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Good morning.
On this day in 1983: A suicide truck-bombing at Beirut International Airport in Lebanon killed 241 U.S. Marines and sailors.
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back to top117 Comments to “Whirled Views 10.23”
Just read the article on “Hope Awards Winners”. Christ in action through His saints.
Matt. 25:31-46 comes to mind.
I pray your day be filled with hope and glory.
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ANd once again my smart aleck preteen self smarted off “what were are men doing there? Should we just kill them before we send them over?” The wife of a military man set my thinking straight and I have been grateful ever since.
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The Lebanon – The Human League – 1984
She dreams of nineteen sixty-nine
Before the soldiers came
The life was cheap on bread and wine
And sharing meant no shame
She is awakened by the screams
Of rockets flying from nearby
And scared she clings onto her dreams
To beat the fear that she might die
And who will have won
When the soldiers have gone?
From the Lebanon
The Lebanon
Before he leaves the camp he stops
He scans the world outside
And where there used to be some shops
Is where the snipers sometimes hide
He left his home the week before
He thought heÕd be like the police
But now he finds he is at war
“Weren’t we supposed to keep the peace”
And who will have won
When the soldiers have gone?
From the Lebanon
The Lebanon, The Lebanon, from the Lebanon
I must be dreaming
It can’t be true
I must be dreaming
It can’t be true
And who will have won
When the soldiers have gone?
From the Lebanon, The Lebanon, From The Lebanon…
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hm interesting poem…
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A good friend and assiciate was on rotation over there when that happened. His recounting of the event was heartbreaking.
Modern jihadist terrorism in its infancy. I wonder how we would have reacted if we had known then what we know now…
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Those 241 innocent people murdered in their sleep are just a tinay fraction of the Americans murdered by terrorist jihadists funded, trained, motivated and/or tied in some way to Iran. They have been murdering Americans with near impunity for decades.
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The influence of Hezbollah in Lebonon and elsewhere is primarily from Iran.
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The Hezbo and the Syrian govt are both owned outright by the Iranians. Shiite muslims were a minority in the muslim community until they were adopted by the Iranians.
Its really funny because the “national army” of Lebanon actually has ceded areas of that country to the Hezballah forces. I recall seeing a news clip of Lebanese troops deploying and occupying new territory.. inside their own country!
Remind me what Euro power set up Lebanon? Oh yeah, them.
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A man I know was all set to join the corps when the bombing happened. It killed one of his friends who had joined a few years earlier. With ea death in foreign conflict there are probably lotsa military careers that are aborted (folks dont reenlist or they don’t even go into the recruiters office)
When you look back at the Beirut marine barracks fiasco, you see things that would never ever happen today.
Troops today have restricted entry checkpoints and concrete “T barrier” walls; impenetrable to small arms fire. A former army LT Col told me that the marine sentry there in Beirut had no ammo for his rifle. And instead of T barrier concrete they had just a portable chain linke fence.
Somewhere on the web there must be a listing of all the men who died in that barracks attack. Can someone post a link? And ditto those who died in the Khobar towers attack. (Also linked to Iran, though I dont know why not AlQaeda wahabbist fanatics)
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thanks for the song, Travis. Here I thought I was a THL fan and I’d never heard of it.
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What do you all think about this?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569121,00.html?test=latestnews
I don’t like book burnings. This bothers me.
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Sawgunner,
Here is a link to a list of the men who died in the Beirut barracks attack:
Beirut memorial
I’m still looking for a list for the Khobar towers attack.
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Hmmm…link doesn’t seem to work. Let’s go with the old cut-and-paste:
http://www.beirut-memorial.org/memory/brtnames.html
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I used to have a great button that I wore on my jean jacket that said “I Read Banned Books”. But I gave it to a friend’s mom, who was a librarian.
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NJL, We heard of this earlier here in NC. You can find kooks everywhere. Some have a following. But it won’t amount to much.
So, How about this?
WASHINGTON/CHICAGO, Oct 22 (Reuters) – U.S. communications regulators voted unanimously Thursday to support an open Internet rule that would prevent telecom network operators from barring or blocking content based on the revenue it generates.
The proposed rule now goes to the public for comment until Jan. 14, after which the Federal Communications Commissions will review the feedback and possibly seek more comment. A final rule is not expected until the spring of next year.
“I am pleased that there is broad agreement inside the commission that we should move forward with a healthy and transparent process on an open Internet,” FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski said.
Since everything in Washington is really the opposite of the name given it (e.g. “Fairness Doctrine), I wonder what this means for the internet. Are they going to regulate blogging?
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I think what they are saying, Chas, is that you can’t bar content because it makes only a dime and keep content that makes you the buck. It has to be open to all. I don’t think this is about blogging.
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I used to have a great button that said, “This is my husband’s idea of jewelry.”
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And then there’s this one:
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=291254&ac=PHbiz
My favorite line is “Currently, applicants must fill out a separate IRS form, but do not have to supply documentation.”
Ya gotta love our legislators. How many times has their been fraud? And they still don’t ask for proof right up front?!
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And how about the abusers defrauding the government on the 8k tax credit? Did they not think that one through? And it has really helped in my area.
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College Football Friday
Here it is. Pick the winners as well as the final score of the tie breaker. Tough to pick games this week, but I attempted to get some from all regions. ESPN Bottom Ten calls the “pillow fight” this week “epic” since neither team has any win and there are 13 losses between them. Remember, guess the score of the tie breaker [Arizona made the top 25! Go Wildcats!] along with just the winners of the other games.
#8 TCU (6-0) @ #16 Brigham Young (6-1)
Auburn (5-2) @ #9 LSU (5-1)
Air Force (4-3) @ #18 Utah (5-1)
Minnesota (4-3) @ #19 Ohio State (5-2)
Connecticut (4-2) @ #23 West Virginia (5-1)
Pillow fight: Ball State (0-7) @ Eastern Michigan (0-6)
Tie breaker: UCLA (3-3) @ #22 Arizona (4-2)
I went back and looked at the contest for last year. Anlir only had five games plus a tie breaker. We have six this year. Oh, well. I have had fun trying to pick a winner among losers in the pillow fight. How about you?
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This fraud may be why the credit won’t be extended. They should have expected fraud and built in a mechanism to catch it right from the start. The credit helped here in NJ in the older towns.
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Football picks:
Brigham Young
LSU
Utah
Ohio State (Can my Buckeyes possibly play any worse than they did last week?)
West Virginia
Ball State
Tie breaker: Arizona 35, UCLA 21
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TCU, I think the Horned Toads ought to go all the way.
LSU, Even if I hate all tigers, I have to choose one here.
Utah, (don’t know why)
Ohio State. They will come back.
The Mountaineers have to take this.
Ball State has always been a powerhouse in eastern Indiana.
Ucla 7, Arizona 21
Gamecocks 21, Commodores 7.
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We forgot the Boilermakers over Illini.
Purdue comes alive.
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That Abbey Road article in the new issue of World is very interesting.
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BYU over TCU (’cause i had lunch with two BYU students yesterday)
Tigers (LSU) over Tigers (Auburn) (’cause LSU too tough at home)
Zoomies over Utah (’cause I’m tired of Orin Hatch and Utah whiners)
Gophers over Buckeyes (’cause I lived in Michigan, ’nuff said)
West Virginia over Uconn (’cause I flipped a coin)
Ball State over EMU (’cause I like their name)
UCLA 37 AU 31 (’just to annoy PeterL — with the outcome andthe use of improper UofA acronmym!
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Glad to hear that Travis Birkenstock (#14) reads the Bible and books like it.
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Brigham Young
LSU (sorry hubby)
Utah
Ohio State
West Virginia (5-1)
Eastern Michigan
Tie breaker: UCLA 13 @ #22 Arizona 6
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#11 – Jersey – I don’t like book burnings either. This just gives the anti-Christian set more fodder for their anti-Christian invective and an example to trot out to make all Christians look bad/stupid.
Hey Y’all! This pastor does not speak for all Christians, and he sure doesn’t speak for me.
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If the USC Trojans were playing ANY ranked team in the nation this Saturday, I would take SC. But since they are playing a fellow Pac-Ten unranked team, I’m not so sure.
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Well, KLasko, if you go to FoxNews, I believe, there is another article on books being banned in Chicago libraries, to wit, books that say a homosexual can change. I think those people are just as wrong.
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Big high 5 to Scott Robinson for linking that list to the military people who gave their lives in that bombing. I did note that there were some from my state of Rhode Island, although I did not know any of those servicemen……but the scar of that event is still part of me. I was serving in West Germany at the time in the air force, when we were notified of the entire theatre going to alert status. It was 1982 when the USAFE command center at Ramstein Air Base was bombed. Guess who did both?……………………….. yup, ole bin Laden’s gang.
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Joel Mark (#27),
It doesn’t matter if Travis reads the Bible. He is doomed to eternal torment because he lived in Michigan.
Or at least until Tressel steps down.
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NJ Lawyer, (post # 11) kudos to you for the link on the Bible burning in North Carolina. I cannot fathom how a church pastor considers Billy Graham and Mother Theresa as heretics! Sounds like this pastoral crackpot has been involved in Phariseeism for some time. To actually consider The King James as the only authoritative bible version is truly curious. I have seen some people in my home church become born-again because of a more understandable version than King Jimmy’s. WOW……..
I have heard it on The Bible Answerman radio broadcast that the King James version is not even the most reliable to the orginal manuscripts…….but that is another discussion for another time.
http://www.facebook.com/Justus331
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Re: The Beruit Memorial. Some listed as “died from wounds”. Same thing. My wife has a great uncle who died from wounds received at Antietam. They reckon that he was killed in the battle of Antietam.
So many list Jacksonville as home town. Jacksonville, NC is a small town, but it’s where Camp Lejune is located. These guys are likely not from there.
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“If it was good enough for Paul, it’s good enough for me.”
I am reading a book called The Man Who Moved A Mountain, about Bob Childress. I’m still in the rough-rounder, heavy drinking stage where he just lost lost his first wife. But I can tell from the reviews that he becomes a preacher.
But what I wanted to comment on concerns the book burning. No books burned, but this true story takes place in the Blue Ridge of SW Virginia. There in the early 1900’s, the preachers were proud of their ignorance. Their style of preaching was to wait till “The Lord told them to say something”. And then they started. Most of them couldn’t even read the Bible they were preaching from. Too much learning takes away from the leading of the Lord.
I wouldn’t take the book burning seriously. Nobody around here does. It’s two generations past.
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I was good, even though they didnt ask for documentation, I sent it anyway, just for this reason. Alot of others wouldnt have.
So i sent a copy of the settlement with the 1040x and the 5045 I think it was.
They give you interest since April if you file amended. I got over 8k in July.
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#33 – Scott Robinson – Is that what I have to look forward to when my husband and I retire to MI? Yikes!
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Travis @#26- (’just to annoy PeterL — with the outcome andthe use of improper UofA acronmym!
[sic]
Careful annoying the judge. You just might find a mumsee-esque s’more if you win, only I will use more habanero juice than you care to swallow!
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THe KJV is “poetic” — the language is beautiful. But I found it interesting that a pastor would burn Bibles. Disagree with a version, sure, but burn them? Odd.
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Thorn, #37
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Having now lived in the state of MI for 2 years I can say it is a very scary place. I had no idea I am doomed for hell though.
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Jiller,
It depends where you live in Michigan. Roscommon is a pretty good place (up near Houghton Lake). I knew about Hell, MI but never went there.
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Thorn’s talking about the first time homebuyer’s credit. Congratulations on the purchase of your new home. That’s what I would have done, too.
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The article about the Bible-burning so-called pastor Marc Grizzard says there are 14 members of his church (including him no doubt). Nice to know that ignorance does not attract too many lemmings. The church where I serve has about 200 members and never makes the news.
Man bites dog.
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Yeah, sorry for not clarifying that better. I closed in July and got the credit in about 6 weeks later…with interest. It really doesnt ask for proof though. Just fill out the proper docs.
So thats the IRS’s fault if they have to do alot of extra work now. Maybe they planned it that way.
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THIS JUST IN …
… this just in.
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When people talk about censorship of books usually it is a liberal talking about Christians censoring books. No one talks about the books liberals censure.
Like in the case of Palin censoring a book? Thomas1 knows all about that one. Oops brought Palin up again.
Anyone got a lead on Palin vs the Librarian thing?
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People censure the Bible from schools and control what a child wants to talk about in his book report. Talk about phobic. “My child might be influenced.” What are you afraid of?
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You should read some of the Young Adult books in the libraries. They are so depressing. No wonder so many of them in high school wear black and look like they are on drugs.
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In July 2005, Scott Horton interviewed Robert Pape, author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism.
Pape concludes that suicide terrorism is primarily motivated by military occupation rather than hatred of Western values by Islamic Fundamentalists.
This is all the more striking given that Pape began his research with the assumption that the latter was true. (I.e., he agreed with the Neoconservatives/American Exceptionalists.) The facts changed Pape’s mind — especially the fact that Muslims are involved in only about half of all suicide attacks worldwide.
In support his point that suicide terrorism is primarily motivated by military occupation, Pape notes that, once an occupation is ended, terrorist organizations have been unable to maintain a campaign of suicide bombing, even if they want to to accomplish other goals such as establishing fundamentalist Islam in political power.
Thus, while an occupation is present, the suicide bombings continue — once the occupation is ended, so do the bombings.
So something can be done about suicide terrorism by democratic countries: They can withdraw their troops from other people’s territory.
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Hey, just a note to those posting links and saying something like, “This just in from Fox News, and it will change the way we live from now on” or “This is the most scary news story I’ve ever seen”–I personally never, ever, click on a link without knowing what the story is about, and I’m probably not alone. (Occasionally I’ll go back and do so if four or five posters say, “Wow, that link in post 43 was really amazing.” But usually I don’t do so unless one of them says something more about it.)
You might find a column about baseball fascinating, but it won’t mean anything to me. So please, tell us minimally, “This is a bill being proposed by Democrats in Congress, and it looks like it will ration health care for seniors” or “this is a humorous column about bad weather in Arkansas” or that it’s the best column Willam Raspberry ever wrote . . . just something that gives some idea of whether it’s worth leaving this site to go read it.
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Looks like a good project for the homeschooled student.
Building your own solar panels and wind turbine.
http://www.greendiyenergy.com/indexcd2.php
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Frank #52
Which came first, occupation of Iraq or blowing up the towers in NY?
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Regarding the recent White House attacks on conservative critics, including Fox News & the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, this Politico column notes that it’s all making some moderate Democrats pretty worried as well (as it should):
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28638.html
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Sarah should thumb her nose at Republicans.
She got no support from them.
Which goes to show why someone should be “vetting” out those people who work or volunteer in the Rep. camp.
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As well they should be worried Donna #56 as the old saying goes…
They came for my neighbor and I said nothing, now they are coming for me and there is no one left to speak. (not the exact words but you know what can happen)
Just like the gangs who offer businesses in their neighborhood “protection”.
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Ditto to CherylD @ 53
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Thorn #46
Is that kind of like having to show ID to VOTE?
Why don’t the Dems want people to show ID?
I’m sure one of the groups under ACORN can make IDs for people.
People need IDs. This is another way for ACORN to help people.
Has ACORN dropped off the radar?
Has the O-meister told the press to lay off ACORN?
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Speaking of banning the Bible, yesterday Micheal Medved was talking about a 10 year old who took his Bible to recess and he and some others had a discussion on what they were reading in the Bible. Basically it sounded like a volunteer Bible club of sorts. The principal forbade them from doing so. What is wrong with this? In the land of the free we cannot voluntarily use recess period to talk about the Bible with willing friends?
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#2 in a series of “meditations” on the book Staring at the Sun by existentialist psychiatrist Irvin Yalom.
He argues that knowledge of our mortality is the mental health “problem” that throws many people into mental “illness” and turmoil. His book describes how he, as an atheist, has tried to respond to these issues for patients and for himself.
Ultimately, then, mental illness in many cases is not an “illness” similar to flu, or cancer, or heart disease, but a philosophical problem: how do I cope with the knowledge that I will die?
“Depression,” for example, may be the result of unfortunate genes, or a biochemical imbalance, or an unhealthy lifestyle, or it may be the result of thinking, “Hey, I am going to die and there is no meaning or purpose to my life.”
In some cases, an effective treatment may be using drugs such as “anti-depressants.” In some cases, these drugs may have side effects. An occasional side effect of anti-depressants is that some patients become more likely to commit suicide than less likely. It is as if a treatment for heart disease once in a while caused heart attacks.
For many people of the worldmagblog community, one solution to the depressing effect of mortality awareness is to believe in God and to believe that we have a soul that survives after the physical death of our body. Personally, I have never found this “solution” convincing.
Also, as with anti-depressants, there are occasional side effects to religious belief as a solution to despair over mortality. One side effect is that some religious believers display prejudices, such as excessive and irrational prejudices against homosexuals. Or an irrational and excessive on the part of the current web editor to “moderate” the comments of an atheistic visitor to wmb such as “Random Name.” These are minor side effects, as compared to major side effects, such as the desire to be a suicide bomber, a side effect seldom exhibited by conservative Christians, but more common among some conservative Muslims.
[Suicide bombing does, however, solve the problem of worrying about mortality. I think might be referred to as hanging oneself with a Gordian knot.]
In Chapter 4 of his book, Yalom discusses “The Power of Ideas.” He begins with the Greek philosopher Epicurus. Much of Epicurus’ actual writing is lost, so his thinking has to be inferred a bit from the works of other philosophers who commented on him.
#3
#3 in a series of “meditations” on the book Staring at the Sun by existentialist psychiatrist Irvin Yalom.
As I mentioned in the last comment in this series, Yalom bases some of his thinking about how to deal with the distress of death awareness on the (most lost in their original form) the thinking of the Greek philosopher Epicurus.
Yalom says he finds the following three areas of Epicurus’ thinking helpful:
1. The mortality of the soul.
2. The ultimate nothingness of death.
3. The argument of symmetry.
As background, Yalom mentions that Epicurus disagreed with Socrates, who facing execution too comfort in belief in an afterlife. Socrates’ thinking (as reported by Plato) influenced later Christian thinking. I assume, as I presume Yalom does) that Christianity is based on human thinking and not on the “Word of God.”
Chas mentioned the other day, as do other people from time to time that my presence and participation at worldmagblog is based on my “seeking” what Christians have. As I mention from time to time, no one really knows what another human being really feels, and the words and behavior of the Christians at wmb do not convey to me confidence and certainty about their claims that will experience another life after death. In any case, if you are confident, good on you as they say in Australia. If you are not, then you can secretly read my comments and no one will ever know you are pondering other ways of dealing with death.
#4
#4 in a series of meditations on Chapter 4 of Staring at the Sun a book by existential psychiatrist Irvin Yalom. If you are reasonably secure about your belief in life after death as taught by Christianity, there may be no reason to read these comments. On the other hand, if you are morbidly curious about how atheists cope with death, you may find this series interesting.
Yalom begins with Greek philosopher Epicurus, who argued that nothing survives our body after we die. If we don’t die, then there is nothing to fear about death he argues.
Many people at wmb believe in Heaven and Hell. Some are appalled or disbelieving in Hell and think people who don’t believe in the Trinity, just are obliterated. I am fairly compatible with that variation of Christianity, except I don’t believe in Heaven either and don’t know if Christ existed or not and if he did, I don’t believe he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead.
#5
#5 in a series of meditations on Chapter 5 of Staring at the Sun a book on existential psychiatrist Irvin Yalom. Yalom’s suggestions for dealing with the idea of death is thin gruel indeed compared to the glorious fantasy of believing in Heaven and Hell, so I am not sure why you are still reading my comments, though if you are you can post a comment saying you are not reading my comments.
I will finish up with Yalom’s summary of the thoughts of Greek philosopher Epicurus. #2 is the ultimate nothingness of death. If there is nothing, there is nothing to worry about.
#3 is Symmetry. We don’t exist before we are born; we don’t exist after we die. It all comes out in the wash.
See? Nothing to it. Though there’s more. Tune in tomorrow for less is more. More or less.
#6 In a series of meditations on Staring at the Sun, a book by existentialist psychiatrist Irvin D. Yalom. Certainly, the ideas Yalom presents are slim pickings compared to the joy of imagining an imaginary Heaven and an imaginary deity, but that’s what we atheists settle for as we peck at the empty shells under the Bible bird feeder the way the atheist chipmunks do under our bird feeder when the “baffle” blocks them from getting up to where the chickadees (Protestant birds) and the finches (Catholic birds) are enjoying Heaven (a feeder full of black sunflower seeds). So I am fairly certain all the content conservative Christians of worldmagblog are ignoring these comments.
After talking about dead Greek philosopher Epicurus, Yalom introduces the idea of “rippling.” He suggests that people’s good deeds and good actions ripple out through other lives likes waves rippling through a pond.
Although my wife and I came from unhappy families, we tried to create a happy family. So far our daughter (Mama) and her partner (Mommy) seem to have rippled into a happy family with their five year old child with two mommies and two daddies. If Random Granddaughter sometime creates a happy family (with how many mommies and daddies only Heaven knows), the ripples continue.
Also, the other day, I explained to RG how to split a cookie. “One person splits it; the other person gets to choose which half to take,” I said.
“That’s socialism Grandpa,” said RG. I think somebody from wmb has been rippling with my granddaughter. Fortunately, she has had her swine flu shots, so she may be immune to swine.
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Oops. I copied to much into posting a comment. Boy will I keep Satan busy punishing me for all my sins. Oh, well, you know what they say, “Idle Hands are the devil’s tools.”
I would not want the devil’s hands to be idle.
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#61 by David L is an interesting comment that raises stimulating questions.
For example, is ten years for a child to become an evangelist?
Are Christians being persecuted if a child cannot proselytize at recess?
If I get my granddaughter to speak to her fellow kindergartners and get their parents to vote for Washington’s domestic partnership iniative, should her teacher prohibit her from lobbying at recess. (She already told me “recess” is her favorite part of kindergarten and that “sitting still” was her least favorite part of kindergarten.)
Remember, if you live in Washington (as one, perhaps two of you do), “Vote Yes on No.”
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TCU (good defense tops good offense)
LSU (can’t lose two home games in a row)
AF (upset special)
OSU (home will be sweet after last week)
WVU (emotional game for UConn, but WV very tough at home)
BS (on a hunch)
UCLA 23, UA 20 (should be close, but again give the edge to better defense over better offense)
Gambling on the visitors this week!
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PETER L. #61
The answer is NO!
Just as it is not ok for anyone to disagree with Obama from major news media to individuals. WARNING: Do not disagree.
Remember Obama’s stimulus. Didn’t Obama come out and state something like, “Who are you going to agree with Rush or ME?”
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Well, let’s see what else is going on at wmb today. However, I wll say first that I am pleased that Mickey and I shrank back from the brink of all-out war. Mickey will be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his fine work in maintaining peace at worldmagblog.
Next week he and I will take a whirled wind tour of Iran and North Korea to take care of their infatuation with nuclear weapons.
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No, but it’s ok for teachers to teach about Islam in the classroom. Oh, that’s right, they can do that in the name of culture. Do they also teach about the bloodshed in forcing Islam on people in different countries?
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News – why should they teach that? They obviously haven’t been teaching the atrocities of Mao if so many of our political elite admire him.
Pretty soon our political elite will be Islamic jihadists, admiring Osama for all that he’s done.
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Random @#64- I think you need glasses. #61 was mine, not David L’s post.
But no, ten is not too young to be an evangelist. All Christians are evangelists whether that is their occupation or not.
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NEWS2ME (55): Which came first, occupation of Iraq or blowing up the towers in NY?
FRANK: Do you even realize how big a non sequitur that is?
• The majority of the 9/11 terrorists were … Saudis.
• At the time of the 9/11 attacks, our forces were in … Saudi Arabia.
• Osama openly declared that one of the primary reasons behind the 9/11 attacks was the presence of our “infidel” military in his “holy land” — you guessed it, Saudi Arabia again.
Of course, suicide bombings in Iraq were virtually unheard of, until the “coalition of the willing for a price” invaded and occupied … Iraq.
Care to rethink your question?
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No.
Are we at war with Saudi Arabia? Why are we there?
Is it Bushes fault? If so, why hasn’t Obama spoken of the “occupation” of Saudi Arabia?
So what does “virtually unheard of” mean when you speak of suicide bombings?
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NEWS2ME (72): Are we at war with Saudi Arabia?
FRANK: No … in case you hadn’t heard, we invaded Afghanistan first, because the Taliban there had given aid and comfort to Bin Laden and Al Qaida, the guys who hit us on 9/11.
OTOH, we invaded Iraq “while we were in the neighborhood,” for reasons having nothing to do with 9/11. Rather, it was alleged that Saddam Hussien had WMD, and/or he had reconstituted his WMD program, which allegedly posed a grave threat to the US and the world.
Which was utter Bravo Sierra. We didn’t attack Iraq because they were strong (and an ostensible threat), we attacked them because they were weak — low-hanging fruit — a quick little victory to give the US global credibility in the “war on terr” [sic]. (How’d that work for ya, Gee-Dub?)
NEWS2ME (72): … why hasn’t Obama spoken of the “occupation” of Saudi Arabia?
FRANK: Umm, he did. After the 9/11 attacks.
Of course, just before we invaded Iraq, we withdrew our military forces from … Saudi Arabia!
Do you suppose that could explain why Bin Laden doesn’t mention our presence there anymore?
(I think I’m beginning to understand the meaning behind your WMB screen name: “Gee, that’s news to me …” )
NEWS2ME (72): So what does “virtually unheard of” mean when you speak of suicide bombings?
FRANK: Like I said: “Of course, suicide bombings in Iraq were virtually unheard of, until the “coalition of the willing for a price” invaded and occupied … Iraq.”
This shouldn’t be a particularly difficult line of reasoning to follow:
• The presence of US military forces in Saudi Arabia (although non-occupating/non-belligerent) motivated Saudis to suicidally attack the US.
• After withdrawing from Saudi Arabia, we invade and occupy Iraq, and suddenly there are suicide bombings in Iraq — where there were none before.
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Sorry, didn’t mean to shout … html FAIL again …
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Great…another pointless argument.
There were no suicide bombings necessary in Iraq before the war…the terrorists were in charge. Ask the Kurds how peaceful it was…
Why are we still drumming the “no WMD” drum? Endless arguments from people who have no clue…and a strong refusal to listen to the people who lived there, who all say there WERE WMD…
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Friends,
FYI — Dr. Gregg Frazer sent me the following note re Ken’s comments on yesterday’s Whirled Views on King George, the American Founders & rebellion. Dr. Frazer wrote:
Ken is quite correct that in its IMMEDIATE context, the “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft” passage refers to rebellion against God. But in the broader context of Scripture, rebellion against authority IS rebellion against God. That is precisely what Paul says in Romans 13:2 – “he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God.”
It wasn’t the place of the writers of the Declaration of Independence to officially declare King George to be in rebellion against God – that is for God to determine. They can give their opinion, of course, but it is God’s opinion that counts. It was their opinion that George was in rebellion against God – but not sufficient basis for the sin of rebellion.
Re the leaders of the American Revolution: it is irrelevant whether or not those leaders “sensed a divine rightness to their efforts.” Nearly everyone engaged in a monumental conflict thinks God is on their side. Hitler thought God was on his side – confirmed, he thought, by the failed assassination attempt. The Japanese thought their attack on Pearl Harbor was doing God’s will. So did the Egyptians and the Romans and on and on …. What matters is whether there IS a divine rightness to efforts – not whether those involved SENSE such a rightness. Since we have direct revelation from God that rebellion is not right – at least without God Himself raising up a deliverer – we would need direct revelation from God telling us that He had appointed such a deliverer to do what He’s otherwise prohibited.
As for the Old Testament examples of rebellion, GOD may decide to remove a ruler’s authority and that it’s time for a ruler to fall – but WE are not given such a right anywhere in Scripture. Sometimes God used deliverers HE raised up for such a purpose; sometimes God used the sinful actions of common men; sometimes God used “natural” methods (such as a worm) – but that is God’s call, not ours. There are lots of things that God “permitted” in Scripture, but that doesn’t justify them. He allowed Lot’s daughters to sleep with him; he allowed Adam & Eve to eat the pomegranate; he allowed Judas to betray Christ – I trust that Ken would not suggest that those actions were justified nonetheless.
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Seems that everyone suffers discrimination. From the Washington Times, Former Gays “are demanding that the Walt Disney Company cover former homosexuals in company policies that forbid disctrimination against employees.”
“Former homosexuals who come out publicly are commonly targeted for ridicule and hate”, complains the group.
I don’t understand the problem at all, I really don’t.
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From a report by the Herative Foundation:
“The White House’s mid-session budget review recently forecast that President Barack Obama’s budget would create $9 trillion in new budget deficits over the next decade. This is on top of our existing debt, and more debt than America accumulated from 1789 through 2008 combined!
But it gets worse. The White House conveniently did not include the costs of a cap-and-trade system, the costly health care reform bill, extending “expiring” entitlements, as well as expenses incurred on the interest of the debt and more realistic interest rates. A more realistic budget deficit number would be $13 trillion over the next decade – making for a grand total of $20 trillion in national debt by 2019, which is nearly 100 percent of our gross domestic product (GDP). To put it into perspective, that’s more than $37,000 spent per household in 2019, compared with $25,000 per household in 2008.”
However, if the dollar becomes worthless, the debt becomes worthless. Every dollar you own is worthless and the country then belongs to it’s rightful owners.
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By: Stephen Dinan,
The Washington Times
The White House has told Congress it will reject calls for many of President Obama’s policy czars to testify before Congress — a decision senators said goes against the president’s promises of transparency and openness and treads on Congress’ constitutional mandate to investigate the administration’s actions.
Sen. Susan Collins, Maine Republican, said White House counsel Greg Craig told her in a meeting Wednesday that they will not make available any of the czars who work in the White House and don’t have to go through Senate confirmation. She said he was “murky” on whether other czars outside of the White House would be allowed to come before Congress.
Miss Collins said that doesn’t make sense when some of those czars are actually making policy or negotiating on behalf of Mr. Obama.
(long article about this. Doesn’t look good.)
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Chas
Interesting article – do you have the LINK?
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The simplistic platitude that rebellion against authority IS rebellion against God applies in some cases and not others. It’s not that simple in Scripture or in real life.
The church herself does not have as her main mission political rebellion or activism. Using the church for political reballion as if that is her main mission is wrong-headed. But Christians are legal citizens too and they have a right to participate in dissent and/or rebellion, in many various forms–depending on the context. Where one draws the line between dissent and rebellion is a subjective call. But a right understadnig of scripture does not lead to a mandate for some sweeping ban on all social or political dissent or rebellion on all believers in all circumstances.
Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt was more than dissent. It was a rebellion, a godly and just rebellion and God called Moses to lead it.
David respected Saul’s office as king but when David was de-throned, he allowed a civil war to dethrone his own son and get his throne back.
Jesus, on some occasions, rebelled against political, civic and religious aauthorities and they had the politica authority to have him killed unjustly for it.
The apostle Peter refused to submit to the command of the Sanhedrin to shut up.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer rose in rebellion against Hitler (even to articipate in an effort to assassinate him) and he did so rightly and bravely as a faithful man of God.
Martin Luther King, Jr, was a Christian who rebelled against laws and was in the right to do so.
There are Mao’s, Stalins, Hitlers and others in this world and God’s Word did not give Christians some free pass not to care or act on that concern to deal with such tyrannies.
I think that Christians have a legitimate option and even a responsibility in some cases to dissent and/or rebel in some ways against exploitative racism, oppression, tyranny, political deception, and injustice. In fact, unbelievers and others are harshly critical of Christians when they may fail to rise in the name of earthly justice.
While the earthly fate others is an acute concern for Christians, it is still not our main mission in the end to seek earthly justice. Our main mission remains the same: calling sinners to repentance and forgiveness of sins through Christ. Our ultimate citizenship is still in heaven. But the Bible allows for the role of the soldier (in fact it treats it honorably) and even the role of those in legitimate dissent of abusive authority.
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Here is a great quote that helps us get beyond simplistic dichotomies between earthly and heavenly concerns:
* “A continual looking forward to the eternal world is not a form of escapism or wishful thinking… If you read history, you will find that the Christians who did the most for the present world were just those who thought the most of the next.” C.S. Lewis. Book III, Chapter 10 (’Hope’) in Mere Christianity.
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Victoria, I don’t have links. The first, I copied from the Weekly edition that came today. p.8- The second from a link from Heritage. The last is from a Newsmax article that references the Times. You can probably get it by going to the Washington Times Or Newsmax. But all three originated with the WashTimes.
Lots of things going on that you don’t hear on the news.
(The last paragraph on #78 is my comment.)
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Heritage, if this works:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/budget/bg2249.cfm
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#81 Joel Mark,
That’s a good post on a subject that Christians have to be constantly cognizant of, in a democracy especially.
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NewsMax, if it works.
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/policy_czars_obama/2009/10/23/276120.html?s=al&promo_code=8F4D-1
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Victoria, “White House: Policy ‘czars’ won’t testify”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/oct/23/czar-war-escalates-between-congress-white-house/?feat=home_headlines
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Oops, CHAS, typing slowly tonight.
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Thanks Chas and Nana, it’s a good article on a topic that bears watching closely.
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Chas, what do you know about the DOJ insisting on party lablels on the ballots in Kinston, NC – ?
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DJ, so much to keep track of, I need more eyes, ears and brains!
……and faster fingers
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Among several comments yesterday about diabetes and pre-diabetes:
TJS Catlover:
Random: 3 times normal? So your level is in the 250-300 range? That’s pretty bad for a “pre-diabetic.” I was diagnosed with a fasting level of around 450, and they wanted me in the hospital yesterday. Of course, I was 15, almost 16, at the time, so maybe they cared about me more than a “grumpy old atheist.”
As I understand it, anyone who goes too far over 100 is not normal. When you start talking 150+, you need to take some action, unless you don’t want to get to your 50th anniversary.
Random: Make sure your hands are clean before you test. But you probably know that.
==============================
Today, I tested again, very carefully. With very clean hands.
At first, being a turnip brain I got several errors because of not enough blood. I switched to my middle finger, which may not be polite and may put me in trouble with Mickey, though I hope he will be distracted because of the possible pending Nobel Peace Prize award. I had to waste several test strips, putting health care out of reach for most people in Washington State once I refill my prescription.
After I got enough blood, making my bathroom look like a CSI set, my reading was 105. Which is creeping up, but not yet in the danger zone. I wiped up all the blood, tossed the needles in my needle container, and went to reward myself with my wife’s pancakes, with maple syrup, saying, “This may be the last time I can have this for breakfast.
TJS also said,
FYI, I’ve never watched Fox News in my life, IIRC.
Nor do I listen to anything on the radio except music.
Reading too many worldmagblog messages may cause high readings in something or other as well.
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My computer is slow, so when I did control end to come to bottom of the thread, I got News2Me’s #60 and burst out laughing! Thank you, News2Me.
Donna J in #56 provided a link to Politico. I found this quote of interest: “White House Communications Director Anita Dunn has defended the push, saying the administration made “a fundamental decision that we needed to be more aggressive in both protecting our position and in delineating our differences with those who were attacking us.”
The word that caught my attention was “attacking” — Since when is a difference of opinion, even a vehement difference of opinion, an attack? What an attitude for any White House to take.
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For those of you who were praying for little Shiloh – she passed away this afternoon. Please keep her family in your prayers.
Here’s the link for the news update; there probably will be more of a story in tomorrow’s Press Herald.
http://updates.mainetoday.com/updates/maine-girl-with-mermaid-syndrome-dies
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Mmacmurray
Heartbreaking – I’m praying for her family and loved ones.
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Without going into a lot of details I really would like to ask all of you to pray for me. Some things came out of left field today for me to deal with emotionally. Thanks. It is nice to know I can count on all of you to lift me up when I can’t.
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I have never heard of Shiloh’s problem before.
As for Kinston, it doesn’t get much press around here. That is another part of N.C. and the eastern and western parts don’t communicate. The west thinks that Raleigh gives the east all the money because you can get more miles per dollar when you build roads, etc. And I gather that the east still thinks we are hillbillies.
Also, though we have an Asheville station, we get most of our TV news from Greenville/Spartanburg.
The same type of thinking occurred in Virginia between Northern Va. and the rest of the state. Two different worlds.
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Kim, I will continue to pray for you. This “left field” business sounds like something you shouldn’t be dealing with. Send him/her/it back to left field. I know it’s hard not to think about. But think how it would be without them.
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My sympathies to Shiloh’s family. Some problems can’t be solved, but I know in her ten years that Shiloh created a lot of happy memories for her family to hold onto.
Kim, you know we love you and will pray for you for whatever you need.
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Random, glad to hear you’re not in imminent danger of a coma.
However, I’d be worried about what your blood was like after the syrup. 
About Epicurus’s idea of the ultimate nothingness of death: strange. If that’s what you believe about death, then I would think it should affect how you live. Epicurus, as I understand it, advocated a rather moderate form of hedonism: pleasure is the only thing that is good, and the most pleasure can be attained through the absence of pain, fear, and stress.
Is that really what y’all think? Then why be politically active, married, etc.? Epicurus himself never was, believing that these things led to stress and pain. It’s a bit ironic, actually, that he finally died painfully from kidney stones, IIRC.
However, I disagree with him. If pleasure is your only goal, I think a life of moderate asceticism would not be the answer. I’m thinking full-blown hedonism would be a better choice.
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NJL at #11: I don’t like book burnings. This bothers me.
It’s stupid of course, but I like the writer’s phrase “bonfire of the profanities.” That’s better writing than you see much in the media anymore.
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But, departing from Epicurus, I think believing that death, in the end, was nothing at all would have some consequences.
He argued that because there was nothing in the end, there is nothing to fear. I’m not so sure. I think “nothing” is itself something to fear, at least while you’re still alive. Non-existence is not easy, and may indeed not be possible, to truly contemplate. What we can gather is that it would mean life was meaningless, just as death is meaningless.
I further think that it is illogical to believe that death is nothing, and still live as if it were not. I notice that many atheists still choose to live as if there were a higher purpose in life. This “purpose” is always poorly defined. I’ve heard “brotherhood of man,” “evolutionary imperative,” “Nature,” “society,” etc. In the end, each of these falls flat. The ideas of atheism and a higher purpose are incompatible. There simply is no purpose: life was an accident as far as any atheist knows, and all societies will eventually burn. And yet, atheists still live as if they were accountable to someone. They will still check their impulses, obey laws, be “kind” or “loving,” even knowing that those ideas have no meaning. The final question is again the one I always ask: why? Come on, guys: you like to proclaim about how you’re “free” of religion and tradition: why aren’t you enjoying it? If you’re free, why do you still restrain yourselves?
I always think of Thanatopsis, by William Cullen Bryant, which tries (rather pitifully, IMO) to be cheerful while at the same time proclaiming things like this:
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Yes, it’s clever, SteveG, but the man is burning Bibles and Bibles are not profane just because they are not KJV. The guy’s got a problem.
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Dr. Frazer has actually dealt with most of the noodles Joel threw against the wall. I alerted him of JM’s post; don’t know if he will respond here.
In the meantime, I can cut and paste from some of Dr. Frazer’s replies to other folks making the same point. As he wrote on Exodus:
In the case of Moses, GOD sent the plagues which caused Pharaoh to let the people go – not Moses. Moses did not lead a revolutionary army. He spoke God’s words to Pharaoh and watched God work along with everyone else. Ultimately, he didn’t even disobey, but rather obeyed Pharaoh’s command to take the Israelites and leave (Exodus 12:31-32).
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Here is Frazer on David and Saul:
Regarding [Frazer's interlocutor's] comparison between the Saul/David situation and the Othniel situation and your conclusion that it is as “simple” as God saying He wouldn’t listen to Israel when they cried out for deliverance from Saul: if these were the only two passages in Scripture, that “simple” explanation might fly as representative of the Old Testament record. But they’re not the only passages and uprooting them from the context of the rest of the Old Testament record can lead to faulty views such as this. For example, there are plenty of tyrants in the history of Israel after Saul who are not removed despite pleas from the people. If it’s as “simple” as you’ve made it, God should have interceded on behalf of all of the others. Also, God does not only recognize kings of Israel (His people) who’ve gone through a special anointing ceremony to be His “anointed.” Romans 13 says that all rulers are “ministers of God” and “servants of God.” And God refers to pagan civil rulers as His “servants,” His “shepherds,” and His “anointed” (see e.g. Jeremiah 25:9; 27:6; 43:10; Isaiah 44:28; 45:1). So, what applied to David re Saul applies to all civil rulers AS FAR AS TAKING OUR OWN INITIATIVE IS CONCERNED. GOD may remove a ruler or even raise up a deliverer to remove a ruler or use the sinful rebellion of people to remove a ruler – but we have no authority or permission to do so on our own initiative. It isn’t up to us to decide, but rather God. You talk of having “a time to have the Spirit come upon you” — as if that were up to you to generate. As if you were in control of the Spirit of God!!! God can send His Spirit; God can raise up a deliverer; God can determine that it’s time for a tyrant to fall – but that doesn’t mean we can or that we can simply decide that we are such deliverers!
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Jesus, on some occasions, rebelled against political, civic and religious aauthorities and they had the politica authority to have him killed unjustly for it.
I’ll let Gregg handle this if he choses. It’s my understanding that Jesus never rebelled against or resisted authorities but got in trouble with them because he refused to stop claiming He was who He was. Indeed when it came time to execute Jesus, He submitted to the civil legitimacy of the punishment, that is, He did not partake in the sin of rebellion against the authority of his executors to execute Him.
If Jesus resisted the authorities of his executioners, He would not have been the sinless lamb of God He claimed to be.
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The apostle Peter refused to submit to the command of the Sanhedrin to shut up.
Acts 5:29: Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!”
This deals with disobedience NOT submission. The one time Christians are permitted to disobey civil authorities is when need to avoid committing a sin to do so. But still, disobey all you need to, you must still submit to government’s authority over you. That means, break the civil law, and accept the legitimacy of the punishment like a true Christian. This is true Christian civil disobedience.
As Dr. Frazer wrote:
The real problem, though, is in conflating disobedience and rebellion. In one paragraph, you’re talking about a basis for disobedience and in the next, you’re talking about rebellion. Do you not recognize a difference between them? I agree, as I said above, that Christians should not OBEY an order which commands disobedience to God (Acts 5:29), but that does not legitimize REBELLION — whether led by a lower magistrate or not.
Throughout Scripture, the same principle can be seen: we must obey the government unless/until it commands disobedience to God; then, we must disobey, but REMAIN IN SUBJECTION (that is, still recognize the government’s authority) — usually by taking the punishment. That’s why Shadrach & his pals went into the fiery furnace and Daniel went into the lion’s den and why Paul wrote Romans 13 from jail! There are, however, NO examples of rebellion approved by God in Scripture. I’m sorry you didn’t like my comments re the Exodus, but I thought it relevant because it WAS referenced by the Founders, unlike your Interposition theory.
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I disagree with Dr. Frazer, Jon Rowe–at least with your descriptions of his views. Arguments are only “noodles” if you cannot respectfully or adequately deal with them.
It does not change my point to say that God sent the plagues. God clearly used Moses in the rebellious and defiant process of delivering the Israelites from political slavery and tyranny.
One of my points had to do with David and Absalom, not necessarily David and Saul.
I have read and studied all those biblical accounts for myself and it strains them too thin, in my view, to deprive them of their plain meaning in order to fit them into an agenda that calls for some universal legalistic ban on all Christians from any political rebellion or defiance or perhaps even dissent in all cases.
As Christians, we are not stuck in legalistic ruts for all cases and all times. We follow principles and apply them to real life as best we can–just as they did in the Scriptures. The best we can do is to honestly learn as we go.
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It was Jesus stated mission to die on the cross. That was God’s plan for him and Jesus was submitting more to God the Father than men. He could have defied them if that had been God’s will, but it wasn’t.
Jesus lived in a theocratic culture and when he defied authorities in the Temple, quite rebelliously, he was defying the ruling authorities of his time and culture sure enough.
With Jesus as our model, we see that there are times and circumstances for total submission to governing authorities and there are times for total defiance. He did not operate on some over-arching ban or mandate. He applied principles of God’s will to the need of the moment faithfully.
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Jon wrote; “This deals with disobedience NOT submission.”
I see no moral or consequential discinction here. This seems to be a false dichotomy. To dosobey is to refuse to submit and to refuse to submit is to disobey–total compatibility.
Jon wrote; “The one time Christians are permitted to disobey civil authorities is when need to avoid committing a sin to do so.”
This is always the reason we would ever be permitted to disobey civil authorities.
Accepting the punishment may well be our fate for not submitting or not obeying civil authorities, but that does not speak to the notion of whether Christians should or should not do it in the first place.
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Thanks for the prayers tonight. I am going to bed with the hope that tomorrow will be better….
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#100 and #102
TJS
These are serious issues, and I have no brilliant or overwhelming answer. As I’ve said, reading worldmagblog for several years has convinced me that I am a nihilist.
I’ve said, just said it again a few threads downstream from here, I think morals/ethics arise from physical evolution and from cultural evolution. Also, I think sociobiology provides a fairly persuasive explanation of what motivates human beings: “We are genes in tight jeans.” That is, we are strongly driven to have children and to care for them and to regard them as little ways to achieve “immortality.”
If a little copy/projection of myself lives on, than my knowledge of my own mortality is assuaged and alleviated a bit.
I came from an unhappy family, as did my wife. We did not plan to have children, but when we did have a child we put a lot of energy and thought into caring for her and turning her into a decent human being.
Although I did not get along very well with my parents, they did instill a lot of values into me. Although I have a lot of criticism of my society, I also support and embody many of its values. I “suffer” from empathy; I don’t like to see other people suffer, so I avoid making them suffer most of the time. I am a shy and introverted person, and fairly cautious, so I tend to avoid the more dangerous aspects of nihilistic behavior as too risky for me.
I am a late bloomer, so it didn’t occur to me to turn my society into a nation of slaves obeying my every wish and fantasy a la Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot until I was unlikely to be able to pull it off.
However, the world, past and present, is full of many examples of selfish, destructive, nihilistic behavior. I don’t think people are born of virgins or rise from the dead, so I don’t think the Bible is “true.” Also, although Christianity is not by any means the worst system in history’s annals, it is by no means free of murder and cruelty and selfishness.
Also, Christians seem to adopt their beliefs for a variety of reasons besides desire to live forever and desire to see good rewarded and wickedness punished. Another reason, I suspect, is the thought, without a God who creates a reason to exist, existence is too horrible to contemplate.
As I said in my other comment tonight, I describe my attitude as “Cheerful Despair.”
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By the way,
What does TJS stand for?
How do you feel about dogs?
What flavor of Christian are you?
None of this is my business, so only answer if you feel like it.
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133: TJS stands for my name. It’s my initials.
I love dogs too.
I think I prefer cats in general though… just don’t tell my dog.
Flavor of Christian? Like, denomination? I used to attend a Free Methodist church when I was young. I’ve mentioned before that the church I attend now claims no specific Protestant denomination. I’m not Calvinist. In all honesty, I’ve done practically no research into Protestant denominations: I have no idea which one I identify most closely with. Many of them have only extremely trivial differences anyway.
I’m not a liberal Christian though. The only real differences I can think of that I have from general evangelical conservative (fundamentalist?)Protestant thought are that I tend to believe Old-earth Creationism and a non-eternal Hell. Or, so I think. As I said, very little research into different Protestant denominations and their various beliefs. Oh, and I play D&D, read Harry Potter, and have gone trick-or-treating. I accept that some people have issues with some of that, but I don’t.
In the end, the fact that I’m Christian is enough, or should be.
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Oh, that should have been 113. I’m not a prophet.
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Oh, man! I missed the perfect opportunity to simply say that I’m “mango” flavored, or something.
In actuality, my views have largely come from me, my reading the Bible, talks with my parents, and a few studies I’ve done: not so much my denomination.
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Kim @ 111, your post reminded me of that quote, “Sometimes courage is the still quiet voice at the end of the day saying ‘I will try again tomorrow’.”
Praying for you.
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