected from the church at first because of the places it was associated with.
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One of the books recommended on worship wars is:
“America’s Worship Wars” by Terry York
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“Putting An End to Worship Wars” (1997) by Elmer L. Towns
Product description from Amazon: “This book explains that there are numerous approaches to worship, all biblically and culturally appropriate. The result is that everyone gains a new appreciation for differing styles within a context of courtesy, selflessness, and a willingness to listen openly to opposing views.”
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“Worship” during congregational gathering on the Lord’s Day, isn’t song only; it’s the period between the Call to Worship and the Benediction, during which time the congregation, at the pastor’s lead, should only act according to Scriptural direction; this includes the content of the singing, which Scripture limits to Psalms. Incidentally, Psalms are the least sung of the various types of song–hymnody, traditional, contemporary–floated in today’s church, but are the only ones anyone would dare call inspired.
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Macrutabaga,
Yes, some people do believe that Scripture limits singing only to Psalms, but the very fact that NT worship used some songs other than Psalms strongly suggests that interpretation is at best something one can hold for his own church, and not insist on for other churches. (My own personal biggest reason for not being interested in attending a church that sings ONLY the Psalms, besides the fact that I’m not convinced biblically, is that I don’t want to attend a church that won’t ever sing of Jesus’ death or resurrection, and limiting oneself to the Psalms certainly means never singing about the resurrection.)
Singing New Testament passages, including those passages that were hymns in the early church, can certainly also be called “inspired,” by the way. But why must singing be limited to what is inspired when the pastor’s sermon, creeds, testimonies, etc. are not so limited? Unless the Bible forbids singing that which isn’t inspired, this is extrabiblical, and again, it limits New Testament Christians from singing about the biggest event in all of history, the resurrection of our Lord Jesus!
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Cheryl D.,
I disagree that NT worship services included anything but Psalms. I also disagree with your implication that the Psalms do not sing of Jesus’ death or resurrection, nor of any other aspect of Christ’s ministry of prophet, priest, or king; they do so frequently and beautifully (and inspiredly–if that’s a word–unlike hymns and extra-biblical songs). I have a feeling you already know this!
New Testament passages are inspired, of course, but not authorized for worship–no strange fire is so authorized. Sermons are specifically authorized in New Testament writing (and were part of OT services, as well). God gave pastors and teachers. I don’t see a problem with creeds in a service as an aspect of the sermon since they may be part of a minister’s opening of the Scriptures to the congregation. And creeds are wonderful as an aspect of church government, etc.
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Macrutabaga describes one application of the Regulative Principle of Worship, which none other than Gary North (!) once described as a “Presbyterian Folk Myth.” This isn’t the place to dissect it — Suffice to say that it was a terrific liberation the day I walked away from it.
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Stubob has joined Gary North in rejecting a principle held by such prominent believers as John Calvin, John Knox, and most Puritans, and articulated in the Westminster Confession. I don’t mind disagreeing with him.
I wonder what it is he thinks I’m in bondage to.
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Macrutabega – just out of curiosity, must these Psalms also be sung a capella?
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While I listen to a wide variety of music and don’t believe that many genres of music are “evil,” unlike what is/was taught at my previous churches…
I believe that there can be a balance between traditional hymns sung in church and some theologically sound, newer ones, such as In Christ Alone. However, regardless of what I listen to out of church, I think music sung in church should not simply appeal to the emotions (as the “Jesus is my boyfriend”) style of weak lyrics does, partly because we should go to church to worship God, not for an “experience.” I may say more on this later, but these are just some of my thoughts on this subject.
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Macrutabega and others, what about this?
Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs…
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I only brought up Gary North because most pro-Regulative Principle people I’ve known have been North fans at some time. His rejection of the Regulative Principle surprised me. That’s all. Well, and I really like that phrase: “Presbyterian folk myth.”
While we’re appealing to authorities instead of making our own arguments, I’ll note that every elder in every NAPARC church vows to subscribe to the Westminster Standards, yet only the RPCNA interpret them as mandating exclusive psalmody. Of course, this doesn’t mean a thing. Neither does claiming kinship with Calvin, Knox, or “most Puritans.”
I don’t know if you’re in bondage or not. Personally, I was completely squashed by the need to get worship “perfect,” and the belief that God would love me more if I worshiped Him more precisely and correctly. I was committed to worshiping in Truth. I had no vision of worshiping in Spirit.
Again, this isn’t really the venue for such a discussion. We could certainly have a rewarding conversation in person, but I’m incapable of disagreeing in print without getting snarky.
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Macrutabaga,
I do believe Christ’s death is mentioned in the Psalms, in a foreshadowing, but am not sure where there’s mention of the resurrection. (Where is it?) But whatever reference there is to Christ is “dim” in a prophetic sort of way and not the fuller understanding of the New Testament. Is one allowed to sing a paraphrase of the Psalms that makes the references to Christ more explicit? But again, this understanding of singing is one view, and not an “absolute” to be put onto others. That everything done in a worship service is to be done to glorify God, and theologically correct, should be an absolute we can all agree on.
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30-The Psalm Singers believe that Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs refer to the three section of the entire book of Psalms from the Olt Testament. We too quickly read our current uderstanding of words into the words used by the bible, instead of looking them up in the concordance and getting a truer meaning.
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In my years as an exclusive Psalmodist, I never felt like missing anything fro mym hymn singing days. And I miss the psalms, now that I am a misery Lutheran.
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Here’s my overall take on this issue (and related ones): It is no better to be “more holy” than God requires than to be “more lenient.” Both focus on man-made laws and not on God.
Someone close to me has recently started attending a family-integrated church (families are together for everything, no nursery or children’s church, or even separate Sunday schools.) While I truly like the principle in theory, the more I hear of the movement, the more I shudder at it. For example, she told me that women aren’t allowed to speak even in Sunday school, but to ask their husbands questions at home. Well, Scripture makes reference to women not praying or prophesying without a covered head, which means in at least some contexts, women are allowed to speak in the worship service itself (and even to prophesy, which is surely a more direct “speaking for God” than is asking a question in Sunday school!). In my mind, then, a church that would go so far in the direction of “women not speaking” as to disallow women praying during prayer meeting or asking a question during Sunday school, or giving a prayer request or a testimony during appropriate times in the worship service if the pastor allows them to do so by calling on them, is to go beyond Scripture.
To me the principle of Psalms only is in that category; it’s based on someone’s interpretation of Scripture, and if an individual church wants to do it, fine. But to present it as necessary for the entire church is to go beyond Scripture. There are other songs in Scripture beyond those written in the Psalms, if nothing else, and there’s fair evidence of churches in the New Testament singing other songs. Given a choice between most of today’s meaningless worship choruses and the Psalms, sure I’d choose the Psalms. But given a choice between being able to sing openly of Jesus and the resurrection and singing only songs that look ahead to Christ’s death, I can’t imagine refusing to sing songs about the resurrection without clear and compelling Scripture, and I’ve never heard anything convincing in that regard.
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Hi Klasko,
You’ve probably guessed that I do believe Psalms should be sung a capella. You may also know that this was a very common view among Reformers and the Puritans–probably the majority view. I mention this not because I regard such folk as an ultimate authority, but to point out that the view is not an aberrant, sectarian shibboleth.
Having said that, I don’t propose Christians should fall out of fellowship with one another over the issue. I would never accuse a fellow believer of falling for myths or being enslaved merely because he disagreed with me on such a point, important as I believe it is.
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Stubob, 31,
You said you weren’t interested in an argument, then appealed to Mr. North as an authority. Are you trying to make me out as one who’s unwilling to go to the Scriptures.
I don’t believe the problems you describe in your third paragraph unique to, or more likely to occur in, EP churches. I’ve gotten around, myself.
Didn’t mean to get you riled.
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Hello Rio,
Sorry for the brevity of the following. I’d love to say more, but it’s late. Parenthetically, Jesus quoted liberally from the Psalms, and it’s the most quoted OT book in the New Testament.
Those terms you cite (as I’m sure you know) appear together in both Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3. I think it’s interesting and useful to recognize (though not authoritative) that each of those terms appear as Psalm headings in the Septuagint, with which Paul, the Apostles, and many in their audience would have been quite familiar.
But more tellingly, look at the text surrounding the Col. 3 passage. That verse reads:
Here Paul is instructing the Colossians to let “the word of Christ” dwell in them; it is to dwell in them “in all wisdom“; they are to be “teaching and admonishing” one another, doing so with “spiritual songs”. This language is expressive of, and points to, inspired writing, or, more to the point, inspired compositions–the Psalter! It’s inconceivable that when Paul refers to “spiritual” songs, he means anything less than what is inspired by the Holy Spirit–the Psalter!
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Hi Cheryl D.
It really is late for me, and I hope to take a closer look at your posts, but I just want to mention that, like I said to Klasko, while I do think this is a neglected doctrine, I don’t believe it should keep Christians from recognizing each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
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What about us music listeners who have trouble with simplistic, harmonyless stuff? I turn off to most of the new “praise music.” It is boring and I tune it out. It never comes with written music/notes. There is little harmony. It keeps on repeating. It used to make me mad, now it just puts me to sleep.
We picked our new church mostly because my wife likes the music. I would much rather get there late and miss it. She wants to be there early so we don’t miss the singing. At least having a bum knee allows me to sit through the song service. I don’t get much “worship” out of that part of the service. I am an old fuddy duddy. I hate the “music.” I wouldn’t listen to it on the radio. I would turn off the radio rather than listen to “praise songs.”
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There are many wonderful, doctrinally-sound “new” hymns being written and sung. There are many old hymns in which all the verses build and display much of the truth of Scripture (others, not so much).
But what I’ve found about much of the contemporary/popular “praise” music is it’s “me” focus — “I” will worship you, “I” love you. The lyrics are “I” centered, not Christ centered. They hymns are to be teaching tools in worship, they should deepen our understanding of Christ and the Scriptures (and the Psalms, of course, are wonderful to sing — but I’d argue not the only expression the church can use in song).
How sad it is to go into today’s Christian bookstore and not be able to find any of the classic, sacred music that has so enriched the church through the ages.
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One believes one thing, another believes differently. Do not allow our differences lead to judgementalism. I believe that God, in His wisdom and understanding of human nature, allowes for differences in worship styles, and (gasp) even so called denominations. Our unity is in Christ Jesus, He in us and we in Him. Are we not of one body, one Spirit, one life? We certainly are not born of one another, but born of one Spirit. “Come, let us worship and bow down…”
each in his own way.
MARANATHA!
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Hi Donna,
I’m confused by the tinge of hostility here. I haven’t broached anything *near* as extreme as keeping women from speaking in church. Like I mentioned above, the history of the Regulative Principle in the Reformed church suggests that the notion itself is something more than mere “movement-ism.” I’m not *complaining* so much as wondering why a Christian is being judgmental when he or she expresses views on *this* point of doctrine, but if he or she defends, say, the virgin birth or divinity of Christ, it’s a legitimate defense of the faith. One could dismiss *any* argument by asserting that it’s merely “someone’s interpretation of Scripture.” If the Scriptures say a thing is “absolute,” that thing is absolute. Merely because it’s not an issue essential to salvation doesn’t mean it’s something about which there’s no right or wrong.
If you want me to take a stab at answering the stuff you wrote having to do with exclusive psalmody, I can try to check in later, but if it’s somehow striking a nerve beyond the subject itself, I can just bow out. Lemme know if it’s the former.
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[So, was the second sentence edited to include "Lutheran Church" the second time "Missouri Synod" was used? It seems pretty obvious now.]
No, what I dislike in this article is that it seems to be no more than another salvo in the so-called “worship wars” by a traditionalist. Therefore, just another part of the war. But Stubob helps by reminding us that Christianity is not based on history and tradition but on the word of God.
Furthermore, the author’s characterization that church music has been written by theologians and musicologists strikes me as invalid. Most music is written by musicians and poets. It may be evaluated by the theologians and musicologists for inclusion in a hymnal, but how many hymnals are being published in today’s world?
No, I think the author is railing as much against today’s culture and technology as against its style of music. Having spent many years singing traditional music, I began to realize that the bulk of the hymns being sung were written during a period from about 1880 to 1980. And although most contained sound doctrine, why is it that the traditionalist think that only one century’s music is appropriate for worship?
There may be some fluff in contemporary church music, but time and theology will push most of it out.
And as to the “wars,” I like best some thoughts that Gloria Gaither shared at a music conference in 2007. She talked about music being a way that believers tell their “story” of their relationship with God, and that we must all allow our fellow believers to tell their own stories. That has a lot to do with why the traditionalists tend to prefer 1880-1980 music: its milieu tells their stories. Contemporary music tells the stories that resonate with younger believers. There needs to be room for both in our corporate worship.
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I wonder what our music will be like in Heaven. Will we take our beloved songs and musical instruments or a cappella preferences with us? Or will it all be new and eternally contemporary?
What sort of music and worship do we expect new believers in non-english / non-european cultures to develop?
What is the relationship between maturation and stagnation in Biblical worship?
I’ve said that we cannot agree on two things: 1-How we raise our children; and 2- How we spend our money. So there is a third: The proper way to worship God.
While we can agree on some broad foundational principles, there seems to be a great diversity that is not only personally meaningful but also Biblically acceptable. Though there are certainly some who would disagree.
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Doulos8, I definitely don’t prefer 1880-1980; that isn’t a strong period in hymnody. Older than that is stronger theologically. (Yes, I’m serious.)
Macrutabaga, one of your points of proper music clearly has no grounds whatsoever in Scripture, though it may have some traditional grounds, and that is a cappella singing. How does a church sing all those Psalms about praising God on instruments . . . a cappella . . . and not see a disconnection?
Yes, I would like to see biblical proof that nothing but the Psalms are to be used. Surely the idea that “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs” are all divisions of the Psalms is not proof that they were all that was to be used. In the Old Testament, worship music was written and sung in response to God’s faithfulness (crossing the Red Sea, repentance over Bathsheba, etc.), and it was sung before anyone knew whether it would end up in the psalter. In other words, if there is a limit to “sing only what is written in the Psalms,” obviously it had to come fairly late in biblical history, after the Psalms were collected; and the idea that Old Testament saints were allowed to sing in response to God’s faithfulness in a given event, but New Testament Christians are not, does need biblical proof.
The psalter doesn’t include the biggest celebration of all, the resurrrection. Many churches sing the Lord’s prayer, and other songs directly from Scripture; I can see (possibly) arguing that all one’s singing must come straight from inspired Scripture, but see no biblical warrant whatsoever not to sing the Lord’s prayer or other passages from Scripture outside the Psalms. (There are even other books of poetry in Scripture; may we not sing them?)
So really, without an unambiguous biblical absolute–and I don’t know of any–this cannot be taught as a doctrine binding to all. One can have a personal preference in this direction, as one can have a personal preference to attend a church where women are forbidden any role other than cooking for potlucks, but I don’t see that one can bind others’ consciences on such.
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OK, Cheryl D. I get mixed signals there. You ask for a response, indicating here and earlier you’ve never heard the position defended (or perhaps never heard of it *at all*), but assert with certainty that the case is closed. Then you add insinuations about my being judgmental. I’m throwing in the towel. I was only chiming in for the purposes of discussion, not to get anyone in a huff.
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Macrutabaga,
I have definitely heard the position, and I’ve seen it defended, and on World’s blog itself. And it’s on World’s blog that I first saw the idea that “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs” could in fact all be applied to the psalms, and in fact that “new song” doesn’t mean “new song” at all (though I forget what the person said it does mean). So I’ve “learned something.” I’m not a person who’s closed to being persuaded by Scripture. I’ve made major theological leaps in the past (even the recent past) once persuaded by Scripture. I do think there’s a big jump from saying that psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs can all mean the psalms and saying that use of songs outside the Psalms are forbidden. In fact, in the list of Reformers who believed that, did anyone mention that Martin Luther wrote hymns? Obviously not all the Reformers believed this view.
And I did, I believe, give some biblical evidence for my own view, including what seems to me absolutely clear proof that musical instruments are allowed in worship (in fact nearly commanded in worship) and some hints of the history of use of music in the Old Testament church. In other words, I’m not demanding biblical evidence from you while refusing to give my own. (Though I haven’t studied this subject in detail, as it’s a complete non-issue in the churches where I’ve worshiped, mostly Baptist and PCA.)
I’m not trying to accuse you of being judgmental, simply saying that a person has to be able to convince others in order to expect others to follow a position, otherwise it’s nothing more than a personal preference. My family is strong on personal preferences lifted to absolutes, so perhaps I’m too sensitive here. Most in my family believe drinking is a sin, though Scripture never says that, for just one example. I believe that a person can hold a personal conviction against drinking, but cannot hold the same conviction for others. I see Psalm singing as the same kind of issue . . . unless and until I can see biblical evidence that it is a true prohibition, which so far I haven’t seen.
Fair enough?
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I wonder who we will stand by in Heaven’s choir?
I bet God’s sense of humor (and grace) will put Cheryl D and MACRUTABAGA right next to each other. And they will love it!
I know that at the present time I would prefer to pick the people I stand by. But I suspect God will grow me out of that rather quickly in Heaven.
The only thing we will mourn is the friends who are not there because we misled them by our lack of grace toward each other.
(Yes, I know that no person will be able to legitimately say to God “I refused You because of the hypocritical Christians I knew.”) But we still should feel a measure of responsibility for our obedience to Jesus’ “love one another” command.
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I am not saying that C*&M* do not love each other. I simply took the liberty of using their mild argument to illustrate that our “worship wars” and other conflicts send a confusing message to a watching world.
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Fair enough, Donna J., but I’m not pursuing it. I can “feel the heat” and it’s bewildering to me. The movement stuff really has no place in the discussion. I never “went judgmental,” so I’m not sure why that was introduced, nor why you inferred I thought everyone should agree with me on the basis of my merely stating the view. People can make pet preferences out of *any* doctrine.
My last tidbits:
1) I never claimed there was universal agreement, nor that extra-biblical sources had ultimate authority (despite Stubob’s inference), so Luther’s disagreement is worth considering, but doesn’t prove *the doctrine itself* one way or another.
2) If you’re familiar with the position, as you say you are, you’d have known the argument against instruments in worship; then you could have scrutinized *that*.
I’ve now sounded more caustic than I intended, but it’s frustrating trying to carry on discussions about such things when folks insist on attaching the extracurricular baggage. I ain’t in no Movement.
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Macrutabaga,
Is #51 directed at me (it says Donna J.)? If so, I don’t think I said anything about a “Movement,” but much of the other stuff seems to address points made by me, and not by Donna that I can see. As to #2, I said I’m familiar with the position, not that I know a lot about it (I even admitted being only recently acquainted with the thought that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs could all apply to the Psalms), and I know nothing at all about the arguments against instruments in worship. Frankly, that one mystifies me. I know of no possible scriptural basis for it, and much scriptural basis against it, and I’ve never heard so much as an attempt to defend the position, I simply know that some people hold it.
FWIW, I’m not an “expert” on Scripture, but have been in church for 40 years, have graduated from Bible college, and have read the Bible all the way through a number of times. I edit for Christian publishers, so I’ve also read much of what has been written by pastors and theologians through the ages. So when I say I don’t know of any Bible passage saying something, it is not a flippant response from someone who really doesn’t care what Scripture says and maybe has never really read it. It is an honest reply.
It’s OK if you don’t want to continue this, but if post #51 was meant to be addressed to me, I think you’re misreading me. Yes, my bias is for use of hymns and not just psalms, and for use of instruments–I’ve readily admitted that. But I do think it’s a biblically informed bias and not simply a personal preference. I take very seriously the commands to worship God correctly in reverence and awe. I also think that if Old Testament worship was joyful, sometimes included “new” music, and included dancing and instruments, how much more should worship on this side of the Cross and the empty tomb (though I’m not a dancer, nor is my denomination–I’m thinking more of joyful worship, however, including joyful, instrumental music) . . . again, unless these are forbidden by Scripture. Scripture commands us to worship, to worship through song, even to worship with instruments . . . so unless there’s a parallel restriction, that’s my starting point, that theologically accurate music and instruments are permitted, even encouraged, in corporate worship, and I think it’s a position fully in line with sola scriptura.
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Bob Buckles (40): You expressed my views better than I could have done myself! I was beginning to wonder if anyone here objected to mindless repetition of choruses that have almost no harmony, are heavy on rhythm, and are difficult to sing because no attention seems given to meter. Melody should be at least somewhat anticipatory, by which I mean the singer ought to have some idea of where the melody line is going next, no irregular jumps or lines that don’t scan. Also, some music just isn’t suitable or appropriate for congregational singing. A soloist’s music simply doesn’t always translate to choral performance. I told a friend I was about ready to enter the sanctuary 20 minutes late and hopefully miss most of the choruses.
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- worship is to God and and should be full of him; we are the worshipers, humble and grateful for the grace received, but he is the one who is God (and love, and truth, and just, and beautiful, and majestic, and sovereign – and worthy)
- worship is based on the revealed truth – so it has to have a content (who God is and what are his works, mainly, and, secondly, our response to those two points, e.g, repentance, gratefulness, joy, petition); as something with content, it is expected to teach (whatever our songs tell, that the audience will learn)
- the primary principle of Christian life is love God, and love one another; however, it is God, within the Bible, who gives us the content of what ‘love’ means (its main characteristics are truth, compassion, and sacrifice); it should be self-evident that worship is informed by this
p.s. thanks for patience. keep his path.
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Praise the Lord!
Praise Him in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!
Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His
excellent greatness!
Praise him with the sound of
The trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and
harp!
Praise Him with the timbrel
and dance;
Praise Him with stringrd
insruments and flutes!
Praise him with loud cymbals;
Praise him with clashing
cymbals!
Let everything that has breath
praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord!
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Yes, Cheryl D., 51 was meant for you, not Donna J.
Apologies, Donna J.
Cheryl D., you mentioned the movement thing, and lots of accompanying baggage, in 35.
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That should have finished with ‘Ps. 150″ PTL!
I was in a Charismatic prayer and worship service in a RC church in Vermont. The praise and worship became so spiritually intense that the heavenly angels joined us in adoration and praise. It was an experience of pure worship the likes I had never heard. We were surronded by the heavenly choir.
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I see Roger just posted Psalm 150, perhaps to highlight the instruction to dance and praise God with instruments. I’m still not going to pursue the finer points (ascribe whatever motives you wish–maybe I cling to myths, maybe I’m brainwashed by the exalted leader), but it should not be a foreign concept to any Christian that nearly *every* portion of worship prescribed in the OT was *symbolic* of some aspect of the work of Christ; certain other ceremonial features of OT worship were abrogated at his advent; it may be the case that instruments were, too.
Now I’m out. Maybe if you read the words of some revered dead guys on the subject, you’ll be less prone to think of them as sectarian hyper-purists.
Man, I’m more tiffed than I want to be about it, but really, talk about your inability to discuss the issue at hand…. Laters.
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Ah, yes I see the word “movement” in that post, but the context was clearly the family-integrated church movement (one that perhaps you aren’t familiar with–the word “movement” definitely fits), not Psalms only. Psalms only seems more traditional to really use the word “movement” for it, which is why I was puzzled and reread a post or two that I’d written, since it didn’t seem like the way I’d describe it.
It seems unlikely to me that we have less “freedom” in worship after the resurrection. We no longer must kill animals, true. But no longer being allowed to use instruments to help us praise God seems highly unlikely.
I am sorry the discussion has stirred up hard feelings; I have none, and wish you the best.
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Boy, that praise song in #55 is just like the rest of them. All that repetition really bugs me.
Oh, wait…….
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Not having grown up with Christian music radio stations, I’m concerned about them being used as watered down background noise while our “churched” teenagers listen to them on their Ipods as they mow lawns, go running, etc. Nanas are not in charge of either them or their parents anymore, and rather helpless as Christians seem to want to compete with the world.
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Well, Cheryl D., something prompted you to bring up “the movement” and compare it to that something in a negative light. The way that “something” has been dismissed in this thread is nothing short of shabby.
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Nana,
Would you please elaborate on your statement and say why you find music (Christian music, I assume) sometimes being used partly (or maybe all) as background music? Not to be rude or anything; I just want to see what you’re getting at and where you’re coming from. I know that lots of people disagree with me on what kinds of music ot listen to and more, but I think it’s fine to agree to disagree.
In fact, I’m rather happy now that I don’t hold the position of my former churches that rock (including CCM) and a whole bunch of other genres of music are “bad.” It lets me have much more freedom, if you will…but I will respect the opinions of those who hold that only hymns, classical, and maybe a few other kinds of music are ok, provided they don’t try to preach to me about music. The same goes for those who only believe psalms should be sung in church. If that’s what you believe and you can back it up biblically (and don’t try to say “you’re wrong!” to me), I will essentially “agree to disagree.”
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If you want to read the theses for yourself
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=15800
usually the COP does not do this sort of thing. They left out our Theologians from the seminary and the CTCR.
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Macrutabaga,
I don’t know that it has been treated as shabbily as you think, honestly. Honest questions have been asked by several people, and never answered. We all have our presuppositions, but I finish this discussion with not one single reason to reconsider mine. And I don’t believe I’ve been disrespectful in the process of asking questions; this has actually been a fairly tame thread. (Compare, for example, the thread about Protestants becoming Catholic.)
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Sounds good, Cheryl D. Had I not had the impression I’d be having to deal with all your concerns about imposing an absolute on the oonsciences of others, despite my never having suggested anything of the like, it might have been an interesting conversation. But that side discussion is an unnecessary burden to bear when it’s added to an otherwise weighty topic.
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The document itself declares: “The polarization that is affecting the church concerning the issue of forms, rites and ceremonies is sinful and hinders the proclamation of the gospel.”
So true, but I’m sure these Lutheran folks will not examine the root reasons of why there is competition getting people inside their church door over another. The household of faith has been polarized from one believe or behavior to another ever since the church has operated in an institutionalized form that takes 75 – 85% of the “giving” and uses it to buy facilities and hired experts to dominate the expression of truth so saints can simply come and listen rather than prepare all week and then participate. As long as the system demands money to make the meeting happen, there will be competition to attract more “givers”. “Giving” is not giving until it goes beyond the givers to the needs of those far greater than your own, such as those who have no one to give them the gospel, or who cannot meet basic needs. Institutionalized giving is actually buying or pooling, not giving at all because it buys things primarily for those who give the money. Now church is largely driven by consumer taste preference and many false claims that one form is more godly than another, when at it’s core the whole system is ungodly.
Jesus said, “where you treasure is there will your heart be also”. If you consume a large percentage of your own offering your heart WILL BE focused on yourself. Like the Pharisees, many saints declare their forms of worship “corban” or”dedicated to God”, all the while it nullifies the commands of God. Follow the money. “Polarization” is one of the many horrible side affects of institutionalized faith. A complete system change is needed. God just may ruin our economy so we have no more money to “give” to buy crowd oriented facilities and experts to outsource our responsibility to walk in the Spirit all week and let the living water overflow for FREE to our fellow body members.
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67-
Amen!!
I was part of the Psalm Singing crowd by membership for a few years. I still sing the Psalms at home and always will.
However, the denomination has it’s rule book and some bad (FOOLS, ungodly)dictators. So our family was harrased by mail, phone and the pulpit for two years for simply leaving the church quietly. We were then excommunicated.
I was told that I had no biblical reason for leaving my husband, (which was unsafe counsel) and it turns out that just a few short years later, the leader’s own wife has left him, and none of doubt why. This leader also revealed personal information through the pulpit, which was abusive. Horribly abusive. This is why we left.
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68-
correction:
“…the leader’s own wife has left him, and none of US doubt why.”
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67-
“Institutionalized giving is actually buying or pooling, not giving at all because it buys things primarily for those who give the money. Now church is largely driven by consumer taste preference and many false claims that one form is more godly than another, when at it’s core the whole system is ungodly.”
Thank you!!
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RIO, I don’t know how to say it much differently. What I’ve heard of today’s popular Christian music sounds so similar to secular music that it’s sometimes hard to distinguish unless you can make out an occasional word here and there. Not having grown up with that I simply see it as trying to compete with the world and have a hard time distinguishing between the two. I’m not saying it’s necessarily bad, especially as a choice between the two. I just don’t care for it and wonder if young people would know the difference if they make a mistake tuning in on their radio dial. They are faced with so many temptations thrown directly into their faces these days, it just concerns me. But, of course, we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable, and I hope I didn’t sound that way.
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TIMA, how can you be so “sure these Lutheran folks will not examine the root reasons of why there is competition,” or how they use their finances. They strike me as rather careless statements.
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TIMA,
Can’t wait to hear more…
For the record, TIMA is not picking on the Lutherans. No denomination or non-denomination wants to examine the real reasons why they are competing to get people inside their own church doors.
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TIMA,
“A complete system change is needed. God just may ruin our economy so we have no more money to “give” to buy crowd oriented facilities and experts to outsource our responsibility to walk in the Spirit all week and let the living water overflow for FREE to our fellow body members.”
AGREED
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Nana
Lutherans have the same Bible I have. For hundreds of years and in thousands of churches they have had access to it’s instruction on the gathering of believers, but instead they cling to their traditions. I was trapped (willingly and inexcusably) in tradition for 20 years. However, you are right.. there is a possibility God’s revelation could break into their hearts in new understanding at some point.
Here is a little revelation from Ephesians 5:
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1. “One another” speaking and singing cannot be accomplished with believers lined up in pews facing a pulpit expecting everything to come to them from the pulpit. This is one-way communication. The exact opposite of “one another” communication. This is expert driven perpetual dependency oriented gathering rather than reproductive participatory gathering.
2. This “one another” speaking and singing is a direct expression of being “filled with the Spirit”. Pew sitting and expecting a (usually) one person prepared “order of worship” for them to be “lead in worship” is not an expression of being filled with the Spirit. Spirit filled believers do not need to be “lead” in worship by a human expert. The Spirit leads them in worship all week long as they “walk” in the Spirit and then it overflows to the other body members when they gather. Leaders are only there to set the example and then have the rest follow that example by doing the same thing. No perpetual dependency – just full reproduction of walking in the Spirit. Pews and pulpit are a HUGE put down or dumbing down of what God has made His people to be and do when they gather.
Pulpits and pews all feels warm (as long as it matches your preferred style). It all uses the right words. It all can be used by God for somethings of His purposes. But because it is not full obedience He cannot accomplish EVERYTHING He wants accomplished. God does not settle for mediocre results. He will only settle for EVERYTHING He desires to accomplish.
We can respond in obedience to His revelation, or we can face suffering that results from His pruning and discipline. Take your pick.
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Well, TimA, that’s pretty harsh, but you didn’t really answer my question. And don’t forget verse 21.
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Nana,
The answer is that the Lutherans, like most others, “cling to their traditions”. That is the short answer. You can’t serve God and money.
What about verse 21? “Submitting to one another in the fear of God.” What mutual submission is even possible in the pulpit and pew arrangment? Care to give examples? I could give some, but they will not be complimentary to the pulpit or the pew.
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I suggest you read the LCMS Theses on Worship,
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=15800
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Tima,
I brought another thread up which is your favorite pews, etc – here we are four months later, you still haven’t answered the question. WHO are the churches”
Check out the thread:
Surveying the megachurch landscape
http://online.worldmag.com/2009/06/10/surveying-the-megachurch-landscape/
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Reg, submitting to one another (and loving each other as we love ourselves) I think should at the least discourage your bitter condemnation of your brothers and sister in Christ who worship differently than you’d like them to.
Does your bitterness stem from a personal slight or disappointed expectations? I was completely unaware of this worship issue within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I think they should be able to settle it among themselves and left alone and left by those who disagree culturally.
Neither do I understand your and Tim’s vehemance against pews. I believe as Paul wrote to the Corinthians that everything should be done in good order, and I need a place to sit.
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Victoria, thanks for the link. I hope it helps me understand our anti-pew/anti-pulpit people.
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Nana – 81
Below is another LINK to another thread. I’ve brought it back up, …. if you scroll to the bottome you will see questions that were never answered. Again, pews, money etc., is always the excuse – however the churches in question are NEVER MENTIONED, only accused.
“The church Jesus left”
http://online.worldmag.com/2009/04/17/the-church-jesus-left/comment-page-2/#comment-479887
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OK, before I’m done slogging my way through the background on this issue, I have to say that I very much appreciated Warren Cole Smith’s commentary.
Noting a reference to the ex-Catholic pollster George Barna raised a red flag for me. Early on I was interested in his market research company until something didn’t ring true and I chalked up his bias to an agenda I didn’t have time to analyze.
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Nana, …. George Barna has raised a red flag for me as well – for a long time.
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Those who claim the negative post-congregational narrative, the emerging church, post-evangelicals and social justice movements might do better to consider their witness to the world in the name of Jesus Christ as a positive hope for all who would come.
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Nana, I agree with you – The Emergent Church movement has a very large agenda -
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TIM and REG, would I be correct in guessing that you’re member of the liberal Religious Society of Friends which believes in unprogrammed worship? If so, your earnest arguments are with your Evangelical Quaker Friends who, I recently learned, have much larger mega-churches than any orderly LCMS church I’ve attended in the past. Help me out on this, I am sincerely curious.
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Yikes, Victoria, I hate all this, but I can’t hide my head in the sand either. I used to keep track of false doctrines and teachers and they’re are simply being recycled (as from the beginning) to tempt our egotistical natures.
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Nana,
I don’t know if these two (I don’t think it’s Tim, I think Tima is a woman too, though I may be wrong) don’t believe in denominations at all, and think anyone who isn’t in a house church isn’t worshiping correctly. As a result, they aren’t very friendly to the rest of the body of Christ, and turn every thread about Christian things to this issue if they can.
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Nana, I hate it too – but it is what we are facing today in our Christian lives.
There has been a lot of debate on this blog (much of it has been very informative) One of the favorites of those in the Emergent Church is to discredit the Evangelical Church, the way they teach, preach, use of money, Bible translations, to name just a few. Many consider themselves to be “Bereans” There was a thread no so long ago which I will give you the link.
“Only those who obey .”
http://online.worldmag.com/2008/09/20/%e2%80%9conly-those-who-obey-%e2%80%a6%e2%80%9d/
In the thread above it is stated – #19 per Tima which reads:
“All the translators translate with a bias that distorts God’s revelation.”
I answered that post, #35 but never received a reply. That’s OK, there was no answer to be given.
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Cheryl – you’re right!
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Nana,
I, like other Christians I know, including many of my friends (who are good Christians, not worldy people who call themselves Christians but aren’t any different from non-Christians in how they act or speak or dress, etc.) listen to both Christian and secular music, but not if its lyrics are clearly bad.
Actually, I go a step further and don’t usually listen to artists who have lifestyles I don’t agree with (for instance, Amy Grant, Ray Boltz, and others). Admittedly, sometimes I may listen to a ongs by an artist I don’t otherwise care for in terms of what I just said, but for me to really like a singer or band (and well, endorse it, I suppose), I have to agree with their lifestyle, lyrics, appearance (I think guys having earrings and head-bangers and some other stuff is just weird), and more.
I’d make the point that Classical and other kinds of music was (and still is) often written and performed by people who were not just non-Christians, but not living very moral lifestyles, to put it simply. So to repeat the point stated earlier, I do listen to secular music, but not just mainstream radio music. Everything from Celtic to Classical Crossover from singers like Hayley Westenra and Josh Groban to much more.
I probably didn’t say all that as clearly or concisely as I would have liked, but then, it’s not a speech.
I hope I haven’t been rude or used too many words and parentheses, although the latter is pretty likely; my writing skills are not quite what I’d like.
And yes, as you might have guessed already, I am a young person, and if you don’t know my age, you could probably come reasonably close with a guess.
Well, that’s long enough. I’m afraid I just like to talk sometimes.
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Nana,
One thing I forgot to say:
But, of course, we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable, and I hope I didn’t sound that way.
Certainly. No, I don’t think you sounded that way. I believe it’s fine for people to give their opinions on things as long as they respect their opponents’ view/s – or at least to make their points logically and civilly, without being rude or incisive.
I finished the last sentence that way because there are many opinions I don’t respect. I think it’s better this way:
“as long as they respect their opponent’s right to hold their views.” For instance, I don’t respect the views of those who believe in totalitarianism and the taking away of many of our freedoms, genocide, abortion, and way too many other topics to list here. However, someone can believe something and they are entitled to their opinions. Once they’ve gone and acted upon those opinions, things might become quite a bit different, however.
Well, there goes another post that was probably very rhetorical and not particularly helpful. Oh, well.
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name calling,
people aren’t allowed to speak, only in the name of some movement…
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“I don’t know if these two (I don’t think it’s Tim, I think Tima is a woman too, though I may be wrong) don’t believe in denominations at all, and think anyone who isn’t in a house church isn’t worshiping correctly. As a result, they aren’t very friendly to the rest of the body of Christ, and turn every thread about Christian things to this issue if they can. ”
Cheryl,
It is so good of you to be here to interpret for those of us who are incapable of communcicating.
I certainly do not communicate on every Christian thread (what is a Christian thread?)let alone try to turn every thread to this issue if I can. Your immaturity is showing. This is only second to the time that you posted to me that you would delete every post I had written, if you could.
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“TIM and REG, would I be correct in guessing that you’re member of the liberal Religious Society of Friends which believes in unprogrammed worship? If so, your earnest arguments are with your Evangelical Quaker Friends who, I recently learned, have much larger mega-churches than any orderly LCMS church I’ve attended in the past. Help me out on this, I am sincerely curious.”
The name is TIMA. I recall that he is a man. And to answer your question, ROLFLMHO!!!!!
I am an individual person who happens to belong to the LCMS who also happens to believe a variety of things, some of which I post.
Do I have to belong to a larger group before I can post some view that a larger group also believes? WOW!!!
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Reg, I only vaguely remember saying that (I’m not even sure I did say that, though I might have), but it was probably when you were clogging up a thread with posts that were derailing the discussion, and I wanted to discuss whatever the actual thread was about, or perhaps when you were attacking someone else in comment after comment. Again, I really don’t remember, but I don’t think it’s out of line to explain to someone who asked about you the history of your comments on this blog.
I almost said you and Tima appear on every “church” thread, but you and Tima (especially you) end up on pretty much every theological thread, even if it isn’t specifically about the church, with the same old anti-institutional-church jargon. It’s fine if you want to say that you’ve found smaller churches to reach out better, minister better, or whatever, and give some reasons you like them. But when you attack the very idea of larger churches, of sermons, etc., and basically gloat at everything that harms such a church, you seem to be attacking the very bride of Christ. The church is His bride, and like it or not, most churches do meet in larger communities than yours, and theologically sound churches often do so. Many of us have pointed out that smaller churches have their own issues, but you’d rather attack the whole idea of “institutional” churches than actually dialogue. There’s a place for small, medium, and large churches in the body of Christ; there isn’t a place for schism because other people meet in a church that looks different (if that “different” church is theologically on track). And your attempts at persuasion by mockery and attack do nothing at all to convince the rest of us that you’ve found a theologically sound church; they suggest (truly or not, I don’t know) that you’re in a cult.
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RIO, you just made my day! There might not be many “young Christians” who actually take the time to honestly explain to an anonymous old “fuddy-duddy” their well-thought-out musical tastes in a noncontentious way. I accepted Christ in 1977 and loved Amy Grant & Michael W. Smith’s works from that period. You make so many good points, I don’t know where to begin. I still like many old songs from my BC youth and never considered the lifestyles of strictly instrumental musicians. You haven’t been rude or verbose or too parenthetical. I love you for everything you said because it confirmed my faith in new generations of Christians with discernment and respect for where those who came before them are coming from. Hang in there, RIO, and thanks.
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Victoria, the blogging history of TIMA and REG is sad but fascinating. They really do not answer questions directly, only attack, insult and twist scipture. Hard to believe they’re not blinded or brainwashed to some extent. More for me to look into and bone up on this current incarnation of false teaching.
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Cheryl, then TIMA
and REG are in the right place, although it’s hard to imagine why either one thinks they can disprove the truth of biblical history. No matter, we have prayer and hope for both, eh?
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REG, I don’t understand why you would continue to belong to a church and denomination with traditions, rites and worship you seem to despise. Are you so remote from other congregations of any sort that you can’t find one where you’re more comfortable? I am a former LCMS member, happy then and happy now in an OPC chruch.
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REG, ok, so TIMA’s a man and you are ROFLYHO. Why must you personally insult individuals on this blog, and why won’t TIMA directly answer questions? Possibly neither one of you have any real answers to sincere theological questions and must attack the questioner instead. That’s what it seems to me so far.
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Nana,
You don’t have to understand why I am in the church situation that I am in. Perhaps you could use your imagination. People don’t always end up in their ideal. Circumstances don’t always come together, etc.
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Give me an example (not from your own behavior, although there would be some good examples there,) of me attacking anyone on this blog…
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How many of you think that the hymn “Blessed Assurance” is appropriate for worship in church? In 1873 it was a new hymn. The traditionalists would have robbed us of a great hymn, if they had rejected everything new.
How about “Alas And Did My Savior Bleed?” In 1707 it was a new hymn.
How about “Ein’ Feste Burg” (”A Mighty Fortress”)? It was new in 1529.
Every hymn or Christian song was new when it was first composed.
Think about it.
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Many hymns are just paraphrases of Scripture texts. Many contemporary worship songs, on the other hand, are direct quotes from God’s word, especially the ones that were so popular in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
How can they be theologically unsound if they directly quote passages of scripture?
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REG, I’m sincerely sorry that you’re miserable in your present church and trust you’re still able to find aspects of the worship that glorify the Lord and fulfill you. As there is no ideal church in this life, calling people immature who disagree with you, and condemning their own choices and circumstances, got my back up since you don’t seem to allow for the possibility that other applications of scripture are just as valid as you think yours is. Have you now read the LCMS Theses on Worship? I think they’re balanced and make good points on maintaining historical Lutheranism.
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KYLE, glad you brought that up. I’ve been thinking about that very point and didn’t relish getting into that circular debate especially when it comes to cultural judgments, but well worth keeping in mind and smiling.
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This is what is instuling:
#89, Cheryl; “As a result, they aren’t very friendly to the rest of the body of Christ, and turn every thread about Christian things to this issue if they can.”
Cheryl: I called you immature because you need to learn boundaries and talk only about yourself, and not other people posting on this blog. Others can speak for themselves, and the others that are reading can have their own thoughts about what they read.
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paraphrasing and direct quoting are not the same thing
how can it be bad to immerse your self in direct quotes of God’s own words?
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Well, if what is described in the article – that songs played on Christian radio get automatically and uncritically used in church on Sunday – then I have no disagreement. It’s just that in our particular congregation, that is not what happens. As a contemporary worship band leader, I consider *every* song, regardless of source, for sound Lutheran theology and fitness for worship. Some “current radio songs” don’t make it, either because of quality or content. Some do, I just scheduled Jimmy Needham’s catchy “Forgiven and Loved” for Reformation Sunday because it makes a terrific presentation of grace vs. works, as does Caedmon’s Call’s “I’m So Thankful”. As I dig through my shelf full of hymnals looking for new tunes, a lot of those songs don’t make the cut either. To me it is a question of whether, having trained our people in sound Lutheran theology, we then trust them with discernment to make good choices about worship songs, regardless of style or source.
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REG 110, does that mean, as Kyle points out, that you have no argument with contemporary worship songs that directly quote scripture, but do with hymns of paraphrased lyrics? And what about the order of service in Lutheran hymnals?…just asking.
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I appreciate singing the Psalms, the book of Psalms, the whole Psalm, that pretty much rules out comtemporary arrnagments, I would say. It isn’t that there isn’t truth/artistry in other places, but when it comes to what I want resonating through my min as I face the trials an tribulations of life, having to constantly discern the character of those I meet, and discern each situation, that I want the Psalms speaking to me whenever I possibly can.
The order of service in the LCMS hmynal would take more time than I can give it to discuss.
For one thing, I prefer a more informal setting. For another, I don’t care to repent of my sins in the wording used by the LCMS since it sounds like the sinner’s prayer being said each week. It feels like I am going through the motions getting “saved” every week. What a slap in God’s face. We need a form prayer fro those who are saved, but still confess sins. But then, why do we have to perform as a mass?
Weapons of Mass Instruction, John Gatto, comes to mind.
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Kyle,
Is anyone on here automatically rejecting anything new? Not that I’ve seen. Some are saying only Psalms (which is a different issue entirely) and some are saying only the very best, which tends to be (but isn’t always) music written in an older, more theologically interested time period, but I don’t know that anyone is rejecting newness for its own sake. I personally really appreciate some of the new hymns, though I don’t think much that was written since 1970, or for that matter 1870, really rises to the level of being good enough for public worship. But a handful of my favorite songs are very recent.
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Reg,
For the record, “boundaries” is a psychobabble word that’s meaningless to me. If you want to accuse me of sin, go for it, and if I’ve done it, I’ll repent of it. You might accuse me of gossip, or of getting into other people’s business . . . but not of inappropriate boundaries (esp. on a place such as a blog where we don’t necessarily even know one another’s names!).
I don’t think it’s gossip to point out that this “debate” over whether the institutional church is appropriate has been going on on a lot more threads than this one but is, rather, one that these two people have gotten into repeatedly. It’s a matter of public record that this is true. So, gossip isn’t the right word. Nor is minding my own business, since the church is my business, and attacking her involves an attack on me, my family, and ultimately even my Lord. So I’m more than willing to bring a history of such attacks to the light.
Again, if you need to gently challenge me on something that seems to be sin, do so, but accusing me of “immaturity” for holding improper boundaries isn’t the kind of challenge I can even recognize.
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I didn’t use the word gossip
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Reg, I know you didn’t. My point was that if you’d accused me of gossip, you’d have been accusing me of sin, and as a Christian I can consider such a charge. A charge of inappropriate boundaries isn’t a charge I recognize, as I’ve heard what is done with that term psychologically and I believe it to be not very Christian. We’re part of the same body; we simply don’t put up barriers against one another (especially between husband and wife), which is what “proper boundaries” means. I thus reject the word “boundaries” in terms of relationships, and am saying I’ll accept a charge (with merit) made in Christian terms instead.
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“Nor is minding my own business, since the church is my business, and attacking her involves an attack on me, my family, and ultimately even my Lord. So I’m more than willing to bring a history of such attacks to the light.”
WOW
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How about you let others talk for themselves?
Or this place should be rightly named World of Warfare?
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REG, as for me, I feel exactly the same as Cheryl and is why I said you got my back up by being so unfairly critical and insulting of our other brothers and sisters in the Lord.
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Reg, we have spoken for ourselves many times, but you and Tima have spoken against our churches without ever darkening the doors of our churches – Making countless comments about the teaching, preaching pews, how the offerings are spent, the size of the church, where it is held etc.
Have you taken a look back at what both of you have posted, using the links I gave late yesterday – that might help you understand what we are talking about.
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If I understand you correctly in referring to these blogs, this place will only be the “World of Warfare” if that’s what you make it. If you mean that the the earth in general is a World of Warfare, that’s much different and to be expected.
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It’s worth noting you can “have your cake and eat it too” when well-known hymns (with sound lyrical content) get a “musical retread” with contemporary arrangements … many bands and artists do this, here’s a batch of them we created that are free: http://hymnbook.marxhausen.net And amid the vast number of “just OK” songs you’ll hear on CC radio, there are a few contemporary Christian artists whose writing I’d put up head-to-head with the best hymnody of the ages, like Stuart Townend (one of whose songs, I’m told by the editors, only missed being in the new Lutheran Service Book because of deadline issues.)
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PAULMARX, thank you for the link. I’ll definitely check it out.
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Nana (#98),
Thank you.
While I don’t particularly like many hymns, there are some that I really like, provided they’re sung by someone with a good voice and with a good “style” (for lack of a better term at the moment).
It’s just my personal preference, but I really don’t the way hymns sound when sung by a lot of church choirs, and well, by a lot of people, I guess. Anyway, to the point. Seven of the hymns on my list of favorites are these, in no particular order:
1) O, the Deep Deep Love of Jesus
2) Jesus, Lover of My Soul
3) For the Beauty of the Earth
4) This is My Father’s World
5) Morning Has Broken
6) Let All Things Now Living
7) I Will Arise and Go to Jesus
The tunes I like for these hmyns are usually Irish/Celtic.
Some of these and a few others I like can be found on Michael Card’s Celtic CD, Starkindler. I also like the way he does O, the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus on his most recent Hymns CD.
You can listen to both here:
http://free.napster.com/view/artist/index.html?id=10449475
I would probably say more but I am going to get up at 5:30 tomorrow and am going to get ready for bed now.
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Reg and Tima aren’t incorrect to point out that some people confuse certain traditions of various denominations with actual worship, i.e. in Spirit and in Truth. If it is possible to go to a “worship service” without worshiping, then isn’t worship something other than a service?
It wasn’t until I taught several classes on Protestant History that I realized that much of the ritual we do can be traced back to some quirk or controversy by this or that preacher. Finney’s anxious bench becomes an alter call. Shockingly controversial hymns hang around long enough to become old time favorites that become the mainstay of worship.
However, my hope is the Reg and Tima will realize that there is nothing wrong with these traditions and the body of Christ is free to worship however it chooses. I feel that I can go to pretty much any church and still worship God in truth from the heart. If people find a way to worship God with their whole heart soul mind and strength, then why criticize?
Throughout Protestant history, it was frequently this self-righteous aire about right and wrong worship that led to new traditions and then newer ones and the cycle continued. At one point music was required to be acapella, meaning chapel style, since instruments weren’t allowed in the chapel. Then one by one, certain instruments were “approved” and others were not. Some were of the devil (saxophones) and some were not (organs). Guitars were in then out then in again. Hymns were frowned upon then loved. Spiritual songs were bad then good.
When will cycle of superiority over other Christians stop? It is contrary to the unity of the body. This self-righteous leaven is a fall from grace and causes Christians to bite and devour one another. That’s why we have thousands of different kinds of designer churches. When will we grow up and focus on God more than ourselves?
If we are all servants of Christ, then “why judge another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” Rom 14:4
Can we not worship under any circumstances? Why is home superior to a pew? Why is dialog superior to preaching? Don’t they all have their place?
In the grand scheme of things why do we waste thousands of years arguing rather than worshiping?
Turn your eyes upon Jesus!
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XION
“the body of Christ is free to worship however it chooses. ”
Do you have any scripture on this loosey-goosey-all-ideas-are-good principle? I haven’t seen this principle in the Bible. Enlighten me. Don’t bother trying. Of course there are multiple instructions that believers are to obey regarding their time of gathering.
” this self-righteous aire about right and wrong worship”
The “self-righteous” card has now been played. The “self-righteous” card and the “you’re judging me” card are frequently just self-justifying defense mechanisms that demonstrate a loss of ability to use the scripture to address the real issues that are disagreed over, or refusal to admit error.
“Why is home superior to a pew? ”
In Post #67 I gave a very specific reason why pew based gathering is corrupt. Meeting in homes is a very simple, obvious solution that accomplishes 100% of giving going beyond the givers. Every single instruction on the gathering of believers is best done in this small gathering dynamic.
In Post #75 I gave one scripture that is not fulfilled in pew oriented gathering dealing with how we are to sing and speak.
There are many more severe corruptions in pew/pulpit oriented gathering but I’ll leave it with these two.
Is it self-righteous of me to share these things and to call you on your false assertions?
CherylD and others:
Is TIMA a man or a woman? What a kick!!!
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Tima,
It’s a “kick” that people aren’t sure if you’re a man or a woman? Well, I guess some people are easily amused. You could simply tell us, because it is sometimes helpful to know who we’re speaking to.
You focus on what you want to focus on. Clearly part of worship in the early church was sermons, for instance, and the time for testimonies and encouraging one another was a different time, just as is done in most of our churches (most definitely in mine–I personally am involved weekly in three different groups of four to eight or so from within my church, not to mention one-on-one friendships and interactions).
You keep coming back to this idea of “pooling” resources. Yet paying the pastor (a biblical principle) is not “pooling.” Giving money toward the needs of the poor in the community, giving money to missions, and many other things, are not “pooling.” Old Testament giving mostly stayed in the local community, also; that doesn’t make it wrong. Even what stays within the church walls is giving to the church that could otherwise be paying for things in my own home, and trust me at the moment that is a sacrifice. In my church, a very high percentage of the giving is for needs beyond my local church (from prison ministry to missions), but you seem unwilling to consider that possibility because of your bias against churches that are different from yours.
“Pew-based gathering is corrupt” is a very loaded statement. First, it’s Christ-centered worship, not “pew-based” anything. (Do you have “sofa-based gatherings”? I hope not.) And “corrupt” is a powerfully loaded, judgmental word that has no place in this discussion, used so generally. We aren’t talking about heresy, just about meeting in church buildings rather than homes.
We’ve had this discussion before, that medium and large churches can do outreach in some ways that small churches simply can’t (and I gave as examples two medium-sized churches in Chicago that had multiple ministries to the inner city, unmatched by the multiple house churches in those same neighborhoods). The principle of the body being composed of all sorts is about individuals and spiritual gifts, but I think it can also apply to the different congregations Christ includes within His body. Attacking others because they are different from yours is not a sign of spiritual maturity, and hints that your own church and its leadership may in fact be leading you away from spiritual maturity into unholy division. It’s worth praying about, sir/ ma’am.
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#127 “Do you have any scripture on this loosey-goosey-all-ideas-are-good principle?”
I didn’t say that at all. I am not loosey-goosey on doctrine. As for preferences for styles of worship, try Romans 14. Try the whole book of Galatians which promotes grace and discredits your legalism and causes you to bite and devour others.
Declaring your method of worship as superior to everyone else’s when the Bible is essentially silent on the matter is quite frankly another gospel. It isn’t the gospel of grace.
As for scripture, the ordinances of baptism and communion are given. We are commanded to gather together in Hebrew 10:25. Your verse in Ephesians says to sing to the Lord, but it doesn’t mandate specifically how to do that. Worship is between a Christian and the Lord. The specific of the order of worship when we gather together is a matter of preference.
To turn what the Bible doesn’t say into a club to beat others over the head is probably not what Jesus had in mind when he said, “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Where’s the love?
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XION, all well said. Loving one another and speaking the truth in love do seem to be missing from the gospel that’s misleading TIMA. I wonder if he isn’t actually looking for an argument to reconsider his condemnation of all other worship than his.
TIMA, your comments make me wonder if you’re harboring some bitterness over a personal slight from an experience you had with another denomination.
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RIO, what a great way to let me hear those songs and I will click that link. I love all those hymns you listed, but don’t know #7. When I played piano for church, some of my favorites from “Lift Him Up” vol. 3 are:
El Shaddai
Humble Thyself In The Sight Of The Lord
Bind Us Together
I Will Sing
I Have Decided
Our God Reigns
Alive, Alive
Jehovah Jireh
He Is Jehovah
Praise The Name Of Jesus
Surprised? Hope you’re having a fine day.
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NANA,
“Loving one another and speaking the truth in love do seem to be missing from the gospel that’s misleading” you.
If TIMA wanted you to know about an experience that TIMA has had, don’t you think that he post that information?
How about focus on his words and stop attacking the person?
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XION
” I am not loosey-goosey on doctrine.”
You are merely in denial of this fact if you make statements like “the body of Christ is free to worship however it chooses. ” God has given us parameters or boundaries within which we are free to choose. These boundaries come in the form of direct instructions and intentional apostolic example, but your statement fails to acknowledge these boundaries. You want to do “whatever you choose”.
If you think Romans 14 gives you permission to “do whatever you choose in worship” then your doctrine is very misguided. Rom. 14 is regarding issues where scripture gives no instruction. If you think grace in Galatians means you can gloss over what God has asked you to do, and make up your own preferred routines, then you can line up yourself with those who called Jesus Lord, but refused to do what He said.
“Declaring your method of worship as superior to everyone else’s when the Bible is essentially silent on the matter is quite frankly another gospel.”
Maybe you are right. I am pulling principles for church life out of thin air and inventing “another gospel”. You suggest I look at Heb. 25 to see how we are “commanded to gather together” (You are doing here exactly what Victoria commonly does. Throw scripture out that claims to make your point but it actually teaches my point.) Have you read this scripture lately?
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 12 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Maybe you thought this said “let us consider how we can hire a specially trained man to give us a weekly lecture from the Bible, not forsaking gathering into a special building called a church or sanctuary or house of God, focusing this hour on one-way communication because ordinary saints are not qualified to speak to a crowd…” This pretty much describes what happens in the pew/pulpit routines. But the Bible specifically asks for “one another” communication TWICE in these verses. It’s also in the Ephesian 5 verses I gave earlier and in many others. Do you understand what “one another” communication is? I didn’t for many years as I was stuck in the trap of tradition, unable to grasp the POWER scripture gives to “one anther” expression. It is not social chit chat with mere off the cuff questions and cliches. It is a very prepared, mutual, two-way, intimate, heart to heart expression. This is the focal point dynamic we are not to forsake that produces love and good works of a kind expert driven lecture /expressionless listener cannot touch. Is the scripture really silent or have you been filtering it out looking through your tradition lenses.
“Your verse in Ephesians says to sing to the Lord, but it does not’t mandate specifically how to do that. Worship is between a Christian and the Lord.”
I think you are reading with tradition lenses again. It very clearly says we are to both speak / sing to ONE ANOTHER, and to the Lord. Worship is NOT merely between a Christian and the Lord. Would you be willing to allow these 2 scriptures to impact your worship habits? Will your tradition trump God’s Word?
“To turn what the Bible doesn’t say into a club to beat others over the head…”
Now the club to beat others card is played. How many more cards do you have?
“Where’s the love?”
I have done here what Heb. 10:24,25 says. I have considered how and have invested time in stimulating you beyond your current willingness to serve God based on God’s Word. I have injected humerous sarcasm here and there along with direct refuting. I see these dynamics modeled by Paul and Jesus in their communication. I have even prayed for you that “…the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance IN the saints (not just the clergy), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US (not just the clergy) who believe.”
God has plans for you far greater than sitting in a pew and few misc. duties “laymen” can do. I used to be a “golden layman”. I poured in the money, sat in the serving and ruling committees, played in the orchestra, was a bus captain, taught Sunday School, etc. Most of this (not all) were bad substitutes for what God has designed for men in His household.
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REG, if you’ll read it again you’ll see that I wasn’t referring to TIMA, but how he’s being led. And I simply asked a question in an effort to understand his strong opposition to worship he doesn’t like. I don’t understand why you seem to come across as so hypersensitive to this.
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What are the riches of the glory of His inheritance IN the saints (not just the clergy), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US (not just the clergy).
And how is this inheritance and power ever experienced if the clergy are the only participators?
NANA,
If you are just asking a question to understand his strong opposition wo worship he doesn’t like, then say, “Why are you opposed to this style of worship?” Trouble is, I think he hasbeen saying why all along; you aren’t willing to accept the answer.
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TIMA,
“Where’s the love?”
“I have done here what Heb. 10:24,25 says. I have considered how and have invested time in stimulating you beyond your current willingness to serve God based on God’s Word. I have injected humerous sarcasm here and there along with direct refuting. I see these dynamics modeled by Paul and Jesus in their communication. I have even prayed for you that “…the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance IN the saints (not just the clergy), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US (not just the clergy) who believe.” ”
Excellent answer…
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TimA, my Bible says that I am to worship the Lord only, not “one another.” That you think worship is NOT merely between a Christian and the Lord, strikes me as error. I don’t understand how you can possibly know that my own worship is less than yours, regardless of the setting. Have you read the LCMS Theses on Worship? They’re good food for thought.
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NANA,
Regardless of the LCMS (why is this essential to our thinking?) TIMA is speaking from the bible, and doing so in a way that the LCMS does not do.
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NANA
“my Bible says that I am to worship the Lord only, not “one another.” That you think worship is NOT merely between a Christian and the Lord, strikes me as error.”
If this is your understanding from Eph. 5, then tradition has deeply darkened your understanding. I used to be this blind myself. Read Eph. 5:18-20 again and again until you can understand how to “speak to one another in songs, hymns and spiritual songs…” without worshiping people. Throw off your tradition filters and let God’s spirit “enlighten your heart…” The next step is to take up DOING your church life in obedience to this. Do not let sentimentality shackle you to disobedience.
“I don’t understand how you can possibly know that my own worship is less than yours, regardless of the setting.”
Obedience is better than traditional rituals that are even valid pictures of reality. “To obey is better than sacrifice..” said David. When you resist obeying the scriptures plain instruction on worship, I don’t have to see you with my eyes. Your own words tell me you have barriers to doing what God has asked for. The scripture is the authority here, not me or official Lutheran experts. Grow in your obedience. Do not let men with high degrees be a limitation to your spiritual growth. Grow in faith like Abraham and move out of Ur, the comfortable, predictable and familiar place. God does not want you to stay on a plateau. He wants you to grow till the day you die.
I will try to read the LCMS and see what it says.
REG
Thank you for your support. Don’t let the hurtful situations from the bast be the basis for what you do now. Let the power and richness of the scriptures be the basis. Write them down and memorize them so you can pass them on to others. The hurtful things in the past are only a cause for thanksgiving that God woke you up with some suffering to look beyond your comfort zone.
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#133 Tima, Obviously I’m not saying anything one does is acceptable worship. I am saying worship style is mostly a church preference. Christians are given liberty to determine how best to serve God. You have taken liberty to serve God in your own way, but you don’t grant the same liberty to others.
Aside from the two ordinances and a few other exhortations to preach in season out of season, etc., God doesn’t really prescribe any explicit method of worship. As Rom 14 shows, there isn’t even any mandated day of the week.
But let’s take your favorite verse in Eph 5. You declare that this is the only one acceptable way of worship, i.e. to speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. And those who don’t do this exactly as written are somehow earning God’s displeasure.
Since you are being so literal, tell me if you ever speak to one another without singing. Would that be a violation of holy writ? Precisely how many psalms or hymns or songs please God? What if you have too many psalms and not enough hymns? What if you sing them alone and not to someone else? Is that a violation?
What kind of singing exactly pleases God? Does Tima alone know what style of music God likes? What instruments does God prefer? Does God prefer if you stand or sit or dance or clap your hands? Is a back beat OK? What is too loud or too soft? See how silly this gets?
I mean nothing but love and goodwill when I say that you are suffering from legalism which is a form of me-ism. You are trying to earn God’s favor through your own rituals, not knowing that his favor is freely given. It is called Grace. God is not pleased with you because of anything you have done for him. He loves you because of what his Son has done. God cannot love you any more than he already does. There is nothing you can do to earn it. He is your Father. All of your own works are filthy rags in comparison to God’s mighty work. Read Galatians over and over and over until it sinks in.
There is nothing wrong with your style of worship. It sounds beautiful. But your belief that you have some special knowledge that makes you superior to all others is a form of gnosticism. You are in bondage to a merit system, whereby God’s grace isn’t sufficient. Christ has given us eternal life and liberty. That is tremendously good news. But you would spend your life shaking the bony finger of contention against everyone who does not think exactly like you. Is that Christ-like?
My prayer for the Christian church is that we would stop thinking about how much WE do and remember how much GOD has done. Praise God for his mighty work of salvation, whereby the guilty all have an inheritance in heaven, given at great expense to God, but absolutely freely to us.
Rejoice! Again I say rejoice!
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TimA, Xion has some good points. In fact some excellent points.
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“But your belief that you have some special knowledge that makes you superior to all others is a form of gnosticism.”
The special knowledge to which he refers is in the same Bible that you are reading.
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Tim A – As regards this “I see these dynamics modeled by Paul and Jesus in their communication. I have even prayed for you that ‘…the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance IN the saints (not just the clergy), and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US (not just the clergy) who believe.’”
Paul and Jesus were teachers, and they had disciples who followed their teaching. How is this model different from a pastor, who has God’s calling, leading a congregation in the knowledge the things of God and of sacred scripture? Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples to feed His sheep? The four years of studying in seminary are not a waste of time, just as the years the disciples spent following Jesus around were not a waste of time. They are worth something. It’s so the minister will have SOMETHING (sound doctrine) to feed the sheep. With your model what I see is a bunch of dumb sheep (myself included)trying to feed each other. I’m not saying we can’t learn from each other, but a man who has invested years of his life into learning and understanding sacred scripture is not something to sniff at. After all, we don’t want anemic sheep or, even worse, sheep that are leading each other astray.
I always thought the “riches of the glory of His inheritance” referred to the Salvation that is available to sinners through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Are you saying that unless we participate in preaching to each other during worship, we cannot obtain this salvation? This is not sound doctrine.
Now that I have dared to disagree with you, you can go ahead and acuse me of launching a personal attack against you. Say it if you like, but it just ain’t so! Just a small dose of truth spoken in love.
R-
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XION,
“But let’s take your favorite verse in Eph 5″
Did TIMA SAY this is his favorite verse? If he didn’t SAY that is his favorite verse, then you are using this wording as a put down to his approach to scripture. Ironically, TIMA has been using the scriptures in a balanced way.
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“Now that I have dared to disagree with you, you can go ahead and acuse me of launching a personal attack against you.”
Would you please quote an instance where TIMA accused someone of launching a personal attack?
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R-
Spoken in love –love is not something that we are free to define anyway we choose.
“Are you saying that unless we participate in preaching to each other during worship, we cannot obtain this salvation? This is not sound doctrine.”
Asking a yes or no question does not lend itself to the discussion as well as an open ended question might. In fact, it sounds like you are not asking at all, since you are already saying, “This is not sound doctrine.”
“What is your intrepretation of ‘the riches of the glory if His inheritance?’ And upon what do you base that interpretation? would be a more productive way to seek information from a fellow blogger.
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Why do you so often come to TimA’s defense and try to explain what he means? It’s almost as if you want to pick a fight, when he’s clearly able to explain himself. Eph.5:19 does seem to be a favorite among you “one anothers” according to how often it’s cited. I always thought it applies to all of our life’s walk and warfare as Christians. Loosely basing you worship on that is fine enough, but does not mean it’s superior to others.
On what do you base your interpretation of “…the riches of the glory of His inheritance?”
How do you define and apply “…speaking the truth in love?”
In your Bible studies, how do you compare the New Testament and Old Testament?
Who is John Gatto? Remember not to let the hurtful situations from the past be the basis for what you do now.
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Wow. And I thought ‘worship wars’ was just about music.
Neither the place of worship nor all of the activities that may surround legitimate worship of God, are exhaustively defined in scripture. But the true worshipper is defined clearly:
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John4:23
Peace and blessings on all true worshippers of the living God…wherever you may worship.
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NANA,
If you want to know who John Gatto is, google him.
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NANA,
Guard your own self.
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Accusing TIMA of thinking his view is superior is really an ACT of superiority, and done in hypocrisy.
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I speak to what I perceive to be true. I am not defending TIMA, per se. It is also none of TIMA’s business how I use/God uses the experiences that HE has brought my way. Something that TIMA would recognize were I an in house church where acceptance was in the air.
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REG 150, I don’t know what question that answers, so I guess you’ve said all you want to. That’s ok.
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The LORD Jesus made it clear, calling the temple “My house shall be called a house of prayer” – to make things clear, it was where people WORSHIP –
Yes I am sure everyone who believes in “house churches’ will be jumping up and down proclaiming that the early church didn’t have church buildings. There was a period of time during and after Christ’s life here on earth where that was true, but for nearly two thousand years there have been CHURCH BUILDINGS as the majority of Jews did not believe in the Messiah Jesus, so their Temples were not used to proclaim Jesus as their Messiah.
Pews, chairs, couches, rugs, it doesn’t matter where people sit, the Gospel needs to be preached and taught.
There is a time to interact within the church, to share – but it is not to be done to interupt the pastor/teacher/evangelist –
The LORD continues to have a “HOUSE of PRAYER” -
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“Yes I am sure everyone who believes in “house churches’ will be jumping up and down proclaiming that the early church didn’t have church buildings”
jumping up and down, insulting language
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NANA,
150-It is none of your business and not up to you to decide how I use the curcumstances of my life. Guard your own life. I fI want to talk about my life I will. I don’t tell others what part of their lives they may talk about, etc.
The unspoken rule here seems to be that if you are part of the mainstream (way of doing church) then we can find trivia to argue at length. However, if you take issue with the way that most Christians operate, watch out, all insults are coming your way, adn we have the right to treat you however we want, all the while using the words of scripture.
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Reg – You have mentioned the book, Weapons of Mass Instruction at various times. Can you give us a summary of its main points, so that we can understand better where you’re coming from?
Also, let us all remember that disagreement – even strong disagreement – is not the same as an “attack”.
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150-
NANA,
And for me to have to tell you/others that it is none of your business about how I use the circumstances in my life, when and where I say what, etc., (because obviously, you don’t know me well enough to comment) makes me feel like I am talking to children.
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Reg,
Nana asked you some questions which may have hit a nerve, but that’s no reason to make such a silly comment as – “makes me feel like I am talking to children” – you know better.
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REG, if you mean my quoting of TimA, with whom I thought you agreed and had the same feeling myself, hoping it might be good advice as TimA must have, too. But it was no more presumptuous than your statements to others here.
I took your suggestion and googled Gatto, read a few of his essays and talked with a few homeschooling moms I know. He makes some valid criticisms of public schools versus education, but he only supports his complaints with anecdotes which don’t actually prove anything. He comes across as little more than a libertarian conspiracy-theorist.
When I heard that he unfairly demonizes Puritans and Calvinists, he might as well be attacking all reformed faiths, including Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., some of the very people who advocate the separation of school and state. And then I realized Gatto’s attraction for you.
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To have to tell adults what is my business and what is their business, where to draw those kinds of lines, telling this to grown adults makes me feel as if I am talking to children.
Karen,
Look it up on Amazon
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You may want to buy into Gatto’s bitterness, but let us worship in our own houses of prayer and you in yours. Just remember that they’ll know us by our love for each other.
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“When I heard that he unfairly demonizes Puritans and Calvinists, he might as well be attacking all reformed faiths, including Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., some of the very people who advocate the separation of school and state. And then I realized Gatto’s attraction for you.”
You went on hearsay?
I have not heard this nor read this from Gatto.
Where did you read me attacking Puirtians and Calvinists?
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Reg,
Nana said that she read it, she didn’t accuse you as you ask:
Reg, you are mixing up comments, this has happened before, it doesn’t serve any purpose – any one of us can unscramble the confusion.
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I likes what Gatto had to say about mass insturction and the dumbing down of the masses that occurs as a result.
I think that some of the bloggers on here are incapable of listening to other viewpoints, but insist on setting the agenda, the topic for discussion, no matter what others are saying. “We will change the subject of this conversation every time we talk.”
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She said that she HEARD IT!!!
“When I heard that he unfairly demonizes Puritans and Calvinists, he might as well be attacking all reformed faiths, including Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., some of the very people who advocate the separation of school and state. And then I realized Gatto’s attraction for you.”
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Reg
You can translate that into something other than what Nana said. She most certainly didn’t intimate that “Where did you read me attacking Puirtians and Calvinists?” –
Is there some reason why you must mix this up?
I don’t agree with Calvin on many issued, or his background, but I certainly love my brothers and sisters in Christ who attend Calvinst and Lutheran oriented churches.
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The point is, Victoria, why did NANA say
“When I heard that he unfairly demonizes Puritans and Calvinists, he might as well be attacking all reformed faiths, including Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc., some of the very people who advocate the separation of school and state.
And then I realized Gatto’s attraction for you.”
I am not attracted to demonizing the Puritans, etc., WHERE would she get this idea?
It is one thing to be respectfully inquisitive and seek out veiwpoints from others. It is another thing entirely to tear others apart with assumptions and inflammatory speech, like “jumping up and down” etc.
It is a shame that so many on here have nothing more than their denominational/institutional/theological guru loyalties to guide them in their discussion with other Christians.
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“To have to tell adults what is my business and what is their business, where to draw those kinds of lines, telling this to grown adults makes me feel as if I am talking to children.”
This wasn’t even directed at me, but I did find it to be insulting.
Many of us here share certain details of their lives. Some yesterday were sharing about having been sexually molested in their past. Nana has shared about a lovely reunion with the son she gave up for adoption many years ago.
If someone is asked a question, but doesn’t want to get into details, we understand when they say they’d rather not discuss it.
Your statement about talking to children, along with “…so many on here have nothing more than their denominational/institutional/theological guru loyalties to guide them…” (which you’ve said in different ways other times) shows a lack of respect for the people here.
It seems as if you are saying that none of us can think for ourselves, but only repeat what we’ve been taught. Others could say that you are only repeating ideas that you’ve read in certain books you mention. Either accusation would be unfair.
Many, if not most, of us have studied the Bible, & don’t agree with everything we hear from the pulpit or read in a book.
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Reg,
If Nana is correct that this man demonizes Calvinists, I wouldn’t be interested in anything he had to say either – Let me be specific:
I have written a great deal on Calvin, HOWEVER, that does not mean that I dislike those who believe in his doctrine, (I know many Calvinists and consider them my friends, sisters and brothers in Christ) – what IT DOES MEAN is that I will not follow someone who behaved and never repented of such deeds, I don’t trust Calvin to interpret the Scriptures because he doesn’t do so correctly in my opinion and that of many others.
Demonizing a whole group of people is wrong – speaking against Calvin or Luther’s deeds is not wrong.
YOU WROTE: ….. “It is a shame that so many on here have nothing more than their denominational/institutional/theological guru loyalties to guide them in their discussion with other Christians.”
Reg, what separates you from your statement above?
Who are the posters you are accusing, and who are the guru’s, name them – if you can’t than what you’re saying doesn’t make sense.
Tima did the same thing on other threads – taking a big brush and accusing churches and people without ever naming the church. In fact do either of you know the exact churches that each of us belong to? But….. you think you can call a pastor a “guru” without naming him? That brush might come back at you one of these days and paint your picture, with your name on it.
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REG, saying that I have nothing more than my “denominational/institutional/theological guru loyalties to guide” me in my discussions isn’t helpful. It also seems similar to the way Gatto (according to an editorial review) tries demonstrate “that the harm school inflicts is quite rational and deliberate, following high-level political theories constructed by Plato, Calvin, Spinoza, Darwin” et al, “which contend the term ‘education’ is meaningless because humanity is strictly limited by necessities of biology, psychology, and theology.” It makes me wonder if that isn’t similar to your broad-brush criticisms of how I worship and read scripture.
You didn’t attack Puritans or Calvinists, but critics of his last book have say that Gatto did and I don’t have time to immerse myself in all that negativity.
Maybe you could just enjoy being happy with your ideal of worship and stop judging others as inferior.
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“Maybe you could just enjoy being happy with your ideal of worship and stop judging others as inferior. ”
Good advice for you to follow…
And as for Gatto, you are not getting yout information from the source…
and as for negativity, you have spent time in it here, needlessly
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Reg, I just felt I had to defend myself and stand up for others I don’t know much better than you do, especially when it came to how they organize themselves and conduct their finances. That quote in 172 was from an approved review to promote his book on amazon. And I, like my friend Diane, was put off by what I read in his essays. But all that is much less important than you are. I wish you all His best and will continue to pray for you.
Peace………Nana.
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I think that if you read what Gatto’s most influential educational expericne was, you would be astounded!! From the Weapons of Mass Instruction,
“…back in the early 1940s during World War II, I walked through the industrial river town on Monongahela, PA several times a week at night, walked miles and miles with my mother and sister, Joanie. We walked only at night so nobody my mother had once known would notice her and her children peering into the lighted windows of homes she had once frequented as a guest. We were living in her hometown, unseen, because she was embarrassed at the failure of her marriage.
We were life anthropologists doing field studies, sister, and I, studying our mother in different circumstances than we usually saw her: dusting, doing laudry, washing dishes. And Mother was seeing her own early self through a different filter, too. Whatever our motives for repeating the same long route through the darkened hill streets over and over, I can’t remember, but I know I never tired of it. We were all happy as pigs in the moon that is young once only–though usually in pocket no more than a nickel with which to buy one candy bar which we broke into three shares.
Those walks were transcendental experiences of a very high order; even at an age when many experiences seemed transcendental, they were outstanding. As an old man, I now see they were easily the richest family experience I was ever to have. And my greatest educational adventure, too.
We took the last walk together around 1947. Beginning seven years later and continuing for four years afterward, I attended five colleges, two of them Ivy League, but my degree schooling proved to be a waste of time where intellectual development was concerned. I can’t seem to recall a single thing I learned at those famous universities, Cornell and Columbia; not a single class, not a single teacher. Yet I remember everything about those walks down to the tiniest details.
Each excursion covered roughly five miles. We wove in and out of the darkened hill streets, reaching zones of settlement I was only dimly aware existed. I still hear our footseps crunching the fall leaves of the winter snow, or sloshing through the spring rains. I can hear our hushed whispers. Every house had a story, and Mother knew all of them. Many had a symbol in the front window telling the world that some man inside had gone away off to the wars. In some windows there was a special symbol–I seem to remember it was a gold star like they used to give to the best schoolchildren for exceptional work–a symbol which declared the man had died in service to the rest of us.
The presence of death on our walks added something wonderfully deep and profound to the rambles, a sadness reminding me at the corners of consciousness that someday my mother would be dead, too, and my sister, and myself.
From time to time Mother would reminisce what a particular soldier or sailor, once her schoolmate, had been like as a living boy. For a little fellow this was like being confronted with ghosts. It was stunning drama. How dull those walks, and those deaths, made all my toys. In the face of a dramatic reality that ennobled, even the most ordinary toys were less than insignificant; they were humiliating by contrast, uspeakably childsih. Real stories help a boy grow up; toys beyond a point reached in early childhood retard the hard road to maturity.
I learned more about Mother and Sister from those walks than I could fully comprehend back then; today I realize that the personal information gathered incidentally as we walked was the most important data I was ever to have about who we Gattos and Zimmers really were. The walks were open source learning of the highest order. I’d gladly trade Cornell and Columbia for more of them.
Real education can only begin out of a foundation of self-awareness. Know the truth of yourself or you are nothing but a pathetic human resource.
John Gatto, Weapons of Mass Instruction, pp. 58-60
(And don’t bother commenting back to me about the fact that I am divorced and need to stop talking about it, that talking about life’s successes and failures are going to ruin my second marriage–or to bury my past so that I don’t defile the Christians that are listening, ro whatever spin you put on it this time, jsut skp it.)
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Using Gatto as an example, I propose the following challenge. Try to see if the man has a valid point to make. A point that might not come to you in the context that you prefer to receive it!!
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Nana – If you wouldn’t mind, could you drop me an e-mail at keko11361@cox.net, so I can e-mail back a short note?
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I will, Reg, in fact am in the process. One of the reasons his name got my attention I finallly realized was that I was in NYS until a couple years ago and remember his op-ed in the WSJ when he quit (or so he “thought”) and that he ran for the legislature. I’ll probably not be back here until tomorrow (Town Hall meeting tonight). But listen, I had no intention of what you mentioned in the end of 175. That doesn’t meant I won’t come up with some brilliant advice later on
but none of that was even on my radar…..fear not.
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Gladly, KO, shortly.
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Reg, up way too late and thinking about you. The Town hall meeting w/my Congressman was rather disappointing in its shortness. I’ve already emailed him my suggestion to allow more time for questions.
Sweet dreams and sunshine for us in the morning’s new day.
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As for John Gatto’s life experiences,perhaps he values these experiences most now that he is old because that is the season of life when they have become the most visible and hence valuable. His post high school experiences served him well during other seasons in his life. Hhowever, who is to say that the previous experiences did not pave the way for the later and make him a better teacher?
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NANA
Be sure not to let what others are emailing you keep you up at night. And be sure not to let your past (the past of one day’s blogging, or anything else that happened that day) keep you up at night or affect you. Only scripture may affect you.
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REG 181, I couldn’t agree with you more. The pages you quoted seemed a very warm and poignant memory of an old man of much experience.
You are very sweet w/that 182 good advice and so correct. Sometimes things seem a little more urgent than they really are, except now while I have a chance to borrow my son Scott’s car for grocery shopping
later……
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Reg – It is indeed interesting how God uses one’s experiences & education (both institutional & “life” education) to shape one’s life. Our various life experiences shape our perspective on all sorts of issues & matters. We Christians need to filter our perspectives through the Word of God, for discernment on how true our perspectives really are, & to see where we need to change.
You have mentioned more than once about how the Bible tells us that God sees us as righteous, not merely dirty sinners. That was a reminder to me, & I have reminded my husband, who tends to have negative thoughts, of the same thing.
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“NANA
Be sure not to let what others are emailing you keep you up at night. And be sure not to let your past (the past of one day’s blogging, or anything else that happened that day) keep you up at night or affect you. Only scripture may affect you. ”
This was intended as sarcasm since I was told, by you, not to let me past affect me in certain ways
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Reg, I don’t know what to say and don’t recall telling you anything that specific. I totally missed your sarcasm and assumed you were being thoughtful and nice, that you sincerely meant it. Now I don’t know what to think now. I’ve had a busy day of errands and will soon drive my youngest granddaughter Samantha to her soccer practice. Do you have children involved in any sports? This is new to me as Scott was only involved in basketball through his (christian) school. These grand-darlings of mine have to be driven everywhere. So be it. How’s your day going?
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147-”Who is John Gatto? Remember not to let the hurtful situations from the past be the basis for what you do now.”
NANA,
this is what I talking about.
182-
NANA
Be sure not to let what others are emailing you keep you up at night. And be sure not to let your past (the past of one day’s blogging, or anything else that happened that day) keep you up at night or affect you. Only scripture may affect you.
The point is that our pasts do affect us. They are to be used of God and not ignored or shut in a closet so that they don’t offend others. If someone doesn’t want to read about my past they can skip my post. Others have told me how helpful it is to read about my past when it is similar to their own. This should be common sense for all of us so that we don’t go around telling certian people that they may not talk about their past.
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OK, Reg, I see now that you elaborated on my 147 where I was quoting TimA. Good advice, regardless. I wasn’t being sarcastic and was happier before you said that you were.
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I know that you are not being sarcastic. It is unrealistic advice, however. At least in the way that I hear it.
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Reg – The way I understood that sentence – “Remember not to let the hurtful situations from the past be the basis for what you do now.” – was not that you shouldn’t talk/write about your past, but what the last part says, that your past shouldn’t be the basis for what you do now.
Of course, there are lessons that were learned that should be kept, but none of us should react & act based on past hurts. Those that do tend to live in bitterness, defensiveness, & pain.
That’s how I took it anyhow.
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The past is going to be part of the basis for what I do now. We all learn by our past. If your finger gets burned on the stove, you are more careful around hot things.
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Lets be careful of how we look upon situations we have NEVER FACED, never dealt with. It’s easy to give advice to someone who has gone through a trial that we haven’t been made to endure.
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Reg,
How sad. I was surprised by your “advice” last night because you clearly don’t live by it (not letting your past embitter you), but sometimes one knows more than one does. And to find your words were simply sarcasm, and not meant as kindness . . . well, that’s sad, is all I can say.
Yes, the past affects us, but it shouldn’t enslave us. In fact, our past should be part of what God uses to grow us to be more like Him. For example, we are told that God comforts us so that we can comfort others with the same comfort God gave us. So an abused wife can someday be in a position to minister to other abused wives (or others with a different sort of pain), and those who have been rejected know how to reach out to others and not reject them, and those who have lost a loved one to cancer, or been orphaned young, or who have otherwise experienced suffering and pain, can minister to others. But letting such suffering harden into bitterness helps no one . . . not even the one who suffered and then became bitter.
I’m sad for you, and for those who suffer with you.
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We can PRAY for those who have endured pain, which has been inflicted by another person – pain that could have been avoided.
All the words in the world will not always do much good, but the HOLY Spirit can comfort and heal the pain that hurts so bad for the injured.
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#190 Very well put Karen. I find that when I let past injuries dictate how I will regard the present situation, I’m not making the best use of my trials. But in the end, everyone must walk their own path in these things, and sometimes the best we can do is Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Rom.12:15— That and pray for healing. We all need to feel that the body of Christ cares about us.
Blessings and peace to all.
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Victoria (& Reg) -
What I had in mind is more along the lines of what Cheryl wrote, learning from the past but not being enslaved & embittered by it. And I did mention that the lessons learned should be kept.
Maybe we have not all gone through the same hurts & tragedies, but the Bible is true for whatever one has gone through, God’s healing is available for all who have suffered, & God’s grace is sufficient for us all.
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People don’t need “friends” with yet another tidy little word lesson. Jesus wept.
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What is it you want from us here, Reg?
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In remembering all the trauma, mistakes, heartbreaks, ignorance and sin in my past, I can’t give God enough glory that I now understand His forgivenes and comfort and how He stood by me through it all and has beautifully, perfectly knit them all together into a real-life legacy of learning not only for me, but for those I love – near and far. Doesn’t He shape our experiences into who we are and who He wants us to be? I think so. I can’t always relate to the details of others’ tragedies, but I know God gives me compassion for their pain and sends me to my knees.
Jesus wept not only because of rejection by His people, but for what He saw to come. That I can’t relate to even in His human incarnation. But the Holy Spirit moves me in groaning over how I continue to hurt Him whether I intend to or not. Yet, He loves me.
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What a wonderful testimony, Nana! And I can sure relate to it! When I look back over my life, and see some of the very difficult things He led me through, I feel the same way.
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Nana – Oh yes, I agree. God has brought me through so many things, some “big”, some “little”, & has changed me so much over the years.
Several years ago, I found out my husband had been lying & hiding something from me, I felt betrayed. (It was not adultery, nor anything sexual.)
I clearly remember one day folding laundry, & as I thought of how I had been betrayed, I could feel my love for my husband begin to grow cold. At almost the same time, I sensed the Holy Spirit telling me that if I continued dwelling in the place of “I’ve been betrayed”, then my marriage, as well as hubby & I, would greatly suffer. Our marriage had already been through a huge hurdle years earlier, & I knew I didn’t want to go through that again.
The Holy Spirit told me to forgive there & then, & to reject any further thoughts of having been betrayed. Not because it wasn’t true, but because my husband was truly repentant & we both needed me to forgive him.
God has done a miracle in our marriage, He delivered my husband from being an alcoholic, & He saved my husband’s life (long story). God has also taught me so much about resting & trusting in Him. And so much more.
To Him be all the glory!
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Reg, your analogy of the hot stove reminded me of different phases I’ve gone through in life. First, like a cat, I’d never touch it again. Then, like a 2-year old I’d touch it again and blame the stove for burning me. Laater, I’d learn to use it for what it’s intended. Now I might wonder what I did that broke it instead of accepting the fact that, far removed from God, I might need a new one. No analogy is perfect, of course, but I’ve seen myself growing thorugh various attitudes and experiences that I can’t go back and change but have led me to the safer place I’m in now. This might now make much sense to you as I’m writing off the top of my head and heart. But I’m getting stronger in God’s armor and fighting the good fight – with a lot of help from family and frinds. Maybe you can relate to some of the generalities of this.
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Karen, as you well know, your difficult marriage of ups and downs and ups again is not uncommon, but all don’t have have a listening ear to True Guidance. I certainly didn’t. After a whirlwind courtship I found myself pledged to a man I hadn’t come to really know before the wedding. When things got tough he left me and his infant son. Then I “brilliantly” got involved with another man, not so different in simply wanting a play thing. I’ve not totally given up on men, but – oh, gosh – God has been so good in leading me in contentment.
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Nana – Contentment, with godliness, really is the key, isn’t it?
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So when it comes to worship, God knows my earnestly grateful heart wherever I am. I have not become an official member of the church I attend with Scott & family on the grounds of disagreeing with a few finer points of its beliefs, but I worship there as well and adoringly as anywhere among His followers. That may not make total sense to everyone, but I have peace that God understands and honors it.
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Well, Karen, contentment for me is not always a constant. Like tonight, I didn’t like the way my meatloaf came out. And this morning I decided I didn’t mind getting older, I’m just not too crazy about the aging process
And I do feel lonely at times. These are fleeting negative feelings before I remember and reassess my priorities. The race we run can be new each day, just like overnight tears that give way to joy in the morning. I very much appreciate the new cyberfriends I’m making here on worldmagblogs – a totally unexpected and rewarding facet of my life now.
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Victoria, points well taken and remind me what a burden it was when people would tell me, “If I can do it anybody can,” a sincerely well-meant encouragement that I’ve often used. It just doesn’t always apply. My parents used to tell me that I could be anything I wanted – a very scary prospect for a young girl who didn’t know who she really was or wanted in the first place. But these are all forgivable statements in retrospect, understood and forgiven by growing in God’s grace. I had a terrible time letting a lot of bitterness go, especially for my ex-husband. Then one day I think the Holy Spirit just made me sick of it and I asked him on facebook if it wasn’t time we could just be friends. I still call him “Fred” instead of Scott’s “father and I won’t beat myself up for that. We should all be able to write bestselling books on things like these but there are probably enough already and one-to-ones are what most Christians are probably best at.
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Nana – I think that contentment (along with patience) is a moment-by-moment choice. Like you said, we get disappointed or frustrated, then remember to reassess our priorities.
Glad to be one of your new cyberfriends.
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Me, too, Karen. You are so generous in opening up your life and heart to others. I know from personal experience that this isn’t always easy since we can’t always know who is trustworthy. We’ve all been burned by trusting the wrong people but, then again, we’ve also entertained angels unaware and I’m perfectly fine with that. I don’t need to know how God does or doesn’t use seeds planted here and there.
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Some people need more help along the way. It’s easy to sit back and say how one would handle this problem or that one, but until one walks in the shoes of another they really aren’t the expert.
Reg has told her story often. I can’t imagine what it must have been like to have four children and a wayward husband, one that couldn’t be trusted, and that would not own up to his deeds. Top that off with those from the ‘get go’ in the church who didn’t support her and you have pain, real pain.
I’m confident that one day, maybe very soon the memory will fade enough to give some relief. Talking about ones pain doesn’t mean their bitter necessarily, it means it still hurts. It’s like someone who has a very serious physical problem that will eventually heal, but often the real discomfort cannot be forgotten, it just plain hurts.
We don’t know what goes on in another’s life, as in this particular situation there maybe a whole lot more than what we know. What we can do, as I’ve said before is PRAY.
Let’s stop with the ‘Dutch uncle’ posts, they have never worked in the past.
GOD bless all of us as we come to HIM the mighty healer, of all hurts and sorrows -
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Reg 181, I think I read that John Gatto actually wrote something along those lines regarding the past influencing his current opinions. His childhood remembrances certainly illustrate that. His criticisms and complaints of our current educational system are shared by many, many thinking people – parents and otherwise. I can’t agree with his conspiratorial leanings though, as I think people in general do not seem to stay that organized, especially over so many decades. More logical to me is the existence of consensus among disparate groups that have similar goals with different ways of reaching them. Does Gatto implicate teachers’ unions in the current dismal condition of public education? This is where I fault the continuing downward spiral of bureaucratic failure and ineptitude in encouraging teachers who want to teach instead of a tenured job for retirement. Thank God we have the freedom to homeschool and ssend our kids to private schools. And parents should be monitoring their kids’ education wherever they are becoming involved in local school boards as well.
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212 cont’d: Where I think Gatto is mistaken, from what I’ve read, is unrealistically suggesting that our current system should be completely done away with, instead of working within it. That is what hundreds of thousands of parents are already doing on local levels. Small student groups and lessons that teach from practical life applications are also being used all over the country. But in the end, it’s up to the parents’ involvement in any size structure. Don’t you think?
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Well, I’ve found that Lutherans usually make better coffee for fellowship after church. And shame on those who don’t
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Come, come, Stubob, Jesus isn’t my husband. He’s not MY individual husband, that is–only in a corporate, mystical sense and insofar as I am a part of the Church is he my husband. I am not Jesus’ wife.
Or is Jesus the biggest bigamist of all time?
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XION from 140
“Since you are being so literal, tell me if you ever speak to one another without singing. Would that be a violation of holy writ? Precisely how many psalms or hymn….”
I find it hard to understand how this long rant of irrelevant questions is perceived by you to be substantive in our dialogue. I simply suggest you pay attention to, and seek to obey 2 words God inspired in His revelation multiple times (one another), and you accuse me of legalism, and think I have legalistic answers to questions the text says nothing about. I am only appealing to you to apply the words of scripture that appear. If God thought “one another” dynamic was unimportant to Him, He would have left it out. He put it in there many times to help you get the picture. Your comfort in tradition is trumping God’s Word.
“Obviously I’m not saying anything one does is acceptable worship.” 1st paragraph
“God doesn’t really prescribe any explicit method of worship.” 2nd paragraph
Clearly these 2 contradictory statements tell me you are either confused or are having difficulty in stating what you really believe. Here are 3 simple statements I believe:
1. God has not stated every detail about how we are to worship or not to worship.
2. God has given us some details that He finds very important to help us understand Him and His purposes.
3. We need to pay attention to the details He has given us.
Simple enough? Therefor we need to pay attention to and do “one another” dynamic. This is an obedience thing, not a legalistic thing. We cannot say we love Him if we do not obey Him. It’s all about love, not laws and legal compliance.
“But your belief that you have some special knowledge that makes you superior to all others is a form of gnosticism.”
Now the gnosticism card is played. I knew you had more cards. Gnosticism involves special revelation outside of scripture. I am offering no special revelation. It’s all there for you and others to read. There is no revelation regarding pulpits and pews for lecture /expert driven worship gatherings. Where is your “special revelation” and “special knowledge” to hold on to these practices as “pleasing God”? I’m jesting here. I know one-way communication is not driven by gnosticism. It’s driven by men’s traditions, money, comfort, and God’s grace allowing it to accomplish some of His purposes in spite of it’s short fall.
“But you would spend your life shaking the bony finger of contention against everyone who does not think exactly like you.”
The “shaking the bony finger of contention” card comes out. You have already forgotten Heb. 10:24,25. I am spurring you on to love and good works in one another dynamic. The grace of God allows me to receive all the bogus cards you have played and not be angry or disgusted at you.
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Nana,
On the topic of hymns:
#7 on my list, as well as others on the same list and at least one other I didn’t mention are on Michael Card’s Starkindler CD.
I also like El Shaddai.
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Tima,
You and others who are opposed to medium and large churches keep coming back to the “one another” commands–and it seems to me that much of this is simply your assumption that churches with pulpits and pews don’t obey these. It hasn’t been my experience in my own churches. Th presence of a more “formal” worship service doesn’t deny opportunities for more informal interaction, or in fact for some of that within the service. When Paul preached so long that a young man fell asleep and fell out the window and died, was Paul disobeying the “one another” commands? Why do so many of you view preaching with such suspicion, and how indeed (as someone asked earlier) does the shepherd guard the flock if he doesn’t actually teach it, as Jesus and Paul both did?
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Tima,
Just to continue upon what Cheryl related. Paul preached for a very long time. There is no reference here that anyone interrupted him in any way. I’ve been in church services when it continued for a long time.
We can expound on where the Word of GOD is preached and taught, but that isn’t the point — the point is that GOD’s Word is given and taught and people hear and and believe, repent and become Believers whether they sit on pews, sofa’s, chairs, floors, or rugs it doesn’t make one bit of difference – ONLY that GOD’s Word is spread and all hear of Christ our redeemer.
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Victoria – You used the phrase “Dutch uncle” posts. I was not familiar with that, so I looked it up.
“Dutch uncle is a term for a person who issues frank, harsh, and severe comments and criticism to educate, encourage, or admonish someone.”
Which posts have been Dutch uncle posts, in your estimation?
I’ve seen you mention previous words about bitterness. If you are referring to my comment in #190, please note that I was giving my interpretation of what someone else had said. Also, the part about bitterness was about people in general, not anyone in specific.
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I have been wondering why when Tima, with whom Reg usually agrees, said, “Don’t let the hurtful situations from the past be the basis for what you do now”, she had no comment, but when Nana repeated it, she took offense.
After that sentence, Tima says, “Let the power and richness of the scriptures be the basis. Write them down and memorize them so you can pass them on to others. The hurtful things in the past are only a cause for thanksgiving that God woke you up with some suffering to look beyond your comfort zone.”
I think that is good advice. It’s along the lines of what I was getting at when I said (in #197), “Maybe we have not all gone through the same hurts & tragedies, but the Bible is true for whatever one has gone through, God’s healing is available for all who have suffered, & God’s grace is sufficient for us all.”
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I forgot to mention that the definition of “Dutch uncle” I gave was the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on it.
Since Victoria & some others don’t like Wikipedia, here is what came up at Dictionary.com…
Dutch uncle
?
Dutch uncle
–noun
a person who criticizes or reproves with unsparing severity and frankness.
Origin:
1820–30
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
Dutch uncle
n. A stern, candid critic or adviser.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Victoria 116 – I can just see the ads in the Saturday newspaper religion section:
Worship With Us For Good Coffee Afterwards
Early Service Coffee Before Worship
World’s Best Pew Coffee While You Worship
Wednesday Night Coffee Worship at Joe’s
? ?
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Nana – But can you imagine if there’s a big move of the Holy Spirit, people start jumping up out of their pews, & coffee goes flying everywhere?
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Karen, you might not be of an age where you notice this yet, but reality hits me right between the eyes when older expressions and sayings bring a blank stare from younger generations.
I’m also reminded of the days when we literally wore our “Sunday best” to church. Even poor people spruced up. I am getting used to more casual fashions and don’t mean to imply that either one or the other enhances or detracts from worship. So how do I fit in without sticking out?
I’ve arrived at a happy medium, but I still start getting ready for church on Saturday night, including studying the scriptures for Sunday’s sermon. That won’t change.
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Good one, Karen, I almost my cup right now. Feels good to be laughing out loud! “A merry heart”……eh?
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Karen,
“Dutch Uncle” has been used for a long time, having a NUMBER of definitions …… to someone who needs what the “Dutch Uncle” perceives as his/her superior advice.
GOD heals, but sometimes it isn’t instant as we know with physical illness, or those diseases within the body – in the same way, emotional pain which has been inflicted upon someone isn’t healed right away either – sometimes it takes time, ….. more time than those observing care to consider.
Because you don’t feel another’s particular pain due to their circumstances, doesn’t mean you understand it, nor do you know how it may have affected their life. You cannot tell another person how to FEEL, to do so is putting yourself in a self righteous superior position of authority.
A woman who has four children (as in this instance) has a constant reminder of what happened….. the reason for this is most likely the interaction between an ex-husband regarding the children, (even if they are becoming older) – children often take sides, off-and-on which again is a reminder. Children have a way sometimes of bringing up the past. I’ve known women who have been left, divorced, and adultery has been the main issue – the kids often don’t understand, and the mother is left with all the pain to deal with, even though it’s been a number of years.
If you feel compelled to carry this personal advice on to someone who is already hurting, go ahead, but I am positive it will not make you happy, nor will it help the person you feel needs your unsolicited advice. It’s one thing to say something …… we all have at different times on different threads ….. it’s another thing to believe you understand it to be bitterness, but instead COULD BE pain and sorrow. You nor I, or anyone else knows the whole story. I suggest that those who don’t want to know, skip the posts that you don’t like (we certainly skip a few others on this blog)
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The ghost of marriage past still raises its ugly head and haunts me when I truly believed that pain was gone until I hear my son call my ex-husband “father,” as he should actually. But I have to remind myself to revisit my issue with that in prayer again. It isn’t easy.
Hardly a comparable issue with many others’, but pain and sorrow remind me of REG’s citing of Luke 19:41 when Jesus again laments over Jerusalem “…and wept over it.” I can barely stand the thought of Him crying.
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Nana, even young people quip “Dutch Uncle talk” – it’s a common thing to say and to complain about among any age group. Perhaps it is more prevalent in some families.
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But only WE will chuckle over the fantasy of “Church Coffee Wars.”
I might do my own poll on some other phrases
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Nana, I’ve never heard of “Church Coffee Wars” in my life, and as a pastor’s daughter I’m surprised after all the churches I have visited that I’ve never heard the phrase.
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Recalling all of Prov. 17:22
“A merry heart doeth good like a medicine, but a broken spirit drieth the bones.”
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Tsk, tsk….maybe you missed #224. Couldn’t be worse than worship wars, could it? (Don’t spill your coffee on you keyboard.)
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Victoria, my mistake at 224 where I meant 216.
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Karen, you might not be of an age where you notice this yet, but reality hits me right between the eyes when older expressions and sayings bring a blank stare from younger generations.
Nana #226
Actually, this is one reason that this site has been so enjoyable. There are so many posters who have some of the same traditions and phrases (particularly Southern) that I don’t hear in the Northeast. I almost immediately felt right at home.
Karen, thanks for exlpaining the ‘Dutch uncle’ term. I had never heard of it or heard anyone use it before.
Now about the Church Coffe Wars: might I recommend a latte since the coffee stain on the carpet might be less noticable.
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I didn’t know the term Dutch uncle either. I associated it with Dutch treat, and imagined a kindly uncle enjoying an ice cream sundae with me. Thanks, Karen, for looking it up for us.
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“You cannot tell another person how to FEEL, to do so is putting yourself in a self righteous superior position of authority.”
Victoria – I agree. If you are intimating that I have done that, please show me where.
“…it’s another thing to believe you understand it to be bitterness…”
Again, my comment about bitterness was in the context of my interpretation of what somebody else stated, & it was in a general sense, not to anyone specifically. Can anyone else see this?
“GOD heals, but sometimes it isn’t instant as we know with physical illness, or those diseases within the body – in the same way, emotional pain which has been inflicted upon someone isn’t healed right away either – sometimes it takes time, ….. more time than those observing care to consider.”
Yup, I agree with this, too. I have experienced this myself, & am currently in a situation which definitely calls for “longsuffering”. Sometimes it is quite wearying, but I keep my eyes on Jesus & His word, & accept the counsel & encouragement given to me, even if it is not quite on the mark at times. When people “mean well”, it is good to graciously give them the benefit of the doubt.
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D.J. & Pauline – You are welcome. And I’m glad I’m not the only one who hadn’t heard the term.
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#238
Karen O,
I took your comment about bitterness to be in a general sense, not to anyone specifically. You used phrases like “none of us” and “those that do” which to me are speaking very generally.
Of course, I read your comment in the wider context of what I know about you from both what you comment on this blog, and from your emails to me.
I am not going to try to comment any further on what you or anyone else meant by what they wrote. I find that trying to guess at what is behind what anyone else says is leads to misunderstandings, examples of which abound here.
I may have opinions on what someone meant, and I am sometimes tempted to try to clarify what someone else said. But such attempts – by me or anyone else – so often lead to greater misunderstandings (perhaps because someone is going to read into my clarification something about my motive in jumping into the conversation), that I generally think it wiser to stay out.
It would be different if we were talking in person, and had the advantage of body language and tone of voice, which I’ve read convey as much as 90% of what we say, far more than the words we use. I find myself participating here less and less, especially when the subject becomes one (or more) of the people commenting.
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That’s very wise of you, Pauline.
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Karen, I repeat my 210. I have no doubt you wrote generally by quoting someone else because you have endured a lot and want share the source of your own strength for others’ questions and dilemmas. This internet medium of blogging limits us to the falibility of words that can be read differently than they are written.
Victoria hit the nail on the head when she said that we can’t always discern bitterness from pain and sorrow. Sometimes my own takes me by surprise. And there’s the rub for me – in how I read the words. For all of us, prayer comes first, last and always.
This world is full of Norwegian Nanas, crazy aunts and Dutch Uncles – and we’re all sisters and brothers in Christ. Thank God. Amen.
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DJ – a brilliant suggestion for lattes, as long as they’re Lutheran – eh?
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VICTORIA & CHERYL D
“Paul preached for a very long time. There is no reference here that anyone interrupted him in any way.”
Regarding Acts 20:7-20
Thank you for your thoughtful question. I know Victoria may not like my answer, but this one of several instances where it is true that most translators work with an institutionalized filter. It’s not intentional necessarily but often they cannot think outside their cultural box. The greek word used in both verses 7 and 11 for Paul’s talking is “dialegomai”. This is the word from which we get dialogue which is two-way communication. The only version I have seen that translates this into “converse” or “discuss” is the NRSV which I don’t use ever. You can see for yourself by going to blueletterbible.org – go to Acts 20: 7-11 and click on the blue box with C in it to show you the greeks words and definitions. I am not making this up. It’s all there.
There is no scripture that specifies one-way communication, not even for the multiple greek words that are translated preach or teach have any literal specification for this kind of communication. It is TOTAL assumed by men’s tradition. Meanwhile there are multiple occurrences of church gathering instruction that specifies “one another”. This reality MUST have a demonstration in the gathering of believers. It’s full meaning and the spiritual identity truths that it fulfills must be obeyed. It makes a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the RELATIONAL DEBTH of spiritual teaching. Bible teaching is not merely information transfer. It is not merely a matter of words going in an ear. It requires mutual relational connecting of an intimate kind – just like what goes on in the Godhead.
It is a complete systemic change from man driven, sight oriented dynamics. We we are to walk by faith NOT by sight. You cannot see from your experience how one another teaching, admonishing, encouraging, spuring, speaking and singing by ordinary brothers and sisters can be more powerful than a lecture from highly trained orator. It’s in the Word. It must be held onto by faith, not sight or experience. When a gathering of believers is driven by the power of scripture + mutual relationship, there is no longer any performance orientation, style preoccupation or money which leads to worship comparisons, competitions, and “worship wars”.
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Thank you for your answer, TIMA. There do seem to be quite a few sermons in Scripture; I used but one example. I doubt it’s a translation bias, honestly, but I respect your answer. And I repeat my assertion that I’m regularly part of “one another” fellowship at church; I see no need for it to be “either/or.”
For sure the house church movement does not stop “worship wars,” however, as is regularly demonstrated on this blog. You may not have a sense that house churches are the only legitimate option, I don’t know, but if you do, that’s definitely “worship war” territory. And certainly some on here do believe that’s the only legitimate way to worship. We really do need to see other believers who worship God in spirit and truth as having freedom to attend larger or smaller, more formal or more informal, churches than we ourselves do. We’re all part of the same body, if we know Christ as our Saviour, and other than the basic call to worship God correctly (which can be done in a house church or a cathedral), the details of how large or how small our gathering, or whether or not we have a paid pastor, are far less important. I don’t personally like the electric guitar, but that’s a personal preference, and truly, I think the size of a congregation isn’t much more significant.
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You find it needful to use language such as “think outside their cultural box” ? – Tima, the Word of GOD and it’s translation is not a box nor do you live in a box anymore than I do. That sort of mindset or thought process will lead you NO WHERE, and will not help you come to any conclusions except the boxes you have developed for yourself.
Tima, your reference to “institutionalized filter” is no different than what you have stated in the past which is ““All the translators translate with a bias that distorts God’s revelation.”
This sort of debate is normally pursued by those who delight in turning the words of the Bible, believing themselves to be wise. If one takes that approach, then you can make the words mean whatever you like, pretending that you KNOW more about the Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Aramaic than those who translated the Word of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls were found to match up to what we already had, before they were found.
We have the Word, it is up to us whether we want to accept it or reject it. There are over 5,500 manuscripts for the New Testament, they match up 99%. The small differences are spelling. When you realize how miraculous the Old Testament is, and the findings of the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls, one begins to understand the POWER of GOD to keep HIS Word pure. Nothing has changed, it is what HE wants it to be.
Can you imagine GOD Almighty sending HIS Son to die for our sins, and then letting the Scriptures go adrift. Then again, look at the ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ how HE proves the power of HIS Hand on the Word. Now look at the OT prophecy and its coming to fruition in the New Testament regarding the birth and death of the LORD Jesus Christ. It all fits, there isn’t a piece out of place. That’s the miracle, that’s what HE gave us so that we might know the TRUTH.
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I had never heard the term “Dutch Uncle” either. Sometimes it is necessary to be frank and direct, other times it is just cruel. Everyone has pain in their life, and we should all try not to cause unneccessary pain to others through our thoughtless comments. I do my best, but the tongue is almost impossible to tame. If my remarks come across as harsh, I’m sorry. They are spoken with a gentle tone of voice, and not intended to injure anyone.
I really appreciate this blog and all those who contribute to it. After days on end with my kids, it’s nice to have some adult conversation. Sometimes I will have to disappear for a while because I’m very busy with all my kids (and other things like paying bills). So don’t think I got mad and left.
It’s 1:39 a.m. and I just got home an hour ago. The kids are all in bed, and the house is nice and quiet. Perfect time for some blogging. Too bad I have to get up early in the morning. I’ll look forward to reading all of y’all’s comments tomorrow night.
R-
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Rossignol – it’s just now midnight on the West Coast, sleep well, talk to you tomorrow
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I chimed in on this thread long before I knew anything of (and was astounded by) the controversial topics discussed here. “Worship Wars” among the LCMS, can indeed be sinful in dividing the unity of the body of Christ anywhere and make me so sad on that account. Disagreements leading to such detrimental divisiveness come from who Norwegians used to call “the old man,” the devil.
The last LCMS church I attended because it was the most convenient on a bus route, irritated me most when the Pastor ridiculed our President from the pulpit. Hymns, songs and the liturgical order of worship I enjoyed and believed they were more important. God knew my heart as I worshipped Him freely with joy, love and peace among my congregation – before church, during church, after church, Wednesday nights and all other Bible studies and worship opportunities in between.
Having been apprised of previous threads (thanks to Victoria & Karen O), this “one another” movement seems to be “another gospel,” not maintaining the unity of Believers and another lie from the “old man.” I stand to be convinced or corrected if I am wrong, but setting us AGAINST “one another” on the basis of new revelation is wrong.
I am not a new Christian or Bible scholar, so I stand on His tried and True revelation and the wisdom of His Holy Spirit.
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Nana,
Thank you for what you have written.
I have been saddened for the past 20 plus years at the divisiveness within the Church. In many cases it has nothing to do with doctrine, but constant complaints that have nothing to do with understanding GOD’s Word and study, but instead HOW its done.
I too have been a Christian for a long time – I believe strongly that as Churches strive to teach the Word straight from the Bible, praying and trusting Christ – looking after those who are unable to help themselves, doing the work of an evangelist we will do far more than deciding who’s church needs and over-haul. The only church that needs an over-haul is the one who isn’t teaching about Christ, who wastes precious time on what the world is doing, not what we can do to reach the lost.
Those who are constantly worrying about surveys and what the world thinks of the church are wasting precious time. Jesus didn’t tell us to ask the world what they thought, HE told us to preach and spread HIS Gospel to THEM.
2 Corinthians 13:5 came to me just a short time ago as I was studying and asking GOD to guide me . . “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” . . I believe each of us need to “examine” ourselves.
I have more to say, but for now, I’ll let this settle.
Again Nana, I appreciate your words – you sound just like those I have known since childhood, I miss them.
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Cheryl-245-
As for you, you are qutie possilby the most godly woman I have never met. You are omniscient, omni-present, and I am sure there are more, but I will stop with the ones that come easily to mind reading that last post of yours!!
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Well, Reg, you’ve done nothing with your sarcasm but prove my point, that believers in house churches don’t stop “worship wars,” but are often very susceptible to encouraging them, by refusing to accept those who attend larger churches as brothers and sisters who are legitimately worshiping the same God. Was that your purpose?
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omniscient
Definition:
Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
1. One having total knowledge.
2. Omniscient God.
omnipresent
Definition:
1. always present everywhere: continuously and simultaneously present throughout the whole of creation
Reg, are you sure you meant to say such things about a human, which are only attributed to GOD Almighty
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Cheryl,
I’m not used to hearing that sort of “sarcasm” from a fellow Christian – I was dismayed to read it.
We can pray about this situation, it’s more powerful than anything you or I can say – but then you already know that.
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#217 TimA “I am spurring you on to love and good works in one another dynamic. The grace of God allows me to receive all the bogus cards you have played and not be angry or disgusted at you.”
Thank you. And I’m not sure you realize this, but I don’t entirely disagree with you as I said in #126.
As for the bogus cards, I would call it a literary exercise of taking what you say to its logical conclusion in the hope that you might notice some flaws in your thinking. Do I think you are a gnostic or a legalist? Probably not. However, you are strongly averse to all forms of worship except your own. That sounds self-righteous to me, and it sounds like you think you have some special knowledge that every other Christian has missed. That sounds a little cultish.
I am thankful for liberty in Christ that allows you to worship as you will and as I said before I think it is beautiful. Praise God! But why do you not allow others that same liberty?
Let me ask this, “What is your definition of preaching?” Is preaching something appropriate for Christians to do? Jesus, John and all the apostles practiced this.
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#244 TimA There is no scripture that specifies one-way communication, not even for the multiple greek words that are translated preach or teach have any literal specification for this kind of communication. It is TOTAL assumed by men’s tradition.
Somehow I missed this post of yours regarding the word PREACH. You are correct that Acts 20:7 uses dialegomai, which means to dispute, debate, reason with. The ESV (the Bible I use) says, “Paul talked with them”.
Most churches do have “one another” dialog in the form of Sunday School or home Bible studies. So no one disputes that fellowship and dialog has a prominent place in Christianity.
However, your statement above that says all occurrences of preach mean dialog is simply untrue. Here are other occurrences of preaching and its meaning.
- dialoegomai (13 occurrences) talk, dispute, debate, reason with
- kerusso (61 occurrences) publish, proclaim, herald
- euaggelizo (55 occurrences) bring good news, to announce glad tidings, preach the gospel (i.e. good news)
- kataggello (17 occurrences) announce, declare, promulgate, make known
Aren’t most of these one-way communication? Proclaiming, heralding, announcing, declaring, publishing. So out of the 146 occurrences of these words for preach, 133 of them are not dialoegomai. That word is only translated as preach twice even in the KJV.
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Thanks, Xion, for 256. I don’t get into discussions on original languages, but there is so much preaching in the New Testament that seems to be one-way (or at least mostly) . . . including Pentecost, the Sermon on the Mount, Stephen’s last sermon, and many more. In some of these cases the audience was mostly unbelievers, but the idea that a pastor isn’t ever called on to preach doesn’t fit the New Testament. And the idea of doing away with pastors / teaching elders altogether certainly does not. But I can “argue” only from the English, so I didn’t try to get into it.
Thanks, Victoria. I can’t imagine even in sarcasm labeling someone with God’s incomunicable attributes, at least not unless they clearly seemed to ascribe them to themselves . . . as nothing in the post of mine that Reg was mocking came even close to doing.
And honestly, I have some sympathy for house churches, especially in an area that is remote or that lacks sound churches, but the more their “defenders” speak out on here, the more I’m inclined to keep my distance from house churches. My own personal experience has been that people often start house churches when none of the churches in the area meet their very exacting standards, that in fact the churches are started because of disunity with others in the body of Christ. But my own experience is somewhat limited, and I want to believe it isn’t always the case. But their defenders lead me to think that my “stereotype” of such churches may well be true more often than not, and make me inclined to continue to keep my distance from the phenomeonon, not to seek out such an assembly. Going beyond Scripture in saying “you must” and rewriting the words of Scripture, combined with attacking those who worship differently . . . all of those are marks of cultic worship, not of biblical assembly.
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TIMA,
You bring out sound points at times, and I appreciate what seems to be your heart for God-approved worship. But I do think you’re profoundly mistaken, possibly misled by others, in your insistence that only one style of worship is acceptable to God. To say that we can’t ever have one-way preaching, church buildings, etc., is to go beyond what Scripture says, and thus it is to bring unnecessary division within the body.
I hope that you are under a pastor who is mostly sound theologically, but this particular insistence on a particular mode of worship is extrabiblical and, it seems to me, unfortunate. Reg takes it a step beyond what you do, and mocks rather than communicating with care; I do see the difference between you. But since you do seem to care about biblical truth, I wish you’d see the biblical truth that issues like the size of a congregation, or whether part of its time in community is one-way teaching, are not biblical absolutes.
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Cheryl,
If the Jews had chosen to believe in mass that Jesus was their Messiah, their Temples would have been turned into places of Worship, not only to Worship GOD, but to thank GOD that HE had sent HIS Son the Messiah, GOD the Son to die for their sins. Hence the temple would have become a building to Worship the LORD and to Praise GOD for sending HIS Son – but that was not the case. Those who wanted to fellowship and Worship their LORD were confined to homes, and that was only under great secrecy. A building for Worship would have resulted in certain death and persecution.
I have a close family member who’s great friend has started a ‘house church’ – I’ve asked questions and receive no answers. This person has church hopped often – I won’t go into the details but I certainly am un-easy. There is much more to the story, but I will wait. As you know I don’t share my personal life on this blog.
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I know someone who attended Yoido Full Gospel Church in South Korea for a few years. It originally was Assembly of God, but is independent now. It has over 500,000 members. I always wondered how such a large group of people could really be one congregation. But I was told that the entire congregation is broken down into zones and cell groups. The cell groups worship regularly during the week at home churches. They come together in shifts at the main sanctuary once a week. I don’t remember how many, but there are quite a few Sunday services to accommodate everyone.
It sounds pretty well organized. Actually, it sounds more like a denomination than a single congregation. And with each cell group being one of many home churches organized in a zone, it would almost seem to qualify as a denomination.
I only mention it because it seems to combine some of the qualities of a large mega-church with that of a home church. But the leadership of the home cell churches are not independent from the main body. Apparently this helps the home churches stay accountable. That can be a problem with home churches—they can sometimes go off into left field if they don’t stay connected and accountable to the larger body of saints.
Gotta run for now. Blessings to all.
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TimA
To be fair, an important thing I have noticed about the word ‘preach’ is that it is generally applied to telling unbelievers the good news. Jesus preached to the multitudes, but spoke with the disciples. Jesus sent the disciples out to preach in the highways and byways. Paul went out to preach the good news in city squares and in synagogues to those who hadn’t heard it. I suppose we would call that evangelism, i.e. (Greek: euaggelizo) proclaiming the good news.
Rom 10:15 Says “How can they preach unless they are sent?”. It does seem that Paul preached to the Corinthian believers, since he spoke of their giving to those who minister the word. But Paul told even the Corinthian church he wanted to preach the gospel in the regions beyond them. 2 Cor 10:16
So I do think TimA has a valid point. The large Sunday morning services I’ve attended for much of my life are geared more to the unbelieving or new believer. I rarely hear a sermon that has any depth to it or where I learn something. We have people there who have been saved for 50 years listening to the call to be saved. I wouldn’t say that is wrong as TimA does. But perhaps we do overemphasize the formal services and neglect fellowship and forums that promote real growth and maturity for the believing body.
Compared to being involved in worship, having one person do all the work of preparation can become a lazy form of worship, requiring nothing from the majority in attendance. On the other hand, since having more than one person speak is chaos, once a church gets beyond the living room size, dialog becomes impractical. Perhaps a rotation of people preaching or teaching would be an interesting alternative.
Then there is the problem of people who aren’t trained and mature in handling the Word. I know some home Bible studies where the doctrine was just abysmal and the leader wouldn’t listen to reason. I think the best format is more of an adult Sunday School class, where the teachers are seasoned and approved. But nearly all churches I know of have such a thing.
Church is the people who worship in spirit and in truth. It is not a building we go to on Sundays. I do agree that there should be more emphasis on equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ. (Eph 4:12)
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133- TIMA
“I have injected humerous sarcasm here and there along with direct refuting. I see these dynamics modeled by Paul and Jesus in their communication.”
use of sarcasm by a man on WOW
25? by Victoria
“I’m not used to hearing that sort of “sarcasm” from a fellow Christian – I was dismayed to read it.”
responding to use of sarcasm by a woman on WOW
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Cheryl
as for your omni-present and all-knowing abilities: post 19?
“How sad. I was surprised by your “advice” last night because you clearly don’t live by it (not letting your past embitter you),”
You don’t know me, you are n’t here with me, you don’t see my life, like you assume, and you don’t know enough to judge
you are actually NOT like God at all; you are cruel, you have some sort of standard that exists in your mind, to which you are faithful, but it does not connect with the people that God made in the real world, at least not on this blog–Pauline was right about this form of communication being inadequate, and she has posted on that subject times in the past as well,
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Since we don’t actually know one another except through our posts, it’s probably not helpful to call each other cruel or bitter. I haven’t seen evidence on the thread of intentional cruelty or bitterness, and it would be good to keep it that way. I do understand that our perceptions are all different. And sometimes we even say things that we later regret. I think Karen said it best in #238, When people “mean well”, it is good to graciously give them the benefit of the doubt. I think we are all participating in this conversation because we ‘mean well’. So, for charity’s sake, let’s give each other the benefit of the doubt.
Peace and blessings to all.
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I can say what I perceive to be cruel when it is dirceted toward me, and has been an ongoing theme, in the past, from her to me.
I do put the best spin on others’ statemnets whenever possible. But when I perceive that someone is over and over again treating me with the same judgementalism, I am going to say so. I know more about her treatment of me than you, DJ.
Your comments are fine when they apply, and I will decide when that is.
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DJ,
I was not directing my comments toward Cheryl until she said things about me that I think are unfair. I have every right to say how I perceive her comments to and about me.
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Reg,
It’s one thing to be annoyed with someone, it is another to use attributes that are GOD’s alone, as so called sarcasm against another person. Cheryl has not put herself equal with GOD, …. in esesence your comments were strange coming from a Christian.
I hope things go better for you Reg, and I pray you enjoy this lovely Sunday.
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I understand Reg. Online communication has its challenges. I have had some serious disagreements with a couple of posters in the past year. It can be hard to ignore when you feel like someone has been unjust. And sometimes I haven’t ignored it either. And if you don’t want to ignore it, you have the same right to speak that everyone else here has. I’m not trying to shut you up…nor anyone else either. I hope you’re having a good day.
Blessings and peace to all.
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Sarcasm is a tricky thing. It can be used in a humorous way to make a point, but much sarcasm comes from hostility & is pointed & painful.
REG – I have been reading comments on this blog from near the time it began several years ago. I have read some comments by fellow Christians that have been judgmental, cruel, or both. It saddens my heart to read comments like that.
I say that to say this – Cheryl has disagreed with you many times, but I have not seen her be judgmental or cruel to you or anyone else. As I have said before, disagreement – even strong disagreement – is not the same as being judgmental.
What in particular has been written to you that you find cruel? Maybe pointing out what you find to be objectionable will help me & others understand you a bit more.
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Reg, I’m sorry that my assessment that you may deal with bitterness came across as cruel; it was certainly not meant to be. Truly, it was concern for you and those you love. I can think of three or four women who have in the past been very close to me (some now dead, some no longer friends) who not only destroyed themselves through bitterness, but destroyed those around them, including causing great damage in churches they attended and/or the ministries they worked for, as well as (in some cases) in their families. Two were women in some form of authority over me, and I knew their lives inside and out, and saw more than others how much damage they did. (I also knew of the suffering that had led to their bitterness, and felt great sympathy for it, but suffering turned to bitterness is a double dose of suffering.)
I truly hope that bitterness isn’t something you deal with, but often it sounds as though it could be. At any rate, my assessment wasn’t meant to be “cruel,” because it was true concern for you and your family. The Bible says it’s better to live in a corner of the roof than in the same house with a bitter and contentious woman, and in my experience bitterness is indeed that destructive. Even a small root of bitterness must be dug out, because the devil can use the tiniest root to destroy Christians, to destroy unity, and to destroy the testimony of the church.
And yes, I’ve seen house churches started by people who were too bitter to deal with fellow believers, and I do see those who are in house churches and unwilling to deal with the larger body as being in great spiritual danger. There may be other, legitimate reasons to join a house church, but those who do so in rejection of other believers are in spiritual danger, and they endanger the spiritual health of others. I’m not saying you’re in that place; I don’t know. But I have seen this up close and personal a couple of times and I know how ugly it can be, to get disillusioned, embittered Christians in a small house church that sees itself as spiritually superior to the churches its people left.
If this truly isn’t a sin you deal with at all, that’s great, and I’m very glad. I’ve learned from experience that judging another’s motives is impossible; I can’t know whether you are bitter and you can’t know whether I meant to be cruel. But no, I did not mean to be.
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P.S. I don’t really even remember what I said about the possibility that you might be bitter, but I believe it was in response to something you did to another poster that I saw as cruel, where you seemed to be encouraging her, and then when she responded by thanking you for your encouragement, you basically laughed in her face and said you weren’t being encouraging, you were being sarcastic. Well, having been the brunt of that sort of thing when I was in junior high, and seeing it as quite cruel and immature, I took offense and made some comment about my surprise when you counseled another to forget the past when you yourself seemed to clutch the past with some bitterness. (Surprise had been my true response to the post of pseudo encouragement.) Again, I don’t remember how I worded it, but what you initally saw as my cruelty was in reponse to what I saw as YOUR cruelty. So, the cycle continues.
Let’s break it and agree to be sisters, and to accept that we worship in different sized churches and have different life experiences, and that’s OK as long as we’re both following Christ. OK?
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Cheryl – Nice comments.
I, too, have seen the fruit of bitterness “up close & personal”, & it indeed is not pretty. Not only does the root of bitterness grow to spiritually poison the bitter one, it comes out in attacks on those around the bitter one. Unfortunately, biting sarcasm is one of the fruits of bitterness.
My own dear husband, Lee, has struggled against bitterness in his own life. He got to the point of being able to submit his attitudes more fully to the Holy Spirit, & is now mostly free from bitterness.
Lee & I have seen this in both sides of our family, & have determined that with the help of the Holy Spirit, we would like to see this streak of bitterness & negativity stopped in this generation, so that the next generation will not be subject to it.
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“As for me and my house…,” we gave a ride to a young friend of a friend from out-of-state who seems to have found a home in our church and takes the metro in from DC to meet us for a ride to church. Before worship, the adults had an in-depth discussion on scripture’s teaching on marriage. It was led by an elder who handed out a broad outline of references for further study at home, and there were so many more comments that we’ll continue it next week.
We began worship with songs & psalms of praise before we read Psalm 29 and had moments for silent confession to repent of our continuing sinful nature. Seven new members came forward to be welcomed and prayed for as members of our church family. We praised God from whom all blessings flow, as we offered our tangible supportof each other and our missionaries in the plate……….to be continued….
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Karen O.,
The Cross is “big enough” to stop bitterness and other generational sins, praise God. It goes against modern psychological teaching (that people will inevitably perform the misdeeds of their parents, or the opposite ones that are just as harmful), but praise God, Jesus doesn’t operate by human limitations.
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Cheryl-
I don’t care for your style of “let me win this war of words and put you down again, and let’s be friends…”
Karen,
You don’t remember Cheryl being judgmental toward me…well that is nice, Karen. I think that I have paid more atention to it than you, and would know, Karen, that is why it is my responsibility to spek to this issue, and not yours.
Karen-
I don’t think that you shoudl be reporting on your husband’s struggle with bitterness. Let him do that himself.
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273 cont’d: We affirmed our faith via the Apostle’s Creed and, between times, prayers were offered for individual members’ personal problems, plus the work of the Gospel in the world near and far. Pastor preached on the calling of husbands and fathers to lead with love. There are many young families joining and I sometimes miss a word against fussy babies here and there. Sometimes I find that annoying, but ultimately thank God they are all there. “We” have audio-visual in the fellowship hall with folding chairs for member volunteers to use and make room for new members in the sanctuary. To be cont’d….
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One of the problems with bitterness is that the bitter one is so wrapped up in their own feelings & justifications that they don’t see the hurtfulness or wrongness of their own behavior. It’s always someone else’s fault.
REG – Considering that my brief account of my husband’s struggle with bitterness also included his overcoming that struggle, he doesn’t have a problem with me telling it.
As Cheryl said, “The Cross is ‘big enough’ to stop bitterness and other generational sins, praise God.” We have experienced that & are glad to share the good news.
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276 cont’d: “We gathered together and asked the Lord’s blessings.” Due to a leg ailment, I did not stay for the fellowship meal after worship for which families and singles contribute more than enough for to satisfy all kinds of appetites. We will donate the remainders of yesterday’s clothing exchange and community give-away to another charity.
Tonight, my son and some children are at our prayer service that take hymn requests and will also focus on “Glorifying God.” The coming week offers four different home bible study groups and Youth Group meets here Friday night. We serve one another. Gal. 5:13 – “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;…but by love serve one another.”
God is so generously good and and Faithful to His people. I appreciate and love Him more every day.
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Nana,
You have had a wonderful day in the LORD, thank you for sharing it with us.
GOD bless you
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Nana – Our pastor has been preaching about marriage the past few weeks, & today mentioned about men leading with love, & that there is also a mutual submission that should occur. If a man loves & leads his wife as the Bible commands, submission will not be an issue, because the wife will trust him & want to follow his lead.
And he will be open to listening to her insight & advice, & treating her with consideration.
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Karen,
I get the feeling that you think that you are the expert on bitterness and feel responsible to educate me on it as well. You don’t have that responsibility, Karen. And, you are not responsible to judge and correct me. Jsut simply tell the stories of your own life, and God will use that in the lives of others, Karen. God will do the work, Karen, you do not have to do it.
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We cannot control the generation in which we live nor the next. Sin has to be dealt with on an individual basis, throughout our lives. One can turn from sin in a family and others will continue to sin in the same way. There is no guarantee that because a number of family members have overcome a particular sin, that it will not be present in others lives … even in their own family. We need to rely on the LORD everyday, for everything, and that means sins which we thought had been dealt with, may tempt us again. We need to be on GUARD, … Satan is always around when we think we have it all together. We aren’t free from temptation, we do have an escape through the LORD. He has promised:
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Reg – If you note, I have not specifically addressed my comments about bitterness to you, but as part of the general discussion. Cheryl also mentioned bitterness (though she wasn’t the only one), & I added my own thoughts to what she said.
I am certainly no expert, but I have seen enough of what it is like & what it does to offer my opinion.
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Karen,
Is this accomplishing anything? – we will ALL be tempted in these areas until we die. Wouldn’t it be better to let the dust settle on this? If you get a chance read my post #228 again.
None of us have reached the point that we don’t have thoughts that aren’t sinful, bitter, or angry…. NOT ONE!
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Karen, is that a providential irony or what (such an oxymoron)! We should all be so fortunate to have husbands leading us in God’s love for us. Before we married, my fiancee wanted me to convert to Catholicism and so did I, in order that our ceremony could included the Lord’s Supper. A very wise priest advised me that I had had time to consider that later. I am now certain that the Holy Spirit intervened so that I wouldn’t have to regret such an impulsive decision.
My husband did not lead me in love, but God did. And supported me through the miserable trials of adultery, desertion and divorce. Fred’s worship was shallow and insincere but God protected my unsuspecting heart and devotion to the knowledge of Him as I knew it then. Best of all, He kept safe my son through all the hard times and recriminations of the world’s hypocritical morality. It took decades for me to override the hurt I felt even from some Christians. So, today’s emphasis on husbands’ roles to lead in love, couldn’t be more important. You have come a long way. God Bless.
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“Worship Wars” are among the nothings “…new under the sun,” neither are God’s admonitions for one another:
Rom. 15:7 Accept one another as Christ does
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens
Eph. 4:2 Forbear one another in love
Phil. 2:3 Regard one another as more important
I Thess. 5:13 Seek what is best for one another
Jas. 5:16 Pray for one another
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The Church Coffe Wars are another matter. I had a drop before I left today and the Lutherans are still winning
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228-
victoria,
Excellent thoughts here
Yes, there are reminders, one of the worst is the pain of having to face the treatment by the religious communities, the friends that are no longer friends, or just no longer interested, the way that I can’t fit into the circles I once knew, including my own extended family, the starting over in that way, at this age in my life, the exhaustion from trying to work to support four children, when I don’t have a work history, when I don’t have a job skill, and don’t have the money to get one, when I am substitute teaching and finding that a sub is supposed to not care (don’t write me your stories to prove otherwise–this is what happened to me)having my tires vandalized on my vehicle at the school after turning a teacher in for verbal abuse, (read Gatto on subbing) yes, the worst for me is not the children, I am relieved for them, they don’t have the extreme tension and stres that they once knew.
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above post–on the extreme tension and stress that my children were living in–
chaos in our home before the divorce was WORSE than my life/our lives after the divorce,
don’t tell me, “sorry about your divorce”
tell me, “sorry life was hell, sorry about the abuse, etc. sorry about that which led to a divorce”
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Karen,
After hearing a sermon like that, how a marriage should work, etc., what do you do when you have a real friend who has marriage problems and this pastor’s formula doesn’t seem to be working for them no matter how many times you repeat it? How do you view this friend? As rebellious? How do you treat the friendship? As a drain on your time? “Let’s go talk to my pastor and see what more he has to offer?” (I have not found this to work or even be helpful beyond the moment where he has to admit that I had “biblical” cause for divorce.)
I had a christian woman from my church tell me that I was defiling anyone that I talked to about my own marriage. And another queen in our denomination told me that I needed to repent of gossipping about my own husband… (who was hanging out at strip joints and I had to be treated by my doctor, and I didn’t know what to do) but, alas, no, this godly woman was correct in her own eyes (I don’t doubt that her view of her correctness had nothing to do with sermons that she had ever heard, and I was to shut up or get out. I have observed that a lot of these so called sermons are used to just weed people out and create the group of like people that the denomination/pastor wants on board paying his way.
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(speaking softly)-Reg, Reg, Reg, I can’t even begin to imagine having to go through all of that in your position. I’m so glad you’re holding on to your faith. I wish I could give you a hug and scold those dumb goats who have hurt you. Until then, I pray.
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Victoria 279, Yes, it was a Good Sunday on which to begin the coming week and wish the same for you. I’m hoping that TIMA notices something he can relate to.
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VICTORIA:
Trying to shut people up is just another form of manipulation (284). Karen has made very helpful comments, and you should not be trying to shut her up. If you don’t find the conversation helpful, you are not obligated to participate, but might pray for those who do. God knows we all need the prayer.
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Reg,
I can’t tell you how many Mothers Day sermons I’ve spent sitting alone in the vestibule trying to hide my tears. All of the sermons of idealized descriptions of mothers seemed to bear very little resemblance to my own. Don’t get me wrong, I loved my mother dearly and she was exceptional in a number of ways, but she was also severely schizophrenic.
I can identify with your statement (290) a lot of these so called sermons are used to just weed people out and create the group of like people that the denomination/pastor wants on board paying his way. That is exactly what I used to wonder about sometimes. I eventually came to the conclusion that part of the problem was indeed the church I was attending, and part of it was my own need for healing. I wish I could say there was an easy answer and a quick turn around. But I went through some very dark dark years (including my mothers death) before there was any kind of permanent relief.
I don’t think the answer lies in ministers not preaching the theologically solid, instructive sermons like Karen described. Those sermons are encouraging to many people, and sometimes those sermons are helpful in highlighting the people like me (or you?) who—for whatever reason—need ministry. If the congregation doesn’t rise to the occasion, then shame on them. Find another congregation to worship with! There is a place for every member of the body, sometimes we have to do a little searching to find it. I hope you have found yours.
Blessings to all.
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DJ, with all due respect, I think that was an unfair comment just above. I have no doubt that Victoria prays earnestly for this situation, as well as others, even if she hadn’t stated so many times. We’re all in the same boat and need each other. Peace.
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You’re certainly entitled to your opinion Nana. I don’t know your history, but my past history on this blog tells me that the comment was needed.
Blessings.
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Nana,
I’m going to be gone for a week, but wouldn’t want my last comments here to cause friction. So if it makes any difference to anyone, I will retract comment #293. Though I maintain that I have found Karen’s comments helpful and refreshingly candid…and yours too Nana..
Be well.
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DJ, I still like your latte suggestion for carpeting. Ditto, enjoy, come back
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Reg – One of my best friends divorced her husband & remarried. And she was the unfaithful one in her marriage, feeling that her husband didn’t communicate, didn’t pay attention to her, & he hid some things from her.
Anyway, I told her gently what I believed to be true, but emphasized that I love her & would be praying for her.
She & I are still “close”, though we live in different states. We don’t talk often, but when we do, it’s as if we just talked yesterday.
In the same sermon I mentioned above, my pastor also mentioned how men have used “the submit card” erroneously & sinfully. He pointed out that in Eph. 5 there are 3 verses aimed at wives, but 9 verses aimed at husbands!
If all the scriptures about marriage are kept in consideration, then there is absolutely no excuse for a man to treat his wife as anything other than precious & beloved.
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Reg,
I’m truly sorry for the pain you’ve experienced. Two of my dearest friends have gone through some of what you’ve experienced, though to a lesser degree, and I’ve experienced my own types of suffering (things I don’t talk about on here, but I do know what pain is).
My comment wasn’t an offer of friendship, BTW. I don’t offer friendship lightly, and wasn’t doing so here. It was a reminder that we already are sisters. Assuming that you know the Lord Jesus, we’ll spend eternity together. All our pains and tears will be forever over, and we will be at peace.
That’s not something I say lightly. My sister-in-law was expected to go overnight to be with Jesus, and as far as I know she’s still with us, but I stand on the edge of eternity with a sister and am in a place of having my life tempered by eternity.
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“I have observed that a lot of these so called sermons are used to just weed people out and create the group of like people that the denomination/pastor wants on board paying his way.”
Reg – I don’t understand why you refer to it as a “so-called” sermon. From what I described of the sermon in 283 & 299, do you see something wrong or unbiblical? As I said, Pastor emphasized the concept of submitting to one another, & the husband leading in love, listening to & heeding his wife’s insights & thoughts. There is no room for abuse of any kind.
As for paying his way, for the first year (& a little longer) of pastoring our church, Pastor Kris did not receive a salary, at his own request. He worked 50 hours a week at an outside job, then would come home, have dinner, & then go over to the church, putting in about 30 hours a week there.
His wife & kids are very happy that we can now easily afford to pay him a salary, so he can have a family life again.
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XION #261
Very nicely said. Once you put away your over-reaction Cards, did some digging in the Word, you come up with some truth.
“Compared to being involved in worship, having one person do all the work of preparation can become a lazy form of worship, requiring nothing from the majority in attendance.”
Very lazy I would add. So lazy it completely corrupts that goals of teaching / preaching that are specified in scripture.
Luke 6: 40 …a student is not above his teacher but when he is fully trained he will be like him.
2 Tim. 2:2 …the things you heard from me, entrust to faithful men who will teach others also.
In the system of institutionalized faith, it is normal for 99% of the men to hear 1000+ sermons over the years and never be expected to grow up to teach God’s Word themselves. They will need to hear a professional prepared sermon their WHOLE LIFE. This is considered normal in the system. It is NOT normal if you read the Word without institutionalized filters on your mind and heart. Life is reproductive. God designed His word to have a reproductive affect. By simple observation of the institutionalized system, it should be OBVIOUS of severe flaws and carnality claimed to be holy in it’s approach to dispensing God’s Word. Reproductivity of truth REQUIRES mutual, intimate relationship between the teacher and the students. That is what Jesus and Paul modeled.
Eph 4:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Speaking the truth + love = All grow up into Him
Speaking the truth without mutual, intimate one another love will not produce ALL growing up into the Him who is the Head… Institutionalized faith shortchanges God’s equation for reproductive life / growth.
That is not what happens in a one man to 150 people or one man to 500 people, and on up. The lazy people all FEEL like they are deeply committed, feel like they are growing, feel like they are learning, but systemically they have completely disconnected themselves from the GOAL of teaching. They have neutered their reproductivity and like it. They are navel oranges, unable to produce a seed. There are a few exceptions to this that in God’s grace grow beyond the system. That’s why I say 99%. It is all NORMAL for one man to give weekly Bible lectures in a church for 30+ years, and after he leaves or dies, another man is needed to replace him to do ALL the same things he did. Not one man has been “fully trained” or “entrusted” with ANYTHING that he has done so they can “be like him” or “teach others also”. THIS IS TRAGIC, in view of God’s clear revelation. I am not making it up. I am just a messenger calling the sin sin.
As a teacher and shepherd, I am free to reproduce every thing I say and do into other men. With in 18 months, God has worked complete reproductivity in 4 men God has brought to our fellowship. One more is very close. Very soon we will “divide” (like cells divide / reproduce) into two fellowships so full leadership can be done by these men – reproducing to other men ALL that is involved. Am I a super Christian because of this? No, it’s just God’s grace. Specially His grace that helped me “throw off” institutionalized faith.
This is only one of MANY systematized failures in institutionalized faith. I have mentioned others in the past, but most saints are too comfortable to be actual “Bereans” and test what they are told with the scriptures to see if it’s true. Acts 17:11 They have too many CARDS of self justification to play.
I commend you for the progress you have made so far. There is much more to go.
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XION, belated thanks for your work at 256. I was beginning to notice the differences from my own clumsy research and very much appreciate your post. As I’ve searched for “one another” verses, I find that other equivalent phrases are often used with few, if any, of the finer distinctions for “preach” which you listed.
I’m trying to evaluate the “one another” verses, in their contexts, for their importance to TIMA in organizing and teaching his fellowship group. Any thoughts?
TIMA, forgive me if I’m overlooking previous posts that explain the “one another” verses. Just point me in the right direction.
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TIMA, the way you describe teaching and shepherding more men to become fellowship leaders sounds very similar to my church’s method for aspiring deacons, elders and pastors. They intern for a period of time, but are accountable to more than one man so that, I think, sound doctrine is verified and not interpreted by only one person.
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“As a teacher and shepherd, I am free to reproduce every thing I say and do into other men. With in 18 months, God has worked complete reproductivity in 4 men God has brought to our fellowship. One more is very close. Very soon we will “divide” (like cells divide / reproduce) into two fellowships so full leadership can be done by these men – reproducing to other men ALL that is involved. Am I a super Christian because of this? No, it’s just God’s grace. Specially His grace that helped me “throw off” institutionalized faith.”
This approach reminds me of what I read about the Primitive Baptists in the south eastern US around the time of the civil war. I would like to read more about this group since it was in my family line about 6-7 generations ago. My 4th great-grandfather had many sons and together they started an association of Primitive Baptist churches. I visited the church, the graveyard and the family home with cemetary last fall. It was quite thrilling. They had this idea of training their own.
The war scattered the family, I think, anyway, and we ended up pretty far away. We definitely, as a family, lost the vision of whatever had been going on in that church association.
I still think that there is a valid place for all to speak to one another (in a forum where all are listening) to tell the stories of one’s life. Sermons are in the stories. God’s work is in the stories; it can’t be hidden. I do not have the energy or the time to “prove” and then “argue” everything I say from scripture. I believe that what I say IS in scripture. However, at this time, I am trying to rebuild my health after years of, frankly, being worn down.
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On Marvin Olasky’s book, The American Leadership Tradition:
“Throughout, the emphasis is on storytelling, not sermonizing, but I have kept in mind what Theodore Roosevelt said in his 1912 address as president of the American Historical Association: “The greatest historian should also be a great moralist. It is no proof of impartiality to treat wickedness and goodness on the same level.”
I know this is off-subject, but it points to the value of story-telling, which is something that we all can do.
If ages were mixed and young people heard the older folks sincerely telling the stories of their own youth, our youth might have more hope, less despair, more friends, etc.
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“As the body of Christ we should help, listen and care MORE for those who are so tired and pained. Don’t become annoyed because they tell their story, they live the story every day, you only hear a small part of it.”
The more you hear stories of those enduring trials, the more you learn to discern the righteous from the unrighteous, godly and ungodly, there are patterns that present themselves through these stories. You learn who the unsing heroes and heroines really are. They are fascinating to behold. And no, I don’t leave out the words used in the Proverbs, the foolish and the wise. When you listen to stories, the fools stand out and so do the wise; their behaviors stand out clearly.
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Cheryl-
I guess sisters aren’t the same as friends? mmmm
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Reg – I don’t mean to be pushy, but I am interested in your response to my comments in #s 299 & 301.
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301-
Would you agree that everything called a sermon really is a sermon, like everyone who calls himself a pastor is truly a pastor, or everyone who calls himself a husband really lives like one, or whomever has the job of teaching really teaches?
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“However, your statement above that says all occurrences of preach mean dialog is simply untrue. Here are other occurrences of preaching and its meaning.
- dialoegomai (13 occurrences) talk, dispute, debate, reason with
- kerusso (61 occurrences) publish, proclaim, herald
- euaggelizo (55 occurrences) bring good news, to announce glad tidings, preach the gospel (i.e. good news)
- kataggello (17 occurrences) announce, declare, promulgate, make known
Aren’t most of these one-way communication? Proclaiming, heralding, announcing, declaring, publishing. So out of the 146 occurrences of these words for preach, 133 of them are not dialoegomai. That word is only translated as preach twice even in the KJV.”
Did I miss the answer to this question?
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299-Reg – “One of my best friends divorced her husband & remarried. And she was the unfaithful one in her marriage, feeling that her husband didn’t communicate, didn’t pay attention to her, & he hid some things from her.”
Are you making the point that she was unfaithful to her husband?
I don’t diagnose marriages. It is impossible for someone on the outside of a marriage to know what is going on in the marriage.
It can be like the bully in the third grade classroom who eggs on the weaker student and the bullied one ends up getting the attention of the teacher nad getting in trouble. These behavior patterns go on and on. The husband can be just cruel to the wife when ONLY she is aware; even the children in the home don’t see it. He literally talks two talks. It makes the wife insane. I know. She can end up being unfaithful. I am not going to pronounce judgements. She could have left for her own survival even though it looks like the opposite happened to some observers.
I am glad that you still have contact with her, although, I could imagine that it might not be so easy for her as you might think? That is just a guess.
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“Anyway, I told her gently what I believed to be true, but emphasized that I love her & would be praying for her.”
What you believed to be true from the Bible?
And what honestly was her reaction/response to your presentation of truth?
Were you in the same church? Did you meet each other in a church?
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Reg – So is your disagreement with the fact that this was a sermon by a pastor, rather than the points of the sermon I mentioned? At first I thought you disagreed with the points I mentioned about the sermon, but now it seems it is the fact that it was a sermon you don’t like.
Which is true?
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Reg (#313) – They were both at fault. And yes, my friend has said the same thing.
As far as how easy it is for her, well… she is the one who usually calls, & often asks me for advice on various things she is facing. She trusts my advice, & knows I will pray.
Yes, we met in church, though when the divorce & such happened, she was then living in another state.
(#314) – She was disappointed in what I said, but she said she knew that is what I would say.
She had walked away from the Lord for a while at that time. A while after her remarriage, she & her husband rededicated themselves to the Lord. She now feels that she was rebellious when she left her first husband, & regrets the pain & problems it has caused their son.
However, we both know that God has forgiven her. God is gracious, & has been good to her & her family.
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Karen,
There are no easy answers to these questions about sermons/pastors. To say they have no truth would be dumb. To say that the truth they have is best transferred to us in they way that they communicate is shallow. You have read Pagan Christianity and know what is in the chapter on sermons. I find that so much in a mass instructional setting cannot be applied to specific situations and that people being instructed in this way are learning to be judgemental and not listen to the real people in their lives. Now, I am not going to pour over the Bible and my commentaries all night long to prove what I am saying, and then only to have to argue with someone else on here who doesn’t want to see what I am trying to say.
When I read or listen to someone, I try to see if the person has a valid point, rather than look for areas of obvious disagreement as the next topic of communcation with that person. I would rather ask quetions and draw out the point that is being made, than focus on areas of disagreement. That is how I operate in some settings. I do not have to make issues out of EVERYTHING that is being said.
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Why was your friend sisappointed in what you said?
I have a friend who got a divorce in a hopeless situation, and later got remarried, joined Bill Gothard, and now says that she was in rebellion to have gotten that divorce. UM, mmmm, wow, she walked away from an adulterer, potential disease, and now because of one man, Gothard, who has never been married, etc., and has a LARGE following, (and I think this is the hang up for so many of us, we get snagged because someone is a professional and successful)she is convinced that she was wrong to get a divorce at all, should have stayed and followed Gothard’s formaulas for appeal, or whatever his recipe for that one was…and what a sad result it has been, to really be joined in spirit to Gothard, there is the adultery, it is spiritual
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Karen,
Both are true,
I take issue with both, in my experience
pastors are basically paid to stand up and say things that are going to seem right to a like-minded crowd. So now you have these ideas that you can pass on to a friend in a troubled marriage. Problem is, your hypotheital friend could be married to a fool, it could be a situation where no amount of subitting is going to work. Or perhaps the points he made in the pulpit aren’t the ones that someone else needs to hear. Perhaps your friend just needs a listening ear. When you regurgitate sermon material, it can (IS) be very painful for another to hear because they may just want compassion and feel that you just rebuked them with the stuff that they should have know to begin with, and therefore shoudln’t be feeling what they are feeling.
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Reg,
The relationship of sisters in Christ lasts for eternity; not all friendships do. So the relationship of sister is more important, and even deeper, than some earthly friendships. At the same time, we choose our friends, and usually do so based on some things we have in common with them; and I’m careful whom I choose as a friend because it’s a long-term commitment and I’m a loyal friend.
So no, sisters aren’t the same as friends, although they definitely overlap.
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Reg – My friend was disappointed because she hoped I wouldn’t say what I did. I told her I was sorry, & I didn’t belabor anything.
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283-
on that sermon, these sound like ideas similar to Donald Joy’s Two Become One, good ideas. They work if two people are willing workers, godly ones, not fools, in the relationship, and if they are, they may not need a sermon like that because they are already doing it. It would be more effective to have a format where couples who live this way can tell the stories of their lives so that others can SEE the reality unfold from week to week, or month to month. Instead of going to church to have our minds crammed with more shoulds from the pulpit, we would see the godliness displayed, not in perfection, but in reality, which would give us all hope.
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nice , detached and sanitary answer, Cheryl, good job!!
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and thanks for letting me know that you were not offering me a friendship!! I am struck with your rudeness once again!
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Are you perhaps assuming that I “regurgitate” what I’ve hear from the pulpit, &/or that I listen uncritically to what I hear. Neither are true. I filter everything through the Bible, & sometimes disagree with the pastor.
When I talk to someone who is suffering, I know better than to “preach” at them.
On this blog, people tend to state their beliefs, often in a strong way. But when we are in face to face communication, things are much different. For instance, on one of the abortion threads, I could state that I believe abortion to be murder. But with the women I know who have had abortions, I would never be harsh or judgmental, but rather demonstrate the love of Christ to them.
Also, my older daughter is living with her boyfriend/fiance. She knows we disapprove of her lifestyle, but we don’t talk about it. We have also told her that we are proud of her for some other decisions she has made in her life, & we always tell her how much we love her.
With my divorced friend, I answered her question about what I thought. I didn’t want to hurt her, but felt I needed to be honest with her & told her so. That was the only time we discussed the issue.
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“Also, my older daughter is living with her boyfriend/fiance. She knows we disapprove of her lifestyle, but we don’t talk about it. We have also told her that we are proud of her for some other decisions she has made in her life, & we always tell her how much we love her.”
Very good!
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Reg, you make so many good points that I can relate to regarding sermons and the benefits of sharing our imperfect lives in order to comfort and encourage others in our congregations. Some of us have been almost forced to “suffer” in fear and silence. Especially when it comes to the embarrassment of being embarrassed by a two-faced husband, but you already know this very well. We can come such a long way, through so much, and still wonder where the end is. I am so glad your children are better off now.
For some reason today I was hoping that you have time for little fun or a hobby. I never really did until I retired a couple years ago and like to suggest that others not wait so long
Please remember my post 291.
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Reg – I thought about what you wrote about sermons. My thought is that a good sermon can teach new believers certain concepts they need to know & give more mature believers food for thought.
The sermon is just one part of church life, though. The one-another kind of teaching/sharing is done at other times. In my old church, I learned so much about living the Christian life from godly women in Bible studies & ladies events, & from a couple of very wise men who taught Sunday school for many years.
In our “new” church, we are planning on having small groups meet, where that kind of one-anothering (how’s that for a word?) can take place.
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Does anyone know anything about neurolinguistic programming and whether or not it’s implemented by any new Christian movements? TIMA’s vocabulary and stridency reminds me of fads in the 1970s & 80s, but I don’t keep up on these things anymore.
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Excuse me, Reg, but you were sarcastic about “how” I offered you friendship, so I thought it needful to clarify that in fact I was not doing so. I was doing something different, however–pointing out that although we’re an unlikely pair to be friends, we ARE sisters, and as such we’ll be in eternity together, and as such our relationship now is important whether or not we’re “friends.” It wasn’t meant as an insult, but as clarification. It would have been insulting to pretend to offer you friendship when I wasn’t doing so, and when I hold friendship in high enough esteem that I would not do so. But sisterhood is a “longer term” relationship than friendship, so it is not at all insulting (or surely not intended to be insulting) to say we’re sisters and to call both of us to act like it (not with the sniping part of childhood sisterhood, but with the grace of adult sisters).
BTW, it would be nice sometimes to receive “the benefit of the doubt.” This gets tiresome, you know, having my motives questioned on every turn.
But please trust me that I really do care about you, and really do care that you have been hurt by people who should have loved you, including those in the church.
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NANA,
I am a singer, so sing and play the piano. I have a ton of piano teaching materials from 20 plus years ago. My husband builds parts for pipe organs. We attended a choir concert two nights a go and checked out the tracker organ after wards. I learn a lot from him.
We were both bread bakers before we met, each having our own grain grinding and baking equipment. So for the first time in five years, I am now baking fresh bread regularily at home again for my family. Most of us eat it most of the time. My youngest (who has his own eating style) bought a loaf at the store last night “for sandwiches, only, Mom, I will eat yours for toast.” My bread is 100 wheat and really high and light.
This summer I sorted through 100 boxes of books, stored in my parents’ basement since the divorce in 2005. I took many of these books to a home schooling store (run by a single mom–her only income–what a great lady doing a great job–www.carebooksandmore.com) so I am still sorting through lots of materials. We put up seven book shelf units this summer in the basement and they are full. I love seeing my books again.
I started colonics yesterday for the first time in years. I am detoxing my liver and trying to get rid of a build up of fatty tumors that have accumulated over the past 7 years. She had a great recipe for making cultured veggies. It is live food in a pre-digested state. Perfect for my over alkaline system and intestinal flora, appetite control and longevity!!
For fun my freshman (hs) son is on the swim team and in the fall play. Lots of fun on the way.
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Cheryl,
I don’t remember my sarcasm over you offering a friendship if it was before the time that you said that you werent’ offering me one, which I thought was as trange thing to say.
thanks for your comments.
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Reg – I hope you have a dry basement for those books. It would be a shame for them to get ruined from moisture. We have a pretty moist basement, so I can’t store books down there.
Your bread sounds delicious. My husband was a cook earlier in his career, & his first love was baking. Both of our daughters have “inherited” his love of baking. Our younger daughter has been on a baking “streak” lately, keeping us supplied with all sorts of goodies.
Right now, there is a delicious pumpkin bread in the kitchen, & a lightly-orange-flavored pound cake. And in the fridge, a delicious zucchini quiche she made the other day.
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Another word on worship -
It is interesting to me that at the same time there is a movement for home churches, there are also those who are gravitating towards the Orthodox churches. And yet they (we) are all Christians who are seeking to more closely follow our Lord.
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Pumpkin bread sounds wonderful
I am going to buy some pumpkin oil today, it is good for cholesterol, immune, blood pressure, etc.
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Karen,
I knew one family that went from house style to Orthodox. It is interesting to see her quotes on facebook now. My husband and I both have a long line of familial history of pastors and abuse all wrapped in a religious package, so we relate to each other well in these areas. I needed someone who is a Christian but would not push me into a church setting.
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Reg – Considering all you went through with your first husband, was it difficult to get involved with another man, to trust him enough to marry him?
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are you on facebook? or, just email me at queenregina81@gmail.com, if you want the details. It will not be time consuming.
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I am sorry you have had such bad experiences with pastors. The two that I have known are sincerely dedicated to serving God, bringing people to Jesus, & helping the members of their congregation.
When one icy winter day, my husband slipped on the ice & tore part of his bottom eyelid open, our pastor took time out of his day to drive him to the nearby city to have it stitched by a specialist.
He has come over to talk with us (not to preach at us) & pray with us when bad things have happened in our family. When my husband had to go to court, the assistant pastor went with him for “moral support”.
These pastors are good, sincere, loving men. I wish you had known some like them.
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Reg 331: Well, God has certainly blessed you with gifts and talents for your own enjoyment and that of others, too. Some of my more enjoyable and relaxing moments have been playing my piano alone with God, and at church for everyone to sing. My arthritis convinced me to give my piano and all my music to a church a few years ago, but I have such – almost vivid memories when I look through a hymnal, I might as well be really playing again. Sigh not quite the same, though. And how providential that your husband has that special mechanical knowledge of pipe organs. They will never disappear.
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340 cont’d: Sun. afternoon, not knowing of this thread, my son (43) selected a video that I gave him of a 1966 debate between a Catholic and a Jewish professor on “The Failure of Organized Religion” for his family to watch, not only for the content, but debating style and use of critical thinking. Your books reminded me of this because I used to order the transcripts in case I missed anything. I have very little room for books in this apt., and still have some left to donate. Not much has changed in that debate after all these years – only my knowledge base and perspective. What disappointed me was that “failure” wasn’t defined and the philosophical arguments focused on religions historically at literal war with each other, but that much HAS changed for the most part.
I wish I had as much room as you do for bookshelves. Have you read Allan Bloom’s “The Closing of the American Mind: How Higher Education Has Failed Democracy and Impoverished the Souls of Today’s Students.”?
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341 cont’d: I attended a home church several years ago where the pastoral duties were shared by three men – superb Bible teachers. It grew to the point they moved services to a small chapel in a local Rescue Mission and then rented a school gym for Sun. services. It was called Trinity Fellowship in Syracuse, NY.
Most Pastors and/or ministers I’ve known, including Catholic priests, have been as fine and upstanding as anyone could expect from a human being. Only one was a disaster, who I used to accompany, as a teenager, to play for services at a county home for the aged, and took avantage of my naivete. These men are everywhere sad to say, and need to be held accountable by their peers. Thank God there’s more accountability than there used to be. Time for me to call it a day. Peace.
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NANA,
I read Bloom’s book about 20 years ago. My piano pedegogy professor at Goshen College, Marvin Blickenstaff, also had read it and praised the work.
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In re: 330
Cheryl,
That sounds like the time this girl asked a friend of mine if she was his friend. He replied, “No. Your an acquaintence.”
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Thorn: bad call, bad form, bad manners, worse timing. (WV 10/28)
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Nana – all of the above, couldn’t be worse.
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I guess I’m coming to this discussion belately. But I have a somewhat unique perspective: a former Missouri Lutheran with the old hymnal and then a member of a local community church, Protestant, where CCM was very prominent, and now an Eastern Orhtodox, where the music is accapella with no muscial instruments just voices. Once I loved CCM that mimiced popular rock and roll styles that seemed to lift me and now I see CCM,as vapid and mushy in theology,(Yes, Jesus-is-my-buddy type music) and jarring and out of place for worship.
Worship is not for us simply to feel good, rather it is where we come to encounter an Amighty God, Holy and Just. The early Church met Jesus (God) in the Eucharist (Communion). The Sacramental Churches continue this tradition (Roman, Orthodox, Coptic and even Lutheran at times where this ancient understanding is present).
Music must be reverential and meditative in order to lead us to a proper understanding of this encounter with God, the finite and fallen meeting the Infinite and Holy.
This is the tenor of Psalm 51, a plea for forgiveness and mercy that is part of the worhip of the Ancient Church and is continued on today in the sacramental churches.
It is within these traditions that true worhip is carried on, not through something akin to a Christian Rock concert.
Yes, individuals can certainly meet this God alone but the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, the Assembly of God, that is the Church from earliest times gathered as a matter of habit and yes, tradition to encounter this Great God, Holy, Just and Merciful.
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PEACHJWP, you remind me of the old, dark green Lutheran hymnal that I loved from my youth in NYS. It helped me pay worshipful attention to what I was singing, respectfully reinforced scripture, as well as being a teaching tool. I agree with you on CCM and Christian Rock, although I’m not current on today’s hits. I had to agree with RIO on some worwhile comments to refute my stand against what I’ve heard on Christian radio stations.
You struck a chord with me on Psalm 51, one of my favorites. During a recent hospital stay I asked my pastor to read it before we prayed. I know nothing of the Eastern Orthodox Church and ccurrently worship with an OPC congregation. It is a very plain chruch without a choir or cross but the lots of “meat” in Sunday School, preaching and Bible studies.
Thanks for your post.
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I can be reached at:
lise@robohn.com
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